What Now? with Trevor Noah - Asma Khan: More Than My Food

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

This week, famed chef and author Asma Khan joins Trevor and Eugene for a conversation that shreds traditional fine-dining elitism to pieces. The trio discusses Asma’s upbringing in India, the frustration of over-complicated modern technology, and how she discovered her passion for cooking through pure homesickness after moving to England. Between tales of hitting cheating childhood friends with cricket bats and surviving Cambridge’s soul-crushingly bad food, Asma gets real about how food is truly about identity, storytelling, and dismantling imperialist garbage. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

So I love pig trotters. Yeah. Generally, any, any, like, so it's like pia. You can't call them pig trotters. Okay, any hoof. Okay. Whatever, trotter or trotter?

Any hoof, any, you know what I mean? Yeah, so we have paya. Nahari. Right, so pig, cow, you name it. Just like, chicken. Anything with the hoof. Yeah, I'm in. I mean, the gelatinous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, yeah. So you can't really find much of it, especially like Hunanese, I think that's how you pronounce a cuisine in South Africa. So, Eugene one day says to me, he goes, yo, why don't I, I can cook that for you. Then I was like, shame, my friend, he's really, this is like a lovely gesture, but completely unnecessary.

Do you know what I mean? And then he was like, he's like, I was like, what do you mean? Then Eugene said, oh, I cook. Then I went, ah, I understand what he means. He means that he will put food together on a stove, heat it up and then ingest it. Now, many people can cook. Yes. Most people shouldn't cook.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I've met many people who can cook. Yeah. I've met many people who say, you should come over. I will cook. Yes.

And then when you go there, you go, I pray this never happens again. I pray this thing you've done to me should never be done to another person. If I could call the Hague, I would. Because of what? In fact, I'm shocked that you say. spent time doing this. The fact that you said we'll be busy for the next few hours and this is what you made.

Oh my God. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. I feel like the universe conspired for this interview to happen today because of what happened to me this morning. And I feel like you might be overqualified for this question, but you will indulge me.

What happened to you this morning? It's not really a question. It's actually a... For a word, we use. use a lot in India calamity. Yeah. Oh, now I want to know

what happened to you. Use the word calamity. That's not a small word. That's a loaded word. So this morning, bought groceries. Two days with the groceries. And I thought to myself,

this morning, let me make myself egg and toast, right? And a little bit of, of Italian sausage. Then I try to turn on the stove. The stove said, do you have the app? I said, no, I don't have the app.

Downloaded the app. Was the stove talking or does it write this? It writes there on the screen. You see where on the oven side, where it's supposed to show you the temperature of whatever setting you are on? Yeah, it said, do you have the app? Yeah, it says download app.

Yeah. Searching for app. Then I downloaded the app. Then the app said, connect to put Bluetooth. truth and also Wi-Fi. For a stove? Stove. Oh, wow.

Then I was like, okay, maybe let's give up on the oven. Let me go to the induction top side of it. Put the plate, put the pan, put the oil, switched it on. The stove said, do it did it? And I was like, we're in business now. Pick my temperature. Five seconds later, stove went off. Kept doing that.

Went on to YouTube, tried to Google what's going on. At the end of searching after five videos, it says, for the induction stove of that make exactly you have to have steel bottom pans yeah that makes sense yeah but I looked under the pans and they look like metal this is not a visual thing

this is a real thing because induction will not every pan doesn't work so calamity is also I think it's too big a word for this this is more why were the pants there in the first place induction doesn't work Every pan doesn't work on induction. The pens were there.

I know. I'm not disputing that. But I'm just telling you, it's not a calamity. It's a kind of you not knowing what you were doing. Me or the person that bought the pants? Okay. The person who bought the pants. So you've come hungry.

Well, I knew you were coming, but I thought you would bring a little tap away of something. Do people expect that of you? I did. No, because I assume if you are. a world-renowned chef who has appeared on chef's table, time 100 most influential people,

the royal family has come to your restaurant to participate in the making of food and then they call you to the palace to come and be honored. You would think now the pressure of food follows you everywhere. No. It doesn't? No, because I don't allow that to come through

because I am more than my food. I bring to the table the blessings and the stories of my ancestors. Is this an excuse, Asma? I feel like you're just giving us a fancy excuse for not bringing food. I was so good.

I know how Asma is. I know Asma Khan. She'll trick you real quick. You're like, where's my food? She's like, let me tell you about my ancestors. Then you're like, ah, so there's no food here. Do they have the Tupperware? No, I'm saying because you said ancestors.

I owe you Tupperware. I owe you Tupperware. Come to London. I'm staying. I'm, at least I don't have induction and fancy pants. I was just sticking in a hotel. an ordinary hotel that I couldn't even work out

how to use the coffee machine to make tea Yeah, that's a calamity. I said, shut up, put the water in, drop the button on that's all you know

this might just set off the fire alarm so I had to buy the tea I think it's a scam that they do it on purpose. When did we get here when switching on an oven and making a coffee

and has become so technical and you know what it is it's because somebody tricked us into believing that all things need to be updated in terms of their technology but there's no real reason for this your fridge doesn't need to be connected to the internet

that's not a thing your microwave does not need to be connected to the internet these are things that were working just fine there is no benefit to them being connected to it people like oh but then your fridge knows when it's empty you know who also knows when your fridge is empty you don't need the internet to know that your fridge is empty that is so true we just we've just

added it's almost like a a layer of difficulty yeah but it's it's also a myth of progress, I find. Yeah. Right. Sometimes what we do in societies, we go, in order to prove that we're moving forward, we have to add complications and layers on top of something when the simplest execution of it was actually the best.

Sometimes the real way to move forward is to go like as far back as possible. And then you find like the real sort of like the evolutions or the progresses that have been forgotten. I would even argue. You're becoming more and more anti-technology as you grow. You're older. What happened to you? No, no, no, I'm pro technology. I'm 100% pro technology.

The thing will be having shoe laces on your shoes. No, no. Let me tell you, I'm 100% pro technology. Yes. That's why I don't like technology in the wrong places. I think that's a very valid point because where technology is used in areas where it's not required. I think that technology has done amazing things and, you know, lives are saved. You know, you can do a lot with it.

But I completely agree with you that this is being used literally like a blanket on everything. And it's almost like sometimes I feel when I struggle with things that, you know, that everything has been updated and, you know, gone through this, you know, technological, you know, process. Maybe I need to do it. I need to go into some machine and get zapped. So I know what the hell is happening. Because, you know, at 57, I never saw a computer till I was in my early 20s. So I'm that generation. The year I left India is when we first got color television.

And we used to get just state television for a few hours. Yeah. And I feel I'm the most blessed generation without technology and also without getting into trouble. Because no one could then text my mother and say, Is your daughter at school? I've just seen on a motorbike with this guy. I know, but nobody could say anything to my mom. But I feel that technology is.

great, but I feel that this, my generation, is so blessed because we lived a real life. And now no one can, because you're constantly watched, you're scrutinized, you're analyzed, you, and we live in images in front of us, constantly feeling that, understanding that this may be filtered and maybe AI, but feeling inadequate. Because you're comparing yourself to something that's not real. And then you left in that doubt. Like I watch like an obsessive person, these cats dancing. I know it's AI. I know it's AI.

But I'm dying to figure out how to do so I can make my cat dance in a video. But I know, but this is like fun of it. You know, that there's this kind of pathology that you see. You know, a cat is like grooving and dancing. I just obsessed with it. I have like endless videos of that. But I just feel that, you know, there's a space for everything. All the lines are being blurred in everything.

I feel like you exist. in one of the last bastions for real, right? Because when I was thinking of this conversation, I was thinking of who you are, Asma Khan. I was like, there's so many places to try and position you, but you exist, you spill over into more than one space, which is what I think I've always loved about you as a person. You're so dynamic.

You know, you can say Asma Khan from chef's table. That's how a lot of people go, oh, yes, chef's table. I've watched chef's table. It's like art that talks about food and then it talks about culture and then it brings you into a world and if people know you from there

they'll know one side of you. There are some people who'll know you from your restaurant in England and they'll go, oh, I've been there. It's one of the most amazing places and the food and the stories in the kitchen and everything that goes into preparing this feast is how I know you.

Then I'm sure there's some people who know you back from India. There's some people who know you just from England, from getting your PhD. There's some people who, you're this person who's so complex and so broad and I feel like you have to be like that because of your life. You're like a product of your life. Does that make sense?

Absolutely, it makes sense. And I mean, you've explained it by then then I could have tried to explain to someone else why I am this person who I see myself always, you know, there's this kind of in Sufi Islam, there's a lot of talk about this journey of the river into the ocean. that is the ultimate thing but it's also what we say that is when you reach fulfillment as well and you reach that goal in life

and as a river I've always see myself as a force of water and I moistened the earth around me and I will never see the harvest that grows after I move on and I break the bricks and the stones that block me

and that block everybody my color of skin, my name, my accent my fabric that I wear So I have to be more than one kind of thing because it's not just that we don't have a seat on the table there are multiple reasons why you don't have a seat on the table I need you know a lot of people after chef's table told me oh wow you broke the glass ceiling

he was the first British chef on chef's table but underneath that it's very nuanced I'm layered I have lots of other things that I am but one thing I felt very strongly and I would tell people that I am not standing in some glass ceiling with glass around me. I want to bring the edifice down. I want to break every door and every window that keeps out people like me. Not just women, men and women,

who are excluded from having a seat on the table, who are excluded. And for that, I had to dig deep inside who I am. So from my spirituality to my education, to being discriminated as a child and being made to feel unwanted, unloved, surplus in a family. I clawed myself out of that to victory. And it's not that it's easy.

I run a different race from a white person, a white man. I run a different race from a white woman. Because in my race, I carry cultural. baggage, my choice. But I have to go through fire every time to prove that I'm good enough. But what happens is I come out glistening like gold. I know where I need to go. And this is probably why it helps that at different times I can dig deep into something I learned as a lawyer, my time in India

understanding the importance of solidarity between women so it's not that there's one thing that I can lean on I go through storms using different techniques because in the end I need to get to shore my mom would respond to this by saying amen no 100% this is like literally there are so many things you're saying

that I feel like I've experienced or felt through many women in my life. Like, you know, my grandmother, my mom, et cetera. It's a powerful and beautiful message and it's a vibe. But, you know, if I could think of where I'd hope to get to in this conversation is I'd love for people to see how you came to be. Like all the pieces of the stained glass window that ended up making Asma Khan the way we know you today.

because you throw it away so flippantly. But imagine, you're sitting down with one of the most accomplished chefs in the world who casually then says, my time as a lawyer, then you're like, hey? Do you get what I'm saying? Also, don't forget the coffee machine. The coffee machine didn't work. But I don't know if that was an accolaged gene. That was a, that's one of her trials and tribulations.

One of the many things us by has walked through. Yes, one of the things. But let's go backwards through your life because I want to understand how you got to this place. Because this place seems so obvious now like many people's stories do. You know, if I said to people, Asma Khan has one of the most successful restaurants in the world. It's based in London. She has a kitchen that is staffed by women. She earns the same as everybody who works in her kitchen.

And people will just be like, oh, yeah, well, this makes sense. Because look at her, she's a force of nature. She's, yeah, but where did it all begin? So let's go to the beginning. Where would you say is the most formative moment that starts your life? I remember this so clearly. I remember when my brother was born, who was three years older than me. So I was three.

