What Now? with Trevor Noah - Brené Brown: The Rage Bucket Theory

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Trevor and Eugene sit down with professor, author, and The Curiosity Shop co-host Brené Brown for a conversation about connection in an age of constant connectivity. From parasocial relationships and modern media to friendship, community, and the universal desire to feel like we belong, Brené brings her trademark mix of insight, honesty, and humor.   Together, the three explore why genuine human connection can feel harder to find than ever — and why it remains one of the most important things we have. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I'm a sports girl. Oh, you are? Oh. Which sports? Volleyball. I mean, I... Quash. Pickleball.

Whoa, whoa. Batminton. I play pickleball six days a week. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Hey, I could smell it in you. Let's go. Or something hippie-ish.

It's not like you've got a good nose. I'm a white lady that's in, like, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this is not hard. I didn't say, tired matcha. What are you going to say? Next, I bet you bake sourdough. Wait, you play Picklebo six days a week? I do.

I have found my kind. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. One word greeting that would not give me away. Try what's up. No, Bray. Okay. The point here is... The point is...

The point... It would probably work. Hey, I would try to go with a hay. Hey. I fought the water and the water. Yeah. I fought that one hard. First time I came, I would go, can I have some water?

And I'll get looked at for a long time. Stared at. Then I would be like, hey, may I please have some water? And then I'd get water. Your water is sounding good. Yeah, you see, I fought that for long. So now I'm extending. But it's interesting that you learn to say it from a woman.

Some water? Yeah, the way you're saying it. Because you go girl. You go girl. Again, Rebecca. Yes. Nothing. No, but I'm serious.

You go girl. Go girl. You go girl. Really? Yeah. You're like, hey, can I get some water? Yeah, you're like, hey, can I get some water? Yeah. Wait, you go girl.

You go girl hard. Hey, can I have some water? Now it's not really American. What is it now? No, it was a mix. It was like a hybrid. Your American girl sounds like American girl. Wait, wait.

Let me back up a little bit more. Let me go all the way back to, this is what happens. Like, when I'm working with leaders and everyone gets into this conversation, then I'm like, wait a minute. What problem are we? trying to solve. That's my favorite question. Yeah. I think Eugene, the correct question for Eugene is, what problem are we trying

to create? You're not wrong. That's what I mean. I refuse to answer that question. That's what we were talking about before you came. I was saying, I was saying, I wish I get to testify one day in front of the Senate. First of all, there's no ramifications. So that's like, it's a loose thing. Even though people act like it's a big deal.

Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. At a Senate hearing. The Senate hearing and the Congress hearing. No, no, no. Two different things. Yeah, yeah. But what I'm saying is like if you have to go testify. Okay.

You know what I mean? Where it's like a congressional, they're bringing you in. Yes, yes. They always make it seem like there's consequences. They are none, which is great. What do you mean? This is basically just B-roll. Yeah, but they also don't.

They don't like punish you. Wait, wait. Nothing ever happens when people testify like that. Big companies come in, industries come. It's like slap on the risk. Nothing really happens. Oh, public flogging. Yeah, yeah.

That's it. It's public flogging. Yeah. But what I do enjoy is the, just the, no, Senator. Oh, yeah. That is, that is correct. Well, I don't, I don't have the numbers on hand, but I don't think it is that high. To the best of my ability.

Yes. Oh, I love that one. I'm sorry, I don't remember. Yes. Yeah. I love it. Whenever they go testify in front of Congress, they don't know anything about their company. The person is the best one to deny anything.

It is. It really is. I'm sorry. It was built for it. Phonetically, we used to. spend a lot of time on that. Right. Yeah.

What do you mean? Like, it was part of the, yeah, it was part of our thing. And yeah, we worked on it really hard to have the denial with a denial. I feel like you're tricking us. Because you're an expert. Now I have to believe, I'm like, I don't know if this is a real thing or not. No. Actually, how often do people, no, how often do people think that you're saying something completely

genuine when you're not? Because you're Brunei Brown. It depends if whether they, if you're related to me, you know, you know, know I'm bullshitting you. Okay, okay, okay, okay. In general, like, I do, you don't ever know, but I think, yeah, I should probably be, um, well, unfortunately, the same thing that makes you undatable makes me dangerous. I just say the thing that comes into your head.

Yeah. So I'm trying to, I, oh, damn. I, I don't, I shouldn't talk about this. I'm going to talk about it anyway. Okay. Yeah. That's like your whole. Is that a denial?

No, no. I did this interview in January with the financial times. Yeah. Uptight. Yeah. FT. Financial Times. Yeah. And I, 20 minutes before I went downstairs and it was in the like a room in the hotel,

everything was unfolding with ice in Minneapolis. And I was loaded for bare. I mean, I was coming out of my mind. So when I sat down, whatever the opposite of media training is, is what happened. Really? Oh, yeah, I just went. And that's the whole thing that, and I kept, even on the elevator down, I was like, think before you speak. Don't think, then say it.

Think, and then pause and then say it. Think before you speak. And then just really pause. But it didn't work like that. And then what I'll go down in a history for is, potentially the best correction in financial times history, which said, researcher Dr. Brune Brown did not say she's in her fucking era. She said she was in her fuck it era.

That is a correction they had to print. Yeah, in the Financial Times. And then, you know, one of the things that is one of the greatest corrections. That's what's going in my gravestone. No, and you know that noise, you know that. No way, you know that sound effect? You do the sound effect really well. You might be my favorite at this.

You go, like, make the noise when the text come on. Wendy? When you turn on your phone and there's like seven, like your post-grammy turn your phone on. Oh, you mean like when the little like the bling-bling-bling-bling-bling. Yeah, but when there's like 30 of them. Oh, when it's it like, boom-bring-blis-l-l-d-l-l-l- Yeah. And you turn your phone on and you're like, oh no. That's it.

Did you do that well? You know why he knows how to do that well? His life? He doesn't answer text. Wow, Eugene. What are you talking about? A text doesn't stop buzzing when you answer it or don't answer it. I feel like you just use this as a moment to air out a feeling you have about me.

You can't answer a text. No, that was a deeply appropriately contextualized stray. To confirm, no deny that. Wait, so let's go back to this and then I'm going to handle this. No, the context for your stray was on point. It was excellent. Get a lot of me. Right here.

So I don't even know this thing is running, and then it's... Sure. And when I saw the article, I was really upset because I thought we had talked about a lot of great things. And basically they took the five sentences where I was the most kind of angry and unhinged. Yeah. And they just then wrote around those five sentences. so it wasn't super coherent, but it made me look like someone,

one of the comments in the thing, which I shouldn't have read because my therapist says, I'm supposed to be off those, but I read it anyway. Someone said, oh, wow, she's like the Beth Dutton, like the wild character from Yellowstone that kills people. Oh, damn.

She's the Beth Dutton of leadership. Damn, the page led? Yeah, when the Financial Times correction came out, one guy on like whatever, what are we calling Twitter these days? I'm not on it anymore. X, yeah. said a financial times correction for the ages.

And there's like 50,000. It is the greatest. Yeah, I did. That is the greatest correction ever because now it makes me want to go read the article because now it makes me... But it's funny. You know the thing you're talking about?

Almost maybe answers a question I've had for a while. I've wondered why public conversation has become so sanitized. Like interviews, everything. You know, I was watching clips from late nights, but like old late night. And I was like, it was so much more honest. Oh, it was like.

Someone would come on and they'd go like, so your movie came out. You know, what do you think? It was like, I'll be honest. It was a piece of trash. Look, it's not a great film, but you know, you make movies and you get up and you do it again. And you're like, wow, I don't know the last time

I saw someone saying that the movie they made was trash. It's completely true. I'm not sure I was drunk the whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like that. Those types of things. And I found myself going, the reason I've been going down this rabbit hole is because I was wondering when society sort of like lost its ability to be honest in certain spaces. But then what you're saying maybe answers the question, because I've experienced this as well, if you're going to go out and talk to media or have any conversation with them and then they're going to warp that because they know that's the thing that gets them the most views and the most clicks, then people now become more. and more and more rigid.

And so when they go to an interview or when they have a conversation, they go, I'm not going to say anything that you can use against me. 100%. That's dating. Yeah, but now what it means is you just end up in a world where

you said nothing. Because you're so scared, and correctly, you're so scared that the person will take the one part of the interview, your fuck it era. They're going to take that and make that the interview

as opposed to putting it in context. And so then people go, you know what, You're not going to see any real parts of me. I will give you the most sanitized version of me. But then ironically, what that's done is it's made people. Like, I think there's a reason TV is dying and like celebrity culture is sort of like waning. And now it's become more about social media because people are looking for real.

And mainstream doesn't like have real anymore in that way. So basically you're saying people conduct themselves in interviews like sports stars do. Yes, yes, yes. They just state the obvious facts. They say nothing. Well, they're very, I mean, so what I think is interesting, this is, there's 40 steps I'm going to take here in one sentence. So I understand that it seems preposterous, but I think it's also what you're describing is also at the root of things like strong man authoritarianism. And I think it, the results of what you're saying are more.

to me, they're deeper than dying media. So, yeah, because in this article, I was unfiltered. And journalists, you know, fair play, journalists don't have the ability to pick their headlines. So the headline for the Financial Times article was, leaders now have permission to be the assholes they really are. That was the headline in the Financial Times. Wow. You know, researcher Brune Brown says. Well, completely taking out of context, I was talking about the protection of authoritarian, the protection that authoritarian leaders are giving specifically tech leaders right now.

Because they are complicit in, you know, money, coercion, you know, a lot of things that are happening. So you really only have two choices, be sanitized and media trained, which is say nothing about, Nothing. Yeah. Or if you are really authentic in yourself, it'll be warped to the point that you are vilified. Yes. So what makes us, I think, so interesting and beautiful as people is that we are a combination of holy and profane. We are a combination of shitty and wonderful.

And when you strip that ability to be both things in the media, it's just the beginning of how we see people. You're human or you're not human. And so I find it to be, I think we had really important conversations about what people are saying about the New World Order, about how leadership is being perceived, and modeled in organizations by, you know, if you're looking at politicians,

I can get away with anything now. And then yet, we just went with the five most outrageous, crazy things and built an article around that. And so the nuance in the context and the fact that I am both, I think I have something worth sharing and I'm pissed off.

Those things can coexist. Right. But I think to your point, you see that one of my face, favorites, you know, quotes and ideas to live by a final. I think it was Charlie Munger who made it famous, but he said, show me the incentive, and I will show you the outcome. Oh, God.

The whole time that you were saying, I was like, we've got misaligned incentives. Yes. That's exactly what Charlie Munger said. He said, show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome. 100%. Because we take for granted, right? We take for granted that a news organization. So let's say if you look at America, you know, around like 50s, 60s, even going into like the 70s,

when the news division of a media company was supposed to be a lost leader, as in it couldn't make a profit. There was just a different style of news telling. There was a different style. It was like, these are the facts. This is what's happening. Let's keep it moving because they didn't have to try and get your eyeballs because they didn't have to try and get advertising and so on and so on and so on. They were reporting the news. Yeah, yeah.

So if your job is to report the news, you will report the news. Whatever news that is. But if your job is to get eyeballs and your job is to get viewers and your job is to increase readership and your job is, well, then news might not align with that all the time. So then you start going, what's newsworthy and what's audience worthy? Clickable. What's clickable. And so having somebody say something crazy and making that the focus, that's the most clickable. that's the most clickable thing that you can create

and it robs, but to your point, it robs us of the nuance of like, of genuinely of like everything I feel. You know, you know where you've seen it? You say the thing about athletes. Honestly,

one of my favorite things about podcasts has been, have you seen how many athletes have podcasts now? Yeah. Where they now like say like the real thing. Oh my God. Express themselves. I love it so much. It's the greatest thing over.

