What Now? with Trevor Noah - Adam Grant: Fix Your Vibe

Episode Date: October 15, 2026

Are you expecting too much from the wrong people? Organizational psychologist Adam Grant joins Trevor and Eugene to explore why making real friends can be so difficult, how power dynamics shape our relationships at work, and why even our closest connections can leave us disappointed. Adam breaks down the three kinds of relationships we all need and explains why confusing them can create unnecessary tension in our lives. It's a funny, thought-provoking conversation about friendship, expectations, and why building stronger relationships might start with understanding what we actually need from one another. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Let's say a student came up to you and said, Hey, Professor Grants, I need your help. I just, I feel lonely, man. Even when I'm with people, I feel lonely. They'll invite me to a party and I still feel lonely. I'll go out with them. I'll feel lonely. I just don't feel like I have people in my life.

What would your advice be? I think my advice would be to change your rituals for how you interact. This is why so many super teams fail to win in their first year. They haven't figured out how to vibe yet. You got a bunch of individual stars. but I will bet on the team with more shared experience over the more talented team that's never figured out how to collaborate.

And so a group of researchers get together and say, what if we could look at people's rate of professional misconduct by whether they're Ashley Madison users or not? And what the data showed was you can look at CEOs, you can look at police officers, you can look at investment analysts,

their rates of misconduct. are two to three times higher if they cheat on their spouses. So if you invited me to a game night, you would come to a game night? Thousand percent, yes. Really? I've never asked you

because I assumed we weren't pals. Nope, thousand percent. Game night, I'm there like a bear in my find a way. Will you travel for no? Without a? Care. How far we're going to say?

Nothing. Oh, I was like, I don't know where this goes now. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. You know, if you see those people that were, because I watched like some gangster movies and then one thing that they always talk about is a chinchilla coat. Yes, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when they go, the women wear chinchilla coats and then, you know, that's a gangsters. No one has ever worn a gorilla fur coat. Is it still called fur when it's on a gorilla?

Hey. Is it though? No, I'm genuine. I don't know. What else would you call it? Hair. Yeah. I think it would be hair, no?

is it fur? No. It's a coat. It's a coat, my man. You don't have hair coats. But that's just because you don't make them. Genala, Adam. No, no, no, no.

But it's a good one. You don't have hair coats. Yes, but that's because we don't make coats out of hair. No, there's no bare naked lady's song about wanting to buy a real hair coat. But that's just because they were not. I'm asking an honest question here. No, we're answering honestly as well. We're not at all.

No, but I'm being serious, though. Fur coats are called that because they're not. their coats made out of fur, are they not? Yeah, but also leather qualifies to be leather when the hair is stripped out. Leather qualifies to be leather when the hair is stripped out. Yes. Okay. So if the hair is still on or the fur is still, it's a coat.

Yeah. Okay. But once you take out. Now it's a leather coat. It's a leather coat. That's my point. So if you made a coat out of hair, what would you call it? A coat out of hair?

Yes. A fur coat. No, that would be a garment. Because obviously, remember that how you make wool is with yarn that you've gotten from a sheep's. hair. So once that is woven and made into something, it's a woven garment.

But it's also called sheep's wool. Yes, but it has to be woven. You don't hear of guerrilla's wool, do you? No, but that's my point. I'm saying, what is it called? The wool. Yes. It is wool.

Exactly, and I'm saying what guerrillas have. I don't know this. You guys have just made me realize that I don't know what I think it's hair. I've always thought it was hair. Yeah, I think it is. I've always thought it was hair. Brett, what is it? It is hair.

You should look it up and tell us what it is it. It is hair. But if you skin it. the gorilla. Jeez. Because... Oh, that got dark fast. Then you've created enemies.

Yes, because think about it this way. A gorilla's size, right? Yeah. If skinned well... Now, wait, now we're rating, skinning? Yes. On a performance scale. Because a small thumb-sized blade

would take long time to skin something, but the precision that you'll be able to separate the leather from that thin layer of fat. Eugene has been watching a lot of serial killer do Trevor, I respect you, I respect to you, yes, ending that. I can't. I can't go there. If you skin it, depending on the size, if you skin it waist up to the, down just below the belly button.

Yeah. You've got an incredible coat that has a hoodie and gloves attached to it with a reinforced chest plate. If you find yourself one of those great mountaineers who. who live in the Yosemites and they're skinning their whole lives then they manage to skin the whole entire This is how you're going to gain status

You skin the whole gorilla. No. Because you can keep the The ones you would have padded feet No You would have the reinforce And then you can zip up And then close up to the chin

Cover your face Full garment If you want the pants you can create a detachable pants version. But I'm thinking... Can I just say, this is my favorite episode of Shark Tank ever. I'm picturing all of them.

They're watching this. You and Shark Tank explaining, hi guys. So, you've always wanted gorilla's skin, but you wish it was one piece. Well, I skin the gorilla. I think this should be pitched.

Kimmel went on and did a fake pitch. He did? Did you ever see this? We should get you on. It was hysterical. He pitched horse pants. Wait, pants for horses. Yeah, because he said the horse is naked.

Like, it's covered in the front, but it doesn't have pants. He says, I was uncomfortable. The horse was uncomfortable. Pants for your horse. I think this could be the next iteration. Yes, because dogs wear those little coats. Have you seen when people put on a bummer jacket on a dog?

That looks adorable. Where did the dog say I need reinforcement around my chest? Yes, but it looks adorable. I totally agree with you. Or dog shoes, I hate those things. So do the dogs. Have you seen one of the dogs do that thing? Because they put the shoes on me. That's like the worst thing.

No, no, I agree with. I don't think dog shoes make sense really because of like the pads under their feet. Yes. But I think dog jackets make sense. Trevor, yeah. That dog jacket makes no freaking sense. It does.

Hunting jacket. Yes, but sometimes the dog wasn't built for the climate that it's now in. Yeah, but why don't you just cover the whole entire thing then? What do you mean? What makes you think that dog is only cold here and at the back? Because it's a body warmer. It's the same thing I think of when I look at people. What about my arms?

Yeah, but you look at people sometimes they choose to wear a jacket where they go like, hey, my arms aren't that cold. Yeah, but the person has urgency. They open their wardrobe. They decided I'm not feeling too hot. Have you ever put your dog in a jacket? We have cats, but no. Have you ever?

Have you ever? You never allow that. No. But if I did, I think wardrobe is backward. Because what gets cold first, the extremities, right? We need little sock hats to put on the end of our feet. Don't have to cover our heels. Hand gloves are more important than sleeves.

If you guys are never... Adam, you've brought such a joy to my life. This is my subway take. I feel like you are the other part. You are clawed right now. My brain needed you. Some things I need to explain to other people. Can I tell you something?

If you guys are ever in a plane crash that lands in like... the mountain somewhere and there's snow everywhere. And you guys choose. You only have, like, where you can cover and you choose your extremities. You will die. I'm not saying don't cover the core. Keep your core warm.

Cover the core. I'm just saying, have your arms ever been cold? Yeah. Versus one of your hands cold. Yep. Gloves are more important than sleeves. Okay, that I can take, yes. This crazy guy on the other hand.

He should have been wearing only gloves. This guy. What do I mean? He just agreed with me, put it next. That's what I said. Claude. Okay, okay. So he's your human Claude. Oh, man. Oh, I will never be your sycophant. Eugene. Never. Never. Never.

Is Claude a sick of fan? I don't think it is. I think Claude is more like just like, to the point. I think they're all. I think, no, chat cheap. No, chat GPT is more like, that's a great idea, Adam. You know, I wouldn't have thought of it like that's a really great idea. Claude disagrees with you. No, Claude will just be like, I think you're simplifying you too much. Claude may be better. Yeah, Claude is way better. It still leans more toward validation than it should. Isn't that most people, though, that you like work with?

No, we need that in life. Not if you have healthy working relationships. Wait, wait, wait. So when you go to a company, do you encourage them to, like, sprinkle in a little bit of asshole for the thing to work well? How does it work? No, I think I prefer a court jester, actually. Wait, what do you mean? I mean, somebody, because comedians can say things that no one else can.

Right. So we need somebody who's funny who can do the little mocking laugh that you just did. In the office. Ideally. Would it be somebody who works in the office or someone they bring in specially for this? It's tricky. because if they work in the office, sometimes they don't have enough power to do it

and there's too much risk. But if they're an outsider, they can't always read the dynamics. And then I also think if they do have too much power, now it's not funny. Funny relies on not having the power. Yeah, but also not having the power.

Yes. Have you ever done those gigs where the audience is all sitting like really below you? Yeah, yeah. It's not as much fun because it feels like you're like telling them stuff.

Yeah, you are. But if you look at great amphitheaters, how they built, audience peers down on you. So they get to enjoy, you know what I mean? Like, you could mock the king in the king's box because the king is above you. Ha ha, look at this fool.

Then everyone's like, of course, he's not a fool. Look where he's sitting. But if you point down and go look at this fool. Literally punching up. There you go. That is. This is good. So interesting.

Yeah. So now, like, I'll tell you know, I don't like bosses who like go around the office like trying to be funny. I think that's terrible. That's like the worst thing ever. Wait, so as a boss, you stop being funny. Let's say you were a,

a jolly guy who everyone likes. There's a difference. Jolly and trying to be funny. Yeah. Be yourself. But I'm saying there's bosses who come in and now for instance, imagine it's like your boss now and then comes in and goes like,

Eugene, what are those? What do you say to your boss now? And now everyone lost because they're like, it's the boss. He just mocked your shoes. What do you do? And you can't reply because of the power dynamics. You see now?

No. So this is why my favorite class to teach are when students don't laugh at my jokes. Because I feel like I'm going to get honest feedback for them. And they're going to challenge me. This is also why the more powerful you get, the more the cardinal rule of humor is,

you make fun of yourself, not others. The boss who self-deprecates, I'm all in for that. Okay, okay, as opposed to the boss. They've also got to know what self-deprecation is. Because I've seen some people who think it's self-deprecation, but it's not.

They'll be like, sorry, I was late, everybody. You know, it's just sometimes you don't realize what time it is when you live in a penthouse at the top floor of the best city in the world. You're like, that wasn't a joke. No, that was a humble brag. And also it's just, yeah, it's just you telling us what you have. So, wait, when you're teaching these, when they don't laugh, what do you, what do you,

how do you respond out of a don't laugh? I've always wondered what people do when they're not a comedian. Yes. You go like that, but it's crazy, though. That's actually a good one. Well, here's what every... My brain was like, what? What every professor wants to do is to say, no, no, no, no.

That was funny. The last audience laughed. What's wrong with you people? Yeah. No. Here's what I've found works and tell me if this is good. So I used to perform as a magician, which is the lowest status form of entertainment. No, not possible.

Not always. I mean, according to Family Guy, only mimes are lower. and magicians. And there's a mimes school down the road from you. Mimes is hard to like argue against. Everyone makes fun of magicians. Because they can't defend themselves. But I did perform for a while and the thing that I learned doing magic was you have to just accept the moment and call it out.

And so when I get crickets, I'm like, wow, that was really terrible. And I just own it. Huh. And then they usually laugh. at that. Oh, they laugh at the fact that you've acknowledged how terrible the thing was. Yeah. Boy, with magic, what would happen? You'd do a trick. You mess up a trick. Oh, you mess up a trick.

Yeah, and they're like, yeah, that sucked. And then they laugh with you as opposed to ask you. And now we're just all staring at a dead dove on the floor. So, um... Oh, no, don't work with live animals. No. Who we? No, bad. So if I make a coat out of this dove... Too soon?

Definitely too soon. No. No, don't go there. That's very painful. You guys are, you guys are just, anyone who likes animals is going to be suffering right now. No, no, no, we love animals. These are hypothetical animals. I'm all for real animals.

I think hypothetical animals, you should be able to, like, do more things to them. Fair. Hypothetical, many things. Like make quilts out of your old pets. Ah, my man, it's hypothetical. That's the joy in it. Do you know what? Keep you closer to them, though. It actually does keep you closer. Yeah. Now, if we

could just pause for a second, Adam, what I've been trying to, what I've been trying to Oh, for a second. Yeah. No, what I've been trying to do here is conduct a mini experiment with you as a test subject. Oh, interesting. Right, because I was reading your book, Vibe, and I was trying to see how we could create a vibe between us. So now...

You were definitely not doing that. What would you rate? How would you rate the vibe? Well, it depends on what our goals are. No, no. I'm just saying, how would you rate the vibe? If you now walked out at this moment, what would you say, did we create a good vibe? Did we get it right?

I would say we created a great pal vibe. And I'm not sure about our companion. or ally vibe yet, but we'll find out. Oh, damn. So you have to think of all types of vibes. I was telling Eugene about the book and I was going, I love nothing more than when smart people apply themselves to issues that I think people are actually struggling with.

Yeah, day-to-day stuff. Yeah. And for me, no, and for me, vibe is that. Like, genuinely, genuinely, genuinely. I will say just as a side note, I think it's amazing that you took the opportunity in a book that you're like aiming to have as a bestseller to like take a digger that kid who stole the basketball from you

that's pretty gangster like the opening pages of a book you know most people would be like you know growing up my family and the things I've learned in society Adam's like yo when I was a kid this kid stole my basketball from me and the kids I played with with dicks and they laughed at me and I thought they were my friends and they weren't my friends totally fucked up my vibe totally screwed up everything in my life

and they stole and I thought he was my friend and he stole my basketball and was a limited edition basketball and screw you and you even name him what's his name again? Oh I changed his name

Oh you did change it okay but you wrote in the book and it was like yo screw you so now let's talk about how to create vibe and as a professor and as an organization I was like yo Adam where Adam was like where I find you

with my basketball shots fired no but but for real though it's actually funny. I like that you called it Vibe because it's inviting, but I really think, you know, the non-exciting title of the book could be how to cure loneliness.

Oh, well, my 15-year-old will be very happy because she came up with the title and she doesn't like it. Oh, wait, what do you mean? She came up with the title? Accidentally. So I was just getting ready to start writing it and I was traveling with her and she saw me talking with somebody

that I met once or twice before and she said, you two were really vibing. I was like, that's the title. Oh, and she was like, oh, what have I done? Yeah, she's like, stop saying, stop saying vibe, dad. Over and over again. But yes, I want to try to figure out

how we can be less lonely. I feel like that's a big problem in the world. Less lonely. How do we get along more? How do we understand the dynamics behind getting along? So remember what I said to you earlier, right? And this is literally I'm quoting from the book or paraphrasing rather,

you literally lay this out as you get into the book is going like, have you ever had that moment where you meet someone? You engage with them, you go like, man, I really love this person and then you go, but like, why? That's literally what you're working on. That's what you've worked on in this book. Eugene, I'm just going to have you interview Trevor about the book.

