What Now? with Trevor Noah - Dr. Jessica Knurick: Why Everything You Eat Feels Like a Trap, A Scientist’s Guide to Food Anxiety

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

This episode is a masterclass in navigating the confusing world of modern nutrition. Trevor and Eugene sit down with Dr. Jessica Knurick, a PhD in Nutrition Science and expert in chronic disease prevention, to debunk the most persistent health myths currently trending on social media. From protein to salt, seed oils to raw milk, they discuss the most persistent health myths we hear every day. If you’ve ever felt food anxiety while walking down a grocery aisle or wondered if fruit sugar is actually poisoning you, this deep dive into evidence-based health is a must-watch. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Wait, there's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that people always interact with, always have in their homes, that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm going to do a quick fire off, maybe a few. Then you tell me, yay or nay, and why they yay, right? Okay. So salt, is it a yay or nay? You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive.

It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably going to be my answer to all of these. So now there's a battle between Himalayan salt, they're just normal salt. Which one is good? Which one is bad? They're both fine. Marketing. Yeah. Sugar, good or bad?

Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar and fruit. And fruit is a wonderful food, right? So because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar. That's bad. And particularly, like, added sugar, like a soda, right? Because you're just drinking sugar with no nutrients at all.

So that's kind of what you want to stay away from or limit. versus just thinking sugar itself is bad. White sugar or brown sugar? Which one is the best? They're the same. Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthy. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time and I'd be like,

Mom, look, I'm being healthy. No. And then she'd throw carrots at my head. This is What Now with Trevinole. Dr. Jessica, wait, you know what's funny? We were all debating how to say the name. I thought it was Knerick, and then someone else was like Nurek. Nurek.

Which one is it? It's closer to the second one. It's Nurek. It is NERC. Yeah. The K is silent like knife. I don't like silent letters. I'm not going to lie.

I'm just going to put it out there. Your name can be your name. I just don't think this is cool for people. Because it's like your name is like a trap. It's a made-up name. Imagine if I was like, I'm Trevor Noah. And then they're like, no, no, no, no, A-H. I mean, the H is kind of silent, isn't it?

The Noah? Noah. Noah. You caught me. You have a silent letter too. I do, I do. Eugene Kosa. No, you know.

No, there's nothing silent about K. Because you have to say the H properly. Knife. Kniife? Like knife. Knife. Knife. No, no, I'm just thinking about, I've never really thought that the K in.

knife was silent. It is silent. Knife. I like Knife. Not. There's a lot of silent K's. I like the Knaife. Yeah.

K's are lazy letters in words. Yeah, they're lazy. That's true. They really are. They don't pull their weight at all. Well, at the start of a word at least. Yes. Whenever other letters are having a convention, then they're like,

ah, here comes K. Oh, goodness. Shh. Hey, Kay. What are you going to do your job today? It's hey to you. This is not why we. brought you on. We're not going to just talk about letters and...

I'm not a linguist, I have to tell you. But you are an expert, which I do appreciate. Actually, like, I know when you read it out, it's, you know, it's like you've got PhD nutritionist, how would you describe what you're an expert in? Like, what do you do? What are your qualifications? I have a PhD in nutrition science, but my research focus was really in chronic disease prevention. So looking at like all of the different areas that could potentially prevent chronic disease. And mainly lifestyle-related chronic disease, like type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease, like cardiomatabolic disease. Okay, so help us break down the difference between lifestyle chronic diseases versus what is like a non-lifestyle chronic disease? Yeah, I mean,

lifestyle-related are just things that we know, we have pretty good evidence, that like, lifestyle-related habits or behaviors are actually impacting your disease risk. So there are some like chronic diseases that we don't necessarily know that. We don't know, like, how much which behavior is, or, like, lifestyle is actually impacting it. Like, is there an example? Give me an example. Just I can wrap my head around it. I'm trying because you said type 2 diabetes would be more lifestyle. Yeah. Okay. And then type one, I guess, no. Type 1, no. Okay. So that's just, it might just be hereditary. Yeah, like an autoimmune type of response. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. A lot of hereditary factors.

Right. Yeah. So you're the, potentially other like environmental factors. We just don't know. as well. So some we know for certain, or there's a lot of research to suggest it. Yeah, and it's also that like you could potentially prevent the chronic disease with lifestyle change. Got it. Yeah. I love the world that you're in. You know, we're chatting to the team. I, I feel like you are one of the bright spots of social media, you know? And Eugene and I were chatting about this the other day and we're saying like, I'm not going to take credit for it because you said it. Yeah, because Jessica, things that happen in our friendships with taking credit.

These disclaimers need to happen more often. I'm not going to take credit because you said it. But Eugene said something very valuable. He said, you know, we can always jump to try and like vilify social media and we can look at the bad and we can, you know what I mean? But we also forget that there's a good side

of what's happening on social media. There's also a good side of what happens on TV, etc. And I was like, man, Eugene, I feel you, man. I feel you. Class stuff for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I feel like you're one of those bright spots, an expert on social media, breaking down the most complicated topics for everyone to fully understand. Thank you. I appreciate that. No, we thank you.

No, genuinely, we do. I love how you got into it as well. You know what I mean? It's like one minute you're the scientist who's like really working on like the, what do they call it again? You write the research papers and the. Like a grant? She's a sketchy pad? No, no.

You're not my friend. Friends would help. No, the academia more. Yes, the academia, you know what I mean? And then now it feels like you're, you've bridged the gap between the information and the people who need the information. Maybe we start in that. Like, why, what made you think, you know what, I need to get involved in getting this information directly to people and not just keeping it in the world of expertise. Yeah, I've kind of, I've kind of talked about this before that, um, for a very long time, it was very,

really frowned upon for academics to go on social media. So it was looked down upon. I first went to social media actually back in 2016. My little brother was like, you should get on this new app. It was like Twitter's like version of a video app. And so I was teaching nutrition courses at a university at the time. And I was like, you know, I could teach on this app. I'll just like, whatever my lesson is that day, I'll go teach it on the app. So that's what I did. And I like built up this little following within a few months, and I got a lot of pushback from colleagues and from former colleagues. And, you know, I was a brand new tenure track professor, and I didn't want to, like, put my career in jeopardy. And so when that happened, and, you know, people were making fun of me,

like, how's your vlog doing? Oh, damn. And that was a really common occurrence. It was just not a space that, like, we were supposed to be in. And so I got off, and I was off for years and years after that. And I've talked to lots of other, like, academics and even, like, medical doctors, and they all feel very similarly. Like it just, it was really frowned upon for us to go to social media. And unfortunately, that's where people go for better or worse for their information. And so we lost a lot of ground for many years, not going to spaces where people went for information. And so that's what really initially, well, I guess the second time brought me to social media was I was pregnant with my son. No, I was pregnant with my son in 2019 and then my daughter in 2022. And between those

times, for whatever reason, I think it was after COVID. It was also. So, like, TikTok had come out. And I just started seeing way more misinformation than I had seen the first time around and, like, getting targeted with it in my algorithm. And so that's, I was like, well, that's not correct. And, like, I felt kind of an obligation to protect that particular demographic because, like, we're quite vulnerable at that life stage when we have young kids or we're pregnant.

And so I just went on and started correcting kind of, like, nutrition misinformation in the pregnancy space. And then, you know, my content has shifted much more so. in the last year or so after last summer when I saw a lot of you know this like movement happening in public health and nutrition it just happened to be like my exact area of focus the last 15 years and so I was able to really see the manipulation that was happening with the narrative and I decided to just start correcting some of the misinformation and so that's kind of like what brought me to to hear where I am now sitting with you Trevor do you guys need a moment

We always have this debate about social media and we're thinking there's a pushback in trying to find, not even a pushback, maybe a U-turn in how we experience social media now. People are trying to look for the bad, but it seems like you found the good. What is the good that it's in social media right now that people can go look for? Well, I think that there's a lot of good content out there. You just have to sort through it and sift through it, right? So like sifting through the bad. But, I mean, social media gives you the opportunity to learn from people you, never really would have been able to learn from before, right?

Like, if I have, like, a question about some sort of, like, beauty product, there's, like, so many dermatologists out there, a cosmetic chemist, just, like, creating content about it. And I'm like, this is wonderful. So I think that's a great part about it. If you can find people giving credible information, I think it could be a great source of information. How do you figure out who the credible person is, though? Yeah.

That's, like, the biggest obstacle for me is, you know, when I, when my friend sent me your videos at first. I was like, this is amazing. And then the second thing I always have to tell myself is I go, like, is it amazing because I want to believe it? Because I'm not an expert. So how do I know this is the right thing? And that becomes like the ultimate paradigm, paradox, rather, online is you get it from an expert so you think it's real. And then you go, wait, how do I know this person is an expert? Because everyone's a doctor. You know, Dr. Oz, doctor. And then if Dr. Oz says it, yeah, no, do you know what I mean? Like people just doctor, everyone, doctor, doctor, doctor. like how did you

was there a moment when people were like who are you to say this I'm sure people even say that's you now in some way I'm sure there's some people who go like you're the scam you're the fake person yeah people are always going to do that right did you just say that what do you mean

this is how you feel no I'm that's not how I feel I said that I'm so much conviction in your eyes because I channeled the comments section maybe let me ask Jessica the question okay you ask the question Dr Jessica do you find that sometimes on social media people look at you

and think perhaps maybe you're the scam. That was actually better. That was better. That was better. I think that yes. I think that if, you know, if I'm saying something that like somebody doesn't like, it's very easy to write somebody off just saying like, you're a scam or whatever it is. I think there's a couple of things you can look for. This is not full proof, but like some things to like identify if somebody is giving accurate information, they tend

to not be super sensational. So which plays really well into the algorithm, right? So a lot of times in my space, if it's like nutrition misinformation, they'll scare you at the front of the video, right? They'll scare you about like if you're poisoning your children or if you're consuming toxins. Experts don't generally talk like that. Like genuine people who are trying to educate are not going to scare you. They're going to explain the nuance. So if there's some sort of inflammatory claim at the front, that's kind of a red flag. And then particularly then if they walk you through kind of why it's why that's so toxic or whatever it is and then try to sell you something at the very end. Generally, those are some like good red flags. I'm not saying that's all

always the case, but that's just something to like keep in mind. Maybe this is not, maybe this information, you know, has an ulterior motive to try to get me to purchase their whatever it is at the end. So I think kind of being aware of that. And then again, really sensationalized information is generally not how like experts talk. That feels like the crux of the RFK Maha movement, make America healthy again, which by the way is a great start. spotting point, who doesn't want America to be healthy? No one. You know what I'm saying?

Well, some people, that's. You know what I mean? But it's like, yeah, who doesn't want America to be healthy? And then they go like, hey, you know, the foods that we're giving our kids and the, one of the things I noticed about, you know, somebody like RFK and the people around him is they're often really good at identifying real problems. They're not lying about the problems. And so they rope you in by saying, hey, kids are unhealthy.

and kids are not getting good food in schools. And, you know, the pharmaceutical industry might not have your best. And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to your point, it flips and then they sell you something. Yeah, I mean, it's great because, you know, if you identify a correct problem that, like, we all care about and then you see somebody kind of countering some of the, like, misinformation that's being spread, it's very easy for those people to be like, why don't you want America to be healthy?

People will ask me that sometimes. And it's like, wait, no, I want America to be healthy. That's why I'm talking about this. But I think it's like a brilliant kind of like propaganda tool to do. It's the snake oil salesman handbook. That's what it is. You come in, you identify the problem, and then you go, I immediately can cure this thing with my snake oil. Yeah.