I'm a sports girl. Oh, you are? Oh. Which sports? Volleyball. I mean, I, Pickleball

Batmanton I play pickleball six days a week Yeah let's go Let's go I could smell it in you Let's go Or something hippie-ish

It's not like you've got a good nose I'm a white lady That's in like I'm a white lady over 50 I mean this was not hard What are you going to say next I bet you bake sourdough Wait you play piccabole six days a week

I do I have found my kind Please don't do this You know what's funny about this is You know what's funny Please don't We'll be partners You know what's funny about this Eugene

Would you teach me? I mean He's been trying for long time Don't flirt with me If you want to learn pickleball I'm going to teach you I'm going to find a court I'm going to teach you

Look Back where I come from We say I'm available Can you tell what I'm from I'm available For water You know what I love is you brought up pickleball So Eugene hates how much I love pickleball

Yes And so my deal Are you feeling Wait Surrounded? No Are you feeling left out No

I love that I'm not part of this cult of yours Eugene hates how much I love pickleball So the deal I've made for our friendship Is I don't bring it up But he brought it up That's what I love about this moment Is that he has brought this upon himself

I'm constantly trying to find reinforcements here. And everywhere I go, turn codes everywhere. Everyone plays pick a ball at some point, loves it. And I'm like, this guy, just the fact that he loves that thing. And I've tried immersing myself in it. I've gone to his pickleball matches at night. I've gone during the day. You don't play with us.

No, this is not a spectator sport. I don't even want to touch this thing. It's not a great spectator sport. It's the best participation sport. It's participate. I mean, but you know what? I see you. I think you want to play pickleball.

I think you do. I think... I like the clothes. I think... The shorts are freeing. The shorts, I mean, there's a... It's a great excuse to wear the shorts and not have to explain yourself to anyone.

I need to see what shorts you're talking about first. Oh, what kind of shorts do you wear? Oh, you wear short shorts? Yeah, he does. Are we talking like... Are they short shorts? Larry Bird Celtic shorts? No, no, no, no.

That's his friend. No, no, no. Yeah, my friend who wears... You're lucky, you're right. Lawrence was the shorts. Short shorts. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I don't have the short shorts.

Because the short short guys can be a menace on the court. Like we, wait. Yeah, no, no, I don't have the short shorts. Yeah, but his shorts are short. But five, seven or nine inch shorts. What's your length? Seven. Oh, you're good.

Okay. I see, you like your legs. Yeah, but Eugene is still like, for him, that's still short shorts. Yeah, that's a short short. Yeah. But are you more like an Adam Sandler short guy? Yeah. Yeah.

But not too much over the knee because it kind of squashes me in. But to the knee? But almost, just almost by the knee, just enough. Two fingers. Can I borrow him to go shopping and play pickleball? Any time. I'm going to put you in some nine-inch athletic shorts. Right.

And then we're going to play pickleball. No long socks. I'm with you. I can't do long socks. But can you do ankle socks? Are you a no-show guy? I can do an ankle sock at a push to solidify our relationship because I'm giving you just a little bit just to show you that I trust you.

I'll go secret socks. Any day. Tucked in, no one can see, I'm good. But if you're saying, okay, Eugene, if you're going to go with these socks, I would feel like you're trying to get involved in my world. Because I like submerging myself in people's worlds. If you give me a nine-inch hem on your short, I'll give you no-show socks. Give me a seven and maybe I'll do a crew.

Wow. You saw it here first. I did see it here first. Yeah. That is impressive deal-making. We're playing. Like, I will fly back here to play. That is impressive.

impressive deal making. Sort of. Sort of. You wish it. But wait, wait, wait. But I want to know. Let me just go back to the sports thing. Hey, wait a minute.

Okay, one thing I wanted to say, because I'm like, I just want to finish a, I want to go back to when the news was a loss leader. It was interesting. It was a financial loss leader, but it was an equity builder for trust in the network. Yes. Yes. Say it again. Okay. So news was a loss.

leader financially, but it's, so its only job really was to build equity in the network so that other people, other people didn't have that job, which I think is part of, I don't, I don't want a talk show host being tasked with building equity in trust. You're not wrong. Right. I don't, I don't want that because something has failed. Something has failed and A, I don't believe you to begin with. Like, you're in a bit. You're in a bit right now. Like, you know, and so, but the news, when the news's job was to build equity through public trust, without regard to financial encumberment, I guess, we were better. I think we were better then. And then pickleball, I do play six days a week. And it's been one of the most fun,

because I was a tennis player for 40 years. And I follow a lot of sports. I follow Go Birds. I'm an Eagles fan. I'm a huge Liverpool fan. In fact, I just did... No ways. Eugene has just been thrust into... Oh, Eugene, I'm sorry. This feels like a trap.

And I didn't... Let's hold hands, Eugene. Come on. I swear I didn't do this to you. Walk on. Walk on. This can't be happened. Oh, Eugene, I'm so sorry.

Wait. You love Piggle and you're a Liverpool fan. Yeah. In fact, I was just on a podcast in the UK, and they handed me their phone and they said, hit play. And it was Stephen Gerard saying, hey, Bray. Yeah. Wow. I got goosebumps when you said that.

Yeah, me too. Anfield, baby. Ride or die. I'm dying. It doesn't the option she's picking down. I've never had anyone actually respond to ride or die with ultra death. Don't go anywhere because we got more what. now after this.

So I want to know, like, going back to sort of the way we started this is when people, like, take you seriously, where people, is there a weights? Because I don't know, when, when did you, like, become Brunei Brown? And what I mean by that is you're Brne Brown, but then at some point, you become Brne Brown. You're not just Bray. You're not Ms. Brown. You're Bray Brown. And people, Bray, Bray Brown.

And then you're in an airport. So Bray Brown, can you bring him? My life, Bray Brown. and then a company leader, Bray Brown, Brayne Brown, Bray, Brayne Brown. I'd love to know when that happened and how weird that was for your life. Because it fascinates me

because of the thing we're talking about, right? You know an athlete is somebody who plays the sport that they play. And then we are shocked in society when they do anything human outside of what they do. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Spotted NBA superstar drunk at a party. And you're like, why is that a thing? Why is that a thing? Because we only see them in one space. We only see them in one world. We now make them one idea. You are a fixed, metastasized idea of a human being. And anything beyond that is wrong.

Can be you. And also can be you. No, it can't be. I think the minute that happens, let me think about another word. I wish there was another word for dehumanizing that wasn't dehumanizing. because I want to save dehumanizing for the really big catastrophic trauma. Oh, yeah, I hear what you say. Yeah, but I wish there was a word that was like reductive.

Yeah, it's reductive, it's flattening. It's flattening, yeah. And so I think, oh, yeah, no, I get that. I don't know, whenever I became that thing that you're talking about was really shocking for me. because when you are a public person, this is what my therapist has taught me, and I think it's been helpful.

When you're a public person, you become like a screen on which shit is projected from other, you know, you become the screen, and people project all their shit on you. And so if I say something like, if I say something on social about ice, and then the next thing I know, I'll get a picture of all my books on fire

in someone's backyard. And they'll say, you know, it's, it's, they think they know me to the point that there's any dimension of me. Yes. That's not aligned with who they want me to be or who they think I need to be in order to have been helpful to them. Then they, it's like a solid, it's actually weird. It's actually like betrayal.

They feel betrayed. Yes. So they burn my books in their backyard. And they say, you know, fuck you. I hope you die. I hope your family dies. can't, you know, my daughter, you know, our family went through this thing and you were so helpful and now, you know, you've changed. And I'm like, I don't think I've ever written a book that if you

really read it, not for what you needed, but for who I am, you would never be surprised by anything I said or posted. Ever. You would never, if you, if you had not squeezed the life out of me to pluck from me what you need, you would never be surprised. Like I, I'm, you know, I got arrested in protest for the first time when I was 16. Like this is this is not new for me. Right. And so and I think it's happened both the far right and I think the far left. Oh definitely. Yeah. The far left is you know that one was harder for me because had a lot of identity tied up in that. And so but I I, when I became that thing, I just really had to, I had to go away for a year or two. Really? Oh yeah, for, oh for sure. Oh wow. Yeah. And then I had to think, um,

Do I want to stay away? Because I really love this. More pickleball. Yeah. But then I thought, let's see if I can do it another way and then choose from a place other than fear if I want to go away. Because right now I'm running. I'm not walking towards something I want.

I'm running from something that I'm afraid of. Yeah. So now I'm in that decision-making thing right now. Do you mean? I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. Do you get it? Yeah.

I think we all do. Because with proximity, you get a clear view of if I gave the person what they really wanted, does it actually change their life? So if someone says, I wish you would die and go away, and you do go away, you look back and you go, if I was away, what really changed? But then you go from being away, I don't like being away. Because you've let them choose for you. I have let them choose for me, for sure. I've been in that space where there was something I couldn't confront really, and I would listen to what people were saying, which was. an idea that they had about me, the thing that you spoke about, of once they've made you

the person that they think you are, and you stray a little bit because of what news say or an X says about you, and you start believing it, and then you go, let me be away so there's nothing to talk about. Right. But then you go, I'm still living while being away, right? I'm still living while being away. That's the hardest part. Yeah, I'm here. I'm still here. Yeah, I didn't delete myself. I've deleted myself from your existence, right? But I'm still here. Then you go, okay, then I decided to live loudly and say, and it was on one of the episodes that we first did together where I would say all the things that people were always misconstruing about me and things that were true about me that were deeply hurtful that I went through. Then I felt so liberated because I felt like I was actually saying it from a point of honesty, not from a point of defending myself. Oh, God, yeah.

That's the worst part. That's the worst. I mean, it is. And then because it's like, oh, betray yourself last. Yeah. Like, who, you know. Yeah. Because at some point when you're defending yourself, you're going to lie about yourself.

You have to. At some point you're like, and then that thing happened. Yeah, but I know why that thing happened and you keep going back and back and back in the real roles. Further, further, further until you go, I can't go anymore. But when you're telling the truth, it's quicker, it's better, and it's liberating. It's like that deep sigh that I felt after we did that episode. That episode was long. It was like three hours because we had hung out before and then we did the episode.

And we hung out after them the relief I felt of knowing that I said what I wanted to say, and I didn't care. Because I've experienced the worst from people who say, this is who you are and this is what you did and da-da-da-da-da. And I gave them the thing that they wanted. I went away. But I told the truth, and I said, I'm not going anywhere. Okay. This is so powerful. Can I ask you a question?

So when the people are thinking, when you think about the people, one thing that you said that I have a question. about is who people think I am. Do you think it's who people think you are or do you think it's who people need you to be in order to work out their own shit in order to, you know, feel better about themselves? Is it really, is the struggle really about who people think we are or is it really about who people really need me to be? Because if it's... Absolutely. Yeah. Do you mean? Because if it's about who people think we are. Yeah. I spent a lot of time trying to work to change that.

Oh, no. Like, let me go in the comments and say, oh, actually, that's not true. That, you know, but then I realized, well, this is a fucking losing battle because this is not about who people think I am. This is about who people need me to be. People need me to be this. Yeah. Because if I'm not this, it's confronting to them in a way that's uncomfortable.

Yeah. And I think one of the, that's so powerful. I think one of the most unfair thing that people can ask from other people is not honesty, it's not reliability, is consistency. As a human, I can't guarantee that I'm going to be consistent in anything. In liking you as a partner, in being consistent at my job or loving the job the same way again or walking the same path, I cannot promise that I'm going to be consistent. But what I can promise is I'm going to do it from a place of love.

