What Now? with Trevor Noah - Don Lemon: The Cost of Candor

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

This week, Trevor and Eugene are joined by journalist Don Lemon for a very entertaining and wide-ranging conversation. Don opens up about his high-profile exit from CNN, getting arrested while reporting, and why, four months after his arrest, the government still won’t return his phone. From there, the trio dives into the decline of authenticity in modern media, the politics of identity and belonging, and why love is love is love. Along the way, they make plenty of room for humor, unpacking relationship dynamics, internet gossip, and a brutally honest review of the Kevin Hart roast. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Should I tell my age? If we walked in the streets together now, the three of us, I'm not even guessing up. If we walked together in the streets, people would not go while they with that old guy. No way. They would just be like your friend. They might even say your brother to me.

They'd be like, I think he's your brother. And I would go, I try to do your accent, but I can't. That is my brother. I don't know. Should I tell my age here? I don't know. You can tell your age. I'm 60.

I turned 60 this year. No way. Yeah. Don, you look good. Like, you look good, good. Like, I'm not a side, but I'm just saying, man. I would. I'm not aside, but Don, yo, you look good.

I'm married Trevor. Back off. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. I have a pitch for a business or a structure that we can implement in society where we find a way. Is it a business or is a structure that? know, I don't know, I don't know which one will work more effectively. That's what I'm saying, it's just a pitch.

But basically what we do is we get, we find a way to let everyone live in everyone's houses when they're not there. Listen, wait, you can't vote against them before I'm finished. You can't vote against it before I'm finished. So this is what I'm saying. Most of the time, our houses are all empty, everywhere in the world. Yes. Most, most abodes are empty.

Yes. Right. And most are not humble. Yes, that's true. But like, I just think there could be a way for us to figure out a system where, okay, because let's be honest, let's be honest. The main reason you don't want someone living in your house is why. Let's list a few reasons.

No, no, no, just give me the reasons. You're making this about our pet teams. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you guys rolling on this? Okay. I want to show you that this is well thought out. Okay, sharp.

Is this African on Africa crime? Pushed it for one of us. Can I just observe something? Can I jump in? Yeah, of course. Any time. So this is, what do you call it when, oh shit, when you, your accent is heavier now when you're speaking to him.

Definitely. Yeah. 100%. Your code switching is what people call it. Yeah, you're code switching. Yes. But if you're after two hours, we're going to talk to you. Because when you're on a daily show, you were talking like a white kind.

No, I'm kidding. And now you're like, Hey, man, hey, man. You know what's funny is actually, no, it's funny that you said that for the first... I don't think I forgot about your proposal. No, I'm going to get back to it. For the first...

He proposed to you? Six months to a year that I was on the daily show. Yeah. The amount of hate mail that we got because of my accent, Don't. No. It was... I felt like I had to go for elocution lessons.

People would say he can't... So there were... words that people just refused. So for instance, in South Africa, when we're referring to the plural of a woman, we say women. That's how we say it, women. Women. Okay. Right. Americans say, women. Women, exactly, as if it's not an O. Like, if it's W-E-M-E-N. Exactly. You said, like, it's W-E-M-E-N, so you say, like, women. And then in South Africa, we say, woman, the way it's written. Water? And then, I mean, that one, obviously, water. The reason we say it that way is because this is America, right? And people like to go, you know, I am not. There's only two genders. We men.

No. So like, so there was that one. What is the other way? What is that? It's too early. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. What is it? What is the other one I was saying? I mean, there's the obvious aluminum. And I don't know why aluminum was in the script so much. Things were happening in the American government with aluminum. You never had to say mirror. Mirra, I would say. Mirr. Yeah, mirror. I would. I wouldn't say mirror. I would say mirror and people go, this is, but it was a deluge, as they would say, of people complaining. Deluge. Deleuze. You see, deluge. Lots of water. Yo. Yeah.

And all they said, they would go, this person has no business replacing John Stewart's. And beyond just his terrible aptitude for American politics, he can't even speak. No way. Please deal with this. And then I would have to sit and try and, I was like, how do you say? say these words. What am I saying? What am I saying wrong? And so I, over time, I genuinely had to learn how to say some of the words in a way. But that happens naturally, I think. Yeah, but not when people are watching you. Those hate mailers are not natural. What was it like for you? When you,

when did you start? Because I mean, I just found out of Louisiana. That's like another language. So I lost my southern accent because I would listen to my voice all the time as a local reporter. You know, you'd be in the audio booth recording a track for a story and you hear your voice and you're like, I don't like the way that sounds. And so just now. it naturally corrected itself over time. And I felt like during the show that probably would have happened to you. But I never had an issue understanding you.

Honestly, in this no shade, the only accent, there are two accents I have an issue with, or that I can't understand, I don't have an issue with it. That it's hard for me to understand after really listen and they have to slow down.

Scottish. Scottish can be hard. Indian. So why did you say no shade to me? I'm neither Scottish or Indian. No, but I'm saying, we're just talking about accents, Eugene. Jesus.

Why are you so sensitive? You said no shade and you were like, Scottish and Indian. I meant no shade to the Scottish and the Indians to maybe watch. Let's be honest, you have often been referred to as the Scottish Indian or something. True. Yeah, but I have to like, I have to, it's got to slow down in order for me to understand it. It depends on, yeah, it depends on where.

I think like, so Glasgow, the Glasgowesian accent can be really tough. Those are from Glasgow. They're called Glasgow. Yeah. And then Edinburgh has a much softer one. Edinburgh. It's a lot easier to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you know. here. But Indian, isn't that easy for you?

They have a tendency to speak fast, right? In Scottish, right? And some Irish people, I'm like, if you're going too fast, I'm like, wait a minute, please say that again. And many times over the phone, if someone calls you in their Indian, I just say, you have to really, like, can you please slow down? I don't understand it. The second time they say it, you understand it. But. And then you're like, no, I don't know one spam calls. Thank you very much. Hang up, please. I do not want one because why is a random Indian person. I've never had a call. You've never. Yeah. Oh, in, so in, in in America, most.

of the spam calls will come from like India because that's where they've outsourced all of the call centers too. Yeah. We don't have it in South Africa from India. I did notice in your comedy special that I thought your accent was coming back or heavier than when you were on the show.

Well, thank you very much, Tom. But in a bad way, I mean, I like it. I appreciate that. I didn't think in a bad way until you just said, but you're in the bad way. I never know when you're, like, being sarcastic or... Until Don's day, but not in a bad way. I didn't think it was in a bad way.

You said, I noticed your accent is coming back, Trevor. And then I was like, thank you, Don, and you were, but not in a bad way. And I was like, in a bad way. I should have just said respectfully. You probably struggle with those accents because your ear is slow because you come from the south. I know I have a lazy tongue. I know my tongue is slow. Yeah.

You know that's a thing, right? So depending on where you're from. Is that what they call it? Is it? The drawl? Droll. Southern drawl. Southern drawl.

So when you go home, can you still do it? It just comes back. back. And then when I come back to New York, my husband will say, I can tell when you've been home, and I say, why? And he says, because listen to how you sound and you look bloated from all the freaking salty and bad food that you're eating. So I go and I gain 10 pounds and I end up saying, hey, instead of like, when I'm in New York or whatever, I'm like, Mom, what are you doing? And then I go home, I come back, I'm like, Mama. Mama, can you, I want some eggs, ma'am, please. And you just get that, you just, hey.

You got to do that. You should do, like, reports from home just to, like, give us, like, a different Don Lemon. Like, because now I'm picturing you need Don Lemon. Oh, yeah, that's right. You know, Don Lemon. My good friend, Don Lemon. Reporting live. Every once in a while it comes out and someone will make fun of it.

But every once in a while, I'll say something and, like, my husband Tim will go, y'all. You know what, Tim needs to stop. We need to talk to Tim. Yeah, because, I mean. All three of us here are people from the same. That's how you... And also, you know what I...

What freaks me out is, oh, actually doesn't freak me out. It makes me laugh. It's when we're back home. Yeah. And then white people hear Trevor speaking, Isizul. It freaks them out all the time.

Really? Freaks them out. I don't know why South African languages, people get thrown off. I guess, but I take for granted for many people in South Africa, at least for a generation, they only knew me from the Daily Show, ironically.

So... From South Africa. Because when I left South Africa, There's the generation that knew me from South Africa, doing comedy, doing shows, etc. I come to the US, I do the daily show. There's a whole new generation that grows up, only knowing me from the daily show.

So, like, I'll meet kids now who are, let's say, like, 24, somewhere there. And then when I speak Zulu or Toronto or anything, they go, where did you learn that? Where did I learn that? These are my languages. He's been with me. It's like when you see a black man speaking Chinese.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's literally that. It is literally that. What? Where does that come from? That's my favorite. That's my favorite thing. How honest can we be in this?

How, how candid can we be in this? Oh, a thousand go. I really miss you on the Daily Show. Like, really miss you. I don't know what happened, not my business. I felt like... What are you? You couldn't ask any questions.

I felt like, maybe I'm wrong. I felt like they undervalued what you brought to the Daily Show. No, no, no, no. I would have fought tooth and nail to keep you. No, no, no. No, honestly, they didn't. No, there was no. There was no fight.

There was no shade. There was no nothing. All that happened was. I had been doing the daily show. It was going on seven years, right? The thing that happened was, so there are a few ideas I have of life that are not congruent with how Americans run their businesses sometimes.

Right. Okay. So one of them is, I do not believe that everything has to go on forever. Right. I also believe that people should take breaks. I agree. In both directions, by the way.

I agree with both of those things. Right. So I think you should give an audience a break. And you should give staff a break and you should give. Like, I like that SNL, for instance, goes off for a few months. Right. I like that. I think it's good.

I like the TV shows go away and then come back. John Oliver takes like a few months off around December, January, comes back in February. I like that. And so my pitch was, hey, I love what we're doing here. But I'd just like to take more time. I want to get back home to South Africa. My accent is fading. People are noticing this.

I need my hair to grow out. Yeah, man, I want to like, you know, I still, there's aspects of my life that I miss. And they were like, no, man, the daily show has to happen the way it does everything. I was like, I think there's another way this could happen. And they were like, no. And then I was like, okay, it's fine. If you don't agree, then we don't agree. But there's no beef.

There's no fight. My contract is going to come to an end. So then let's just wrap it up. I understand. I didn't say there was a beef or a fight. No, no, but I would have given you what you want. If you needed some time off, I would have given you. And I would have, like, if they wanted, I would, yeah.

Because I really thought that you were really valuable in that position. but I also think you're valued and what you're doing now. I love what you're doing now. And I love how you've got a perm now in your hair. You actually have black hair, like as we say nappy.