Okay. And everybody came, because, you know, then you don't have a kind of Facebook text saying, oh, this is my baby, just arrived. This was 1972. And people came and didn't believe that I had a brother because after the two girls, the boy was born, the heir to the family name. And I remember at that time being confused why everyone called me a liar because my mother did not celebrate. My parents did not light the house up or distribute sweets, which is a tradition in our culture. You know, when a boy is born, a lot of sweets are given out.

Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah. And often when a girl is born, nothing happens. No fireworks, no, no kind of celebration, because it's like, it's almost like a death because the family has now got another burden. The girl is not so celebrated. I remember from then on that nobody believed me because nothing happened. And I think that that and the way that my sister stood by me really transformed things because, we are very obsessed about color and I was dark-skinned I was fat but I love cricket I played on the streets with the street children my parents ignored that my father would come and ask me

did you get out I hope you beat those boys you know I hope you did well but would not say it openly if he saw me on the street and drove past he ignored me so he didn't have to acknowledge that he saw his daughter playing on the street street cricket but when people

would tell me that I was fat and ugly in my extended family and that nothing, you know, good would happen, that no one would marry me, which was like the biggest thing they can say. My sister, who everybody loved, my sister still bloody looks younger than me. She's a year and a half older than me. She's a rock star. She looked, she still looks like a model, beautiful girl, fair, long hair. She was the princess in the family. And everybody adored her, everybody loved her. I don't think many people loved me and she would hold my hand in the darkness away from everybody

and tell me Asma, you're the warrior princess when you speak the earth will shake one day the world will know who you are I believed her I believed her because everybody who loved her thought she was great but that person believed in me and this is why at a very young age

I realized one thing if you speak up and you tell someone in the darkness you don't need to be brave to speak up say it in silence do something my sister by telling me I was the warrior princess today I am the warrior princess but it's because of her these are the transformation things that happened

when I was very young and I realized that my mother and father were not discriminating between me and my brother between me and my sister even though I know that behind my back and sometimes in my hearing I could hear people saying what's going to happen happened to her. She's the liability. That must have been so hard though. Like you're growing up in a world where

because when you know I think we take for granted how when you're a child, you're just a child. You're just being you. It's all you are. That's all you are and that's all you've ever been. Yes. You know, when you're an adult, you get to look back on yourself as a child. Yes. And then try and make sense of these things. Think about your parents. Think about your life. You try and reinterpret the experiences that you had. But I'm trying to imagine you as a child. child is listening to people talking about you as if you are, you know, like a, like a factory reject in a family. Yeah, and like a liability.

And the thing is that I, it was, you know, both sets of grandparents and, you know, elderly aunts and things. So I was loved by some, but the authorities, you know, big figures never kind of understood. It's still very raw. A few years ago, I wrote a book over COVID called All the Recipes I Learned from my mother. We went through the family archives. My grandfather is a photographer. I never remember seeing a photograph of me and my mother.

But I thought, you know, maybe it never got developed. It used to do it in this dark room. We went through the entire archive. And I remember him saying, Asma, not you, because you'll spoil the picture. No, Osma. no picture of my mother and me. But my mother went to a wedding. She was six months pregnant.

Someone photographed her because, you know how they say in our culture? Oh, you look like you're having a boy. You look like you're having a boy, depending on the shape of the stomach. Oh, in South Africa, it's your size of your nose. No, he's being serious. He is being serious. Oh, my God, I love this. He is.

He's like, oh, it's a boy. Oh, God. This is the funniest thing. No, we have this thing about shape of stomach. So the photographer took a picture of my. mother pregnant with me. So in the introduction, I used the picture of my pregnant mother because I know it's her and me. In the womb, I am there. And at some point, the publisher who was really lovely and my book editor was saying, we can just do an image. I said when that image didn't exist,

don't. Don't do this because I'll always know it's fake. I don't do that. I carry the scars and it's not that the scars, with all the success that I've had, I'm grateful for that, with all the accolades, no one sees the scars. Everybody has met me when I became famous. No one met me when I was nothing. But the scars, they still stay, and they hurt. They still hurt.

So that picture of my mother and me, and when they put that book together, that's my favorite picture. My mother, you know, looking embarrassed, you know, all dressed up in a wedding with me in the womb. And that's when I was completely convinced about one thing. That's my original home. For all of us, the womb of our mother is our real home. Now when people call each other immigrants, migrants, you know, people, the day you leave your mother's womb, we're all migrants.

And then after that, they're lost. Then you're out. You're on your own. Yeah. Then we are away. They are drift. It's funny how people use immigrant and migrant, but then depending on where you're from and the color of your skin, then they say expats. Oh, yes.

Have you ever noticed that? Always. Because expats are immigrants. But, I mean, let's be honest. Everyone wants to be an expat. Nobody wants to be an immigrant. And if you're planning to go somewhere else, you're a nomad. Ah, yeah, nomad.

Digital nomad. No man. I'm here for long, guys. I'm a nomad. I'm a nomad. I'm a nomad. I'm a nomad. I'm a digital nomad. Are you an immigrant? Ah, ah. Uh, ah. Please. Please. I'm a nomad. Yeah. And if you're there for long enough. Yes. And you're acceptable. You're natural life.

Of course. Of course. But it's only natural, my friend. It's only natural. But it's, wow. You know, you know what's so important about what you're saying is I think a lot of people will feel the wound. that they felt growing up or experienced in their life as they were being formed. If they're lucky, they'll achieve a modicum of success or they'll find themselves in a new place in life that doesn't look like where they came from. And then they feel guilty voicing that they still have pain or hurt or, do you get what I'm saying? Absolutely. But then what happens is they'll act out their pain, I find. Yeah.

So I think in life, if you are hurt, or if you're in pain, or if you have suffered or you've gone through traumatic things when you're growing up, if you're unable to voice those things, I feel like you will act them out, whether you like it or not. And then people wonder why someone who's famous or rich or powerful, you're like, why is this person such an asshole? Why are they being like this? I think it's because they can't say their pain. Yeah, you're right. I think it's vocabulary.

I think when you're younger, your vocabulary is acting out. That's all you can do. Babies after they're born. Oh, yeah, yeah. When they're hungry, they cry. When they can't sleep, they cry. So I think as you get older, but I also think when you, there's something strange that happened to me.

When I reached the age of what my dad was at the time that my parents divorced, I looked at their divorced differently. I looked at a man who wanted to do something else and ended up doing another thing. That's interesting. I didn't look at a person who didn't want responsibility. I looked at a guy who pushed a woman. away his happiness for so long and took on responses that they didn't want. And when he suddenly decided to stand up for himself, he had all of these people around him that needed him. And he chose

not to be there because he wanted to put himself ahead. And your story so much reminds me of my aunt, because my dad's sister was the only girl in the family. And she had four brothers. And every time something would go wrong, their wives, our moms, would go tell her. And no one cared about her story. No one ever said, how's auntie doing? She would make turns every time because she used to sell vegetables. So she would knock off from the, from the rank in town. Then she would make turns in every house to drop off a packet of something, onions,

tomatoes. And she would sit around for a small chat with the kids. Then afterwards, she would sit around with the wives and ask, how's my brother? Is he behaving? Then she would, the third turn would be her going to speak to the said, rather to say, but I think what you're doing is wrong. Then after she would just cut a lonely figure going to the next, because we lived almost in close proximity to each other.

But no one ever asked my aunt how she was feeling and how she was doing. And now that you speak like this, I'm thinking she was playing cricket with the boys and winning. And no one pulled it to her side and said, you're doing great. And said it in public even. Yeah. It's just the thing, the reason I speak. and the reason why I'm unafraid.

And we were discussing this before you joined the table is that I am here to represent first women in their graves. The unloaf, the unwanted, those that never got appreciated, who never were told that this korma that you made was beautiful or that, like your aunt, that, you know, every time you came for vegetables, it gave something extra to my table or that there was this kindness in you asking me how I am

because my husband didn't have time to ask me how I am we don't say these things to the women we also don't say it to men but I think that women particularly because we make it look like effortless people think it's valueless because we make it look effortless yeah they think it's valueless

because we don't you know I don't sit here and say you know, this I did for you because now you're going to have this extra dish and I've taken half an hour out of my time instead of washing my hair, I'm sitting here and talking to you. Women don't do this. Especially women of that generation don't do it.

So in that silent sacrifices that so many women have made, there is this hollowness in the storytelling. Every day I live one day less, all of us do. I try to tell the story of myself, but I also try to tell the stories of all women. Because in that space where they never said anything,

my voice echoes. Every time I come back to this, because I know the next dawn is not guaranteed to me. And I want to use, I want to be, useful. When that time comes and I'm submerged in the ocean, I want to look back and see greenery and moisture and that there is no barriers that I managed to break it even it meant with my body. Wait, Asma, you want to be buried in the ocean? No, no. That I don't want to. I'm scared of water. I was scared of water. I was scared of water.

I was worried because I'm not going to visit you. No, no, no, no. I'm scared of water. Why are you scared of water? Because I don't know how to swim. Oh, okay, that makes sense I grew up Do you all know how to swim? I do Yes, I can swim to save my life Okay

But did you learn late in life I did, yeah So my mom My mom tried to teach me How to swim by pushing me into a pool And then All that happened was I basically almost drowned

And then someone had to come in and save me Wait, hold on Was this a home pool or a public pool? It was a home pool So it was always there No, no, not in my house Not in my house So we were at a

We went to a prayer meeting. Like, you know, you'd move from house to house, right? So the church, you'd have prayer meetings. And each week you'd be at a different person's home. And she was like, today's the day. So we're at, we're at a prayer meeting. It was at the Voss family. All right.

So we're at the Vos family's house. And we're all in the backyard. He's making up the name. And it sounds like... No, no, no. I remember them. It's such a specific thing to me. Wow.

And so we're in the backyard and everyone's having a good time. Now, I used to love swimming pools. I still do. but I couldn't swim so what I would do is I'd get in the pool and then I would hold the edge Yeah yeah

And I would just go around the side Go around the side go around the side That's all right And then when I get to the shallow end I'd bounce Yes I'd pretend you're swimming

I'll do this It's good when you're a child I still do it now It's embarrassing Yeah It's embarrassing So then what happened So then

I was outside the pool We're standing on the edge I forget How this even happened People are talking talking about, I wish it was a drop kick. Then it was like talking, swimming, not swimming, whatever, whatever. And then someone said, Trevor, can you swim?

And I said, no, I can't swim. He said, oh, how can you not swim? And said, oh, no, I need no story. Then he says, then I said, I haven't learned. Then he said, oh, learn. You don't need to learn. My dad just threw me in the pool and then I swam. And then my mom laughed and then she pushed me in the pool.