Yeah. I'm not needed here. Ask me about my time as a professional diver. You know that it was, right? So tell me about the time. Where you used to be a professional diver. Yo, top board. I was up there.

Six-pack and everything. Underwear. With suit? A little bit a little bit. You see, that's the sound of professional makes. You wanted to go splash. We don't splash. No.

No. Trevor. What's the sound? The sound, the rip entry is a... Is that what it is? Yeah, it sounds like a tearing. Oh, okay. Because your flat palm hits the water and makes a...

Do you still dive? I mean, once or twice a year. Like, do you save it for... How often do you go up to, like, the top one and then do, like, the really super acrobatic? 10-meter platform, I wouldn't do anything, but something really simple. But one meter or three-meter springboard,

I'll flip and twist. Yeah, he was like a full-on, full-on. It's like tiny little speedo underwear and sucked in stomach and chest and all that intensity. I don't know why you're trying to create visuals around that. It's a vibe. That is not a vibe. That is a bad vibe.

It's the opposite of the kind of vibe I'm trying to create. I'm sorry. Forgive me. But I want to know why. I mean, like, your previous books, you know, I mean, CEOs love them. You know, companies will talk about everyone. But this book feels like it's genuinely for like the people, people, like all the people everywhere. You're not in a company.

You're not in anything. Like, what was the inspiration behind this book and the idea? What are you trying to solve? I think it came from two places. Yeah. One was just over and over again having the experience of having a great interaction with somebody and then thinking, oh, like, I'm a shy introvert. I've finally figured out how to connect with other people. And then meeting somebody else and feeling like I went right back to the

awkward turtle version of me. Right. I'm like, how can I be both people? Like, how can I, how can I, how can I in one conversation feel like I have immediate chemistry and closeness with somebody? And then somebody else, I want to crawl into a hole because it was so uncomfortable. I think that was the first thing. And then the second thing was, like, I'm just watching. tons of people struggle with connection. I'm, I mean, I'm terrified for my students right now. Like, a good number of them have AI companions, which I think is an oxymoron.

Sorry, what does that mean? They claim that they're friends with their favorite AI chat pod. Oh, like, for real, for real. Yeah. You know, I've seen people write about this. I don't think it was a real thing. Yeah. Like, I didn't think it was like, you know,

things are always real, but I'm like, is this a real thing? You say it's real. In fact, if you look at surveys in the UK and the U.S., and you look at Gen Z, somewhere around, around a third will say, yes, I have an AI companion. They consider it a real friend. And a significant minority of those would rather interact with their chatbot than with a human.

I'm like, that's a problem. We got to fix that. So is that a problem with, where's the problem, though? Is the problem with AI or is the problem with society? I think both. Okay. But I think it's easier to teach people new skills for how to vibe and to explore the psychology of that, that's what I do, than it is to get all of the AI companies to change their

algorithms and rewrite their bots. What's cool about it is it also felt like you were sharing something that you used in your life. Constantly. Yeah, you talked about how, you know, you were awkward. You're trying to get over this awkwardness. You'd struggle to, like, talk to people. You would figure out like, how do I fit in? How do I not fit in? And then you chose magic, which is like a terrible choice, in my opinion. I'm forgetting girls. Terrible choice as well. for getting girls Bad Which girls are you getting?

Are you telling me that Girls would not love a guy Who can bend a spoon And pop a card out of their sleeve? My own wife told me She hates magic Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Everyone loves the wow experience

Nobody wants to hang out with the person created That's the thing, yes Really? Yeah The thing is there, it's cool No one wants to like go home with the magician No one wanted to go home with Sick Fried and Roy

No, bro That's why they had each other Nah, bro It's just not Pen and Teller Now I'm starting to realize as a trend here No, but And like you talk about this

And you go You were just like bouncing from awkward to awkward Oh man And then you meet this Or rather You're in this class Where you start realizing that

In that one class You are sort of like The best version of yourself or the version of yourself you want to be the most, you know? Yeah. I mean, I had an incredible professor, excuse me, let me try that again. I had an incredible professor, Brian Little, who became my mentor. And Brian is also a shy introvert, and he was electrifying.

And he would just drop these little nuggets. I remember him coming into class one day and saying, did you know that in the morning, if you sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue, the more you salivate, the more likely it is that you're an extrovert. And I'm like, what? And he's like, no, no, no. No, actually, it's the reverse. The introverts salivate more.

But you see, like, stuff like that is... But stuff like that is crazy to me. That you can repeat that and prove it. I mean, this is what... Lemon drops on the tongue. Introverts will salivate more. Do we know why, by the way? We think...

So, I think we need more research to unpack it, but we think that introverts are more sensitive to stimulation. And so a bright light, a loud sound, something sour Okay And that's probably why they are introverts Because the world is overstimulating them Okay

This actually makes a lot of sense And the opposite for extroverts Extroverts have the opposite So they're less sensitive Which is why they love loud music They'll seek out bigger groups Because that's stimulating It's also why extroverts are more likely

To be diagnosed with ADHD Because they are They need more stimulation To get to the same level of engagement is one theory anyway huh this is crazy you see now we're in the class

do you see what he's just done we weren't even in the class and Adam took us into the class that's how good his lecturer was look at us now we were in that class being like what tell us more but I mean this is a skill right yeah it is that was the thing

is I realized this is a skill that psychologists call that a curiosity gap where you tell someone something really interesting but you don't reveal all of it, and then they want to know more. And I watch Brian do that and thought, I can learn to do this. And I started telling people about the cool things I was learning, and all of a sudden, our vibe changed.

And I thought, okay, maybe we can vibe with more of the people more of the time if we change our routines and rituals for how we interact. Just figure out. That's what people do to get like a really viral TikTok or YouTube reel or any of those things. If you watch the videos that are really hooking, they always do. start you off with something that has that curiosity gap and then they leave you hanging on. Do you get them saying?

And then you are now like, wait, why is that? Have you even noticed how when you're done eating a meal? You always feel like there's not enough space for food, but you've still got space for sugar. Why is that? And then you're like, why is that? And then you're going to watch now. And then what they do is they go like, well, before we get the, you need to understand what sugar actually is. So you see the compounds and then you're on this journey

You're on this journey on this journey And then at the end they're supposed to now you're in Yeah, you're in yeah there's So you do that to people in real life I mean hopefully for them not to them Oh okay not using this against you No no no okay I'm trying to I'm trying to bond here Trying to connect I'm trying to add some value to your life

Share something interesting with you When you're trying to create connections with people How do you avoid Reverting to or exist in a place that feels like sort of contrived versus just knowing what these things are. So this is what I mean. I have like,

I have a friend who has read every like book on how to be charismatic. Yeah? And then I think because of that has stopped being charismatic. Right, because it's an act and it's forced and fake. For instance, like, they'll ask me things like

what excites you in the next five years? Then I'm like, ah, bro, don't do that, bro. That's not a... What do you mean? Oh, that's a thoughtful question, my man. Okay, I like. We're hanging out as friends. Wait.

You've known me for yours. No. He knows he's not. I thought you were about to call him out. Eugene would never. You know what I'm talking about. People ask you questions. People like, they just say things to you like.

Eugene was afraid for a second. No. I don't know. My AI that didn't pay full subscription for. Now he's telling him on me. No, but you know what I mean. I have a friend. He's been reading about how to win friends and influence people.

He's like. But you get what I'm saying. Like, like, because, because there are so many books that'll tell you how to do things, how to be natural, how to be charismatic, how to be this, how to be that, how to be that. And then sometimes what happens is the people go into the real world and then they're thinking of the thing. Remember when that dating book was, the pickup artist book was big. Oh.

What was it called? The game. Yeah. Neil stressed. Yeah. And then every guy was now like, first thing I must do is neg. Let me begin my journey with a peacock. Peacock into an I-O-I, indication of interest.

And now I will neg. And now I will, she's like, what are you doing, bro? What are you doing? And then it got so, it was such a parody of itself. Yeah. You know what I mean? It was such a schick that now people would be doing it when they're out. And then women would just be like, are you nagging me right now?

Guy would be like, glitched. You glitched because now the person got you. Same thing with somebody who's read a book on how to have a good conversation with you. Then they'll say, so Adam, tell me, if you look back on the past five years of your life,

what would you say has really just made you feel like today is worth you being here? And now Adam's like, oh, that's an interesting question. You know what I've realized is what creates a great conversation is vulnerability and curiosity because with vulnerability

you allow yourself to be wrong. Like we have this rule that we don't it's not a rule really but whenever we come up with a thing that we're saying to each other we don't fact check it on our phone. Yeah we're not allowed. Like you and I just did it back there?

Yeah, we're like yeah what if we find out it's not I don't want to break the vibe. It's boring. We'll check it after. Yeah, it's boring. So when you're willing to be wrong about something the conversation just gets better and better because it allows the other person to correct you

or to acknowledge the fact that you know something that they didn't know So their curiosity cup gets fuller, and in yours, your interest gets piqued as well because now you'd want to know what they know. So if they start with curiosity low and then you start with interest high, then you can meet each other in the middle. Yeah, but what I'm asking you, Adam, is how do you not... How do you not become a robot? Yes. Yeah.

No, I think, Eugene, where were you when I was writing chapter two? Because you just added a little piece that's missing, which is about the curiosity dance and how both people can bring it. But, Trevor, you must be in the next, what's the, in the paperback? Yeah, and you know, in the next edition, you're going to put in the Eugene edition. By the way, Eugene added this. There's going to be a Eugene footnote. I like that. The Eugene footnote.

You're going to own that footnote. Thank you. Trevor, I think your question is fascinating. And I actually really struggled with it when writing the book because there are all these questions that have been tested as good icebreakers and conversation starters. And the moment it becomes a bit is the moment I want to stop using it. Yes. Right. So I remember being in a conference a few years ago, and everybody's saying, oh, what do you do?

I'm like, what a boring, also overly American question. Yes. Like, we have to define ourselves by our jobs or our careers. I study jobs. I still don't want to just stay at the surface of what is your profession. So I said, you know what? Forget, like, forget what do you do? What do you love to do?

And we had a great conversation because they immediately started sharing something they were passionate about. The next time I did it, it didn't do anything for me because I felt like a, I was just doing like a click were sort of, I was an automaton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a pre-programmed bit in a way. Exactly. And so I think what's better is, I think we can give, like if we're talking about conversation starters, what we should do is we should give some examples of different

kinds of conversation starters and why they're effective. And now the task is to come up with your own. And that's where I want to live is, here's something that have worked for me. What's, like, what is it about them that makes them effective and now use your creativity? So you're learning a skill. You're not learning how to parrot something. Yes, exactly. And there's a different thing.

Because that's honestly the thing that I'm struggling with is I feel like people are taking what they read in all of these self-help type books. And all they do is parrot them. And if you go and listen to a real conversation with people, you'll start hearing it. If you listen clearly enough, people are like, hmm, that's interesting. I've never thought of it that way. Yes. So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is, then I'm like, you don't have to do that all the time. It is good to repeat what somebody said back to them just to clarify.

But if you do it every time. Every single sentence they utter, you come up with, hmm. You know what I feel like? This happens all the time. All the time. I mean, another one that people hear regularly is repeat the other person's name because they find their own name very pleasing. And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, Trevor, I wanted to let you know Trevor that you should be aware, Trevor. Oh, boy.

Shut up. No. I feel like the best conversation starter with a stranger is if they feel like they can resolve a conflict that you're having either with someone else, if there's two of you. Yeah. And then you're coming to this one person. Or if you're just alone, you can say something up. You can be like, so is this a button up or a button down shit? Because we're having a difficulty trying to figure this part out.

Then the person goes, oh, yeah, it is a. then we can say, you see, you are wrong, or we can say, oh, thanks for that, I'm right. What's the psychology behind that? Okay, so this is a different kind of vibe. So I feel like we should talk about the different kinds of vibes. Yeah, okay, let's go in. Okay, let's do them.

What are they? Okay, so I think for most of my life, I just kind of put people in categories based on what domain in my life they were part of. So like black, Indian. No. Oh, okay. Trevor.

Sorry. Friend, family. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Hey, man, apartheid. I'm sorry, man. The stereotypes are strong in this. My bad, man. My bad, my bad, Adam.

Sorry, sorry. Okay. So you started off with people in categories. That's what we all do, right? Sorry, sorry, sorry. Carry on. It's like, how do you know this person? Okay, got it.

They met them at work. Their blood relatives. Yes, yes, okay. We hang out. We met in school, whatever, right? We're not going to be able to escape. We're not going to get out of this. Sorry about this, Adam.

No, no. I feel like we need a 10 minute pause. He's usually not like this. Just on Trevor projecting racism onto me. Thank you, Trevor, for that. Whoa, whoa, it's not racism. We all have different ways. You said I categorize the people.

I was like, oh, so the category, and I made a mistake. And for that, Adam, I'm sorry. You know what I like about our friendship is, at some point, you will dethrone me from my, from my, putting a foot in your mouth. You will, at some point, I know you will parachute down, take me off the pedestal. And then perch himself nicely down top.

No one remembers the gorilla suit anymore. He's going to one up you and how terrible. It started with a gorilla suit. It ended with racism. Click on that thumbnail. Okay, yeah, so sorry. So that's how you started. I did start there.

And at some point, it hit me that those categories are not very useful. They tell you how you're connected, but not why. Okay. They don't reveal the purpose of the relationship. Why do we matter to each other? And what kind of vibe are we building together? Oh, damn. Okay.

Okay. And in particular, those categories fail to explain why do some coworkers become friends? Why does some friends feel like family? Why do we all have at least one uncle who we wish we weren't related to? Alcohol. Maybe. Okay. Maybe.

But I'm closer to some coworkers than I am to people I'm related to and vice versa. What is that about? And so I started reading a lot of research on this. And basically what I discovered is there are three ways to build meaningful vibes in most cultures around the world. And they all have different words for them. But I've come to call them allies, pals, and companions. Allies, pals, companions. Allies, pals, companions.

So basically, allies are people who share your goals. Pals are people who share your interests. And companions are people who share your values. That you can go on a journey with. Wait, okay, wait, but let's go deep. into these ways. Yeah. So allies are? So allies, you're basically accomplishing something together.

They're your best collaborators. Now, in what way? Are you saying like in a, is it a work task? Is it a purpose task? Yeah, but I'm trying to understand. Could be any kind of project you're doing. So they could be the people that you would want to start a company with. They could be people that you want to co-host a podcast with.

They could be people that you'd love to volunteer together. Or would love to have you egging you on when you're doing a race together for charity. Okay. Okay. Okay. They're the people who help bring out the best version of you. Okay. So now let's go into the why on that. Why is it that that happens? Like why do they work in that and another person doesn't? So I think allies work very well on compatibility in terms of being complementary to you. So they share your goals, but they have different skills and different perspectives.

