What Bitcoin Did - THE BITCOIN TROJAN HORSE W/ ERIK CASON

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Erik Cason is a Bitcoin OG and author of Crypto Sovereignty. In this episode, we discuss the philosophy of Bitcoin, it's role in preserving freedom and resisting censorship, its parallels to historical moments of change, and its potential to reshape societal structures. We also get into its connection with cryptography and tools like Nostr, and why he believes Bitcoin represents a shift in the balance of power. MASSIVE THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: IREN: https://www.iren.com/ RIVER: https://river.com/wbd CASA: https://casa.io/ LEDGER: https://www.ledger.com/

What does it mean to speak free? What does it mean to have no censorship? What does it mean to be able to connect with those anywhere in the world that you choose to commune with? And yeah, I think that that's going to create for a profound unraveling of the old system. And while that's terrifying, the bloom of the new system excites me more. And that's been the biggest thing in the last two years that's really transformed for me is getting that as dark as everything else is, the light that's shining and growing

is more powerful and profound. And so, like, there's a way to get out of this darkness without it just being a complete cluster fuck. We've started, by the way, Eric. Like this, this book, like, when I first read it, it's like the second or third to last in, like, Ambigan's entire series of Homo Secur. It's called The Remnants of Auschwitz.

the witness in the archive. And like I was in like a catatonic depression for like two months after reading. Because it's just so fucking horrific. And like this is part of his entire concourse of philosophical projection around and who I marry up very much with my own philosophy called homo sacer. Who in Latin that means the forsaken man. And so anybody in Roman legal law was labeled as homo succor because they had, forsaken the gods. And because like Roman law and the gods were like a single thing. Okay. So like the Roman Republic was like the representatives of God on earth. And like that's

very much how they saw themselves. And that's really important because like the Roman Republic was also called res publica, which means like the public thing. Because the way that the Romans understood and viewed their own law was like this is the reality of what it is and the gods. have legitimized us and empowered us directly. So like if you forsake the gods, now you're outside the protection of Roman legal protection. And for the more like if you're a good Roman citizen, you should like fucking kill forbidden people.

Like they're not, they forsook the gods. And like you as a good Roman citizen have an obligation to the gods to kill them. So Ambigin, who's a student of Heidegger's, and is my opinion like one of the only philosophers on the planet still, who actually is fucking.

brilliant. He has this, I think it's a nine-part series called Homosoccur, which starts with a book titled Homosoccur, which is about who and what this forsaken man is. But he like traces through the concourse of human history of like who are these people that have always been like put outside of society and forsaken. And so this book, the remnants of Auschwitz specifically about, is about like the 20th century and like who were these people that were killed in genocide and like eradicated from existence and who like we don't even have documents of who and when and how they existed and why they died and that's like part of a projection of human history that we can never actually know there's just been like you know untold millions of people that have just been

fucking systematically eradicated for the very real existence that they have and so like how does that tie back into bitcoin with the historicity of bitcoin and the time chain and the provability of of like if we put data in there, it will never, ever be erased. Like, that fundamentally transforms all of human history. And yes, I know, like, now we're going to get, like, well, actually, you can put false information in there. And it's like, it's not about what's true or false in the same way that it's, like, not about censorship at all.

It's about being able to get that information there, and you can't take it away. And, like, that's what's so important that Ambigan's, like, pedantic about, the archival process of genocides and why it's so important to understand what happened. Because, like, he has a great passage in here that's like, if you were truly able to, like, see the historicity of man, it's like looking at a medusa. Like, you're,

you are frozen and petrified in the absolute horror of, like, what the truth really is. Just quickly, will you explain what historicity means? Because you just did to me before we start recording, but I'm sure there's people who are listening that don't know what that word is. Yeah, yeah. So historicity is a specific philosophical term for history as it actually was, as opposed to history as it is presented. And like, because we'll probably be talking about philosophy, there's like a bunch of super pedantic terms that I get from Heidegger that are infuriating. And so I was telling Danny before, like part of what kicked me off on my own Bitcoin journey.

Before I was like even orange-pilled all the way, I was just like, there's clearly something really important about Bitcoin that like I don't understand. And there's been like really smart people throughout human history that have tried to think about stuff like this before. So like, what do I got on my bookshelf? And I had one book on Nietzsche. And I had this other book by Martin Heidegger, the question concerning technology. And I remember like trying to start reading it and just being like, like, fuck this guy. Like what the fuck is he talking? Like he's like making up all these words and he's like speaking in this way that's infuriated.

Fuck him. Lo and behold, like a decade later, like in the conclusion of my own book Crypto Sovereignty, this essay, the question concerning technology is like the key essay from my entire book that like when I first started being like I can't understand any of this to then it was like, oh, like this. This is like part of the key answer, which I sort of address in my own. esoteric way in crypto sovereignty and sort of addressing what the essence of technology is and how and why Bitcoin, like, is of the preeminence of importance of trying to understand, like, what technological essence itself is. I love that the sort of final arc of that story is you writing your own book and making up a load of words. You know, and like the, like, every time, like, I published that, like, right when I agreed to publish that book, I, like, went through my separate. which was like my own dark night of the soul. And like through me doing my own dark night of the soul,

I was like forced to go out in the world and like meet at this point thousands of bitcoins who like from them seeing and recognizing and sort of celebrating my work really pulled me out of that dark night of the soul and really be able to step into sort of my own power around this that as you've pointed out, I've been sort of resentful and angry about because I didn't want any of this. And now as I'm getting deeper into it, it's like I've been rewarded so many times over and over. And I'm seeing and understanding something in a very unique and special way that people are celebrating. It's really asking me to actually raise myself to the task of like, what does that mean to engage in all of this and to take it seriously?

And like before getting on here with you, I rewatched Ross Ulbert. Eric's talk from the Bitcoin conference in 2021 and just really let it resonate with me. Like, what does it mean to be free and what does it mean to be responsible towards this technology and know and understand the radical power that it offers to humanity? And like, what is our responsibility towards that? This is why I love talking to Eric, because there's no bullshit. You just cut straight to the chase. I remember when we were hanging out in Sydney, I walked into a bar.

seen you for a little while. And the first thing you said to me was something like, do you think Bitcoin's a tool for enlightenment and has transcended you to a different level of consciousness or something? And I was just like, hey Eric. You're like, let's go. And I just love that there's no fucking around. But you've talked quite a lot about this, that you feel there's a real mission for you in Bitcoin. And like you said just before, previously when we've spoken, you've always resented that. But you were saying before we recorded this show that you're going to step into that now. So what does that actually mean for you? Boy. Well, one is, is that like, so I think I've told you about, like one of my very close friends, he was, he was one of the

senior architects of the Bitkey project and like is a forerunner expert in Frost Cryptography. Well, it seems like him and I are going to probably work on our own company and project that has something to do. Like, it's still pretty esoteric and we're forming it, but it has to do, like with collaborative custody, multi-sig, using Frost, like new methodologies of securing Bitcoin, really a step beyond collaborative custody because of the way that it's going to use, what's the term that I want, like degrading signatures over time, there's a word for this. Okay, like miniscript stuff. Yeah, but specifically using Frost instead of minisccript for a variety of reasons.