Before you had good hair, what happened? What'd you do? Don, I'm sure you're from the start. Do you know her? Dole say, man, it was one of the funniest things. Because you didn't Dulceide,

I've done a few things together. But do say Sloan, we're at the Daily Shirt together. So, COVID happens. Nobody has a barber. I'm not going to risk trying to cut my own hair. My hair grows out. I realized I only cut my hair frequently because I had been...

Yeah, but also like I'd been forced into it in life. So in school... And in South Africa, we had this come up again recently. If you had white hair, you can sort of grow it the way you want. And professional hair stuff. If you had black hair, they called it unprofessional, they called it unkempt, they called it all these things. So in school we had to cut our hair if it was this.

So my whole life, cut the hair, cut the hair, cut the hair, cut the hair. It just becomes part of your life. COVID happens. My hair grows out. I was like, oh yeah, I like having hair. I miss this. I'm, yeah. I bumped my head.

It's not that bad. It's warmer, especially in New York. Let me tell you something. This is true. This in New York, life saver. Really? Yo, the amount of warmth. In winter?

Yeah. The amount of warmth? No, in summer. No, in summer, it's a liability. Bicycle helmet? Yeah. No, no, bra. This is a helmet.

What are you talking about? In the summer, this is what I do. My hair doesn't grow as long as yours, but in the winter I let my hair grow. Oh, you let it grow, and then it just gives you a little. The only reason that I ever really cut my hair was because I was on television. Otherwise, I don't care about hair.

I would rather just have it shaved, like, you know, very low or just let it grow out. But, you know. What about you? Do you miss being like, you know? I don't. You don't miss it? I do not miss it.

I know it sounds weird. I don't miss it. I did in the beginning. It was weird in the beginning because I was at the matrix of every big important story in the world. How many years were you at CNN? Almost 17 years. 17 years. Damn.

Yeah. And so it was weird. I was like, what do I do with my time? But I don't miss having to second guess. I don't know if you felt that way, maybe a little bit different because it was comedy. But you were actually educating people in the news. Of like second guessing, third guessing,

fourth guessing, everything that came out of my mouth, because I represented a brand and like 4,500 employees around the world. Interesting. Some of them in war zones, so I had to be careful about what I said. Now I can just say, fuck you or whatever it is.

It's been waiting. And, or whatever. I'll grow my hand, fuck you. Like today, as I was recording my show today, there was, you know, on the official Democratic Twitter account, the woman posted about Stephen Miller, shut up you ugly fuck.

And I got to talk about that and I said, yeah, Stephen Miller isn't an ugly fuck. Dang. Oh, you wouldn't have been able to say that? No. How would you have coveted it on CNN? What would you have said?

On CNN, I would have said. Unattractive fornicator. I would have said, what? Unattractive fornicator. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. What do you think you would have said?

Basically, I would have. handled it similarly to how I handled it today. Actually, it's not really about physical attractiveness, although, you know, it's also about the policies that he espouses and what he's putting into place and that, you know, him being Islamophobic. Yeah. His racism, his sexism, his treatment of immigrants, whatever. Those are ugly quality.

So, yeah, Stephen Miller. That does. Interesting. Shut up, you ugly fuck. Okay. Yeah. So, but I would not have said. diplomat, Don.

Yeah, he is. Yeah, but I would have said, you know, I'm going to talk about, I said, I'm going to talk about Stephen Miller and calling him that. Look, the Democratic Party can do what they want, but let me tell you why Stephen Miller is ugly. And I'm not talking about physically the way he looks. This is how he's ugly. And that would have done that on CNN. But ain't nobody doing that now because they scurred.

Yeah, everyone is scared, man. Except? Everyone is scared. Yeah. I saw the woman whose segment got pulled by CBS. They just didn't renew her contract. Sharon Al-Fonse. Yeah.

What did she do? She had a story on Seacott, just at Seacot, which is, I think, some place where their housing, immigrants and detainees and all that stuff at Seacot. And then they, the new boss came in, that was great grammar. The new boss came in and is MAGA-coded, the company and the folks who are running the company. and just pulled her segment saying,

we need to get a response from the White House and we need to do more reporting after it had already been vetted by everyone at 60 minutes. Like you don't get more vetting than 60 minutes. Yeah, you don't. So it was obvious what was happening. And she said, what is going on here? This has been vetted by, you know, this number of people

and it's gone through our process. And it's legit journalism. We all stand by it. And then they said, know, eventually they did, I think they ran it. I'm not sure if they ran it, but they ended up running it in foreign countries outside of the U.S. And then I guess they didn't, whoever's there, don't, they didn't realize that this is going to run somewhere else. Oh, wow.

And so, yeah, she's gone. Yeah, everyone, everyone is scared. Everybody's scared. What's disappointed me is it's equal parts scared and equal parts greed. You know what I mean? So we say that everyone's scared But I don't think it's only fair I think a lot of people

Are putting their greed Before the freedoms of the country Right and and A lot of these networks These news networks Whether it's CBS Whether it's all of them They're not just scared

They're also thinking about What they want to do business wise They want to acquire other companies They want mergers and acquisitions To go through They want So because they want that to happen They're not saying anything

but they should be saying something but they won't say something because they want their deals to go through so it's like it's half scared half creed I would argue the people on the ground like the actual reporters and the journalists

they're scared because they're going to get fired you know did you see this thing where they said they're gonna they actually they want to subpoena people's records and like your private because you know if you're a journalist you know it better than we do explain it

if you have a source you don't have to reveal your source right but now they're not Journalists have privileges. They have, you know, privileges like that. Yeah. I'm going through it right now, and I didn't even know about it. Wait, what?

Yeah. So when they, you know, they arrested me in California. Yes, what happened there? What exactly happened? Wow. But you were a gee about it though. You were like, thugged out. You're like, I'm, you didn't back down.

I thought you were gonna be like, eh, eh, and you're like, man, I'm going to be in, In, though. Don't who? Don Julio, I'm going in, though. You were not scared at all, Don? No. That was like...

It was a bit frustrating, but why would I be scared? I'm not scared of any. I'm scared of jail. I'm not even... You're scared of him. Hey, jail. Jail. Oh.

Jail? Yeah. But then I think about the people who did go to jail so that I could be able to sit here and do this. This is nothing. Compared to that, and look, I have agency, I have a platform, you know, I have resources that most people don't have. So if I became scared about what was happening, then what use am I to the people who really need me to not be scared? Hmm, I like that.

So what happened was I went to Minneapolis. Actually, I was on my way. I blamed Jesse Jackson. So I was on that. And I blamed Dr. King. So I had to go to Chicago because I was hosting the Dr. King breakfast sponsored by Jesse Jackson, the Rainbow Push in Chicago. So I was headed there.

And I started talking. I was in the kitchen. And Tim and I was saying, oh, you know, I got to go to Chicago, whatever. But Minneapolis is happening. He said, maybe you should make a stop over in Minneapolis. And I said, you know what, you're right? So I'm just going to go there in the morning and then I'll go a day earlier. I'll go there and then I'll fly straight to Chicago.

I'll just go there for a day and be on the ground. I was on the ground for less than six hours. or something like that. And so I just went to report on what was happening. And there was, you know, they were at this center where they keep all the people that they detain. And so, but it was too early. I got there early in the morning.

It was too early to go there. There's hardly anyone there. And I said, where am I going to go? What am I going to cover? And there were people saying, oh, this is happening. You should go cover this. And I said, okay, I'll go cover that. And what was the this?

It was this clandestine operation, like the civil rights movement, where they show up and they disrupt. Oh, God, it's okay. And so I showed up with them, and I was like, oh, they're going into this church. And I said, oh, we're not going to go and do anything until it happens because then when it happens,

it becomes news. Okay, got it, got it, got it. So I do that, go in there, report, do the thing. I had no connection to the people who were sponsoring this. I didn't know where we were going because we had to follow them. And then that was it. And then I started hearing things like,

oh, we're going to arrest him for disrupting, for going in and protesting and disrupting. a religious service. I'm like, I didn't do anything. I'm not a protester. I'm a journalist. And what if I had not been there to chronicle it for you, right? If something had, that's what we do. Journalists go where the news is. And I got a call from someone who, you know, has been doing this for a long time. And he said, you know what, Don, when John Miller, who was in charge of communications for the NYPD, and he was a reporter at one point, he said, when John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he didn't become a terrorist. He was still a journalist. So when I went into the church to report, I didn't become a protester.

I'm still a journalist. And somehow this administration doesn't understand that. Understand it or don't want it to happen? There you go. I don't want to understand, which I think is even more pernicious, right? So they were saying, oh, we're going to arrest him, they're going to do this. And they went to two or three, maybe three different sources

to get an arrest warrant for me, and it didn't work. So they went to a grand jury, which is just normal. everyday people and it's a secretive process. And so who knows what they presented to this grand jury in order to come up with an indictment for me. And so I was in LA covering the Grammys. I'd just come back from a Spotify party with the photographer who's here.

I blame him. His name is And he's like, we were at the party. Anders, Jesse Jackson and Doug the kid. Yes. We've got this list. Three. So Anders. Anders was like, hey, come on, one more, one more margarita.

One more margarita. And I was listening to Anders. Who was it the last person I saw? I forget who it was. I don't know. Oh, I don't know. My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. Kelly's.

No. It's a new group or whatever. Okay. Yeah. And so, anyways, so watching them, it was great. And then I go back. What? Catseye.

Cat's eye. Cat's eye. Okay. Cat's eye. Got it. So I get back to the hotel. I'm getting onto the elevator. And then I got bum rushed.

That's how it happened. That's how it happened. And I was like, what are you doing? They said, we're here to arrest. I said, where's the warrant? They didn't have one. They had to go outside. And as I'm scuffling, trying to get my bearings, they had to go outside, get the FBI agent. And he shows me a warrant on the phone, like a cop, a picture. And I was like, okay, I don't know what that means. But anyway, and so I ended up spending about 12 hours in custody. And I came out and did what you said. But you asked me what happened. That's what happened. And right now, they've had my phone for four months. They took my phone. They've had it for four months. Like speaking to you right now, they still have your phone. Oh, they still have my phone.

What do you think they're doing with it? They want to go through to find evidence. There's nothing there. But do they, did you give them the passwords? How does it work? Evidence of a conspiracy. No, they look. What do you mean they don't need it?

They don't need a password. Yes, they do need a password, but go on. They're going to have to use that software. I don't know if that software still works. That's what I'm saying. What is it? What is it? What is it called?

I don't remember. But remember there's a software. I think it was first developed in Israel and then it was like sent around the world or people had bought it or whatever. I'll give you an exclusive. Go. The higher iteration,

the newer iteration of the iPhone, the harder it is to get into it. They can't get into my phone. Well, there you go. Did they ask you for the password? They had to ask you. Did they try to make you look at your phone? I've always wondered if they don't have it.

