What Bitcoin Did - The Plan to Put Bitcoin in Every Conversation | Seth For Privacy

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

“Your conversations and your money should not have to live in totally separate places.” Seth for Privacy is the COO of Cake Wallet and Radar, a Signal-compatible messenger combining encrypted conversations with self-custodial Bitcoin payments. In this episode, he explains why the next wave of Bitcoin adoption may begin inside an everyday messenger—not a standalone wallet. We discuss how Radar makes sending Bitcoin feel as natural as sending a message, why Spark made that experience possible, and the challenge of combining simple UX, privacy and self-custody at scale. Seth also breaks down Radar’s connection to the Signal network, its plans for fiat top-ups and stablecoins, and why compromising someone’s phone can defeat even the strongest encryption. We also get into Zcash’s historic counterfeiting vulnerability, Monero’s privacy model, Bitcoin privacy and how Silent Payments, PayJoin and better developer tools could make private, self-custodial Bitcoin practical for everyday users. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: LEDN SWAN ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE BITKEY CAPE FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/_DannyKnowles Seth for Privacy: https://x.com/sethforprivacy

I think what people don't really understand is no matter how practically strong the protocol is, if someone has root level access to your device, it doesn't matter. Because they can just get into whatever data exists for that app. So the core of what radar is is it's just fixing this idea of our money, at least money we actually control, self-custodial money, Bitcoin, and our conversations, especially conversations where we actually have privacy by default, where we know that what we talk about is not using, being used to train AI models, it's not being used to profile us and figure out who we are. Those two things have never collided. We're in a place that is kind of hard to imagine how good the tools have gotten on the Bitcoin side.

Like five years ago, if you told me all the things we would have today and how simple and seamless they would be while still retaining self-custody, like I would not have believed you, honestly. Your conversations and your money should not have to live in totally separate places and be very disconnected and have to do this copy-pay shuffle. If you're coming to radar because you're a bitcoiner, and that's the only people we draw in, we fail. The goal for us is really that this becomes something where people who don't care about Bitcoin and maybe even don't care about privacy are using radar simply because the user experience of how getting into the platform, how sending receiving money works, feels better than any competitor. Seth for privacy in Cleveland, man. How are you doing? I worked out nicely. I've a doctor to you there that we're in Cleveland, or are you okay to

me to say we're in Cleveland? No, I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. This street, I don't know if it's just this street or if it's just Cleveland. I got in last night. I've seen basically nothing here. But it feels like we're in a horror movie. This sounds like a relatively apt description of Cleveland. Let's just say it's not my favorite place on Earth. Like it's a place. It's getting better, but it's, yeah, it's not the best out there. When I went down into the basement to put my drying on, I wasn't sure I was going to come out. But how are you doing? I am doing well. I'm doing well. It has been a man, it's always busy. You know, you know how it is. I mean, you're you're not only doing all this all the time and like 100 podcasts a day, but you're flying all over the world to do them.

Same like events. I mean, I feel like April through June was just nuts events. Obviously, we've had this huge push with radar on top of cake wallet, all the things that we're doing there. Yeah, crazy busy. You've been hitting the podcast circuit hard as well. I have. It has been fun, like going back around the circuit. Like I feel like it kind of comes in waves. Yeah. You can need to do more about this.

Talk through a lot more Bitcoin privacy stuff. Talk through Spark has been really enjoyable because I love this. This is my favorite way to do podcasts because you get to do all the hard stuff. You come up with the questions, you do all the production, you do all the marketing. And I just sit down in a chair and drink some water and talk. Are you still doing your podcast? Technically, it exists. It's probably been like a year plus since I've done one.

That counts us no. Yeah, not really. It's like one of those. If I'm really inspired, I'll spend everything back up and do it again. It is something I need to do more often. I feel like 90% of my workflow now, I could just automate and have Claude do all of the other stuff outside of the actual recording.

So I could probably do more than I have been. But like, it's made me so much more efficient. Like I do so much with AI. I want to talk to you about AI, but we'll do that a little later. We should talk about radar because this is, so this is new. It's obviously a new business from Kate Quollett, but it's same team, right? It's you and Vic. Yeah, started by the same team kind of just to get it off the ground.

leadership team is the same. It's like Vic's C-O-N co-founder or C-O and founder. I'm C-O-O-O-O. And then our same C-T-O-O-MAR has come into the radar team. But outside of that, we're working on growing the team right now separately because it's a new business, a new model. A new model is a first for us for Vic and I. So it's been fun figuring out that model and a good time getting to work with ego death capital specifically. But yeah, from the same team is kind of the best way to phrase it because we got it off the ground and we'll drive it from a leadership perspective, but getting new devs and marketing and all that right now. So tell everyone what ROTR radar is. What have you built? Yeah, it's been a blast. It's this crazy thing where the actual concept is stupid simple. Like, I feel like a lot of times you get on to like pitch a new project and it's you got to go through like

10 years of history and the super complex problems that's solving. And I think something that's really nice about radar is it's just solving something that seems trivial, but it hasn't been done in the right way in a way that is truly freedom tech from both sides. So the core of what radar is is it's just fixing this idea of our money, at least money we actually control like self-custodial money, Bitcoin and our conversations, especially conversations where we actually have privacy by default, where we know that what we talk about is not using being used to train AI models, it's not being used to profile us and figure out who we are.

Those two things have never collided. Like we've had, Like we've had signal, we have Simplex, we have other really good messaging platforms right now, but none of them fixed the money side. And we obviously, we have fantastic tools for Bitcoin now. Like we're in a place that it's kind of hard to imagine how good the tools have gotten on the Bitcoin side. Like five years ago, if you told me all the things we would have today and how simple and seamless they would be while still retaining self-custody, like I would not have believed you honestly. I just feel like the Bitcoin wallet space was pretty rough four or five years ago at this point.

But the tools there have gotten so much better that we really just had a wake-up moment when we've deployed Spark for lightning and cake wallet. Like our whole team, we're heavy signal users. All of our off-topic stuff is in signal. Signal is our backup for all of our team conversations. If we have issues with Slack, it's all of my primary comms for the business dev side relationships in the space. So we've always been huge, huge signal users and advocates. But the ability to just send money in the place you're already chatting with. people is something that is really incredible when you start to use it.

And the tools on Bitcoin got good enough finally that we could do that in a way that didn't you didn't have to sacrifice self-custody to do it. And you also didn't have to sacrifice like, oh God, this user experience is terrible. Yeah, which has been the case for such a long time. Exactly. Exactly. So it's really bringing those two things together where like your, your conversations and your money should not have to live in totally separate places and be very disconnected and have to do this copy pay shuffle. You should just be able to, if you're chatting about that meal that you just had last night with a friend and

you need to pay them back, why do you have to go to Venmo or PayPal and then, oh, what's your username, what your cash tag? Okay, let me send that. Why do you have to go to Phoenix wallet and make the payment from there and get an invoice from them first and hopefully it's the right one and your wallet supports it? Like get away from all of that complexity, but still retain self-custody, still retain pretty good privacy on the payment side. Obviously, we can talk about that. And doing it in a way that's just stupid seamless it's really good like I think they're probably the closest we've had to that would be zaps on Noster obviously a different use case that's like generally used as like a social media tool having that in with inside something as private as signal would be incredible like that's really

really cool I use signal for as much communication as I can I try and get absolutely everything over there because it's like great privacy but also it just works like all the other chats that you would use um so how are you using signal yeah so under the hood uh I I think the best way to explain it is that we're signal compatible. Like radar works on the signal network so that you can still chat with all of your signal contacts. And that anybody who comes over to radar, you can make payments as well. How does that work? So is the signal protocol open source and separate to like the signal app that you download on your phone?

Yeah. So the signal protocol itself is open. The signal apps themselves are open source, specifically a GPLV3 for the open source license nerds out there. The actual network itself is run by Signal. So like they have their own servers, their own infrastructure, they run all of that. But they have protocol itself is totally open source in the apps are as well, which is good. That's always how something like this should be, especially at a protocol level.

It needs to be open source and run by foundations. I think Signal have done a good job with that. And so you could just bolt onto their network and build this on top of it. Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the very nice things about how they built it is it is quite easy to build around. And something that we discovered really early on. when we were building this was Signal had launched this mobile coin cryptocurrency a while back because like six years ago now.

They've tried to make everyone forget about it, I think. Yeah, it kind of doesn't exist anymore. Like it technically does. But the cool thing about it is because they built all that out, they built out all these rails within the Signal protocol and the apps themselves to be able to do payments. Obviously, they're built around mobile coin, but a crypto payment is a crypto payment. We can use the same things for Lightning or Spark to Spark payments specifically. specifically within radar.

So that made it also a lot easier because we didn't have to do something that wouldn't be compatible with the broader signal network, we didn't have to do some custom side channel or something like that. We were able to really ride those rails and do it easier than we expected, honestly out of the gate because of that.