because also like the key set of Frost could actually like work in Noster and there's like a full stack of pretty interesting stuff to be done with that. So and this is also on the other side of that. Me and Kiwihold have been talking about a while for really trying to like start a physical space where like we can run weekly or monthly workshops like with Bitcoinsers because like you know the vibe. Like getting together with people in person is so much more important. And there's like this profound synergy that's, uh, frankly like transformative and so like we want that space and from talking with like people that have gone through sovereign engineering and other programs like this like everybody is really hungry to get this environment that's similar to the vibe that we get at a conference but like make it

smaller and more intimate for high signal and like make it a longer thing and like none none of these like constant 30 minute talks but instead like true university style discussions where uh there's like a symposium of different experts talking and sort of leading discussions about like what are we doing why is this important like how do we make this better you know and so we want to call it sovereign university uh i was looking at buying a like camping retreat that's like pretty close to my house out here in the woods like on i think you told me a little bit about this yeah and like that place went into escrow but then like i serendipitously there's like another place that's even better and cheaper and like more complicated but uh i don't know and it's been really weird of that like the more

i've like put my hands in this and dove into it like the more that there's just sort of these insane like serendipities that come up uh that like i don't i don't really know how to explain they're like too coincidental to be coincidences at all uh and like that's happened so many times over my life that like it's uh it's like if i didn't have like more woo-woo stuff going on i'd find it like really scary and spooky um so leaning in is like taking real responsibility of that like i sincerely believe that bitcoin is this glorious gift from god and like as god's representative on earth satoshi is this like invisible human who very much and like he and this also marries up with all of my philosophy like Satoshi represents

like this aminant other this uh as Emmanuel Levinaas another person in my concourse of philosophy in totality and infinity he he says something very similar in lines of the other is he who I cannot have any control over and like for Levinaas the idea of an ethics of you like honoring the other and so far of that like the ethical question of if you would harm or kill them like is never on the table like you must allow for their existence before your own because like that that's where philosophy itself starts is with that ethical assertion and uh i've read it through once and i and i've like read excerpts from it before but always in the introduction of totality and infinity levinas starts with the question of like is war in an inevitable condition of humanity

And like, is there actually a possibility of a life that is outside of the totality of war? And I believe yes. And that's why this sort of eminent other, who I believe like is the Anon and people like Satoshi who utilize perfect forward secrecy in such a way to sort of shield them from the totality of the apparatus of the Panopticon. like they're the ones that are birthing a totally new world for us. And it is only through like their love towards us and our love towards them that the possibility of this world unfolds. Like I was actually, because I've realized part of my writing process too is like I will just like smoke a blunt and get really high. And then I get, well, and it's crazy. Like I just get these inspirational things that come and write.

And that's literally where all of my essays and work has came from. And that freaked me out for a while, but I finally accepted it and I have like a process. So I engaged in that the other day. Why did that freak you out? Because like this was all sort of slapstick. Like none of this was ever planned for me. And like I don't know why this sort of creative and philosophical vomit like comes out of me when I get really high. Like that's just what I want to do is have those sort of discussions and thoughts and approaches to everything.

Because you didn't study philosophy, did you? No, not a lick. Like this was all a splinter that was put in my mind by Bitcoin. And like each time I would like go farther down the rabbit hole, there was like more of a question that was compelled. And like it was very difficult and arduous and particularly early in my journey because like a lot of it was so sloppy and I felt so unconfident and I had no idea what I was doing. And, you know, I'd never talk to anybody who knew about any of these. So it was like when I was at Coinbase, I would always do a sort of like an introdike, like welcome to Coinbase conversation with people. I'd do those every Friday when I'd go into the office with like all new employees from like probably like 30 employees all the way up to like 200 employees.

I would do one of those with every employee. So when my friend Jesse joined Coinbase, it was really funny. I was like, hi, I'm Eric. It's like, hi, I'm Jesse. And I was like, I'm really interested in Bitcoin because all of the. philosophy that's involved with it. And I think there's like a really powerful chance to change things. And he was like, oh, like, he was like, have you ever heard of this philosopher, Carl Schmidt? And I was like, yeah, actually, I'm like really well read in Carl Schmidt. I've like read pretty much all of his

philosophical essays. And he, Jesse was just like floored because he had never even met anybody who had read Carl Schmidt. You know, and now almost 10 years later, he's like one of my best and closest friends. And like we have really profound conversations pretty much all the time about Bitcoin. And so like from there, he really gave me a lot of the encouragement to sort of continue on my journey. And like something people don't know is that like more than 10 years ago now, like I had like on a non blog that I had that like I was trying to kind of get all of this philosophy together. And I was publishing a lot of stuff. but it was a non because I didn't know about it. I felt very uncomfortable about it.

And so through the conversations with Jesse, eventually when I left Coinbase in 2017, we like had a sit down where he hung out for a couple days. And I was like, should I start publishing stuff under my own name? Should I actually like put essays out and represent it? You know, because we're like opsec and all this other stuff. And eventually he was just like, you know, he was like,

at some point we have to take responsibility for like speaking our truth in the world. And I think he was the one that told me he was like, there's a word for this in Greek. It's called parisia. And it's like to stand up firmly. And it's the way that you had to speak before Greek forms because if you like spoke about something that was sort of stupid or superfluous, they could kill you. So like you needed to like stand up firmly and strongly to like speak your truth passionately. Because like it mattered and there was something at stake in that. It was like, so I think we have to do that under our own known identities simply to take ownership of it.

And yeah, so that's when I first started publishing my various essays and then, you know, is that blog now public? No, I'm thinking about like my next major public. Like my next major piece, I think is recovering a lot of pieces of that because when I was first approaching Bitcoin, it was from like a far left communist perspective. And like I was trying to figure out how Bitcoin worked with all of this. and through like anarcho syndicalism and a number of other approaches, I kind of like halfway got it. And now that I'm pretty well read in philosophy,

and specifically now that I've read Heidegger, and I've also read Alexander Dugan's The Fourth Political Theory, like that gave me the framework to go, oh, like the fourth political theory is the answer, because Dugan points out that like, in globalized liberalism that has like exploded the political continue entirely, because like liberalism won. And Francis Fukuyama's assertion in 1994 of the last man of history of liberalism winning has a form of truth to it.

But there's this very sinister component of it that like the last man in history of liberalism, he's like fundamentally a criminal and a liar. Like he can't tell truth about anything. And like that's the world we now live in because like we live in liberalism. but like it's really this like mouth form disgusting uh like lie of itself that like it's about collecting as much fiat materialistic garbage that you can and like it and it like has no sincere relationship to classic liberalism and like that's sort of the most sinister lie that it tells and so dougan in the fourth political theory he offers at the end he was like there's a method to essentially take various components of the four class

classic political theories being fascism communism communism liberalism and what is the oh and I think the fourth one is he's just sort of like whatever the next thing is and so like I've had a theory that I think I've talked to you about that like Bitcoin takes these part like Bitcoin takes the most extreme components of communism and it takes the most extreme components of fascism and it uses those two extreme aspects of it to make the most extreme form of liberalism. And like that extreme form of liberalism, which I, I fundamentally believe, is anarchism. Uh, like technological anarchism is now this methodology that we now have to

essentially collectivize ourselves in a new and radical way to like overcome stateism as we see and understand it today for this next, what I've been calling the political. And like, that's what noster, Bitcoin, and, this free and open source protocol level rebuilding of the internet is. So you think things like Noster, Bitcoin, like, cryptography are going to be the things that take us to that forth, whatever comes next stage? Yeah, and like I feel smug in that, like, I was smart enough to, like,

call my book Crypto Sovereignty and not Bitcoin sovereignty or something. Because, like, cryptography is fundamentally like what makes all this work as a praxis. And like, when I saw Nostra come out, again, I felt very smug because I was like, that's exactly what I'm talking about. about because like noster clearly is just as important as bitcoin and it functions on the same praxis and parameters and there's like a bunch of tools we need like that particularly with going into this age of AI because like it's only with cryptography that we like box the shit in in any thoughtful way that protects us meaningfully and also like that we can make all kinds of agents

that we can use various forms of homoformic encryption to like play with in super powerful ways So like I'm feeling extremely excited. What Bitcoin did is brought to you by our lead sponsor and massive legends, Iron, the largest NASDAQ listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy. Iron are not just powering the Bitcoin network. They're also providing cutting edge computing resources for AI, all backed by renewable energy. We've been working with their founders, Dan and Will, for quite some time now,

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which is r-I-V-E-R dot com forward slash WBD. I want to talk about Noster, but before we do that, you said before that you think Bitcoin was given to us by God, and you obviously wrote an article called Bitcoin is Masonic. I think that was the title. I'm a cyanic Bitcoin. Okay. But when you say God, what do you mean?