Because she was like, oh, I've been. slacking as a parent and then she pushed me into the pool and then I flew in and then it was deep end saw us down and it's hard to explain to swimmers how hard it is when you're in water and you can't swim it's happened to me your body just doesn't know point it's it doesn't exist bra you just go to the bottom and you make the mistake of gasping so you and then and then water goes in water goes it water goes in and then i remember looking up you can see it's blurry you can see up through the surface of the water you're there you're there you're there you there and then eventually Mr. Voss jumped in clothing and everything,

jumped straight in, and then he came and he fetched me. And then my mom was laughing hard. She genuinely thought it was the funniest thing ever. And then I was like, you, trying to kill me. Then she's like, why didn't you swim? That's not. And then the guy who said my dad pushed me,

he was like, that's not what I meant. I'm sorry. So then I decided That I would learn How to swim for myself And I just did it myself It was actually my cousin who taught me Bulle-law, my cousin

She's a good swimmer And then she was like, okay, just do We went through all the different strokes You know, it was like breaststroke, freestyle She's like you got it, one of them has to work Oh, so yeah And then she was like, try this, try this, try this, try this And then one I could like pick up

So I can swim to save my life My learning to swim experience was more traumatic than yours, actually, and actually very dangerous. What did you do? Because we had just moved into this new neighborhood. And then there was a place where it was a dam almost. So whenever it would rain, the water would rise higher. And everyone would go there after school. But the thing was, everyone would talk about it at school.

So if you haven't been there, you're a loser. So the conversation would start about something, something, something. And it would end up with a dam. Always got to the dam. Always got to the dam. So one day after school, I was like, I have to stay. see what this damn is all about. But I still remember, you know how fresh water smells differently from swimming pool water?

And then we all went there after school shorts on small t-shirts because, you know, after school you play with your old clothes that are not so fancy. I remember we went there, then we stood there, and then everyone jumped in because they'd been there before. Some people were swimming from branches, jumping in. And I remember to myself thinking, yo, if I don't go into this water, I can't show my face at school tomorrow. You're a chicken, bro.

Yes. But what no one tells you about a dam is it's gradually getting deep. So it's not just a hole. So I remember the feeling of sand, river sand, under my feet and going and the smell and the dragonflies. And the end, the next thing, you know, feet are not touching the ground anymore. It drops off suddenly. And then the advice starts. Just.

It's the advice. as the water hits the ear, then alternating between the advice and the advice and the advice. And the advice and the advice. And then after a while, it's too far to go back. It's too far to go forward. Yeah. Then I decide to myself, this is not my day.

I've got an exam next week. My mom wants me to wash the dishes because I left without washing dishes because I just dropped my school bag and I went home. I said, I'm not going to die now. This is not how it's going to end. Obligation pulled you out. Obligation and responsibility pull. Because I thought if I die, my mom would come fetch me.

And she would embarrass me in front of all the spirits. You'd be in trouble. I thought, let me, there's nothing that I'm doing now that can save my life except for listening to this advice. And I listened to the advice and the coaching. Kick, kick, come, palm, palm, palm. And I kept on doing that. And the next thing you know, I was staying up.

No ways. 100%. I was staying up or staying up. I'm not trying this. Confidence grew. And then I was out to the shallow side. And then I just remember being, you know, hugged by everyone and thinking, you're a hero.

I was. I love this. The fact he didn't want to die because he was just worried about what his mother would do. That's crazy, right? Just responsibility pulled you through. I've gotten so many. Say something about African mothers too. I just thought she had powers to fetch me.

She would come and fetch me. Oh, my God. This is like terrible. The next day is too. Who said you can drown? Who said you can drown? Are you drowning? Who said you can die? Oh, my God, my God, what you think?

Did I say you can die? Did I say you can die, Wenna? When I go home. Oh, mom, but I'm dead. Hey, hey. Hey, wena. Yeah, well, me.

You think you're going to die here without my permission. Go home. Did you watch the dishes? Oh, did you watch the dishes? Are you bloating? Why? Who said you can bloat?

Hey, well, nah. Full rigamotes on my watch. Never. Yeah, African mother is the Asian mothers too. Same kind of. Same, same vibe. Same, same vibe. So wait, so I mean, obviously, most people don't understand your access to pools determines or bodies of water determines your ability to swim.

So you were growing up? I was growing up in Calcutta. And the thing is that, you know, in our tradition, we don't swim because you've got to wear a swimming costume. How do you swim? You can't go in shorts and a t-shirt, you know, like-oh, wow. So it's not that it, there was some cousins of- Sorry, because it's revealing. It's revealing.

Okay, okay, got it. And also, it was just like a lot of strange men around. And so I never even thought that I had to learn how to swim because it was like things you don't do. I have cousins who swim and, you know, like my knees swims and a lot of people swim now. But even at my time, in the 80s in Calcutta, you know, we had a swimming team in school. But because of the kind of heritage I came from, it was a bigger issue and a challenge. Okay. And of all the battles that I was fighting, drowning in a dam was not something I was worried about.

So I always, from a very young age, you know, I will not go to every battle I'm invited to. What a great liar. I will pick the battle that I know I'll win as well. Okay. So why go in and swim in water and drown? Because I'm scared of water. I picked the other battles that I had to fight. Like, you know, I was the first girl in my mother's entire, you know, my generation who went to college.

Nobody went to college. I mean, the reason I went, I mean, I make it sound more heroic. Nobody married me because by 18, everybody got married. But at 18, nobody married me. So then I told my mom, I can't just stay at home. So if you were married, education was not out of the question. At that age. At that age, you know, at 18, you got married and you went off.

I mean, like my sister went on and studied after her marriage. Okay. So some people did choose to do that. But at 18, you got married. And that was it. That was it. So everybody's marriage was arranged. You know, and arranged marriage is different from forced marriage.

Can you explain the difference? My favorite type of marriage. Yeah. That one. You've come to your right place. Yes. So, no, I need to explain arranged and forced marriage. Yeah, please.

Arranged marriage is a bit like being on Tinder, but all your family involved. So they all choose. So it's not your choice. And everybody is deciding. So you marry and they look at things like, you know, compatibility. You know, this person, you know, likes certain things, went to the same education, same school, same education, speaks the same language, likes the same kind of stuff. And there are middle people, aunties. Aunties who are a class act because they are interfering, prying, meddling, meddling people.

but they also arrange marriages because they will ask you things like so tell me what music do you listen to? Do you smoke? Have you tried to smoke? So they are the ones who ask these questions and then they will carry news about you to other people but because I was seen as trouble from a very young age

because people felt, even though I wasn't like defiant and doing crazy things but everyone saw me as someone who wasn't broken by the system that they had not overcome that I was resilient end, I think they could see it. I radiated that at a very young age. I did not, I was joyous and I, I loved, I loved playing the guitar. I wrote poetry. I played Shakespeare. I, you know, I had, I love playing

cricket. And I did things that, you know, were unusual. I had a joy, but I had gratitude every day for me. I was grateful I was grateful. I was so grateful every sunrise. I would say, yeah, I have another day. I'm going to do something exciting today. So I think that this kind of signal to others that, you know, she may be troubled. So I come from a royal family. So ideally, I should have married in a royal family. Wait, wait, wait. You can't just say that and move on. Yeah. Both my father, father's family, mother's family, both royal family. Okay. And my parents... But help us understand, because, you know, as you know from South Africa, sometimes people will be from royal bloodlines, but we mean like chiefs and clans.

And it doesn't mean that they live in a palace. So when you say royal family, what does that mean? Well, our palace, I should have lived in, but it's a crumbling edifice. Okay. So we have a palace and we have a fortress. Got it. But we're not like, you know, we don't go back generations of royalty. So maybe only 200 years of, you know, becoming royal.

Before that, we were thieves. Oh, isn't that all royals? Yeah. No, I'm being for real. though. Which royals just started as royals? Yeah, yeah. So we... We still need a visit to the UK. Yeah, yeah.

Let's not... But let's be honest now. Which royals did not start as thieves? Now we're going to act like you were just born and ordained a royal. Yeah. If you want to be a royal, you've got to steal enough for long enough that you become so powerful that you then... Then you acquire. You declare that you're royal.

You declare that you're royal. And then you're linded. age supposed to now clean it up. So like, you know, our ancestors claimed that they were descended from the sun. There you go. And, you know, descend from sun and moon. And, you know, basically. So basically, we were thugs. We used to loot caravans.

The caravans going across the desert. Wow. We looted caravans. Yeah, yeah. So that's what you're thugs. And we then, basically the king. Yeah. That's a separate thing as well. But we were not that. We stole. We just stole. No, didn't take money to.

And essentially, Eventually, then we were made royals and quietened down and given land, a lot of land. And we became, we were very rich after that. But they would have wanted me to marry in that same kind of, I don't want to use the word lightly, but it's class. They want me to marry in that same kind of level of, you know, of the other families that, you know, my sister had got married to or other cousins. That ain't happening with me because everybody who is a feudal and has a feudal son, I would. I would beat at cricket. So, and I would probably beat at boxing too.

I would beat at everything. It sounds like you were fierce at cricket. The way you talked about how much you played cricket. I was so embarrassed because recently I met in a random place. This guy was like, you know, I was your neighbor. I used to play cricket with you. And then suddenly my bad luck. You know, that time is when the room gets quiet.

They said, and you hit me with a cricket bat. And then suddenly I was like, oh my God. I remember him. I remember hitting him with a cricket bat. You remember him? Yeah. I remember after it. hit him on purpose or?

Yeah. Why do you? Do you accidentally hit people with cricket bats? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. No, no, no.

It was a part. Yes, you should know intention. Versus mistakes. Yeah. Yeah, so I did hit him. Because he was cheating. How was he cheating? He told me I was out.

Oh. And I wasn't out. And we didn't have, because nobody wants to be an empire. Yeah, nobody wants to be an empire. It's a kind of, it's mob rule. They all declare that. you're out. But when the bowler says you're out, then kind of too many people were saying

that I was out. I was only girl in the whole gang. But did he how did it? Because I want to know, what did you hit him then? I hit him because I was not out. No, also I also the bat was mine. I took the bat home. Damn, Asma was out here running these cricket streets. Yeah. So did you, did you, did you play in those? So when I went to India, I saw like huge fields where there's just, no, we didn't play in the field. There's like a hundred cricket games happening at the same time. That's the great. This is our religion. Cricket is a obsession in India.

No, we played on the street and then we had someone of the string stopping cars and then we would all clear out. So we played just outside our house but on the street. And then because in the 80s we had a Marxist government running Bengal. So they were very frequent strikes. There was a lot of labor unrest at that time. So then we would go on to the main street because there were no cars and because mobs were burning cars that were going around,

we knew no car was on the street. Then we played on a big road. And then we could have a lot of space. That was your lord. Yeah. Otherwise we used to just play in a narrow road outside my house. What was your forte? Bowling or batting?

Bowling. Bowling. Bowling. Why did you assume bowling? Fierce. Oh, okay. I was to bowl, but the thing is that, yeah, so I was so embarrassed. And everybody turned around.

And I was this diet of embarrassment because I was so apologetic to him. I apologized like, you know, 40, 50 years ago. I hit him and I told him I was so hard. No, no, I don't think so hard. He did cry but it wasn't that hard. It was more the humiliation. You can tell how much you've changed. You've gone the opposite way because you go, the guy says, you hit me with a cricket bat

and then you're like, I apologize, I apologize. I feel like in that situation, you go, someone goes, you hit me the cricket bat and you go, do you want me to do it again? Shut up. You want to do it again. Bringing this up in 40 years later. You'll be doing it again. That was very embarrassing.

Because I couldn't recognize him. He kept thinking, do you recognize me? Do you recognize me? And you know how this is? That means you hit him hard. If he remembers 40 years later, you did a good one. Yeah. So I couldn't.

I was too embarrassed. I said, no, I can't. Did you remember at the beginning? No, I didn't remember. People changed in 40 years. So I might recognize him. But then he told me, but you hit me with a bad. Now I didn't immediately who he was.