No, but I'm saying because I'm saying like I wonder, because there's a weird thing I there's a if I understand American law correctly apparently they cannot force you to give them your password

they can ask you yeah but they but they still can't force you yeah but if it's fingerprint or face then you do have to do it I don't know about that I don't understand what the difference is I don't know about that

I'll look it up now I promise you I promise you look it up my man On your phone? I got you, brach you. On your iPhone? Don't even worry. What's your password? I got you.

I got you. I got you. I got you. There's something. Let me see. Why didn't you hold it up to your face? Yeah. No, it already unlocked when I looked at it.

I've got nothing to hide. Don't worry about it. You've got nothing to hide. Ha, me. The last thing I want is anyone taking my phone. What are they going to find? Eish. Oh.

Where's your phone? Eugene. In fact, you cannot get prosecuted. In fact, I'm even pitching. That's what I was going to say. I'm even pitching for penis portraits, as you call them. Or but shot. I don't judge.

I don't judge. I don't judge. I don't judge. I don't know who's the top and who's the bottom. And it's not my business. I don't care. Let's see here. I'll find it.

Or aside. You can be aside. You can be just actually done what we do to each other all the time. I know it sounds so bad. Is this what it sounds like when we? So why are you looking... Wait, did you say aside? Yeah, aside.

You don't know what aside is? No, I've never heard of that. It's just like there's no top or bottom. Yeah? That's a thing? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.

I knew there was top and bottom. I didn't know that there was a side. There's a side. Huh. Wait, you said aside does what? A side just kind of lays there on the side. Like you're, you know, or you take care of yourself or each other. Wow.

I would have gone with the middle. I don't know why they went with aside. It's called aside. But aside is a better name. Yeah. You know why it evokes an image in your head. Yeah. But I mean, if you have top, bottom, you want a side.

You don't want to be like in the middle. In between. I guess so. But that's what I would have thought. So why are you looking? Let me tell you the thing. So I did not realize it until yesterday that they had filed secretly a subpoena for my YouTube channel to get my subscribers and members or subscribers.

names, addresses, and phone numbers. And the judge said, no. Guys, what are we? This judge said no. Why would they want that? Either they want it to kill my business, to intimidate me, or to intimidate people who watch me.

It's crazy. Or to create a list. Did you find it? What are we doing? I found it. So the legality of compelled unlocking hinges on protections against unreasonable searches, Fourth Amendment,

and self-incrimination, Fifth Amendment. So pass codes and pins. The Fifth Amendment generally protects your testimonial acts. Okay. So courts across the country widely agree that the government cannot force you to hand over a passcode or a pin as doing so forces you to reveal the contents of your own mind. Right. All right.

That's the key thing. So you're testifying against yourself by giving your password. However, the law regarding biometric locks is highly fractured. Biometrics are generally treated as physical evidence like DNA, swabs or a lineup, meaning some courts have ruled that police can physically force you to unlock your phone using your face or your thumb. Yeah. Because they're saying that's not the contents of your mind.

You're not testifying against. It's essentially like putting your fingerprints down. I think you can fight that. Because I would say, I had to think about this. When I looked at the phone, I had to think about what. Depends on the court. Depends on the court. But it's literally, so remember when people were getting detained at the border, there was a moment

way it was like a real flare up. The message they gave everyone was, hey, make sure you don't have face ID and touch ID and everything on your phone. Make sure your phone just uses a passcode because they can't force you to give them a passcode. Interesting. So I was surprised that they didn't just be like, yo, Don, look here. Hey, Don.

Hey, Don, can I ask you a question? I don't think they even had a warrant yet when they took it. Damn, four months. So what have you, are there some people that you now haven't spoken to for four months and you're happy about it? That's a good one. Come on, right. What a great excuse to get people out of your life.

Absolutely. I wanted to get back to you. But do you know what happened to my phone? But it's true, that did happen. Because the phone is, what is it called, iOS. Yeah. And some of the text messages come through the iOS system rather than just your phone number. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I don't get every single text. I haven't gotten it. Sometimes I'll be sitting in front of the computer and something. I'm like, where did this come from? Exactly. India. Exactly. Nigeria.

Don't think we forgot, nah? The business idea. Okay, so my pitch was pretty simple. It's a really simple idea. Business or societal proposal. If our homes are as empty as they are. And not in like a negative way. It's just most people, you wake up in the morning, you leave the house to go to work.

You only come back in the evening. house was empty for the entire day. The main reason you don't want somebody in your home is because you think they're going to break things, change things, steal things, smell up the place, whatever it is. Use up your air conditioning. All of this, all of this. Smell up the place. But imagine if we could find a way to pair each other up with your perfect house partner,

someone who lives exactly like you, exactly like you. And there's got to be somebody because we're not that interesting or unique as people. There's got to be somebody who has the same vibes. Yeah, your lifestyle Tinder match. They use your colognes. They would sort of dress like you. You know what I mean? You, but you are not there.

Yes, you, but they work night shift. Opposite shift of you. Opposite shift of you. And so then whenever like you leave your house, they come in. They come in. And whenever you come back, they leave. And then you guys, you get to like help each other pay.

And then homes are not sitting empty. And you need less housing. Because right now we have a housing crisis. But if you think about it, most housing is sitting empty the whole day. and then you just have your perfect partner that's coming in. But if I have a girlfriend, do they talk to her while I'm not there? No, no, no, no.

What do we draw the line here? We'll have to figure this out, is what I'm saying. So you have to live alone. That sounds like pretty much every marriage I know is what you're saying. No, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's, there's, there's, there's, just stays in their house. Your girlfriend is not always just at your house. That's a, that's a, that's a, hey, hey, hey, is your girlfriend always at your house?

Hey, don't know. Are you, do, sometimes? Sometimes are you like, okay, I need a break. Do I say that, Trevor, that sometimes I need a break? But you know what? When you said people need a break, I do think that couples need a break that way. Need. Sometimes need.

Sometimes I'll go in the guest room and snooze and watch TV and sleep in there and maybe one of the dogs will follow me in. And I get a great nice thing. Actually, can I ask you a question, though? So how does your husband respond to this? At first, he was weird about it. And I said, but here's the thing, Trevor, it took me, I didn't get married until I was in my 50s. Wow.

So I had been. You're over 50. That's what I was saying, wow, too. No, no, Don. I'm being free. You need to come back home. Should I tell my age? If we walked in the streets together now, the three of us, I'm not even guessing up.

If we walked together in the streets, people would not go while they with that old guy. No way. They would just be like your friend. They might even say your brother to me. They'd be like, you were here with, I think he's, brother. And I would go, I try to do your accent, but I can't. That is my brother. I don't know. Should I tell my age here? I don't know. You can tell your age. I'm 60. I turn 60 to show. No way. Yeah.

Don, you look good. Thank you. Like you look good, good. Thank you. Like, I'm not a side, but I'm just saying, man. I would. I'm not aside, but Don, yo, you look good. I'm Mary Trevor. Back off. Thank you. I think I appreciate that. It's weird to say that because I don't feel that at all. No, no, no. You like the, don't worry about getting it.

You like the feral of broadcasters. How? I'm a feralcaster. What? Look at your skin. Look at your, like, everything. Not a stitch of makeup. That's one thing I do not miss about corporate.

The makeup was terrible. Oh, my God. The makeup was terrible. Cake. Isn't it? And you don't need it. It takes your skin, bro. Yeah.

So you tell your husband, like, look, after how many years of being together, that you say, I think sometimes you needed a timeout. I don't really say it. I need a time. I just go in the guest room. I'm like, ah, I need, I need. But the first time it happened, Don.

Oh, he's like, you're not sleeping in here with us? I'm like, I'm right next door, like, relax. And then I've said, I'm just going to go and watch TV for a little bit. And then you have to, like, ease in. And then I didn't. And sometimes I would wake up before he would, look up and go in. This is actually great. I'm taking notes for sure.

Wait, people that marry China and live together, they first start by dating, right? Yeah. They hang out and then sleepovers happen. Then stayovers happen. And the person goes, but I think I like having you around. Let's do this thing every day. How do we go from I'll see you on a Tuesday?

I'll see you the whole week. I'll see you the whole year to I think I need three days or two hours apart from me. I charge $130 an hour. Come on, don't. Let me tell you. I've had lots of therapy every week sometimes. How do you go from that? I think that's a choice.

And I think whatever works for whatever relationship that relationship you're in, I told him, I'm like, I'm not good with sleeping in the same bed with someone. I just, I don't sleep well. When you started dating or now when you're married? Always. And I just said I have been single for so long and able to walk into my house and just do if I want to like drop my underwear at the floor at the door. I don't do that. But I, you know, I was just alone for so long. I think I just got used to it.

Also, it's weird because I am a loner. People think like you're this, I'm this extrovert. I'm a sort of extrovert, introvert. I don't know what you call that. But I actually really love being by myself. And that doesn't mean I love my husband any less and I don't want to be married to him. But I love, I'm very content being alone.

People don't understand that. Then how did you make that transition then? Because if you like being alone, you don't mind your own company, this is the guy that you chose. You're like, let's do this thing. Whose idea was living together? Because there's always one person that goes, this would be nice. Every day.

Like, I love ice cream. every day my fee is going up to $150 I think he decided I mean we're like lesbians like the third date he like moved in it was like he had a moving truck

no he kind of decided I would come up and remember I worked nights and I would come home like after midnight because I worked late at CNN they had the 10 to usually midnight hour and first couple of times I'd come home

and he'd be on my couch I'm like oh hey all right And I was like, I guess I can't, you know, I guess it's us because what if I had invited somebody over? And I was like, how'd you get it? He goes, oh, the doorman. It was fine. I mean, because he had been coming over. The door man knew him or whatever.

And then he started bringing his laundry. I was like, I said, you really like me because I have a washer and dryer in my apartment in my condo, not because you, you know, really knew. That was a joke. But I think he decided that. And I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that. Someone has to decide. Someone has to make the move.

Yeah. Then at some point you're like, I think I'll be in the other room hanging out. Then he was like, but I... No, not all the time. Every once in a while. You know, like if someone goes on a business trip,

you're like, I get two days. It's true, though. Can you relate? Yeah, you know why. So if you are an introvert, one of the things people take for granted is that your battery is charged differently to an extroverts.

Right. So extroverts in broad strokes are people who gain. energy from being with other people. So the more they're with other people, the more energy they get, then the more people that come in, the more energy they get. So if you, if you're with an extrovert at a party, you'll see this. The more people who walk into the room, the more energy they get, the more energy they get,

they're more. And if you're an introvert, you'll notice the opposite. Yeah, you're like, ah, when the party only has like 10 people, you're good. 15, 20, 25, 30, 45, and then you're like, when are we going? Yeah. Okay, when are we, when are we going home? I'm ready, I'm ready. The extroverts like the party just started.