So I've got a question that this one, it's like a bit of a tricky one. Yeah. I donate to Signal, like I do the monthly subscription and we just donate money. Because they have huge costs in terms of running their servers. I think it's an awesome product.

like I'll give them as much money as they want. Like every time they come out with a new product, I basically buy it even if I don't necessarily need it. Yeah. So they did their chat backup recently, subscribe to that. How does this work? Because you're not paying the server cost. Like how does the relationship between you and signal work?

Yeah. So the way that we've approached it is that that we understand, A, we are going to bring some user costs to them if people are using radar and it's using the underlying signal network. And B, we understand the value of what? they've built like like I said like we are very hardcore signal users I've been pushing people to signal for almost a decade now all my friends and family are on there I understand the cost they come with that so the way we've approached it is that

that we've already been donating to signal to make sure that we're far more than covering user costs and it's something that we're gonna ramp up at the same time because we want to make sure that it's not just like we don't want it to be like net neutral like hey we're just barely going to cover costs and then you deal with everything else we understand that that they are doing so much more and that the foundation's ability, especially to continue iterating the signal protocol and building the network as a whole is something that is really, really important. So we kind of view it, like we want it to be a rising tide that lifts all votes. So donations are core part of that, but also users that get on

radar are also getting on signal as a network, which is a boon for them at the same time. That's very cool. How do you make money? So right now there's not a built-in profit model into radar. Obviously we have plans for that. the goal right now was just to get a really clean payments experience out. We didn't want to complicate it with anything else at the moment. And the goal long term is always to keep it very simple and very clean. Like we're not cake wallet lets you do a million things like silent payments, page 1B2, you can't use Spark, on chain.

Like there's so many different options for what you do in there. We will not make radar that. Like very intentionally radar is supposed to be simple and intuitive and easy to use. So we'll keep it like that. In terms of profit model long term, the simple one is just obviously if you're not a Bitcoiner already, like we envision radar being something where Bitcoin native people are just the like the tier one audience. Like that's where we start. That's obviously where we already have reach.

Those are the people who are likely already using signal in some way. And they're using Bitcoin. So they can onboard by just sending in a lighting payment and they're done. When we get past that tier one audience, obviously we need people to be able to top up just like they would top up, Cash app, Venmo, PayPal, whatever. And so they'll be just sending dollars and stable coins and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be primarily topping up with dollars, getting in that way. Obviously, we'll take a small fee on that.

And then stable coin support is something that we're already working on. We already have kind of the bones of that in place behind the scenes to let people not only top up from other stable coins and just have it auto converted to stable coins on Spark, which is a really nice feature. And one of the reasons why we wanted to go with Spark specifically under the hood for this. But then also let people, if they need to, to make external payments to other stable coins, stable coins on other chains at the same time. And then those swaps obviously will take a small fee on as well. So simple profit model in the short term, I would say have some bigger plans on other ways that we can we can approach this on the long term as well.

It definitely makes sense to start with Bitcoin. When I speak to anyone, if they're in Bitcoin, they probably have signal anyone else probably doesn't. Like it's getting better. And I feel like, like, I mean, me personally, I'm pushing everyone I know to use it because it's just where I want more my conversation to be. I want to install it and see how it all works. Let's do it live. Just quickly before we do that though, can we talk about the Tucker Carlson signal telegram thing? Because that's one of the few, when I do talk to normal people about trying to get them on signal and stuff, that is still a hangover, I think. Yeah. I thought it was hacked. Yeah, exactly. People saying that the security model and signals not actually as good as people think

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like with how he approaches what he does, has been a heavy signal user, as most people in high-profile, potentially targeted environments are, like signals first adopters were really that, that type of user and it's branched out far beyond that um i thought it was funny the other day i was listening to like a basketball podcast that i like and they were talking about that they should move the group chat over to signal because they were they were talking about things that they didn't want in

the public about basketball players like i just thought that was like funny i think we're kind of through the only hardcore people use it idea well that's as chat gets completely cracked down upon by states all over the world yeah yeah that helps push people for sure um but yeah so tucker Carlson, really heavy user, he was using it for all of the people who wanted to be like whistleblowers, that sort of thing. They're reaching out to Amman Signal. And it came out that some of his chats had been revealed, some info about what he'd been chatting about had been revealed. I think this was around the time of the Putin interview. Is that right? I think so. Yeah, it was like right after that, that he broke this story about what had happened. But I think the common confusion is always that

people assume what data was leaked was the source of the leak. And they tie those things together always. And that's almost never the case. I mean, if you look at like he was using Signal on iOS specifically, if you are a high profile journalist and you're using any sort of device, you need to assume that you are actively trying to be compromised. Hopefully he was using lockdown mode on his iPhone. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't.

And he was targeted by something like Pegasus where they did an OS level attack, some IMessage Zero Day. or something like that, got access to his device. And then I think what people don't really understand is no matter how practically strong the protocol is, if someone has root level access to your device, it doesn't matter because they can just get into whatever data exists for that app. Whenever you open the app, they can screenshot the screen as you go, even if they can't expultrate the data specifically.

So I think it's overwhelmingly likely that that's what happened. And they had an OS level breach of his device and they were able to get those chats from there. The other alternative is things we've seen like the U.S. government where they add the wrong person to a chat and that person leaks the info. And it's like if you add someone who's not good into your chats, it is into encrypted. But one of the ends is that person who maybe is not trustworthy. They can screenshot the app. They can infiltrate whatever they want from the chats that they're in. That's another possibility.

But I think an OS level attack is most likely. There's absolutely no evidence that there is a breach of signals protocol in any way. and it's very cutting edge, very, like, complex from how it provides privacy, but extremely well vetted from how the protocol itself actually works. And no reason to think that there actually was a compromise. But obviously, it's a much better story to talk about signal compromise than, oh, I was just one of thousands of journalists this year that got hit with Pegasus or something like that. Yeah.

I did a long interview with JSR about Pegasus, and it seems like the most obvious, like, possible thing. It's probably the most controversial interview in a decade with one of the most controversial people in the world. Like to think that they're not trying to infiltrate your phone and get information. Like, of course. Of course they are. And what about the desktop side, though? Because there were desktop security issues with Signal not that long ago. Yeah, it's interesting. Like you have to treat the desktop apps a little bit differently.

Obviously, that they're using the same intent encrypted protocol. a lot of what people think about security is that desktops are more secure and safe and mobile devices are less secure and safe. Because you do so much on your mobile phone and maybe you don't on your desktop, I think a lot of people have a false sense of security on their desktop. Well, the opposite is definitely true. Like, yes, we just talked about attacks on iOS, Pegasus. But those are nation-state level, undisclosed, incredibly complex zero days that they would never use on a regular person. Yeah. your desktop being poned is something that happens to regular people all the time because desktop OS is outside of macOS macOS is probably the only exception to that are much much easier to to attack and to hack into you that's why i think signal have made a good decision in that the the desktop apps themselves are much simpler and they're really just a relay for messages like the way that they work under the hood is they're just a linked device with your signal or radar app and they just pass messages back and forth and you can send messages

messages from them, but they work a little bit differently. But you do need to, if you, if the actual info in the messages that you're sending is that critical, that you need to make sure that a device breach on your desktop does not reveal that information, then it would probably be best just not to use the desktop apps at that point. They're really just a convenience thing too. Like you can't use just the desktop app anyways. You have to use the mobile app and link it to the desktop app. So again, if you're a very high profile actor, you should be using something like iOS

in lockdown mode with signal only on that one. one device and don't link it to any other devices. But they really are like the more edge cases. Yeah. Because was the problem that they were keeping chats in plain text format on your desktop? Yeah, it was the way that they actually stored the database behind the scenes. Like normally you would think of vulnerabilities or something like that being if I have the app open and someone has a hack into my device that I have malware or something like that,

then they have access to what I've been chatting about or they can screenshot it as I go or they can they can key log and see what I type out or what I copy and paste, that sort of thing. But yeah, the main issue was, and I'm a little fuzzy on the detail because it was quite a long time ago, was the actual database even when the app was closed, was something that other apps could read easier than they were supposed to. That has been resolved as of a long time ago. I think that's probably a year plus since they resolved that, at least. But it was one of those downsides. I will give them a little bit of a break as well, though, in that the ability to

securely store data on desktop apps is quite poor. You essentially have to always roll your own and do it yourself. Whereas if you're using something on iOS or Android, there's really good native tooling to use the secure enclaves that mobile phones have that desktops and laptops generally don't have access to. And so actual actual secure data storage on mobile OS is much easier and essentially built in. Whereas on desktop, you have to roll your own and you have to make sure that you do it at a very careful, very cautious way. We run in the same thing. with K-Wallet where like we can't rely on the desktop level security in any way. So even if there is something like a secure enclave, we can't build around just that.

Because what about a user who's using a 10-year-old laptop that doesn't have that? You have to take very different assumptions when you're talking about desktop level security than mobile security. So will you guys not be doing a desktop app? The plane is definitely to do one. I mean specifically obviously for radar. Yeah, yeah. The plan is definitely to do one. I mean the low-hanging fruit is Mac OS. Like technically we could ship that right now. We want to polish it a bit more, just to make the UI a little bit better. But macOS is the easiest one.