I knew his name. I knew the match. I knew exactly very. were and I remember hitting him. Yeah. I'm not proud of this. I'm very embarrassed that I hit people when I was. But then in cricket, that's how.

Problem is when you're very young and you play street cricket, these things happen, but they're not very frequent. So I think we need more of those things. You know, we were talking to Jonathan Hates on the podcast a while ago. But like in general, Eugene and I talk about this. I talk about it with my friends. I think there's a shortage of that in the world. today. And I don't mean it in like an old man like, in my day you're used to. No, I think it,

I think it was great that we used to live in a world where kids would go outside, have their own conflicts, have their own resolutions, have their own stories, but also you define your own world without your parents. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? You define your own world without an authority figure that's looming over you. I think now we're like growing a generation of people who are always looking to something and not just doing this. Yeah. Just. Just. What is this conversation? What is this disagreement? What is this lesson that you're learning?

You're swimming. That's something that's formed you as Eugene, you know, whether you like it or not. And I always wonder what would happen to people when their whole lives have been defined by the moments that they had with their parents because they never had moments alone, essentially. Yeah.

Like, I love that kids used to do that. I wish more kids would do that. Go outside, get hit with a cricket bat. It's a very different world. And the thing is, you can see this when the moment there is a crisis. and it's so much worse after COVID I run a restaurant

I have 41 staff the moment there's a crisis the fear and the panic there is no attempt like you know advice that you know use your arms and your legs get out

because the thing is that when you have been in a difficult situation and you overcome there is a memory it's in your DNA you now remember it alters your DNA that you

did it, that you got out of it. And whenever I've had terrible things happen to me, and the success is a, it's a veneer that hides behind a lot of battles that I'm, I still have to fight, which no one else has to, who's in my position, but I have to. I worry about this younger generation for whom, you know, challenge. is something that is so different from what we faced, you know. It's not that drowning moment. It's not that panic.

It's not that. And you worry and you, and I've spent a lot of times with young people now telling them that you are the future leaders. You must believe in yourself. If you do not believe in yourself, no one will believe in you. And as a leader,

you must be willing to go out first. When you go into battle, you carry that sword. And maybe it's because I come from this ancient warrior tribe. But I remember this as a child always, my father would always say you know, you've got to

stand up. You've got to believe. Because most of the battle is won in your head. Because otherwise you're lost. If you have to, if you don't back yourself,

no one will back you. Yeah. And why? Should they? Yeah, absolutely. But there's a whole generation now who doesn't think that this is a thing that, you know, that you back yourself. And it's, I worry, I worry a lot. But I'm also optimistic because I hope that they grow a backbone. They grow resilience in their souls.

And they stand up for justice and right and equality. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? I feel like young people today, like, younger generation. They may have been shielded on an interpersonal level a little bit more, but I think they're facing a more systemic issue than we were in a way.

And I could be wrong about this. But I find, I think it's like Gen Z and that young generation, I think they were the first ones, for instance, to sort of break the internet and how we see it. If you look at how they use Instagram and how older people use Instagram, they were like, we don't care about the artifice. We're not going to try and make this fake. We're not going to try and make it beautiful. We're not going to try and invent a world that doesn't exist.

We'll show you the messy. We'll show you the gritty. This was the picture. This was the realist moment that existed. Look at the kids now booing AI. You know all these commencement speeches that are taking place? And you've got these CEOs and everything coming to a college and being like, let me tell you how your life will turn. And then as soon as they mention AI, these kids start booing them.

To me, that's amazing because I don't know about you. feel like our generation wouldn't have booed the AI institutional thing. But we were dealing with like interpersonal scuffles and family and life and friends. You know what I mean? We were almost dealing with like the micro. And they're dealing with the macro, I feel like. And so maybe there'll be, I don't know, I don't want to use the word weaker, but maybe they'll be a little less resilient than we are in some interpersonal instances.

but I think on a society level, the younger generation is coming through with the fierceness that I wish we had sometimes, to be honest. I also think I'll speak for our generation growing up the way we did. Our parents are not around because they couldn't be around. Yeah, that's true. So that's one thing. And what I've noticed is how we behaved

was totally influenced by what we had. So if your parent goes to work, then at the end of the month in 30 days they get a salary that salary gets to do whatever needs to be done so that life can go on I understood from a very early age

that soon time will come for me to find a job and be that person so every moment after school was a good time with my friends because I knew it wasn't promised I didn't see any other 25 year olds having a good time with us at the dam

so I knew that when you get older you're going to have to get a job and do a certain thing have responsibility, stay in the back room of your house until you meet someone and then afford a house of your own. So there was always that moment of, I have to enjoy this. I have to play soccer after school. I have to go play with my friends. We have to go hunt for birds.

We have to go learn how to swim. We have to share one BMX bicycle amongst the 10 of us and one soccer ball. So the other one gets responsibility with their Christmas monies. You know, when the other one gets a BMX, the other one gets a ball. The other one gets a this. So we had this communal. We were bonded by our trauma. because we saw what it did to our parents.

And it happens, especially when you look at pictures, when you think my mom was 35 with three kids at that time. It's crazy. And she had already been working for this long. Yeah, it's crazy. And then waking up at this time and earning this much. And then I go, what excuse do I have when a flight is delayed, when this happens, when that happens?

So I get to look at life like that. And I was fortunate enough from an early age that I would wake up in the morning and go, let's get it started. I'd never struggle waking up. I never struggled getting ready for school because I knew that as soon as you leave, the good times begin. I hated sleeping because I was like,

ah, now we have to end the good times. The good times have come to an end. Yeah, the good times have come to an end. But where did, I want to understand like how your journey leads to food. Because, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, the girl who's out playing cricket and hitting people with a bat

and writing poetry and playing guitar And in none of these stories are you mentioning food? And yet sitting here with you at this table, your name is more synonymous with food than it is with cricket or with assault or with guitar or with poetry. Crevious poorly. So I want to understand like where does that happen? You're growing up as this young girl in Kolkata, India. You're forging your own path.

But where does food come in? I love to eat when I was growing up in India. I had always presumed that I would marry a prince and I would be some princess and some palace and I'd have lots of cooks and be spoiled. It wasn't something that excited me. It's not really something I wanted to do, but I kind of presumed. So I didn't know how to cook because girls didn't cook really. I mean, in our family, especially in my house, because my mother had a catering business.

So we had more cooks than everybody else. So, you know, it was mad. Our house was like constantly full of food. And just to cut you off there, so help me understand. I don't know how, you know, sometimes we'll simplify India or make it seem like it's like one place everywhere. There were some parts of India that I went to where people said most people sort of weren't cooking. They were just getting the food from place. Is that true?

How does that work? So, I mean, the thing is that there is, I always find it challenging when people think India as like a kind of, a homogeneous That's what I mean, yeah. And it's never like that. And there are huge differences from the north to the south. But also our food wise, you know,

there's wheat growing areas where people have roti. There are rice growing areas. Weed can grow in dry soil. Okay. And for rice, you need a lot of water. Rice grows in water. And so there's loads of differences.

And we are a very, even three villages away in India, you know, the baghard, which is the tempering of dal, is done differently. So we're not a society where people are all together. There's huge differences in people. And in my household, my father and my mother never ate the same food.

My father came from the north. If he saw a fish and if he saw eye of fish, he would just like almost pass out. He found, and my mother loved fish. She grew up and was born near the ocean and the rivers. And where my dad was landlocked, never saw fish when he was growing up. So there's huge difference with my parents, but because I grew up in Calcutta, which is the food capital of India, the best kind of food, you know, it was where, you know, so many cultures, you know, were there. You know, the food there is incredible. I didn't learn how to cook because I didn't have to.

When my marriage was arranged with my husband, who was teaching at Cambridge University, through an aunt, and my poor husband was like, you know, oh my God, I don't think I want to do it. I convinced him overnight. To cook? No, to marry me. I told him, I said, you know, you walk away from this. It's the biggest mistake of your life. You have no idea what I'm capable of. I am going to bring so much joy in your life.

Where is this happening? So, yeah, I convinced my husband. And yeah, it didn't happen. Poor guy. He's a innocent man. He still married to me. He requires a medal, you know. He believed in the story.

And he's, you know, very... How old are you in this is happening? So I was 21. 22. Okay. And I realized this is my one chance to marry an intelligent guy because I'd ask my parents. Wait, so this is also arranged. So the Tinder family had gotten together.

That's why you're my friend. Yeah, yeah. Get down to the gospel. Yeah, yeah. So they had, they found this person. They lied to him and they brought him to Calcutta under some pretext, which is not to see a girl. Wait, what? He would never have come.

He would never have come because, you know, my husband was not into all this arranged marriage stuff. he was teaching in Oxford and then he was teaching at Cambridge in his kind of ivory tar academic professor in economics So yeah yeah a treat jacket absolutely You know

A mustache Yeah and beard And cycling with you know And looking like Batman And his black down Going That guy So he was that guy

So he was that guy And also On paper I am funeral I come from royalty Yes So I'm everything that he's against politically.

So politically he is... So he's left of centre, you know, works with, you know, works on poverty, on corruption, on, you know, on, you know, failing states, all of that. So he's not trying to end up with some princess. No, no, absolutely not.

Absolutely not. I realized, oh, wow, because I told my mother, please, I want to marry an intelligent person. You might find any intelligent man, I will marry him. So they found this guy. But I realized I have one evening to convince him. and I told him this I said, you know, look at me

and don't see the princess in me because I am you know, I am fun, I do this, I can do that, I didn't know him I could cook but I did tell him I don't know how to cook but then this was much later after he'd agreed to marry me he told me oh I don't believe in gender roles I'll cook, I know how to cook

you don't worry, you just come and you know enjoy your life the last three months then I went into this kind of princess kind of mode where I had this grand wedding which I planned you know everything including all the food. Yeah, so it was so good that I managed to convince him to marry me. And the relief of all these aunts,

somebody agreed to marry Asma. And all the aunts that we didn't want to come with a wedding came. Just to make sure that they watched me getting married. My mother was like, you know, why is everybody saying yes to the wedding? I'm saying because they're coming to make sure it happens. To witness, yeah. To witness this absolutely incredible experience of seeing me getting married. Yeah, and I got married.

and it was very exciting and I didn't know how to cook came to Cambridge ate the really bad food that Mishdak made shockingly bad food But he said he was good No I didn't say he was good

He just knew how to cook That's what he told me There's a difference Yeah It's the same way when you told me You know how to cook I was like oh boy here we go Because Eugene did this for me

Eugene was like He was like Oh why don't I can cook Your favorite dish or whatever Because I was trying to So I love pig trotters Yeah Right generally any like

You can't call them pig trotter Okay, any hoof. Okay. Whatever. Trotter or trotter. Any hoof, any, you know what I mean? Yeah. So we have pie.

Nehari. Is that what it's, okay. Nahari, yeah. Right. So, pig, cow, you name it. Just like, chicken. Anything with the hoof.

Yeah, I'm in. I mean, I mean. The gelatinous. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. So you can't really find much of it. Especially like Hunanese,

I think that's how you pronounce a cuisine in, in South Africa. So Eugene one day says to me, he goes, yo, why don't I, I can cook that for you. Then I was like, shame. my friend, he's really, this is like a lovely gesture, but completely unnecessary. Do you know what I mean?