Yeah. So when you're an introverts, even if you are with your person, sometimes you just need to be by yourself to recharge. It's not about the other person. You just want to recharge yourself and then come back to being with other people. So I can completely relate to that. And you know what? It complicates it if you're in the public eye and you're an introvert because everyone,

people are like, oh, people assume. Oh my God. Hey, Don. Hi, hi, hi. Trevor. Hi. Hi. Hey, hi.

Can I get a picture? can we do a selfie? And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you get home, away from that, it's draining you the whole time. It's draining you the whole time. So then you're like, okay, I just want to sit on the couch. And if someone comes and sit next to you, it's okay. But then you want like, it would be great just to have my space so that I can.

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, we have to be on sometimes. Yes. We have to be on. What's a perfect match for the type of personalities that you guys described, an introvert, extrovert. What would be the perfect?

personality to be around. I think you adapt. It's not really a perfect personality. You just have to adapt. But because if you have someone, both of you are the same thing, I don't know, maybe that makes you closer or at least physically. But I don't know, I just think it's, I don't know if there's a person. Is your husband an extroverts?

It's weird. Yeah, I think he doesn't realize he's an extrovert. Yeah, he made friends with the doorman. Yeah. That's true actually. My husband is a little bit more sociable than I am, but I have a very very, very large group of friends that we hang out with in the city. And my friends have become his friends.

And so I find that he likes to entertain more. He likes to go to dinner. And I would be like, I'm like, Uber eats, seamless. Like, what are we going to do tonight? He takes me out. Eugene forces me to go out. That's what happened. A lot of my friends.

They were like, let's go to this party. I'm like, okay, I'll go. And look what happened. we got arrested. Look at what happened. I keep telling you, this is why we don't go outside. We're going to get arrested, bro.

Stay your ass at home. I keep telling you. All my extrovert friends, I'm like, where are we going? Where are we going? Eugene's like, come on. Are we ordering in again? Come on.

Let's eat out. It's you. It's Lawrence. Everyone, let's go out. Come on. That's how you go to jail, bro. If Nelson Mandela got Uber eats, he would have never went to Robin Island.

When did they catch Nelson Mandela? Where was Nelson Mandela? Driving outside. 27 years in prison. If that man got Uber eats, he would have been comfortable in his house. He wouldn't be going to the restaurant trying to find some sustenance.

I would be enjoying himself. Ah, what a great time I'm having. Ah, ha. That's prefer to gather. He'd be at home enjoying himself. 27 years, Eugene. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

Can I ask you something? Yeah. This is not my show. I'm going to ask you a question. Ask you, what do you mean? I'm joking. This is literally your show. Do whatever you want?

Do you miss being in corporate media. Not at all. Not at all. You were surprised that I said that too. No, no, no, no. I was surprised that you said you don't miss the, but then I think you answered my question when you followed up. What I was asking is, do you miss the job? I didn't even think of it as corporate media. I was asking if you missed the job. Because I think this applies to everyone, regardless of whether they were on TV or radio or,

you know, anything public facing. We take for granted how much. the thing we do slowly becomes who we think we are. Right? Someone, and people say this with such confidence. You go, hey, my name is Mike. Hi, Mike. Tell me about yourself. Well, I'm a doctor.

It's amazing how that's the first thing people lead with. I am what I do. You know? And then if you take that away from them, all of a sudden they don't have an I am anymore. And people will sometimes even lead with that. Hey, Mike, so tell me about yourself. Well, I used to be a doctor.

And you're like, wait, what do you mean? Why would you tell me about what you used? I used to be a kindergartner. I don't tell you that. You know what I mean? True. But it's interesting how we've really made what we do, who we are. And I think it's amplified when you're in the public eye because people see you as the job.

That's how they identify you. Exactly. So now when you're no longer doing that, they don't know how to place you. So they're like, Don Lemon. Yeah. So like, what are you? Yeah. What are you doing now?

Yeah. It's that. It's like a, it's because, and I understand it, people are not trying to be assholes. People are going, I only know you through your job. So if you do not have your job, I do not know how you exist anymore. That's right. Because you've never existed to me without the job. So I was just asking you if you miss the job itself, like the journalisming, but then, you know, as we continue talking, I realize you're still doing that. I'm still doing it. I'm basically doing the same thing, just with more freedom. Yeah. But talking, speaking of therapy, I had a lot of therapy in my life because I think it's really.

really good for you. Yeah. So I never thought that I was my job ever. That's the best place to be. Never thought that I was my job. And like you, I know that all things good or bad come to an end. And eventually we will come to an end.

See, that's the big one. So when that's over, if the universe has taken care of me for all these umpteenth years, why would I think that it's going to fail me moving forward? Yeah, there's the universe guy. You can talk to him. Yeah.

Why now? So I, look, is it, do I like, the way I was treated on my way out. Do I like the in just the, you know, sort of unfairness of it all? No. What happened to you on that? Because it happened so quickly and it seemed like

there was just craziness at sea. And what actually happened? It's the same thing that's happening to CBS and other networks now. We, they sold the company and the people who came in wanted to make room for more conservative voices. I don't have a problem with that,

but they wanted to make room for MAGA voices and people who came on who were insurrection deniers and election deniers and just coming on to lie. And I thought like, this is a journalistic organization. There is no, I don't believe in the false equivalency. There is no, there's no equivalence to someone who's coming on and giving you factual information about what's happening in the country and someone who you know is lying. Yeah. It's like saying that the election was stolen. Like that is not true. We all know that. So why are you giving this person so much room? Because I think that what journalism and journalists

is supposed to do is inform and educate and give facts. So we can still cover a story without giving someone a platform to just come on and directly lie to the American people like Donald Trump would do during his rallies during the first term and then people realize, okay, we can't do that because people start to believe it. So I believe that when you, if you have the privilege of going on to a CNN or any network or daily show, it is a privilege. It's not a right.

You don't have a right to go there. So you should respect the platform and the people enough to be honest with them and tell the truth. So anyway, they wanted to make more room and move the network to the right. And I don't believe news is right or left. It just is. And so I would challenge conservatives who came on the line. They did not like it. And so what I believe, in my opinion,

is that they were coming up with a predicate to get rid of me. So they moved me to the morning. So they came up with this idea. This is great for the mornings or whatever. And then from there, it just sort of, people think that I got fired for something that I said about Nikki Haley,

but that was not it. I had an interview with Vivek Ramoswami on the morning show. I didn't even know he's coming on. It was not my guest. It was like my co-ancher's guest. And I was like when they said, Vivek Romo Svani's coming. I'm like, okay, that's Poppy's guest.

I don't, not my business. And so he came on and he started lying about things. And I'm like sitting there going, black people got their rights because of the NRA, because the NRA fought for black people's rights during the Civil War. This is what he was saying? And I was like, bro. None of this shit is true.

And nobody was checking him. And I said, that is not true. And he goes, we have to be able to have these conversations. I said, yeah, if the conversation is true, you have to be honest on both sides. The NRA wasn't even around for the Civil War. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Four days later, I was gone. And then they rushed a press conference to announce Charles Barkley and Gail King's show

because they had gotten rid of their only black anchor and primetime anchor. You know what's always fascinated me is why, in a, America, the, like, let's call them, whatever people want to call them, you know, mainstream slash whatever organizations, why they always want to pander to a group that cares not to pander to them in any way, shape, or form. So I don't remember Fox News ever going on a binge where they were like, we need to get as many liberal people on this network as possible or Newsmax or any of them. And Fox is the most profitable, Fox is the most profitable news channel. But I don't understand it.

They've never once gone, we don't have enough of these voice. Let's get them on. Because it doesn't work. Yeah, but why does that happen? Because the people who own the companies think like that. They are right wing. Many of them are MAGA.

The ones who are buying the companies now are Donald Trump supporters. There was a Ellison who owns Paramar. Yeah, no, that makes sense. There was a Donald Trump appreciation dinner during the White House correspondent dinner. So they are very transparent about it. But yet on the other side, when you are central. or liberal, you're like, oh, I can't do that. It's a conflict of interest.

They don't give a shit about that. No, they don't. No, they're living their dream, I will say. I will say. But that's the thing I don't miss. So I think that's where, Eugene and I talk about this all the time. We are in an interesting age of media

where the structures that people have ordained for so long are going to fall apart because they don't present people with anything real anymore. it all feels like a facsimile of real. It feels like it's manufactured. It feels like it's manicured. It feels like it's put on. Yeah.

So you find yourself watching the news going, is this the news? Is this what's happening? Is this what's actually going on? You know what I mean? Yeah. And if you look at it through any lens, news, sports coverage, you know, documentaries,

whatever you, it's interesting. to see how the ones that are actually really experiencing growth are the ones that just feel authentic, whether or not you're for them is irrelevant. But the authenticity is what's. And that's what's driving independent media right now is the authenticity. But your facsimile is a very good word.

It's almost like Stepper-wise. That's exactly what it is. And you get mauled into it and you're like, and you just start watching it. That's exactly what. That's how I feel sometimes now when I'll watch in the occasions, the moments when I'll watch the news. The real news.

No, like, see, I'm saying the, of those. It'll be like, it's almost like, welcome. We're going to talk about a story now and we have one guest. Hello, what is happening? Many people have been killed. Oh, wow. Well, we have someone else who says the opposite. Many people have not been killed. Oh, what do you think they have been killed? What do you think they have not been killed? Well, that's all we have time for. Now have time for our next story. And you're sitting there going, wait, so what happened? Yeah, what happened? So what happened? Nothing. Or it's this. I can't stand you, fuck you, but I'm gonna, or you know, blah, blah. And it's like fighting around the table and you're like, what is being accomplished here?

I hate that. You're right. That's what's happening. It's just like, the authenticity is being in independent media or being an independent journalist. I don't miss that because before, you know, my show was a little bit different because I sort of relaxed. I was a last person. I was 10 o'clock at night. But no one has conversations like that.

No one sits around and cocktail dresses and suits with neckties on and they're like, now we're going to have a conversation right now Trevor yeah yeah yeah yeah how are you Eugene what do you think Eugene right but stand by almost answered you is stand by I'm going to know what I think

I'm going to bring someone in and we're going to have we're going to FaceTime with Rob Rob you are standing there in the bar that we were talking about these guys hey what's going on on Rob? Like who talks like that? Yeah. And so I think people, I think also COVID changed us. It actually did, man. Because people got used to seeing people in a natural environment and they're like, oh, I kind of like this. So I do my show from, I have like a little studio. I got rid of my dining room

tables just like this, where my dining room once was. And I was like, why don't I set it up in my dining room? And so that's where I do the show. And I come on. I'm like, hey, everybody, so glad you're with us today. what are we going to talk about? Okay. You do it COVID style. Yeah, and you just go, ah, what am I going to talk about? This guy needs to come back.