So whatever it is that I change in my ways, I would make someone go, you're not the same person anymore. Then I'm like, yeah, but I'm not doing it to hurt you. I'm not doing it to hurt myself. I can promise you now that I'm not going to be consistent in this, but I'll try to do it from a place of love. And that's what I've had to do. And I've had this conversation with my daughter.

And I said, there's things that we used to do together, I'm not going to be consistent with. You'll look at it and go, we used to do this and consistently, and now you're not doing it anymore. And I'm like, yeah, whatever change happened and whatever path I chose to be consistent on and venture on,

I'm doing it from a place of it. love. But I realized that I couldn't be this reliable, consistent person to everyone because it was those small little roles that everyone assigned. And when I strayed a little bit and everyone go, what are you doing? So it's really, wow. I find one of the more fascinating aspects of life is that we can all solve a Rubik's Cube using completely different techniques. At the end we always, you know, most people end up in the same place. But you find we all got there in different ways. So somebody figured out like a trick to align the things in one direction. Other people just kept moving the pieces around until they got like all the lines. Someone just

went, I'm going to take the colors off completely. I'm going to peel the stickers off. Yeah. Line them up and then put them back on. So some people, but but the point is we're all trying to get to the same place. What I'm genuinely eternally grateful, even in this conversation we're having his. I had one of the stranger interactions with people online because I never engaged with the comments section, but I would engage with the commenters in the section. Like a DM or something?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've told you this story before, but when I was very early on starting the Daily Show, people were just like, this person shouldn't be here. We hate him already, he's terrible, he can't say, he doesn't say women properly because in South Africa we say like when we're talking about like

we say women that's plural for but what Americans say women but we say we pronounce the O more and people like can't even say the word women properly and it was like this whole thing but it was everything right

and then there was one commenter who was more prominent than others in the mix and I DMed him and I was genuine because I was new to this I went hey why do you hate me so much and I'll never forget

this guy from Canada and his response it was actually beautifully effusive he was like hey Trev hey buddy I don't hate you at all said I'm just

joining in with what everyone's saying and it's fun and we're piling in and he wrote it out I could probably still find it in my DMs he wrote it out and can I tell you I'm eternally grateful to him

because he was honest enough to be aware of what was actually happening because some of might be like, you know why, or they try and like put it back on you. He was like, oh, yeah, you've done nothing wrong. We're a mob. And as a mob, we're coming for you. It's a lot of fun. And this is what the internet does. Welcome to the internet, buddy. And he was like, just for the record, I think you're very funny. I do think you're going to fail on the daily show,

but I think you're very funny and I wish you the best of luck. And I just went, what is what is happening here? And I know this sounds crazy, but just that interaction gave me a third way. to think of it. It went, I went, it is not that the person, people think I'm this way. It is not even that they need me to be this way. I have just happened to step into the spot where somebody was about to drop a bucket of water. You happen. Does that make sense? Yeah, you happened into the spot. Yeah, the right spot. So the way I started thinking of it is I went everywhere, all the time in our lives as people. We have buckets that we're filling with water. And that, that water is, whatever emotions they may be.

We've got a bucket of love. We've got a bucket of anger. We've got a bucket of hate. We've got a bucket of disdain. Whatever these things are. We've got these buckets. You're the water balloons. I like that.

You are a water balloon kind of guy. Accuracy. So we're filling them up. We're filling them up. We're filling them up. Or they're being filled up. They're being filled up. And if you're not aware of it, you know, they get full.

They get full. And then at some point you tip it out. Whoever's there when the tipping happens. gets all of it. They just get all of it. And this person made me realize sometimes we make it seem like the bucket is being tipped on us.

It's just being tipped and we're there. It's just being tipped and you are perfectly positioned for the tipping to happen. And so I find sometimes it happens in life. A parent will fill up their bucket with, you know. Oh, for sure. You know, it's like all the things that frustrate them

and work and this and then the kid will be there at the moment that they're tipping the bucket. charge. You little shit, all the shit, I jack, your shit. And then the kids like, oh, man. Wow. I'm drenched and hate.

I don't think I deserve this much water for what I did. Right. And now you're the tipper and you're going, ah, I mean, the same thing happens on the internet, though, is when you open the app on a day and your bucket is filled in a certain way, you will find the thing to tip into because it's there already. Yeah. So if you're in a good mood, you'll be shocked at how quickly you're sorry. scroll past the bad stories. And when you're in like a rage, you know, and you open that app and you're going to find, and then you go like, you know what, take this bucket.

Here you go. How dare you study law, Kim Kardashian? Who the hell do you think you are? Why did that make you angry? Yeah. Genuinely, what are you angry about? Yeah. What offended you so much?

She thinks she can go and be a lawyer. But why are you angry? Yeah. What are you actually angry about? especially when it's like a complete random person on the other side of the globe and so what it taught me was and maybe there's like a component of spiritualism about it was genuinely I'll go like oh it's it's not about you but like in a really wonderful way yeah it's like it's not it's not about you it's really not yeah it's not about you

but maybe maybe that's the thing outrage offers us a chance to be mean without taking responsibility definitely like yeah why but why not Explain. No, you can see it yourself. By the way, I also think we need it though. Being outraged. Yes. I think in society, this is why I love sports.

And this is why I think sports is one of the most important things society has. It's the reason I believe people should go to stadiums. That's why I think tickets should stay cheap. They should be affordable. So people can go. I believe that there should be multitudes of sports. You know why? Because it is a place where it is appropriate for you.

to hate and you let that hate out. God kill you. I get that guy out of the field. You piece of shit, you're right. And you can then be like, all right, let's go home, Billy. Come on, come on, come on, boys. I've never looked at it like that. Yeah, because we are getting fewer and fewer spaces and places in society where we can

tip out our buckets in a safe, you know, an acceptable way. When can you tip off your bucket? You know, like, you can't even fight as kids anymore. So you can't tip off that bucket. So when does that happen? it can't. When can you swear at somebody? You can't, you can't. So you can't tip that bucket. When can you? And if you can't, I feel like we just become more and more and more repressed. The feeling you get, you've seen me when I, if I watch a Liverpool game with Ryan,

and Ryan's wife will always say, she'd be like, why do you do this to yourself? And I go, because it's amazing. Yeah. I get to ride a rollercoaster of emotion. I get to swear. I get to be angry. I get to be joyful. I get, what a be, in 90 minutes, I get to ride. a wave of emotions that if we're honest in the grand scheme of things doesn't really affect me. I think that's a beautiful thing in life.

I think it's worth preserving for people. But now we have fewer and fewer avenues for it. And one of the last ones is social media where people anonymously can just come and be like

outrage. Yeah. Anger. Sports fans usually, when their team wins, they go, we won. Yeah. And when the team loses,

they go we lost. Yes. What's up with that? I'll tell you where Sengenagupi. Sengenapi means where do you enter? How do you enter into it? Yeah, because why did we lose? Why did we win?

12th man. Can I tell you? That's another reason I love sports. Yeah, we're there. We take for granted. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, we're there.

Wait, wait, what is Anfield without the fans? What's UT football without men? So the tough men phenomena is a real thing. 100%. You're experiencing all they must. motions. Oh, like I work with a lot of sports teams. Yeah. No, you, you, you, yeah, I mean, you have to, the 12th man is such a real thing that if you're playing, if you're playing a, an opponent that has a strong 12th man element, I would say 12th person, because I'm a women's sports person too,

but 12th person, let's say 12th man, fucking hell, I can't, I don't know, 12th man. This is what I mean. Financial Times article. What's the 12th man. 12 men man man is 12 person 12 person

you know can I tell you the funniest thing about that this is like just perspective to that so my mom lives the most offline existence of most human beings I know she almost lives apart from time for the most part

right and sometimes I like to engage my mom with things that current society is like dealing with just to see how she processes it almost from an off-the-grid perspective. Right, right, right, right. The cabin in the woods.

Yeah, completely. And I'll just be like, hey, what do you think about? And one of my favorite ones was asking her about this. And I said, you know, I'll say this like, I'll poke her, but not in like an agitating way. But I'll be like, oh, should we not also say, you know, because it's person, because of, and then my mom goes, she literally said to me, she went, not even fighting. She's like, what do you mean? the man covers everyone then I'm like

no it doesn't fire man and then she's like spell woman for me and then I was like W-O-M-A-N she's like what's at the end of it she's like we're using the abbreviation for everyone she's like I've never thought of it like that

she's like yeah fire man because it's like human so I'm taking all of this and she's like woman human man she's like it's all we've just gendered the last part she was like I would she's like no you would gender I'm not it's just the abbreviation

And I was like, that's interesting. Yeah, and she was like, I don't know why there's a problem. Yeah, the tough man sounds better than tough person, nish, human. Yeah, but it's also, for me, it just gave me a perspective that I didn't have. Yeah, yeah. Where I went, huh, human, human. And my mom genuinely was processing it from that lens. She was going the end of, if you want to make, if there's a dog that fights fire, we'll call it a fire dog.

is there's a human that fights fire we'll call a fire man. That's how she was doing it. She was going the end of human. The species is at the end. Yeah, the species is the man part. Yeah. The man is not gender.

No, no, no. That's in her head. That's not how she was doing it. And I was like, damn, what a interesting way. That isn't, linguistically, it's really interesting. I would say when we make a dollar for the dollar, then I'll let go of the gender neutral. But until, while we're making the 74 cents,

I'm going 12th person. I don't give a shit whether it sounds good or not. And if it would have started 12th person, it would sound normal now. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But that's language. But that's language. Everything is going to sound weird until it's normal.

So, but the 12th person, the stands or as a player is so significant that it changes the training weeks leading up to games where that phenomenon is the strongest. I always show this great clip when I'm talking to leaders. and I think it was Colorado going to play Oregon. And their stands are so nuts that for the week leading up to the training, they just put the Oregon fight song on huge stacks of speakers at the training and follow the players around. No way. It's so demoralizing.

You can't hear the play calls. You know, when it's third down, I'm a Longhorn fan, so University of Texas, third down, it just says on the big thing, make noise. And we get so loud that they can't hear the play call. So they're probably going to, if they can't hear the play call, how fast or slow the pocket collapses around the quarterback will change. And that means they will probably try to run the ball instead of throw the ball. And if we're in like a short yardage situation, I mean, it just gets very complicated.

It gets messy. So 100%. I mean, I think you saw that at the Derby, you know, Liverpool. You saw that it's just, it's very, if you love football, you can watch people fighting back tears that are fans of the other team in Anfield when they sing, you'll never walk along. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's something. It's, man, it's magic. Goose bumps have goosebumps. Goose bumps.

It's like pickleball. You can't even, you know who said it the other day actually was they asked, um, wow. They asked Luis Enrique, the coach of PSG. They said, hey, we read a story that you snuck into a Liverpool match right after you retired from playing football. You came and you watched the... And then first he was taken aback, then he's like, oh, he's like, who has that question?

And he's like, that's good research. And then he's like, yeah, I just wanted to come to Liverpool to experience it. And he says, oh, he's like, it's not just a stadium. He says it was... He's like, you feel their plans. It's a cathedral. It's a cathedral. Yeah. It makes the people feel...