But I also feel like with nutrition, it gets very tricky sometimes. You know, growing up, there were those ads that would be like open your cupboard right now, your food pantry, open your fridge right now. Everything in there that you see is wrong. Then there will be like fresh fruits and vegetables. You must eat this and eat that. But now later on in life, you get to hear so much sugar in fruit, so much sugar in this, so much sugar and that. Don't drink fruit juice.

It's not good for you. It feels like the messages have been confused. Actually, what is the truth around that? Fruit good, fruit bad? Fruit good. Oh, fruit juice? Yeah. Well, fruit juice is different than fruit because fruit itself has a lot of fiber in it.

Fruit juice kind of strips out the fiber. So fruit juice essentially has a lot of sugar and not a lot of. lot of the fiber that real fruit has. And so those are differences in terms of like their metabolic impact on you. So we don't have a problem eating too much fruit in this country. Like there's, we actually, most of us, almost 90% of us, don't meet fruit intake guidelines. So the benefits of eating fruit, which is like all of the micronutrients and polyphenols and antioxidants and all of that and the fiber far outweigh any problems that we would see with like the sugar, because the sugar's packaged within the fruit. So it's.

different than just like drinking a soda, for example, which doesn't have any of that. It's just the sugar. I can eat half a watermelon. Yeah. In one sitting. Same. That's a lot. Same.

Okay. Does that give you GI issues? Yeah. Do you feel itchy somewhere? Because that's GI. I don't think that's GI. Oh. I'm glad we've got an expert here.

I don't think GI has. G.I. is like gastrointestinal. No. it doesn't I've never had any problems actually like how much how do you know if you if you're having too much fruits hmm I mean I don't know that there's like a specific symptom or sign you know if you're having too much fruit and again like too much is going to be very individual right so we when we make recommendations like two to three servings of fruit a day like those recommendations are just for the general population but someone else might be able to

tolerate much more than that versus somebody else I'm someone else. Okay, so I'm exceptional. You might have an exceptional fruit tolerance. I have an exceptional fruit tolerance. Specifically watermelon. Yes, watermelon. I love watermelon. I mean, how can you not love watermelon? You know, the greatest scam ever committed? Is eating it shirtless? No.

Oh. But I'm into it. You must try. I've never thought of that. Spots gone. Wow. Just use a sticky chest. Damn. Then shower straight after. No, what I was going to say was like the craziest thing, the worst thing that ever happened was like, when I came to America and then I discovered like here, watermelon had like racist connotations.

Then I was like, what? And they were like, oh, black people love watermelon. And I was like, yeah. They're like, you love it. And I was like, yeah. And they're like, no, but you love it. Yes, yes, yes. I was like, yeah.

Where does that come from? Ah, man, it's all like. Jessica, do you know? I have a nutritionist. So if I know, if I remember, if I remember correctly, there was like a whole, there was a whole thing around it. Ryan, you'll probably know this. But like, there was like a whole, um, originally it didn't

have any racist connotations or anything, but as black people in America were choosing their foods and were making them and we're enjoying them, then racist groups were like, we've got to find ways to poke fun at them. And so they became the stereotyped. Fried chicken was one of them. But here's the thing. Yeah, black people like fried chicken. But you know who else likes fried chicken? White people. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You can't sustain an entire industry just with the black people in America. I trusted you more when you said white people. I was like, she missed the criteria yeah and she's a nutritionist. My family loves

pro chicken. Yeah, thank you. You see, we have just there we go. Oh, so there was this okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, and then they just made it the thing. But there was also something around like the farming of it. Like if I remember correctly, I mean, we'll fact check this but I think there was a story around

like black farmers post slavery started growing a lot of watermelon themselves. Yeah. And it was one of the crops that were easiest to grow. And so they were once they were like, because they had farming experience unfortunately and then they were like

we're going to grow watermelon and it became like a crop that they were using and they were making a lot of money from and then there were just racist people who were like we got to shut down this watermelon vibe and so to make it distasteful to others funny enough like sort of like it was another you know

scammy thing before social media they went well you know what watermelon means you know where it comes from and then that's where the stereotype sort of like gains its footing I always feel like in any industry there's always corporations getting involved and trying to take people off eating fruit and vegetables that are fresh and going for the packaged foods. Do you find that in urban areas and in cities and in first world countries mostly

fresh fruit and vegetables are very expensive and unattainable for most people? Yeah, they're certainly more expensive relative to when we're looking at like the caloric density, so how many calories are actually in the food. They're certainly more expensive than these packaged foods. A lot of that is because of the policies that we've enacted in this country. And particularly kind of like zoning laws that have created these what we term food deserts in a lot of the urban areas where they literally don't have access, like easy access to a grocery store with fresh fruits of vegetables. So they're going to dollar stores and they're going to gas stations for a lot of their groceries. And so, you know, what we might take for granted going to a grocery store, like I live in

the suburbs, there's like five grocery stores within a close proximity. A lot of people don't have that. And so they have to take like, you know, multiple buses to get to a grocery store. And then they don't have transportation, so they're carrying all of that home. And it just, the barriers of access are much higher. So it's not even just cost. It's also just accessibility of fresh fruits and vegetables. And so what happens then is people are heavily reliance on pre-packaged foods, much more so they're more accessible. They have longer shelf lives. Just think fruits and vegetables go bad after a few days. And if you don't, you know, prepare them, then you have to go back and do that whole thing again to try to get access to them. So yeah, that is a big problem in our

our country. I mean, millions of Americans live in these food deserts that don't have easy access to fresh fruits and vegetables. How do we think of ultra-processed foods? Because depending on where you look, they'll tell you they give you cancer. They're causing obesity. You shouldn't eat any of them. Some people like, oh, it's in moderation. Some people are like, no, they're completely fine. What's your view on ultra-processed foods? And I know that's a broad term. Yeah, we should define it. Yeah, let's define it. So there's not a great definition for it, which is why HHS right now has kind of an RFI out to, like, a request for information to figure out, like, what is a good definition for ultra-process foods? Because they do a lot of talking

about ultra-process foods, but we don't have a great definition. In the nutrition science research, we use something called the Nova classification. Nova classification. Yeah. So it's out of Brazil, actually. And so they did like a first effort years ago to define what ultra-process means. And they defined it as foods that include an ingredient or a processing method that you don't have access. too. So you can't replicate it in your kitchen. So the best way I can explain it is with corn. So unprocessed would be corn you pick from the garden. Okay. Minimally processed would be like frozen corn. Okay. So they just chuck the corn and put it in the freezer. And then processed would be canned corn. Okay. They add a little sodium. So just adding sodium is considered process like in this

classification. And then ultra process would be a Dorito chip. So you can't replicate a Dorito chip in your kitchen. But there is corn. She's amazing. You see now? Good. But if we use that definition, right? Because, again, the definition is an ingredients or processing method you don't have access to. So that really means any of these additives that we use to, like, preserve food or change the color of food or those types of things.

There is so much variability in the nutrient density of those foods. So you can have something like a Dorito chip that doesn't have very much nutrient density, right? It's not great for you. But then you can also have something. like a protein powder would be considered ultra-processed, but you're getting a lot of protein in that protein powder. Ah. Right.

So you can't just go good or bad. Exactly. And the people in charge right now are wanting to go good or bad and kind of like demonizing the previous administration for not like taking a hard stance on ultra-process foods. But this is the reason. When you look at the science, there is, there's like nutrient-dense ultra-process foods and they're more accessible. And so if someone can devise a healthful diet that includes a lot of ultra-processed foods,

but that it can still be a health-promoting diet for those people who don't have access to fresh fruits and vegetables, for example, then we can't demonize those foods, right? That we have to identify that, oh, those can actually be health-promoting. And so we still need to do a lot more research in this area. And they've been doing some of that research at the NIH looking at ultra-processed foods. So it's a very nuanced kind of like ecosystem there. But at the end of the day, low-nutrient ultra-processed foods, these prepackaged foods, there's pretty good evidence that they're that they're negatively impacting our health

how do we figure this out is there like a simple trick that we can use when we're out there buying food you know so let's use Doritos as an example yeah someone grabs a bag of Doritos I did I wasn't going to say who someone grabs a bag of Doritos right they haven't eaten that morning I didn't I wasn't going to name any names and then they start nibbling away and you can see that this person is hungry I am and they're just like you know I just need like a little nibbles of a thing, nibbles of a thing. And then they eat it. And then afterwards, they still don't really feel like they've eaten anything.

I don't. And their stomach isn't full at all. And they're going, I still need to eat something. After the podcast, yeah. And because I feel like I need to eat something, it means that that wasn't like necessarily bad for me or didn't, do you get what I'm saying? How do, like, what is that gap that we, that we're, because we all experience it.

Someone goes like, oh, I still have space. So help me understand that Because if I just read it Ultra dense calories I'm like yeah I understand this I don't really understand it Okay so with Dorito chips Let's take Dorito chips

I mean I don't mean to throw Doritos under the bus No no no let's say all chips All the chips Chips let's look at chips Yes So chips tend to be high in salt and fat Okay And so any combination of salt sugar and fat

Is going to be what we term hyper satiating Right so it's going to be like You can just keep eating it, right? And food corporations, by the way, are not trying to hide this. You remember those commercials that were like, you bet you can't eat just one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you pop, you can't stop. Yeah, you can't stop. So, like, they're designing these foods, you know, with salt, sugar and fat to be hyper palatable, hypersatiating. So what the problem is, is that those chips don't have any protein and they don't have any fiber. And protein and fiber are the

things that are going to give you that feeling that you're talking about, which is like feeling a bit full, right? So when you're eating something like that, you want to be pairing it with something that has protein and fiber as well. So maybe eat a chicken sandwich and you have like some chips, right? Or maybe you eat a bean salad and then you have some chips. So implementing fiber and protein are really where you want to focus. Wait, wait, but there's something that's confusing here. So you say the chips, it's the salt, the fat, you're eating it, you know what I mean?

It's making you feel like you're still hungry the whole time. You're eating the thing, you're eating the thing. It makes you feel like you're hungry. Makes you feel like you're hungry. And then you said, pair it with something. else is like a better is a better way to have it. What about those like brands that say we've got fiber in the chips and we've got, do you know what I mean? Like there's some chips that go, no, this is a protein chip, but it still has the same calories on the bag and are those actually

better chips than the other chips? And is the better enough to be better for us? Or is it just a little bit better? How much better? 27% better. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, damn. I was like, Wow. I was like, you... Now we're kidding. Jessica, I thought you were the expert. We just made that up.

We're vulnerable. You had us. I know. I'm sorry. You had us. You had us. I was sold. Welcome to government.

That's not true. That's not true. I was sold. I was... Let me tell you. I had already scheduled in my brain calendar every event I'm going to. And I was going to say 27%. No, no, don't, don't say it.

So I actually, I have actually pro these food corporations doing things like what you're saying, because I do think that if you could add to something that someone's already consuming, and you can almost make a better version of it in the sense. And when we say better, it's just like they're adding in these nutrients that can help potentially like make, potentially make them like more satiating, right? Like fill you up as you're eating them, which I think can be a net positive. So I would say that I think that that would be like a step in the right direction to add some of these things because it could potentially help on the back end.