Ah, yes, me and Knoot Swansonholm get into this. Like we could call it the infinity. God's a very loaded term, particularly for meeting bitcointers, particularly European bitcoins. It's gave me a lot more appreciation that like, I am a West Coast woo-woo person. I like grew up in Northern California. Like I, like my cultural heritage. was completely eliminated. Like, I'm fully plebarian.

I come from poor family. Like, I can't trace my ancestry deeper than a couple generations. And, like, it was already gobbly glute at that point in time. So, like, there's literally no cultural baggage. And I'm, like, two generations removed from, like, my mom went to Catholic school. And, like, she has that chip on her shoulder about religion. But, like, I was raised with no religious ideology whatsoever. So, like, that sort of frees me up in time.

entirely that like when I say God, it doesn't have any of that classical baggage. So like that's really important to understand. And so like with Knew, we agree. I was like, can we call it the infinity? He was like, sure. And like all that I'm saying is that like there's this other component outside and beyond the human scope of awareness or existence that like is truth, is infinite and is always. And that's part of the components of cryptography.

Like we're just dealing with sophisticated math in a way that like this has existed for all of time and existence everywhere all the time. It's just now we're sophisticated enough as beings to actually like not only utilize numbers large enough to start like creating these paradigms that we could say are like unbreakable. But also that like this has always been part of existence itself and always will be. And that's one of the other things that like makes what's going on so profound is that like shot 250. just like isn't really good right now. Like it should like if the parameters of cryptography are aligned in a way that we believe should happen throughout the rest. You know, like this is how physics works.

Like it should be good forever. And like this isn't to get into the debate about quantum computing or other things. But it's also about the, you know, cryptography as in the artistry of secrecy. Like that in and of itself is its own praxis. And so like a great. example is, like the SSL heartbleed blood, the SSL heart bleed bug that came up, I think, in 2016. I don't know about this.

This was essentially like in SSL certificates doing their handshake with one another to create a secure encrypted channel. There was like a fundamental and key error in that that like meant that you could actually like zero day anybody with a man in the middle. It was like a very serious zero day that got, you know, it was an exploit that got fixed quite quickly. And like that doesn't mean cryptography on a whole is erroneous. Like that is part of the science and like the methodology and the praxis towards cryptography. And like that's the thing that I'm pointing at that's like really, really important and powerful that we've always had access to.

And also connects with this entire concourse of like human history and war itself. You know, and like cryptography has even the most rudimentary cryptography like, uh, the sky tail that was used by Spartans, like in ancient Greece. This was a stick that had a piece of leather that you would wrap around it, and you'd like stamp your message vertically along the wrap of leather. So like the only way that you could wrap the stick and have the message make sense is like if you had the correct circumference like of the stick. Very rudimentary cryptography, but this was one of the key things that allowed for them to have

encrypted communication that gave them superiority on the battlefield that allowed for them to be victorious in war. So, like, this is all connected as, like, one gigantic chain of human history and understanding of, like, the philosophy of, like, what war is, which again, returns us all the way back to, like, why does Bitcoin use cryptography and, like, not something else as its heart? I feel like such an idiot talking to you because you have such amazing, like, historical recall, and you're obviously so well read on this stuff. I appreciate you saying that. I feel retarded most of the time, so I appreciate that.

One of the things that I really want to know, though, which we kind of glossed over a little bit, is what happened that made you go from resenting this calling to be this person in Bitcoin to kind of embracing it? Other Bitcoiners. I like meeting, connecting, feeling, and understanding my relationship with them and what they see it and how me and Jesse have talked about. There's this like mutual reflecting that goes on between us. That's like really inspiring.

And Jesse said this to me once. It's like it's like the experience of having God love you so much over and over repeatedly that like you finally want to like ask yourself to be raised to the task of like what is it what does it actually mean to be pious towards this thing that I very much believe in and want to be committed to. And that's what a lot of my writing has been about and sort of pursuing in its own way. And then, you know, like I remember after the conference in Madeira, like me and Jeff Booth were having dinner and we were just like sharing how much we love each other for like how and what we say and present like our own perspectives on it and like how important it is to have that shared relationship and connection. And like it's again, this is all getting really kind of woo-woo. but like that's the most radical truth that we have is that like we are bitcoin and like it's not as much as bitcoin is a technology that's like running on the internet like it's our understanding of it and understanding why that has value particularly like in our world and what that means and how

we connect with other beings like is kind of this consequential truth that transforms everything And to me, like, this is what Heidegger would say is, like, a graduation from being to, to, he uses as an ancient writing, B-E-Y-N-G-Being. And, like, these are sort of these two separate concepts that are really difficult, but, like, B-E-Y-N-G-B-Y-N-G-B-ing, like, is this greater sense of who you could be and who you can become. And, like, what does it mean when you've truly thought philosophically about what it means that, like, like you will die and that you could be connected to a greater lineage of history with that understanding and moving towards that and that calling that you know to be true as opposed to sort of your bullshit everyday being of, you know, objectively present. Like, yeah, I be like I'm here.

Like no big fucking deal. Like I'm going to go take a poop or take a shower or whatever. Like there's obviously like a different sense of being that you've had before where you feel connected to something much greater that like there are these. these key moments in your life where like you really see understand and feel something. And like that, that is something that is actually, frankly, like the sort of being that both Plato and Aristotle were speaking of that throughout the entire concourse of Western history was very misunderstood.

And that's part of why Heidegger was such an important philosopher as he returned to these ideas and parsed them out. And that's really what his like great work being in time is about is about. about sort of disentangling that to return all the way back to this question of like what does it mean to be and to me like that's really like the reading being in time is really like a 101 about like for you to be able to answer that question in a meaningful way like you need to read being in time otherwise and he presents all of this in being in time like otherwise like you have this very superfluous understanding of what being is that uh like is kind of kind of captured in an idiotic they, they, them sort of self. It's not really you. It's this projection that bleeds through you and other people that you sort of repeat. Like it has nothing to do with you understanding what being itself is. So just to go back a little bit there, you say Bitcoin is the people that sort of brought you to this mission. But as Eric the anarchist, have you been

disappointed in Bitcoiners recently? Because like, to me, I've been very, very, very, confused about what's happened. Like, Bitcoin was always this separating money in state. It's like an opt-out. It's not even an opt-out system. It's like a big fuck you to the system that has constantly stolen from us. And I get that it's like money for enemies. You can't stop anyone using it. This isn't an anti-Trump thing. Like, I think it's cool that the pendulum seems to be shifting back the other way. But I've been really surprised to see Bitcoin as cheerleading quite so hard. This is hard to answer because, like, On one level, yes, I do, you know.

And it's also funny because, like, I've, since what Bitcoin did has returned, I've pretty much watched most of your episodes. And so, like, I'd say I'm really in alignment with Mark Goodwin on this and that, like, you know, if it takes a couple more years for Bitcoin to win and we, like, keep some of our core values and principles, like, yeah, absolutely. Like, that's the right way to go. And I probably would have even answered this question differently yesterday. But like, Ross Ulbrook is free from the work that David Bailey and like a lot of like the status bitquiners did.

