What Now? with Trevor Noah - Harris v. Trump: The Day After with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Donald Trump will be president again. Trevor, Christiana, and Josh are joined once again by Tressie McMillan Cottom to puzzle through whether Trump won this election, or Harris lost it. Plus, they offer their picks for the best post-election playlist ever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So I've been thinking of every different way to start this conversation and I thought, why not start it with a feeling? If you were to choose a song for the moment that you're experiencing right now post-election, what song would you pick? Because I've had a few spinning in my head and I feel like this is like something that I know part of it is an ADHD brain, but I always wake up with songs playing in my head, but I started to notice that there's a correlation between the song and the latent emotion that I'm experiencing. And two of the songs, I Will Survive has been playing and not even just for me, but for everyone. I don't know why, but you know me, Christiana,

I'm the eternal optimist. So, I Will Survive has been blaring in my head. And then the other one has been living in America. That's all that's been going on. But if you were to pick one song right now for this moment for how you feel, what would it be? I'll go after Tressie. Because Tressie's been up all night. She's been up more than anyone else.

So I feel like you have more songs. You know, you think people are your homies. And you see what happens when you're with them. She's been up more than anyone else. So I feel like you have more songs. You think people are your homies and you see what happens. For whatever reason, Trevor, when you said this, I had nothing in mind. You have no music in your head. That's how bad it is? No, but the minute you said it, for whatever reason, all I could hear it was, America,

I only wanted to see you crying in the purple rain. Wow. Purple rain. Wow. I don't know, it just, you know that moment in purple rain when you're crying, but you don't know why, I'm not sure who the song's about,

I'm not sure why it's so sad, but it feels like a eulogy. It feels like a eulogy. It feels like a eulogy. Josh? Yeah? Okay. Which J Cole song is in your head right now? Wow.

Wow. I, there's more to me than that. I have Diana Ross's, I'm Coming Out. Because I think that, Oh! I think that to a certain degree, now, That's good. People know.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's light okay we can't act like we don't know I think this is the last time while at least the people alive now are alive that they can act shocked oh damn okay I like this I like this good all right Christiana good what's your song oh my god it's gonna sound so pretentious. That's why I'm like afraid throw it Everything is lost anyway. Throw it in Well the Pentecostal in me the first song was like no weapon by Fred Haan There's like no weapon formed against me shall prosper, but that's like what I feel like when somebody Speeds past me in traffic. So I don't know if it's like for this moment and there's's a Waltz by Chippon in C Sharp Minor that I love.

It's a very romantic and sad song. And I played it during the pandemic and it came up today. So that was that kind of my mood. Damn, I hate to sound like. No, no, no. That I mean, that was that a song from Bridgerton. I don't know if it's in Bridgerton, but it's like it's like one of his most famous movements. Oh, wow. Once people say what Kia song is in, I can tell they read.

That's what people do that read. They know the keys of songs. That is it. I remember realizing how far I am from Sophisticated when Alicia Keys' album came out, Songs in a Minor, and I thought that she was saying songs in a minor like she was a young child growing up and that's what the songs were and then like somebody said it one day and they're like songs in a minor and I was like yeah songs in a minor and they're like no in a minor and I was like oh man I'm very far from going to the opera. My favorite fact about the album is that most of the songs are not in A minor. Oh, shame! That's just like, you know, bitch.

But maybe this is why progressive lose elections, because they're so pretentious, right? You're fact checking an Alicia Keys album. The country doesn't want that. truly be the golden age of America. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. So welcome everybody, welcome to all of you, my friends, and welcome to everybody who is listening and joining us for our first post-election podcast. Donald J. Trump won the election in case you didn't know this. It's pretty insane. I'm in Australia now. I was in New Zealand when the results came out, and it's wild how this is like an international election in a way that like growing up, we knew who America's president was, but we didn't

follow the election the way we did. I was in New Zealand watching New Zealand TV in Auckland and they were talking about Maricopa County. Do you understand how strange it is listening to people and they're like, and if you, if you look at the results coming out of DeKalb, it looks like Trump's really surging right now. And this could be a moment in time when the Trump president and you're just like, I'm in New Zealand and these people are as transfixed by this thing as everybody else.

You know, it's funny, Tracy, I was thinking back to our conversations. I was thinking back to your writing and I went back and I read like everything that you, I guess it was a conversation that you did for the New York Times five days before the election. And as much as you were trying to like give us hope, when I look at your words, you were basically just telling us, weren't you? You just told it, you kept on saying, it's not looking good.

Well, you know, it's really tough. My job is to tell things as truthfully as I can. I try to do that well and sometimes beautifully, that's all I can manage. But when emotions are high, like they were during this election, even I feel a little responsible for people's emotional well-being. And I knew that it wasn't that people were following the polls. It wasn't that people, I think, were looking at the foundational issues, I don't think they were looking at the fundamentals. This was an emotion driven response. So when my friends and my peer group who, you know,

spoiler alert, are overwhelmingly liberal and left, were turning to me and going like, you know, what do you think? I knew they didn't mean really, what do I think? They meant make me feel better. Right? Like people. This was a moment when people needed church and unfortunately, enough of them don't go to church. They were just looking for some secular preaching. And the problem is that I'm not a great preacher. But yes, that was me doing my best to say, well, there's hope over yonder and in the by and the by. I mean, I don't know. I didn't know what else to say. Yeah, but you, you know, you, you said the thing and you said it time and time again,

you said it's not looking good. And, and maybe this is the, this is the first thing that I wanted us to all talk about, you know, because post-election and you know, Josh, you and I speak about this all the time for sports and for the elections and everything else. I love how everybody reverse engineers everything to match the conclusion. I saw pundits on TV, on the news, talking about why Harris was going to win and why Trump was going to lose. And then a day later saying, well, I'll tell you why Harris was always going to lose and she did everything wrong and, and Trump did everything right. And, and I just go like, what do you think happened here?