I don't really have data to say like how much better it is or how effective it actually is. But theoretically, that seems like it could be a potentially good thing to me. I feel like that's where they scam us, though. They're smart because someone like you will say, you need more protein in your diet. You need to make sure that you get more fiber. And then they just write on the bag, more protein, more fiber, just like the doctor said. Correct. And then I'm like, ah, back to those Doritos.

You know, everything that you were saying about Doritos is so true about how they make you feel because I'm constantly battling with that. if I haven't eaten anything healthy in the morning, I'll start out with junk and I'll start thinking I'm doing good, but then I'll feel even worse throughout the day. But my question has always been, what is the definition of being full and what is the definition of being hungry?

Because there's people who go, I don't eat that much and they're fine, but there's people who, if they skip a meal, they ultimately, you know, they fall into collapse because they're super hungry. So when you're eating something good, what is the battery level of, now I'm full?

Is it because you've had the mass of food or is it because your mind is going, we've ticked that box, we've got enough of that and we're good now. I actually do not know the exact answer to your question, which one it is. We obviously have hormones that are kind of like sending signals to our brain. We have hunger hormones.

We have insatiati hormones. What are insatiated hormones? Satiety means like you're full. Okay. So hunger and then full. Okay. And so when you are eating to a certain level, this is why they kind of say to like eat slow and digest your food because it gives like it gives

your hormones essentially time to kind of trigger your brain hey we're full right so if you're kind of if you are relaxed you're sitting you know a lot of people on vacation say that they feel a lot better when they're on vacation when they're eating and a big part of that is they're relaxed they're not stressed they're not running around while eating and like they're not driving their car and eating a sandwich right they're like sitting at a table and chatting and like having a meal and digesting that meal. And so when they do that, they tend to eat less as well, because when you're digesting, it gives those signals time to be like, hey, we're full. So let's not overeat. Which is another thing about ultra-processed foods. It makes it really convenient to eat quickly, right? And so the quicker

we eat, the more we're going to eat before we feel that feeling of full. Okay, so help me understand one more thing. Because I really don't get this, even though I try and read it and understand it. how is it that that tiny bag can make you gain weight when it's like that tiny help me understand like the calorie and why you're gaining weight from a thing so I can eat half a watermelon as I've said and I can eat like a few bags of Doritos

now I'm not saying this scientifically yeah but the Doritos will if I look at my body if I have like if I have a week of terrible food like that I'll see a difference versus if I eat like watermelon the whole week type, like fruit things. How does that work? Because it seems like the mass of this is greater. But I don't think people fully understand

how that tiny amount of food is making them gain more weight than more food, like in a plate. It's just calories. It's what we term energy density or calorie density. So a watermelon is very, is not calorie dense at all, which means that for the mass that you're consuming, the calories are very low. Right? Because the watermelon, first of all, it has tons of water. Like, that's its main thing. It's also got fiber and it's got all of these other like properties to it. So when you're consuming it, it feels like you're eating a lot. It's just like if you consume like a huge plate of vegetables, right? There's not going to be a lot of calories in those vegetables. But it's going to look like a lot. If you hand me a big salad, I'm going to be like, whoa, that looks big. And then you hand me like this little bowl of pasta, it might not look as big, but it's going to have way more calories in it than my big.

salad, right, of vegetables, you know, if you don't put dressing on it. So it's all about the caloric intake. So the small bag of chips has likely far more calories than the half a watermelon or a few pieces of watermelon, whatever you're eating of a watermelon. So that's really what you're looking at. It's so about the calories that you're consuming. Am I correct in then saying, if I think of it as an analogy, it's like calories are like words in a song, right?

You can have a rap song where there's like a little. lot of words in each line. Just a lot of words. Okay. And then you can have like opera or something where it's like one word for the whole, you know what I'm. Ave Maria. That was only two words.

I'm sorry about my friend. No, no, no. This is, hey. The watermelon is Ave Maria in the synology. Thank you. You see, experts don't judge people. You're the one who fell for the sticking list of scam. No, that is why.

You are falling for Ave Maria now. No. That is why. why she's an expert who's connecting with people because she doesn't treat people like idiots when they're trying to understand. Dr. Jessica, you have to learn to say no. No, no, no.

I actually think it's a good analogy. Thank you very much. I was never even thought of an analogy. Yes, because now it's helping me understand. I never fully, I won't lie. I never fully understood it. Yeah. But now when you're saying it, I'm going to like, okay,

Ave Maria is two words. But look at how long it, you get them saying? Yeah. And then like, if you go to like a rap song or something, then it's lyrically dense. Exactly. Do you get what I'm saying? Lyrically dense is calorically dense

The chips are calorically dense And then you add to it They don't have fiber And they don't have protein Which help to fill you up So those things are like separate to the calories Right Ah you see I don't think most people know this

They're not separate to the calories Like protein is involved in the calories But they help to make you feel fuller faster Okay so they'd like teaming up with the calorie To do a better thing for the... Oh, well if you have just the calories by themselves They don't have a teammate and then they actually become bad for you.

Well, you can't just have calories by themselves because calories, I mean, do you really want me to get into the nutrition science? This is what people need to learn. I genuinely, yeah, okay. So there's what, we have macronutrients and micronutrients. Okay. Micronutrients are vitamins and minerals, right? Vitamin C, vitamin D, whatever it is.

Macro-nutrients are calorie-containing nutrients. So that's protein, carbohydrates, and fat. Those are the three like, products. So everything you eat is comprised of I, and or protein. Carbohydrates, fats. Got it. And two out of those three... Okay.

Two out of those three have been demonized. Cubs and fat. Yeah, and we need all of them. They're all very important. Okay. Yeah, they all play roles in our... So if you were advising somebody on their diets and they said, I'm staying away from carbohydrates and fats, you would be not happy?

No, because you cannot eat 100% protein diet. That would be very bad for your body. Why is that bad for your body? Because, well, first, of all, we run on carbohydrates. I mean, that's, that's, and we're getting our fiber from carbohydrates. That's the only place you can get your fiber. And you also need fat for brain health, for many things, for nerve signaling. So fat's incredibly essential, particularly, I mean, for all of us. So each, each macronutrient has a really important role in our body,

and they all kind of play together. And so you can say I'm going to eat a lower carbohydrate diet, and that could be potentially beneficial for someone. But you can't just, like, cut out carbohydrates and fat and only eat protein, like just only eating like raw chicken breast, which also would have a little fat. It's hard to get like pure protein unless you're eating just all ultra processed protein powder. So when we see these people selling that diet online where they go, I've just been eating meat only for two months and I feel amazing and now there's no cancer in my body. We should be skeptical of that. Yeah. And just to be clear, meat has fat. Right. So if you're eating like steak or you're eating really any meat, it's going to have some fat. So meat has protein

in fat without carbohydrates. Okay, got it. So they're eating a protein fat diet without carbohydrates. And yeah, what the literature says is there can be short-term benefits for some people on a diet like that, where you're really reducing carbohydrates like a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet. But the long-term literature does not pan out. Like, we don't have good evidence that that's sustainable for the long term. When we look at food labels, how are we able to discern any of this ourselves so you know i know there's that like simple rule that they give you where they say if you want to stay healthy stay on the outside of a grocery store yeah wow and they go like just never go in so stay on the perimeter and then leave and they say you will be healthier right but but if people

are looking at a package how do you know when the thing is or isn't bad because i remember once seeing um um rfk was talking about like ingredients in food and he was like and he was like look at the back And I had to read the subtitles. I was like, sticky lizard. Is that you? No, and he would, and then he was like talking about the thing. And he said like, this is what is this? What is this?

And then there was scientists who came on and said, no, that's just the scientific name for vitamin C. Yeah, it was rival flavon, I think, in that video. Yeah. And it was like, oh, no, that's just the scientific name for salt. And that's the scientific. So, like, is there a shortcut or is. Is there a way to know what, like, the colloquial word is versus the scientific word? Like, how are people supposed to know this?

Because it all seems like it's poison when you read it on a bag, but then some of it is not. And then some of it may be. So when you're looking at a nutrition label, and this is why, like, I'm a big advocate of front-of-package labeling, which is, like, more clear for people to really understand, oh, this is high in sugar or this is high in fat, just so people are more aware. Right now we don't have that, but they're working on it. But we have labels, and you'll always be able to see the amount of calories, the amount of protein and carbohydrates and fats, and then an ingredient list. Right.

And so, you know, it depends on what someone's goal is, really. Like, if you're looking at a label, I don't actually look at labels much myself because I kind of, you know, I don't eat a ton of, like, prepackaged food, but the prepackaged food I eat, you know, if I'm buying, like, crackers or something, you can look at it if you want to and, like, look at how much fat. a cracker has, and then you can compare it to another cracker that has a bit lower fat. But, you know, if you are just kind of like shopping for yourself, I don't, the label, the label can give you, you know, the way that the ingredients label is, is that it's the first ingredient is the largest in the, in the food. And then it goes down from there. And so a lot of times in the ingredient list, it's like vitamins and minerals.

And there's a lot of them, especially like wheat products, because we fortify our wheat here. And so they have like different B vitamins in them. So a lot of times it can feel very overwhelming to see like a big long ingredient list, but it's not as overwhelming as one might think. That's interesting because it's actually just contained in the food because that's how the food was made. Like the actual, yeah, you see, I didn't know that about wheat in that fortifying. We fortify with like vitamins. Right. Right. Right. In the wheat. So you'd find that people who work out will have a pre-workout meal and a post-workout meal sometimes. Maybe it's a shake. Maybe it's a salad, whatever it is, the average person who doesn't work out, do you have to be conscious

about if you're going to have maybe a busy day and you're going to work, you're going to walk like maybe four miles today? Can you specifically look into your pantry or your fridge and go, I'm going to eat like this because I'm going to be active versus I know I'm not going to get out the house for the next four days. So eating this might be bad for me. In terms of the amount that they're eating? In terms of the kind of food and the amount that they're eating. So they're going for a walk for four mile walk? Let's say I know that this week, I'm going to I'm going to walk. Okay, yeah.

I'm going to walk a lot. So I'm going to work from home to work. Is there specific foods that I should avoid if I know that next week I'm working from home? I shouldn't eat any of these. No. No, I think that, you know, you can, you can, like, downregulate the amount of food that you're eating if you downregulate your energy expenditure or your physical activity. Like you can, you can decrease, right? You don't have to eat as much food.

So you'll eat more food when you're more physically active. And then the next week, if you're less physically active, and that's where, like, hunger signals come in, right? And so if you feel hungry, you eat again, kind of, like, try to digest your food, eat till you are no longer hungry. Don't overeat just because it, like, you know, continues to taste so good. Or, like, hobby-wise, a lot of us will do that just, like, out of habit. And so just, you know, eat to fullness. And then the next week, you probably won't be as hungry. And so, like, you will not probably eat as much.

You don't have to plan for it, though. How important is listening to your body? because sometimes like what you touched on this hobby eating and habit eating is quite prevalent right now, right? You see something on television on social media you go, I think I'll order one of those. But how is it, how important is it to listen to your body

and go, it might be 6 o'clock and I usually eat at this time, but today I'm not hungry. Yeah, it's really important to listen to your body and not override signals. And that's why like distraction can be a problem too sometimes. So like if we're really distracted or really stressed or really, you know, doing things while we're eating, it can lead to overeating, right?

is just kind of like being present with your meal and sitting there. And now we're getting into like the psychology of eating. But it is. It's a lot of like presence can really help in terms of like understanding your own hunger and satiety cues. Do you think there needs to be, it's interesting that you said that. Do you think there needs to be an overlap in how we talk about these subjects? Because for a long time, experts have always like stayed in their lane. And I mean like just stayed in their lane.