I've seen teams lose. because the fans got nervous. Yeah. The fans start being like, and then the players are like, yo, stop that, man. You feel that on stage as a comedian. But you think about,

sometimes you're telling a joke, and there's an audience that is completely comfortable and with you. You'll go to the craziest places with that joke. And then sometimes there's audiences where as soon as you go down, then they're like, oh, boy, Eugene,

we're going to lose our jobs, Eugene. And then you go, damn, if I go, I'm going alone. do I want to go alone? But when an audience is with you, that's when, I mean, you know, you make magic that you couldn't make alone. You guys are shifting my perspective and it's, I know it's a sports analogy, but now I'm starting to get a little bit about how you describe the 12th person.

It's, I've always looked at sports as exclusive instead of inclusive. So I've never, I've never looked from the field to the crowd thinking this thing is bringing them together. They're having a hot dog. They're meeting up. They're dressed the same. They agree on what the play should be. I've always looked at why do those people get to do what they like and the rest of them have to watch them.

Oh, wow. Wow. That's how you've seen it. I've always seen it like that. Oh, no. So I've never understood why would everyone come to watch these people, few people doing what they like. And the rest of them don't have the opportunity to do what they like. I've always looked at it as exclusive instead of inclusive.

So this is really interesting because, okay, I, I think I disagree with some of the things you said from a different perspective. Do it. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to go back because there were so many things that I'm going to know. When we, we, I interviewed you at a conference, like was a year and a half, two years ago. Probably, yeah.

Yeah. I've not stopped thinking about that conversation. And I really have beef with you on one of the things you said because it really changed my worldview. Oh, I love it. It really pissed me off. Let's do it. But so I don't want to leave with this unfinished business this time. So, so one.

That's what we're going to call this episode, Brunei Brown, unfinished business. That's what you're going to call it. I'm going to need you in some seven-inch shorts. If you're going to be with me, I want some short shorts, baby. I want like, I want like Larry Bird, five-inch. Yeah, okay. So I don't know that I disagree with you, but I'm trying to, make sense of things. So one, the collective bucket is full and you're in the right place at the

wrong time and you're going to catch the stuff flowing from the bucket, whether it's hate, sometimes it's love. Sometimes you're the right place to catch the love. Okay. So I absolutely experienced that. And like I had to fight when, I had to fight not crying when you were talking about because I have been in the exact right place at the exact wrong time. Oh, wow. And really caught rage, just buckets and buckets and buckets of rage. So I think that's true. The other thing that is weird that I've never had a conversation about in my life, because I didn't want to admit to my team, I didn't want to admit to my therapist that I have

DM'd a couple of people on occasion and said, man, it's really hard to hear that you think this about me. And I'm curious about, can you help me understand what you're basing that on? Like, where, what, how did that happen? I want to know. And it's always been like, oh, my God, Brunei Brown is DME me? And then it's like, they share their screenshot. And I love her and she really, you know, and then I've never once had someone come back to me with never once.

I've only probably done it. So small sample size four or five times. But it's always been kind. And, you know, and so that's weird. The thing that I would say about. The inclusive versus exclusive and the collective dumping of emotion is one thing that we haven't talked about yet that I think is neurobiologically, I know is neurobiologically hardwired, is belonging. Mm-hmm. And so genuine belonging is very, very difficult because.

belonging doesn't ask us to fundamentally change who we are. It requires that we be who we are. So if I'm, if y'all are friends and I'm going to, you know, I can't get a brief from my team on y'all and know exactly what to say. Because then I'm not being myself and if you like me for that, I know it's fraught. Right. Because the second I'm myself, then I'm doomed. Genuine belonging really requires the capacity for people to stand on their own and be. alone. And if you can stand on your own and be alone and then be yourself and then there's real connection. So genuine belonging is tough. One of the fastest neuro hacks to belonging is collective

schadenfreude. No ways. That is one of the, that is, it gives us full body feelings of belonging. No ways. We are going to connect mutually in watching this person. and fall. And it gives us all kinds of goosebumps. It gives us all kinds of sense of we're together. And what I say is, I don't really know you, but our connection, the three of us, is we hate the same people. Damn. We're at a public square for a hang. Yeah, we're at the public square for a hanging. And there's a couple of things that are happening in that public square at the moment. One, we're gathered. One, there's a ton of adrenaline. Two, we're very limbic. and the part of our mind that's very fight, flight,

you know, we're also mitigating each other's shame about enjoying this. That's what a mob, you said this with firing squad. Yeah, yeah, we're mitigating each other's shame.

So the collective schadenfreude about watching someone, especially who's got celebrity or a platform fail, is it's not lasting or meaningful. It's kind of like you're hardwiring it. I mean, hot wiring it, like you hot wire a car

if you're stealing it, Right? But it's there. So that's one thing I would say is we, I don't think we can forget the counterfeit connection we get from collective schadenfreude. And in a world where so many people are in pain and need, don't have what it takes to forge real connection because we're so lonely right now. It's very, it's a really, it's a surefire way to get it. It's just absolutely a Faustian bargain, right? we've never been so alone in a room full of people right open your phone dozens of people you're right we've never been so alone right and so we're so alone

and again neurobiologically hardwired for connection in the absence of connection there is always 100% of the time suffering and so we're suffering and so to be with a group of people even in the comment section

it's a hit It's just a hit of connection really quickly. It is corrosive and damaging over time because we know it's not real, but it can give us something quick. So I would say we should really think about the collective schadenfreude and need for belonging that we're getting. The second thing I would say is one of the things that worries me a little bit about, and I get criticized for this a lot, and I think some of the criticism has been helpful because, I mean, if we, we're not, we're not. When I wrote Strong Ground, it probably has the last leadership book I'll ever write. And it came out last year. It probably has 30 sports metaphors in it, like chapters built.

I mean, there's a chapter called the Tush Push. Yeah. Because I think sport is leadership theater. It's everything. Yes. Right. I think it's life theater. It's life theater.

It really is. And so the one thing I would say is dangerous is us collectively coming together to find place to empty our rage bucket, for me, is the best of sport and why sometimes I find it indefensible and the worst of sport. Interesting. So we know that the busiest day of the year for domestic violence hotlines is Super Bowl Sunday. I did not know that. Yeah.

We know more women are beat by male partners on Super Bowl Sunday. Are you being serious? Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. We know that. And I'm talking about this honestly because I came from kind of a baller family. We were athletes. My dad played football in college.

But I also grew up with a very complex father who Sundays were not safe in our house based on how games went. Because we weren't, you know, American, we grew up with NFL was like our Premier League, right? Right. So I would also say that giving ourselves permission to feel hate or rage in sport is really dangerous. So right now what I'm seeing with college football teams that I work with are, and I hate to be the downer in this, but I think it's a really important conversation. The realistic, yes. The realness, it's not even down. are these 18 to 22 year old kids

that are playing college football that are, and we'll get into a really hard topic here, that are getting death threats every day because betting has become such a problem. It's a scourge. It's a scourge. And fuck the people who do it. No, no, it's a scourge.

And that market to young boys who are lonely and need the hit. So these football players, many of him who've trained and worked their whole lives. For a lot of them, it's their way out. It's their way to a college education are getting really death threats every day that, hey, your fumble cost me my parlay.

And so sometimes, you know, as a UT football, huge fan, season ticket holder, sometimes I have to put myself in a trance to get through a game when I'm seeing that, you know, 240-pound guy yelling at the 19-year-old kid. That you're a loser and you're ass out there and you know and I'm like these are kids like it's I think sports is the best of us but

I also think it's the worst of us I agree completely look at the racism in in European football like I mean just so I think I think people should take more accountability for their buckets oh that I completely agree with yeah no what I was referring to is the person who has been drenched. I was, you know, I was talking about like how as a we've all. A person who catches it. The person who catches it. You've experienced it in your life.

You've been a child. You have been a spouse or a partner. You've been an employee. You've been a citizen. You've been a bystander. Whatever it is. You've been somebody who has experienced a drenching. And all I was referring to is the thing that helps me,

even though the drenching doesn't necessarily change, is just trying to remember that that bucket could have hit anyone. And it just makes, it helps me remember it because I think sometimes what happens in life, what sometimes happens in life is we, without knowing it, ask ourselves or blame ourselves or question ourselves or infer anything about ourselves because the thing happened. What did I do to bring this on? Anything. Oh man, I wish I hadn't crossed the street that day.

I shouldn't have been walking. I shouldn't, you know, because we've been raised in many worlds, you know, depending on your culture as well, so many of us have been told that we are the masters of our universe, that when it rains, it's raining on me, I shouldn't have been. It's like, but what this, that's why I say it's a little, it's, some of it is almost a little spiritual because when I was, when I was in Bhutan and there were monks who articulated it way better than I had ever been able to like fumble through it. They sort of made me realize they were like,

oh no, no, no, no. The thing is not happening to you in that way. You are there, so it is happening, you know? And so we think of... Oh, I got chills. We always think of everything in the world focused on us. Like it's got a point of view. We are at the center of it.

We struggle to consider the possibility that we are on the periphery of, anything. That's why I said when the extraction happened, when I step back, I was like, these things are still happening. Yes. My life is still happening. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's what I mean. Yes. So to come back to it, I love what you said. Nailed it. Because that thing, that's one of the biggest things that we always have to work on in a society is going, hey, just because your bucket got full doesn't mean that now, you know what I mean? It's the same. We do it with trash funny enough in real life. We go like, just because your trash is full,

You can't just go dump it in the streets. Find a place. There's a legal way to go and get rid of your trash. There's a correct way that society has determined. You cannot just dump your... No, no, no, no, no. Just because your toilet is full, doesn't mean you can, like, go pour it in the hallway

of your apartment building. Oh, well. But you get on saying, there's rules about this. But what I'm saying is... Where do you think... What I'm saying is I wish in society, to your point, actually, I wish we spent more time discussing and trying... trying to figure out the emotional spaces for dumping, the emotion, like, because we, we forget

that nobody teaches us these things. Nobody teaches anybody these things unless you really go out and look for it. Not the emotional offloading. No one, no one. No one teaches you these things. But you do know, even a child is taught how to throw their trash away. Hey, hey, hey, you don't put that on the ground. You go and you put it inside the trash.

No, no, no, no, we don't throw it out the window. We go and we put that. You don't throw it at another person. We're going and just at a very young age, you learn that the trash you have is meant to go into that vessel over there. In Japan, when I was there, it was even a higher level. That's not. They were like, no, no, you keep your trash and you take it home with you and then you deal. There's no one who's going to come fetch bins in the street.

But they're the same people that disappear into a forest that never come out. So now it is, but it is that. Actually, it's that extreme. They've gone like one extreme. Yeah. You know? So what I'm saying, I wish we had exactly your sentence. I wish we had more of learning.

and teaching each other how to throw our emotional trash away in a bin and not at a person and not on the floor and not, does it make sense? It totally makes sense. But I want to know. So that's why, okay, yes, that's why I think sports could be a dangerous place to do it because depending on how dirty your trash is, it still can be dangerous. What's the composting plan? So I could say easily, but this is not accessible for everyone. And I could say, I have tons of bins full of shit. Yeah.

So therapy has, therapy and coaching has taught me to compost my stuff. But that's not accessible to everyone. I know. I think I figured this out. I was having a conversation this week and I said that composting plant for that discourse is healthy disagreeability with people that you like. Yeah. I do agree with that. Oh, my God, that's good.

Say that again. Healthy disagreeability with people that you like. Okay, wait a second. Let me trash. Yes. And I'm going to compost it because I'm going to have healthy. Disagreeability? 100%.

Someone that I like. Is it someone you like or is it someone you trust? Both. It could be someone I love, someone I like, someone I trust. Essentially fundamentalists get along with. Yes, I do know the one thing that could, that scares me the most that you would have, you said at the beginning was belonging. I know that's not threatened by us not agreeing.