The nice thing right now that we realized is, again, because we're compatible with the signal network and protocol, you can link radar with the signal desktop apps. So just for the messaging side, you can use that right now. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that works totally out of the gate. Like, I've been using radar behind the scenes for at least six months now. I'll link to the signal desktop app, which is where I do a lot of the chatting, because obviously what I'm working, I'm using Signal a lot for work.

So that works right now. So we don't like have to ship something, but obviously the downside is Signal's desktop apps don't support payments at all. So we would like for users to be able to have that full functionality directly from the desktop and not have to go to their phone to actually send or receive a payment. Got you. I've got some feature requests for you.

So I'm on radar now. I just sent you 10,000 sats. I mean, it looks very, very similar to Signal. Obviously, slightly different, but very cool. You said 10,000. It's only 1,000. Oh, sorry. Short, I'll send you another 9,000 now. I was trying to do a podcast at the same time, to be fair. So some of the things that I do use on Signal, like I use the chat backup. This is, we have like a group chat with my family where all the baby pictures go. They're important pictures, so I don't want to lose those. Does my backup on Signal still work if I'm using radar?

It does. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, for clarity, so we were using the open source mobile apps, AG built, AGPLV3 like I mentioned before, and modifying them to add in payments. So we've kept as much as we can the same for now of the rest of the mobile app. So it does still work with their encrypted backups. It works best with their cloud backups, the thing that they've been rolling out over the last year roughly. That you can pay for, you don't have to pay for. I think a lot of people are a little confused about that one as well.

Yeah, I'll pay them for everything. It's like $2 a month. Yeah. It's worth paying for just to support them. Yeah, exactly. So I do recommend paying for it. The difference is, I think the free plan, you get like 45 days of data and chat backups. And the paid plan, it's unlimited.

So you'll get all of your chat history back immediately. But yeah, those are fully compatible. Obviously, we worked really hard to make sure that we kept up with compatibility there. So when you go and you actually install radar, you'll have like a migrate to signal option. You choose that. You'd say, I have a backup. and then we'll be able to see that backup, ask for your recovery key, which is what decryps it. You'll enter that.

And then all your chats will back as they were before. Obviously, with the limitation of if you chose the free plan, you'll only have the last 45 days. If you're doing the paid plan, you'll have all of it. The one caveat that we've noticed is for some reason, they lock down the paid backups for like making paid backups to their actual app ID. So we can't offer you paying signal for backups. which is a little frustrating because like we wanted to keep that monetization method for them. Yeah, yeah. We don't want to take that money. Like the goal was to keep that. If you ever hit

donate or support or anything within radar, it's all going to signal. Like we have no interest in that. We want to make sure people are still supporting signal the underlying foundation. But you can't sign up for and pay for paid backups in radar because they've locked it down to their app ID. But you can still restore paid backups in radar and then you can use the free backups at the same time within radar. So that that still works. Very cool. So my feature request that you can't do in signal, and this is most likely a privacy thing, I would imagine, but I would really like it is the ability to automatically download, like to my photos folder from certain groups. Like I definitely don't want it for everything. But like when I talk about like the baby pictures in that, my family group, like I would love them just to automatically download to my photos. Can we add that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, definitely could do that. I hadn't thought about that, but that would be good for us to.

because like the only privacy or freedom tech thing I've been able to convert my family to is Signal. So like all of my family chats are all in Signal. One of my favorite things that we've done is we basically replaced social media, which used to be like how my parents would keep up with us and we'd keep up with my parents. And like all of that would happen on Facebook. And I got off Facebook six, seven years ago at this point, deleted it and totally done with it. And finally got everybody migrated over. So it's really cool because we have a family chat that like is what social media should be. We talk about what we're doing. We share pictures, but it's just our family. And it's not like me posting that what I'm doing. So my family will see it. And then like the

world can see it for some reason. It never made any sense. Or like here's a baby picture. And like your mom likes it and comments on it. And like what what world are we living in? Like why is this not directly happening? So that is that feature would be awesome there too. Because that's, that's pretty much how our family does everything as well. Like all the baby pictures, pictures of like my kids cousins and all that are happening in there. So that'd be a It'd be nice to be able to have that. I'll wait for that one to drop then. Doing it live.

Doing it live. So maybe a better example for what you're trying to do here with Radar would be like X money because they're obviously, I think they've made their chats end-to-end encrypted. I think it's not open source, so we don't really know what's happening there. But now they're bringing X money along, kind of trying to do what you're doing essentially with Radar, but keeping everyone on platform and X. And they're also doing things like, I think they're offering 6% on cash deposits, which I don't know how they're doing.

For now. That seems pretty high. But like, how do you compare? compete against a company like that? Because network effect is obviously huge there. Yeah. I mean, it definitely, it definitely will be tricky because you end up having a similar problem to like, how does Bitcoin compete with PayPal, which obviously has been like the conversation for 15 years now. Yeah. And the reality is that like, unless a huge, a user is either ideologically driven or forcibly removed from the legacy financial system, they're probably

not going to switch to something that is more self-sovereign unless it is better in some other clear, critical way. Yeah. And I think like an example of that would be as X seems to get more and more regulated and starts to implement more and more ID requirements and starts to, I mean, them doing X money, I think is going to continue to push them into having to actually identify users who, especially if you want to do X money. I mean, you will have to go. up your idea like it's a bank. I think that will push a lot of people out just purely because of the friction that comes with that. Yes, once you're in that system, I think the ability like you'll be able to, I'm sure, tip people's tweets and all of that stuff that's going to come later on.

That will be nice. But if you have to do all the KYC friction just to get into the system and use it, I think that friction will push people to something like radar. But I think the reality is the onus is on us as builders to make it where it's an actually better experience. Like if you're coming to radar, because you're a bitcoiner and that's the only people we draw in, we fail. Like quite honestly, yes, it will still be a good tool. But the goal for us is really that this becomes something where people who don't care about Bitcoin and maybe even don't care about privacy are using radar simply because the user experience of how getting into the platform, how sending receiving money works,

feels better than any competitor. And I think the vision has already been laid out by how incredibly well signal have done with that where the vast majority of their users, I would argue, have no interest in user privacy and have no clue what the protocol is. They don't know anything about that. They just use it because it's a really good user experience. Do you think it is the best example of freedom tech reaching sort of the broad world? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's undeniable. I mean, you could you could obviously argue that Bitcoin is, but I would expect there are many orders of magnitude more signal users than there are self-custodial Bitcoin users who use it for payments regularly at least.

Yeah, I think it is the best example because they just, they, they made decisions that were really controversial, like keeping the phone number requirement, because they understood that the thing that they needed to build was not the most hardcore solution possible. It was not the maybe, maybe poor phrasing, but it wasn't the most freedom tech, freedom tech that they could build. Like that would be a simple X or something, but you see how successful signal have been because they've kept it very simple. Yeah. Yeah, and like they've obviously they've taken a lot of crap for keeping phone number requirement in, for other choices that they've made over the years, for how the foundation is run. And yet they've been sustainable.

They've built something that has a lot of users that don't care about the underlying ideology or concept. And it's because of that, like, that ability to decide where is compromise actually beneficial to the end goal? And where do we stop the compromise is really, really important. Like something that stuck with me is Francis from Bull Bitcoin. I don't want to bring up Bull Bitcoin so much on this one. But Francis from Bull Bitcoin did a presentation, I think two years ago at BDC Prague.

And it was basically about this idea of like when we're building Bitcoin services and tools, how do we know what to compromise on and how far we can go. And he had this really interesting chart to me that talked about how like the user experience, you can compromise up to a certain point. And then you can keep compromising and get better user experience, but you'll lose all of the freedom that comes with it. But there is this little bit that we, bit that we have to be willing to figure out what can we compromise on and not be in this mindset

of it has to be the most hardcore, most technically superior tool. We need a bike shed until we get to the most perfect solution, but rather like what's the thing that we can do to make this work? And like the phone number requirement for instance, it's in Signal. It seems terrible until you actually think through and you start figuring out how are we going to address spam within a protocol like this. How are we going to address malicious users? And no one else has solved that. I think there are some interesting ways we can solve that. And Bitcoin is honestly the best solution for that, especially now that Bitcoin Lightning is so approachable. You can do spam prevention with micro payments, which is something that we've been digging into just in case. But that is a

really good example of that. And I think they're by far the best solution, the best example of freedom tech that is kind of gone more mainstream as the one I always bring up at the same time. Yeah. And I totally agree that if it's just Bitcoin is like, it's not done enough. Like we need this to get broader. Why do you think the companies like X have haven't looked, or maybe they have looked at it, but haven't implemented anything with Bitcoin in terms of, especially if like, if the goal of X money or part of the goal of X money is to have tipping on tweets and stuff, which I think it is, it's to build that like circular economy sort of thing.