Yeah. You know, they'll go like, no, no, I'm a bone doctor. You're like, but are you a doctor? They're like, yes, of bones. Like, but can you tell me what's... They're like, no, bones. And I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, but it almost feels like then the gaps open up for the people who are like, oh, I can tell you about bones and more.

And those people may not be the experts, you know. Like, I've seen a bunch of your videos where, for instance, you're talking to moms. And I understand why, because you told us the personal connection you have with misinformation online to moms. But I've noticed that you get into... to the emotional side of things, you don't just say, here's the facts. You'll say, like, I know you're scared. Or, hey, it might be scary when you hear that, or when you, you might be worried about that. Or here's, you feel like you want to. When did, when did you decide,

why do you think it's important to, to make that shift and expand beyond, like, just the literature and the science and include the human on the other side of the information? I think I benefit from my audience and the conversations that I have, like in my DMs, which I actually do engage, with quite often and hearing how much stress and anxiety and food anxiety many of these women have. And again, I went through this life stage of pregnancy and postpartum. And I actually, with my second, I had pretty bad postpartum anxiety. And so it was important to, I mean, I kind of lived it. And so I understand how they are feeling. And I think that that gives me a lot of empathy for what they're going through. And so that's actually why I also am like so,

committed to kind of correcting some of this misinformation, particularly that that's targeted at new moms and young moms because anxiety is really high. And so I hear from women all the time in my DMs about how much food anxiety they have and how they're scared to eat anything and how, you know, because that's what the out, if you get into a particular algorithm on social media and you just keep seeing the same things over and over and that's what plays really well to social media algorithms are these conspiratorial kind of really sensational claims, it can be really problematic. And so I think, it's really important to me when I'm presenting information to meet people where they are and kind of like bridge that gap. So then they'll be more open to kind of hearing the information that I'm providing and the data that I'm providing. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. What's your bat signal? Like what's the thing that you see that makes you go,

time to get the cape out? I think of you like that I don't think of Jessica like that at all I really I really don't think of Jessica like a superhero You don't think of her like a superhero? Yeah because in one moment you're sitting at home Hey guys let's get the bad signal out

No but yeah but that's still Yeah but everyone has their Batman especially Because you think about it You're sitting at home right You're a mom and you're a doctor yes but you're at home There's got to be something that you see that makes you go I gotta get my back cake

I want to know what that thing is Trevor so you don't want her to be Batman No don't do that You're saying Dr. Jessica can't be Batman Is that what you're saying? Go back to how when she sees the...

Oh yeah You got to do it So you're at home Yeah You're hanging out with the kids You're doing your whole thing And then a video And then you see the video

And you're like I've got a sense I've got to do something about this What are you looking for That's exactly I'm going to say it from now What are you looking for that trigger

Because there could be things that people have, there's old wives' tales. Right. Yeah. I could be wrong on this, but a lot of them aren't really harmful. They just don't do, you know, it's like people throw salt over it. Things like that, even in nutrition, I'm assuming.

And then there are things that are actually detrimental to people's health. Misinformation. Misinformation that'll hurt you. Because there's useless misinformation. And there's misinformation that will hurt you. When you're online and you're seeing these videos, what's something that triggers you to go,

oh, no, no, no, I've got to step in. And like, for instance, what's the most recent one that you did where you went, oh, yeah, I've got to step in here. Yeah, so usually it's someone will, most of the things that I respond to, people have sent me. And so if somebody sends it to me and then I see it, and they are very concerned, that's like a, that's one of the signals that I look at.

So, oh, my gosh, they're concerned. Then I'll go watch the video. And if I see in the comment section, a lot of people who are either being misled by it or being concerned by it, That's usually what I look for. So it's like videos that a lot of people are influencing a lot of people or are confusing a lot of people.

That's generally what I'll do. And then I also kind of think, can I provide a good rebuttal that's not too in the weeds in a succinct amount of time? Because it's social media, right? And so if it's going to be like a 10-minute rebuttal, it's usually something that I'll kind of put to the side. But if it's something that I'm like, I can literally just show a couple of articles about exactly how false this is, then that's something.

that I'll kind of pick up. So something that's like in the vernacular, in the like, we're all talking about it. Okay, got it, got it. And that's in like our thoughts. Yes, the zeitgeist. Yeah, the zeitgeist. Yeah. And then can I really like respond to it effectively in a short amount of time?

Do the other people ever respond back to you? Like, because you're out there saying this is false, this is fake. Do those people ever come back at you? I mean, it's happened a few times. Usually they just block me. Oh, lazy. So they don't like try and challenge you at all? Not usually, no.

Oh, man. Sometimes, though. Oh, yeah? Sometimes they refuse to like accept what I've said to or they'll just kind of like dig in. Just depends on who it is, I suppose. So in that type of scenario, when someone is claiming to be an expert and another person is an expert, how do you then show a neutral observer where the truth actually lies? Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't rely on that. to just believe me because I'm me. That's why I use so many, like, references in my videos, and I'll show, like, if I tell you, for example, a lot of people on social media are saying, like, synthetic food dyes are banned in Europe. Yes. Right?

Yeah. Like, you've probably heard it. Red die 40s banned in Europe. So I will, and I think that's a harmful narrative because what it does is it kind of, like, plays into this idea that, like, America is poisoning us, and all these other countries care, their scientists care and their regulatory agencies care and their business. banning these things. And that's just not true. And so what I'll do is I'll show, you know, all five synthetic food dyes that are used in the United States predominantly, which is red,

red 40, yellow five, yellow six, blue one and blue two have all been deemed safe by EFSA in the European Union. Oh, they have. All of them. Huh. Yeah. See, see you're you. Yeah, no, this is because of the narrative on social media. And they have. They've all been deemed safe. I knew that they were deemed safe, but I didn't know that they were also deemed safe in Europe. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. So, yeah. So, they're deemed safe here by the FDA, but they're also deemed safe in the European Union by EFSA. And so I'll go and I'll show kind of like their regulatory agency, not the regulatory, but they're a scientific safety agency, and I'll show how they've been deemed safe. So you don't

have to take my word for it. Go fact check me. But I'm going to bring this information to you so that you're aware that it's not a difference in regulation. And then I kind of like will walk them through, you know, whatever else we're talking about. But I think that that's really helpful to kind of give people their own ability to then go and look into it more if they want to or actually like show them why it's false instead of just kind of relying on them believing me that it's false like I'm doing right now because I'm not really showing you that it's false but go back took me after no no I'm I mean I'll I'll read this but I what I'm saying is like I knew one part of it is what I'm saying do you know it's like I just knew one piece of it

and then I didn't know another piece of it and I think that's that's actually what people don't realize that's that's fertile ground for misinformation a lot of people People think, and this is something that I had to learn, and I learned it acutely during COVID. Before that, I didn't really need to know it, I think. I didn't understand how so many people felt the way they did about vaccines, right? And forget the COVID vaccines. I will always say that to people who are even, like, fighting with that. I go like, let's forget the COVID vaccine for a moment.

Take it away. Because I understand this was a unique moment in time. It was fast. It's confused. Let's forget it. But vaccines themselves, I don't understand how you're against them. They'll be like, because they're not safe and they're not this. And then I go like, I grew up in a country where like my arm looks like a war zone.

Do you know what I mean? It's like I've got every vaccine. You've got every vaccine. Our parents have every vaccine. Everyone's just, please tell me you've been vaccinated. But they didn't give us a choice. You were in school, bam, bam, bam, jab, jab. And they did the thing.

Polio vaccine. Yeah, like all of these things, right? And so what I then realized was it's sort of the opposite. It's not the people who. don't know anything. It's the people who are actually reading and trying to learn and really informing themselves that are oftentimes the most susceptible to the misinformation because they quote unquote do their own research. Do you know what I mean? So they go, well, I actually read this and I read this and I read this and I saw the study that was done and I saw this and then it's like

is it a study, is it not a study? It was a study on five people who conducted the study. How do you even know when a study is good? Is it a meta-analysis or is it a, it becomes, but that's where the fertile ground. And so like the milk, make America, make America healthy again movement. Yeah, maha. If you look at it, 80% of what they're saying is sort of like the truth, the 20% is where they make the money and the magic happen. I mean, that's the best kind of misinformation. You have a little bit of truth and that's what gets people, that's what brings people in. Yeah. It's like, oh, they're, they're helping, even if it's like 80% of the time, they're helping, right? Some of these people. And it's like they're giving out good information,

but it's the 20% of the time where they're completely manipulating the narrative and then, you know, taking advantage of you and the narrative, that's really the biggest problem. So, yeah, I think you're right. There is a problem right now because much of the misinformation we see, which is sometimes why it's so hard to kind of combat it and, like, explain the nuance because there's overlap there. There's like, yes, this is true. And here is how that is being manipulated.

Yeah, because you now have to go yes first. And people are like, oh, so you do agree. And then you're like, but, but, and now it's too late. Like, seed oils is a good one. That's like one of those myths that also doesn't go away. Do you, do you ever see these where, no matter what happens, they just keep coming back, they just keep coming back. They just, like, seed oil is a good one. Sunflower oil versus canola oil.

Just seed oils. In South Africa, that's what's going on now. Oh, that's the fight for South Africa. Yes, because they're going, canola oil is used for things that you wouldn't want to know about. And then people for a long time were using canola oil over sunflower oil. Huh. And now the switches, people are going back to sunflower. Everywhere you go, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, collo, conola oil,

so there's a big drive, I think, is a fight back, obviously, from the sunflower industry. That's going, you need to use sunflower oil. You need to use sunflower oil. So a lot of people now have moved there. Avocata oil hasn't caught on that much. And obviously olive oil isn't caught on that match. But the big battle right now in South Africa is between canola oil and olive oil. So are seed oils?

I mean, and sunflower oil. So are seed oils toxic? No. Is palm oil toxic? No. Well, palm oil has some issues with the environment, right? And with like that sort of thing. But all seed oils, the best nutrition science research that we have suggests the exact opposite than that they're toxic.

And this is where, again, a little bit of truth kind of like gets kind of spun into these interesting narratives. So seed oils, which are basically vegetable oils, that's what we've called them. They're like sunflower, safflower, canola, rapeseed in other countries. These oils are used all around the world, right? It's not just in the United States. And what we have in terms of nutrition science research, when we look at epidemiological data and we look at people who are actually consuming seed oils, it shows the exact opposite than they're harmful for us.

It actually shows a cardioprotective mechanism so that it looks like they are cardioprotective, especially when you switch them for saturated fats. What are saturated fats? Like beef tallow? Yeah, beef tallow. Because beef tallow I've now seen online. That's the healthy thing. This is the best thing to use.

You should only be using beef tallow. Yeah, that's... They're like, you should wash your face in beef tallow. Yeah. Do you remember when they were telling you to wash your face in coconut oil? There was the coconut oil revolution. I tried it. It was terrible.

Yeah. It just blocks your paws. Yeah. And you smell like coconut the whole day and you just get like really hungry. All day long. All day long. When you walk in the sun or anywhere? I would just smell

coconut everywhere I was going You smell sauteed Yeah And then I was just like It was terrible for like managing my hunger I'm always fascinated about Wait wait wait Let me explain the seed oil thing

Yeah Ced Oil sorry Because they do take I mean there is it And this is something that happens Actually a lot in In social media narratives with nutrition They'll take a mechanism

That's true Okay And then they will Expand upon that To where we don't have any evidence To suggest that's true So for example Well, seed oils have some, they're high in alpha linoleic acid and linoleic acid.