I could be doing this. We could talk about this, but this is what's on my mind right now. This was our topic, the whole of yesterday. You see what I'm talking about? The whole of yesterday is what we spoke about. There's no, the thing is that there is no,

I mean, I have a plan, but there is, I'm not trying to get anything out of it. I'm not trying to make sure that we keep an audience. making a show. Minute by minute. There's no agenda. The only agenda is to tell the truth and to engage with people. I know.

Yeah. This is a topic the whole day because we said, when people stop making a show, that's when the show gets made. That's it. You usually see it with car reviewers on YouTube. Yeah. When a manufacturer launches a certain model, it's all about the technical stuff, the car.

It's what they're selling you. But when a reviewer gets hold of it and says, I don't like this, but I love this, and I hate that, and I love that, that actually gets more traction and makes you go do I want the car or don't I want the car and with people like you

have authority and obviously experience in what you do when you sit down and go let's just figure it out together that makes the conversation much more interesting I agree

and the thing is there's one thing that I'm not a fan of being aside with independent media sorry you don't know where's my phone

can I get a hall pass I'm going to show his soul already something. You're lucky he doesn't have his phone, you two. Oh, Sindhide, Lapo. You were so close to Sindhilde. Don't head his phone. What I'm not a fan of is feeling like I have to sell something because we don't have large corporate sponsorships.

I would like to not have to go. And here's a word from our sponsors. I don't like that. That's not my favorite part. I swear it's like you. It's like you. You were there. We have to sell it.

But it's like you... I was having this comment literally yesterday, and I was saying this to Eugene, my friend Ryan, we're all hanging out there. And I said, this is what people don't even understand in politics right now.

One of the main reasons Donald Trump has done so well and continues to win people. I mean, now he's losing them because of... He always lose... It's funny. Trump always wins people with his rhetoric and loses people with his action.

elections. Yeah. Or with policy. The same thing happened during COVID. He wins the election. And then when you're like, when he has to run the country, people like, what is happening? And then it all goes down. And then he comes in with rhetoric, people love it.

When he actually runs the country, people like, this is terrible. But the thing people don't realize it is many politicians. He's authentic. He's not honest. There's a difference. Right, right. But he's authentic. He'll come out and he'll say to you, I'm supposed to read from the teleprompter.

There it is. I should read it. I should read it. Should you want me to read it? I don't want to read. I got to read it. They want me to read it. I could read it.

I could read, but I don't want to. Aceta, acetaminophant, finally. Yeah, but, boy, that's a tough word. That's a tough word. Can you say it? A lot of people can't say it. That thing. Authenticity.

Politicians, let's just call it, mainstream or legacy in any field, has taken for granted. how much authenticity has been stripped from our society. Amen. Oh, my God. And you know what? This is what happens. We live in cycles in life, right? Things will often start off as authentic. Once they achieve critical acclaim or success,

they then start to become parodies of themselves because they're trying to maintain what they now have. Yeah. Right? So you have like a dating show or you have like Survivor, let's say. I would argue like the first season of Survivor was the only like real season of Survivor. Because people didn't know what Survivor was supposed to be. It was like, what is this thing?

And then it was Richard, right? Remember the first like bad villainy guy who like, he was like, I'm just going to break it. Yeah, I'm going to break this game. Everyone else was trying to do the real thing. And Richard was like, no, I'm going to screw this over. But people watched that and then went, oh, that's what we need to do. And Survivor itself went.

This is what needs to be done. So now when you watch Survivor, people come in as a villain, but you're like, no, that's not authentic anymore. And so then what happens is... I didn't even know it's still on the air. Oh, yeah, it's still going strong. But it starts to become...

It doesn't have the cultural cachet that it once had. The same thing goes for dating shows. The first version of it will be authentic. People are like, what is that same thing? For reality shows, the first version is just a camera crew comes in your house. They start filming. You get comfortable

and you start having your real disputes, you have your, you know, like you even see like... You start living your life. The Hulk Hogan documentary. You see him saying, Hogan knows that. We didn't realize

how invasive this would be, but they were having real fights in front of the camera. With Linda, yeah. But now when people do a reality show, it's scripted. They even like, yeah, they stage the fights. Yeah. That strips away.

What starts happening? The next generation of authentic comes. So then you end up with like dating shows like pop the balloon. You know that pop the balloon show? Yeah, but why? Because it was so much more authentic. These people didn't look like they had done any media training.

Didn't give us any spiel. Someone just walked in and was just like, hey, my name's Brad. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. That's like bad for TV if you think about it. You'd be like, no, no, no, don't pop your balloons at the beginning. If that show had a show runner. Yes. It would say, don't.

They would be like, okay. Wait. And your story is this. Yes. And then you're going to pop a balloon when this happens. And you're going to pop a balloon when this. No. sometimes a person will walk in, not even speak.

Like none of these. Yeah. That's, and why do people love it? It's authentic. You know what I mean? And I think we take for granted how authenticity has been robbed of like we're yearning for it in society. Everything is produced, overly produced.

And you're right. And then the show of whatever it is becomes a parody of itself. There you go. Right. It becomes the SNL skit of itself. Yeah. Why do people, love hot wings on the internet.

It's not because celebrities are eating spicy hot wings. It's because them eating the hot wing is the one thing they can't fake now. Yeah, it's hard to lie. So if they go to a late night show and it's like, tell me about the time you went on vacation. Oh, I can't believe you asked me that story that I told

you about before we came out in front of the cameras. So what happened was give the person a spicy hot wing that they cannot tolerate. As we say back home, Bokul Bufédi-i. The cool is gone. You know what I mean? We saw Idris Albert choke.

This is like the greatest action star of our lifetime. And he's... But you know what happened? We loved him more after that. Yeah. We didn't go like, Ah, Idris can't be an action star. We're like, yo, we roll with you even harder now.

Let me tell you, people love a hot mess. And people would ask me, you know, and I don't know how you feel about Wendy Williams. Oh, yeah. Wendy Williams is the biggest win. And people loved her. How are you missed on... How are you doing?

People... She is messed up. missed on daytime television. Her show would, I believe, still be a success. Yes. And especially if, like, advertisers were afraid of her, you know, the O&O, you know, the stations around the country were afraid of her because they didn't know what she was going to say.

And, you know, people, oh, my God, like, with your accent. Well, he's just, she was so authentic. And that was her superpower. Yes. And I missed that on television. There's hardly any, if any television show or talk show that's like that. But can I tell you, here's the irony. And this is what most people don't realize, especially when a,

comes to media, the great irony is the cycle. Something becomes popular. Advertisers wish to partake in it. The advertisers want to partake in it because it's popular. When they partake in it, they now wish to put guardrails on it. Because they are worried about how they will be perceived. Not realizing that no one really cares. Nobody cares.

No one cares about a brand as much as a brand cares about a brand. They think the streets are like, oh, I saw your ad on that. No, no one really cares. is they start putting guardrails on the thing. They put so many guardrails that the thing loses all of its authenticity and popularity. It starts to dwindle. And then they pull out.

They go like, sorry, Don, it's not performing anymore. Yes. And you're like, you made me stop being me. And now the thing failed. And now you're pulling out. And they're like, yeah, sorry, we're going for this new thing. You know, people are loving it. Watch what's going to happen to it.

Just give it time. And they're so, you're right, they're so dumb. Like there was an advertiser who my sales guy called and said, you know, this advertiser is really nervous about your arrest and whatever. I said, how many more people are watching us because of that arrest? Like, nobody cares, but you. No one cares. And in this environment now, it used to be 15 minutes of fame.

It's 15 seconds. Oh, yeah. The news cycle, it's like a story goes in and then you're like, this is the biggest thing. And then Donald Trump tweets something. You're like, oh, forget about that. This is the biggest thing. By the way, now that you bring that up, Did you guys at CNN ever know that he was like playing you guys like puppets?

Did you ever figure it out at some point? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, because there was a thing. I think they, I think honestly, they maybe knew somewhere in the beginning, but it was good for business. Do you remember Les MoonVaz?

He goes, you know, Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for business. He did say that. Jeff Zucker said Donald Trump is many things, but one thing I'll tell you is he's a one-man ratings-wracking bull machine. Same with the, I think it was Roger Ayles. We called Trump. Like, yeah, why aren't you coming on the, when he, when Fox was fighting with Trump, Roger Ails was phoning Trump and he's like, yo, I know we beefing, but come on the show, man.

Let me tell you something. Donald Trump is a media genius. Genius. Yeah. I got a story about that. But I tell you, Jeff got hip to it really early. And then, but he never told us what to say we did not. The only thing that he would tell us is when we were doing interviews, when he allowed us to do interviews.

just let him talk and fact check him. You can ask him anything. It's all in the way you ask the question. So you can say, Trevor, what is wrong with your hair? Or you can go, Trevor, you have a really nice head of hair. What's going on? Did you change something? Very similar question, right?

Or you compliment him before. You were a marketing genius. Now, this one thing I don't understand because it didn't quite go over well with your supporters. What happened? Wow, you know. And then you're in. And then you're in. What's the story?

Morning glory. The story. Wait, what did you say again? What were you asking? We were talking about marketing genius. Oh, marketing genius. How I knew Donald Trump was going to win in 2016. Yeah.

This was back in the day when I got newspapers delivered to my door. Now everything's online. I prefer holding the newspaper, but then it becomes too much. So I would get the Washington Post, the New York Times. sometimes they would send me just for fun, the company, like the New York Post, all of it. So I opened these newspapers, and Donald Trump is on the front page.

And then I open the real estate section. Donald Trump is in the real estate section. Then I open the editorial section. There's Donald Trump. And then whatever. And I was like, oh, and I was like, well, where is Hillary Clinton? Right?

And I said, this man is going to win. And Tim said, why? I said, because he's everywhere. And he's sitting, who knows, in his bed, on a toilet or whatever, calling into morning shows. Right? He didn't come in.

He just calls in. Do you know why he did it like that? Because he got, he didn't have to go in, but he could talk to everybody. No, it's genius. Why? The reason Donald Trump did it like that is because he liked how it made him seem like the Wizard of Oz.

Oh, yeah. Oh. So when Donald Trump would phone into a news show, but wouldn't be there, all the people on the show would just have to, like, sit there. Yeah. And it has the same effect of speaking to this like omnipotent power. Right.

So they all sit on the couch. You see them on Fox all the time. They sit on the couch. Yeah. And they go, so Mr. President. Yes. Yes. So Mr. President, tell us.

And then you just, you just see the picture, his picture, that like smoldering picture of his. And then he just talks. And everyone just has to stay at the picture. And in those moments, you don't realize subconsciously. You are saying that this person is so important. They do not have to be here. But we. have to listen to everything they say.

Yeah. And he knew the power of it. That's something I never even thought about. Yeah, he knew the power. But he knew it on a media level. He's genius. But he knew the power of it. He also knew that he could be everywhere,

everything, everywhere all at once, right? He could be everywhere and on every show. And look, I think that they're, in modern history, in recent times, there's never been anyone more qualified to be president than Hillary Clinton, okay? However, I don't believe that whatever media strategy she has or strategist

that I think that they served her wrong because she would pick and choose and I'm gonna do this. And I'm like, you should be all over the place. What are you guys doing? Yeah, but so here's the thing to what Eugene said and what we were saying. When you stop trying to do the thing, that's when you will do the thing.