Like, I'm sure Elon's looked at Noster. And I think he probably has because of Jack. Sure. And he must see that as like a huge revenue option. Like if he's taking a small percentage of every, you know, tip tweet, like that's a lot of money. Yeah. Why not just use Bitcoin? Why go through the rigmarole of doing X money? I think the biggest reason over the years has just been that if you actually like if you just wanted to do custodial Bitcoin, obviously they could they could do that. That's just as easy for

them as X money may be easier. It depends on how you look at it on there from their perspective. But if you wanted to do self custodial payments in a way that was not like extremely painful for users on Bitcoin, I just don't think that was really possible until about six months ago. Until Spark. Really until Spark and now Arcade and Second are there as well. There's some caveats there in terms of user experience, but you can paper over a lot of those. And I think it was that we had kept thinking about Lightning as like we're just going to iterate on top of the way that the tech works as a whole and we'll get to the point where it's good enough. And thankfully finally we like the community said like we have to shift the perspectives.

What's another way that we can do this and work around the pain points that are coming with lightning. So I think part of the problem is like if you talk about X money, I'm sure this has been in the works for years. Yeah, since he took over a problem. Probably maybe even before that, who knows if that was a thing that was already in the works before he even took over X. And when you're talking about that, like they're not going to work on something for three years or whatever. And then a new technology built around Bitcoin comes out. They're not going to ship that. Yeah. Like there's no way. So I think that is the biggest problem has been that there was just no real way for them to do a user-friendly self-custodial Bitcoin approach that would have been something

that they would have wanted to ship to their users until very recently. But that was the huge breakthrough for us was like we were approaching 2 million users in K-Quallet now. We're well over half a million lightning users at this point from what we can tell. The only visibility we have is just how many lightning usernames people have created custom ones. And like my lightning PTSD, I was terrified of what that launch was going to look like. And Spark obviously has other tradeoffs, which we can get into if you want, but still to me ticks the box of self-custody, unilateral exit, things that are really important for that. And it was just incredibly smooth compared to what everything else has always been when you talk about deploying lightning.

And you talk about being able to do micropayments, stable coins as well on Bitcoin using Spark. And that was just a wake-up moment of like, we've actually got. in there finally. We've talked about that we're there, but we only really had like one wallet that was user-friendly that could do Lightning and even it had a ton of drawbacks, Phoenix. And so that shift, I think, will now enable people to build things like X money, even when they're not ideologically Bitcoiners, but because of the U.X that can bring. But it's going to be sort of a long tail. Because if you're building something like that for a platform with however many users X has at this point, you're not going to implement some cutting-edge tech on Bitcoin. You're going to weigh it until

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I honestly don't know why you'd use any other network. You can head over to over to cape.co forward slash wbd and use the code wbd for 33% off your first six months that's c a p.e.com forward slash wbd so when you talk about the you said the tradeoffs of phoenix that's like liquidity requirements and all that kind of stuff yeah mainly that inbound liquidity requirement and the the way that offline payments works okay the two main hurdles i think that we've seen so you're using spark on the back end to do all of this um let's talk about spark a little bit because um How are you using it? And then let's get into the trade-offs of using it.

Yeah, I mean, really simple, again, the theme of radar is simplicity. Under the hood, all of the payments are Spark to Spark payments. So if you, let's say you top up initially by sending in a Lightning payment, that's being atomically swapped from Lightning to a leaf, which is essentially the UTXO of Spark. And you hold your balance on Spark within Radar. So obviously we use the terminology Lightning. I know it's not technically accurate, but it's the best way to describe it to the broader Bitcoin audience.

And then we're more specific about Spark and docs and when we talk about it on podcasts and stuff like that for the people who actually know what Spark is. So yeah, everything inbound and outbound if you're making a lightning payment or receiving a lightning payment, that's happening the atomic swaps with Spark. And then every payment within radar

is actually just spark to spark. We could technically do lightning, but then you'd just be going Spark, lightning back to Spark and spending extra fees and making it take longer. And there was just absolutely no reason to do that. So yeah, everything within is Spark to Spark. So does that mean that you can do both on chain payments and Lightning to fund the wallet?

Yeah, yeah, you can. The really nice thing with Spark and Arc is that you can onboard and off board directly from on chain if you want. And it actually provides the in Spark specifically, well, in Arc as well, it provides the best trust tradeoffs if you are onboarding from layer one directly because it means that you're the one who we'll get into the tradeoffs more there. But it gives you a better set of trust tradeoffs if you do deposit from layer one. And you can always withdraw to layer one at the same time.

And there's no fee around that either other than obviously the on chain fee that you have to pay for the transaction. And that's a really nice point there. I think it's definitely going to be rare that that's used because if you're the tier one audience, like you're already a bit coiner, you're probably already using lightning. It's easiest to just top up from lightning. But it's obviously something we want to want to support, especially if you're like you're using radar a ton and your friends have all paid you back and you need some you need some cash. You can withdraw to L1 to Coinbase or whatever and and sell it.

So you're Seth for privacy, not Seth for UX. What are the privacy tradeoffs of Spark? Because I know these are like technically self custodial wallets, but what can they see in the background? Like how can net track payments? Like how does that work? Yeah. So the easiest way to describe Spark's privacy is really. to view it as like a VPN provider model where you're gaining good privacy from outside observers.

No one else, even your counterparty, can see other transactions that you've made within the Spark ecosystem. There's no block explorer, no one can look you up and see the transactions that you've made. If you send a receiving a lightning payment, there's no way for them to know who the underlying user is. They would just see that it's going to Spark's LSP and they would know nothing else. So it provides very good privacy from outside observers as long as Spark do not reveal transaction information. So because it's that VPN provider model, you're trusting them not to reveal that info. They are logging that info. They need to keep state. So just like Bitcoin, everything goes on a blockchain within Spark. Everything has state within the Spark system. So all of the Spark operators

are keeping that state. So they know everything about transactions. They're just choosing not to reveal that and that's something that we waited to deploy Spark and Cake until that was an option because at first like Wallet of Satoshi launched with Spark and for some reason they chose not to hide any of that information. So everybody's transactions got published to a block explorer for Spark and your Spark address was embedded in all of your lightning invoices. So you would reveal everything about yourself every time you received a lightning payment. Not great. Yeah, not great and not the way it needed to be. That was a poor choice on their part. I've no idea why they chose that. But now Wall of Satoshi had fixed that and Cake we waited to deploy until we could do that in that VPN provider model.

And then radar, obviously, we adopted the same thing. So that's the most important distinction is the Spark operators see everything about transactions. Obviously, they don't know your ID. They don't know anything about that you're even using it within Radar. They just know that it's a Spark payment. And they certainly don't know anything about who you're paying within Radar. Like, you paid me. Spark themselves have literally no clue that that was between me and you or that was even

radar related. which I think is a really important piece here is the kind of the separation of visibility throughout radar is really good where no one entity has access to all of the things that are happening with payments and messages and network connections so why did you pick this rather than like cashew or something which obviously doesn't have the benefit of being self-custodial but it has the privacy benefit yeah I mean it's it's a really good really good question and it's something that I've been kind of like battling with of which is more important and it's It's frustrating that we have to choose.

Do I want near perfect privacy that eCash as a whole can bring? Or do I want self-custody and okay privacy, which something like Spark can bring? Or even like a Federman. Yeah, but still would be in the eCash custodial. Like yes, it's a better custodian because at least it's not a single custodian. It's certainly a better solution. But that is the, it's really frustrating that we have to make that choice. I'm certainly hoping to get to a place where we don't have to have to.

have to make that choice. Like even within Spark, there are ways that light spark, the people who are designing it can build it with blind signing so that they actually wouldn't know anything about transactions. And we've been pushing them really hard to do that. They are going to bring some more privacy tech like shielded amounts on transfers at the very least. But there are ways we could get there. For me, the biggest piece of why it needed to be self-custodial over being perfectly private is just the sustainability and longevity of something like this. I imagine as an American company, you probably couldn't run the cashew mint as well.

You'd have to trust someone else to do that. Yeah, I mean, theoretically, we could, but it would be dangerous. Like, you don't want to be that one, especially when you're talking, we're not talking like a vibe-coded cashew wallet that's going to ship to 100 people. Like the goal here is tens of millions of users.

Yeah. Which means very high profile. When you talk about like, there was this whole Bitcoin for Signal campaign like 12 months ago. Yeah. Really interesting, really well done. Cali kicked that off. He's been the main guy behind Cashew, the single custodian approach to eCash. And even like Jack Dorsey and tons of others are getting in on trying to push Signal to adopt Bitcoin.

But the thing that I raised immediately when that campaign went live was the goal of the campaign was to get them to adopt Cashew, eCash, within Signal. But practically what that would mean would be that Signal would become a custodian for all of their user's funds. And Signal already have by far the highest profile target on their back of any Freedom Tech provider right now. Absolutely. If you're building Freedom Tech, Signal are the ones facing the most headwinds constantly battling politicians and battling regulators and having to deal with so much stuff that comes with just being a privacy preserving chat app. Like just that is enough. If you also add in, oh, now you're also a custodian, so you're a money services broker. Way too much risk.