And so that's, those are polyunsaturated fatty acids. And so that converts to something called arachidonic acid. And when we look in a lab setting, that increases inflammation, right? It can increase the inflammatory cascade. And that, that is true when that, when that conversion happens. But when we look, first of all, that conversion doesn't happen very much at all. And second of all, when we look at it in a human model, because, humans are complex. Our bodies are complex and not everything always like we might

hypothesize because this happened in the lab. It's going to happen when we look at like humans living their lives. And oftentimes that's not the case because again, we're complex. And so when we look at human models and we look at people who have been living and consuming seed oils, we just don't see that same effect. So we don't see higher inflammation. We don't see negative impacts. We actually see that people who are eating more of these linole, these polyunsaturative fatty acids have better health outcomes. And so another, but another truth is that seed oils, because they're highly processed, because they're cheap and because they are relatively flavorless compared to something like canola oil, they're used in a lot of these prepackaged ultra-process foods. And so we are

consuming a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods. And so we're over-consuming seed oils, which can be, if you over-consume anything, including watermelon, it can be problematic for your health, right? And so those truths exist, but what does not exist is this idea that seed oils are toxic and why that's so harmful, you know, my mother-in-law, she's from Romania and she pretty much exclusively cooks in quote-unquote seed oils, right? Like vegetable oil, but she's like sauteing vegetables and their foods and things. And so if you're telling someone who's using that because it's an affordable, accessible oil that it's toxic, but they're eating a pretty nutrient-dense diet and just using that oil, that's very harmful and problematic. Because what are you saying?

that they have to go and buy like the regenerative olive oil from like the farm with the grazing cows. Yeah, yeah. Like that's just not sustainable for people. So we have to, we have to like live in reality and understand that like science does not say that these oils are harmful or toxic and they're accessible and affordable for people, which is, I think, an important distinction. But I think to Eugene's point, and I mean, we've seen this, it's not even a conspiracy.

We've seen how we're also like you're fighting with. you know, misinformation. But we also forget that there's a company in the background somewhere, there's a food lobby somewhere that's trying to push something, to push something else out, to push something in. Like, look at how many years fat was bad.

And then we found out, remember in that investigation where the sugar lobby worked really well to vilify fat and carbohydrates. And then only now are we going, oh, damn, sugar, you know, we didn't realize that sugar was copious amounts of sugar. Because again, nothing is just bad. but sugar was the thing

we should have been looking for in excess of amounts but it's fat free if it was fat free it was good for you and you're like I can eat as much of it as I want because it's fat free

so I will not get fat yeah I mean it's important and I think you're drawing an important distinction based on what are corporations going to do first of all the media is going to sensationalize

like science findings right a study they're going to sensationalize the findings but then corporations they're going to take any little thing and try to spin it

as the like the best thing for them right and they'll use it in marketing. So if, you know, if there's a study that comes out that shows something good about blueberries, right? Like a product that has blueberries is going to put that on their label and be like, this is the best thing that's ever happened, right? And so the problem is we need to be better at regulating those marketing claims. And so there are quite a few claims that are regulated. I think they just added like healthy last year. But there's quite a few that

aren't. So they can put it on the label and just kind of like as a marketing tool for the company. There's also a protein. Protein is that. Oh yeah. Protein's having. If you just hit just enough protein, they can be like high in protein. And that's like a marketing thing for these companies. I think organic for a long time was one of those. Oh, they nailed that one. Yeah. Organic is very regulated though. So like you have to meet organic standards. What are organic standards? Let's say in meat or let's say in fruit and vegetables. Yeah, I don't, I do not know exactly what the organic standards are, but I just know that, like, you have to use specific pesticides in, like, fruits and vegetables, for example. You can't use non-organic pesticides. You use organic pesticides. And there's,

I don't think it can be GMO. I think there's a couple of other, like, categorizations that, but I'm, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. Can I just say something that I've noticed, which I really enjoy about talking to experts is, you say, I don't know a lot. Yeah. I don't know if you, no, I don't know if you've noticed this. This is, and this is, it's so refreshing because we live in a world where most people we interact with on this level are online, right? And so we've been sold this idea that certainty about everything means that the person is an expert. Yeah.

You know, there's an expert, expert, expert, expert. And what's started to give me a little more solace and even, you know, to your point, like understanding what a red flag is, is experts will tell you where their expertise ends. So you've said that, you know, we've had a neuroscientist on the podcast. And they'll go, actually, I don't know because that part I don't, I think this because I know that part of it, but I don't know about this completely. And I wonder if that's also something we should look at as a red flag is if the person is all knowing about everything all the time, something's fishy. Yeah, I think that is a good use of red flags on social media. Yeah, if somebody is like appearing to be particularly like if they say they're a doctor and then they don't put their credentials.

in the actual profile, so they'll call themselves doctor so-and-so, but there'll be no credentials. Usually, I have found that they are practicing outside of their scope of practice. They're just, you know, you'll look at their page and they're an expert in nutrition and an expert in brain science and an expert in this and that. And so that is a good thing, I think, to look at. Yeah, like, I've always wondered, how does somebody who is just, let's say, the doctor or medical doctor or they've got a doctorate so they can say doctor. how do they know about like 5G and Wi-Fi?

I'm always, because I go, aren't these two things separate? And again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that in medical school you're learning about the frequencies and radio waves. Do you know what I mean? But like how do you deal with those types of claims? Do you then pass it off to somebody? Do you, you know, like what do you do with that?

When somebody says to you, oh, Dr. Jessica, this thing here is also, does this cause that? What do you say to them in that instance? Do you go, well, I just don't know, move on to someone else? Or have you, like, formed, like, a little team of experts who you can pass it on to? I have, yeah. So if somebody asks me a question that's just outside my scope of practice, they do that quite often with, like, beauty toxins. Okay, yeah, yeah.

So, like, you know, the clean beauty movement. And that's just not my area. They asked me, like, what about this ingredient in lotion? I have absolutely no idea. So I have, like, cosmetic chemists that I'll refer people to. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So it's helpful to have, like, a little network of.

people who are outside your area. Almost like Avengers. Yeah. Avengers of Health. The science communication Avengers. It actually is. That's like, I mean, that's fundamentally what we need. Well, Batman's not in, in, in, in, um, it's D.C. and Marvel.

There's no inclusion. Yeah. No, no, I'm just saying, you know, I'm not coming anymore. You can't come Batman. Sorry, like legally Marvel owns. I like, I like how in his fantasy world, you can have a male voice and drop your kids and go, I need to go online. Yeah. But you can be in another. comic strip. Yeah, he has like these boundaries that don't...

I draw the line at her crossing over, but her being a man... Listen, listen, this is legal. This is what this is. Okay? Yes. I do not want to be sued by Marvel or by DC for saying that somebody is in another universe. Okay? You know what I love about you?

You're always with... I wanted to ask you why you chose the style that you chose for debunking things. And maybe it ties into what you were saying about the scientific community and academia in general. It's always been very, you know, it's like, Eugene, do your glasses, it's been very that. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's that thing. And you use humor. You're really engaging. You take it seriously, but you do not take yourself too seriously. Why did you choose that approach, you know? Because you could have come in and just been like, I'm a. an expert, here's what it is, but you didn't. You've gone for something that isn't necessarily associated with academia and with like rigorous studies. Why that choice? Well, thank you. I don't

know. I think it's just naturally who I am. So it's probably just like lucky me that I chose something that I kind of approach it that way. This is a natural thing. I also think that I have recognized that we have this, we're living in this moment that people don't necessarily trust experts. And they don't necessarily trust scientists as much as they did before. It's not as bad as social media might have you believe because I just presented on some data. I was speaking at the Mayo Clinic a few weeks ago and I presented data on like the trustworthiness of different professions. And scientists and medical professionals are actually still some of the most trustworthy people when you compare them to, you know, other professions. And so I don't know that

the problem is as bad as we see it, but it's certainly declining. And so I think it's really important to like humanize like experts and um and scientists in particular because that's my space um i think you know we take a lot we should take some blame for the fact that people don't necessarily trust or are losing trust in science and that's because you know scientists for a long time and even still today we write in a language that's not accessible to people we speak in a language that's not accessible to people like your glasses right we yeah and we we publish our work behind pay walls that are not accessible to people where you have to pay like $85 to read a single research article. And so I think that's been a problem. And so we need to kind of like put a face to people

who are who are doing the research. And I, you know, I think that science communication is actually becoming more of an important field so that we can bridge that gap between like the researchers in the lab and then like what people actually need to know so that we're able to fill some of that out too. But I think like what to your point of like humanizing like being human right and like inserting you know a personality. I just think that that helps to build trust too. Right. So like when you can you have to like know the person to then learn from the person. And so so that's part of it. I also like the fact that you're giving it to people for free. You know, this is something that we don't focus enough on in society. And it's that you have to pay for the truth but lies are

free you know what I mean yeah like there's no website that has lies that you have to pay for search anything online search about any story any news article any health article you name it the article the news the websites and the pages that are fake yeah are free you're right yeah and then when it's a real thing they'll be like would you like to pay for the truth and I'm like yeah but if it's so important why and don't get me wrong I understand exactly and don't get me wrong I understand that they have to pay their people. Yeah, they have to pay people, et cetera. But it is sad that we live in a world.

And that's why I also appreciate that because this is not your job. And yet you are giving people education that they wouldn't otherwise be able to access if they weren't in the institutions that you're in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're bringing up a point that's kind of, it's like nuanced because we have to also figure out a way to make it sustainable for people to do.

Yeah. Like science communicators and things. things like that. And so, you know, there still has to be conversation about how to do that. But, yeah, I think that it's really important. And that's why, I mean, I have a substack that I never put things behind paywalls. And that's why. Like, I want people to have access to to the information. Because I think that that's really important. And they shouldn't, you know, you don't want to put things behind paywalls if you really want people to understand them. But I also understand the other side that people have to make a living, you know. Yeah. I feel like

in a perfect world that sort of be like a fund maybe or a, like in a perfect world, Every university would be, and I know many do, by the way, don't get me wrong, in, you know, certain courses. But every university should be giving away a portion of their education for free. You get what I'm saying? So that education is not only limited to the people who can pay for it. Well, I guess that's what scholarships are. Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond that. I say like on, I mean just meeting, yeah, meet the people where they are.

I know Harvard does it. There's a few of them where you'll be shocked at how many courses you can do at a high level university without ever going there. Yeah. But nobody knows about it. is the weird thing. You don't know that if you go to that page and you click on it, there are free courses you can do on a whole host of things that won't make you an expert,

but at least will give you a basic level of knowledge that welcomes you into the game without you paying anything. Yeah, a few things I've learned this week is the human body is a very complicated machine. And I think we're still trying to figure it out. Scientists, I think they're still trying to figure out how the human body works. And another part, thanks to you, is that nutrition can be a complicated subject if it's led by the wrong information, right? So if people know what to eat and what not to eat, people will be healthier.