Yeah, it's amazing. That's like a very real meaningful and important thing that like my answer as an anarchist, like we wouldn't have meaningfully addressed that. And that's like something really important. And also like one of the things I've always believed about Bitcoin and Bitcoiners to be true is that like the methodology through what Bitcoin. through what Bitcoin is becoming successful through is that anarchists and capitalists essentially like made a deal. And it was like, hey, we will like give you rogue free money. And like you can use this to like make more money than ever possible before.

But you're going to fucking destroy the state for us. And they're like, yeah, whatever. Like if I'm going to make as much money possible, sure. And there's this sort of constant and hilarious like Trojan horse story. that plays out. Because like I think right now, as horrifying as it all is, like, uh, like Trump coin and all of this bullshit going on, like they, they have bought the horse story hook line and sinker. And like they brought that motherfucker into Troy. And what's really important about the Trojan horse story to understand is that like the way the horse came about

is that the Greeks used this as a trap and they left it on the beach. And they were like, we're actually going to leave this on the beach like, essentially as an apology for the way that we like brutalized, murdered, and dishonored the body of Hector. And so like the Trojan show up and they're like, whoa, there's this like gigantic horse and there's like one Greek dude left here. And it's funny because immediately like the very similar to Gary Glensler or I forget Brad, whatever that shithead's name is, the congressperson who like understood that like Bitcoin will fucking destroy the state. the Trojan priest I think Sion was his name he immediately was like oh like fuck this

like kill him burn this thing down no way this is going and the Greek guy's like no no hang on like everybody left we're really sorry that we dishonored Hector we like built this gigantic horse to like honor and venerate and celebrate you guys and we wanted to make it so big

and so great and so important that you could never ever take it into Troy or you know because like that's the only way the gods can be dignified. It was you can never take it to Troy. And again, the priest was like, fuck this guy. Kill him immediately. They're lying to us.

And he actually picks up a spear and throws it in the side of the horse. And when he throws it in the side of the horse, he actually penetrates and it hits Odysseus and Odysseus moans. However, at the same time, Athena sends serpents because like she's like, oh, this is getting out of hand. Like, let's fucking kill this priest. She sends serpents at the same time to eat the Trojan priest and his children, like his two sons that are with him. So the Trojans see this and they're like, oh shit, like the, like this is real, the gods were pissed that our priests were speaking against this glorious thing. Like, we got

to take this in Detroit immediately. And so they do. And like, this is where we're at right now is, we've been very open with status that like, this thing is going to fucking destroy the state and fiat money. Like, like, the state can't work with fiat money. And they're, you know, and like, Bitcoin dollar thesis aside, which is an interesting way to, you know, the big problem I always see with this is, sorry, I'm taking a bit of a detour here. Is that like, okay, what Ross Ulbrook represents was the very first market Bitcoin ever had. And like, do you remember the pineapple fund that came out in like 2016 or something? No. The pineapple fund, like some dude, and to me, it was like pretty obvious. It was somebody who was like a major dealer on the silver.

Road. He donated $100 million to, like, psychedelic research with Bitcoin through an anonymous fund. And I'm pretty sure he single-handedly sponsored the phase three trials for MDMA. And so, like, yeah, it's fucking phenomenal. And like it, so, like, single-handedly, Bitcoiners and their perspective had to have advanced this entire field of psychedelic and drug research. And, like, that's a truism today. That, like, the earliest OG hardcore bitcoins are now more wealthy than they could have ever been because of Bitcoin and their belief in it. And that will continue to happen as Bitcoin inflates to infinity. So like now we have very real wealth that can go and influence and change everything very similar to how we change

this political process on a whole, you know, in the American 2024 election. And to me, this was one step towards now we're actually figuring out that like it's not like work. We're. component of the Republican contingency. Like, no, we're like the fucking spearhead. And like, these parasites have latched onto us. And like, it is now time to dispose of them and realize and step into our own power that like Bitcoiners should be making an alliance. And this is one that that I think is even tenuous.

And that again, we'll play out in the exact same way as like, we should probably make an alliance with, uh, the right tech elite. Let them get us into power and then like betray their asses and like essentially rip the lungs out of Palantir and all of this tech surveillance ship that they've built and replace it with free and open source software that like they can't modify. And I'm pretty sure that's the direction it will go. Because like one of the other things I realized is like if you look at your podcast and many others in the space and the dialogues that we have, there's a very real and powerful

zeitgeist that we're speaking to. And like then if you like go turn on an Ethereum or Solana podcast, like it is just the most inane, boring bullshit. Yeah. Like no charisma, no life, no meaning, no thought to it. And like, these are clearly divergent at this point in time. And so, like, I'm realizing more and more that, like, we are at a cultural zeitgeist. And it's because, again, we're engaging in a process of parisia of speaking very real truth to power,

that, like, these other systems can't speak to in any meaningful way. Like, they can still play the bullshit game with themselves of being like, yeah, like, so I was gonna change the world by like i i don't even know what their fucking tagline is but like ethereum obvious it is lost and i love i love so much right now what's going on with eth and uh more specifically that like milady it's like the thing that's making them set themselves on fire like it's extraordinary and poetic in many ways i saw i saw you zapping milady the other day I might go pile in like I do not

shit coin whatsoever but I might just go buy a shitload of Malady and get on board with whatever they're doing because like it's going to wreck Ethereum and it's going to be hilarious

It's so funny what's happening the kind of shit coin space though because it Even since like I came in in 2016, 2017 it's gone from being like the things that thought

they were going to compete against Bitcoin like light coin stuff like that to being like the crazy ICO stuff and then it was almost things that were trying to compete with Ethereum and now it's just

the veils off. They're not even pretending anymore. It's just pure gambling. Rizzo's thesis that he presented to you, like, in your guys' Yeah, it's brilliant. That, like, we have reached the end, like, mask off. Like, everyone knows what this is. So, like, all it can be is, like, its own superfluous and insane meme at the end, which, like, Trump coin is a full representation of that. And I think, I do think it's funny that, like, yeah, nobody's gunned for the king anymore. Like, at best, like, they are trying to murder each. other and in that like they're proving their case and point through and through and it's quite

funny and poetic and beautiful you know and that that's why like as much as trump shit coining has been a tragic thing again like everything is good for bitcoin this is all a gigantic smoke screen that is working very very well for bitcoin as they're like doing stuff uh like bringing it in the state and legitimizing it in ways um like i have my own opinions about uh like strategic reserve and that kind of bullshit. But like at the end of the day, everyone is legitimizing the fact that like Bitcoin is the premier and the most important asset on the planet.

And like everybody should have one irregardless of their position on it. And like that in and of itself is the profound thing that changes everything. The thing that I don't know though is that like it, at least from my perspective, it seemed like everyone was always trading shitcoins to get more Bitcoin. And now look like I was fucking ground zero ICOs at Coinbase. And like one of the things that really changed my like where I got that I was like, oh shit, I'm somebody different is like long story short is there was a whole bunch of us in the cafeteria

having a lot of dialogue. And I'm like, you know, everybody's talking about what they're trading and doing that. And I was like, hang on. I was like, you're all like doing this to like get more Bitcoin, right? And they were like, huh? I was like, hang up. Like raise your hand if you're trading to get more Bitcoin. And it was like me and one other guy raising their hand.

And I was like raise your hand if you're just trying to make money. And like everybody else's hand shop. And I was like, oh, fuck. I was like, yeah, that surprises me. Yeah, I was like, I thought this was something different. No, it was really interesting. Like early, very early Coinbase, like pre-2015, it was like hardcore bitcoins and anarchists. But by 2017, we were a small contingency of the team.