Yeah. And so they can bring out aspects of you that don't exist. They can see your blind spots. They can elevate you. Oh, okay. So you, I mean, now I go to like football as the analogy. We're talking soccer football, right? Yeah, yeah, not American football. I'm glad you're thinking about because I think about war. I mean, that's one way to think of it.

But I was going like, yeah, left wing, right wing, striker, center, backward. Everyone has a different skill set. Yeah. But everyone has the same objective and goal. They're trying to do the same. Yeah, platoons in the war is the same. In the army, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those are ally relationships. I see. Which is one kind of vibe. Okay, got it. Which is we are here for a purpose. All right. And we don't have to sing kumbaya. We don't even have to like each other.

Yeah. What we have to do is figure out how to become better together than we were alone. Okay. Second one is. Pals. So that's in the friendship realm. Often, yeah. Okay.

But you can be pals with your colleagues too or with your family members. Yeah, but I'm saying this is like, I'm trying to like delineate them. So the Pell part is like. Most common. Okay, got it. And Pell? There are people you have fun with. You have similar interests, similar hobbies.

you like the same movies. You might end up wanting to go do karaoke together. You probably have the same taste in humor. They're basically the people who bring out joy in you. Okay, I like that. They bring out joy in you.

I'm really trying to get clear on this. So the first people is like, we're trying to build the same building together. Yep. But they may bring no joy, but because they're trying to help you or they believe the task that you are engaged in should be completed,

you may derive joy from it, but it doesn't necessarily come with joy. One may be a byproduct, but it isn't, whereas the second one, it is like one of the defining characteristics. Got it. Only. We don't care if anything comes out of our interaction. We like the experience. Yes.

If your pickle boy friend gets an injury, you're not going to bring him chicken soup. No. You just wish them speedy recovery so they can come back and play pickle with you. If they're an ally. Okay, so that's that. If they're an ally. Aha. Aha, I see.

And if they're an ally, you want them if they're at the same skill level as you. Yes. Whereas if they're a pal, you want them to be the funniest player you know. I see. This makes a lot of sense. Okay. Ah. Okay.

And then the last one is? And then the last one is companions. And those are the people who give emotional support, typically. How's that different to a pal? It's more care as opposed to joy. So a pal is the person who's excited to be in your wedding party. Yeah. Companion is the one who shows up at the funeral.

Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Now, first question I have is, you're not saying that each of these people is fixed in one category, right? Can I be an ally, a pal, and a companion? Now, you have to choose. Only one. Really?

No, of course not. Oh, damn, okay. No, I was like, hey, bro. I was like, okay. No, actually. I saw his life flashing in front of his eyes. My man, I was just like... You felt like he chose, but he didn't know when.

Yeah, bro, I felt like when I'm playing video games and then I'm like, ah, warlock. Oh. knight. I want magic, but I also like using a sword. Why do I have to choose? Why is this one path that I can take? I want

to wield an axe and a sword at the same time. Why can I cost a few spells? I also wish to hide in the shadows. Why do I, why cannot not be an assassin mage knight? Why do I have to you can in this case? Okay, so this is good. This is great news for me, actually.

Yeah, so look, we can vibe with people on multiple wavelengths. Usually our closest friends and the people we are most bonded with cover all three of these bases. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So now, let's go to the puzzle that everybody's trying to solve. People are like, all, Adam, these things all make sense. You've just given them a fancy label. Woo-ty-do, professor, thanks very much for that. You haven't changed my life. I know I have pals. I know I have allies. I know I have companions in my life. But what I'm saying to you is I feel like I have fewer pals than ever before.

I feel like I don't have allies in my life. And to be honest with you, other than my parents, maybe, I don't have any companions. Like, what am I supposed to do with this? Yeah. So I think the so-out of this is I think we need a new language of connection. Yeah. And I think we need a new language because this becomes...

Dothraki. Yes, if that helps you. I don't speak Dothraki. I was going to say discernment, but carry on to Therakie. You know what? I, I, I, we were both using a D. So this is why we are, I'm going, I'm going Lannister direction here.

And you know what they say? Lannister always pays us dead, man. It's true. Another D. That's a reliable ally. Yes. You can count on that. Okay, okay.

So, so here's the thing. I think that, I think we need a new language because it gives us different ways of connecting. It also gives us different ways of avoiding killing a vibe. Cool. So oftentimes, I have this experience all the time. I think somebody is going to be a great ally or companion. Yeah. And so I try to start a collaboration with them or I share something vulnerable with them.

And it doesn't happen. And then I realize, oh, that person should be in the pal zone. And often we don't see eye to eye. Like, I'm trying to ally you and you're trying to pal me. And that can be a recipe for conflict, for betrayal, even if you don't. Yeah, exactly. Because you have a set of expectations about what this interaction is supposed to be like. and if I don't meet those,

then that can hurt our relationship or prevent us from forming one in the first place. That's so profound. Is it? It truly is profound. Why? Because what you've revealed, I think, gives us a beautifully mechanical view

of something that we've always assumed is really just like esoteric in a way. Why is this person, why that person? Why not that person? But think about how many people have friendships that completely break down, have business relationships that, like, end in flames, that have romantic relationships that, like, blow up. And they are like, I don't know why, I don't know why.

But then now what you've just said is like, yeah, maybe you turned a pell. You thought this pell would be a good companion, but they were a good pell. You thought this ally would be a good pal, but no. And you thought this pal would be a good ally, but they're not. They were just a good pal. And now you started a business with your best friend. Now the business has fallen apart. And now you hate each other.

And you're like, but why would my friend do this to me? It's like, yeah, your pal didn't do it to you. Your ally, they weren't an ally. That's why they did it to you. They were a bad choice of an ally. That's why I'm saying it's extremely profound because it also removes malice. Yeah, I mean, that was the light bulb I had when I put this framework together after going through all this evidence was, oh, that's why that relationship fell apart.

Yes. I was upset that that person didn't call me back. back. And I had a strong expectation that an ally is reliable and responsive. And a companion is there for you. And they were just a fun pal. And instead of just kind of letting it fizzle or having a nasty confrontation with them, I could say, you know what, that person has a place in my life. I love hanging out with them in a group. I'm not going to expect them to be there for me. And now I've lost one less relationship. Yeah. So the way I've always thought of it is I go, my friends all contain a part of me

and more importantly what they've done is they've you know like in the lab where you put a solution or a thing on what do they call that when they put something on something else oh no man it's called a what is it it's not an agitator it's a a pipette is the instrument right yeah the instrument now I like this game this game night we're good we're getting there pipette inside a petri dish that's where you put something on it so that it

reveals something or bacteria yeah yeah but But it's called a... Is it a solution? There's a word for it. It'll cut up an activator of some sort. Yeah, a catalyst. Yeah, catalyst. Thank you.

Ah! Kada, 10 points, Adam. Ally. Kallist. I'm in, let's go. So, we'd be great at Game Nat. This is fantastic. Thank you, Adam.

So, you know, when you think of those catalystists, I think of everyone in your life as a catalyst. And what happens is, the more time you spend with them, the more, you know, the catilism goes, is catalytic? or calais that thing inside of you and they reveal it and you feel it and you feel it and you feel it. What I think we take for granted

is that not all catalysts bring out the best or what we want to feel. So some of your friends make you feel shit. Some of your friends make you feel less than. Some of your friends will always make you remember your mistakes, remember your lowest moments, remember they'll make you angry, they'll make you bitter. Anyone can have that.

And they're not doing it. it in a neck, they're not trying to do this to you. It's just how the two things interact, right? So with the hawkrucks as I go, you've got your friends, you've got your friends, you got your friends, each of them contains a part of you. And so the reason I say it's liberating, it's freeing is because when you go to that friend, they are bringing that thing out of you. And just like anything in life, I think balance is important. If you're only with that friend, then you'll start to only get pulled in one direction. And then the other parts of you don't get pulled anymore and you'll forget actually how much you want some of those things.

This is the Trevor headline of Chapter 3. I never thought about this in terms of horrockses, but this is the kind of, it's been an upheaval in our understanding of personality. We used to think about people just having stable traits. Like, I'm an introvert, you might be a little bit more ambiverted or extroverted. We now, that's all true, but we now think much more about our if-then signatures. So there are certain situations and certain people that would bring out a more extroverted version of me versus a more introverted version of me. And that dynamic of, okay, our interaction created that, right? It elicited that in me.

But you store it. I need to interact with you to be that version of me. That's exactly why we sometimes want different people to be pals, allies, or companions. Because they activate different parts of our if-then qualities. Yeah, because if you're not careful, you spend all your time with an ally, you don't realize that you need rest. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, an ally is an amazing thing, but I think of like the stories and the movies and the tales that you would love. You love like shipfaring. You love those types of tales. In many of them, the sailors would like part ways as soon as the boat hits the shore.

Yeah, when it docks? All right, see you at the next voyage. And you're like, but you've spent months at sea and they're like, yeah, that's exactly why I'll see you at the next voyage. Yep. Because... Same with army vets, right?

You'll come back from a war. Interesting. Some of them will never see each other again, but some will keep contact that one person that they've made trench art with or they've gone through a difficult situation and they've escaped or they're in a prison of war camp together. Then they always remember that one person during that companionship phase that this person is a, I'm taking this person as a companion. There's a paper on that by Elder and Clip who showed exactly that.

Yeah, if soldiers have experienced loss together, they're more likely to stay friends 40 years later because that was a moment that elicited companionship, and it gave them a ritual. They remember that person every year on their birthday or on the day that they were lost. Oh, wow. And that becomes a reason to stay connected. If you didn't, then you were just allies,

but it doesn't necessarily bring out the companion in you. Yeah, because once you're back home, you don't have a shared mission anymore. Yeah. You're not at war together, and so what do we have? Maybe nothing. We'll be right back after the short break. Eugene just wants to live on love is blind

permanently 100% Yeah but now the shadow also gives something away Also I would love my eyes I've watched that show I like how they say love is blind But then there's a silhouette Brough

The silhouette is saying something Say what you want The silhouette is saying something Yes but also I would If it was love is blind You know what they wouldn't be on the other side Anything Why did they say love is blind

It's not like They should say love is blurry Because it's not blind Do you get what I'm saying Love is backlit That's a better name for that show Eugene What do you think Trevor and I are?

Right now, I would thank you more pals. You're dinking, hitting this thing. The kitchen is open. You just called the product of the last five years in my life a dink. Thank you for that. In my day. I feel like, yeah, in my observation, you are more pals than anything else right now. Because of the tone of the conversation?

The tone of the conversation, the topics that you guys are discussing. It's something that it could be very light and it could be very serious at the same time but it has no direct consequence to your lives. You're not writing a book together so therefore you're not allies. You're not going on a long journey together. It's not like you've known each other for 10 years,

therefore you're not companions. But right now there's so much fun. It's a game, it's happening and it's interesting. And also has room for other people to jump in and out of it. Trevor, what do you think we are? I would say we are predominantly paled. So if, you know, the thing had like it's levers that go up and down. It's zero companion, who are predominantly pal, and then tiny bit ally.

So interesting. I had the opposite on those two. What do you have? I thought of you as an ally with a little bit of pal energy mixed in. Now, tell, now this is fast. You see, you see now? This is why things are going to crumble between us. Let's go.

This is literally the first conversation I've had about this. So one of the open, this is, this is my first five. Oh, man. This is virgin territory. Let's do it. But one of the things I have been wondering about is in romantic relationships, we have rituals to define what we are. We do the define the relationship, the DTR or the woo-woo.

What's up with us? Yes. Nobody does this with other kinds of connections with platonic connections. And I have been wondering, is this going to be helpful for people to say, what are we? Are we pals companions or allies? So this is an experiment. I haven't done this yet.

So let's talk about why. Yeah. Tell me from your perspective. Okay. The reason that I think we're allies. is we mostly see each other at events, gatherings, conferences, where there's a goal. We're both there to learn and share. And I think we share a desire to educate and entertain. Like, we like to teach and we like to make sure people are having fun too, and we're aligned on that.

And our other interactions are mostly around things like doing a podcast where we have a shared goal of creating content for someone else. I didn't think we were pals as much because we don't hang out outside of these professional settings. Or when there's not a goal. We've talked about video games. We've talked about. sports, but we've never actually done them together. And so, I'm like, would I invite Trevor, like, to play Mario Kart with me? He'd say no, but that... I wouldn't have thought to do it. Yeah.

You would have been right to not do it. Why? Because he doesn't play Mario Kart? Yeah, but also, I'm not going to house to play Mario Kart. Like, that's a long journey for a very short journey. No, no, to play online. Or to play to conference. Give me more games.

Maybe the games threw me off. Give me another game. Give me another game. Super Smash. Mortal Kombat. You're missing. Are these your favorite games? I mean, I...

It's what I grew up on. You've got to give me more. You got to give me more. Wait, wait, wait. So if you invited me to a game night, I'd come. If I invite, you would come to a game night? Thousand percent, yes. Really?

Thousand percent. I've never asked you because I assumed we weren't pals. Nope. Thousand percent. Game night, I'm there like a, bear in my. Will you travel? Without a?

K. Okay. How far are you going to say? Nothing. Oh, I was like, I don't know where this goes now. How far will you go for a game night? As far as I can go. I mean, you wouldn't travel from one city to another,

but you'd go to the, other end of Manhattan. I'll go from Janiceburg to Pretoria. Yeah. 50 kilometers or so. Yeah, but I mean, it's like, so it's more about like the, it's not about the distance or it's just the effort that it involves.

Yeah. And the convenience of the goal. Does this mean you like, you like PAL activities in general? A lot. So, so I'll, so maybe I'll answer your question by saying this. So the reason I would have assumed that we were more PAL tiny bit allies,

because I also acknowledge what you're saying. We meet in many settings where we're trying to figure things out. Which is a part I didn't know. Right? Yeah, you didn't have any of that context. So I couldn't add it. But still, I enjoy solving puzzles with you. I like how you look at data, how you work with it.

I love arguing with you about the findings. That's my favorite thing about Adam is I'll go like, I read this that you said, I disagree. Oh, that reminds me. There's a new one that I have for you that I saw you say. I can't wait to fight about this. I'll tell it to you now so we don't forget it. You said it was about the couple that had an affair.

Remember the CEO at the Coldplay concert? Yes, yes. And then you said, Integrity. You said integrity. You said there is merit. I don't want to butcher what you said, but you basically said something to the effect of there's merit to firing somebody

or because they had an affair because it shows that they can't be trusted in other parts. Their moral integrity is compromised. Their moral integrity. Then I watched that and I went, ha-ha, my friend. The next time I see you, it is on like Donkey Kong. I can't wait to fight about this one.