But I also feel like society has made certain body type look unhealthy and certain body types look healthy. So if you're super skinny, we assume that you are healthy. If you're not super skinny, we assume that you are unhealthy. And I think that psychologically as a nation, as a country, as a people, we need to do a lot in just convincing people that body types might be different, appetites might be different, likes might be different, but the healthiness is not determined by what someone looks like, right? Yeah, it's much more determined by the behaviors that that person is engaging in,

right? And so you're absolutely right. Like, we can all, just naturally, we all have different body types. And what's interesting is that's kind of like flipped in terms of like the public perception of it. It really is amazing, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and you guys probably know this even better, but it used to be if you had a bit more weight that was looked at as a helpful thing versus versus the opposite. The flip for me was just coming from South Africa to the US. when we were growing up there were as many if not more jokes about a person being skinny

like nicknames Sticks Manzanza you know what I mean all those things Sticky Malinky all of You know what I mean Which bone? There you go Magistick Eugene wrote most of them Do they're really this many?

No they really are They're tons tons and tons of tons And like your parents would even roast you as well If you were like skinny They would even be And then people would roast your family And you could And then you, and look, I understood it over time, but you'd come to the US and it would be the opposite.

Yeah. And then I realized that no matter where you were, the insult was generally coming from how far you were from society's perception of not just the looks, but wealth. Yeah. So in Africa, if you were skinny, it's because you were poor. Yes. So the further from skinny you could be, the wealthier you were. But then in the United States, the first. fatter you were, the further you were from wealth. And so now you could pay to look. It meant that

you could get healthy food and vegetables. It meant that you didn't eat takeout every single nights of the week. And going back to what Eugene said, I love that one point you said about the differences. How do we figure out what a serving size actually means? Because people say like serves two, one serving. When you think of it as a nutritionist, like what is or isn't a serving and how do we think of, should I eat one serving if it says serves one? Is that one for me or is the one different for every one? How does that work? Yeah, so serving sizes, I mean, there's standard serving sizes and like you can use your palm.

Like, for example, protein might be like the palm of your hand. And these are... Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's slow that down. Protein is the palm of your hand? What do you mean? I mean, that's just kind of like a good marker. Like a good rule of thumb? Yeah, a good rule of thumb.

Like the amount of protein I should eat is the palm of my hand. For one serving, yeah. Wait, wait, but how high does that protein go? Yeah, that's a good question No, but that's what's always confused me I'll go to I'll go to a steak restaurant These are good questions

Yeah, but you go How many times does this happen? You go to a place and you go Can I get a steak, right? If you get like a skirt steak Like it's a little thin In New York strip steak or something A strip steak is, they'll give you like a thin strip

Right, and it fills your plates Right And then sometimes you go Can I get a different cut And the meat's like this high, but it's just, and I'm like that fits in the palm of my hand. Yeah, yeah. So the palm of your hand is not a perfect measurement. It's just kind of like a general, but there are actual serving sizes.

So like meat might be three to four ounces, right? So if you go to a restaurant and you get an eight-ounce steak, that's going to be like two servings of steak, two to two to two and a half servings of steak. And so if you're looking at like a label, it will say what the serving size is. So like for cereal, for example, it'll be like three-fourths of a cup. and then you, like, pour it in your bowl, and it's like three times three-fourths of a cup, right? So that's going to be three servings. So then, again, this is kind of like, this is my nutrition 101, of course. I love it.

That's what everyone needs. If it says 100 calories for three-fourths of a cup, but you pour yourself three servings, which was kind of like a standard cereal bowl, right? You're actually getting 300 calories, not just 100 calories from that amount of food. You have to, like, triple it because you're having triple the servings on the label. So that's kind of how you would think about it. Is that part of the problem in America? Like, I know this isn't the catch-all, but when people travel, everyone will comment on how serving sizes change.

You know, they'll go, like a cup of anything in America is massive. Like, the movies is the best example. When you go to the movies in America and you get a large soda, if you came back with that large soda to South Africa, like the whole village is drinking with you. Do you know what I'm saying? Except for Kinimalingi. Jesus. She's napping with a serving of meat. But like, like, you know, those those are also strange signifiers that throw people off.

Because they go, I've seen people say this and I don't even mean it in a mean way. They go, I barely eat anything. I had one bowl of granola and I had like one cup of coffee. Yes. And then I had won this. And I had one sandwich and I had one burger and I can't lose the weight. And I feel like you would be the perfect person to explain to them. how the size of the thing makes the difference.

Because you just broke it down with cereal. Yeah. And when you said just pour three-fourths of a cup, I went, I wouldn't, that would, if you came to my house and you were like, you saw me pour a cup of three-quarters of a cup. I'll be the first person to tell you, I don't know what you're doing. Exactly. Yeah.

I've never done that. You fill the bowl. Yeah. The ball must be full. Yeah. This is the, so would you tell people to get smaller bowls? That's like when people pour themselves like wine at home in their glass. It's not actually a service.

of wine. That's not a serving? No, how she now hide the wine gets... It's more like two like two servings of wine, right? But here's my... Here's my thing.

The disconnection that people have with their food, do you find that it is psychologically fair? Because when I was growing up, my mom, when she would be making dinner, it will take an hour for her to get everything ready and it would get you anticipate

the meal and she would be like, you can't eat a sandwich, I'm already cooking, going to ruin your appetite. Do you feel like now people... Or you have people who go, if I cook, then I can't eat the food, food. I don't feel like eating the food anymore.

Yeah, could have been tasting, eating, doing the whole thing. Do you feel like now people have disconnected from the process of making meals that stops them from enjoying meals versus what you said to me the other day that the anticipation for a meal nowadays is gone? People are watching TV. Actually, how is that in your field discussing how somebody should even think of consuming a meal? Like, does it change what the meal does to them? You know, sort of what Eugene is saying is like, is it detrimental? to us to not be part of the food being prepared.

And I don't mean like detrimental detrimental, detrimental, but other benefits. Yeah, to being kind of disconnected from the whole food system, essentially. Yeah. So there's some good data like with children, for example. If you integrate children into the like whole process of cooking the meal, I even have a garden for my son, my son and my five-year-old son and I started a garden because he gets so excited to like grow like the vegetables. And like he gets, he always goes, unfortunately only.

one strawberry the whole season grew this year. But he was out there like every day looking for a strawberry. It was really sad. Actually to the point that literally a couple weeks ago he took strawberries from the refrigerator and put it into the garden and then came and got us. And it was like, look.

That's adorable. I like that he was trying to like manage your disappointment. I know, I know. He was like, he was sitting there night and he's like, oh, my poor parents, they don't understand agriculture. They really are having a tough time with disappointment. Let me Let me make their day.

I'm just going to go and make their day. I don't know why the strawberries didn't grow. Maybe somebody out there can tell me. But anyway, it gets him excited, right? To, like, prepare the food. And then if he helps me in the kitchen, like, cook the food, it gets him more excited and he's more willing to try the food in that sense. And I think that that's, like, a psychology that is obviously true for, like, all of us, right?

If we have more of an investment in the whole preparation process, it can be helpful to us. But again, there's a lot of barriers to being able to do that. So, like, there's time barriers and there's obviously money barriers and access barriers that all kind of play into our individual choices. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? So if somebody is coming to your feed and they're looking for the information, what are the things that they should look to you for and what are the things that they shouldn't look to you for? Like when you go like, this is like what I will distinctly help you with.

It's, it's, you know, this is the column. Yeah. So I, I, um, focus a lot on, uh, the systems in our country that, that set us up for success for evidence-based recommendations. So if we're trying to like, if we're trying, well, first of all, nutrition science, right? So all of the nutrition stuff. But if we're trying to prevent lifestyle related chronic disease, um, there's many things that go into that.

And so there's, there's nutrition, there's exercise, um, there's sleep and there's stress reduction and, you know, there's, there's accessibility of health care access, so you can go to preventive visits. And so looking at, you know, we all make individual choices within a system. Right. And so what are the systems in, in this country, that either set people up for success or set people up for failure? And what policies have been enacted that have led to these systems versus what could we be enacting that could improve those systems? So I kind of like to look at the whole health system and public health in general. But so certainly like nutrition science and then looking at holistically,

what can we do to prevent chronic disease? If you were giving somebody just like simple tips, like for all of us to go away. Like I know now no more half watermelon. This is I've, you didn't say it to me, but I felt it. And I appreciate that. Palm of my hand is a shortcut, but obviously understanding it's still within. Okay. But what are some of the tips that you would?

give somebody, let's break it down actually, you know, because there's so many different types of people. So let's start with a mom. I say there's a mom out there who goes, you know, I really want to get out there and I want to make sure that my kid is getting the right food in the right ways. Do I get them a bag of candy? Do I give them a treat? Do I give them chocolate? How bad is this for them? What am I trying to feed them? What are some of the tips that you would give just a mom in that situation because they don't want their kid getting cancer or type two diabetes or any of these things. Yeah, so let me step back and just give kind of like a holistic view of what we've been what we've been recommending really for decades. Because I think there's a lot

of confusion in nutrition because of social media about like what to eat, what not to eat, what to do. But like in the nutrition science research, like it's been pretty consistent for decades. And so overall, like if you meet these things, you're going to be far and away better than, you know, most people. So making sure that you're getting fruits and vegetables and a variety of these whole foods as much as possible. And again, there's going to be issues in terms of barriers for people. But this is what the evidence shows. So getting a range of fruits and vegetables, getting a range of proteins, a variety of proteins that can be different meats, that can be beans, tofu, like all of these different plant-based and animal-based proteins.

I'm going to interrupt you in a few places, forgive me, just so I can clarify in some of these. Does it change what packaging those things come in? So if somebody goes, I'm going to get beans, but they canned, and I'm going to get tofu, but it's in this packaging, and I'm going to get, does it change at all? Or is that still the good foundation to go with? Yeah. So those things are going to be, you know, those are going to be on the margins, right?

So maybe it'll change a little bit. But like the overall, I would much prefer you to eat canned beans than no beans. Okay, got it. Okay, got it. So, like, that's, this is so much more important in terms of, like, what you're including versus like, should it be canned or should I prepare it from the bag in an instapot or whatever it is. Okay. And then, you know, if, if, because canned beans are incredibly accessible and convenient for people. And so if that's going to get you to eat more

beans, which is going to increase your fiber intake, that's what I'm going to go with. Okay, got it. I myself use a lot of canned beans because it's so much easier. I just rinse them off. Wait, why do you rinse them off? Just to rinse like the sodium off because there's a lot of sodium in the can to preserve. There's a trick. See, there's a trick. Yeah. Okay. I like that. Stick them in a calendar and rinse them off. Oh, I've seen people doing that with garbanzer beans, right?

Yeah, yeah. Chickies. Yeah. Yeah. They rinse them off and then they... No, but you see, this is what I mean. It's like these types of things. Yeah.

Because we live in... I mean, I don't need to tell you this, but we live in a world where sometimes the tips are given to people in a way that... I loved what you just said. It's given to people in a way where they can't access it. So it's like, don't eat the stuff in the can. And they're like, well, you've already excused me

because I can't afford the other things. Or it's not convenient. I don't have the time. But I love that little tip that you've included there. Get the canned beans. Just rinse them off because the bean is great. It's all the stuff that's around the bean that maybe not as good for you. Yeah, just reducing the sodium content.