That's when you do the thing. Have you noticed how people in divorce will finally become themselves? It's only when people are breaking up with each other that they'll finally tell the other person the truth of who they are. all of a sudden you'll say I never like sleeping in the same bed

I just want to sleep in my own room and I don't want to go on vacations to this place and then the person goes wait when were you going to tell me this when you stop trying to do the thing ironically that's often when you'll do the thing is that what happened with Hillary Clinton? The same thing goes if you want to see

arguably the best just like politician qualified human go and watch Hillary Clinton's interviews after she had lost the election and it was like done. I think there's one she did on Howard Stern maybe or you go, where was this person? Yeah, I agree.

She is funny, smart, knowledgeable, throws the thing. She is fire. But you never saw that person on the campaign trail because, but this is like the gift and the curse I always think in life. I argue Donald Trump won the election because he,

He just, like the 2016 election, he won it because he's just, he was just this crazy, brash, take it to the limit person all the time. But that's also the reason he lost the next election is because he had, there's two different skills in life, right? The ability to be a revolutionary does not mean that you will have the ability to govern. The ability to run for office does not mean you'll have the ability to run in office. to run an office. Yeah, to run an office, thank you. And so that's what people don't get is like, to your point of Hillary being overqualified,

her measured nature, her thinking, all of those things are terrible for running. But part of that comes from, the rules are different for women. So she had to, right? So part of it comes from that. But if you see her in person, I don't know if she's been on your show.

Yeah, when she came to my show, yeah. And she's like, hey, Don, how are you? Fire. Yeah, yeah, another person. We've never seen that person. We saw her leaving the Kennedy Center one. There was a function of the Kennedy Center. And Tim and I were like, let's get out of here. And then she was coming around the other side.

She's like, let's get out of it. She bumped into us and she goes, I just want to go home and take my shoes off and eat my whatever Uber eats in bed. And we're like, where was that? Because, you know, people would have voted for that a million times. But I just, I think she probably felt that she couldn't do that. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. I think this goes beyond politics. I think in life, one of the greatest challenges you'll face as a human being

is knowing when your gift becomes your curse and knowing when your curse becomes your gift. I think of it through the lens of trauma all the time, right? Many of us in these worlds or anywhere can go back to a time in our lives when things were terrible. We might have had a tough time with our parents. We might have had a tough time in our families, in our communities. we can go back and think, man, I remember hating my life

or I remember wanting to escape. But then there's a moment where that curse becomes your gift makes you see the world differently. It makes you process information in a way that nobody else can. It makes you think faster than other people. You deal with situations. You know what I mean? Like when I think of my life, I'm one of the calmest people in chaos.

It's because my life was chaos. I get so calm in chaos and I've just quiet. And then Tim is a warrior. He's like, oh my gosh, whatever. The engagement on the shows, I'm like, Tim, it's all, it's fine. And like when I got arrested, I was like, okay. And then I kept thinking, I'm a journalist, so I'm going to, like, chronicle this and remember this in case I want to have to talk about it in court, or maybe I want to write a book about it.

And so I was just very calm, very calm, very calm. But now I would go, like, what was your life like when you were growing up? My life wasn't chaotic. I mean, I'm a, you know, Gen X. And so we did not have very much parental supervision. So I pretty much raised myself, kind of. You know, my grandmother was there, and they call it nanny now, but my grandmother was there, and she was like, she was our babysitter.

But then pretty much, like when I was, I think I was in junior high school, whatever, and we didn't need my grandmother. So my parents would go away, and my preteen sisters would be at home by ourselves. And so I would come home from school. My parents, both my parents worked, and so they call them latchkey kids. But the TV raised me. The Brady Bunch, you know, when... Limited channels and reruns.

It's the news to review, Zoom, on the floor alternating, butt cheeks. Yeah. And then at night, I watched a lot of television. I think Norman Lear kind of raised me. So my life wasn't very chaotic, but it wasn't as structured as I probably needed. at, you know, when I was growing up. But you see that, so that's what I'm saying is, without even knowing the details of it, I can go,

living in that type of life, most people would argue, as you said, is a little more chaotic. But that means you're going to be calm when there's chaos. But I also, I have to take care of myself at to rely on me. That's what I mean. Right. And so then as I got older, I'm like, I got to take care of myself, I got to rely on me.

This two shall pass. There you go. And or maybe something good is going to happen. Not maybe. Something good is going to happen out of every situation. there's something good that happens. But I think it's because I always had to rely on myself even from a very young age. I believe in the momentum of Rock Bottom.

I so believe in it. Because once things have gotten worse, I'm like, there's only one way now. In any situation, when the traffic gets really, really bad, I'm like, ha ha, it can't be like this forever. I've already experienced the worst of a thing. So I'm always looking out for those moments where else I feel like when I was younger, I used to avoid those moments of chaos, of feeling helpless or feeling stranded. Now when that happens, I'm like you have no idea how much of a jet propulsion that situation is. And I think we, from a generational point of view, we miss the chaos that we knew existed in how people were raising themselves, in how neighbors were involved and grandparents were involved.

And we stopped being those people to kids that we have and neighbors that we have because we kind of miss the drunk uncle. Yeah, we do. The drunk uncle was that guy. Yeah. You don't miss him? You also have one. No, I really missed the drunk uncle. The drunk uncle was the guy.

Oh. I had a drunk uncle, by the way, who used to drive. I would be in the back seat. He would drive drunk. And my mom said, you cannot go and get in the car with him because I said, you know, I won't say his name. But uncle, whatever. And I said, we went to such and such place. And I was in the back scene.

We were driving home. And I was like this all over the back seat. She goes, do not get in the car with him anymore. That was my drunk uncle. And I loved him. My drunk uncle, you should take me to a dice game. And then when things got hectic, you'll be like, hold the money. Damn.

Then I'll be there to pick going, yeah, if something happens, I'm gone here. But nothing ever happened, you know? And one day we witnessed the stabbing, but I still made it home. But we stopped being those people. There was always the drunk uncle, the successful aunt, the one who does this, the one who does that, the neighbor who got out and still comes back for family occasions. But we missed television the way we grew up making television. That's why when someone breaks away from traditional media

and goes into this new media, I'm the happiest person in the world seeing them do things the way they should be done. Because ultimately we recreating our childhood. We're recreating those TV moments. And I think that's why people are paying attention. And I feel sorry for this younger generation because they're just copying other copies.

We are actually doing radio the way we used to love listening to radio. But it's called a podcast now. Yeah. We hanging out the way we used to love hanging out because a stranger coming in while we're having a conversation there's never been a big deal.

Someone walking in is never going to be like, so what do you do? It will always be like, so he's crazy, that idea of people just coming into people's houses. Yeah, yeah. Actually, it's not a bad idea. That's exactly what we need. Look, you're right about that.

And speaking of me, we were talking about corporate media. Sometimes my friends who are in corporate media and they're starting podcast now and they'll invite me on their shows. And they're like, okay, what are we doing in segment two? And here's the script. And I'm like, what are we doing? Were you tapping our phones?

You were tapping our phones. This guy was tapping our phones. It's a TV podcast. This guy was tapping on. What did I say to you? This guy was tapping our phones. Exactly what he said. And the thing is, it's like, no.

It's like you come on like we did. And you go, hey, what's up? This guy was tapping our phones, Eugene. But they haven't figured it out because and they're in full makeup. This guy was tapping our phone. Full garb. And I'm like, why are you doing that? You want people to see you the other way.

Like I did a, I sometimes, I'll do like updates on my phone in my pajamas. I'm like do you want to tell Don what is the criteria for a guest on this podcast? Oh 100% are you hangable can we hang out with you? You think I'm hangable? Oh my gosh!

Don, come on. You like me. This guy. You're playing game. Don. That is that that is number one. Come on. This is the same guy. You know a person who's hangable is somebody who has range. This is somebody who has report on the most serious incidents happening in America and then somebody who got drunk

at New Year's Eve. I knew you were going to say that. On the ball was dropping. Relay, let me say, I don't even know. And you see like in that moment, genuinely, I remember liking you more. I went, this guy. He's my guy. Yeah, because, no, because it was, I was I was like, oh, he's a human being. Yeah. And you guess what? Now everybody's getting

drunk on New Year's Eve. They're like, you can't, what are you doing? I had people who call me and said, you have to maintain your stature as a journalist and especially a black man in this society. I'm like, it's fucking New Year's Eve. Nobody's talking policy. Everybody's sitting at home getting lit. And so why can't I?

And some of it is like you get into it. I'm not stumbling drunk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like a little bit like Dean Martin in the. Yeah, you're enjoying it. Yeah, you enjoy it. So, but. Yeah, but you see what I mean?

Now, because it was a success, because of how viral it went, because of everyone goes, would you like a- You're not trying to make a show. Would you like, but now people are going to try to get drunk on New Year's Eve when covering it for the news because they wish to recreate the same thing that happened.

It's, man, life is weird how you're like your gift will just be your curse. It'll just keep on coming back around. If it's not, as you said, authentic, authenticity. If it's not authentic to you, people will sniff it out immediately. Yeah. And they'll say, no. I don't dig this. We'll be right back after this.

I have a question for you, because I was thinking about this. I thought of it earlier and then it came back to me now. Do you think gay guys have more fun in relationships than straight guys? Absolutely. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm asking the other gay men at the table. He should know. I'm like the other gay men at the table, Eugene.

Please. Please. What? And Eugene. Why does it hurt so bad? Yes, Eugene. And someone else does it. We do it each other.

Being gay is not an insult. Eugene. I think it's a compliment. That means you're, you know, it means you smell good. It means you look good. It means you know what's happening. You're an overachiever. Got him. It means you wear a jean jacket with a black t-shirt and clear glasses. That's what it means.

No, but really, do you think? I'm not gay, but my podcast podcast. You need to. to leave. What were you saying? No, do I think they have better. Yes. Yeah.

Why do you think that is? Because I think that, you know, I think we have better things to worry about than some performative thing, um, about what marriage or relationship should be like. I actually, look, I'm in sort of a very heteronormative relationship now. We are monogamous, the whole, blah, blah, blah. But if we weren't, you know, nobody. So I don't judge couples who have open relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I mean, it's two men. Men are horny and fun, and they like to have fun. And also, it's not, sex is not an emotional thing for men. It's like, ah, yeah, that's right, it's okay. But a woman, it's like, oh, my gosh. You know what I mean, generally? Yes, yes. There are very few women who are like Samantha on sex in the city.