It's not threatened. But that is so. I'm never going to not belong here anymore just because we had this healthy. The fact that you like Liverpool and I like nothing is healthy. Because it's a disagreeable that's healthy. It doesn't threaten the way you think of me.

I will never not belong here anymore in this friendship. So I'm training that muscle and I'm learning a little bit of rejection here and a little bit of being wrong here and sometimes giving in. Because I've learned that sometimes in those healthy disagreeabilities, people go, oh, I see. Okay, I am having such a moment.

I do love you even though. And we'll go to Anfield after pickleball. You will never walk alone. He looked me dead ass in the eye and said that like you meant it. I got goosebumps when you said it. Thank you. Walk on. Yeah, okay.

What is he doing? He's such a troll. He's such a troll. He knows exactly. He knows exactly. To be an excellent troll. you have to be willing to delve into the depths of the things that you wish to troll about. That's Eugene's level of dedication.

He'll learn players, coaches, games, everything, so that he can fully participate in the level of trolling that he needs to. Yeah, I mean, I felt like you just did something where it's like, I'm like, hey, and they're like, oh, I'm bleeding. I just got shibbed by like, like, yeah. But I didn't even feel it going on. No, no, no, no, no, no, really gently. It's a smile.

Yeah, it's the shiving versus the shanking. Okay, I am, okay, so what's so weird is... Let me sheath. My shoe. Yeah, can you put that shit away? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, got it. In your five-inch shorts. Okay, so I'm like, I'm connecting things that are like, maybe true or maybe no.

Let's just try it on. So you said something when you listed all the things that are happening as we disagree. Like, ooh, I'm kind of, I'm taking one to the chin. I'm giving one. I'm being forgiven. I'm forgiving. There's some grace, like that back and forth that happens, right? When you belong and you can really disagree.

One of the things, then I'm tying that to when you said, you know, we're not kids. kids are not fighting anymore, which is probably good that we're not like, you know, like to the degree that like when I was raised where you, you. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's degrees of everything. Yeah. Right. Exactly. But I will say one of the thing that's really, one of the things that's really coming up for me is the research on the importance of play. Yes. And physical play. And kind of shoving down play. You know, I'm swinging from the bar and I kick you and then you, you know, Because one of the things it does when we're young is play teaches us a lot about how to develop relationships in the context of learning how to push, how to be pushed, how to forgive, how our choices actually impact other people and how to we can wrestle and have fun and enjoy it. There's a line, right? And kids are not playing anymore. Kids are on screens. They're not playing anymore.

So I think I'm just curious. about like it goes back to even our conversation about sanitized, sanitized interviews or weaponized interviews. We just don't know how to get in there and shove around a little bit and become better human beings. So when I, sorry. No, no, I was going to say, so even with, you know, what I love is the framing that you're using there with the kids,

I think we take for granted how how adept kids are at actually understanding that play delineates from life. So if you remember being a kid, there are things that would happen on the playground or in a play setting that would hurt you, that would make you angry, that would make you happy, that whatever it was. But in a strange way, you knew that that wasn't your life. That's 100% true. Does that make sense? So you could say with a kid, I mean, you're a father, but you could like say with a kid, with a kid you could go, what happened?

And then it's like, oh, they were playing. Don't push while you're playing. But there was this weird, there was this line where you sort of like knew that that happened in the playland, even though it was real, but it happened in playland. And then you can now come back to normal life where it is not happening. You hurt your knee doing that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes.

That thing happened there. The person pushed you there. Contacts. And while it is still not acceptable, it is more acceptable that it happens there. If a kid pushes you on the playground, at least when I was growing up, they would deal with it differently to if a kid pushed you in class. Yeah, for sure. Don't play rough. Right.

But in class, it was like, no, no, no, now you're fighting. Right. This is full on. No, okay. I don't know where this is going, but this is so true. Okay, yes, that's true. But do you get what I'm saying? A hundred percent.

So what I'm- The sky is real. Yeah. The bandage is real. But it happened there. In a context where it was normalized. Yes. And it was almost not real.

That's the main thing for me is that it was almost not real. Maybe that's where Because I'm starting to realize here There's a pattern of The effects of things that we feel Say for example, you're in a relationship And then you are being vulnerable to this person Yeah

And then they throw it back at you Oh God Later on You're like no, it happened there When I was feeling this But now you bring it here So that scar is real That pain is real

But it's at the wrong place We're not at the playground So you're not allowed to shove me And then the fall won't be associated with play. Yeah, it's not. Yes, the fall now is real because now you've taken

what should be happening there and it's happening here. So the best way I can, if I go back to sports, this is what I will say. One of the things I try to remind myself of is the fact that there are many things happening in the world

that are merely magnifying glasses on a symptom, but they're not the cause. So where I'll go back on the sports thing is I'll go, it is sad to say, but it's probably true. I don't think domestic abuse, changed because of sports.

I don't know the numbers, but if I was, if I was to bet, I would say, I don't think that domestic abuse changed because of sports. No. I still go back to the bucket. I go, that man uses the sports to fill his bucket,

who's in the house with him, his wife and kids. And processed rage. Yeah. But the buck, he used, so that sports game became the thing that like, all right, now I've got the excuse. And justified outrage.

That's right. It's the excuse now. but the excuse would have come from anything and anywhere. And so that's why. So maybe this will help, like what I love about it in the right ways. One of the things that has gone down in soccer, at least, over the years, racism has gone down.

There's still many instances, but it's definitely gone down in football and footballing. Another thing that's gone down is violence. I agree. Right? So the hooligans? Yeah, it's really, really, It's really gone down.

There's still definitely case, but it's not what it used to be. And again, this is just me and my observation of the game. I think one of the things we take for granted in the sport, and I'll show you why I think this is important, is I think it, when athletes themselves saw and treated each other like humans beyond the uniforms, I think the teams and the, like the fans also started. seeing that as a possibility, subconsciously or consciously.

And what I mean by that is... I agree. If your team is playing on the field and they go punch the other team, something went wrong on the field and they start punching, I believe you are more likely to feel like it is apt for you to go and punch someone outside

because they're wearing another uniform. Right. That's what I believe. Right. If they do it first. Yes. Oh, I think violence is normalized then. Yeah, for sure, sure, sure.

You're like, this is what we need to do to the other. Yeah, this is normalized. Because the people I look to, they do it. I will go outside and I too shall do it. But when you see them helping each other up, hugging, talking after the game, just like not having that thing. To give the other person a breather. Sort of what happened in, was it one of those big WrestleMania's at Madison Square Garden

where like, I think it was like, was it Brett Hart? I don't know who was breaking off. It might have been like, who's like out the kick again? What's his name? They say, I'm sexy. Sean Michaels. Yeah. When they were like, they were breaking off, remember?

What did you? I had to do the move to get... distinctly gravitate to they say I'm... I thought it was the rest of the song. Damn, sexy. I don't know how to... You see? Cognitive, bias.

No. The world of science, we call that. Leave me alone. I'm like fascinated. No, no, no. I'm like, about Wimbledon. No, I know it's a long explanation, but this is what I mean. No, I'm tracking.

In that moment, yeah. What the wrestlers did was so some of, wrestlers were breaking off to a different federation. It was like live and Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then on the night, they stopped in the middle of a fight and they went and they hugged each other and they were like, I'm going to miss you.

But they were like enemies on the wrestling scene. Yeah, there were the rivals. I love those human moments in sports. They're my favorite. But so many people in wrestling and the fans that were so angry because it like broke the thing that they were trying to maintain.

Do you know what I mean? Directly in the camera. camera. Yeah, they let their humanity out a little bit. But more than that, for me, what I think was the people, especially the fans that night who were there, I think they were angry as well because you've taken away our sort of like, not that people are going to go punch each other. I don't think wrestling at hooligans, but you've sort of put the response about the emotional responsibility back on us now. To check ourselves?

Because you can't go that they hate each other and beat each other. So you're like, so my rage is just my rage. It's not a. Does this make sense? Yes, 100%. It's my thing. It's not their thing. And so when I extrapolate it further, I go, world leaders. I don't think you can take for granted how in the United States,

people always talk about people are more polarized. People, yes. But you know what? We should never take for granted is the fact that over the past few decades, fewer and fewer politicians from opposite sides of the aisle, because there's only two here for some crazy reason, don't come out together and do things together and show each other together and be together.

They don't. And one of the worst examples of this for me was when I think it was like Chris Christie was fights up against Hillary Clinton back in the... I was like, but these people, they're like friends. They get along. It felt like wrestling. But I was like, but their fans don't know.

The fans don't know that they can argue about law and still get along. The fans don't know that they're arguing in Congress but then they go have lunched together. The fans don't know this. Theater. But I'm just saying it's in theater, right?

No, but I'd say even... Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond theater, let's even give them the benefit of the doubt. It may not be theater. It's an aspect of what they do. When you work in government, you argue against the other side. You fight against the other side.

That is part of the job. You're playing a sport of fighting politically. But it would be nice if you showed that you also see them as humans when you're not fighting because I do think then your fans in the stands would go, oh, oh, Mitch McConnell goes for lunch every day

with, you know, Chuck Schumel. No, it's why people lose their mind when they see George W. Bush and Michelle Obama. Yeah, hanging out. Yeah, people are like laughing. Yeah, yeah. People are, because now they seem like outliers because they do that when they get along,

but that used to be normal. And I think if the fans don't see it, if the people don't see it, we take for granted how much it's monkey see monkey do. Yeah, but I think when I look at sports, sometimes I look at how, because I like watching boxing, but there's one referee, I don't know his name,

but whenever he's officiating a fight, he also has blood on his shirt. Damn. Have you seen that referee? I don't watch boxing. He like gets in there and he's like, what does he look like? He's got a mustache.

mustache. Yeah. I think I know him. He's the only referee. Is the black guy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Another guy.

Another guy you're talking about. It feels like he's been in the game. He's been in the game. It feels like he can't take a side because you don't know whose blood that is. Yeah, yeah. But also, I've seen it with football as well. There's coaches who are calm, who will just sit there or with their hands behind or who will just calm the players down.

But there's other coaches who are like, ta-da-da-ha-ha. Yeah, in the game. And then the fans get instigated, you know, and the outrage becomes more. But the coaches, where I feel like if something wrong happens in the field, then the first person to go, yeah, they take responsibility for the men that they lead. And I think that's what's missing right now.

There's not enough emotional refereeing that people who know better can do, people who can stand up for each other, who can get themselves bloodied, although not needing to, but then they can get in there and go, this doesn't need to be said, that bucket does not need to be spilled,

and it wasn't your fault that it was spilled on you. Can I challenge this a little bit? I agree with you, but I actually don't think it's a fault thing. I think it's an amplification thing. I would argue there are as many people online who are putting out positive as negative, right? People, not bots and things. So let's exclude that because a lot of the internet is just fake. It's like 40% old.

It's a crazy number of like things. I get a thing from Instagram that literally will say 51,000 of your followers are bots. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a large portion. I'm keeping them, Mina.

There's a large portion. Talk to me, bot, HP2811. So, so, so, so let's exclude that part, the fake part of it. I'm saying the people online. If I, again, if I was just to guess, I would think you probably find it's an equal amount. Maybe even more positive. But I think those people don't get amplified. Hmm.

I think the person, especially in the digital world we live in. Feeling it? Even in the political, etc. I think the people who step in to try and referee moments, the people who try and do that, I don't think they get amplified. They really, really don't. No, I'm like fixing to square up.