Okay, cool. All right. So, okay, got it. Yep. And that's the same with like frozen, frozen vegetables and frozen fruits. I mean, those are wonderful options and they're more accessible and they'll last longer. And so if that's what can get you to eat more vegetables, like choose the frozen options, right? And actually, sometimes frozen can be more nutrient dense because they flash freeze it.

yeah then then fresh but yeah so um get a variety of fruits and vegetables get a variety of proteins make most of your grains whole grains or a good amount because you're getting more fiber I mean all of this is kind of like trying to increase fiber what is what is a whole grain and forgive me I know I'm going to sound like an idiot because I am but also because I think a lot of people don't know what these things mean yeah so what is a whole grain a whole grain just has more fiber in it so like it's it's versus a refined grain okay so a refined grain will go through like the refined like but give me an example of what is what is a like white rice versus brown rice for example oh okay saying not to eat white rice because i myself like white rice it's just that

you want to implement some whole grain so so things like whole wheat products instead of refined wheat so that'd be like a whole wheat bread instead of a white bread okay got it's got it's that's kind of the best example um and and again that's because it's going to get you more vitamins more nutrients and more fiber essentially okay um and then you know reduce your intake of low nutrient ultra-processed foods. And again, there's variability there, but really when we're thinking about it, and that doesn't mean eliminate your intake, right? It just, right now, 70% of our food environments are these ultra-processed foods. And 70, because again, our food, our food environment was really built for corporate profits, not necessarily for our health

at kind of every stage of the food cycle. But decreasing your intake of those and making sure that you're getting adequate fiber, adequate protein, and that's not really too much of an issue for us and adequate fruits and vegetables. And those things, again, they've been consistent forever, right? Yeah. Yeah. Those dietary patterns. And then, you know, in terms of, there's other things, like in terms of exercise, making sure you meet your exercise needs. But for food, that's kind of like holistically what we're looking at. Now, if I'm working with a mom, that's when it becomes, okay, she has like a time barrier. She has, you know, if she doesn't have an accessibility barrier, then that's great. And so what I would say is start your child really young, get them eating a variety of foods

young so that they kind of are doing that. And then they might go through kind of like a picky stage and that's okay. Don't be like too nervous about that. But just keep offering, right? Keep offering different things. Make the food fun. There's a lot of like psychology there and some of my colleagues who really work in this like child space are really great at this. And they can like, you know, the broccoli and you can dip it in the ranch and then show that it has snow on it. Oh, fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My mom used to. throw carrots at my head and be like, missiles, duck, missiles, duck. Yeah, that's one way to do it.

Move, move, move, move. Get down, soldier. I have PTSD, but great eyesight. So maybe don't throw baby carrots that somebody said. That recommendation did not come from me. Let's not try and get, let's stay in this moment. You know you love me, Eugene. I do.

You know you love me. Okay, so make the food fun. I actually like that. Make the food fun. Yeah. Yeah. And then just, again, variety. Like getting your kids variety.

And then don't worry too much about, like, you know, if you have a strong foundation of food and you're getting all of these foods, there's room for, like, these snack foods as well. I mean, kids are going to have these foods when they're at parties and even at your house, there's room for them. There's been a lot of heat around baking. baby food and food formula, and that's like been one of the main battlegrounds. And I know you've discussed this. What is your advice around that? Like, you know, to moms who don't know, they go, I've heard that baby food is bad, and I've heard that formula is bad.

And I don't know what to do at this point. What's your advice to them? A lot of it, again, it's a vulnerable population that is easily targeted on social media with viral sensationalized content. So I think understanding that and realizing that is like the first thing. Infant formula is safe and it's healthful for babies who need it. There's, you know, lots of infant formula is actually some of the coolest science. Like I love infant formula science because like how amazing that we've been able to as best as we can replicate breast milk so that like infants can have this food source and survive, whereas they used to not survive before this existed.

Right? And so I think it's very cool where we've come. And I mean, so infant formula is safe and it's healthful for infants. And, you know, I'm a proponent of breastfeeding. I breastfed both of my children. And I think that that's wonderful. And I think it's wonderful that there is a safe option for infants who are not breastfed. So yeah, infant formula, you know, some of the biggest things that I see are like the fearmongering out there about infant formula are about the sugar source, like having corn syrup in the infant formula, and then seed oils in the infant formula. And they'll compare them to the EU. And I've done a lot of videos on this. Every single infant formula all around the world contains quote-unquote seed oils. And that's because of their

polyunsaturated fatty acid content. And so cow's milk, which is the basis of formula, is a lot lower in polyunsaturated fat than breast milk than human breast milk. And so what happens is you have to have cows milk, and then you can add in those polyunsaturated fatty acids with something like a seed oil to more closely mimic breast milk. And so that's why they're used. Again, the science is so that they were able to figure that out and like, yeah, be able to do that so that they're getting all of their, and this is really important for brain development in infants, right? So they need those polyunsaturated fatty acids. And then corn syrup is the other one, which is a sugar source. And what I would say is that... That one's been fixed, though. Trump took the corn syrup out of Coke

and it's healthy now. Yeah, so that's high fructose corn syrup. syrup, which is different than corn syrup. No, no, no, they're the same. It's all fixed. It's all fixed. It's all fixed now. No, so. This was a big thing. Yeah, it was.

This was huge. Like Trump was like, he's like, I'm getting rid of it. No more corn shit. Only sugar like Mexican Coke, but I don't want Mexicans just the Coke. I added that last part. He didn't say that. But I think he thought it. And you saw what actually happened, right?

No, what actually happened? What actually happened is Coke used it as a marketing tool. And instead of getting rid of the high fructose corn syrup, they just created one more offering that has cane sugar in their panel of offerings. But is the cane sugar one healthier for people? No. No. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

I've always heard that high fructose corn syrup is killing people. I know you have, yeah. And cane sugar, because I know what a cane, what a cane thing, like when a cane thing. A cane thing, you know. The reason why black people end up in Jamaica is. a cane thing. I apologize. Sugar cane. Sugar cane. Okay. Yes. Yes. I've seen sugar cane. I've eaten sugar cane. And then I see the sugar cane becoming sugar. I've seen it happen. Yes. The high fructose corn syrup, it doesn't seem to your point readily available. So I'm like,

how is high fructose? It actually looks processed. Yeah. It sounds. It doesn't, you can't even like making a sugar cane. Yes. So how is that possible? Okay. So high fructose corn syrup comes from corn, right? It's just sugar from corn. So we use corn to make the sugar. Whereas cane sugar, comes from a sugar can you use that to make the sugar. Whereas, you know, sugar beet, which is very popular in Europe. Yeah. Because they grow sugar beet really well. That's what they use to make their sugar. Right. So all of these are sources of sugar. So high fructose corn syrup is called high fructose because it's much higher than corn syrup. So corn syrup is 100% glucose. So anything higher than that in terms of fructose level is called high fructose corn syrup. Okay. Let me get a little bit more

in the weeds here. So high fructose corn syrup, both all of these sugars are, are a combination of glucose and fructose. Okay, got it. So glucose and fructose combined, 50%, 50% makes sugar. What we know is table sugar, right? So that's 50% glucose, 50% fructose. High fructose corn syrup is anywhere from 42% fructose to 55% fructose. Okay.

So they are metabolically, when we look at the data, the same. They're both glucose and fructose. They have no difference in terms of like their metabolic impact on a human level when we're looking at human physiology. They're both sugar sources. They're both made up of glucose and fructose, just in a bit of a different varying amount. And the difference in terms of health

is just non-existent in the literature. And so, again, and I want to explain why we use high fructose corn syrup in this country or why a lot of corporations do. Because we live in a capitalist economy where corporations are trying to maximize profit, and not necessarily to keep you unhealthy. They just don't care if you're unhealthy, right?

Like, they're like, well, they just don't care. Yeah. Yeah. They're not coming off to you. They don't care about you. And I think that that's part of like this conspiratorial idea that everyone's trying to keep people sick. But it's actually not. It's just the logical conclusion of the system that we've built, which is to prioritize profit at the expense of everything else.

Right? If your main value is profit, you're going to do things like buy the cheapest ingredients possible. In the United States, through policy, we have made corn a very cheap commodity. crop. And we do that through subsidies for commodities, and we grow corn really well here. We've also done it by putting quotas on the amount of cane sugar that can come into our country because we're trying to protect our corn farmers. And so we grow a ton of corn here, whereas it's the exact opposite in Europe. They grow a lot of sugar beet there. And they have done things like put quotas up until like 2017. They put quotas on how much high fructose corn syrup could be made there. So because of that, manufacturers are going to use the cheaper sugar, right? And And so they use a lot of sugar beats or like sugar over there, whereas we get our sugar sources from corn a lot. And so these manufacturers that are making these ultra-processed foods are trying to get the cheapest sugar product available. And that's, if cane sugar was the cheapest sugar product available, they would choose cane sugar, right? But they choose high-fructose corn syrup because it's cheap because we've made it cheap.

And so that's what's in food. And so what the problem is with high-fructose corn syrup is we are over-consuming high-fructose corn syrup because we're over-consuming sugar. If you overconsume any kind of added sugar, it's a problem. And that's why, you know, the science-based recommendation is to limit added sugars to less than 10% of your overall total calories. And over half of the country does not do that. They eat too much sugar. So there's incentivization to use the product based on where the country is and what they think. There's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that people always interact with or always have in their homes,

that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm going to do a quick fire of maybe a few. Then you tell me, yay or nay, and why the yay, right? Okay. So salt, is it a yay or nay? You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably going to be my answer to all of these, but we can see.

So good, good salt is, so now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt. Which one is good? Which one is bad? They're neither is, they're both fine. Marketing. Yeah. Sugar. Good or bad?

Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar in fruit, and fruit is a wonderful food, right? So, because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly, like, added sugar, like a soda, right? Because you're just drinking sugar with no nutrients at all. So that's kind of what you want to stay away from or limit versus just thinking sugar itself is bad. White sugar or brown sugar?

Which one is the best? They're the same. Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthy. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time and I'd be like, Mom, look, I'm being healthy. No. And then she'd throw carrots at my head. It's not any healthier.

Wow. Okay. Oil. Vegetable oil versus beef tallow. Yes. Versus olive oil maybe. Versus olive oil. Yes.

So this one gets a little bit nuanced. There's actually some great data to show like health benefits of olive oil itself. And a lot of that probably comes from it. It's mostly monosaturated fats. And it also, olive oil usually comes with nutrients as well. So if you're looking at the nutrient composition versus like vegetable oils, like you just mentioned, are very refined. So they're not going to come with any of those nutrients.

So if you want like an honest answer, just looking at the nutrient profile, olive oil wins in the nutrient profile. But when you look at like what that means from a health perspective for people to consume it, your overall dietary quality matters much more than the type of oil. that you're using. And then beef tallow is a saturated fat. And for some people, the recommendation would be to limit saturated fats, people who are, you know, at risk for cardiovascular disease, for example. So that one's going to depend a little bit on who you are and what the rest of your dietary makeup looks like. But the best epidemiological evidence we have in nutrition would suggest that

you want to limit those saturated fats and use poly and monosaturated fats, which are more like olive boils. This is a shortcut that I heard and I've been using, but I would love to know if it was true. When you're talking about the different types of fats, I read or saw once, someone said, the way it looks outside your body is the way it will turn inside your body. And it sounded great, so I believed it. No, because what I meant was like, let's say you have a stew or any type of meat that's cooked. You know, like, and the fat will, and if you leave it for a while, you see the fat harden,

it rise, but then it like hardens. Yeah. Whereas like you're saying olive oil, it doesn't harden at any point. And then I remember reading this thing, but I don't know if that's true or not. Is that an approximation for it or is this just like a shortcut that isn't really helping people? Yeah, I get where that's coming from because saturated fat is what's hard at room temperature. So unsaturated fats are not hard at room temperature. So if you think of like bacon, if you're making bacon and then you like pour the grease into a can, that'll harden once it, once it like cools down and gets to room temperature.

and that's because it's a saturated fat, whereas, like, a vegetable oil will just sit in your closet, and it's obviously oil the whole time. So, yeah, the idea is that saturated fats have been known to contribute to, like, atherosclerosis, which is, like, plaque buildup in your arteries. And so that's probably where that comes from. So there's probably saying, like, oh, because it's hard here, it's going to contribute to plaque buildup, and it's an oversimplification for sure. But I understand the rule of them.