And by the time I left, like there was very few of us left at all. and that's part of why I left is that it was very clear that and it was funny because like the Friday that I left Bolger just started the next Monday and like that's what that like unequivocally like that was the shift

these shit coin gates oh yeah yeah but like I guess my point there was and this may age like milk I can't see how it can get more degenerate than it is right now like it's it's not even pretending to be anything and these I agree with you that this seems like the biggest shift we've ever had in terms of like Bitcoin is so clearly something else.

But these people I don't think will ever come, or maybe eventually they'll come across to Bitcoin, but they're not going to come across to Bitcoin in the short term. So like, what even are these things and what happens next there? That's what I don't know. I forget who pointed out. Somebody's on Twitter. It was like, if you look at the Weimar hyperinflation, like the key moment that happened was the legality that changed where they were like, okay.

any bank, like any bank, any financial institution and like any, any like regional county or city can just like issue their own currency. And it was like in a six month period, that's like where it, you know, like that's where hyperinflation truly set in. And so like I think we're, because look like we're kind of at the end of capitalism. Like like cap. And like again, these terms are so hard. And this is part of what I'm working on for my second book is like unpacking all of the isms and all of the history and philology that goes with it.

Because like these terms are almost fucking meaningless at this point in time. And it's like when I say capitalism, I'm like talking about this like hyper fiat state financialized thing where the stock market is like the main part of the general economy. And that means that guys that literally do nothing but click buttons on a computer make more money than like somebody that actually works like 18 hours a day doing really hard labor. Like these things like aren't connected at all anymore and that's sort of the end of what you know what I would call capitalism not in like a good and meaningful way but like this fucked up like the crody capitalism system. Yeah and this is where it marries up with like what I was talking about with Fukuyama and like the the sort of lie that liberalism entails like that that's what this thing is and like that's the that's the lie that postulates itself as capitalism. Because like if we want to talk about like real capitalism, we're talking about like free markets where it's like to me, and this is one of the the thesis that brought me to Bitcoin was that like free market exchange is like a great thing and like the black market and what would be known as system D. These are like these are like legitimate economic actors despite the fact that like you won't allow them in the system. And there's no way for these people to be empowered except for something like Bitcoin.

And that's when I was like, oh, like, if you get people in sub-Saharan Africa who have, like, never had access to banking services, something like Bitcoin, this could be a really powerful and important game changer. You know, and that was, like, more than a decade ago that, like, I kind of approached that thesis. And it's sort of playing out. So, like, I, I kind of think the next four years are going to get really interesting. Because, like, I think, because, like, look at the Trump coin thing. Like, there, there are people that now literally. are multi-millionaires based off of like they did that overnight sleeping uh and like now you have a bunch of people that don't understand any of this being like how is this fair at all like trick question

it's not and like so the question is like why are you participating in a system that will fuck you over this fucking hard and furthermore like i have something different here called bitcoin i understand you don't get it because you think crypto and bitcoin are the same thing but like if you can actually answer this question, what is the difference between Bitcoin and crypto? That will be the thing that liberates you from this system. And I get that like 100,000 Bitcoin, oh no, you've missed the boat. No, you're retarded. You don't understand how this works. Well, it's really frustrating because like I'm having, you know, the cycles go on and people come out of the woodwork. And like, hey, like, wish I would listen to you at $20,000. And it's like, yeah, I know. Like maybe you'll listen right now. probably won't, but I'll see you again at fucking 200,000, or maybe it'll be four or six, I don't know.

But like, it's key to understanding, and this is, again, why I love Jeff Booth, is that, like, his thesis that he puts forward in the price of tomorrow about technology and its deflationary nature, and Bitcoin's relationship to that is extremely important. We now have a money that can be deflationary with technology forever. If you can make that into your savings vehicle over the next four years, that will, that will actually accrue real savings for you, more so than any other asset that there is in the economy. The question is if you can actually do the work yourself to figure that out, or if you want to keep repeating the brainwashing pedantic crap that you've been told by economists who

hate you and fundamentally have different values in a form of life from you. I don't know. That's a question for individuals to answer for themselves. And just to kind of answer part of the chip on my shoulders that like it's been hard seeing this from all the way down the line and dealing with these people like the Paul Krugman's of the world and how infuriating it is that people listen to individuals like him despite the fact that like he just gets to be wrong over and over and over and over and over and that no point of people like you know maybe this guy's full of shit like maybe he's actually just a liar and he uses his credentialism to prop himself up It's obviously come back to bite poor Krugman.

He's ended up, has he stepped down or was he fired from his role? Was he? Oh, man. I don't know if he was fired. He's certainly, he's not doing it anymore. But, like, I think the amount of time these people are going to be able to do that is limited. And I think maybe that's coming to an end. Yeah, like Trump's election represents like a watershed moment of like where the, the pendulum is now swinging.

And it's not so much that like this whole contingency of people suddenly feel differently. It's that like they're afraid of us and they understand that there's like something real that's happening. And so like you can't just say like Bitcoin's a bubble anymore. Like that doesn't substantiate or work anymore. And you can't just say like this crypto thing is nothing and it's going away. You can still obfuscate and confuse the two. But like that that's coming to an end pretty soon too.

And to me like that's the most important thing because like now we're going to have a gigantic sucking noise from the not only the general economy but the crypto economy as well towards bitcoin because like essentially everyone's going to figure out that like again bitcoin is the premier asset it's the only thing that has a denominator and there is no exception that changes that everything else has an exception you know like there's um you know it was funny i remember uh nick carter has me blocked on uh twitter now just from you know whatever for flame wars were going on at some point in time, and I liked something I shouldn't have. But like me and him, we got together.

I think it was like the 2019 Bitcoin conference. We like had a drink. And I remember saying something to the effect of like Vitalik was like sitting across the room from us like with his gang and like everybody's having a great time. And I was like, Nick, like, let me ask you right now. Like if I was to walk across the room and grab Vitalik and like throw him off the balcony because he was like, you know, 10 feet within the balcony. I was like, if I hadn't opened short on Eath, like I could probably make millions, if not tens of millions, right? And he was like, yeah. I was like, that's the problem.

There's like people that I can kill in these other systems that will make the price go down. I was like, who can I murder in Bitcoin that that can happen to? I was like, I don't think there is somebody. I was like, yeah, like that's the difference between these two. Yeah. I mean, I fundamentally agree with everything you're saying there. and I don't want to get into talking about murdering people. But I wonder if Michael Saylor represents that person now.

Yeah, like, I don't, like, peace and love. Like, I'm not interested in murdering anybody. But, like, it is problematic when you have key actors in systems that can change the entirety of how the system functions. Like, that's, again, that's a big part of my work in crypto sovereignty is pointing out, like, what the state of exception is and how everything essentially collapses into that. and how that doesn't happen on Bitcoin. It's not that I'd say murdering Michael Saylor would, it would definitely do something to the general price, but can it compromise the entire integrity

of the Bitcoin project on a whole? No. Of course not, yeah. In fact, it would probably make the price of Bitcoin go up a whole bunch. You know, yeah, well, potentially. It depends who came into my strategy after, but let's move on from this. Just back to the Trojan horse thing.

Sorry, Mike. The idea on the Trojan horse, I'm like 99% sure it's Bitcoin is in the Trojan horse, but I know that there's like the countermeam, which is really it's the state in the Trojan horse coming into Bitcoin. Do you think Bitcoin is too powerful to be co-opted by anyone? Or do you think there is a slight threat in that? This is hard to answer because like it really comes down to us and like how all of this is going to play out in time and like what the next block size. war like what what the whatever the next iteration of the block size war is that is inevitably going to happen with the state is and like how we respond to that and how it all plays out um i think there's like a strong enough cultural contingency of like hardcore plebarian like cypherpunks that like won't let that happen uh and even if it does there's like all of these other cypher punk projects

going on that like fuck up how fiat operates well enough but like furthermore the fact that like the word fiat the fact that we've been at the top of the cultural funnel for the last five years and all of this thing's trickling out like i i think we have a strong enough narrative going on now that people can't stand against it and it's because like that narrative is fundamentally married up with stuff like austrian economics and energy usage and other things and so like at this point in time like even if there is, like even if we get Bitcoin dollar and CBDC version of Bitcoin, I think there's going to be, like, I think it would be really interesting to see what a new fork wars would look like.