And notice that Trevor did not like that post, but he was lurking and hating on it and waiting to argue with me about it. Because they don't give you, you see, the problem with online is they don't give you nuance. I don't want to like the thing because I don't like what you said. But I like that you said it. So I wish they had a, they should have a, I like that this exists button. And I like what the person said button.

You know when you said lurking, I imagine Trevor, wearing like a cape with a hoody. Walking around damp streets just, no, talking around and lurking. No, wrong image. He's a troll. He hides under a bridge.

He's just like lurking waiting and be like, I disagree. No, because you get what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, I've seen videos online of like the most devastating thing. There's a flood. There's a horrible. And then people like, like, like, I'm like, no, what are you liking?

There should be an important conversation. Yes. Also, liking. Yes. It's also making sure that you see some of that in the future. Yes. For me, it's not like I'm approving. But then you're sending a mixed message.

But my problem is it shows the world you liked this. It looks like. Is the world going to show me more of this? Because it's all about me here. Yeah. No, but my problem is it's also informing. because they put there, Eugene liked this.

Now, I don't know what you liked about it. Now I'm like, how? My friend liked this beheading video. I'm like, have you seen my profile picture? Yeah, but I'm saying, I know you as my friend. Now I'm like, Eugene liked this video. Why would you like this? What did you like about this?

And then you might go, oh, no, I just want to see more of this. I'm like, oh, but that's what it didn't say. So for me, that's, I think something that could improve social media is if they expand it on the buttons so that I can say, hey, I'm engaged by this. Yes. It made me think. Yes.

I don't agree. But I don't hate it. I don't dislike it. In this world of doom scrolling, I want to be having such conversations with myself for every post. You're doing it already. Eh, eh, eh. That's a poll, my man.

You're doing it already. I'm not interested. The fact that they've even added interested and not interested button is too much work for me because I was like, you know, I showed that I'm not interested. You didn't like it. You didn't like it. You know what though? Now I don't want to be told.

This is such an easy solve. Like, click with your right finger or your first finger if you're approving. if you're approving and liking. No, that's a hard solve. Now I'm thinking, now I'm like, wrong finger. I wrong fingered. No, no.

Yeah, because sometimes I'm sporting and I'm on a date. Okay. Okay, I've got an easier one for you. I've got an easier one for you. Yes. They should just have advanced mode for people like me.

Yeah. So you want the simple chilled out mode? Yep. You should just have likes. Nothing else. Yes. My one will have a plethora of options. I want this.

I'm with you there, Trevor. Why? Because here's the thing. I have the same concern Trevor does. I don't want to signal approval of something that I think was an important conversation to start, but I disagree with the message. Because then a bunch of people are going to hate on me

and say, how could you support that? I don't agree with it, but I want to see more people who challenge my thinking this. But Adam, this post already has 39,000 likes, 40,000 reposts. Yes. Who cares what Eugene thinks? The extremes care. No, you know why they care.

They know that people care. That's why they put your name there. they know that if I see that you... That little bubble that comes up now. Yes. They know that if I see that Eugene... And how do you choose the three people that... Because they know...

Who you pay attention to. Thank you. Yeah. So they go, if Eugene liked this, Trevor's going to be more likely to pay attention to it. Because I'm like, what did Eugene like about this? Yeah, but the things that I've liked, Trevor, I've never seen you liking back or telling me about them in our normal conversation. Because extreme pedicures, that's my jam.

You know. Yes. That's my bedtime. They are your jam. They are your jam. extreme, grotesque, yes, elongated. Yeah, you love them.

Talent. The transformation. The transformation? The transformation? When they bring out the power tools, you love it. I'm in. When they take out the cuticles

and then the 90-year-old granny now is like, I feel like a new girl again. Yes. I love those. And I always like to show that, look, Vietnamese, a pedicurist lady in Saigon. I appreciate your work.

I love your job. Yeah. And then I like because I want to see more of that. Right. And then somehow Trevor will go past and see Eugene liked. And you've never liked back. Yeah, I would never do that because now it will send me more of those videos. Every action you partake in on social media will have an equal and opposite reaction to it.

So if I like it, I will now see all those toes that I do not necessarily wish to see. I love that you enjoy them, my friend. You know this. Me, I've never judged you're not even one time. Yeah, you never have. Never even one time. Never, never. So I like that you enjoy them.

But I wish I could say, I like that he likes this. I don't want to like it. I don't like it. You see what I'm saying? Yes. And then I also don't want to send it because if I do interact with it on that level, it now goes, oh, these two connect on this, but we don't connect with it. I just like that you like it.

This is, okay, so this is why people who meet and clash in one context can click in another. Because if you met Eugene as the toenail obsession guy, yeah. done, right? Whereas you meet in a comedy club and all of a sudden you have something in common. Yes. That actually makes a lot of sense. But so to finish of what I was saying with us is, so the reason I think the Pell thing, it's actually funny is because when you see me anywhere, I'm there only to have a good time. Is that true? I'm being dead serious. So you don't have enough pals in your life. Is that what you're telling me? No. You don't have enough pal experiences in your life.

What I love is exploring new places, meeting new people, bumping into new ideas in person. I like putting myself out of my comfort zone. I like remembering that the world is not just what I make of it. You know what I mean? It exists all the time. So I like to go to things that I wouldn't otherwise, wouldn't necessarily. I also miss like elements of school. I like how school made you uncomfortable.

I didn't like it at the time, but I missed that. It's nice to be like in a room where you're like, should I be here? Do I belong here? So those are all the things. So for me, that's like a different type of fun. But when I'm there, I'm genuinely like, oh, I'm just here to have a good time.

And then I see it, I'm like, hey, hey, Adam's here. Love this guy. This guy, my pal. I didn't know this. Yeah. And I think that you have, I think people feel pressure to come up to you

with something important or worth your time. Yeah, yeah, a lot of the time. It's very boring for me. You would just prefer to go for round. It's something I've become clear on, which is why I said, I think we have pal energy. Yes.

But I wonder if you could go further. So this is a huge dilemma that I think people have when it comes to, okay, I want to be clear about what wavelength I want to interact on. Like, I want to vibe as pals, not allies or companions. Right. How do you signal that? I'll tell you, the best one I've seen so far is I went to an event. There's somebody who's very shy and difficult to approach. Okay.

And nobody talked to him. And then the next time I saw him at a different event, he was carrying a chessboard. And I was like, oh, that's a pal signal. he is sending a message that he wants to play games without even having to say a word and I immediately went up and challenged him to a chess match we sat there laughing for over an hour and had a completely different kind of interaction

than this very stilted I'd like to ask you about your business conversation that we were having before and I wonder if there are ways that you already signal what kind of connection you want or that you could adopt basically what you've just explained is

why Comic-Con works I've never been to Comic Con Everyone's dressed like their favorite character Yeah everyone shows up As their character that they represent Or they enjoy or they would like to engage on And you immediately have CommonGrav

Yeah you're like I wouldn't talk to You know the last Air Bender But you Yeah yeah Yeah I know My man That actually makes a lot of sense

And I've also Yeah you see I've never considered Because we work with so much We rely on so much like mind reading in society and then we wonder why everything sort of doesn't work the way it should so

the world is equally filled with people who are annoyed that people approach them and people who feel lonely because nobody talks to them. You know why? Why? Because we wear clothes. Okay, say more Eugene. Say more. I'm... You know what? I'm in. Let's go. Our animalistic

instincts are covered by the sense we put on, the coverings we have, because it becomes harder to read us as people, because we've got so many layers and disguises. Animals, for example, are what they are. Okay. So they can tell another dog can tell if another dog is angry. Have you seen when they, I saw this one video where they're like, grooming your dog actually takes away from the dog's personality and how they're able to express themselves with other dogs. people who've shortened their dog's tails or trim their ears too much This all makes sense

Yes The dog can signal properly To other dogs Because whatever it would have used It's no longer there It's like someone Chopped your arm because it looked cuter Yeah so it's us

Now you can't wave As humans If we're interested in someone We have pheromones or estrogen Or whatever it is that we're excrete in the air But over our involvement We've learned to not focus on that And also disguise that

Huh. If you were sweaty and I've just met you and you smell like sweat, I would know that you were doing something. But if you sweated, took a shower, put some deodorant, I would have to guess what you did before we met. So you're saying you think it would be better if we were all like naked on the subway. And then I sweated to show people that I want them to engage with me. Okay.

Well, I was thinking about something else, but. Wait, hold on. Universal signal of interest. I think we're going to get a very diverging reaction from two groups of people. Yeah. So they're integrators and segmenters. Integrators like to blur different kinds of boundaries. And so they're very happy to turn their allies into their pals or vice versa.

Segmenters like to have strict borders between different spheres of life. And my wife is a segmenter. And the worst thing you could do to her is take her to a beach with coworkers. She's like, once I've seen your belly button, I can't respect you anymore. I can't work with you. She's not wrong. We do not. Wow.

I want to be in a professional mode. I want to be task-focused, and I can't unsee that. She's not wrong? I think integrators are going to like your experiment and segmenters are going to hate it. They want to be able to put on different personas in different environments. Yeah. I like to live in a world where our natural instincts are more prioritized than our costumes. Like the way we think we feel about something about someone is higher up on the list than

what we perceive of them. Like, if I'm close to someone, I'm like, the fact that I don't like being around them, they haven't said anything, I haven't gotten a description of what they look like. It's almost like I want to meet, every time I'd meet someone, I want to meet them turning my back towards them.

Wow. Because, then I have no visual perception to inform any other decision. But any of the visual part of it, though? That's why we have the visual. Remember. You just wants to live on love is blind, permanently.

100% Yeah, but now the shadow also gives something away. Also, I would love my eyes to me. I like how they say love is blind,

but then there's a silhouette, bro. The silhouette is saying something. Say what you want. The silhouette is saying something. Yes, but also I would... If it was love is blind, you know what?

They wouldn't be on the other side? Wait. Anything. Why do they say love is blind? It's not like... They should say love is blurry because it's not blind. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah. Love is backlit. That's a better name for that show. Yes, yeah. It's not blind. Love is poorly lit. It's not black little. You're like, yo, bro, you're making a lot of assumptions.

You know how many times I've watched that show? You've never seen Love is Blind. You've never seen it. Tell me what happens. Love takes place at dusk and dawn only. That's what happens. Hey, my friend, so what happens is they bring people, you know, into a room, whatever. They're like, okay, we're going to put you together.

You're going to meet random people. So, you know, Eugene is sitting down, and then a random lady comes and walks up behind, like a screen. All you see is the silhouette. Yeah. And then you're like... So the red light challenge, but they don't dance. There you go. Then it's like, hello.

Then it's like, hi. I'm Cynthia. Oh, hi, I'm Eugene. Oh, Eugene. No, you talk normally. Then the person says, oh, so what do you do? Where are you from? You talk, you talk, you talk.

And then after those, the person's like, yeah, I, you know, I kind of like Cynthia. She's got a vibe and I think we can get together. Then you know what happens? The person's like, they have to choose who they're now going to like love love. They go choose the person. Then they're like, okay, I pick that person. Then they meet face to face. You see there.

Love is not blind. Love was just blurred. You literally see people's faces when they want. walk out. There's a lot of like, oh, wow. Oh, you know. Oh. That sounds like a British version of a show that used to exist on a BBC where people are standing behind a screen like that and they start revealing themselves. They'll show up to their knees. Yeah. But they're naked on the other side. I've seen that show. And then they'll show up to their chest and then they'll say turn around. But the only thing that won't show is the face until you choose. Yeah, yeah. You got to

pick the person. Yeah. Yeah. This is so. So I would like to live in a world where we don't show up in clothes, but we have a skin that also stops us just from being cold so that we don't need clothes and we don't scratch ourselves with every cactus plant we meet. But also, to stop us from being the hunter and start being the prey, I would like our eyeballs to be moved from the front to the side. So we can have a better view of whatever's going on instead of going out, like scud missiles, just zooming in and looking for something, I want to be fully aware of whatever's happening around me. You want better peripheral vision.

Interesting. Because as much as I know there's every catalyst in my life. Can I tell you what you're going to have? Complete awareness of everything happening around you and the worst kisses that have ever existed. I just want you to think of the moment when you're pulling in to kiss that other person and your eyes are on either side of your head

and that other person is pulling in. And then when they pull out, your eyes are here on either side. There's no like, think of the romance in your way. world because you have to like dance like this with people to look them in the eye. Look me in my eye and No, you're right. So wait, wait, okay, so now how do we...

So I'm gonna bring this back. Yeah, so now how do we do we do we figure this out? How do we figure out what people want and what's actually gonna work and where people land and where they don't land? Like you and I, I thought Pell, Eli, you thought Ally Pell. Yeah, I was like straight on Pell. So now which direction?

Do we need to adjust our, just the labels? Or do we then realize that we have a different definition of what the other's supposed to be doing. I didn't have a preference in this case, right? I think you're a great ally and pal. I'd have no idea if you'd be a good companion or not. But for me, at least. Oh, okay, for you.

Yeah, and vice versa. Right. But I think that one of the best notes I ever got after meeting somebody happened last year, we met at a conference, and then she wrote me an email and said, I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship. And what I loved about it was she wasn't over claiming. She wasn't saying, I'm so glad we became friends.

And then I would have to wonder, are we friends? I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship. She's saying, I would like to build this. I read that and thought, I want to know what kind of friendship. If she had said, I hope this is the beginning of a great power connection, or I hope this is the beginning of becoming great allies or companions, that would have given me much more clarity? So would you actually do this? Would you have this conversation? Well, I'll tell you this. If somebody sent me an email, or I sent someone an email after I met them at an event or I was like or text or whatever

hey great meeting you I hope we become friends on day and then they responded what type of friends I would promptly block them and carry on living my life What if they send those three categories and a box next to each of them to take Well because the book hasn't come out I wouldn't know what they're talking about

but now that I've read the book I would assume Pell is the easiest depending on what vibe we had if we met in a situation we're working together, then ally would be self-evidence. Companion seems like one of those where, especially when meeting like a stranger,

it's weird for a stranger to just say like, companion. We're going one of the way. I want to be your companion. That's a, yo, I don't know anyone who could just like say that. No, I wouldn't do that either. Does anyone start as a companion?

Or do they all go from the other two to companion? That's such an interesting question. Because yeah, I think normally we would assume the companion is closer. But it's not always. I have watched people and make companions when they're nervous on a roller coaster. Yeah.

In fact, we were at a theme park together. And I think I might have become someone's companion when they were literally sitting there freaking out shaking. And I had to reassure them and say, your stomach is going to drop, but you're not going to fall out of the seat. You're buckled in. Do you know people have died at that theme park?