Okay, cool. And finally, the big one, bread. Good or bad? Bread? Yes. Well, I mean, I eat bread every day. You? Yeah, I love bread.

You! I mean, look at like France and Italy. I mean, these people eat bread every day, right? So it's not bread that's bad. It's overconsumption of ultra-processed carbohydrates and things like that. But bread itself is a wonderful food source that's eaten all over the world. So it's not necessarily bad. No, I think Brett got a really bad rap, like in the United States, I think, like, in the 90s and 2000s, and then it's kind of like persisted as being some like uniquely bad food.

But I wouldn't, no, I would not say that it's bad. The milk, milk is one that always comes up. Which milk is good milk? Which milk is bad milk? Is milk even good should we be drinking milk and then should it be pasteurized or should it only be raw? okay so milk comes from a we're generally talking about cows milk because that's what's most commonly wait there's like goats milk I was saying cow milk I was saying cow milk

because you heard how he was interested in baby formula I was saying cow milk yeah okay sharp so cow milk cow milk okay yeah um again like good for people is like so subjective and so we um and like we have to like figure out what that means for somebody but milk is a very nutrient-dense food for particularly like young kids, right? So it's often recommended because it's just a way to get them calories and nutrients that are great. I will say that I think the dairy industry has really impacted our recommendations of milk. Okay.

Because it doesn't have any unique nutrients that you can't get elsewhere. So it's not like you have to have milk in your diet. For the calcium. I don't personally drink milk because I just haven't in years. but, and I can get all of the other like calcium and vitamin D and riboflavin, all of those nutrients elsewhere, and the protein and fat. But again, it's not a bad thing to drink milk. It's just a food that you can either drink or not drink and get the nutrients from or not, and it depends what the rest of your diet looks like. In terms of pasteurized versus raw, which is,

you know, talked about a lot, there's not great evidence that there's, you know, unique benefits to raw milk. I know that a lot of people say that. I haven't seen good data. to suggest that. But let's be really clear about what pasteurization is. Pasturization, because I think people might think it's like adding chemicals to milk, it's just heating milk. It's this wonderful public health advancement that we figured out, Louis Pasteur figured out 100 plus years ago, that if you just heat milk for 165 degrees for 15 seconds and then rapidly cool it, it will eliminate all of the harmful pathogens that used to get people really sick or kill them. And so it, like revolutionized the milk industry because it was like, oh, people can actually drink this

without getting hurt now. And so that's what pasteurization is. So it's just, it's just a significant way to reduce foodborne illness and pathogen risk. Okay. And then, so highly recommend pasturization. Highly recommend. Got it. Um, vitamin K. Vitamin K. Yeah. Is it vitamin K? That's like a big thing. Is it silent or is it? Vitamin hay? Sorry. No, no. That's, no. That's a lot. That was amazing. I'd like to apologize. Those are the moments where I fall in love with you again.

I wasn't against you there. I was mesmerized. That's all I was. You see how traumatized I am? Do you see how quickly I apologize? No, really. It was beautiful. Again, that's something that you see in like the Maha movement is like vitamin K, no

vitamin K, where do you get it? Where do you not? Like, when it comes to those individual vitamins, how should we even think of them? Are there people saying that to get vitamin K? It's like a, there was a movement online where they're just like, what is it doing to kids' mortality and, Ryan, do you remember the- Are you thinking of the vitamin K shot? Oh, was it? Yeah, it was a shot.

Yes, you're right. Because vitamin K is an essential vitamin that we all need. It's a fat, soluble vitamin. So I think, yeah, there's some, yes, there is, there are some videos about the vitamin K shot. So the vitamin K shot is given to newborns. Right. And it's to prevent vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so newborns don't have adequate vitamin K.

K like we do. So our bodies, our microbiomes make a bit of vitamin K, and then we get it from our diet as well. And what it does is it plays a essential role in the clotting cascade. So it allows your blood to clot if there's a bleed, so you don't bleed out. But infants don't, like newborns, don't have that ability because they don't have adequate vitamin K. And so for years and years, I mean, decades forever, you know, there was no understanding when an infant would bleed, they, you know, infants would just die and they wouldn't know why because they would have a brain bleed. A lot of them are brain bleeds. And what they found is that it's because they're deficient in vitamin K up until about six months of age when they can start consuming food

themselves, like salads and external food. And that's really the microbiomes start to start to make it. And so, yeah, for the first six months of life, they're deficient in vitamin K. And so they're at risk for this vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And what was found that if you just give infants a shot of vitamin K at birth, it completely prevents. I mean, pretty much completely prevents vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so it's given to all babies because we can't, there's no way to know which babies would have these bleeds. Right. And so in order to prevent that, you give a vitamin K shot to these babies. This, I mean, this shot has been given all around the world since the 1960s now. So we have a lot of data to look at it safety. And it's one of, I mean, it's incredibly safe

shot for newborn babies. Supplements is the last thing I'll ask you about because that has just become, I mean, you have to, you got to wake up and are you taking your, your collagen, are you taking your lion's mane, you're taking your, this, and you're taking me, what did you give me that look when I said lines me? Are you taking your, but it's just like everything has become a supplement. Yeah, you're adaptogens and it's like, are you not taking them? And this is what, there's free radicals.

You have to stop or invite the free radicals. I never know which one it is, but there's an industry that's making a lot of money telling people that they're not getting the nutrients or the supplements that they need. And ironically, by the way, a lot of the people around RFK sell these supplements. And now he's, yeah, and he's proposing changing a lot of the laws to accommodate their supplements to be sold in places where they weren't allowed or they weren't allowed in the way that they're trying to, whatever it might be. but I see a lot of people going,

oh, should I be taking these supplements? Should I not be taking these supplements? What am I lacking? What am I on? What's your view on supplements as a nutritionist? Yeah, so I think supplements are an incredibly profitable area for a lot of people. So, you know, you mentioned that a lot of people, like within RFK's realm, really sell supplements. And that's true.

I mean, the wellness industry is a multi-billion, hundreds of billions of dollars industry. It's this huge, massive industry. And what you'll find is a lot of people who are selling supplements will kind of play into this narrative, like, you can't trust big pharma and you can't trust traditional medicine because they're out for money. And then they'll turn around and kind of like sell you all of these supplements that is also a very profitable for money industry, right? And so it's interesting that like wellness seems to kind of like fly under this radar as this altruistic thing when really, I mean, the profit that these people, the profit margins are huge on supplements. And so they're making a lot of money by getting you to be like, I don't trust pharma. I don't trust experts. I'm going to only trust like these supplements.

And I think it's really important for people to kind of identify that playbook that a lot of people do use. Like don't trust these industries, which by the way, pharmaceutical medications, and there are problems with pharma. Don't get me wrong. We can talk about those. But the pharmaceutical medications are highly regulated by the FDA. They have to go through multi-stage clinical trials to make it to market.

And then stage four, they're assessing them when they're assessing them when they're, they're in the market, whereas supplements do not have to go through that rigorous process. Supplements actually have a long history that dates back to heavy lobbying from the supplement industry and politicians that were working with the supplement industry, not allowing the FDA to have that regulatory oversight that they wanted to have. And so now supplements don't even have to show that they're effective or safe before coming to market. And so we see that, I mean, and we we see issues with supplements all the time. There's plenty of issues and a lot of liver issues in people as well.

And so I think when you're thinking about supplements, I think it's important to understand that it's a very profitable market that people want less regulated than it already is. Right. Whereas, whereas, and it's oftentimes the same people who are complaining about the regulation of food additives, but then don't,

don't ever mention the lack of regulation of supplements, dietary supplements. And so it's important to know. that how profitable it is because that's the incentive for people to constantly tell you that you need these supplements. So I think there's a place for supplements. I'm not saying that all supplements aren't necessary. There's certainly, I mean, there's wonderful supplements like prenatal supplements and, you know, vitamins and minerals that will directly like, directly contribute to removing deficiencies from people. But a lot of the supplements that are coming

out that are like flashy and exciting, there's not strong data or evidence to suggest that they're effective, effective at all, actually. And so, you know, people can say they'll run like, even some companies will do their own clinical trial, right? And that will be like the one trial and it'll be this one study that they say like was super effective. And it's like nobody critiques that. But then like you're critiquing the pharmaceutical industry for running clinical trials.

It's just, it doesn't really make any sense. And so, you know, just being aware of that and being aware that a lot of supplements are just very expensive urine at the end of the day. Wow. Ah, Maraya, sometimes, you know, I think you're going to hit it there and you take it a step further. Wow. That was, I love that.

That's a great way to think of it. You've been around us for too long. I really, really like that. Okay, so this has been a nice, thank you. This has been a great path. No, no, no. We always end on urine. Yeah.

Always. Golden rule. Golden rule. Always end. Always. Always. Always. Always.

Sometimes? Because, no, you. You've given us, like, a perfect path to follow here, which is imperfect, which I think makes it perfect. And it's like, the most important ones for me were if someone's selling you something and they're telling you about your health, just be a little skeptical, right? Because if they're saying they've got the solution and they're going to get money from you, be a little bit skeptical. If they start with fear first? If they start with fear, that's the other one. They're killing you.

You're killing your kids. Are you hugging your children? You're killing them. Be skeptical. another one that was very important was just try eat the foods if I heard you correctly is like eat the foods the way they look

essentially so it's like the beans are the beans and try and get the bread the bread that is the least processed and trying you know portion sizes this was a good one as well the sugar is sugar right so you're not dodging it

the sugar it just has a different accent there's the European sugar that was like sugar and then this one's like sugar yeah but it's all sugar Okay. And also, if an expert is not surrounded by a community of other experts to take questions that they don't... I like that.

If they block you and they don't answer you, then you also know, that's a shortcut. I like this. This is good. This is really good. Also, when you're growing strawberries in Utah. Yeah, it might not work out for you. I would also just say, just to kind of like cap it, the fundamentals of health, we have really good strong data for them. And they're pretty basic and pretty boring.

And so that doesn't play well to social media algorithms. And so social media algorithms really prioritize getting you confused and getting you to think there's a lot of like back and forth in the nutrition space or in the health space when really the fundamentals are have been pretty consistent for decades. So we need to start a TikTok page where we do all of these things, but just like advertising like apples and stuff. Yeah, they should be. We just make it edgy.

Yeah, yeah, we just like we just go and we make edgy claims. Did you know they've been hiding apples from you? you do apples do you know there's a secret ingredient and apples is good and we just do this for everything we could be the change that we want to see in the world this is this is fantastic definitely this has been really wonderful thank you thank you for taking the time with two idiots because I think there are so many in the world who feel like idiots in this space and then because of that they don't get to ask the questions that lead them to the answers and I think that's what's made you so popular online and now in other spaces as well so thank you for taking the time with us I

appreciate it thank you for having me yeah don't forget to throw carrots at your kids' head. That's another thing we learned from me. This was fun. Thank you so much. Thanks. Nice one. I really had a great time. You're good.

Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. You guys are fun. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanazzi. Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer.

Our development researcher is Marcia Robioux. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?