There's just no way they would ever want to do that. So if they didn't want to do that, then who are they going to choose to be the custodian for all their users? Because if that person rub pulls or just has an issue and users lose all their money, signals reputation goes down. So the core issue for that was it was just never going to be sustainable at their scale, even though the privacy is fantastic. So I'm hoping someday we get to a place where we can do something that is still self-custodial like Spark

but has at least much better privacy. Like we'll never get e-cash levels of privacy because you necessarily can't. The way the e-cash works, you can never do completely in something like Spark, but you could get close to it and get, I think, good enough privacy, which would be a fantastic development.

Is there a weird thing here where your success could almost mean the end of your business in some ways? Like because if Signal watch what you do, you get a load of users, people are using Bitcoin on there a lot. They could just implement the same thing. Yeah. Is that a win? Depends on if you're asking me or if you're asking RVC investors.

I don't know. Like for me, the ideologue part of me would count that as a win for sure. Like I'm not in this for the money. Like the thing that I love that I can work at K can be able to work at radar is like we're actually able to build cutting edge freedom tech and chip it to a lot of you. users and that is just invigorating to me to build something that's really being used. And if we could push, like give them incentive and motivation to ship Bitcoin payments that are self-custodial within Signal, I would be happy with that.

I would definitely see it as a way. Yeah. I mean, to me, that would be a huge win if 150 million monthly active users woke up one day and they saw, hey, do you want to use Bitcoin payments and one tap enable it and top up from debit card? Like that would be a win in my opinion in terms of. human freedom, which is more important to me than the companies I'm building, honestly, which I probably shouldn't say as someone who's building companies. I think they could be happy

that you say it. Yeah, it's just it's yeah, that would be a win for me. Obviously, it would be frustrating because of all the time that we spent building it, but what better way to, to drive a company to do something that I think they need to do anyways? Yeah. Then by proving out the model itself. So it would be a win. It would be sad for some, for some reasons, but overall, yeah, that'd be awesome. It's a win for humanity. So you're using Spark. The other big question around Spark that I see people talking about a lot is the unilateral exit. It's obviously available, but I've seen people having issues with it and finding it hard.

I've never tried. I don't know how it even works. So how is that a problem that we have? Yeah. So there's a broader issue that people need to understand about unilateral exit in any of these systems, Spark or Arc. And then there's a specific one for Spark. So I think the first one to raise is the most important one. Where unilateral exit simply means that you can exit without anyone's permission,

it does not mean that you exiting on chain will be economically viable. In all of these systems, it will always be drastically more expensive to unilaterally exit than it would be to naturally withdraw because you're having to submit massive amounts of transactions just to get back single UTXO, single leafs from Spark. like an example I saw and I'm probably going to misquote the number, but someone exiting from Spark to get like 18 leaves back had to make 90 transactions on chain because you're having to unroll the whole tree of how these leaves are stacked atop of each other and the chain of how they've been spent between users.

And so it gets very expensive. It is possible. And like even for that example, basically his findings were some of his leaves. there was just, it would cost more to exit them than to just give up on them. So a lot of the decision making and how the process works has to happen behind the scenes on the designers side, the app builder side to figure out what is actually worth exiting and what's not. But that is always a caveat with any of these systems.

The same is true of Arc. Spark is more expensive in the way that it's built to unilaterally exit, but it's definitely possible. That being said, even if it's more expensive, it has to be possible. because obviously if you, especially if you put larger amounts into there and the Spark operators wake up one day and just decide, I don't want to do this anymore, or they have an issue and all of them get deleted, or a nation state comes after them and shuts them down, you obviously need to get your money back. And that's where this is very important. The specific copyout with Spark right now is you can do it, but you have to do it via a CLI app. Like you have to go into the CLI, import your seed. It downloads the state that you need to be able to do that from one of the Spark operators.

So in practice, it's not really unilateral exit yet. I'll just be completely honest. It's the ability to exit as long as any of these spark operators are up, and there's three of them right now. That's okay. Obviously, that's not ideal. We were supposed to have full unilateral exit months ago, and it's very complex in both Spark and Arc.

So they've been working on it. We're probably, I'm going to say the meme because it's actually the right amount of time. We're probably two weeks out from proper unilateral exit that actually keeps all of the state that you need, that doesn't rely on any spark operator to get the information you need. And also does all those calculations about what can I exit, what can't I exit to maximize the amount I get out rather than to maximize the amount of leaves I get out. I just want to maximize the amount of stats I get out.

So that will be coming. So it's not in radar right now, just like it's not in KQaeda right now. But you can do it through the CLI app with that one caveat at the moment. So is it fair enough to say that it's okay for now and needs to get a lot better? Yeah, I would, yeah, even okay for now feels like maybe a little bit too generous. Like obviously it's not the way that I want it to be and not the way it should be, but it just is the reality right now. And I think it for the for the most likely solution,

which would be that some Spark operator has a problem unless the system can't send payments, but you still want to exit, which is the most common or the most possible one right now. It's fine for now, but certainly needs to get better. We've been pushing really hard on Spark and Breeze to to ship that. And like I said, they are actually getting really close.

we're watching the PRs right now. A lot of the building blocks are already in place. Is Spark like your final destination with this? Is this what the Bitcoin payments will always look like on radar? Obviously it depends. I mean, like we've always been willing and able to implement cutting edge tech in cake and now in radar. So like obviously we're open to shifting to something else. I've been very closely monitoring both arc implementations for a long time. Like we were initially going to ship Arcade in Cake. And then once I actually did a really deep dive

into Arc versus Spark, it became clear to me that just Spark is the better, more propagonic solution right now for the average user. But that could change. I think the one specific way that that would change would be that if we got Covenants in Bitcoin, which I don't think is ever gonna happen, unfortunately. But if we did, let's just say in this mythical.

We might ever get anything again in Bitcoin. Yeah, I don't think we are. There's a reason I don't really bother talking about them that much. But if we got Covenants, they would essentially solve all of the remaining UX hurdles that exist in ARC and would make it where ARC is just the better solution because you'd have slightly better trust tradeoffs with the same UX where right now in reality, Spark has slightly better trust tradeoffs

than ARC does with a better UX as well. But that would flip if we got Covenants and we're able to do to do the things that arc needs in a little bit cleaner of a way. So always open to that and one of the like one of the beautiful things this is it's Bitcoin under the hood. So if we woke up one day and ARC was clearly the better solution or whatever the next thing is is a better solution, we could build that out and migrate our users by just sending a lighting payment from their old wallet to their new wallet and done. Like there's, there is no, there's no vendor lock in any way. There's not even layer two lock in in reality because you can always get out, you know, letter to exit. You can always exit on-chain if they're

still online or you can just make a lighting payment and migrate users balance with their consent, of course very cool i i'm definitely going to use this i'll uh i'll be your bug checker i'll see if we find anything please bring me in my new features as well that'd be awesome yes um let's talk a little bit more about sort of bitcoin privacy and chip coin privacy yeah um zcash has had a lot of hype so i i i was saying to you before we started this show i i really struggle i don't really pay any attention to other spaces like i just don't have the time but i obviously saw like the the Silicon Valley pushed for Zcash over the last 12 months or however long it's been. Yeah.

Can you just fill me in like everything that's happened? Like I know that the VCs have been pushing this hard. I know that there was then a flaw in Zcash that was found. Like what's happened? Oh, man. Yeah. Quite honestly, I thought Zcash was kind of like done. I did too.

I thought I did too. I did too. We had moved on like the world had simplified. We just understood like you have your Bitcoin. You have your stable coins. You have your Minero. Like we're good guys. We're good.

And then, yeah, they were resurrected. And suddenly every influencer and meme coiner on the planet woke up one day and loved Zcash. Yep. And started talking about it completely organically. Of course. Yeah, completely organically. Just stumbled upon it again after 10 years and discovered this new, newfangled project. It wasn't in some pumping up group chat.

There's no way. Yeah, there was no. There was definitely no coordinated paid KOL campaign going online scenes. Honestly, that was the kickstart of it. Like, I don't know what it was that drove. like why suddenly there was a desire from Zcash companies? Because there's not really that big of a Zcash community. There is one, but they're not that huge.

It's really the companies behind them, Jim and I, the Zcash actual company. It's those players that are the ones that have been driving this. And it seems like they just decided, let's try one more time and see if we can revive Zcash. And they're, the pump at least worked so far. price went up. It's it stayed up relative to where it was before. That was really interesting to see everything that I can see behind the scenes was that it was just absolutely a paid marketing campaign. Even know the the amount technically that was spent on it. But the interesting thing that happened after that, obviously was there was this big push.