And then he was like, he's like, I was like, what do you mean? Then Eugene said, oh, I cook. Then I went, ah, I understand what he means. He means that he will put food together on a stove, heat it up, and then ingest it. Now, many people can cook. Yes. Most people shouldn't cook. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yeah. I've met many people who can cook. Yeah. I've met many people who say, you should come over, I will cook. Yes. And then when you go there, you go,

I pray this never happens again. I pray this, this thing you've done to me should never be done to another person. If I could call the Hague, I would. Because of what, in fact, I'm shocked that you spent time doing this. The fact that you said we'll be busy for the next few hours, and then this is what you made. Oh my God. So when people tell me they can cook, I take it as a, so I understand what, but he can actually like make food that is delicious.

Yeah. But I understand what you're saying. He said he can cook. He can cook. Yes. And that's what he did. He cooked. Yeah.

The food was no longer raw. Yeah. That's all it means. It was cooked. But that's when I really realized that I could not change the weather where I'd move to. And I come from Bengal where the trees are lush. And I moved to Cambridge in January and all the trees that lost their leaves.

I'm that generation where we didn't have internet. Obviously, I predate all of that. And because of the government that we had in West Bengal, we didn't see a lot of films from abroad. So you didn't see a lot of Western films. I saw Love Story and I remember crying. Ryan O'Neill, oh my God, so gorgeous. And then I saw snow and, you know, that.

But how do you go to an encyclopedia in a library to see pictures? I'm that generation. So I was a shock, you know, I felt, and then there was this bad food at home. Then I went out, it was bloody freezing, and all the bark in the tree was raw. And I felt this was me, that the tree would never have a spring. I would never have a spring. Oh, wow. And it was this kind of, I was so lost, and I yearned for home.

And I realized that the one thing I could do to change things, I couldn't even talk to my parents because it's no internet, no mobile, no thing. And I realized that I had to cook because in the aromas, in that kitchen, I would have felt the presence of my mother. Because I would have felt she'd come next to me. And it was, food became then not something I ate, but it became everything, my identity, my culture. my religion, my everything, my name. And so I came to start cooking not out of a sense of, sorry, I just, you know, my mom is wonderful, but I realize how lucky I am. Every day she lives there and she cooks for me.

And now she's kind of not remembering things too well that she still manages cook for me. It's a privilege in an honor. But, you know, 30 odd years ago, I cooked and I cooked and I had. and I felt as the aromas of the spices and everything that I was connecting not just to my mother but to my ancestors to the matriarchs who had gone

I was now connected through food so for me food is not about yes I love eating and I enjoy cooking but food for me is about identity it's about power it's about language and so much of the child challenges that we face today, we have not used food as one of the tools to talk about justice. Oh, that's interesting.

And, you know, there are, you know, there's things like that I will not use. I hesitate to use, like poppy seeds in Bengal, poppy seeds is used a lot. Yeah. But because I did my first degree in history, I know why we're using poppy seeds. They're using poppy seeds because the British forced the farmers on my land to grow puppy to get an entire population in China addicted to opium so that they could get tea for free, literally for nothing, and exported. Their desire for tea, they used farmers, my brothers, on my land to grow up. And the problem is that when you grow, and they controlled the price. It was a

cash crop. They controlled the price. They had a whole department controlling the price of puppy. the farmer had nothing to no money left to buy food so his wife the farmer's wife poppy seeds are hard crushed them soaked it and crushed it so they filled the belly of the children

so they ate pop they added poppy seeds to whatever little they had I refuse to use poppy seeds so food is not just about my identity food is also about speaking about injustice and the fact that we don't talk about these things

it's almost like you know why should we talk about it no I want to talk about slavery I want to talk about colonialism I think that British children and school should be taught about the empire yes learn about the Tudor history and all of this very good and but

you need to know so when you push a child a brown skin dark skin child and say go back home you need to know why that person is there on the land why they you know they were involved

invited as guests after the war. So many families are descended. Yeah, no, why they're there in the first place. Why are they here? Don't, the problem is they don't understand. They don't understand. The wealth of Britain was built on the blood of my people. And I see so much of the food, the fact the spices were traded.

And it's not just, you know, the Indian East India Company, the Dutch East India Company. Oh, yes. We're well familiar with it. And the atrocities. So I think that food should be a lesson in history and justice. And that is, I first came to food out of just loneliness. I missed my home. I missed my parents.

I missed being that child and being free of responsibility in this ivory tower in this university. I was abandoned and left alone and I struggled and you know my husband's a nice guy but you know he's an academic and a bad cook

and you know and he's a very very below average cook and you know and he like Asma still got that cricket bat out of the opera it's just metaphorical now that cricket bat is ready any time

I don't know and he would spend the whole night writing and listening to opera and I thought opera was the worst thing possible. Wow. I never heard opera in my life. He's really an academic. Yeah, yeah.

And it was like, you know, I'm dead. I want to listen to, you know, I want to listen to Brian Adams. I want to listen to Madonna. I know, I was like in the 80s, kind of pop music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God, I had to wait for him to go to the lecture so I could listen to pop music. And it was a kind of crazy life. But because I understood that, wow, people don't get justice.

They don't understand whose water is it, whose land is it? you know, the trees that grow on either side of India and Pakistan whose water is they being nourished by? You know, I think that's so important to understand the roots go so deep down. Borders are there, but, you know, even just a tree that grows, you know, where is the nourishment really coming from? And I've always been interested in justice

because, I mean, and that's why I did law and I went on to do a PhD, Steve, because I think that is important to understand and to be unafraid to challenge authority. Because with knowledge, the reason why there's so much racism and so easy to ignite hatred is ignorance. If people understood, you know, why is this, you know, Jamaican person sitting next to me in my class? I'm going to tell this person, you know, that, you know, go back home. I'm going to tell the South Asian child that your food smells. you know, your mom's wealth

did you know that the wealth was built on spices that is the base of that curry that that child has eaten? If you don't understand all of this, you're going to be ignorant and you will easily be assuade by people telling you random things

or you've got to hate them. And it's, you know, the fact that, you know, an element in my skin inside has made me a shade darker, how am I a threat to you? I bring with me the vibrant culture, the color, the music, the spices.

I bring life. And yet you want to hate me because of the way I look, because of my skin tone. I pity you. I want to sit with you. I want to break bread with you. I want to tell you about my people. If you get up from that table, having eaten with me and still want to hate my people, I forgive you because that's my culture.

Wow. I will let you go. But first, I must be able to tell you the stories. This is why, you know, in the Quran, the Torah, the Bible, there's always a thing about breaking bread. Always. But for me, that is so important. It's not about peace. It's that shared moment.

When I break bread with you and you, we have had a shared moment. We've all had our different journeys coming to this table. When we eat the same thing, we talk about what connects us. You might tell me about the bread you ate or, you tell me about something that you ate. and then we all realize there is more that connects us than divides us. Food is the greatest way to connect people and as an immigrant, as a Muslim, living in England,

I built a successful restaurant and I always say I could only have done it in London where people are open-hearted and manage to kind of build a business, an immigrant business with an all-immigrant female kitchen. And we have been embraced. I don't know many other cities where I could have done it.

I haven't tried it anywhere. else, but food has been used for too long as if we become consumers. And leaving religion out of it, and completely leaving religion out of it. We no longer say grace when we see food. We take our phone and take a picture. And if it's a nice picture, we post it on Instagram or we send it to our friends. It's become a tool of how successful you are. I'm in this really posh place.

I'm eating this fancy stuff. Or even if you're on street food, you know, because you've had the ability to travel to Mali or some exotic. It's a signifier. It tells you who, so the food is part of that story telling. That, you know, I'm not just in this cool place. This is what I'm eating. And we've become consumers.

We see it as our right. The fact that eating is a privilege, a privilege that not everybody has, not in the past, even today. That hunger is in our midst. So unlike a lot of other chefs where they use, They use food to show off, to impress people. To make art.

Yeah. I'm no artist. I am the storyteller you need in your life. Oh, damn. I love that. So this is the thing. I never see my, you know, and I think it's so important because this is,

everyone can relate to that beautiful meal. And, you know, in our culture, not anymore, our kids are sitting on tablets and watching stuff. You know, you see, and I don't remember, of course, I was too small, but I remember seeing other children being made to sit on the lap of the mouth and fed by hand

and the touch on the lips of the rice. Wow. And you can't replicate this as an adult. But I want people to understand that food is spiritual. Food is healing. It's the most powerful language of love. And even if someone trans trans transnational says,

you know, oh, you're all funny daddy and this is all. I don't care. I want to be emotional. I have the right to be emotional. And I have the right to use food as part of that emotional language. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this.

Well, people might say that to you, but I would challenge anyone to think of their favorite meals and disassociate them from a memory. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing more powerful than biting something, drinking something, tasting something, and immediately being taken back to a moment, a memory, a person, an experience, a time, a place. You can't, you can't, the other, this was one of my favorite moments, because I'll remember it. I don't think she will, but one of my best friends' daughters, she's now, I guess, you know, in the 18 months or something, somewhere that you know,

baby ages, this or whatever. So they were eating, we're eating Thai food together. So it's myself and it's him and it's his two girls, right? Twins, really young. And all they wanted to eat was the rice. So they keep going more. They only got like 10 words maybe now. More.

So I put rice on the table. We eat more, put more rice on the table. They don't eat the curry or anything else that comes with the food. But then on like one corner of the rice, some of the spicy sauce had like touched the rice. So Cora takes the rice. She puts it in her mouth. And then like, you know when you can see something that has never happened is happening now. So she first like she glitches.

She glitches. And then she like opens her mouth to try and take it out. But there's nothing there anymore. And she looks. And then she looks at us. And then she looks at her dad and she's like, and then you know when the spices like warming up inside the mouth, inside the mouth, inside the mouth, inside the mouth. The way she cried.

But it was like a funny cry because she wasn't crying like somebody was hurting her. She was crying out of confusion. And literally I said to him, I was like, you do realize. I was like, obviously she stopped crying because it wasn't the worst thing in the world. But I was like, this is a memory that comes from this like this moment. I'm like you He'll tell you When it comes to food

I'm exactly the same as you Because things happen around food You know friendships are made You stories are shared And hearts are opened There's like a He ignored me when the trotters came out Ah my man

My man I did the opposite How grateful was I to you Yeah you were I sent this guy pictures Later on that night Of the of like Like you don't even understand

Because when somebody prepares food for you, and that's one of the biggest reasons I'm so sad that we have food delivery services. I understand they've made life convenient. Yeah, I understand it. You say this all the time. But I think we take for granted and we haven't yet studied what we lose when you don't hear the food being prepared. You don't see the food being prepared. You also, most importantly, do not see who is preparing your food. food. That is so important. Do you know what I mean? You don't see who is preparing your food. And to your

point, if we live in a world where we are separated from the labor that is providing anything for us, how can we then appreciate said labor? You know? Sure. Yeah. How do we even begin to, and I know some people might be like, oh, that's a, that's a, you know, to reduce it to something. but I think of somebody like Muhammad Sala in Liverpool, right? Muhammad Sala demonstrably changed people's attitudes towards Muslims in and around Liverpool and I'd argue in England.

Right. Just by being himself and doing his thing. But would the effect have been the same if you didn't see him? You just heard about the goals being scored, but you didn't know who scored them. Someone just scored goals for Liverpool. and God assists for Liverpool.