Like, no, I, okay. I agree with everything you're saying, and I agree with everything you're saying. Please come live at our house. Yeah, yeah, I will. Bring fickle ball. Yeah, we'll make a net. I'm so frustrated right now.

that I think everything you're saying is true. I think, I wish there was another name for liberal democracy besides liberal democracy, because people hear the word liberal as the adjective to the type of democracy. And they go just freaking crazy. But democracy. I think democracy depends on what you're describing. I think that's, I think democracy depends on what you're describing.

Democracy depends on people understanding that we are not hating, that politicians are not hating each other. They are lunching, but they're debating politics. They're debating, you know, that is. I absolutely believe that authoritarianism depends on the vilification and dehumanization of political opponents. So when Trump, you know, whatever his thing, true socials. It reminded me of your joke. Don't put me back in that.

Move on. Don't move it back in it, please. You own this freaking platform. Why do you have to have the real doll at Real Doll, Thunchup, 4732? Like, dude. Anyway, but I think, like, when Robert Mueller died. Yeah. And he said, I'm glad he's dead. Like, that is not, that could be pathology,

but it's also authoritarianism from the playbook. Oh, for sure. So it absolutely depends on that. But what's scarier to me is democracy depends on understanding that policy differences can exist between people who see each other as humans with different ideas about how to achieve the same goal. And what I think is interesting about this tying sport back into that, where you see those coaches. And this is incredible. So when you look at the research on two types of teams, a team playing to not lose versus a team playing to win. So I'll take you right back to kind of the birds and the chiefs Super Bowl.

One of, and this is what's so interesting about what you're saying about amplification. One of, if you blindfolded me and put my back to the field, it doesn't matter the sport. and just had me listen to what it sounds like on the bench from Team A and the bench on Team B, I could predict probably with 90% accuracy, the winner, based on the contagion of emotion in the sideline. So negative contagion, the coach that's losing his shit, that kind of stuff. Negative contagion is one of the biggest predictors of a team playing to not lose. No way. Right.

So let's say you, let's say, let's take American football. So I fumble the ball. Yeah. And I come back to the sideline. And you're like, what the fuck, dude? That is so negative contagion. So amplification, it is amplification because we know that all of the social media platforms. We know that we can keep people on the platforms longer through negativity than positivity.

Right. Yeah. We know commercially incentives, again, aligned incentives, right? So the more vitriol and hate, the longer I stay on. We also know that in general, negative rumination and emotion lasts longer than positive emotion. But if I get off the field and then you hit my helmet and say, you're good, you're good. After I've dropped the ball and caused a turnover. You're safe.

I'm safe. Yeah. And it actually predicts winning. It predicts score. Wow. So one of the things that just happened, like, I'm a huge Spurs fan. Let's go! I love the Spurs.

I love Tim Duncan. I love David Robinson. I love Wimby. I love the Spurs. I love Genoblee. Like, let's go. So in a press conference, I could cry around and tell the story. And first of all, like watching David Robinson and Tim Duncan on the sidelines watching the Spurs right now.

Intergenerational joy. I mean, I just. cry when I see it, literally. And so during a press conference, they ask Wembe, is it really scary for you, this, this like threat of seeing those guys on the sideline? Like, like, just legends, right? These legends. And he said, no, it just feels safe. I feel held. Like, if I fall, there'll be someone there. Look at Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan goes to rehab with Popovich every day. Wow. I mean, this is like, this is not soft bullshit. Yeah.

This is what it means to win. Positive emotional contagion. Love, care. That's winning. You know, and people don't get it because they're so afraid, you know, that it's not masculine and it's not tough. But love is what wins.

Leading with it, yeah. Leading with love. Yeah. We were saying this the other day. We were saying kids get taught this almost instinctually and automatically from their parents to lead with love. But just using two words that linch everything in. Thank you and please.

So before you have to say the thing that you are thankful for, you have to say thank you for. And before you have to ask for anything and be vulnerable and open yourself up, you have to say, may I please have? And then we as people as we grow older, we find ways not to use those words and lead with love first. 100%.

You'd be like, yeah, yeah, for that thing, yeah, you know what I mean. But you're like, no, you could have said thank you for that thing. Or may I please have this thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this, yeah. So you're avoiding leading with love. And you're avoiding vulnerability.

Yeah, because you know that once he said this the other, he was like, once you've said, may I please. Oh, you're open. You're open. You're fully open. And then you've put the request last. So you were like, me, my need, and the request. May I please have whatever it is?

And that's what we want. And I feel like adults can just go back by just using those two words again. Please and thank you. I think there are functions of love. And there are functions of love. I think hard. They're functions of love. There are functions of vulnerability.

I haven't thought about it enough, but I guess where I'd be curious is do they require a level of safety? They definitely do. Definitely. I think, yeah. No, a thousand percent. They definitely do. Because each one requires you to in some way, shape or form humble yourself, right? There is a humility.

Yeah, because thank you for opens you up to debt. It does. It immediately opens you up to debt. Neither one of us like that. We don't like that over here. We don't like debt. I don't want to owe you that shit. You owe me a pickle game.

You're different because you're wearing short shorts. But it's different. Yeah, you see, there's no debt. Now it's paid. But you see what I'm saying. Paid in full, baby. Yeah. People take that for granted. One of the reasons thank you can be so hard is because it opens you up to debt. Thank you for looking after me when I was sick. Thank you for coming to my birthday point. Thank you for loaning me that money. Thank you for calling me. Thank you for because we live in a world where somewhere along the line we've been taught whether it's internally, externally, whatever, that debts have to be repaid. You know, Atlanta still always pays its debts. And so now... It hits against hyper individualization. There you go. So now for me, if I say thank you, oh, damn, okay, you've got it. Now it's a debt.

You got me now. Yeah, and maybe your parents taught you that, for instance. So you go like, hey, thank you for fetching me from school, mom. And then your mom goes, yeah, next, and now when I ask you to do your clean your room later, you better do it. Oh, damn. So you know what this? There's a meme right now for Mother's Day that I,

freaking hate. It's thinking about not saying thank you to your mom. This is how long an epidural needle is. You see, it's debt. Yeah, it's debt. That's what I mean. But love is not duty. Yeah, but this is what I mean.

It's like love is not duty. Yes, but it is debt. This is what I mean. So all these things, same thing. Open you up. Please, I mean, you are completely at the mercy. Bare open, yeah. You are completely at somebody's mercy.

it's easier for me to say, Yo, Eugene, are you going to finish that? Yes. Now I'm doing you a favor. You're going to finish that? No. All right, man. Let me handle that for you.

You didn't do anything for me. Are you going to finish that? You're not going to finish it, so I will finish it. Whereas if I go, Eugene, can I have the rest, please may I have the rest of your drink? Yeah. Now, you can open yourself up. I'm dead, bro.

You've given me enough time to even decide what I want to say to you. I'm dead. It's a signal. It's too. And, boy, we hate this. we love death by rugged individualism in this country, but it is a signal to please and thank you of something we're not good at, which is interdependence.

Yes, completely. Yeah. Interdependence. I need you and you need me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm going to use a language. Because, like, say something like, thanks for taking care of me when I was sick last week.

Say that to me. Thanks for taking care of me when I was sick last week. There's nothing. Yeah. It was nothing. Yeah. Like, as opposed to, you're welcome, and I'm so glad you're better. Hmm.

Damn. You know, it's, it's, or, when my kids were growing up, we really taught them that when someone said, I'm sorry, to never say it's okay. Say more? So, we always taught them to say, thank you. I appreciate the apology. like I just say thank you that I appreciate that so like let's say yeah but but why I'd love to know the why because it's not okay it was not okay so it was an offense it was it was not okay actually and so it's not my job to make you feel better and I appreciate you making repair so so let's say

um you say to me bray I'm sorry that text came off as shitty so you say that to me brunay I'm sorry that text came off as shitty thank you I appreciate it so So the first time I had to apologize to one of my kids for kind of losing my cool, I went and I said, you know, I'm really, I think he was 10. I said, I'm really sorry about how I showed up. I think I got scared and I wasn't my best self and I apologize. Some looked at me and he goes, thank you. I was like, God damn, you're grounded dude. I was like, I'm a little smart. Every parenting gene that was set by my parents. That's so funny.

Who would have killed me in that moment? That is so funny. When he said, thank you. I appreciate it. I was like. He didn't absolve you. It wasn't like, it's okay, mommy. You're doing your best and I know what you're going to.

No, no, no, no, no. It was like, thank you. I appreciate it. I literally had to like close this door and be like, who, who, who, I was like, what the fuck. But I really. Because, like, you know, you see brother, I have a daughter and a son, and, you know, Ellen might way lay Charlie, you know, and then it's like, how do you think it feels for your brother? Right.

It probably hurts. I'm like, right. So what do we need to do next? And this is like such a pain in the ass because, like, I'm cooking and taking a work call. I have to pause everything. And it's, I'm like, you know, I was raising like, tell your brother, you're sorry. I'll kick your ass and you've been grounded for six weeks, you know. So then I had to sit down and say, how do you think that feels, this and this, you know?

And so then, okay, Charlie, I'm sorry. Thank you. Okay. Repair. See, that scenario that you painted, though, is one that I often mourn. When I think about the cost of hyper-individualism and extreme capitalism, the way we experience it now, it's made us trade without realizing our independence. but then also our level of connectedness.

Dependence, yeah. Literally what you're saying there. I'm cooking. I'm on a call and I'm looking after the kids. And then I can't help but extrapolate that to everything in society. I go, how many people are cooking, taking a call, looking after the kids, and then we expect them to be more patient in traffic. Do you know what I'm saying?

This is how my bucket gets full, actually. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm coming to. This is my rage bucket. There you go, because you're, cooking, you're taking a call, you're looking after the kids, and then on top of that, you've got your work, you're cooking, you're taking off the kid, and you got this, you get them saying? And you get the patriarchy and fascism.

There you go. Whereas, whereas when we look not to like some magical concept to a thing that many peoples were doing all over the world, I'm constantly shocked at how few adults you need to look after groups of children. Yes. We take that for granted. Even now, people have. a babysitter for their child, a babysitter for a child.

That's true. You know that you go to places where one adult can look after like a squad of like 15 to 20 kids and it's fine. That's how I was raised. It is fine. But we don't, we've like, we've forgotten what that load does. Like if you, if you live in a community, if you, if we didn't, and I understand why these things exist, but if we didn't live in a community where, you know, you know, we didn't live in a community where, you know,

know, like the emotional boundaries between our spaces also, like, enforced our physical ones. You realize, like, one person could cook and go, like, I'm going to cook. And now all the kids are in one place. And then the person is looking after all the kids and then other people are helping with the cooking and then other. Yeah, community. Yeah, but people sometimes treat it like you're pitching like a weird commune type. But I'm like, but we used to like do this. We had the ability to do this. And life is a constant balance between how much do I have to. to myself, time, privacy, etc. And how much do I get to bear with others because it's necessary?

Yeah. And if we get that balance wrong, and I think we're getting it wrong, especially in the West, what it then means is your bucket is going to fill up so much faster and we're just going to have less time to be because everyone is doing the work that each person needs to do when one person could have been doing a bunch of work for a bunch of people, giving them time of giving them. You know where I realized that funny enough?

One of the craziest realizations for me, I love speaking to people who've been married for long and people who've been divorced and people, one of the most fascinating conversations I had was with a man

who got divorced, him and his wife were married for like 25 years, they got divorced, and he even said it he was like, the reason I asked him was because we were in the same vehicle

being transported to a hotel and he was on a FaceTime with his ex-wife. and they were laughing and chatting and blah blah blah and share okay bye bye bye bye um and then we started talking you know just conversation one thing led to another and he was like oh no that I'm divorced that's my ex-wife I was like damn you guys seemed pretty cool he said yeah I'm really lucky we had a great divorce you know as great as a divorce can be he said but now we always joke about how we're living our best lives me and her and I was like

what do you mean and he said because we didn't realize the whole time when we were married that we didn't have to do all the work together. We could give each other a break and one of us could work and one of us could rest. And he's like, now we do that. So now when I'm working with the kids, she's completely free. When she's working with her, I'm completely free.