Everybody wanted to decash again suddenly. It got into the limelight. And then what, two months ago? Yeah, two months ago. one of their researchers who they put to put to work looking for vulnerabilities within the Zcash protocol vibe pin tested the protocol and apparently with very little effort very little prompting but with his expertise in the security field like he is a he's a brilliant security researcher and cryptographer discovered that there was a very critical issue within the orchard shielded pool so

a little bit of context for this the way that Zcash works is it has the transparent bitcoin forked like Zcash at its core is a Bitcoin fork. So under the hood, it works exactly the same way. That's like the non-shielded address side. Yeah. Yeah. Non-shielded. That's the vast majority of the way that people use Zcash today.

Vast majority of exchanges only support transparent addresses. That is the normal side. So there's this totally transparent, simple side. There's nothing complex or interesting to talk about with that. And then they have these shielded pools where you can choose to move your money into a shielded pool, gain privacy, and then hopefully make payments within that shielded pool and not go back to transparent addresses. They've gone through iterations of what that looks like.

Sappling was the primary one. And then Orchard was a huge and important migration because that allowed them to remove the trusted setup that existed for Zcash before. Basically the way they had to set up the cryptography for earlier versions of the shielded pool relied on people deleting data. And if they didn't delete data, they could print

as much Zcash as they wanted. Obviously not a good long-term solution. It worked for what it was as far as we know, nobody printed any Zcash. And that was fine for then. Thankfully, the cryptography got way better. And one thing that I will applaud Zecash for is the money that they poured into research for Zer knowledge proofs in general.

Poured into or taken from the block reward. I just said the money. I didn't say where the money came from. Mostly, yes, from the block word from them printing money for themselves. But if someone wants to print money and improve privacy tech with it, like I don't really. honestly that's that's fine with me community community like 40 people were okay with the ongoing dev tax and all of that so um they chose to spend it that way but the research that they've actually generated out of that has massively advanced the whole world of zero knowledge proofs like a lot

of the cutting edge research and possibilities within that space have come from cacchikash cryptographers and researchers hey i'm not i'm not mad at that i'm just never going to hold it oh yeah me neither we neither um but they they had a breakthrough they They were able to remove the trusted setup. They deployed Orchard. It was a huge step forward in terms of how Z-Cash worked on the hood and the trust model. The problem that was discovered was that something within that shielded pool would essentially allow user to print as much Zcash as they wanted.

And because it's within the shielded pool, there would be no way for anyone to know that that had been printed, that the supply of Z-cash had been inflated. Yeah. And the specifically this vulnerability, from what I can tell and what other others have talked about, there would be no way to detect that it was exploded either. Like there's a little confusion where people normally think that, okay, well, it's in the shielded pool so we can never know if it happened. Depending on the way it's actually exploited, that sometimes isn't true.

Like there has been one potential inflation exploit in Monaro, but the way it would have to be exploited actually could be seen on chain. So we know for sure that that one had not happened. It was a much simpler like Minero's much simpler cryptography helped in that scenario where we could know for sure that that was never exploited. the Zcash one, there is no way to know for sure if it was explode or not, outside of just seeing like, didn't exchange, suddenly receive the supply of Zcash in one transaction or something.

But a smart attacker, if they were able to inflate the supply of Zcash, they're going to trickle it out. Yeah. You're just going to sell under Zcash at a time or whatever and just look like a regular trader. You're going to be wise about how you get that money out. So they discovered that vulnerability. They rushed to patch it and hard fork the network in like four days.

which as someone who supports Zcash and Cake Wallet was an absolute nightmare. It was actually at the Oslo Freedom Forum, sitting in sessions having to work with the team to get a hard fork patch out for Cake Wallet to make that work. The fact that they were also able to just like tell mining pools, stop mining these transactions. So decentralized. Like it was literally one organization talking to two mining pools and they just decided what the network was going to do. Like obviously that's horrific. It's nice when you have a security issue.

When you can just say like, hey guys, could you please stop mining? And they do and you don't have the ability for someone to continue exploiting that bug. But they patched it hard forked theoretically that cannot be exploited anymore. But the money is still there. Even if it was inflated, that money could still be there. So the way that they're fixing that is they deployed a new pool

that doesn't have that vulnerability called Ironwood. And every user will be forced to migrate to the new pool, but you have to do it through a transparent, what they call turnstile. So everyone's privacy is. bought yes yeah you'll you'll reveal the amounts of every uh transaction you make in that migration there are some ways that we can try to mitigate that like with cake wallet the way we'll do it is will slowly migrate your funds over automatically in the background at random intervals with

amounts that will be uniform so that they'll blend in with other peoples but you're still going to have to go through that transparent turnstile to get to the new one and the benefit of that is they can make sure that no more than the supply of Zcash goes out of that. But the caveat is, again, if you're the attacker, you have the inflated funds. As soon as the turnstiles enabled, if you do want to, you just move the entire supply out of the orchard pool into the ironwood pool, and then no one else gets through the turnstile, and all of their money is gone. So it doesn't solve the problem. It just gives the assurance that there is no more Zcash than they're supposed to be,

but it might all be the attacker's Zcash. that's the one thing we can't know until the actual turnstile happens, which is Tuesday, tomorrow. So yeah, it won't be a long. So they're in a, they're at a bit of a mess. Yes. That will have happened. This show probably won't go out for a couple weeks. So that will have definitely happened.

We'll see it. We'll see if it was exploited. Because we don't know if it's exploited right now, right? No, no. There's no way to know for sure. What about Monero? I've held this opinion for a while and I still hold the opinion that there's like Bitcoin, shit coins and Monero is kind of a bit different.

Yeah. I don't think I've ever used Monero. but I don't mind Manaro. I'll have to do that live after this. We'll get you onboarded. Yeah, I mean, Manero is the nice, quiet thing that just keeps on working behind the scenes. Obviously, there's not all the fluff.

There are no paid KOL campaigns for sure. And I know that for sure. But it's been just continuing to iterate and improve over the years and working really smoothly. Like right now, the big push within the community is we're working on deploying full chain membership proofs, which essentially will fix the only remaining imperfect piece of privacy with how the protocol works right now. Or right now, when you send a transaction, your input could be one of 16 in that ring signature.

And so you're kind of hiding in a group of 16. And the anonymity set was always the big question about Moner. Yeah, which it's good enough for most people, but it's obviously not the in state where we wanted to be. So full chain membership proofs right now everything's being audited. I expect it to go live probably in like six to eight months. That will move it from one of 16 to one of every output that's ever existed on Marrow's chain. So like one of 150 million. You'll just be an output that is real and no one will be able to know anything else about it.

So that combined with the perfect amount privacy and the receiver privacy using stealth addresses will make it basically as perfect of a privacy protocol as we can have today. And is much, much simpler cryptography as well than Zcashes at the same time because obviously we want to. to be cautious. We don't want the same vulnerability that auditors can catch things like that and we'll go through multiple rounds of audits at the same time. So Minera is in a good spot. It is. I mean, usage has been going through the roof. Like an interesting thing being at K-Q wallet is we're probably like 80 to 90% of Minero users at this point. Wow. And the demand for Monaro is insane, especially the demand to to buy Monaro. I was going to say how do you buy because like almost every exchange got rid of it yeah yeah that's one of the really interesting things that

like when that used to happen like i mean the whole operation chokepoint 2.0 thing like people think that was bitcoin was where that was first played out that first played out with manero like we we had delistings through banking back channel pressure years and years before bitcoin i think that model was really tried with manero and then brought to bitcoin with operation choke point 2.0 so i mean minaro has been delisted or refused to be listed by the vast majority of exchanges for a very long time. Essentially, the only, the last man standing right now is Cracken in the U.S. and some smaller exchanges in the EU. And who knows how long that will be. I used to freak out about that.

It's like, how are people going to discover Minero? How are they going to get it? And then the thing that I realized once I became maybe not as a Bitcoin maximalist or Monero maximalist was one of the real beautiful things about cryptocurrency, is that you can move with essentially no friction between cryptocurrencies in a way that just simply is not possible in whatever it would be possible with fiat. And I think people think of these things as very siloed of like Bitcoin, Monaro, Ethereum. What do you mean by that though? Is that like atomic swaps and things like that? Yeah, the hardcore model is atomic swaps where you're you're swapping directly with another peer and you're doing it in a way that is perfectly trustless

where either the trade goes through or it does not and no one is able to mess with that or prevent it. Like those are literally unstoppable. Yeah. Nothing can be done to prevent it. Do it over Tor. Those are more the hardcore model, which certainly needs to exist, but won't be the way that most people do it. The in-between model now is the cross-chain, centralized exchanges supporting Monero. So things like Thor chain, things like InstaSwap, things like Neer, allowing you to swap between Bitcoin, stablecoins, whatever you want and Monero in a way that is trust minimized, I would say.

certainly not trustless, but trust minimized. And to do it in like literally seconds and with almost zero fees, it's a really magical experience once you, once you try it and see how simple it is. And the demand for that is just absolutely off the charts. Like that is, it's almost always 75% plus of the volume that we see every month. Obviously, we don't see anything on individual trades or anything like that, but in just the revenue that we get back from our partners,

We see the volume that goes through and what chains are the most popular. And Monero is just, there's immense demand in those areas, the Dexas and the centralized swap services at the same time. And that frictionless ability to move between them means that you can actually let each cryptocurrency be good at what it's good at and not need one to do everything. Like Bitcoin can be really good at what it is, which is store of value and now a really good method of exchange. Monero can be good at what it is, which is just digital cash, nothing else. Ethereum can be good at what it does, which is defy, stable coins, things that right now are important. I wish they weren't, but right now they're important. And it also doesn't have to be fully Minero or fully Bitcoin.