Well, it's actually funny. I think Esther Perel said it beautifully once. She said, we have a misconception that sex is not emotional for men. It's just the emotions happen at a different time for men than for women. That's true. So the sex is emotional for everybody, but it's more when the emotions present themselves that we're not so aware of. Were you gay your whole life?

Yeah. At a very early age, I knew that I was, but I didn't know quite what it meant sexually. But I also knew that it was something I had to hide. Because in the South as well? Oh, my gosh. Very religious family. Oh, my gosh, yeah. I mean, it's even worse in the South.

Look at what happened in the South now. It's a Bible Belt and all that in Louisiana, deep. South. You don't get much more southern than that. Yeah. So I always knew. I always knew it was something that I had to hide. And then the moment I stopped hiding it, that's when I became me, more authentic. When did you come out? I sort of came out to my friends and co-workers. So I was out with friends. My mom used to say, like, how do you guys, how do the gays find each other? Because she had never experienced so many, like, gay men openly, like, you know, in community. And so when she started to come into my circle.

And she's like, these are really great people. She goes, I think, I got to tell you, Don, I think that gay people are the smartest people in the world. And I just like, okay. And she said, your homes are beautiful, the way you dress, everybody's smart. Everybody has something interesting to say. That doesn't happen with us. Because I look at my friends and I go, what the hell?

Are you stupid? Would you say that? So anyways, I, you know, it was something that I had to hide until I didn't have to hide it. Were you, who were you most afraid of when you had to come out? Well, I came out, as I was saying, I came out to friends. I was out with friends. And then I left Louisiana because I knew that, you know, I had to leave in order to become me.

And also my journalism teacher at LSU told me I would never make it as a journalist. I'm like, okay, whatever. He was right. So I moved to New York City and I started, you know, dating people and coming out and the people at work, like, knew that I was gay. and then I started gaining success, and I moved around the country doing local news. In those markets, I was out to my friends, but I never talked about it openly, professionally. And then someone said, hey, what you're doing is great.

I think you have a book in you. You should write a book. And I started writing a book about my journeys in journalism and life and whatever. And I got to the part where I left Louisiana. And I'm like, oh, am I going to be the person who lies about it? about it, silent, because there is deception in silence. There's a certain deception in silence. And I said, if I'm going to be authentic,

and I have to have the same rules for myself that I have for the guests that come on, like they must be candid. And I said, I just wrote about it. It was like two or three pages in the book. It's like I had to move for this reason, and I needed to become myself. And I was a gay person, and at that point,

I knew that I could not do that in Louisiana. And so I moved to New York City. And I just wrote that. And then it became a huge thing. Back then, this was 2011. Things are different now. Yeah, yeah. That was a big deal.

I can only imagine. To have a news anchor on a major network like CNN come out, no one had done that. I think Rachel was out, but Rachel Madden, but she wasn't Rachel Madden. And how many black men had done that? Zero. I was like the first to come out among the first, if not the first. Did you lose anyone? Yeah, I lost that person that I was before who was afraid of coming out and afraid of losing their livelihood.

Damn, that's beautiful. So I lost that person, but everybody else, no, if I lost you because of that, fuck it, I didn't give a shit. Yeah. But that was a real thing because people would say, you know, there were rumors, but I never really talked about it. And then now I don't really care. And then it's hard for me to, in this day and age, I get it. But people who are in a safe place and who are not out, I'm like, okay, don't do that. But that's not my business.

It happens. What do you think people don't realize they're missing out on by not coming out? And not like, let's say, publicly writing a book about just, what do you think they're missing out on? I wish that we did not have to, you know, come out. Because human sexuality is so, you know, it is a spectrum. Yeah. And actually, that's a great question for you. So is it gay if somebody tries once?

No. Okay. When does it become gay? I'm asking for a friend. Well, why don't you ask him because you remember the other night when we hung out? I didn't want to, okay, should I tell him? You don't want me to tell him? You know what, it's fine.

No, I don't think that it's gay if you try. Look, I have been gay for a long time. And there are people I know that I have hooked up with who are now married with children, married two women. And I don't think that they're gay. I just think that they're horny or that they are human. And they did something. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay. Right. Look at what happens when people are in close quarters when they go to prison or whatever. They call it gay for the stay. Yeah. Because we have we have urges. And especially when you're younger, your hormones are going crazy. So no, I don't believe that. Nor do I believe that it should be judged.

I think if we were, we weren't so puritanical in this society and it wasn't so based on religion, which it shouldn't be, then we might have healthier people and we wouldn't judge. And a safer society. And a safer society. Yeah, the safer society is the biggest one. Trevor, look at, look at,

all you have to do is like scroll through your newsfeed and you look at all of the conservative people, the Christian people who get in trouble for doing weird things with kids or they're saying, oh, gays are the worst? And they end up being gay and they're on grinder. Who was the guy now with the boobs? The boob pictures. I like him more.

after that. I did actually. I liked him more. Brian Nome. Yes. Christy Nome's husband. Christy Nome's husband. What did you do? He was found on websites or dating sites. He liked big, he's like, that was a fetish for him. Yeah, he would, he would basically dress up sort of as a woman, but then put gigantic, giant massive boobs and then go talk to women also, I guess, with giant boobs.

And there was a whole thing. But he wasn't, I don't think he's gay. No, no, no, no, no. That's just a big boobs. That's his thing. That's his penchant. And that's just, I'm not judging. And that's his thing and that's fine. And it really is interesting how, not just interesting, it's also sad how many of these people are in power espousing one idea. And then they get exposed for literally living the life that they have condemned in the worst way possible. But then they don't, there isn't like a, like a redemption.

is maybe the wrong word, but I wish that would make them go like, hey, look, so I, yeah, I actually am a conservative and I am also this and I am. So we can be, do you get what I'm saying? They can't do that. Yeah, but I guess sometimes I think when you're in a position of power, authority, it's easier to live a lie because most of the things that you see when you're up there are a lie. Work hard, you'll get somewhere. You know, if you save your money, your money will earn interest. You know, you have to study and then you'll get a position. Then the person goes, nothing here is true. Nothing here is true.

So one lie from me is not going to make a big difference. But from what I'm hearing from Don is we must treat people who experiment the same way we treat people who put avocado on pizza. It might not belong there. Tell me, this is true. I'm going to get up at now. Oh, you don't like it when you. Are you an avocado toast person? No, I don't put avocado on pizza.

I don't know where that came. You don't? Avocado on pizza. Trevor I don't put ever Which pizza have I ever added avocado to? No, no, no, Eugene Daddy and Daddy are fighting

I'm uncomfortable Eugene, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Eugene, Eugene, Eugene. Juvani's? Eugene. Large pepperoni. Put avocado on pizza.

Ah, my friend. My friend, you can accuse me of many things. Gay? I will be gay on Epstein Island before I have put avocado on pizza, son. and to be clear there's nothing wrong with being gay something wrong with being on Epstein's Island

unless you were like working as like a cleaner or something and you didn't know what was happening because no one ever found that guy actually who was taking all those pictures now that we think about it who was developing the pictures and not saying anything so many questions was it like King Coz

who had King Coz was developing those pictures and not saying anything oh my gosh you guys joke about this a lot does it bother you that people think that you're gay me yeah not even in the slightest that's the last person that it bothers.

Not even in the... Because I sell the internet rumors. Trevor is gay. Not even in the slightest. We say to each other all that time. You're the only person that has ever said it. Ryan and Trevor and I say to each other all the time. You're being gay.

That's gay. There's nothing. So, okay, here's what it is for me. I am very lucky. I'll say this. I'm very lucky in that my mother, who was my primary caregiver growing up

had this and still has a very it's almost not progressive in the way she sees the world so my mom for instance never really got into labels you get what I'm saying my mom was very as she would say it tomboyish when she was growing up so my mom did you know she played sports and she was rough and she was this and she was da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-and-and-so

when my mom was when my mom was would meet like a gay or lesbian person, she almost treats it like you're just experiencing something in life. And she doesn't know how long that experience will be. It could be one year. It could be your whole life. She does not think of it as like your label and your conditioning or your anything. So she doesn't think of it as good or bad.

She just goes like, oh, that's okay. Like if she met you as Don and be like, oh, don't know. And then let's say it came out that you were gay like in a conversation. She'd be like, oh, wow. And how long are you? Oh, wow. and you're going to do it forever. Wow.

But she wouldn't treat it like it's a bad thing. She just be like, oh, damn, you're doing this. This is how you live your life. The same way she'll talk to somebody who's married, by the way. Does that make sense? Yeah. So if she talks to a married person, she'll also go, so you're, wow. And how long have you been married?

Wow. And you're going to be married your whole life. Wow. She just sees your decisions in life or your proclivities or the way you are as you. But I guess also, Tina, we were lucky because growing up, We're never exposed to shows content. What did you call him? What did you just say?

What did you call him? Tina. Oh, no, Tina means us. Oh, okay. Tina is a, yeah, there's a july word for us. I was like, I thought you called me Tina. Yeah, that would be told me. Donno is like, whoa.

Is that your drag name? You call it Tina. Hey, Don't thought that quick. Tina, what's going on here? Tina Noah. Tonight, performing at the Roxy. I am. I am.

I don't know. And enjoy. But by the way, when I told you, there's always a way to ask the question. Yes. I asked you if you were gay and in that question. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah.

He's good, this one. That is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, but you're saying... Have you ever thought about it? Well, eh. So I was saying that we, growing up, we missed that bus of stigmatizing people who are gay.

So we never, we never had those shows. We never had those movies where people who are gay are being victimized. Yeah, maybe for like, and I mean like us in a small circle. Yeah, just us. So we're not saying for everyone us. Tina, we use the word gay as a way of saying you don't want to do that. Yeah, it's not a, you don't want to ride a bicycle in the cold.

I don't want, nah, you be gay, where now? So it was, you understand what I mean? Yeah. It was never derogatory for us because we never. And, and when you see the history, maybe like in, in, you. York of how the gay community was being targeted and how they had to form little communities of dancing and doing makeup and doing shows and just being free with each other. You're like, oh, okay, if you grew up seeing that, you would understand that there was a

group of people who believed in a certain thing that were victimized by the rest of everyone. Right? Yes, but I understand that. 100%. But you understand it when I said being gay is not an insult. Yeah, absolutely. You're still using it as an insult. But we'll use it for everything.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm saying we'll even use other things as an insult. Yeah, yeah, don't even bet on us. We'll, we'll use... Everywhere. But we'll use anything as an insult. We can use like you being Khosa now. Does that make sense?

You being what? Kosa. So I'm Khasa, my family, my culture. So Khasa, Zulu, Tzonga, Zonga, except. But you can say that. Sometimes people will say, like, I'm a Shangan. Yes. If you're being colorful, you're being Shangan now.