Because like, I think this is a fork wars where like nation states start to play against each other. And like essentially in that, there would become like a non-alignment movement of Bitcoin that would then like come out and assert itself. But again, like, none of this is clear until we, like, get to that place where these sort of censorship comes. And this is also the place where, like, the intermarriage of cryptography and, like, all of these other shit coins and projects that are going on becomes really interesting. Because, like, okay, so you get that. Like, what do you do about bridges between stuff like Bitcoin and Manero or, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like coins, mimble, whimble shit.

And, like, there always becomes ways to, like, obfuscate value transfers between. mean like methodologies. So to me, like this is all a bigger cypherpunk game that's really interesting that I ultimately think plays out with Bitcoin winning because of the sort of ethos and perspective that Bitcoin asserts itself as. And I don't think people are willing or interested in compromising that, particularly some people in really powerful places now. Like I've had a number of private dialogues with Michael Saylor and like he fucking gets it.

Like the like who whose side is he on? I don't know. Like, is he a double agent? Is he a triple agent? Like, I have no idea. But he understands that like this is the premier asset of the world. And he's doing more to get more of it than anybody else. Yeah.

And he frankly seems to be like front running the entire system using the inflating the debt bubble to acquire Bitcoin in a way that's more thoughtful than really anybody else. Hence why he's one of the largest owners of Bitcoin. It's quite profound to see him do it. And, you know, he's just one of another people like Ross St. evans or others. This episode is brought to you by CASA. For those of you out there who want to protect your Bitcoin, I want to tell you about CASA, the leading Bitcoin self-custody solution.

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ensuring that your Bitcoin stay safe from hacks, fishing and malware. With Ledger's easy-to-use devices and the Ledger Live app, managing your Bitcoin has done. never been more convenient. Whether you're a long-time holder or new to the world of Bitcoin, Ledger makes it simple to keep your assets protected. If you want to find out more, visit ledger.com and secure your Bitcoin today. That is L-E-D-G-R.com. Sorry, I was just going to say, I think, I think one of the things that people miss on Saylor is, like, he often comes out and he won't talk about Bitcoin as, like, a threat to the dollar. He always talks about demonetizing gold.

And people read too far into that, I think, and he's playing the game. Like, I'm sure he's just playing the game. Well, yeah, like, he's obviously, like, not stupid. And if you, like, like, one of the things that was very clear to me from, from meeting him and getting to know him is that, like, everything that you have ever seen on any media with Sailor is a presentation that he has for the media. Like, that, that's what you do when you're a Fortune 500 CEO, because there are gigantic golden handcuffs that let you be a Fortune 500 CEO. Like, those are always there no matter what. Like, like, That's why somebody like me will never be a Fortune 500 studio because like we don't have those golden handcuffs. And that's also like a really interesting thing that like I also recognize for myself is like, oh, like I can say and do things that Michael Saylor can't. And I'll, you know, and I've had people point out they're like, that's like a really interesting and unique power that you have. Do you think Bitcoin gave you that power? 100%. You know.

Yeah. Like I unequivocally Bitcoin gave me that power. And maybe I had the anger and veracity to think or believe those things before. But it's the only reason why I've ever been able to speak to it. You know, is that like look like, and listening to Ross's thing earlier, it really connected me with this. Like I do think from the work that I do with Bitcoin at some point in time, I will be labeled a political dissident. And like I might get thrown in a cage. That's like really, really, really fucking scary.

And it's one of the reasons why I haven't leaned in all the way to this. And it's also one of the reasons why I've made the decision moving forward. Like, I'm working on hardcore cypherpunk tools moving forward for the rest of my life. Like, I am providing funding and sponsorship and hopefully like a meaning physical space where people can get together. Because like, this is unequivocally the most important development in humanity today. And maybe in human history on a whole. and these will probably be tools that exist for hundreds of years. And so, like, we must get this right.

I must commit myself to doing it because also, like, I'm pretty sure it's going to be my ass directly on the line at some point in time. So when they do blackbag me and throw me in a cage, I really hope people will be like, here's all this stuff Eric has wrote and spoken to. And, like, here it is uncensurable. Here are the signatures proving that, like, this is legitimately what he said. and know that all the other stuff out there is like,

I'm modified or whatever, and like we can actually see the chain of cryptographic proofing that this is legitimately stuff that he said. You know, and also methodologies so that like when I am blackbagged, I can continue to release my writings and, you know, more dissident thoughts that again have cryptographic proofs that show that like this is legitimately like my writing

that I saved and secured for after I became imprisoned and I became a victim of the state. And so I take that responsibility very seriously. And I think anybody who is involved in Bitcoin also needs to take it very seriously. Like these are very important tools for the empowerment of humans, not just now, but tomorrow too. You know, I'm like, I have two young children. And I love them very dearly. And I'm very scared of the world that they will inherit if we,

don't take this responsibility correctly. And furthermore, like, I, I'm excited because, like, you know, one of my children is old enough to really be starting to understand stuff and he gets it. And it's really powerful because, like, I can see that, like, he's going to become a very powerful ally in moving this forward. And I think that's true for all of our children that, like, we know a world before Bitcoin. They won't. And with them not knowing that and hearing these dies,

dialogues and connecting to that, they will go, wow, like our parents did something profound for us and we will now stand on their shoulders and give that to the rest of the world in a meaningful way. And that's going to be truly incredible because, like, again, we're on the precipice of this new political theorem where the internet itself and free and open source protocols allow for humans to finally have the political conversation that all people everywhere, forever. deserve. And what does it mean to speak free? What does it mean to have no censorship? What does it mean to be able to connect with those anywhere in the world that you choose to commune with? And yeah, I think that that's going to create for a profound unraveling of the old system. And while that's terrifying, the bloom of the new system excites me more. And that's been the biggest thing in the last two years that's really transformed for me is getting that as dark as everything else is,

the light that's shining and growing is more powerful and profound. And so, like, there's a way to get out of this darkness without it just being a complete cluster fuck. As someone with a young kid, I got goosebumps when you were saying that. Back to the start of the conversation, you said that you think Nostra is as important as Bitcoin.

This is presumably why. And, like, to be clear, like, Noster is Bitcoin. Like it's like using the same key sets and pairs and stuff. So like this is all part of a full stack. Nobody's just put it all together yet. And that was like I didn't know that for a long time. And that blew my fucking mind was that like Noster uses the same like key set generation,

like the same framework that essentially Bitcoin is using. So like this all can get married up into a gigantic key management form at some point in time. And that's one of the reasons why Frost is so important. from how I see it is that like there becomes a full stack of tools at some point in time that is about key management and particularly in a world where there's going to be rogue AI agents doing all kinds of shit out there key management like is the key at the end of the day and particularly like having these new methods of collaborative, communicative ways to do it with keys that degenerate over time that have multiple like we're so early in the game of like the tools of like the tools. that we get to build and it's so exciting because like you know like I just I had a I still feel like on noster we should call them squarks for like an ostrich squirt nobody's with me yeah I'm not with you on that that's terrible yes all right fine but I had a note that I was just like this communication like is me to you like it's not being facilitated through a website through like

there's no central service that's mediating between us like that's never happened in human history. Like, I can literally talk to somebody on the other side of the globe who I've never met, who only knows me through Noster. And, like, it's, it's mediated through these relays. Like, that's profound. And that allows for a totally new form of political apparatus to come about. And when I say political, I mean, like, capital T, capital P. Like, the same thing, like, when I talk about politics that, like, the idea that you have rights, like, that's a political, like, capital T, capital P thing. That's part of the political. And so to me like this becomes part of the political as well. Like there's no other side that, outside of the technological limitations, like there's no

reason why anybody in any country anywhere can't use these tools to communicate with us now. And so it's just a matter of time and education before we get these tools in front of people and really have them understand how profound and important they are. Have you put your book on Nostia? Yeah, I did actually because people were kind of harassing me. So I was just like, fuck it. I'm just going to put it on Noster and flinging out there. Like I should find it and retweet it. But yeah, like, you know, because at the end of the day, yeah, anybody should have access to it.