Are you serious? 100%. From what? Now you tell me. The ride fell and someone died. Yeah. I was telling the people in the rides with me. I was like, you know, people have died at this theme park.

I'm really glad I didn't sit next to you. No, I mean, it's just, I like that Adam was confident. He's going to be okay. Nothing never happened here. You're going to be high. No, no, people have died at theme park. I love theme park, so I try and keep up with all the news about where the accidents have happened. So the roller coasts have fared off and then clunged in.

Yeah. I think it got stuck upside down. And then what happened was like the mechanism started releasing. Oh, no. And then like a person dropped. And then one person, like, grabbed on. I think it was his partner, his girlfriend, whatever, grabbed her. And then held on, held on, held on, held on.

And then couldn't hold on long enough. And then let her go. Also, it was just one person? No, I think it was more than one. I'm not sure on this. But there was definitely at least a death. Now, below five is what? Let the games continue.

I mean, we can't cancel the whole ride. They canceled it. But it because it was like, yeah. No, but I'm saying cancel it forever. No, they didn't cancel forever. That's what I'm saying. Oh yeah, below five. Yeah, below five, I mean,

collateral damage. Yeah, let's start this machine again. I also, I do not wish, and I'll be very clear about this, I think it is terrible when anybody loses their life, especially unexpectedly, I think it's terrible. Yeah. However, as an avid roller coaster rider and theme park experiencer.

Connoisseur, you mean? Thank you, Eugene. I will say, knowing there's a possibility that the thing could go wrong makes the rides even more enjoy. for me because that is why I'm there. I never want to be the person sitting in a roller coaster like,

you know nothing can happen here. I want to go like, it is most likely that nothing can happen. Did you see that video from Brazil where the person went bungee jumping? And then they jumped off and then the people were like, ah, the rope. Yeah. They just threw her and left the rope.

Yeah. Like those kinds of videos, terrible. But now when you're going out seeking thrills, it's like there's like a little bit of peril attached to the thing. Not for me. You want no. I want no risk. So then why are you on the roller coaster?

The sensation. Oh, I see. Okay. What you've just described is why people... So you would want an AI companion then? Apparently. Just as once. Until your phone dies.

I want a self-driving car. Okay, okay, okay. I'm with you. Yeah, what you just explained is what people who do bear hunting. Yeah. With a bow. That's what they're seeking. They are.

Yes. Yeah, they go in there and then they're thinking, this thing can also have me or if I see it first, I'll have it. And I respect that because it's like going toe to toe. I respect that a lot more than if you go like shoot an animal. Yes, because you're also not allowed to hunt on the first day when you land. Why? So if you flew in because you don't give the animal a sporting chance.

So if you're landing, let's say in this little island where the animals are or you're flying into Alaska during bear season, you might have seen where the bear was. So you're not tracking and sporting. Oh, interesting. So you must give it a day. Then start from scratch. Give the animal a chance to smell where you potentially might be.

give yourself a chance to see his tracks and then the hunt begins because the hunt is both ways with an animal that's a predator. Huh. Okay, we learned something new every day. Yeah, I didn't expect that. Not that learning.

Yeah, Adam is like, I definitely didn't expect I've learned so, you know, when he leaves today, they'll be like, so what did you learn? So, um, uh, guerrillas. Fur. Yeah. Well, dude. No, no, go, go.

No, go. Okay. Well, when I was... I told you, why did I tell about... This is where I said we're pals. But also, why did I tell you about this? He will rescue me. That was that's true.

Hunting. It's true. And then he's throwing people off cliffs. Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing. I was thinking, I was actually thinking back to our, okay, how do you have a natural conversation with somebody without it feeling forced or robotic?

Right. And I think this is where a lens like pal-alli companion is helpful. Cool. Because if you have an idea. about what kind of connection you want to form with someone, or, you know, maybe moving from one to another, I would ask the, what do you love to do of a pal? Because I'm going to find out about their interest and their hobbies and probably something they enjoy. Yep, got it. If I wanted to think about collaborating with someone and turning them into an ally, I might ask them, what's a problem

you're trying to solve right now? Or what's a goal you're trying to achieve this year? Or what's, something you're stuck on? Because then I would find a way that I could be helpful in their success. Exactly. If I wanted to be a companion, I might ask them about their biggest regret. Or I might be curious about, like, actually, there's some great study showing that people are happy to skip small talk and vibe around a question like, what's an embarrassing experience you had? Or have you ever been convicted of a crime? And people end up, to your point about vulnerability, Eugene, they end up opening up a little bit. And then there's that, okay, I just shared something about myself. We feel more companion-like. And so you can interact on any of these channels in a way that then builds a relationship that moves in that direction. And I would say don't script the question, but think about which category of question you want to ask because it will affect the way that you talk. So here's why I think the work that you've done here is particularly important. The reason I think it's so important is because I think most people would still be stuck in the same, you know, dead ends that they were beforehand, even with the labels, to be honest with you. Even if you know what a pal or companion, I think you could still be stuck because it's like, how do I start with a new pal? How do I start with new companion? Because we still end up in the same, you know, cul-de-sac there. You come in trying to be companion. I interpret that as pal behavior. What's your biggest regrets? I'm like, huh, what a fun guy? And you're like, no, I was trying to hug you. You know what I mean? You get what I'm saying. So those things can still have a mismatch. What I think is powerful in your work is the illumination.

Because that clarity for existing relationships or even understanding why relationships maybe haven't turned into something, can I think free a lot of people from the self-doubt, the loneliness? Because this has happened to a lot of people. I think a lot of people meet someone. They get along. They do something. They're like, wow, I made a new friend. And it's like, no, you made a new ally. Yes.

And then you're like, this is so weird. We worked together for like three months on this project. And I never heard from them again. Yeah, because you were allies. And then now you start questioning yourself. You start questioning them. Did I mean nothing to them? They don't even text me.

They don't call me. But on the other side, this person is getting texts from you. Like, hey, buddy, what's up? And you're like, who is this? You know, we just worked for three months together. And now they're like, yo, buddy, what's up? And so I think that's actually, just from my perspective, I think that's where some of the biggest breakthroughs

will come for people because it allows you to understand what you are experiencing in your life. 100%. And not just be like sort of a victim to it. Yes. And also you're not a bystander to what the catalyst is doing. You're almost becoming a catalyst converter. Yes.

So whatever they start, you convert it. And then also we must never feel shame to extrapolate what we need from that catalyst. Yes. Oh, interesting. I have enough pals. I'm fine. Thank you. That is a much less awkward version of the conversation than I don't want to be friends.

Yeah. Right? Or just ghosting the person. My pal calendar is full. You know, I could have actually used that. I had an experience years ago with colleague who was known as extremely bright but kind of manipulative. My kind of guy. No, no, watch out.

I'm joking. Call me. Waldemode. Yeah, really tricky because people would occasionally enlist his expertise, but then they want to. they want to maintain some distance. Yeah. One day he invited me and my family over for dinner. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't want to be pals, definitely not companions with this guy.

I don't even really want to be allies with him. I keep him at arm's length. And so I just told him we were busy. He didn't accept that. And then he then issued another invitation and said, bring your kids. And I was like, oh, our kids are young, years are grown. And whatever excuse I gave, he said no. And finally I said, I'm trying to get better at saying,

no, thank you for the practice. Damn. You said that? I said that. Cold-blooded. Damn. He laughed and sort of cordial ever since. Nothing better.

Damn. Yeah. Yours is better. I don't have room for pals in my life right now. Yeah. It's better. Yeah. So when you have that in-built Catholic converter, you're like, I'm full.

I'm fine. I don't, it's okay. It's not you. Certainly not me, but the roster's full. Our team is not enlisting new players. We don't sign-ing. But is that true, though? Yeah.

I don't know. I think I'll disagree on that. How many Pels is enough Pels? How many allies is enough allies? How many companions is enough companions? And I mean this, honestly, like, I'm sure at many stages of my life, if you said, do you have space for a new Pell? I'd be like, no, I don't. I've really got, like, how many friends I've already got?

And in a good way, there's too many friends. I've really got so many friends. And then I'll meet a person and go, yo, this person has just become like one of my biggest Pels. This person has become one of my biggest allies, but I genuinely would have said to you, I am full, there's no more space, there's no more, how do we figure? Okay, like look at us for an example, right?

What you said earlier, oh, you guys are comedians, whatever. When Eugene and I met, we didn't hit it off. We didn't, we weren't like best friends all of a sudden. We weren't like, yo, this guy, I get along with. No. People said, you've got to meet each other. You got to meet each other. Oh, you'd love this guy, you'd love this guy.

Oh, you meet him. You'd like each other's comedy. really actually, that's all they were saying. Oh, there's a guy you'd enjoy, as a guy you enjoy. Okay, fine. We started literally the same week. So that's it. When we met, I was like, damn, I love this guy's comedy.

He was like, I'll tolerate this guy's comedy. We vibe in comedy. No, but we vibed, right? We vibed. We did not all of a sudden jump into like a bromance. And we were great colleagues. We were like good allies in that way. We had a good time together.

We shared experiences. we commiserated, and over time, the Pell side of the thing evolved. And then I would argue we became more Pels than Allies. And then now it's like, yeah, we can do ally things together and then Pell things together and ally, and even companion things. But what I'm saying is like, how do we, I know what you mean about integrators and, what do you call them?

Segmenters, right. But how do we not get stuck thinking that the frameworks are rigid and how do we signify or indicate what the parameters could or could not be or will or what would not be? And how does the other person even know or not know? How does that not leave us feeling even more ostracized than we were before? Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I don't know.

I just study this. Good luck. That's such a good one. No, no, I don't have a thought on it. Oh, I love that. Adam. Knowing, for example, if you're saying I've got enough of this, It's a difference between I'm a scumbag

that's having an affair in my marriage versus I'm a serial cheetah. I've just got this one person that's outside of my thing. Okay. But I'm not dating five people at the office. Okay. Just one, guys. Okay.

If that helps you, you're like, I know myself. I can't have five girlfriends. But one, I can manage. Oh, man. All right. What a crazy analogy. Yeah, I did not expect you to go there. That's such a crazy analogy.

Very thin line between Philandria. and cheetah. Yeah, but this is what I'm trying. You've said this to me, and I genuinely appreciate it as a line. You always remind me of this. You go, yo, your capacity to love is infinite. You know what I mean?

Your capacity, like we genuinely think we only have room for this many people. And then if you're lucky, you know, you step into a birthday of yours, you know, you add an event, your wedding, whatever it might be. And you're like, damn, I, it's only when you have to make those lists

that you're like, I know a lot of people in a beautiful way, a lot of people are in my life, right? But what I'm saying is how does it help people who feel like they don't have that? Maybe they have a lot of companions, but they don't have pals and they don't have. Maybe they don't have any, maybe they're just lonely. Like to your students, let's say a student came up to you and said, hey, Professor Grant, I need your help. I just, I feel lonely, man.

Even when I'm with people, I feel lonely. They'll invite me to a party and I still feel lonely. I'll go out with them, I'll feel lonely. I just don't feel like I have people in my life. What would your advice be? I think my advice would be to change your rituals for how you interact. A party is a really hard place

to make a real connection. Because that's a light pal vibe in most cases. You're going to dance, you might drink, you're probably going to do something fun. You don't get to know anybody at a personal level. And everyone is hunting the same prey. Okay?

Maybe. It's oversaturation of hunters? Not enough prey. I was thinking more, the introverts are paired off in the corner. That is true. That is true. And the extroverts are dancing on the table.

Those are the hunters. Probably. So what are you doing here? Ah! I was trying not to be noticed. Exactly. I've noticed you in the corner. No, that's what the corner is for.

I came here specifically so that you wouldn't speak to me. Oh, goodness. Yeah. So let's change the rituals. Yeah. Let's say, okay, we're going to gather a bunch of people to watch the World Cup. Okay. And inevitably, there's going to be a stoppage time or there's going to be a break in the action and we're going to end up having a conversation.

Maybe what you do is you actually create an event with different norms. One of my favorites is, have you guys come across Admin Night? No. I think this is so great. You know how everybody has boring tasks that they have to do and you don't want to do like taxes and retirement planning? There's a group of people who gather and they all bring their boring tasks and they do them together. No, what are you talking about? They call it Adminnight.

And the idea is, like, let's take this thing that we don't want to do. And we've now got our friends as allies to help us power through it and as pals to entertain us. You've helped me do the paperwork for that least that I didn't want to do. Because I was like, it's too much paperwork. You're like, bring it over. Let's fill it in together. As much as I hate paperwork, you hate paperwork. If we don't get this thing started, they will never get done.

Then I brought it to your place and then we did the paperwork. I mean, it's similar to like homework groups, I guess. I was going to say, that's exactly what I tell my students to do. You all have to do homework. Sit in the same place. Yep. Agree on when you're going to take breaks. That's exactly what happened, Adam.

And then come up with some interesting things to talk about. And the fun that we had after. The thing was out. Because remember our conversations on the phone about doing the things were long and painful. But it took us less time to accomplish their task together than we had just this free time afterwards. It felt like the first day of school holidays. after we're done and we're done within minutes but we spoke about doing it

for a longer time. Then he said, bring it over, let's do it together. So, okay. So that's an example of changing your routines. I believe in at midnight. Let's go to, okay, let's go to strangers then. Strangers? You want to have better interactions with them? Person lives in a city.

They go, I see people around me all the time and yet I feel like nobody knows me. I don't know anybody. I don't even know where to begin on this journey. How do I start? From the research, what have you seen that creates more than just a fleeting, hey, hey, hey, how you doing? How are you doing? Oh, good, good, good.

How do you go beyond that into any of the meaningful categories? So I think ideally what you do is you first say, do I want to start a conversation or do I want to start an activity? Yeah. Because those are two different paths, right? We can either be face-to-face or side-to-side. Those are the two choices. Unless you're Eugene, then you're face-to-face and side-to-side.

Eugene is cheekbone to cheekbone with your chameleon eyes. What I like about... What's the significance of that? Well, side by side is more conducive to being allies, right? We're going to be looking at something together and we're going to do a shared task. Face to face is more companion-y. We're going to have a real conversation.

We might go a little bit deeper. Yeah. And also what I like about that, people who struggle meeting strangers is because they don't realize that they've got a pattern that doesn't allow for interruption. So you have to become an interrupter in your own life to be able to notice something

that is an interruption that's good for you. So, for example, people who are very ritualistic struggle to meet people, struggle to be a connection to the stranger, they go in there, they buy a matcher, when someone greets them and is not a person behind the counter. Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Yes, but if you disrupt your own self,

do it at a different time, do it at a different place, do it in different ways, any disruption that comes about will have a meaningful contribution instead of having a destructive one because you're going, this is not, this not, you go, oh, this is nice. So your awareness gets heightened when,

You interrupt your own routine. Yes. And I think one of the easiest ways to interrupt your routine is to say, okay, what's something I would want to do anyway? How can I go to a place where other people are doing it? And those are potential allies or pals. Yes. So I already want to explore pottery.