If you're being stubborn, you're being Zulu now. So it's not the, the, the thing. If you avoid conflict, you are being... But you know what's interesting is the more you travel, the more you realize how, depending on how you view it, I think it's beautifully complicated these things can be. A simple example.

When I came to America, it was interesting to see how sensitive people got if you refer to their weight. Like if you said, you're fat or you've gained weight. It was like a... It's one of the biggest taboos. I'll tell you growing up in South Africa in most parts of Africa that I've been to my friends from the Middle East

will tell me this as well fat was like a compliment and if your grandparents said it to you they never said it in like a negative way they were like oh look at you, you're getting fat doing well yeah yeah and it was genuinely you're doing well more kids when I was growing up

were roasted for being skinny like that was oh my god nicknames sticks manzanzanza Skinny Malindi do you ever use the N-word Do you ever? Yeah.

Do they use the N word in Africa? Yeah, but again, no, but this is a perfect example. We used it and still use it because it was like the most aspirational thing that existed in our world. It's funny, we were chilling with Vic Mensa on the show. I love it.

And Vic was saying, whenever Africans use the N word, he's a little bit like, he's like, you guys are not saying it right. Yeah, yeah. He's like, the way you're saying, he's like, niga. I don't know. He's like, I'm with you, but.

You're saying it wrong. There's too many E's in the word. There's too many. But I genuinely find it beautiful because I, if you are, here's how I'll put it. I think social media has robbed us of the nuance of the concentric circles that our lives are lived within. There are things you will say with your husband that you would never say to somebody who's not your husband. And then we expand it. There's things you'd say to your family

that you would never say outside of your family. You expanded. There's things you'd say with your friends that you'd never say, you know what I mean? We've now made it seem like the words and phrases that we may use in our tiniest circles

are the things that we, Eugene and I would never say certain things to other people regardless of what the word is. Because we know, this is, no, you don't roll with us. You know what I mean? We wouldn't say anything. Shangan, we didn't say zonga

because we know it's a, derogatory terms sometimes to say shangana. There's just like, but do you ever feel like that? It's like we've robbed ourselves as people of the ability to know that something is wrong, but within the context of friendships and relationships has no malice attached to it. I'm glad you said that because I've been dying to when I knew that when you asked me to be on the show and then I saw this, I was like, oh, I got to ask Trevor about this. So you said that you know, you don't say things that you know are wrong or inappropriate

for that particular circle or what happened? I try my best not to you. Yeah. So the Kevin Hart roast? Yes. How did you feel about that? Man, I had too many feelings about the Kevin Hart roast. I think the first feeling I had was,

maybe I was naive or maybe roasts have changed, but like I didn't like that the roast was as written as it was for everyone. That's the first thing I'll say, right? Because in my opinion, a roast is supposed to be an opportunity for each person, to write the funniest expression of how they feel about another person.

And do their authentic brand of comedy. Yes, but even if it's not true, you're going, what are all the things I can roast Eugene about? What are all the things I can roast Don about? And they're not true, but these are things that come from my lens. I think I can make these things funny. And it comes from a place of love. That's what I think a good roast is supposed to be.

It's supposed to be people who know you, people who like you. And then you can, and there will be, be like edges on the dais because you might not know someone so you can shots can get fired in any direction. So that's like on a like on a comedy writing side. I was like, huh, it was weird when people like, let's scroll past that on the prompter and all the writers gave me that. And I was like, wait, what do we do it? Then why don't the writers just come and do this? Right. That's the first thought I had. The second feeling I had was it was just a weird one. I felt like it was weird that all the black comedians who came on stage told jokes about the people who were there.

But then a lot of the white comedians who came on told jokes about black people. Yes. I was like, wait, wait, I thought it was the roast of Kevin Hart. Say what you want about Cheryl Underwood. Say what you want about Regina. Say what you want about Naim or whoever's up there. But it was weird that like just, this was just like a black joke

that had nothing to do with a person. And then you could just, you're like, wait, George Floyd. The roast of black people. Yeah, but what does George Floyd have to? I don't even understand the connecting thread between George Floyd and Kevin Hart. You haven't shown me the connecting thread at all. I don't know. What did you feel?

Look, I'm all for a free speech. And comedy, I think that comedians should be given a wide berth. But the really good ones understand how to do it and there must be a there there there. I thought with some of those jokes, there's no there there there. Look, Kevin Hart, I'm a huge fan of Kevin Hart. I really admire what he's done business-wise. You know, so that's a whole other thing. But I thought that I was uncomfortable with some of the white comedians

who were making jokes about black people. I felt that it was just an excuse for them to be racist. That's what I mean. In public. And it wasn't funny or interesting. As a matter of fact, I didn't laugh until Jeff Ross came up. The whole beginning of the thing, I was like, this isn't funny why what's happening here and then Jeff Ross came on and like okay good and then

Chelsea Handling Chelsea's good and so then you know and then I thought Cheryl Underwood stole the show no show's phenomenal amazing just phenomenal yeah um but I just thought it was um you know if you're gonna tell a joke the very simple thing is that it has to be funny and I didn't find some of those things funny I found them insulting that's a roast but I didn't think that they were I thought they were inappropriate but do I think people should be canceled for it no I'm uncomfortable with it I don't think that they should be doing it. I'm not a fan of it, but you do you. So I'll disagree with you on one side.

I don't think anyone has the right to say anything is or isn't funny. As a comedian, I've always hated that. Whenever someone says, that wasn't funny, I'm like, no, no, no, I didn't find that funny. In the same way, some people don't think Korean food is nice, and some people don't think that Indian food is good and some people, that's your opinion and that's fine. But you cannot say it definitively is how I feel about anything that is a matter of haste, right?

There are many comedians who I don't find funny, but I would never say they are not funny. Because other people find them funny. Yeah, because it's, it's music, it's a joke, it's a painting, it's completely subjective. Sometimes I watch it and I go like, huh, I don't think that was funny, but I don't go, it wasn't funny. That's the first thing for me.

And I know it seems like semantics, but I think people... No, no, I understand what you're saying. I always think people should remember that not everything is for you and that's great, right? that's the only thing that I disagree with. The thing that got me, as I say, was I was going, I, because I love roasts, I just felt robbed because I felt like the roast wasn't about the people who were there.

Who were there. It was just like, you know? And then it was like, okay, like I'll give you an example. Here's a joke that I thought was, could be construed as racist, but I think was also extremely funny. Maybe I would have changed like one word. It was the joke when Shane Gillis said,

Kevin Hart is so short, they would have to lynch him from a bonsai tree. Yeah. Joke-wise, I think that's phenomenal. I think it's funny because of like, what it is doing in the joke is a very funny thing. Now, lynching is not funny. You know, slavery is not funny.

All these things are not funny, but that's not like the job. The job of comedy is funny in what's not funny. I think that joke gets marred by every other joke of the night that wasn't as good technically from every other person who's there,

not Shang Gillers. It's just like, but I'm like, yeah, but you know, Cat Williams I thought was amazing. I thought there were some jokes that everyone said they were amazing. So again, can I tell you what I loved most about the roast,

funny enough? If you asked me as trivia, you go like, what did you think about the roast? The thing I love most about it is that it made people feel something. The audience had a reaction, the people there. Even Shane would say, damn, this section is not with us at all. People responded to it.

Maybe I am, maybe I'm starved of authenticity so much that that's all I focused on. But I actually liked that people that were like. Yeah, look, I like that you as Don had a feeling about it. I felt the same way because like I said, I wouldn't cancel anybody for it. I think it created a conversation and I think it's good for people to be pissed off and not like things and you say I disagree with you.

Okay, great, we disagreed. That just means we don't like it to him. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I, it is what it is. So I feel the same way. I'm glad it happened

and it gave me something to talk about. It gave me content. But by no means, am I criticizing Kevin Hart or... Oh, yeah, no, no, no, we're not even saying that. But you know what I'm saying? No, no, completely. But that's why I say the great comedians for me.

Because Kat did it really well. If you watch cat's whole roast again, you can't tell if he believes it or doesn't believe it or, like he, for me, he executed a 10 out of 10 roast. He's brilliant. Because, A, it felt like everything was written by him. And B, it felt like everything was true from his point of view. He just said it in a funny way.

But he had a higher degree of difficulty because it had been beefing for so long. So, you know, he had that. I'm sure that was part of his thing. But Cheryl Underwood did the same for me. That was so good. When she came out and said, she said, I know your kind. You white boys, I know your kind and public you're all. But it's like, oh, you wish you could hit that.

Yeah. I wish you could. That to me is also, you know, like Eugene and I will talk about this all the time. Sometimes we, how can I put it? Let's go back to kids raising themselves. One of the things I'm sad about in today's world, is that we no longer leave kids alone on a playground to resolve their own disputes.

Or let them go ride their bikes all day. You don't do that. Because what we then do is as a society, if we are raised as kids who have parents in the playgrounds all the time, we become kids who call our parents when something is wrong all the time and we don't resolve our disputes. When you're just on the playground, sometimes you're going to fight, sometimes you'll punch the other person,

something they punch you, the headlock. Sometimes you just shout at each other. Sometimes you walk away crying, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you become best friends with that person. And I feel like that's necessary for a society to succeed. So for me, even in that world of the comedy, I think it's why Shane Gillis kept on saying, I phoned her, I phoned her and I asked her about these jokes.

Because the audience there was going, ah, ah, shame. And he's like, no, guys, I phoned Cheryl and he spoke about it afterwards. He even said on his podcast that he has with his friend, he said, man, he's like, he said, man, the jokes. for racist. He said it. He's like, oh man, there's some crazy racist joke. He's like, but I asked Cheryl about the ones about her husband, and she said she loved them,

but the people weren't involved, and now, it goes to the parents in a way. I'm like, sometimes it doesn't need to. As you were sitting, as you were talking about that, I think about the people who go on job interviews with their parents. Yeah? Wait, what are you talking about?

Kids, young people now go on, their parents will drive them to a job interview. My husband, who works in real estate, 30-year-old people who are looking for their first apartment or 20. Come with their parents. Their parents come and, yeah, and chaperone them. Yeah, we're going to lose. We're going to lose more than we think.

Yeah. I have another appointment. You're going? I have another appointment. You're going to come back then. No. No, no, I mean, like, you've got to come back. No, okay.

Just we'll do another one. You like me? You really like me? Yeah, Don. You think we'd like? This guy. We'd never do that to you. You think there's makeup here, Don.

Man, this was amazing. I love this. This was like genuinely, man. This is what a podcast should be. Music to my ears. But for real, man. Thank you for joining us. Can I be the third host someday?

There's no hosts here. There's just people at a table. If you feel like, yo, do you guys want to hang? Yeah. Do you ever put four people, five people, six people? No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no. You guys are not trisexuals.

Just not. I really enjoyed this. Don, this was amazing, though. You're the greatest one. Good to see you. Greatest. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions

in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaziamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening.

Join me next week for another episode of What Now.