So if you look through my history, you'll find I've provided a PDF, like, of my whole book and you can read through it. Yeah, and I really want to do my own audio book and, like, put all of that on Noster as well. But it keeps not happening because I've been limited by all of the stuff. my very human aspects of who I am. But yeah, that's why part of why right now is the most exciting thing. And like, Noster's just fucking cool. Like people can send you real money that you can use right away through Noster.

And like, you don't get that on Twitter. Like if you're going to get your money on Twitter, you have to have a bunch of followers. And you have to like do all your KYC shit. And it's like very dystopian. So like, it's very clear to me, like, Noster absolutely hands down wins the social media game.

It's just a matter of time, and it'll play out like Bitcoin. And I'm pretty sure even with that, like Noster's growth and development will far outpace, you know, like early Facebook and other things once it starts catching on. And like what was more helpful or profound for us other than people figured out like, oh, like TikTok can just be like turned off by the government? It's like, yeah, do you like, did you think it wasn't that way? Like, do you think Facebook or Instagram or Twitter is different in any way? Like, do you really think that, like, a reaction to Trump, like, if they got Democrats in in 2028? Do you think they wouldn't turn Twitter off as revenge towards Elon Musk? Like, you should think real hard about that if, like, that's where you get your money from.

I did see quite a few people from TikTok come across the Nost to when that happened, which is very cool. But I do, like, I agree, though, that it's the only thing that's going to drive that to, to a degree that you're talking about is probably massive overreaching governments and shit, which... But that would never... Why would our governments ever do that? It's not like they've ever overreached

for no good reason before. Well, and again, this returns me back to the state of exception stuff. Like, if they can do it, they will do it. And like, all you got to say is the wrong stuff. And on a long enough timeline, somebody's gonna fuck that up. Mm-hmm.

You know? And so, like, to... I don't know. To me, it... particularly as a creator like I just frankly like I think you're fucking stupid if you legitimately are leaving

the entirety of your livelihood in the hands of you know Facebook Twitter like whatever it is that like look like you can have a disgruntled X that works at that company that just was like fuck fuck them ban them

and there's no review process no way to recover from that so like I don't know Like you probably should get on Noster and just, even if it's just copy and pasting your stuff there just for records to keep it there, that's probably wise. Because how many people have gotten fucked out of years of work on YouTube that like their work's just gone now? You know, it's because they said the wrong thing about COVID or whatever. Like, again, if you're a creator, it's, and again, like, this is very similar to, you know, a lot of genocide theory. It's that like if you're a Jew in Germany in 1930,

like maybe you should read the writing on the fucking wall and like have a safety plan. Instead of being like, no, the Nazis would never full scale murder us. Like, why would they do that? You know, like, it might just be wise to like prepare yourself to leave. Same thing. Like, I don't know why you'd get canceled from Twitter or Instagram or whatever. But again, maybe that, you know, very similar to like in 2019,

if you were telling people, hey, did you know that you're going to get censored and kicked off of all your social media because you don't want to take an experimental vaccine? They'd be like, what fucking crack have you smoked? Here we are. So like there's a lot of the future and unintended consequences that you can't predict that can get your ass canceled. And most important, it's not even that it's a possibility that it could happen. It's that they can do that to you. And again, like one should really be rigorous in their thought. and go, well, if it could happen,

if there's somebody that can press that button to do it, maybe they'll do it just to do it because they don't like me. And like, that might be it. That might be the very thing that comes down to. They might just not like you. Very similar, like, you might just find yourself being a Jew in Germany in 1930. Has nothing to do with any other feature about who and what you are, but that might be the very thing that gets your ass canned.

And particularly, like, coming out of the last four years of insane wokeness, if you don't think that shit can happen again, like you might want to read some history books and realize that like this is part of the process that's happened repeatedly through human history. So like this wasn't a new iteration at all. So like that that's my speech there for like why noster is super essential and everybody needs it

and that you're an idiot if you don't have it. But very similar to Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure this this whole thing's going to play out over 10 years. And somebody four years from now will be like, whoa, like that was, who, like, who knew that speaking about the very real aliens that were coming here was going to get me canceled? Like, I'm like, I know. Like, I got three extraterrestrials right over here right now. We're just taking bong rips and, like, having a great time. I want to close out with, like, a really big, broad question that kind of encapsulates everything we've talked about there. You think that we're at a point where capitalism's ending. Bitcoin is kind of the Trojan horse entering the state.

what do you think the next like four years will look like um the shackles are off right larger and more larger and more severe economic panics uh you know like we i feel pretty confident by the next presidential election that like bitcoin will be well beyond a million dollars uh which feels insane saying like out loud it doesn't to me people keep saying that and like i keep looking at it but like my brain just can't wrap around it but then again like i I had the same experience about talking about a thousand dollar Bitcoin and a hundred thousand dollar Bitcoin. So like don't don't see why like my little monkey brain would suddenly get it now.

It's hilarious because like the happening will never be priced in. Like it just won't. I think Bitcoiners actually become a very real and serious political contingency. Yeah, like I'm somewhat. contemplating, like, making a very serious orange party in the United States. And it's, like, exactly what it is. It's, like, a forward tech. You're contemplating this.

Sort of. I mean, like, I want to see. As the anarchist. Yeah. I know. I know. I'm sorry. But I think, and it's hard because, like, I, I almost want to get rid of the anarchist

label. It's just, like, anarchism becomes something really different in the technological age. Because, like, now we have this entire toolbox. that allows for us to actualize anarchism in a way that, like a good example is, like, amongst anarchist circles, the very idea of anarcher capitalism is like sort of laughable for like a number of reasons, but Bitcoin actualizes it again through these odd tensions of extremes. And like, it's, it's like through anarchism making that, like in the very same way that,

you take the most extreme components of fascism and the most extreme components of communism and you get this extreme component of liberalism, you're also taking the most extreme components of anarchism and the most extreme components of capitalism to like make this tension to make the most legitimate form of money that's ever existed. So like there's all of these oddities that go together. And so with that like maybe it's an anarcho syndiclist,

but the way that I see it is like, I'm not interested in federal politics at all. I want an orange party in all 50 states that we essentially forced through, very similar to how Bitcoiners did in this last federal election, we become a key contingency that in becoming a key contingency, we force through state legislatures, Article 5 amendments to the Constitution. So we just start amending the Constitution unilaterally through states without the federal government.