And we joke and go, why didn't we do marriage like this? Because one of the things that drained them was the fact that they were constantly doing. They were up at night. then they were at school things. Then they were at, then they were at then they. So both people are getting tired, doing a job that one person can do.

And then when they now split the labor, they're living their best lives. That's true, actually. And my brain genuinely finds these connections through all things in society. Genuinely, like all things, all things in society. We don't understand how much we can be helping each other with just things, but we haven't been sold that as a feasible way to live. and then we wonder why we experience the effects that we do. I mean, I think that's true.

I mean, Steve and I will be together for 40 years. My husband, yeah. So what was this whole flirting thing about then? Well, were we flirting? I thought we were going somewhere, you and I. Now you bring up Steve. You really have to be careful about how. Wait, I want to know what was flirting.

No. Because we were going to play pickleball together? No, he's joking. This is the troll. Welcome to my life, Renee Brown. Welcome to my life. I mean, if I have to flirt with you to get you on the pickleball court, I'm not above that.

Oh, man, Eugene. Goodbye, Steve. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. You know, actually, there's something I was wondering the other day. You work with a lot of company leaders, right?

Like CEOs and everything. I was wondering if you have. have any intimate conversations with them about how they or rather what role they should be playing in a country that's falling apart at the seams. Yeah. I have yes. Yeah, I mean, I do. Let me go back to Steve because I want to tell you something about what, that you're, the connection you made in that car ride. Yeah. I think that saved my marriage, like what you're talking about. And I fought it tooth and nail. People always. say like, you've got y'all been together for 40 years, you know, with the secret. And I always

remember someone asking Paul Newman that about his marriage with Joey, you know, and he said, neither one of us wanted to get a divorce at the same time. I think, you know, when you're talking decades, that there's some truth to that. But I also think that, I mean, I hate this for you, but he's an amazing guy. Just really sweet. Just a kind, strong, but very loving person, pediatrician. But every day he just saw woman after woman after woman drowning in resentment and rage and grief

with a baby on the hip and a stew on the stove. And then every now and then a husband would come in and say, oh, here's my note about what I'm supposed to ask you and could you write everything that we need to do on a note? So, you know, you know,

You know, and he was also raised by a single mom and a Latina single mom, you know. So he had firsthand, firsthand. Yeah, he had very firsthand knowledge. And he's, you know, and I remember when we had our first daughter, I was still on my Ph.D. program. And I said, oh, God, you know, baby's crying. And he's like, I got it. And I said, no, I need to get up with you. And he said, I understand.

And, you know, and I remember this is like this is so related to it. I remember going to a therapist before we even had kids, and so I think I'm going to get a divorce. Like, I just don't think this is working. Wow. And she said, I could see that. And I said, right. Right. Like, I left this, like, therapist certified problematic.

And then she's like, he just likes you so much more than you like you. I can see how that would be frustrating. Yo. Wait, I love why we're pointing at him. Is this what makes him undatible by his therapist? No, no, no, whoa, whoa. No, he's saying this is what we've been talking about. Friene.

That wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't an accusatory snap. That's a, that's like, you hear this? That's, that's what he's saying with that. I read that more as like, no, no, no, no, no, that's his, no, no, that's his, that's his, like, we said liking Trump's everything. Yes. You have to really like the person. Because loving them, sometimes you love them, more than this.

But when you like someone, when you like your sweater, when you like, when you like your sweater, when you like your life. Like it's huge. It's massive. Like is huge. But that's a next level one of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You liked you more than you like yourself.

Yeah, I said, fuck you, dude. You're fired. Damn. I find another therapist. Yeah, but it was true. And I think part of it was, I think, coming from a single mom. Yeah. In a pretty racist San Antonio and a Latino single mom who was hustling and grinding.

You know, and then, I'm getting my PhD. I've been, when I told the program director at the time that I was pregnant, his first line was literally, we thought you were going to be someone. Jeez. Yeah. And so I think for Steve, he just thought, you're racing to find a spot under the buckets. You're waiting for the buckets to fall and then running under them to catch the shit as confirmation about what you're afraid of. like move away from the bucket spill, you know, to use our language.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think for me, it was, and it absolutely comes back to capitalism. It definitely comes back to, you know, patriarchy. It comes back to I should be able to do all this at one time really well, never miss a feeding, never miss this. And he's like, you know, you've got a grant due tomorrow. You sleep. I'll do this. Yeah.

You know, and then Did you have a lot of guilt in and around the idea of not doing it? Yeah, and then I would be like, oh my God, how am I going to do this? I've got this, I'm teaching, the class is going long, and Ellen's got this thing at 3.30, and can you be there? And he said, I can't be because I'm working. Okay, I'll reschedule.

And you can't be because you're working. Wow. But then when my daughter turned 16 for Mother's Day, I got a card from her that said, Thank you for showing me what it looks like to have a career that's meaningful for you and be a great mom. That's what I want. And I wish that you didn't feel as bad about it as you do sometimes. Wait, I'm going to do that part better.

I know. In other societies and other levels of life, that inconsistency for one parent or the other to be there might have been looked at as irresponsibility. Right. but you allow yourself to be inconsistent about it. I'm not always going to be there on Wednesday or for your doctor's appointments or to pick you up from tennis. I won't always be there, but it doesn't mean I don't love you. I'm leading with love. I'm doing what I need to do, what I love doing.

He's also doing what he needs to do and what he loves doing. But the inconsistency of the Wednesday pickup and the Saturday drop off won't be there, but it doesn't mean it's the absence of love. Oh my God. And this ties right back to what you said, because what happened that specific day? Tell me. My mom went. No, community. Yes.

Community. Yeah, and so it was, yeah. Yeah, community. My mom went. Yeah, or, yeah, when I had to put her in, you know, daycare, my sister was like, oh, because I have two younger sisters, I'll pick her up on Tuesday and Thursday. My other sister was like, I've got Fridays. And then when they're, you know, it was like, so we were definitely raised in that. Community.

That, that, and we didn't have the one to 15. ratio. We just had the oldest person to the 13 kids that were there. So we got the 16 year old taking care. And it works. Yeah. And then we'd be like, people forget that at work. Deputy parent. Yeah. Best parent ever. Guys, we're still here. This is what I always try and tell people is I go, sometimes in life now we're creating safeguards for things that were never really a problem. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? They go like, right now there's a 15 year old taking care of a seven year old. I'm like, yeah. And it works. It works surprisingly well. Great with dogs.

I'm not saying that this should be here, but I'm saying like this should not be the permanent solution, but we take for granted that as a species, we are quite interdependent and it works. It is not the anarchy. It's just not the anarchy that you sell it as. Yeah, and it's like. Yes, but you see, and this is where I have like a,

my conspiracy theory mind goes, you cannot show people that it works because then they will not participate in an economy. They won't buy the shit they need. Because if you, Because if you learn that your mom or dad is willing to take care of your kids on certain days, why are you now dipping into an app that finds babysitters for you? Why are you doing after care?

If you know, did you know, this is going to blow your mind? Both of you, I hope you're ready for this. Did you know that someone in your life is willing to drop you off at the airport? No. This is a real thing. I know a lot of people are going to be like, that's not a thing, Trevor. Like Uber? No.

You see, it's funny that you said that. You see, I love that. I got it from both sides. You see, but you see what they've done? I know, I know. I know. What they've done so well is they've made us replace ourselves as the default. And now we've thought of the service as the default.

No, that's true. We've replaced each other as the default. Or here's what, yes, and here's what, the other thing that's happening is I feel bad. Yes. Because I couldn't pick you up on Wednesday. Yes. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take my eight years. year old for a splurge at the cosmetic store so she can get eight year old facials and eight year old

lipsticks. It means like it is there is a yeah I mean this but I hate the late stage capitalism thing because it's just true but what are we going to do? I mean like like no I look what do you do? I think it here's the thing that I try and tell people and that's why I haven't forgotten my question to you when I have the opportunity to talk to like CEOs or big company anyone I genuinely asked them this question and I go, I said, do you realize, I understand that you live quarter to quarter. I understand this. So maybe you're not the person to speak to. But you do realize that society doesn't live quarter to quarter. And over the long term, you will have fewer quarters because at some point, society is going to turn against you. I don't know when, but I know that they will.

Because what you are doing is unsustainable. It is unsustainable. We now live in a world where we don't even own things that we buy. You ever think about how crazy that is? You buy music now. Have you ever read the terms and conditions? I do this to myself sometimes just because I'm entertained. It'll be like new terms and conditions and I go read it. You know now on many streaming services where you buy, I'm not saying you have the streaming

service, not Netflix. You buy an album or you buy a movie. Buy it. You know that you're not buying the movie. You are buying the right to watch it. To watch the movie or stream it. as long as that service exists. That's right.

So if they go away, the money goes as well. Yeah, but you don't know that. You think you are buying bad boys, the movie, and you have it. You do not have it. You don't even have the right to give it to your friend to watch anymore. We live in a world where now we're not even, this is like the further stage of late stage capitalism.

It's like paraconsumption. That's what I mean. It's like, before at least it was like, okay, capitalism's bad, but at least you were getting what you bought. You got shit. You were getting what you bought. Now they're like, no, no, no, no.

no. You do not own your car. You do not own your music. You do not own. And they will keep finding more and more ways for it to happen. And we don't realize that the infinite of the, I tell leaders this all the time, I go, at some point it's going to come to you. Trump is a byproduct of this. Yes, you know, Trump, yeah. Look, I think he's very like good at being charismatic. He's very good a seeming real on stage and all these things, all these things, yes. But him and the timing of him had to be perfect. I believe that's true. Him and the timing of him. Yeah. People love disruptors when something needs to be disrupted. You get what I'm saying? A hundred percent. People don't want to hear that though. That's really tough for people to hear. Yeah. So people love disruptors

when something needs to be disrupted. That's hard. Zoran Mamdani. There's a version of it completely opposite where you go like, well, how did his thing? because people then again went actually you're right you can't afford to live in New York no matter what your job is it's like only the super super super super rich are having a good time in New York

places are empty people can't live what's the point of the city anymore and then they go and then Zoran comes in and people are like how could anyone vote for him like yeah the only reason you don't understand it

is because clearly you are living in the lap of luxury and you're so removed from reality that you don't understand the people yeah that's why all the newspapers are like is Zoron going to destroy it In New York, it's like, no, that's the question that the boss of your newspaper has, not what the people have.

These things cannot go on forever. You cannot extract from people forever. At some point, people go, you know what? Look what's happening now? There are cities and counties and places where in America they're going, we're not going to approve the data center. This is a community. The water. The community is going, I know you want to build a data center here?

No. Oh, but AI, but they're like, eh. Our electricity prices keep going up. Nobody comes to us to tell us why or we don't see the benefits. Our water's running out. We don't see the benefits. And on top of that, it's not even like you're giving us this thing for free. You still have to subscribe and.

Yeah. So why would we actually, no, no thank you. No more. And I think the more people realize that, the more they are going to do something, because they can do something. And then that's when business is going to, remember, like, business didn't stop putting asbestos in things because it was fun for them. Business didn't stop, you know, or stop putting catalytic converters into cars because it was fun for them. Business will always work within the parameters it is given.