Yes. Join a pottery. Yeah, take a class, exactly. Now all of a sudden you're more likely to meet a person, even though that's sort of a secondary goal. Okay, go line dancing. I just want to learn how line dance. I want to learn how to salsa dance.

I want to learn how to cook. I want to. Bike, run, go to a gym. So in a weird way, don't focus on, on, it's like if it was like a sports analogy, it would be like, don't focus on the home run, just focus on hitting the ball. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people assume there has to be a lot of similarity in order to vibe. And they think, well, I've got to find someone who just has a lot of overlapping interests.

And the reality is what drives most vibes is just proximity. Like, think about the kids you became friends with in school. Did you have something special in common? where you were you prearranged? Did someone do matchmaking? No, you sat near them. And through interaction, you built a vibe. Sellmates.

Yeah, I mean, actually, literally, in the case of, if you look at police academies, police cadets are disproportionately likely to make friends coming out of the academy whose last names start with the same letters theirs. Yeah. Huh. Because they're seated alphabetically and you talk more to the person you happen to be next to. And so I think if you could put yourself in an environment, join a group or a club, where people are doing the thing that you, you know, you know, you can do it.

you want to be doing anyway. You just have enough common ground that you can start the vibe. Oh. I like you, Adam. In fact, there's an experiment. Well, I'll just add a little bit of data of this. There's an experiment in the UK where people are, the sure version is they're asked to identify the existing groups that they're part of that they'd like to be more involved with. Okay. And then a group or two that they might want to join. And then if you follow them months and even years later, their happiness goes up, their loneliness goes down. because they've just put themselves in an environment where they can find people.

So what are those two things? A group that you? An existing group you want to get more involved in. Give me an example of that. It could be, I go to pottery class once a week. I'm going to go twice a week. Got it, got it, got it. And then a second is just a second group to join.

Join a book club. Join a film club and pick, you know, authors or movies that you like. And lo and behold, you will find some people that you vibe with and you're doing a task you already wanted to do. So you're not even wasting time. Don't press anything.

We've got more. What now? After this. So for years, psychologists said, if we want to help people get along better in romantic relationships, we need to train them in emotional intelligence, conflict resolution skills, we need to teach them how to fight better. And then a group of psychologists, basically, they said, what if we do something different? What if we compare the relationship skills building courses that every couple probably should, should do and no one really wants to do with something different.

And they do something different that's way less work and just as effective. Is there also something in, again, there's probably like a term for this, but is there also something in how, you know, like if you eat something really sweet, it welcomes you immediately. And then after a while, like, yeah, clapella, you know what I mean? You had enough of it. No, but it kicks you is how, like, had enough of it is like almost a soft version. Yeah. Do you know what, clowing at you with some things. You know, they'll be like, it's great.

And then it's like, ah, it starts clawing at you, I think they say. The too much of a good thing effect. Right. And then there's the acquired taste effect where it's like, you're like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And then over time, it actually has a more subtle, sustainable effect than the former. Is there something in that?

Like, when something starts off as sweet, we're able to, like, or we process it differently. Yeah. When it doesn't, everything becomes like, it feels like, better in a way. Yeah, I mean, part of that is the benefit of low expectations. Okay. If you didn't hate somebody, but you just kind of were bothered by them, then you're

pleasantly surprised when a better version of them shows up. You are. I didn't know you were this funny. Yeah. I didn't know you were. I didn't know you were. You're actually right. I thought he was stiff.

It turns out he can occasionally laugh at a joke. Okay. Okay. But I think the other thing that happens is sometimes we could just get a narrow image of them because we only met them in one setting. So I was think about a couple examples on this. I think about the two guys who met on a Stanford tour and both found each other obnoxious.

And then we're in a computer science lab together and started Google together. Larry and Survey did not, excuse me, Larry and Sergey did not get along when they met at all because they were both posturing and jockeying for position and wanted to be the smart person on the tour. You put them in the computer lab side by side looking at the same problem,

and they realize they both think search sucks and they have complementary skills to bring to it. Another example, this is a very salient one. Maria Sharapova and Serena Williams, icy rivals throughout their tennis careers. Right. Because they're pitted against each other. Yes.

And each one is standing in the way of the other's dream. Right. Now they retire and they say they're like sisters. They have all these shared experiences that they've gone through that only the other can understand. Yes. And you take them out of the setting where they clashed and put them in a different one.

They're also both mothers of young kids. They're also both venture capitalists, investors, starting companies, and they had this kind of once-in-a-lifetime tennis ride. Right, right, right. How could they not hit it off? And so don't prejudge your competitor when you're on the court going against them, because they may actually become a great ally pal or companion once you're on the same side of the court with them.

That is wild. That reminds me of those stories that you'll see where World War II veterans would talk about, like, meeting their counterparts. So they would, yeah, they would meet, like, the guy who was like in the German army and the guy who was a and then they say like we we became best friends and you go you guys were trying to kill each and they're like yeah but we laugh and we have stories and then they would even like ask he said that day that so where were you stationed so we were trying to trick you with and they're like yeah we knew we were going to try that's

and so what we are and and you're like how did you become friends it always makes me wonder if that means there's a path to I mean not kumbaya but is there a path to more camaraderie in society than we think there is. I think you can have better interactions with almost anyone. Yeah. If you change the context. And actually, there's a much simpler version of what you're describing, which is, I love this experiment where people go with friends or with strangers to a haunted house.

Yeah. And afterward, they feel closer. But only if they've debriefed and processed together and talked about the fear they felt. Yes. That the intensity of getting their hearts racing was not enough to bond them. they had to talk about how their hearts were racing by the same experience, that they were both freaked out at the same jump scare, and all of a sudden now we have a unique experience in common

that no one else can relate to. And those are often hard to facilitate, right? We have to create those moments, but I think a lot of people think that adversity is the key to doing that. Fraternities and sororities, hazing. We're going to suffer together. Yes, that's essentially what they're trying to manufacture. Yes, but I think they're missing the boat.

It's actually not shared suffering that causes people to bond more quickly. Okay. It's not adversity, it's intensity. It's the fact that you are feeling something strong. It's deep emotion. It's a transformational experience that brings people closer together. So something bad doesn't have to happen. You just need to have strong emotions that then you connect to the other person around.

But also I think there's telling signs of how a friendship started, which is a foundation, that people ignore once the relationship gets going. For example, there's people who would say, I think everyone leads every relationship that they get into that's going to turn long term into anything with their own preconceived notion, their own prejudices, and their own view of life that was formed way before you. So ultimately when someone says to me,

I didn't like you at first, but over time I like, my foundation is skepticism, pessimism, doubt, and preconceived notion. That's what we started with. That's the foundation of our relationship. What it turned out to be is something else. But there's other times where the person says from the first time I met you, I knew we were going to hit it off. If me and that person over time don't get along, I know what our foundation is.

So none of it is surprise. So what we often do is we choose to adopt the version of this foundation that we like the most. But it's not a foundation. It was just a wall that peaked out of the foundation. It just happened to be the first. It just happened to the first piece. The first piece. And it's also visible to everyone that we can go complain to about the thing not working.

because it's visible. It's like if you're trying to do a jigsaw puzzle and you started without the border and you just had a random piece, you might spend your whole day trying to find another piece that connects to it. Whereas if you were lucky to stumble on a border piece, it's much easier than to rule out a bunch

and zoom in on the one that matches. If you're having a disagreement or a fight with your partner, the one thing that you can do to accelerate this fire that is burning is to remind each other of the problem. But the one thing that will stop the fight They're on his track Is to remind each other of the first day you met

Yeah It's hard to stay Remember the first time I saw you But it's in the middle of a fight Two outcomes Can happen here Depending on what we remind ourselves of In the middle of that

But that is the foundation There's the boundary wall That's peeking over the foundation Then there's the layer That lies underneath Which the world was built on The one on top Everyone can see

then we can have our friends, family agreeing with what is visible. But the one underneath is the one that both of us, the people, the catalyst of this problem, can both know that the other people will never know. That's so interesting. It makes me think of, it actually connects to something that I've been thinking about ever since I finished writing the book, which blew my mind.

Can I tell you a quick story? It's actually going to be an experiment, but it's a story about an experiment. So for years, psychologist said, if we want to help people get along better and romantic, relationships. We need to train them in emotional intelligence, conflict resolution skills. We need to teach them how to fight better. And then a group of psychologists, led by Riggio, in case you're curious, Trevor, I'm not going to make you suffer through all the details.

But basically, they said, what if we do something different? What if we compare the relationship skills building courses that every couple probably should do and no one really wants to do with something different? And they do something. And they do something. different that's way less work and just as effective. Even three years later, the couples are less likely to get divorced after going through this different experience. Okay, so here's your curiosity gap. What was the different experience?

The different experiences, you agree that once a week you're going to watch a romantic comedy with your partner and you're going to spend an hour talking about it afterward. And that just agreeing to watch a romantic comedy once a week for a month is as effective. in keeping you together three years later as if you actually got trained on how to resolve conflicts. So what's going on there? Here's my explanation.

I think what's happening there is first of all, you get into pal mode. Yep. Right? We're laughing. We're watching something fun. Secondly, the discussion is about what the couple on screen is doing wrong. And so your allies on the same side of the problem. Right? We're analyzing it together.

We're trying to figure it out. And then third, because of those two things, we can be easy companions. There's nothing threatening about saying, oh, that ridiculous thing the couple did on screen? Yeah. We're not that bad, but here's something we can take away from that. And I wonder if this is something that more people could do. This applies to all kinds of relationships.

We don't have to start the conflict or the fight by saying, all right, we need to talk. What we can do is say, hey, let's do something fun together, and then let's talk about what this means for us. Yes. Absolutely. The best way to learn something quicker and minimize damage or collateral damage is to run a simulation. War games, pilots do this all the time. Also when couples, because remember that before there was structured entertainment, couples would be friends with each other

just to run a simulation of what the other couple is doing that they shouldn't be doing. Now we have television, now we have social media. We can run the simulation together. As many times as we like to avoid the thing that will make us adversaries in the end. But if we don't know why we're doing this thing, then there's a problem. Because the initial feeling that drew you to one person out of billions of people in the world. If you don't remember that, then there's no point to this whole thing. There's no point.

You can run the simulation all you want, but all of the people that you run the simulation with, whenever you want to have a connection with them, you must always ask them, how do you guys meet? They'll disagree on it. They will laugh. There's never a wrong answer. Whenever people are asked a cup Because one will get the anniversary date wrong But the one will not ask for a divorce

Because they'll actually laugh And go no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's not the first time we met. Yes, but now they are talking to each other and you Because you found a common thread between the two of them Which was the foundation. But people don't do that with each other. You run the simulation

And then you forget to have that anchor point at the beginning of how did this whole movie just start? Yes. Oh, I love the origin story as a point for connection And you don't even have to share it for it to work. I studied astronauts for a long time. And one of the ways you get Russian cosmonauts and American astronauts who grew up in their own militaries, they were actually ready to shoot each other.

Yeah. One of the ways that you get them to bond is you ask them about their origin story. What was the moment that you knew you wanted to be an astronaut? And they all become six or seven years old again. And they describe the experience of watching a moon landing or watching a space shuttle launch. And all of a sudden they feel like, I think that this actually speaks to something that people, overlook about finding common ground is people think we got to have a commonality, that is not enough to bond us together. Have you ever, like, have you ever met somebody in a foreign country

and discovered they're from South Africa? And you're like, bestie. We immediately hit it off. I don't do that, but I know what you mean. You know the feeling, right? You're somewhere random and you find somebody from your home town. If you met that person in your hometown, meaningless. Yes. There are a million people just like you here. It's uncommon. commonalities that bring us together. Yeah. Uncommonalities. The things we share that are rare. The astronauts are only a few hundred people alive

who can relate to that experience. Yeah. And so that now... That brings them together. That chance meeting on the 14th of July when I was going through all this and you're going... That's why so many people like at church, for instance, will hate each other. But it's like, but you're at church. And then they go, I should be liking everyone here, but it's not an uncommon... No. Everyone there shares it.

Oh, okay. And that's why your point of first meeting. or what have we seen each other initially matters so much because it was only the two of those people. There are only two people who know what that core foundational experience is. It will halt any couple fight in the middle of it. Remember the first time we met? That's so great.

Damn, that's wild. I'm still angry. I don't want to remember the first time who was so nice and I met you and that. Oh my goodness. You're still here. Then it's fine. So then, okay, how do you explain some of the, like, you lay out a few parts in the book that I found fascinating.

One, you said they show golfers who, don't share the same political views play worse together. Why? Interesting. So I don't think we know for sure, but the follow-up research that's been done suggests that when you are with somebody who's of the opposite political party, it throws you off your game a little bit. But what is this? Is it because you know? Is it because you say it? Is it because of your vibe? Is it what is happening? I think what happens is you you're worried about, am I going to offend this person? Are they going to say something offensive? Yeah. And you're spending extra energy, managing the emotions, and trying to figure out how to walk on eggshells

in the relationship. But it's subconscious. The person doesn't know that they're even... I don't know. They may be aware of it in some cases they may not. But yeah, just the feeling that we might not vibe is enough to disrupt my focus and lead me to golf worst. Pilots who are flying together with a crew that they're unfamiliar with, who are all completely qualified are more likely to be in a catastrophic crash. That's also in the book. Why? So people, So I think actually the best evidence on this is from a NASA simulation where they get well-rested crews who've never flown together. And then they compare them with tired crews. Sorry, let me try that again.

They compare them with tired crews who have just come off of a three-day duty together. The tired crews who have flown together make fewer deadly mistakes than the rested crews that have never flown together. Wow. Makes sense. Just a little bit of shared experience is enough to build a vibe. Right? As we fly once or twice together, we learn each other's strengths and weaknesses, we build effective routines. Exactly. And guess what? This is the overlooked dynamic of every great sports team. The New York Knicks just won the NBA championship. Yes. Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart,

Mikhail Bridges played together in 2016 and won a national championship together in Villanova. Oh. Wow. They had a decade of shared experience under their belt. Cape Verde. You were literally You were just there, right? Yeah, Eugene was there. We're talking about this

in the car on the way here. Literally talking about, yeah. That core team has been together for at least five years. Most of them have played together for a decade. You said this. What did you say when you went to Cape Verde?

They played each other or played with each other. And they like knew each other. And they like seven islands, but it's a community as well. Yes, yeah. So they knew each other and they have a philosophy that exists, that transcend.