It wouldn't be the same. There's something powerful in seeing the person prepare the food. Who is this person? Oh, who are those people in the kitchen? Who is in my kitchen? That thing is so magical. And I think it creates a gratitude in us

that we've taken for granted. And I've, you know, I haven't now, I'm just moving locations to a bigger site in London. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. It's stressful, but it has an open kitchen. And the thing with open kitchens in London, especially central London, because of the cost of rent, all kitchens are in the basement. You don't see the space.

You don't see the people. You don't see the people. They're where the bathrooms are usually in the basement. Yes. And it doesn't make sense because that's the money space, you know, massive open kitchen. But for me, the honour comes from that. I have two grandmothers. I've got three mothers.

I've got a kitchen of 12 women who are cooking and singing in rhythm. And so we're now moved to a. bigger open kitchen. I've always, you know, I love Kingley Court where I was right now, but I've had to move because, you know, it was just getting too small for us. And I found this amazing sight and it's just off Piccarrily circus. And these things matter because this is my flag in the ground for all those women and all those men who cook hidden behind walls. I have opened it up. Watch us. We are cooking not as a show. We're not trying to impress you, but we want to remind you that someone is laboring for food.

And even just, you know, I do a lot of work with farmers. And I've always felt that, you know, the way chefs look at ingredients is that God-given right. And, you know, anyone who comes to my restaurant will never get okra. I do not want a jet-lacked okra on my table because it was flown from Africa or Asia or in a plane. I do not want. So I only serve, you know, some stuff comes from Europe because of British weather, you have no choice and a lot of it is British

but you know I make alu goopi mutter I make really traditional Indian stuff no fusion stuff but I use ingredients because I think that this whole thing of hospitality

the customers always right no the customer is wrong if they want to eat out of season no do you know that that phrase by the way this is one of my great joys in life he'll tell you about this I love

more than most things in the world digging into the history of... Anthropology of phrases. The customer's always right. Do you know that that's not the phrase? Really? That is not the full phrase.

Okay, I'm going to get a must listen now for him. No, really. So we've grown up. I grew up thinking that, right? I remember, I think... Because we heard of the time. We hear it everywhere. The customer's always right.

That's what they'd say. The customer's always right. And we believe it means that if a person is buying or doing something, then they are right. And they must be catered to 100%. No, the full phrase is not the customer is always right. The phrase is

I'll read it out to you so I get it proper but it's basically the customer is always right in matters of taste but when it comes to I'll read it to you. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. Basically the full phrase means this idiot doesn't know anything. They're right when it comes to like what they want to choose for themselves but it doesn't mean

that they're right. Oh man. No, no, no. I'll read you the full one. I have no idea. I promise you. So how did you dig this up? I just love it. Every time I hear a phrase that doesn't make sense to me because I started so okay the first one was um blood is thicker than water I fought with this my whole life right because I remember like my mom which you would talk about struggles with her family and I would go but mom you you know family is the most important thing blood is thicker

than water you you have to and then I would meet people who struggled with their families people who can cut them off yeah people who had families that were you know running the spectrum everything from abusive all the way through to just dismissive let's say But people realized that they were not of their family, right? And what would society always say to us? Blood is thicker than water. Hey, blood is thicker than water. You go and you make up with your family.

Blood is thicker than water. Don't, your family, you can't choose your family. It's the only family. And they'd always say blood's thicker than water. And then one day I discovered the full phrase, and it is, the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. Yeah. That's the full phrase.

The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. It means the exact opposite. When they say blood is thicker than water, which they shortened and then people misunderstood, what they mean is the blood that you make in a, the blood packed in a bond, yeah. With friendship or with chosen family is more important than the water in the womb. You didn't choose this person. They might not have chosen you. You don't choose the people who surround them.

No. The people that came from it. It's not as important as, So who are the idiots who have used it and then... We are. Mutated it to... No, because they shorten it. They just shorten it, shorten it.

As time goes and gets shorter and shorter. Yeah, I'll read you. So that the... I think it actually came funny enough from Selfridges, if I remember correctly. Yeah, it was like a full, you know, and it just, it morphed over time. Oh yeah, yeah, here it was. So it was, all the person said was, the customer's always right. in matters of taste

and that was it but it was in matters of taste but we left it at the customer he's always right they're not now I'm wondering what cash is came from this is so interesting because

I had I do have difficult people from my own community my you know South Asian especially men someone asked me can you take the

the price of the dal off the menu. And so my manager came as a bit, taking the dal off because he didn't like it. I said, no, but he ate it. I'm going to go and ask, this customer is always right, kind of situation happened.

So I walked up to me and I said, you know, did you not like the dal because you ate it and you want to take it off? He said, it doesn't taste like the dal that my mother made. And I was like, yeah, but your mother's not working in my kitchen. I'm so sorry. So I was like, you know, I always tell.

Yo, asthma, you are busy kicking that Michelin's style. Day by day. Oh, no, no. No, no. That's, I never aspired for a Michelin star. Because Michelin is so, it's, the whole basis is excluding people like me. Because they're looking for a standard which is so French, which is so white,

which is so much about alcohol pairing. It is about, you know, the appearance. If I was given a one-inch food on a 10-inch plate, and this is Michelin standard. And I have something drizzled and rough, and there's a puff and a puff. And if I need to eat so much edible grass and edible flowers, I'd go graze in a field.

I don't want it on my plate. And I don't want to sit for two hours getting one-inch food at a time. After the third one-inch food, I wouldn't even know what I'm eating. I always look at that standard. I'm thinking that was the biggest food colonization scam that has ever been perpetuate. people want to travel for so long for familiarity. They wanted to eat what they know everywhere they went. How crazy is that?

Then that became the standard of what good food is? But again, that one was an interesting one is like when you look at the, I love that you, essentially, if I heard you, the subtext of what you're saying is like, we take for granted how political food is. And not political as in like who did you vote for or not vote for, no. It tells a very complicated story of the people. people that came before it.

You know what I mean? There's no food that does not contain a story. Yes. Who moved? Who was forced to move? How were they forced to move? What did they do to survive? It's all... It's all in the food, right? The same thing goes for those quantities of food. So if you look at old you know, like history, you know, and like

we only have images, obviously there are no photos. But the stories that were told, what was the way you displayed your wealth? through massive amounts of food, right? The richest would eat gluttonous amounts of food. They would have banquets that would go on for days. The pig with an apple in its mouth. Yes, and the way you would show that you were rich

is by eating more food than you needed to eat, getting big, throwing it up, by the way. Come back again. Yeah, they'd go, they'd throw up, they'd come back and eat some more. And so this is happening all throughout like England and France and all of these places, But this is like how the rich live because the peasants can't have as much food. Then what happens? We discover this thing called farming and industrial farming.

And we create this new way of mass producing food, right? What does it do to the price of food? It brings it down. What does it now mean for the poor people? They can also eat more. And then the rich people went, I don't want to be the same as. They also have a full plate and I have a full. We're all the same now?

I don't want that. And so now the true measure of wealth Is how little you eat Was to show how much you could pay for how little you could get And so it became this thing of like Oh, that's the best explanation I've heard of it It literally became that And so it became a

It's like poor people have a plate full of food And so the way you would show how classy you are Was that you had so little It was just a tiny little amount And oh I'll graze and I'll nibble And that that's Dainty and delicate became the new signifier of class and power and wealth.

And poor people had lots of food and like, you know what I mean? And it's actually crazy how that thing goes back and forth. It's so fascinating what you've just said. Because it deeply concerns me. And also in India, you know, for us, food, there's rice, there's roti, there's thing. Now all Indian fine dining, the ones that are official and star, they serve food that I don't recognize. Yeah. And the fact that it's gone into this one-inch stuff with no rice, no bread, no nothing.

It's unrecognizable. And they've put caviar and they've put, you know, truffle oil, which is like the worst thing in the universe in any case. Thank you. Thank you. Someone said it. Oh, no, no. Absolutely overrated beyond belief.

And I think French food is also overrated. Just that... Damn, asthma, shots fired. Ha, ha, ha, bah, bah. No, because, you know, so much butter and cream. You know, wow, you know, I put so my butter and cream in my shoe. It might taste nice. But it is, it just is, you know, I'm no offense, man, you know.

It's a great cuisine. I'm sure that, you know, this brigade system, all of that. They have a great history. And I'm not insulting any French cuisine. Please, can I have that caveat? Like, yeah, I love French men and I love French cuisine. Sorry if I said that, but it's true. It's true.

It's true. The French men are something to do with the men. No, no. There's nothing to do with the men. And then Asma was like, I'm sorry about the... I love French men and I love the food as well. How?

Who would say nothing about the men? And Asma just threw that in out of knowing. No, no, no. I'm... You know, this is that you... Cover yourself in every... Okay, okay. So this is you now. So this is me building defense.

Okay, got it, got it, got it. You're building up the case, you know? For possible deniability. So in case, I get into trouble. Let me try everything. You know, one... Oh, I have to say I like food. French women as well.

These are all the closes. Okay, these are closes. I see. But I mean, yes. I think it's over. I think the problem is the fact that very few people say this. And, you know, I want to say this that there's a lot of racism when it comes to what is elevated cuisine. Oh, of course.

And the fact that French, Italian, even, and when it comes to Asian, now you have, you know, Korean and Japanese food is seen as elevated. But so much of our cuisine, you know, and especially. even you look at Africa and you look at large swathes of South Asia as well, you know, Middle East, it's seen as cheap and cheerful. Yeah. Our food is all about wholesome, cheerful food. This fact that we are not seen as sophisticated, I remember someone telling me,

Asma, no one's going to pay 139 pounds to come for your biryani. We sold out within minutes. And I said, no. This is my price tag. I want to end this monopoly of, This tattooed, you know, aggressive, testosterone-driven madman who's in a stainless steel empire, beating up people. A lot to beat up. Yes.

Shouting and screaming. In this tormented soul has produced this dish. I'll get indigestion, please. I don't want to eat it. And I just feel that, you know, why is it that we are, you know, we are food heritage in Africa, in everywhere, goes back. you know, centuries. We grew food. You know, this is the cradle of civilization. We actually, you know, so much of what we eat today is because of what happened in our lands, nourished in our lands, our soil. Please don't dismiss us. Do not walk over the souls of our

ancestors and see that our food is not sophisticated. Today the world eats because of us, because of our farmers. And in the dust that flies are the rooh or the soul of these amazing, men and women who grew crops. No one is telling their story. And this is what bothers me that, you know, we are not seen. Our food is not seen as sophisticated. Immigrant food in too many places is seen as, you know, ethnic food. We are bracketed in, yeah, and, you know, be cheap, be spicy, you know.

And so in England, you have people who say, oh, you know, this is a hangover, you know, cure. You go for a bin Dalu. People go to these, you know, what they call. call curry houses and have beer and are aggressive and just drink a lot and eat a lot. Please stop because. The desecration. Yes, it is. It is.

And the problem is no one is saying it. And if it means that someone does not want to come to my restaurant because they find my politics uncomfortable. Let them not come. Exactly. The king came to my restaurant. Okay, he was amazing. He was amazing. And I think that if the king of England can come to a restaurant, come into your kitchen,

and packed biryani for, you know, refugee families that were sitting outside. He was packing biryani for himself, but also for the refugee families. This is the great equalizer from one pot. Food is very powerful. We should be unafraid. But the problem is that in this desire to succeed, you will not find chefs talking about these things, not talking about power and equality. And you have this fringe of these people who I'm also uncomfortable with.

talking about, you know, environment and sustainability at a huge price tag. So this particular dish, the moisture in that was the rainforest from whatever. It dropped bumm leaf and this milk came and the moon was full and the cow was happy and they sang a song and they massaged the cow and then did yoga. The car is cholesterol. Yeah, yeah. So this also drives me mad because again you are twisting food into some kind of, you know, you're separating it out. Well, essentially what's happening, you're right, is, you know, I always fall back on the phrase. It was a beautiful one that I read once.