Yeah. It's a shock. It grows as big as its tank. It's as simple as that. And that's why I, like, I find myself wondering. I'm like, is it because, but you, you. literally work with CEOs, you help them, the human side of the company, I would love to know what some of the conversations you are that you have with these leaders in this climate where you go,

hey, you realize you're contributing on one end or the other. Either the threads you pull are so tight that people then make more extreme decisions or the example you're setting is so callous that people then feel like they should be careless. Does this ever come in? on that level? Yeah, I mean, I think it comes in on a daily basis. I think, first of all, I just want to say, the attention in the stories and the examples that you're given on something we never talk about,

which is the importance of conditions for things to happen. Yeah. There are very few people talking about what conditions needed to be present for a second Trump presidency. What conditions for Mamdani? What are the conditions? And it's interesting because we, it's just a separate conversation,

but I just wanted to say that it's very rare for me to be in a conversation with someone who appreciates that there really is very little that's as important as understanding conditions. People just don't understand it. Let me tell you how much people don't understand it. I can't wait. One of the most fascinating books I ever read was a book that basically, argued pretty successfully that all the beliefs you hold are not necessarily beliefs that you hold. They're merely the beliefs that were available to you in the environment that you were placed in. And it shows you how, in America, for instance, you just look at mountain ranges that exist

across the country and how water fell on either side of a mountain range. And that tells you whether or not somebody's conservative or liberal. A hundred percent. But I don't think many of the people who there would think that I am like this or I the things I think I believe are actually just primarily influenced by the condition I was on this side of the mountain there was less water times were harder things weren't as and that is why whereas on this side we had a river it rained more it did this there was there was more there was more there was more there was more work there was more so then I have these views or these ideas we constantly take for granted the environment constantly.

Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is, okay, if this could go down, we just have to do podcast 47 on systems theory, because this is system theory, like person and environment. I think if you understand conditions and you understand the neurobiology of the fact that we are not cognitive beings who on occasion feel, we are emotional beings who on occasion think. Damn. I think so if you understand conditions, and person and environment, and you understand emotion, the neurobiology of emotion

and everything, emotion, decision-making, emotion, everything. I think we would have a very, a much more clear picture of what we're complicit in, what we're doing, and what's happening. I think for the conversations, I have to be really careful about talking about this and not for NDA reasons, which those are, I got it. I got into those ass high at this point. But it's really because I didn't come into the work because I have an expert opinion on how the straight of hormones is going to affect supply chain along with tariff. I have to understand that stuff because I'm mostly just sitting in a meeting trying to understand if a group of people at a table can work well enough together and have the grounded confidence to make hard decisions together that are, you know.

I think a lot of times people who know me well will say, is your work kind of just a Trojan horse for making people kinder and braver to each other? And I was like, no, it's really about supply chain. You know, because it's not really. And so for me, I have to be careful because the assessment process for me to work with someone starts with the first question of, you want me to come in and make people braver. I'm happy to talk about that from an assessment perspective. The opposite of courageous leadership is not fear. What gets in the way is armor. People who are afraid every day and they still do brave things.

The opposite of courage is armor. How do we self-protect an armor up when we're in fear? That's what drives bad strategy, bad human interaction. And so if they're like, okay, we're willing to talk about armor in our company and how we armor up. And I said, great, then I'm going to talk to the people with the least formal power and ask them why armor is required here. Oh, geez. The vulnerable ones. Right.

I'm going to ask the people that don't look like everybody else that have the least proximity to power. I'm going to start there. And so I'm really only working with CEOs who say, ask anything you want of anyone you want. Oh, interesting. We need more strategic risk-taking. We need people to be braver. We need more collaboration. We need more productive challenge.

I can't have people on teams who are afraid to challenge their boss. So I'm like, great, then this is a good fit for me. So what I would say in general and what I see working across companies globally right now is if you are trying to create a business. a place, a culture. And it's interesting because the work that I do, you would think because that's where we start. We would measure culture. But actually, the first things that change when we go into a company, probably not surprising, but counterintuitive to some, is actually performance gets stronger.

Wow. When you create a workforce of people who feel seen and respected and heard, performance just Scott. And that's whether we're talking, I'm working with a soccer team or I'm working with a manufacturing company. It doesn't matter. When people feel seen, heard and believed, and trusted. Performance goes through the roof. Wow. You cannot stop people. Right. So, so I'm a hard, I'm not for everyone because we are going to talk about identity. We're going to talk about power. We're going to have all the conversations you're not supposed to be having right now in organizations. Because if you want to drive performance, we need to talk about that. Because let's say I'm leading a team and we're the AI adoption team. Right.

it will never work unless you trust me enough to productively challenge what I'm saying. If you say, hey, Branae, I'm really excited about what you're excited about. Based on the data I have, I don't think this is going to work. I'm like, okay, Trevor, go. What do you see that I don't see? But I have to believe that I can do that. You have to believe that you're respected and trusted and your opinion matters, and there won't be the moment where you're vulnerable, and then you'll pay for that later

with a promotion or a performance review. So what I always say about the people that I'm working with are these are normally CEOs who care more about winning than their ego. They are willing to have very hard conversations about identity, very hard conversations about power, the misuse of power. They really want to win on all fronts. And they believe that winning will require human beings who are respected and deeply connected. They're not playing not to lose.

They're not playing. That is the metaphor. They're not playing not to lose. And the hard thing is, even right now if we go into a really, a company that has a lot of success, it is the nature of the C-suite to see the flag planted on the top of the mountain and say, protect the flag. Yeah. Protect the success.

Protect the stock price. Protect the organic growth. Protect the revenue. What's interesting today is that mountain is crumbling from the bottom of it. So it is full of crap The fault lines are geopolitical instability Competition Market Change, AI

So you can protect that flag But as you're protecting it That mountain is just coming down and down and down So as a leader right now today The only choice you have Is to look for the next peak and go And you don't jump from the top of one mountain To the top of the next mountain

You jump from the top of one mountain To the side of the next mountain and you're holding on like this, and all the people you lead are tethered to you. And no one... You're taking them with you. And, I mean, let's just be honest. Like, I think y'all are smart, fun,

but I'm going to take my chances going alone if we have to leap. If you and I have to, if the three of us, for some reason, have to leap out this window, I'm going to be like, I hope I see y'all get on the pickleball court. But it actually doesn't work, Because if you're my team and the three of us don't make it together. The survivor is useless. Then the survival is useless.

So then we have to be like, oh, shit, man, we have five minutes. The three of us have to go together. How do we think we do it? Damn. You know, and no idea can be stupid. You're like, we find a giant crane and we swing from it. And then I can't say, shut the fuck up. I'm like, okay, what kind of crane?

And this is why, this is why I was hoping I could work this in. this is why you saw the world full of people crying and cheering for Artemis too. What we saw were four people from very different lived experiences who looked different, loving each other, kind to each other. Needing each other, needing each other, facing complex challenges together and winning. And definite uncertainty. defined by uncertainty. Yeah, 100%. That was a bad drug of it all.

That was the, yeah. And I'm lucky enough to have taken those four folks, along with all the earthbound astronauts at the time through Dare to Lead. Wow. And what I can tell you is when they're problem solving, if you're like, okay, we're on the 20th floor, we're going to have to go. We're going to have to get out the window and we're going to have to go.

And then we have to stay together. When you're staying at the table and there's thousands of engineers, that are involved in something like Artemis too, not just engineers, just... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When someone says, we build a giant crane

and we hang it from a cloud, no one says, dude, shut up. They're like, tell me about the crane. What's a crane made of? The guy goes, Legos. The woman goes, okay, Duplo or Lego Legos? Like, they are... It's trust.

They are willing to venture into the unknown. They are willing... Tell me more. Tell me more. Yeah. How does, what would happen if, yeah, what is that? Because then all of a sudden they go, okay, so let me play back, which is one of my favorite tools that we teach leaders. Let me play back what you're saying.

We're going to build a giant crane. Yes. It's going to be out of Legos at the bottom, but Duplo at the top. It's going to swing from a cloud, and it's going to grab the capsule and get it upright before the Navy can get there and get them out. Is that what you're saying? And you're like, that's what I think we could do. Okay. Don't we have something like that?

Don't we have a clown hook crane over in payload that we were working on a couple years ago? And the guy's, yeah. I mean, it's not a giant crane, but it does operate with a lever like a crane. Okay. So the playback. Because what happens a lot of times, especially in feedback, as I say to you, here's what I think is going wrong. I think you are doing incredible work.

You're saying yes to too much. And you're not able to deliver everything on time because you're saying yes across all these meetings. I want to help you set the right boundaries at the right time. And you're like, okay. And I said, no, no. Eugene, play back what you think you're hearing. And then you say, I'm an asshole. I'm going to get fired.

Because that's a lot of times what people will be here for long. Right. Okay. Okay. So what you heard me saying is if you carry on this way, you're not going to be here for long, right? So we need to do this again then. Because what I'm saying is you're doing excellent work.

You're taking on too much. It's not good for you. and there's no way you can deliver against those things. Play back again. You're doing too much, Eugene. You're carrying this podcast on your shoulders. Driven is to wear less sweaters. Wait, did you decide on the white t-shirt cardigan?

Can I tell you? Can I tell you my greatest joy in life? My greatest joy. You should come here often. Is when I'm wearing the same outfit as one of my friends? because they hate it. You don't know. I walked out of my apartment

and Eugene was there and I literally went I was like, Cardigan boys and his face dropped. You could see Eugene was like this, he just I get so happy.

I'll start singing to my friend sometimes like if I see them and we walk out and we're in the same thing and I'll be like, my best friend the best friends for em and they're just like I hate this with a passion.

You have no idea how this has messed up the algorithm because since we started shooting the season I was thinking I was monitoring the outfits I was like okay T-shirt jacket jacket shirt

t-shirt jacket jacket The algorithm yeah I knew so today I timed it properly He's trying to monitor my algorithm Yes there's an algorithm here for outfits and I was like okay

colors colors what are we going now a bit of top here brown brown okay now we're going earth colors and I was like okay so it's black

it kind of blue and a white a lot of vibrant and color and sweater is totally off of my algorithm. Then I was like, there's no way. This is that your normal fit? No, no way close.

Then I was like, I calculated properly. I was like, I know, I know. This is not going to happen. He's not going to be wearing anything that has a hint of blue and brightness on it. And why would he wear a jersey or a sweater after all of this time? Because he hasn't done it.

We've been, never. You know why you ended up here, Eugene? is because you were trying not to dress like me out of fear. And I got here because I was trying to dress out of love. You weren't walking towards your fit. You were walking away from his fit. And that's how we ended up here, my friend.

You did the plane back in real time. I hate you. You just invited me that. But I'm going to tell you, I'm going to confess something. I did when we sat down, I did try to see if you had a beaded bracelet on because I thought maybe y'all planned something. Oh, no.

Because he does. And I thought maybe that was cute, that you're like... Oh, I wish I had. Cardigan crew. But I would never do it on Puck, but I was just like... But I thought it was cute. I thought it was like Cardigan Crew magic. Yeah, we're doing deep.

We're doing deep. How do you have a jingle? I love it, actually. This has been, it's been amazing. This has been... Eugene's not wrong. You've got to come back. This is part one.

Oh, my God. This is just part one. Pinky Promise. This is part one. Part one. Walk on. Walk on with hope in your heart. And you'll never walk alone.

You'll never walk alone. I need to take a Vuvuzetta to Enfield. Just to test my membership. This was so much fun. Thank you, Brinney. For real. Shout out to Steve. Yeah.

Thanks. Shit. Water. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah. and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou.

Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?