And yet you can use them all when you need them and swap between them quite seamlessly. And so that's what makes it so that, yes, you can't buy Minero on almost any like fiat centralized exchange. But it doesn't really matter because if you can buy anything, if you can buy Bitcoin, if you can buy USCT, you can swap to Monero in seconds and be done. no direct link between that either. There's no, your idea is not associated to that swap, that sort of thing. There's people that might hear that and think Seth's shitcoin it. But I actually think that's a really good sign in that like that is the Bitcoin differentiating

itself from the rest of crypto world. Like Bitcoin is obviously the king. And like if you want to use it for these other things, like that's fine. They can go off and do it. But like I think the idea of Bitcoin being mixed in with crypto, I think it's over. Yeah. It is. And I think like at least in the circles that.

that matter right now. It's basically down to just Bitcoin mirror on stable coins. Yeah. I think that is kind of the trifecta of solving all of the different needs that people have right now. Obviously the hope is that the stable coins piece disappears and we can move on with actual freedom money, but the reality is the vast majority of the world that actually needs this stuff would prefer to have stable coins right now. Even the human rights activists and other people who are doing things where you wouldn't think that those would work, they're more useful. So right now they have of their place. But yeah, I think that those those can solve the vast majority of needs. And Bitcoin's place is not going anywhere, but it also is really freeing from a like Bitcoiner

perspective because it also means Bitcoin doesn't have to become all of these other things. Yeah. Like there's been this like how do we do defy on Bitcoin thing and we have these for, oh, it's not forks, these chains like Citria that are kind of on Bitcoin. There's no demand. No one's ever going to use that because there are, if they want defy they're already using Ethereum or Salon or something like that. And it's And it's freeing because we can, we can let Bitcoin be simple, let it do what it does best. And let other chains do the other things. And if a user wants both, they can swap back and forth.

We just don't have to do everything all at once and make Bitcoin the one size fits all chain. Yeah, I think that's probably a good thing. Yeah. All right. More importantly, at least to me, like what about Bitcoin privacy? Like where are we at with that? Obviously, Samurai gone, closed down. Wasabi had a huge change.

Yeah. You've been one of the loudest voices on the silent payment side. Like what do you think of the state of Bitcoin privacy? you right now. The honest answer is it still sucks. It's not, I won't say that we're in a good place right now. The caveat for me though is that we're starting to piece the puzzle together in a way that is becoming more holistic than it has ever been while certainly not being perfect. I think the clear missing gap is still a really reliable coin join protocol. I'm okay with Wasabi now with the decentralized coordinator approach,

but there's some other issues that come with that. And obviously some historical privacy potential issues. I need to get into all of that today. But that is the only solution we have left really right now for breaking the links of what happened to your Bitcoin before and what happens to it after. And you need that piece really, really set in stone for the rest of it to work.

But we also have things that we just did not have, like back in the Samurai versus Wasabi stupidity days. where we have the ability to receive privately with silent payments. And that has gone from what really was a proof of concept, like K-Wallet were the first to launch that. We've been pushing really hard, helping to fund people to build around that.

And it was, yeah, it was really just a proof of concept early on. It worked, but the user experience was not fantastic, and no one else supported it. So it wasn't like, if you were a K-Q-Wallet user and the other person was a K-Wallet user, that's great. But if you can't use it anywhere, you can't withdraw from an exchange to it, Obviously, it's very limited and its use.

That is really shifting now, finally. I've probably said that in the past, but this like, the last like three months, it's starting to become something where more and more wallets are integrating it. The actual backend that you can run to get a better user experience has been coming a really long ways. Like Craig Raw from Sparrow Wallet, he built up Frigate, which is a back-end server where basically with silent payments,

similar to Manhear or Z-Cash, you have this one-time reusable address. You can reuse it over and over again on-chain. That payment cannot be linked back to the reusable address that you've shared. So it's really good for accepting donations, putting behind a Bitcoin username, a Bip 353 username, lots and lots of really, really good, important use cases for that and just a better user experience where your address doesn't rotate and change every time.

We've gotten very used to my address changes every time. But hand someone a Bitcoin wallet for the first time and have them hit receive a few times and see that their address changes and they'll lose their mind thinking they're going to lose their money or something like that. So a really good overall improvement with silent payments, though, the downside is we have this one reusable address, but because the sender is actually the one generating the on-train address for me as the receiver, I don't know where I'm going to receive funds. I have to go through and check essentially every potential payment. So every payment, that's two tap route that has an unspent transaction out, that meets these certain criteria, I have to check, is that mine?

And do a little bit of cryptography against every potential output to see, is that mine? Is that mine? Is that mine? And that process is, it's just a really bad user experience. Like we tried to do the hardcore approach at cake and it works, but it means that you're waiting for a long time to sync your wallet on the silent payment side every time you open it. If you haven't opened it in a month, it's going to take a while to sync. We've done all the optimizations you can essentially do there. The nice thing with that approach is that you get perfect privacy even from the node.

Like the node that you're connected to has no idea which payments are yours, which is a huge departure from Bitcoin wallet sync regularly, where sync right now is when you launch your wallet, your wallet goes, hello server, here are all my addresses. Can you tell me if I've received any payments to them? So you reveal everything about your wallet's balance, transaction history, etc., to the node that you use. Silent payments in the hardcore way reveals nothing to the node. That U.S. though, I have.

I think is just something where it's never going to be good enough for the mainstream. For even just regular Bitcoiners, it's not going to be good enough. So Craig Raw from Sparrow, he works really closely with 2140, which is a Bitcoin Dev funding foundation that they started a year, year and a half ago to build out like what is the best compromise, the best middle ground of silent payments user experience and privacy. So basically what happens with Frigate is that your silent payment address, you have a separate view key where you can hand this

key to someone else and they can scan for you, but they can't spend any transactions for you. So with Frigot, what you'll do is your wallet will connect to a Frigit server. It'll hand your scan key to the Frigit server. It'll scan it very rapidly in a way that you could not do on your wallet, tell you about your payments, and then it will delete your scan key. So it keeps it ephemeral. Obviously, you're trusting that that happens. You're trusting it doesn't log.

But even in that case, yes, you don't have perfect privacy from the node operator, but you still have the perfect received privacy from outside of servers, which is the more important piece. You generally trust your node provider or you can run your own if you really if you really need to. But so this sounds like Bitcoin payments like standard Bitcoin payments as we know them, UX is getting incredibly good. We've kind of solved a lot of those issues on the privacy side. It's a mess still. It is, it is. But it really has improved drastically. And I think like we're exploring using Frickett as the default very soon in Cake Wallet that will be I think the go-toe for that. And we'll make it feel basically like a regular Bitcoin wallet sync, but we'll give you privacy from

outside observers in a way that you wouldn't normally have. And then you get to pair it with things like page 1B2, which has been a really good advancement. Is Pay Join the thing that Chris Belcher was working on like eight years ago or something? He did coin swap. Coin swap. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. He did coin swap, which actually someone else is building around again now. It kind of died out when he stepped away. But someone else is building around coin swap. Coin swap has its own set of issues. Basically, you're just, you're literally just swapping UTXOs with another person. Which is fine if the history of their UTXO is good. But if you're swapping a nice, untainted Bitcoin U2XO with somebody who,

I know this UTXO is bad, so I'm going to find somebody who has a good one and I'm going to swap with them, it gets really problematic really quickly. Yeah. So I don't see coin swap as being a useful tool unless you pair it with coin join. Like if you did like wasabi and then you're only doing coin swaps with post-mixed funds, and you can guarantee that the other person is also only using post-mixed funds so that you're getting a good, untainted Bitcoin back, that would work. But it just has a lot of downsides.

Pay join is much simpler. So pay join is basically just, if both wallet support it and if the receiver already has Bitcoin, when I go to pay you, I don't do anything different. As a receiver, you don't do anything different. In the QR code that you give me or in the URI that you give me, there will just be a pay joint endpoint that I can use. And when I go to pay you, you as the receiver actually contribute inputs as well. So the sender and the receiver both contribute inputs.

And then all of the money goes back to the right person. So you get the right amount as the receiver that I want to send you. You get everything else that you sent in the transaction back as change. The beautiful thing about it is that on chain, there is no footprint for pay join. Just like with silent payments, you can't tell any transaction on chain as a silent payment payment. With pay join, you can't tell on chain that it's a pay join in any way. It looks like a regular one person, two input, however many outputs spend. it looks like regular change going back.