I think it was actually a British author. She said, I can't wait for the world to get over race so that we can realize we're all dealing with class. And fundamentally, that's all this is, right? It is a way for people to define how much their class is superior to somebody else's. And it doesn't matter how they do it. So to your point with quote unquote ethnic food, why is it ethnic? So then where is the center then? Where is the normal if that's the ethnic?

The second thing is like the food itself, I find it interesting even when you're talking about it, that people make it seem like those foods are not a default at all. They are the things you eat when you're going off the beaten path. Yeah. Yeah. Adventurous. Yeah, adventurous. Yeah, adventurous.

Yes. Oh, yeah, no, no, no. Off the beaten track. Oh, I couldn't. Then it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Adventurous is eating food that has no spice. That's adventurous. When I see people that eat food with no flavor, I'm like, wow, you're truly, you're adventurous.

How do you eat fluid? It has no flavor, bro. The food that we, like, I think people take for granted how some of these things are used to define even what we're supposed to aspire to. Right? So to your point, you know how many kids. I mean, adults now, but how many people would talk about when they were kids, Korean, Indian, you name it. They had distinct cuisines and they were embarrassed their whole lives as kids.

Embarrassed. My best friend in school when I was growing up, Dysen Pili, hated the fact that his mom gave him curry every single day to take in a sandwich. We became friends mostly because of this. We swapped our curry. Like, I gave him the money that my mom would give me for food. He'd give me his curry sandwiches. every day when I would eat it, I was like, bro, I don't understand how

you don't think this is the greatest food ever. But most of it boiled down to the fact that he felt like it was like less than. Yeah. Because the other kids were eating burgers and hot dogs and all the things you could buy. Toast the cheese sandwiches. Yeah.

And then he had this curry sandwich that came in this little box. And the smell would obviously... Exactly. When the... Exactly. But it's interesting how all of that becomes a signifier. of your place in society and in the world.

It's like, oh. I think we were able to measure, growing up in the township, we were able to measure time of the day. We were able to measure what day of the week it was based on what food there was. Yeah, definitely. Sunday had its own smell and flavor.

Yeah. After work five, six. Pumpkin Sunday. Right? Yeah. After work five, six, you'd be hard pressed to find any house in the township in this cupboard that didn't have a box

of curry curry powder Yes So there was this famous brand called Raja There was just curry powder

So the staples in every township home onion tomatoes You know this cabbage On a good day

spinach But potatoes is a mast Yeah potatoes is a staple But the elevator was always Just a pinch

of that curry powder That box would last The whole month But it just elevated the whole dish And you'd know When your mom is

home When you were playing in the streets when you could just smell. You'd smell it everywhere. You'd smell in the whole neighborhood. Right? There was a fragrance that it, I love that you say that it was, it was, it was a, it was a, it was almost like a sirens call.

Oh yeah. To come home. Home existed. Was it dinner bell. Yeah. Actually, this is something I've always wanted to know. I'm confused by this. So when I was in India, I would say curry and then people were like, what are you talking about?

Yeah. No, really. So they go like, what do you love? And I'd be like, oh, I love curry. And they'd be like, what, what do you, what do you, what do you, what are you, what are you talking? talking about. And then like once I said like, even when I was there, I was like, none. And then the guy said, which none?

And then I was like, none of that. None, none. And he's like, and then the one guy said to me that like none is bread. Yes. And I was like, yes, I want some non bread. And then you're saying. And then he was so cute the way he said it to me. He's like, he says, Trevor, he says, do you understand right now?

You're saying bread, bread. Yes. Then I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you basically came to me and you said, I want bread bread bread. And I was like, I don't understand I love the Indian accent in there coming through because he said it's so like Yeah, as a matter of fact

Yeah Yeah So okay, help us understand All of us who want to be initiated into this world Help us understand so what is curry It's not a it's not I didn't ever heard of the word till I came to England First time someone told me

Do you do you know how to make curry I was like I don't know I don't I don't I've never heard of it It's an English word That the British used that they morphed probably from curry, which is a kind of, you know, South Indian kind of sauce, spicy sauce.

We don't know. Every dish has a name. Curry is not a name of anything. I never heard of it. And first time I heard of it was in 1992. I've heard the word curry. I never heard of it before. And it's really interesting because it's almost like

they need to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator by calling it one thing. And the fact that they actually think there is... It moves its complexity as well. Yes. Also, the fact that they think a country, the size of India,

has something called Indian cuisine. Let an Indian try and say there's a European cuisine or that I'm in America, there's an American cuisine, you know, putting the North and South America together. Yeah. We are not that. But the problem is they take away from us our layering, our identity, our accent, the fabric that we wear, the thing that makes us different. By literally making our, by painting us all in one corner in the same shade, it's easier for them to deal with us.

curry is a problematic word and you know I recently did a show where it was secrets of the curry kitchen and I was like I don't want the word curry but they were saying that people will not understand that it's about Indian food and eventually I gave in I said fine

I'd rather people understood and the first thing I said the moment the camera comes on I'm going to say there is no word like curry they said say it so literally every episode I said there is nothing called curry but I'm going to show you how to make korma I'm going to show you how to make chalferi I'm going to show you how to make things

Hey, so the thing that we are calling, so when we say like, when people are like, I love butter chicken curry and I love Vindaloo curry and that's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Okay. It's like, you know, I like spaghetti pasta and I love. It's a generic word that is added all. It has no meaning at all. There is no dish that doesn't have a name. And there are things that, you know, like in, you know, random things like, you know, you will say, you know, zira alu.

Zira is cumin. alo's potato. So sometimes you might call something by the combination of things that are in there. Okay, okay. And if you don't have a name because it's such an ordinary everyday dish. Yes. But no, we have names for everything. So it's like saying rice and beans in that way.

You could say rice and beans because that's what it is. Yeah, two things that are simple. Yeah. So we do have a lot of that as well. We have simple words like, you know, that we combine because they talk about the two main ingredients. But I think that this is, again, do with the fact that they have not, you know, I say this to a lot of people. I say, I will not let you eat my food unless you sit down and understand who I am. My music, my poetry, the rhythm.

You cannot take away, you know, my fabric, my culture, my music, my architecture, my everything. And then dismiss me. I won't let you have my food then. Because you cannot appropriate my culture, by dumbing down my food and taking the easiest thing for you is to accept my food, you cannot have my food unless you have me. You need to understand. The problem is that so many cultures, I mean in England and in a lot of other countries as well, this is what they find easiest to take. But are they interested in hearing about your tribe? Are they interested in hearing about your faith or our poets

or the books that excite us what is it that we wear in certain festivals what keeps us up at night no they take our food because it's so easy and they walk away there is no respect and where there is no respect on the table

I will not serve I will not because I feel like sometimes in our quest to be accepted we become party to our own exclusion You know? Yes, and I think that it's hard because when you're bread and butter

and 41 families that I work with my team are dependent on our success, I have to be careful, but I take it to the very edge of where I can be. And I know everything I'm saying now, people will listen, you're hugely popular,

and I'm very grateful to be here speaking with you all because it allows me to reach out an audience in my Muslim name and my accented voice the fact that I tell the story of women and our food people should come

and watch an open kitchen there's no anger no one is screaming and shouting it's not the thing that we see in TV all the time and it's like screaming and the problem is that television is worshipping and all these crazy manic men who are not being able

to deal with the pressure in the kitchen I can send them to an ashram in India in the Himalayas. If you can't deal with pressure, go away. Do not traumatize young people because we are losing. Yeah, you're not wrong. We're losing so many people, young men and women, who leave hospitality because some crazy person cannot deal with the pressure.

Do you ever hear of a CEO of a company going out slapping their secretary or someone else on the board? No. And who are these chefs, powerful people picking on? their playground police tell them to go slap the owner or the head sommelier or the investors

or the landlord no no who do they burn with hot spoons who do they bite I've seen bite marks on women who've been bitten by

and the way that they slapped you know and our skin is dark you really need to hit hard for us to show bruise how are they being allowed in no other profession and I'm saying this not because I'm just

I'm a lawyer, but in no other profession and no other space, with this level of assault, physical, sexual be allowed, as allowed in the kitchen. If it was outside the kitchen, they would be in jail. In full display. But we are allowing this because we allow the excuse that this is pressure. It's even glorified. It is glorified. This is seen like there are these tormented people.

And I feel that it's almost as if the men who cook today do not want to be reminded of the women who cook for them. Because like in England, I'm not know what it's like in Saham, but like school meals were served by older women. Yeah, lunch ladies. Yeah, lunch ladies. Exactly.

Your memories are your grandmother, your mother, lunch ladies. Yeah. Now that you're an artist, you will become this macho, kind of crazy man who will be so, you know, radiate testosterone

because you've made cooking into a combat sport. Yeah. So that it is so far away, from the spiritual rhythm of the spices as they're crushed in our homeland. I even think the instrument

that is used to to symbolize cooking, the knife. So combative, you're right. I think it's a man that's like not the spoon

or the ladle. Yeah. Come to my kitchen, you'll see that the only knife we have is a very small tomato knife because every household had one sharp knife. And in my kitchen, we have one sharp knife, and it moves between people.

We all had one sharp knife. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. There's one sharp knife in everyone's house in the township. Yeah. And in my kitchen, I have one sharp knife. I don't have fancy knives.

I got very excited. I went and bought some Japanese knives. We had to take women to A&A after that because they'd cut their fingers. They're not used to, like, we don't know because we're used to bloody working with blood knives. But the whole thing is that, Why has it become so competitive? Why has it become about aggression and show and that you are taking this ingredient

and you are imposing yourself on it? Can I tell you why I think? I think it goes back to something that you said literally at the beginning of this conversation. It is because if you make it seem like it is combative and if you make it feel like it is pained and if you make it just like look like the most gritty and difficult task, then people are more likely to appreciate it.

Whereas the women who, as you said, when we first started, they make it look effortless. They make it seem as if it didn't take their time, as if the planning wasn't meticulous. They make it feel as if it was a foregone conclusion. You're less likely to appreciate it. And so, funny enough, even if I'm just guessing in a way, when Asma Kano, any other woman, our grandmothers, whoever they were, when they would cook,

and it would just be, when I think of like my grand and how much food she would cook every single Sunday for everyone in the family, we all had that story. There's not one time where I can remember her like barking like Gordon Ramsey, like screaming at people. Get me my bloody! Where's my spinach you little shit? But the amount of food that was cooked for people and the, and the, and the, and the, the quality and the consistency of that food.

Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, we're not talking about burnt bottoms. We're not talking about undercooked anything, but I'm using only four plates. Yo, the quad and the stove itself. There was nothing fancy. There was no, you know what I mean, a coal stove. But if you think about it, beyond like her family and beyond that world, the appreciation isn't known.

Everyone's like, everyone will go like, oh yeah, I'm grandmother. I have her, but grandmothers know how to cook. Do you get what I'm saying? But when you punch walls and slag. and slap people and scream and come and wipe a plate with your serviet, you know what I mean, and turn the plate. You know they love doing that thing. You turn the plate.