There's no, when I went there was telling Trevor that I went there. Everyone I was speech, I would say, Vizio is a hero. They'd be like, no, there's other people in the team. Yes. Then I was like, no, it's Vosigni. They were like, yes, for you guys, because you guys live in a world where individuality is celebrated. Yeah, it's the whole team. That's exactly right.

So they never recognize him as a star. He'll get more appreciation outside. But in Cape Verde, everyone in the team gets appreciation and is a star. Yeah. And this is why so many super teams fail to win in their first. year is they haven't figured out how to vibe yet. You got a bunch of individual stars. But I will bet on the team with more shared experience

over the more talented team that's never figured out how to collaborate. Okay. This has been great. This has been amazing. It's been amazing. I have two things we left hanging. Two tracks. I love, you see this guy?

I mean, there are many more. There's only one that I've left hanging, which is the disagreement about the married couple. The Cold Play Fight. That one, I haven't left it hanging. But I just wanted to exclude it from the vibe of the book. Because this has nothing to do with the book.

This is just me watching Adam Grant on the internet going like, what? I beg to differ. This is what happened. Okay, he's going British again. This is what happened. You got off the dune baggie and then you took off the goggles

and then there was only a clean piece of skin. You're like, that was great, isn't it? Adam had his conductor hat and he was like, no, we don't have done. Oh, whoa.

Okay, what are the two things? Well, you got one of them. You got one of them. Okay, what's the other one? One was that.

The other, I'll tell you after, let's do this one first. Okay, let's do this one first. Well, it's brilliant. So, let's make me to start with my case. Yeah, let's make it a clean slate.

So let's make it a clean slates. Chris Martin camera moment. Okay. This is not about cold play at all. At all. No. No. I think that that moment raised a question for a lot of people.

Yes. Should we care about what a leader does in their personal life. Right. And the evidence I've read convinces me the answer is yes. Okay. So there was an Ashley Madison data leak

a few years ago. Uh-huh. Where people who are... That was the affair website, right? Yeah, that's the adult dating website where people can pay to find other people who want to... But it was specifically affair-driven, wasn't it?

Yeah, to cheat on your spouse. Yeah, okay. That's the app you use, right? Those data leaked. And guess what... America... You see where this is going. Okay, sorry.

No, no. So what you see in the data is basically there are a lot of professionals who use that app. Yes. And so a group of researchers get together and say, what if, what if we could look at people's rate of professional misconduct by whether they're Ashley Madison users or not? And what the data showed was you can look at CEOs, you can look at police officers, you can look at investment analysts.

Their rates of misconduct are two to three times higher if they cheat. on their spouses. So let me say that more specifically. They are two to three times more likely to commit professional misconduct if they have engaged in personal misconduct. People who cheat on their spouses are also more likely to cheat on their taxes. Yes. And I think that says something about integrity. I think that sometimes people say, you know, how you do anything is how you do everything. Right. And what that says to me is integrity is not a nine to five job. If you're the kind of person who is willing to go on an adult website and have an affair violating the sanctity of your marriage, that means it's more likely you are also willing to cut corners when it comes

to doing your job responsibly and ethically. I think greed is a good indicator of a person's propensity to transgress. There are other cultures apparently before they do business with you. Yeah. They'll start with a meal, but they'll put enough for everyone in the room. Yeah. And then they'll let the person that they're trying to do business with serve themselves. first, and if they take more than they deem necessary. And one person is short or two people are short because they took too much. Then they know the propensity for transgression is higher because of the person's greed.

That is such an interesting. It was a subconscious feeling. I mean, they didn't care who gets left out. Wait. They took theirs first. Eugene, they might just be really hungry. Can we control for that at least in the test? But their ability also not to eat also is an indicator of their patience.

Their willpower. What can wait? What am I here? You didn't leave your country or your hotel room to come eat. You came to conclude. Hospitality was extended. You had to consider everyone around you, but you did not. And people who are more other-focused actually have more self-control in those situations

because someone else is counting on them. You see that in the marshmallow test data. If there's another kid, you know the marshmallow test, right? If you have to wait 15 minutes to not eat one marshmallow in order to get two, you are more likely to wait if you're going to share those too with another kid. In other countries,

they judge you by your ability to control your appetite. Yes, but wait, you see, I love that you use that as an example. Hasn't that data also been undermined

by the fact that the test didn't take into account that many of the kids who failed the test came from backgrounds where they did not know whether or not they would get

another marshmallow in life? No, misinterpretation of the data. So if you look at the original data, yeah, socioeconomic status is in there. Okay. still often see the effect when it's controlled for, but it gets smaller. Ah, okay.

And the point is that... So it shrinks, but it's not like the overwhelming effect. You can still detect it. And so I think the conclusion that most of our field is drawn from that is when you grow up in an impoverished environment, that is one of the ways that you don't get the chance to learn to forego the temptation of one now for two later. Because if food is available, you eat it. Yes, right.

And so that's actually a contributing factor to your ability to delay gratification. And controlling for that is actually taking part of that experience that led you to build that ability or not out of the data. Out of the data. So now let's go back to the other one. Help me understand how you, how you, like they build that. So they'll go, we've taken the Ashley Madison, we've taken this. Could that not be that they've just found people who have like a cross correlation or they just happen to be? Let's let's, what are the words you used?

your greed is a great yeah but beyond there was devious not trustworthy no no I'm saying all of these things right propensity to transgress that's beautiful that's what you say there you go right so what I'm saying is Mr. Calling as a psychologist

yeah but what I'm saying to transgress journal article so what I'm saying is the if we look at it in like different columns would you not find that some people have certain columns where they go I will never transgress here and then they would transgress in others, and then as society, we've just made it like one flat layer. Do you get what I'm saying?

So that kind of compartmentalization can happen and does happen. And often you see that in research on moral licensing where somebody who does a bad thing in one domain. Sorry, let me say that again. Somebody does a good thing in one domain. Yes. Well then feel like they can cheat a little bit in another domain. Yep. Okay. No, but I'm even saying it like, okay, let's think of it like piracy is a good example. Yep. Most people. The old-fashioned kind? Oh, no. No. Or the good Not your favorite one. I'm saying like most people would, if you said like theft or crime, they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no.

And then you're like, yo, let me send you the movie clip or whatever. And they're like, yeah, cool. And you're like, but that's piracy. Then like, well, that's not the same thing. And I don't even like judge them. British again. You got to say, I don't even judge them. I don't even judge them.

I thought that might have been an Aussie, though. I don't know. You don't judge them the same. Or I don't at least because I go, yeah, but they are right. from their point of view. I even argue that society has done this on a larger level, right? Who, who, when we say it's the law, yeah, but why has the law decided

that drunk driving is worse than a sober accident? I argue it's the other way around. This is just me as Trevor. Whoa. Yeah, I'll tell you why, because I go, like this is my thing, and this is just like a crazy little rabbit hole that I always go down in my head is I go,

if the government makes it legal to consume alcohol, and the government knows that alcohol, Impairs your ability to make decisions correctly Then the government cannot now say that you should be held more accountable for a mistake that happened. Because remember, you did not intend for the action to occur. Capable. Yes, you made a mistake while you were inebriated. Oh, Trevor.

No, no, wait, wait. So listen to what I'm saying. I see where you're going. Yeah, so what I'm saying is it's the same way, because here's what's interesting. If you sign a contract when you are drunk, it's not valid. it's now not enforceable by that same government but the government now doesn't hold you accountable for the contract that you signed

but I'm like this guy this is a mismatch to me the government says you chose to drink and then drive so you should be held accountable I actually agree with that but then I go but then why is it that if somebody chose to drink and then sign a contract

the contract's not enforceable okay as the social scientists I have three problems with that argument I love this is why I love you Adam interesting argument this is why I love you let's go okay number one the easy one That only holds in a world pre-lift and Uber. It's so easy for people to get a ride. Not financially.

It's a big difference financially for somebody. Maybe. The cost of a ride in an Uber or a Lyft is way different, especially now that they've monopolized markets. It's very different. All right. Good point. All right.

I will soften that one. Okay. Second problem is, deterrence. If you're not going to punish the person for drinking more, then everybody is going to make sure that they're drunk when they're driving to get off the hook in case something happens, right? If you push that to it's extreme. You need a more severe punishment to prevent drunk driving.

But then why don't we punish the people who sign business contracts when they're drunk? Is that a societal problem? No, but I'm asking this. What I'm saying is the fact that we even have it as something in society means that at some point it was a problem. Okay. So they said that I'm of sound mind, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm supposed to be. So this is what I'm saying is like I go like, yeah.

Yeah, no, no, I see I agree with, I think we should then change the contract situation, right? I'm fine with that. Let's punish that more. Who makes you sign a contract, Trevor? No. So here's my thing. I get you. This is what I mean.

Going back to the... Remember what we're talking about originally? It's like the law of it. The invented nature of a thing. What gets me is when the A does not equal A. B does not equal B. Everything is invented. Everything is an imagined.

It's a construct. So I'm not saying that I am for every construct or against every construct. You just want a parody. A red light. Is it imagined? That's just the color, but I will stop at it because I understand what it does for us in a society. Yes. What I'm saying is it's weird to me when that same society will go, yeah, it's a red light except for when like this cool guy or this, you, then I'm like, wait, wait, wait, so then it's not a red light.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And some make more sense than others. So a fire engine, of course, it's not a red light. Then you're going to do the sirens and everything. But there's some things in life where I go, yeah, but aren't we creating that as a, as a, so to go back to the CEO thing so that we stay on the track. Wait, we're going to get there, but we have to finish this argument first. Yeah, okay, so let's go to this one.

We have a fight within a fight. Oh, I love this. Okay, so when criminologists study deterrence, yes. One of the things they find is it's not just the consequence that matters. It's the social signal it sends. And so by severely punishing drunk driving, you stigmatize it. And you lead all the conditional offenders who say,

well, I'm probably not going to get in an accident, and I'm probably not going to get caught to say, oh, everyone agrees this is wrong because there's a harsh punishment, and then they're less likely to do it. Yes, but also I find that... But is that always true, though? Yeah, with a lot of Western laws, we also forget that besides the fact that it was punitive,

it was also class-based. So that's why certain crimes that are alike have different meanings. That's my point. Murder, culpable homicide. But that's my point. Thank you, Eugene. You're saying my point.

If you run outside in the streets right now, and you grab a... No, but that is what I'm trying to say. You said it better. You go and you grab a woman's handbag. I'm telling you now, the way the law will judge you will be very different if you worked in a big bank

and you found a way to take one cent off everybody's bank account for some arbitrary charge that didn't actually really exist you've stolen way more than a handbag but because of the way the system is created they will go yeah this is fraud yes it was just it was created

so that the upper class can be able to defend themselves and get out of it that's exactly my point that's about it White-collar crime is underpunished relative to blue-collar crime. The fact that it's even called white collar. Yeah. Yes. It's like, why did we call it, why does it get a special name? Criminal?

No, but a white, never forget the collar he weighs. Yeah, he's not just any criminal. An offender versus a transgressor? Yeah, like, why? Yeah, an inmate versus a prisoner? Yeah, yeah, why? Do you understand what I think? Yeah, I think that's valid.

I think there's one other issue, though, with this comparison, which is, I think that the drunk driving accident versus the sober accident. sober accident was an immediate error in judgment. Yeah. The drunk accident was a premeditated error in judgment. I don't agree. I don't agree. You can guarantee it doesn't happen by not drinking or not driving.

Yeah. Whereas you may be in a situation as a sober driver where you just cannot escape it. No, no, no, but you can't. There's more intentionality there. But this is what I'm saying. Let's say somebody is speeding. They fly through red lights intentionally. and they crash into a car and other people are hurt.

They will not be treated the same as a drunk driver who went through red lights and crashed into their car and then people got hurt. My brain goes, I don't understand why. Because I'm going, you chose to run a red light because you were in a hurry or whatever it was. And this person chose to have a drink. Now, I argue they didn't choose to drive

because as we said legally, they were not of sound mind when they made the decision to drive. But this person chose to go through the red light, of sound mind knowing what could happen on the other side of a red light. So I'm saying, this one was such a like butterfly effect of effect, of effect, of effect.

You had a drink that led to, that led to, that led to, that led to. This one was like, here, cause an effect right away. So I'm saying I don't understand how society can then go so comfortably. Because remember, I'm not saying that drunk driving is right or wrong. I'm not saying it is wrong. I don't know. I don't want people drunk drive.

And I think we should deter people from doing it. However, I don't understand why. You were so close to making me think again on this. And then what happened? And here's where you lost me. Yes. The person who speeds through the red light and gets into an accident is causing one accident. The drunk driver could cause an infinite number.

No, no, no, no. You can't say could because the other person also could. Don't cheat me at them. You've got to use could for both. No, here's what I'm saying. You've got to use could for both. Okay. Here's what I'm saying.

There's two accidents. They've happened. Let's not even use the word could. No, no, but it actually matters because you have to know what their state of mind was or their intention when they made the problematic choice. Go. The person who steps on the case. gas going through a red light has taken one risk. Okay? Cool. The person who chose to drink and drive

has taken an unknown number of risks. They may cause multiple accidents. They may cause multiple deaths. And I think that is a more, the severity of that and the probability of that are both higher in terms of, I think the way that we judge risk in our society or harm in our society is on two dimensions. One is severity. How higher the stakes? The other is probability. How likely is this? The drunk driver is getting into a situation that has higher severity and higher probability. Also, remember that... I'm going to go with Eugene on this and say. I'm just going to borrow from you, Eugene, and say,

it's easier to make that a law because people who were being driven around on their horse carriage, like the carriage was taking them somewhere. But if you were riding... Because they had those laws about that as well. You were the one on the horse drunk, then you were the trouble. But now, if you got drunk and then your carriage would take you home, then you would be like, we need to punish these drunk drivers. And yes, they have an English accent.

We need to punish these drunk tigers because they're a terrible menace. Yes, but it's because you think that because you have the luxury of being drunk and being driven. Yes. Again, I'm not saying it's bad or bad. But what I'm saying is, I just find that there's an in balance.

And I don't want to hold you for this. So that's why I want to come back to the CEO of it. I will concede that point and just say, that's why we look at the intentionality, though, of the sober accident as well. And if there's a difference between a no-fault accident and you ran a red light. And running the red light

is closer to how the drunk driver would be treated. But to me, it should be the same. I think that's why also I think, also we have to agree that these laws were created years ago, centuries ago. Yeah. The issue of premeditation, why it's important to be added as a tag

is to nail you on something to prevent you from doing something in the future. That's deterrence. Yeah. Yeah. The fact that you thought of something that already is a crime. But they can't say that thinking is a crime. Cool.