And like that's never happened in American history. Most people are acutely unaware of the Article 5 method of ratifying the Constitution. And even getting close to doing that would cause for a constitutional crisis that I think would be really important and powerful. Because essentially, through causing that constitutional crisis, you really compel the question, how powerful are states in the United States? And like, what does it mean that there's a 10th Amendment that explicitly says that any rights that aren't directly stated to be part of the federal government belong in and only to the states as well? Well, with that alone, we should be able to destroy pretty much every federal agency, particularly three-lettered

ones. Like there's nowhere in the Constitution that says anything about the IRS, the CIA, or the NSA. So we should be able, as states, to ratify directly and only through states without any oversight by the federal government whatsoever to amend the U.S. Constitution directly and force that onto the federal government. Because I think this is how you get an out-of-control federal government back under control is he'd utilize this nascent and unused way to essentially politically organized in a very different method than's been done before. And so essentially you start, and you only need three-fifths of states. So like once you get, and then furthermore, like once you prove that you do this once,

well, there's no reason that you can't actually have an Article 5 convention and try to rewrite the entirety of the constitution. And it's not to say that there won't be federal governments and judiciaries that come through that go, no, no, no, you can't do that. That's illegal. Now we got a real fucking problem on our hands because now we can turn to, you know, the people of the states and say, is that actually true? Do you not have democratic rights that can be overridden by the federal government, despite the fact that in a plebiscis, it seems that this is what people want. Now we have a constitutional crisis. And yeah, like that's fucking dangerous on a number of levels. but I think where we're going right now with a federal government that's out of fucking control is more dangerous.

And whatever you say about Trump, like he, in terms of, oh, he's like cutting the budget and stuff, like, look, like the U.S. military, NSA, CI, like, all this shit is completely out of fucking control. And like, until, in my opinion, like, they just need to be outright destroyed and furthermore, there needs to be open trials about what has happened to get all for the truth out there. And I think anything short of that is bullshit. And that is absolutely incapable of by a federal government at this point. I do think, though, if Trump does end up releasing like the JFK files and all those and like doing a load of disclosures, within the U.S., I think a lot of people's eyes are going to be opened. I think they'll be open, but like I'm very bearish on Americans at this point in time. uh like i it's sad to say and like i i'm i'm still bullish on uh like american ideals and particular

individuals that inspire those but in terms of the general public i'm very bearish on like i particularly after covid seeing the shit that went down like i i i honestly believe that you could have uh like gustavo secret police abducting people in the middle of night and murdering them and most Americans would not care. You don't think this will be a bit of a phase shift if people, like, learn that the CIA killed JFK? No, I think the nihilism is too deep. And furthermore, like, I think even if it, because, like, the CIA did kill JFK.

And, like, once that has been disclosed, when you talk to most people and point that out to them, they'll be like, no. It's like the exact same way that you go, you know, the dollar isn't backed by gold? They're like, no. that's not true. And then you show it to them like, huh, wow, I didn't know. Anyway, too, too, do, like, you know, how was the game last night? Yeah, and like, this is a product of, like, 100 years of an inverted eugenics project

that's been designed to make people completely nihilistic and complacent in always shapes and form. You know, like, it's, I think short of, like, people actually starving, there's very little that will motivate people to compel very real and sincere change. It's not to say that there aren't pockets and contingencies of those people. And like I think that if there was something like an orange party, like it, like when I say a political party, like I'm not talking about getting elected or anything. Like I'm talking about a radical vanguardist party that's about like the political and that like I'm interested in you knowing and understanding how and why these cryptographic tools

are important, giving them to your community. and talking shit about both political parties and only trying to force the agenda around this Article 5 thing. Like, we're not trying to get people elected. We're not trying to participate in government. Like, we are here to amend the Constitution to destroy specific power structures of the federal government. We are not interested in being elected to something. We are interested in destroying a part of how the government functions and making sure. sure that that is enumerated specifically in an amendment to the U.S. Constitution so that these

fucking pieces of shit now actually need to either obey the Constitution or mask fucking off moment where you realize these are just raw fucking fascist authoritarian that they don't give a fuck about the law at all. They give a fuck about their own power. And that's why we have all of these cryptographic tools that allow for you to shield and hide yourself. Because like, I'm fucked. I'm public. Like, like, shit will come down. on me and it's going to fucking suck. But if I can protect my family, if I can protect my Bitcoin, and if I can

have a meaningful legacy that allows for others out there, what I was going to say at the very beginning of this is like when I got super high and was writing, I was writing a love letter to Alice. And like this other individual who I can never meet because of the perfect forward secrecy

she always has to have and what my profound love is for her, that she knows her responsibility that like we can never actually meet, but we can exchange love letters. And like what it means that we can actually do that. Because like that's what the profound love is, is that like, and I've been fortunate enough to be at conferences and have like a non-mast up people come up to me and say like, hey man,

like just an anon, I want you to know that like I love you. I respect what you do. And I think it's really important. And I tell them right back like, I love you and respect what you do. I will never know your name or face. And that's really fucking important. because even if I become the thing that I despise and detest, I can't betray you.

And for that, thank you. Like, you're part of the glue that holds this system together. I mean, isn't it fucking cool and wild and impossible to wrap your head around that all this change can come from magic internet money posted anonymously online? Yeah. And like, that goes to show the power and brilliance of true thought that's connected like through the concourse of human history. And that's what gets me back to all the philosophical stuff.

Like the truest understanding of Bitcoin is when you connect it to that historicity of man and what it now means to have a money that is fundamentally beyond violence and is also like married to energy itself. And how that literally transforms the entirety of the human story. And this profound and empowering way that's truly about like light love and peace. And it goes back to Levinaas's thing. It's that through us honoring and venerating the other, that like people do have a right to privacy. People do have a right to cryptography.

People do have a right to own something that can never be taken away from them. That from that, a first philosophy actually unfolds that's truly profound in a way, that even more meaningful than just wanting to actualize it through an ethical assertion, it actualizes itself through cryptography in a way that can never be taken away and can never be destroyed. And for me, like, that's a profound gift that's been given to humanity. And frankly, that's what my essay messianic Bitcoin is about. It's like when you realize that in that essay, I quote Nietzsche's death of God. And like in that whole paragraph, he says, like, what rituals can be made to redeem us from the blood of this knife?

Well, it's literally the rituals of cryptography and like what that entails and creates through it being dignified and created in a meaningful way. That's why you can't just guess my private keys. That's why nobody can guess them. That's why even if the most powerful supercomputer, with all of the energy of the universe and all of the commitment from all governments everywhere to destroy me, they will never guess it.

And that was something given to us only by God and has always been available just through the fundamental beauty that is the secrecies of mathematics and the true art of cryptography. What a way to end. I love you, man. You're one of my favorite people in the world to talk to. I really appreciate the time. I love you too. And I hope you get to visit where I'm at in the future. I'd love to just like show you all of the cool stuff that I do in my normal daily life. Well, I'm going to be in the States in March. I could definitely swing by on the way to where I'm going. We could do one in person as well. You could be the first in person show. That'd be cool. Even better is like we should just set it up in like a really epic space. Like there's some really.

if you've seen on Nostra, I like post some evening photos from like where I do hikes at. So we should just like set shit up in a space like that and just like have this really epic pod at a spot. Do some mushrooms and talk some shit. That would be pretty epic. But I love you too. I love it. It was funny because last night I was thinking like you, you truly understand more than any other what Bitcoin has actually done. Like what show was Peter on when you joined?

Around just under 100, I think. I can't remember exactly. It would have been like at end of 2018, maybe the very start of 2019. Okay. So like you have now inherited the mantle of like you will know more than any other like what Bitcoin has actually done. I mean, maybe not. But that's because of like malfunctions in my brain. But excuse me. But you are one of the very first people to ever tell me I should do this on my own. So I appreciate all the support. Oh, absolutely, man. I'm really happy to see it. And I'm happy that I have a good pod. I can always come back and refer to. So I appreciate it just as much. There you go. Well, thank you, Eric. And I will see you in March then.

Absolutely, my friend.