Turn the plate. Then it makes it feel like, I mean, this effort. The effort. Have you eaten there? Have you? Oh, we're lucky that we got in. It's so hard to prepare that one carrot in the middle of the plate. Even the word's astronomy.

I mean, I actually think that's a lot of what it is. This is so true what you're saying. And then the added insult is that often I hear chefs being interviewed and they say who's the best chef? And they say my mum or my grandmom. All of them. Show me a mom and grandmom who's in your kitchen. They are not there.

There's also ageism. And if you told me now to go chase a deer in a forest, deer will have gone to another continent by the time I even go near it. But you ask me to cook. with very few ingredients. And this is the simplicity of our thing. I will cook you a meal you will never forget. But the problem is that the world will judge me,

will look at my body shape, will look at my age, will look at my gray hair, and decide she's not creative. She's not dynamic. She's not this muscular, tattooed, pierced, monster who's screaming. When was that ever something that was required to make a beautiful meal? Our grandmother, my grandmother's slight and small and, you know, you come into my kitchen, you'll see, you know, we've got women who are not even five feet.

They're small, they're bright, they're full of spark. They love to cook. And they love to cook. And there's a joy in this smile. But I feel so sad because we have, and also, I must blame the media as well. Oh, definitely. The media, television, you know, all kinds of media. worship this kind of irrational, erratic, unkind behavior.

Unkind behavior. And the thing is that what bothers me is the physical, sexual abuse that's happening. And we are allowing this to happen. It's shameful because I am ashamed of hospitality. I'm ashamed of our industry that we have not stood up for our women. It's not just women. It is men too. It is the empathetic men, men who are of different sexuality.

The way that young, because often in England, you'll find young kids who are struggling in school, be sent off to vocational training. They often learn cooking because it doesn't require you to read and write too much. They come in at 16. Then they're called the most aggressive things. They're reminded about all the struggles that they had. How are you powerful when you cannot embrace the week, when you cannot actually show them hope, For me, a leader is someone who tells someone who's gone in, afraid and broken, who has been bullied in school and comes in, boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. You take them into this world, your secret world of cooking, and you show them how spice works and use the food to speak to them about hope and love.

Our industry is all about, you know, pushing each other down and, you know, this kind of very fake. service, where service and hospitality is all about, you know, impressing people, making them feel good. But when there are tears behind the wall in your kitchen, who are you actually looking after? We don't look after your own. So then if the guest leaves and thinks that this is great, give you a five-star review, Michelin gives you a star,

Michelin might give you three stars. What is that star worth when you have broken the soul of someone in your kitchen and we are allowing this every day and we have not being able to protect our own. I often think, you know, to the point you're making about the media, I often think it's quite an indictment that, you know, and I'll use Hollywood as a shortcut for it because it's just one of the media spaces that has informed how we live,

that Hollywood has been really lazy at finding ways, to glamorize things that seem as if they contain no glamour. And what I mean is this is like, if you think about how many industries Hollywood has taught us about and how they've shaped how people see them, you can't help but think

that it now becomes a case of like the tail wagging the dog. I'm yet to meet a policeman who didn't see police in a movie, on TV and think that that's what policing is. You know, simple example, we all at some point in our lives watched a TV show where there were police where the one cop wanted the law to be done so badly that they slammed someone's head on a table or they smashed them against the wall. And the story tells us that they are the good person.

Because they're willing to break the law to save the law. And he's just like, wait, no. But if you, what are you doing? But the way it's portrayed to us, like, that's. the way you do it. At some point it's like, you know, turn off the cameras. I'll get this guy to talk. And we at home like, yeah, turn off the cameras. Screw their civil liberties. Get them to talk. You know, and then they do the same thing with like the military. They go like, this is how you do it. You go to that country and those people are savages and you shoot them all. And we're like,

yeah, shoot them all. We do this with everything. There's no just war. The same thing that we do with the cooking or with the chefs is like, it's these stories of like, the only way you can make this food is if you're pained, if you're struggling, even artists, it's interesting how we forget that the image that we give out, that inspires people to become this thing, becomes how they define who they're going to be in it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So when I was approached by chef's table, I was so shocked because till then I was like, you know,

oh, these are like the world's best chefs and they're like, you know, serious artists, you know, with gold leaf and caviar. Yeah. And then when I realized that this is not a hoax, first I thought it was a hoax. And then I thought it's real. I told them, don't script me. Please don't script me.

Oh, wow. This is, that's, I'm not scripted at all. I told the story of my people. I spoke about my mother crying when I was born. As a second daughter, the lamenting on my birth. I spoke about inequality and justice. And I was so happy they just sat there, let me say it.

I didn't need to tell them that, you know, my food is this exquisite, and I do this, and I'm so tormented, and I have all these things. I didn't need to. I cook biryani, and I open the biryani, and I fed people, and that's what it is. But I think that the problem is that, you know, when media is looking for those kind of, it's like, you know, self-fulfing prophecy. Yes. You're this, you're that, yeah. And there are so many of us, you know, I'm not just the only one. There are many people who have really interesting stories who understand justice.

But where are there? No one is telling their story. They don't get the opportunity to talk about what makes them special and their food special. And then you have, we are flooded by all these crazy wacko men who are going on beating people and we all think they're great because they're abusive. And it really worries me because the problem is, and I don't want to be hypocribal. I'll tell you one thing. I don't have a daughter. If my daughter wanted to work in a commercial kitchen,

I wouldn't let her go. Wow. Because of what you know. Yeah. I would be awake and I would check her all the time to see, has she got injuries? Is she being bruised? Is she being bullied?

It's funny you say that throughout our conversation, I was looking at your arms and you have no scars, you have no burn marks. Because I know this female chef who had like scars and burn marks all over her hands all the way up to her elbow. And she said, that's the only way you get respect. in these commercial kitchens is if you have these marks and these cuts on your finger, it means you've done the time and you've put in the time and you've done the work.

And our grandmothers didn't have that. You don't have that. Yeah. I mean, if one of our grandmothers burned themselves, all the other aunties would say, how could you do it? You'd be looked down upon getting burned, you know? That's a sign of incompetence. You are so right.

And the whole point is that you, the whole culture in a kitchen is so violent. It is so horrible. And I actually took on Michelin. There was proved allegation. It has to be proved allegation. Again, I'm a lawyer backing myself. Yeah, the lawyer. Backing myself up.

It proved allegation where abuse happened in a kitchen which has a Michelin Star. I asked Michelin, take the star off. They didn't apply to me for a long time. I kept asking them. Then they got back to me with some kind of, you know, answer saying, oh, that's not what we do. But you do.

You recognize and you give a, kind of accolade to that kitchen and that chef. But they have been brutal. They have been proved to have abused someone in the kitchen. Why can you not take off the star? But they will not. And the problem is that when the entire industry, you know, is based on this, that, no, we will not speak up.

We will keep silent because I've never wanted to be, I am on the fringe of this all-male Mayfair club. mostly white people who are in this exclusive club like you have them in Britain where women come in I mean now of course the law has changed because the law says

women are members as well but in hospitality women are just guests who you sign in you know the clubs that we have you sign a woman and you bring her in someone has to vouch for you someone has to vouch for you

and if you now look at all the successful women I've always said this whenever they've been proved allegations of abuse in a kitchen, not a single Michelin Star female chef has spoken up. If you Google and you will see, it's just me. The vouch stops there. It's just me. I've write full page articles about allegations,

including some very prominent male chefs who said, you know, we don't want to hire women because when they get pregnant, they cannot pick up pots. I was like, wow. To say this, and every female chef who is seen as a leader of this industry, who has a Michelin star, The silence is deafening. Why are you silent?

And this is our problem. And I have said it repeatedly. And not even once has any of these women approached me privately saying that, you know, I also agree with you. But because, you know, these are my friends. I know what I say they haven't in approached me personally. That's how broken we are. That women see themselves as chefs first and women. Fine.

You can see yourself as, you know. queen of, you know, whatever. You can be who you, you can imagine yourself to be whatever you want. But I also see you as a female. I see you as a female leader. There's a woman in your team who might be getting bullied.

Your silence tells her, keep quiet. Because to progress, you stay silent. You follow, conform to the system. Become an accomplice. I could not breathe. I could not live. If I had to stay silent

and allow abuse in front of me for my success. my success would hurt me more than anything else. And I don't understand. I guess it's a personality thing, but I do not understand how they are still silent. Nobody else is speaking up. I am one of the only females who's speaking up in the industry.

And very, you know, not so long ago, a male chef was asked this in a press conference publicly that, you know, what do you think of someone like Asma who says, you know, that male chel. He said, tell her to come into a real kitchen and work with men. Tell her to come. He said this? When I challenged him, he said it was his, as English is not his first language.

I was like English. French men. I was saying English is also not my first language. But I would not say something like that. It's not about English. Wow. But the fact that. Yes.

Eugene, I challenge you to. come work in a real kitchen. What's that Trevor? And me, no, no. E.C. You see. No, Eugene. It's a language. I don't speak.

My first language is a coward. That's true. So it's a, but despite how tough it is, I am so optimistic. Maybe she's not born yet, but the legacy I'm leaving. and that girl that's not born yet, she will know my name. I will be dead and I will be dust.

She will know there was someone like me who created a space that was free for women. And I want her to know. I want her to know my name. I want her to know that I walk in thorns and I go through fire because one day she will be free and she will be without fear. and that is what excites me

that I will be able to push back and clear the pathway and through just the water that I see myself that I leave everything moistened and fresh and the harvest will grow and there will be women and men who will be free of fear I believe this will happen

I may not see it. You will see it. But I feel that there will be a day when there is no fear in the kitchen. And this is what drives me. And I feel everything in my life has led me to this place where I fight for those who I will never see. And I speak for those who I don't know. But what a privilege it is and what an honor to be able to do this. this excites me more than everything else

because I all my friends who were in law school with me who were really bad are super rich now have fancy cars live in St. John's Wood and all of this and I think I'm going to be pro my whole life and I think I will be

but I know that legacy is more important than everything else if you are a CEO or a CFO of our company your name was on a door with the title but when you die all your things are put in a box and given away after a respectable gap someone else's name is put them

what is your legacy but I know one thing that when I die I will live on forever because I did something for women in industry in kitchens that no one else has done so far

and I ask my father that when I die do not bury me inside the fortress and the palace, bury me on the street so that everyone can walk past. And I want them to ask who is she. I want the world to know this story because I want them to know that you could succeed. You could be kind, you could be graceful, you could be, you know, caring about the community.

And I'm very successful. I want people to know you can be successful without being scared. No, that's why you're here. And that's, I mean, when I told you. the team when I was like we really got to get asthma on they were like some people like who is asthma some people like oh from chef's table i was like no no no forget all the things you know you just you just have to meet this person and so i'm glad i'm glad you came and joined us today this was amazing thank you thank you so much thank you very much now i mean we have to we have to go and eat the food now yes

i don't think i've ever been this hungry you have to come and women cooking magical you've got to come no i mean that we know that you can't even like yeah but just like Now, um lambi, les. Lambé, daughter. My stove, apparently. Eugene, download the app, Eugene. Download that app, Eugene. Let's get going. Asma Khan, thank you so much.

You're very good. Thank you so much. This was lovely. Thank you very much. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaziamen, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth.

Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?