Premeditating to commit a crime. Yes. That is a crime within a crime. Correct. But premeditation is not a crime. Right. Because we premeditated all the time. Yes. So what you can argue if you skip a red robot intentionally or unintentionally,

once faced with the consequences. Yes. Because the same mind that existed before you skipped a robot versus the one that exists after you got arrested. Yes. I'm loving this. So your argument in your defense could be I wasn't thinking straight, but then if you are impaired. Yes.

Somehow the other. Deliberately so, you don't. have a defense that can stand but if they let you go on your case of your impairment then they can nail you on your premeditation. So then let me ask you this. Why is it that in court

they will give people, they'll get off on temporary insanity? It just depends on who you are in your medical history. No, but do you hear what I'm saying? Just listen to the pause even in your voice. No, no, that's a hard one. Think about it.

We will in court. It's a control ability. We will in court go like, this person lost their ability. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So wait, wait, wait, wait, just listen to what I'm saying. Just listen to what I'm saying first. We will be in the same society where we say this person, temporary insanity. Just pause and listen to that phrase for a second. They're not insane.

They went insane for a moment. Ergo, we cannot punish them the way we would otherwise. Yeah, but Trevor, that's because we have a criminal justice system that is built on deterrence. Yes. And temporary insanity is not controllable or preventable. Whereas, inebriation is. No, but guys, temporary inebriation. No, why do you not have that? You didn't choose it.

You didn't make a choice that put you in the temporary insanity position. Yes, you see now. You didn't take a drink. Yeah, so now what I'm saying is... That's how our legal system works. Welcome to America.

But no, but I'm saying for me, those types of things, I can tell you now, they do not line up. I'm not saying I, again, I'm not saying wrong or right. I'm saying that they do not line up. No, absolutely. They will never line up.

No, they're not going to be perfect. Because the fact that there's also someone who's deciding if you're going to live or die. Yes, I mean, completely. All I'm saying is it doesn't line up. But I think your beef is at the level of how much do we take into account intention.

It's not the specific case that matters. So what, all I'm saying is, you should, this is like the phrase I always said to my friends is I go, pray to God, you are born in the time that you belong. As a friend, this is what we have to go through. No, but it's true. Yeah, Eugene, what's up? Pray to God, but it's true, though. You know, I've said this to you.

Not happy birthday. Yo. Pray to God. Yeah. You were born in the time. Yeah. That suits you. Yeah.

Because if you were born in a time when, like, fighting and hunting and, like, but I was, like, like, necessary. No one was calling you agro back then. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. If you were born in a time. There was what's called person environment fit. There you go.

I like that. Oh, I love that. Person environment fit. Yeah. You're basically selected. Excuse me. You don't have to adapt to the environment because you've been selected for it. You see.

You're built for purpose. So what I always go is, I have a high degree of empathy for people where I go, man, it must suck that you are in this environment where this has become the norm. Yeah. And now you have become the outsider to it. But in another time, you could have just challenged someone to a duel with your anger and then killed them. And that was the law. You're Nicola Tesla at the wrong time.

There you go. Yeah. That's right. That's all I'm saying. That's valid. Yes. So the CEO thing. So help me understand in that is like, how do we?

And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why I'm always, not skeptical, but why I always like try and like dig into data. Because I look at how many times data and studies have been used to unfairly and disproportionately affect people because they just go like, studies have shown, studies have shown. And then I'm like, yeah, but like the studies haven't accounted for so many other things, right?

So multiple times they would justify giving young black men higher prison sentences because they showed that they had a propensis. to go and commit more of those crimes because the data had shown that they might be more likely to commit more of those crimes. Until someone comes with data and refutates that data and then... We've seen cases where

like mayors run cities where they go yo, when you do the smallest thing we're going to punish you in the biggest way because that'll stop you. Yeah, that's true. That's a huge problem. If you arrest a kid for breaking a window they will never become a murderer because now they're just in jail. I mean, one way to stop people from doing crimes is to stop them from being a human.

I agree with that. You're right. But that's, that's, I think, why, and that's why I love, like, debating with you in this, because you help me understand, like, how you think of data. And then, like, I'm always trying to go, like, yeah, but did we scratch that enough? Did we probe that enough? Did we, because when someone says, we've seen that someone who is likely to be, you know, what was it, infidelity in one part of your life is in all of it, I go, like, I don't think that's true for people.

I know many people who can't focus in school, but, man, they can focus on tasks that take them to the furthest places in the world. I know people who can't socialize what you put them in the right environment and all of a sudden they become the personality and you get them saying, I know people and I go like... Gelsius Church, Your Honor.

Yeah, so I guess that was my thing as well. I was going like, whoo. Yeah. When do we use data to assume something going forward? Yeah. And when do we just observe data as a, huh, that's interesting. I think that's a great question. I think it's nuanced that's often missing,

especially when we share this kind of content in short form. So people have this knee-jerk reaction sometimes when I post a longitudinal study, and they say, correlation is not causation. I'm pretty sure I know that. I do this for a living. Thank you for enlightening me. And what I always want to say back is there are actually only three consistent ways that two things can be related other than random chance,

which there's a reason we replicate with lots of different kinds of data and try to rule out the random chance. Okay, so three ways two variables can be related. One is A causes B. The other is B causes A. Okay. And the third is C is a common cause of A and B. A causes B, B, and C is a common cause of A and B.

That's it, right? There's an infinite number of C's, potentially. Huh. Right? Okay. And so what we do when we try to understand is this really a causal effect when we can't randomly assign people

to, you know, be a psychopath, for example, is we say, okay, can we rule out the other two? And I think in this case it's actually really easy because what we can say is we're interested in the relationship between A and B, and we don't care if A causes B or B causes A. We don't care if being a cheater at work

caused you to be a cheater at home or vice versa. Right. Either of those past could be true. It could be that you go to your job and you get away with stuff and you get rich and then there's some dushy guy who wants to trade up his spouse. Right.

Or, you know, or, you know, or finally has access to, you know, to women that he couldn't get interested in him before because they're mostly men in the data. It could be the reverse. It could be somebody who cheats at home, gets away with it, and says, huh, I wonder what I can get away with at work? Right, okay.

Or what's the most likely C that causes both of those A's and Bs? The person is a sociopath. Yeah. That's what, okay, okay. And so you're getting, then you're getting to what I was saying, actually. And we could cover a lot of different seats, right? But I think the most immediate cause, if you see somebody who has both cheated,

not just cheated, aggressively philandered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to find an adult dating website so I can cheat on my spouse with lots of people. Okay. And I'm also going to commit egregious financial misconduct at work.

The most likely cause of that is that is a person who does not care about integrity and does not care about other humans. And so... So that is more likely a C that is causing A and B, possibly. As opposed to us thinking that A is the causing that A or B is... Okay.

But either way, I look at those data and say, I don't know whether it's A to B, B to A, or C to A and B, I might not appoint a CEO who is cheating on their spouse because that is a signal to me that they might have an integrity problem. It's a clue. Or you might appoint a CEO who's cheating on their spouse

because you know that they will do everything in their power to extract shareholder value at all costs. No, I'm not saying you might. You are right? Guys, guys, guys, are we going to act like we are not living in a world where corporations have done everything in their power to get around every loophole. You've nailed it spot on.

I'm not saying me. I'm saying some people may actually look at them. No, no. That's what I like about this person. And we've also heard of some stories where dignitaries in some smaller countries keep each other going because of what they do after the meetings.

There you go. They keep each other in power because they like it when they go to Geneva. They know what they're going to do. They go to another country. Yeah, because they're doing it together. Yeah, I think. You've thank you.

You've sold my brain. Unfortunately, you're both right. And this is what I've realized is studies shouldn't be in short form tweets. Let's fix that, Adam. No, no, no. We still want to share it because that's what gets people curious and thinking and learning and talking about it, right? But we don't want to have knee-jerk reactions. We don't want to immediately judge people based on those data.

So here's the caveat. That is why we need the I'm interested button. Yes, and that's also why we need podcasts because we have these discussions. Or admin groups. And remember that group of people that do the admin night. Admin nights. But this is actually a great example. You and I never would have had this conversation.

Eugene would have never been in this conversation. Had you not seen the short-performing post I did and said, I want to have a fight about that. Infinite Cs. And I love it. But I do think a giant caveat is in order, which is, you know, nuance that I think is often missing from this conversation. I think my message is we shouldn't just immediately give people a pass in their personal lives when we judge them in their professional lives. If somebody has a history or a reputation of unethical or extremely selfish behavior, in, even if it's in their personal life.

Yeah. That is a potential red flag when it comes to engaging with them, right? They've betrayed a companion, and I have questions about whether they're a trustworthy ally now. Yeah. There's a difference between going on Ashley Madison and repeatedly cheating on your spouse with lots of different people and paying money for that service and having fallen in love with one person in a loveless marriage, right? I think that latter person is less unethical than the former person. Oh, okay, okay. So I want the context.

I see what you're saying. So culpable homicide versus okay. Homicide. You see what I love is, but this is what I love about all of it. And that's what I love about like, that's what I always love about chatting to you. And that's maybe I think why the book will be really cool for people interesting is

literally I don't think we see the object from the same perspective. But hearing how you observe it makes me more interested in your brain. And then going back and forth makes us then laugh and chat and then discover new things. and fine. But if you said, do you agree, I'd be like, no, we don't agree on these things, but we agree on many other things. In the context, there's no way.

Yes. And you know what I mean? So this is, thank you, pal. No, thank you. This is really fun. This is great. You see, if A wasn't here, then B and Buer, but if it wasn't for C,

aha, you've been here without you, my man. Wait, I have to know. Yeah. You said you were doing an experiment at the beginning. Yes. To help us vibe. Yeah. What hypothesis for you,

testing and how did you how did you plant the seeds for our outcomes of the study so what you purposely put eugene and me in the green room together so that we could get to know each other yes so everything everything i wanted to see what i could apply from your book to this vibe to see how it would or wouldn't affect it so i went what elements of conflict what will elements of conflict bring out in us saying what we feel or do not feel how will that move the conversation or not move the conversation. Enjoying talking about random things that are just fun and, you know,

meaningless and benign. How will that affect the conversation? Sharing intimate details about ourselves as people. How will that affect the interaction, et cetera, et cetera. So all these things, because I was like, huh, this is like an interesting experiment to do on the experimenter to see how it actually works. And what did you learn from the experiment?

I mean, it was a good time. I don't know if I should call the human rights commission of peter I feel like I was a part of an experiment without my knowledge but I must say that idea of us having a gorilla bodyguard we're doing it

we're doing it we're doing it Adam Grant this has been amazing thank you for having me it's been a joy and an honor this is dope man thank you this segment is brought to you by Whole Foods Market you know Eugene

I've realized the busier my life gets the more obsessed I've become with tiny systems, but not like big systems, you know what I mean? I'm not one of those people who's like, oh, I'm waking up at four in the morning, meditating for two hours and then plunging myself into an ice bath. No, no, no, no, no. I don't mean that. I don't have the discipline.

I mean little systems that, like, stop your life from falling apart when everything gets busy. Do you know what I mean? And, like, travel is where I've noticed it the most. Okay, like, you see, like, packing. You see, like, packing. So when I get into a hotel room, I have my packing. Everything has a place. So charges go into one place.

Shoes must go into the same place. Passport, same pocket, every single time. Because once you've spent 20 minutes destroying a hotel room looking for one sock, you change as a person, bro. You can't be the same. At first, you're looking normally. Oh, where's my sock? Where's my sock?

Now you're checking under the bed. Then there five minutes later, you're accusing the housekeeping. Somebody has taken my sock. Somebody's taken. Why would they want one sock? This is not a question. I ask myself. Now I'm there. I know it was you.

I saw you here the other day. They're there every day, but that's not the point. The point is now I don't have a sock because I didn't have a system. Now what am I supposed to do? That's why socks come in too. What? Yeah, in case you lose the other one. No, man.

What, that doesn't? No, no, no. Hmm? First of all, who's wearing one sock? No, Eugene. You! Wait. Okay, no.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Look, all I'm saying is this is about food. Okay. You see, with food, food is probably where all of these systems are needed the most. because when your day gets crazy, when your day gets crazy, what happens? Food is where you start negotiating with yourself, right? Like you've been working the whole day, you've got 20 minutes before the next thing, you start starving. And then suddenly your standards start collapsing.

Yeah, you go from, you know, I want to eat something good. And then you go to like, I just need something quick. And then all of a sudden you're standing over the hotel mini bar going, yeah, cashew's protein. and this is good. It's a chocolate protein, cashew bar. Do you get what I'm saying? 100%.

Yeah. It's not good for you, you know, because the hunger, the hunger takes over. It's persuasive, man. Hunger can justify anything. Hungry Trevor.

You don't want to know that guy. I've looked at like a can of like fruit-flavored something, be like, yeah, this is fruit. Technically, it's fruit, it's fruit-flavored, you know? Yeah. This has a picture of a mountain on it. People have survived for weeks on less, you know? It's a mountain.

If it has a picture of a mountain, then it's healthy. Exactly. Yeah. You know what I mean? You are hungry, Trevor. So what I've learned is you have to make some decisions before the hungry version of you gets involved.

And that, my friend, is where for me, Whole Foods Market fits into my life when things get hectic. Right? Because I can go in, grab something to eat, and then I keep moving. I just keep moving without turning lunch into another, like, research project. Because Whole Foods Market already has standards about what they carry. So they take the burden for me.

Does it make sense? Absolutely. Like all eggs store. or cage-free or better, all the seafood is wild-court or verified, responsibly farmed, and traceable to the farm or the fishery, even the tinned fish, even the tin fish. And I like that, you know, because what I don't like is, you know, people are like, oh, you got to eat healthy. And now I've got to walk around the supermarket with a clipboard where I'm interrogating my lunch. Where are you from? Who gave birth to you? I don't want to interrogate my lunch.

I have enough decisions to make in a day without standing in an aisle conducting a background check on a tin of fish. Don't laugh at me, bro. You know what I'm saying. Where were you on the night of the 14th? You know what I mean. Were you born in a tin? You see. This guy knows what I'm talking about. What I'm learning about keeping standards is that you've got to find systems to make it easy when life gets busy.

It's not about suddenly becoming more discipline. That doesn't work. Yeah, you've got to build little systems that protect you from the version of yourself who's tired, late, and capable of making some deeply questionable decisions. Passport in the same place. pack the bag the same way. Socks on your feet. Yeah.

I mean, that's always... Look, man, what I'm saying is no way you're eating before you're starving because once hungry Trevor enters the conversation, it is too late. So, as fall kicks into high gear,

keep your standards up and visit a Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market. Shop in store or online. Who is one sock? They suppose... It's two. Yeah, but if they were meant to be warned

Together permanently, they'll have a string. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Senaziamen, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth.

Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.