But in reality, you hide the sender because you don't know which input is the actual true sent input. You hide the recipient because you don't know which address is the one actually receiving funds or which one's just getting changed back as the sender. And you actually hide the amount because we can do some tricks with the amounts and the actual outputs and the change to hide the actual amount that's spent. But because it looks just like a regular Bitcoin transaction, not only does it give you is the people making that page join better privacy, but if we can get to,

the usage of pay join to be regular, it actually provides privacy for people who aren't using it. Because as a chain surveillance person, I can't assume looking at a transaction, this is definitely the two inputs, they must be owned by the same person. It's like the oldest heuristic in Bitcoin common input ownership heuristic, where I should be able to assume that any input spent are owned by the same person. Page 1 breaks that assumption. So even if you talk about like 10% of Bitcoin transactions being pay joins, it would completely break that assumption for chain analysis and others and would make it much, much more difficult for them to be able to surveil Bitcoin at the same time, even for those who don't use pay join, which is a huge, huge

benefit of that. What about the, like I know you were saying before that maybe there's not going to be much reason for these sort of ZK roll up L2 things to exist, but what about on the privacy side? When I was talking to Max Hillibrand in Oslo, actually, he was quite excited about this thing. Yeah, I think there's definitely a place for them. Like, I think the best example, I'll copy out it first. There are a lot of potential ways that we can do this. Almost all of them will either have some sort of trusted bridge or they will require a consensus change to Bitcoin.

Okay. So it's not... Not bad on that one. Yeah, there is no perfect... There's never a perfect solution. It's always trade-offs. The most realistic approach right now would be that we would do something like BitVM,

which would allow you to do a one-of-euvre, in bridge where basically if any of the bridge operators are honest, funds are secure, but if all the operators are malicious, they would be able to steal funds that are bridged over to the side chain. It's an okay model. It's obviously not ideal, but it's okay. And that's, you can do that today on Bitcoin. They've done some really cool cryptographic tricks to be able to do it in a way that's much more viable than the original BitVan proposal was. So that's the way it would actually work. What you'd build on top of that right now, the most promising approach is shielded CSV, which basically would allow you to have Zcash style

privacy, but much more scalable. Because with shielded CSV, something that's really interesting is you don't have a global state, like you don't publish all the information about a transaction, even encrypted to a global state that everyone knows. You actually hand the state pieces of it between sender and recipient. So you hand that around it, it brings some potential downsides with recovery, but you hand that around directly between peers. And so the amount that actually gets published into the state for the side chain and then back onto Bitcoin's blockchain is almost nothing. You just publish a nullifier that proves that someone doesn't double spin funds and

you don't have to publish any of the transaction information. So it's like 64 bytes per transaction, no matter how complex or how large the transaction is. And because of the way it works, it's essentially the cash style privacy where you have hidden amounts, hidden sender, hidden receiver at the same time. And so that would be, I think it would be a really good advancement and it would be worthwhile. But as someone who's definitely not a Bitcoin maximalist, like, why would I, why deal with the trust trade-off of a trusted bridge when I can just use Monaro for privacy? Like I can take full self-custody. The Minero Network has proven its security over 12 years of operating right now.

I think the only reason you would use the trusted bridge, if you just, were so set on Bitcoin as the unit of account that you didn't want to touch anything else that could float in value compared to Bitcoin, which is reasonable, I think, is reasonable. To me, the risks of the value changing of my money, if it's something I'm primarily using for spending and not a store value, like I'm not storing my wealth in Monero, even as a huge Minero proponent and I've been in Monero for theoretically longer than I've been in Bitcoin. I'm still not storing my value there. I would rather deal with the better trust tradeoffs of Monaro and the potential that my checking account floats a little bit in value versus the trusted bridge that I would have to do

with something I showed at CSV. I also think we shouldn't not do it just because Monara exists. Like we should still do it as well. Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that would be really nice about that is if we can prove that out and if there's actually really high demand for something like Shilled at CSV over BitVM, maybe that will be enough to push the Bitcoin community to say, okay, let's do this right and let's implement like a zero knowledge proof verifier on Bitcoin

so that we can do this in a completely trustless way and everything can be perfectly verified on Bitcoin. And a lot of that, like I think the only way, honestly, I don't think there will be any changes to Bitcoin ever again. But I think the only way there maybe could be was if someone built something that actually showed, hey, there is massive demand for this and hey, 90% of Manero users switched using shoot at CSV and we're doing all of this volume and users clearly want this, let's shift to a more trustless model. That would be a really good side effect of that. But yeah, I definitely agree.

Like, it's not something you don't do because Manero exists. It's just, I think if you're outside of the Bitcoin-only sphere, I think for most people, it would still make sense to just do something like a Monero instead of the trade-offs that would come with that. But it's a really cool cutting-edge research. Yeah, I'd like to see it. Liam Egan, Robin Linus. They're doing really, really awesome work on actually building out the cryptography behind it.

Who knows what it will actually be reality? Like, these things are always like two years away from being two years away. So I don't know when we'll actually have something we can use. But there is good research happening around that. Hopefully we'll become a real thing at some point. There's a lot of work we've done there. Always, always. It's been awesome.

Anything else we've not thought about you want to be covered a lot. I think those are probably the biggest things, honestly. No, I mean, it's like I said, it's a super exciting time. A lot of it gets dwarfed by what the common discussions are. It's like treasury companies, which I guess are still a thing, even though a lot of them seem to be dying, like Bip-1-10 and all the weirdness around that and the sailor worship. It's true. I said the spam word, the S-word. It gets dwarf, like all the cool stuff that's actually happening.

The improvements that have happened in the space kind of get lost in the shuffle of the more, if it bleeds, it leads new stuff. But that has been a super exciting thing for me as someone who's starting. it as an educator, became a builder that we can actually build things that honestly I couldn't have even dreamed of building and dreamed of how smoothly they would work for real people actually using this stuff day to day for hundreds of thousands, millions of users to be able to actually use Bitcoin Lightning and not feel pain whenever they try to use it. Like even just that has been an awesome shift. But silent payments seriously picking up Steam now, a lot of really cool things being built on

it. I don't know if you saw at the Oslo Freedom Forum. There was this new project called Agora that was launched. I did. I don't know much about it though. It's pretty simple in concept. It's basically a fundraising platform where people in the community can vouch for specific fundraising requests so that instead of just like anyone can say like help give me a Bitcoin. It's yeah it's using Esther as a web of trust so people can essentially

sign off and say like Seth for privacy says this is legit and I know this guy and and it should be funded. But the way that they actually do all the funding is really cool because it doesn't go to a central custodian and then they pay it out if it succeeds. It actually goes to the end recipient via a silent payment so that they can have the static payment address. Nobody has to worry about hosting a server to do that, but they receive it directly into their wallet rather than it going to that central custodian. So it's like another one of those really good use cases and another way that this is going to grow in adoption. Same thing with page 1 v2. We're seeing it in more and more wallets. The actual underlying tooling has gotten really good now. We deployed it really, really early.

And it worked well, but it required a ton on the developer side to get it working. That has shifted now where the actual tooling is really good. And those shifts, they feel like they take a long time to actually materialize. But the actual developer experience getting good enough is meaning that people can build Bitcoin into things that aren't just Bitcoin wallets as well, which is a really important piece of this like radar. And that's been the most fun thing to me is like, I love cake wallet. And I love working on wallets, but most people in the world are not going to use a crypto wallet. Let's be honest. Like long term, you're not going to use a separate thing that is only for storing your

cryptocurrency than you want to use it elsewhere. Like we need to get Bitcoin into other places. And Radar is a really good example and proof of how Bitcoin can fit into just the regular everyday things that people are using without it feeling like this whole like disconnected piece of my life. So it's fun that we've actually gotten there from the tech. We can actually build these things today without having to compromise on self-custody. I love it, man.

The other thing I did, I was thinking. of talking to you about was how AI vibe coding is pushing forward freedom tech. But maybe we do that another time. Yeah, we'll have another one. This has been awesome. Thank you so much. Tell everyone where to find, radar, cake wallet, everything you do. Yeah, yeah, straightforward radar.jot chat or at radar chat on X, you can follow us there, download the app, get all that good stuff. And then cake wallet, just cakewallat.com at cake wallet on X and over their platform trying to make on the cake wallet side,

trying to make self-custody really easy, payments really easy, but then privacy really easy, like we talked about, all the cutting edge privacy tech on Bitcoin we're doing there, as well as Spark for Lightning Payments. So that has been a ton of fun. There is massive demand for privacy tooling right now that I think a lot of people don't realize. But it's been exciting to be able to build and see growth around something that is so privacy-centric over the last year, 18 months. So it's exciting times. People are waking up. The privacy tools are actually good enough that they can jump in and use them today.

The self-custodial tools are getting there. So yeah, check out Radar.com. You want to learn more? Give it a try. Come jump on and make payments as easy as sending a message. Let's go. Thank you, sir. That was awesome.

Thanks, Danny.