Do you think Donald Trump won the election or do you think Kamala Harris lost the election? Um, Oh, that's a great question. Try a great way to frame it too. Yeah. I will probably have like the least critical analysis. I'll just go first so that everyone can forget my answer.

It's going to be the best answer. Watch this. I do- Exactly. Under-deliver, over-promise Josh Johnson. No. 2028, I'm voting for you. Really just handed you exactly as I see it.

Really whelming you. So basically, I think that it was a little bit more about Harris losing, or at least that's going to become the story of it. And she lost more votes than losing to Trump. She lost to like the memory of Joe Biden, who we weren't excited about when that was happening. We were like, that guy's not well when he ran the first time. It was like a thing that people whispered. And so I think that there's also going to be a thing for Dems. I think that Dems have more to assess and learn and people to listen to than like Republicans do because you learn the least when you win and

And I think that's actually what sets people up to lose next time because they're like no, we'll just do win again We do more. Yeah, I mean that is yeah, I'm serious. That was brilliant See, I think Trevor's right you You way. Josh, I know, I know Josh Johnson. I know. Let me tell you something. I know Josh Johnson. If my life was in danger and I called five people and four of them said, we'll save your life, Josh would say, I don't know if I can help, but I'll try. That man is showing up with a rope and he's pulling me out of that cabin. Let me tell you something now. I know Josh Johnson. Under promise, over deliver. That's what he does.

I'm running your polls, Josh. You see, I predicted this. No, no. You know, it's funny that you say that. I couldn't help feeling that, and I don't wanna say something that's too prescriptive about American politics forever, but it feels like America has gotten to the place

where its politics is exactly like sports in that teams only show up when it's an elimination game. And if the players don't feel like it's an elimination game, people don't show up. Do you know what I mean? So when I think of like Trump 2016, his people played like it was an elimination game. Like for real, for real, they showed up,

they were like, this is the end of everything. Remember, they had been coming out of eight years of Obama where they saw the end of their lives. They were like, we are fighting for the future of this country. This is it, it's over. And they voted accordingly, right? Then when Trump was in power,

his people are like, yeah, he's in power. And then everyone else is voting for Biden because it's COVID and everyone's like, we have to vote because otherwise we're all gonna die. We are literally all gonna die in our apartments scrubbing packages because Fauci told us to. And then now Trump's people again are like, it's the end. Like you saw the Rogan, I don't know if you watched the Rogan interview with Elon Musk,

I found really interesting because it was a very like somber mood. It wasn't like a bro-y thing. They were very much like, this is the end of democracy and if we do not make this moment last, if we do not make this thing count, this will be the last time we ever see an election ever again.

And I feel like they voted like that. And then Kamala's people were just like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, you know? I don't know. I don't know, you know, I Don't know I Your original question about like did Kamala lose or Trump win I Feel a lot of voters that went for Trump didn't necessarily vote for him They throw it as an FU to the Democrat establishment Wow you you think that many? Absolutely, I think that like the problem

with the Democrats is that they think they're better but they won't admit that they think they're better. Right. Fake humility is worse than arrogance. Fake humility is worse than arrogance and I think that they are sick of being spoken down to about the wrong things. I think they're sick of their concerns being dismissed, whether these concerns are over like immigration, over economy, over quote unquote black jobs. And the Democrats have never kind of taken that seriously. They've kind of like, you know, Obama came out and wagged his fingers at black men

in a way that I thought was not appropriate. And I think enough people are tired of that to either stay at home. I think Palestine was another issue as well. They're like, we're going to stay at home. Like, you're not going to hold my vote for ransom. And they were saying more F you to the Democrats than that they love Trump. But I think Trump now has made it so that he's probably one of the most consequential

American political figures since maybe Reagan, Roosevelt. I think he'll go down in history as that for good and for bad, right? But that I think we can make it all about Trumps, but we're missing that the alternative have failed terribly. And as Tressie, as you said last week, like it's not enough to say we're not Trump. And that's what they were telling people. And that was not enough. It sounds like you're saying Kamala lost for you. Like she lost... Do you know what?

Well, this is the thing. I want to push back on that because I feel like they handed the black woman the poison chalice and now we're supposed to throw her under the bus and say, and I'm like, no, Nancy Pelosi and all those elites, they lost. And she was a figurehead. Okay. So then do we want to say the Democrats lost? I say the Democrat establishment completely lost. And she was a figurehead. Okay, so then do we want to say the Democrats lost? I say the Democrat establishment completely lost.

And I think they became complacent when Biden won, right? They became very complacent. And Biden was supposed to run again. They didn't do primary. There's so many things that they did wrong. But I just don't want to say like Kamala lost. I'm like, no, the old guard who Obama is now part of, right? The old guard of the Democrat party,

I believe they lost collectively because they're completely out of touch with what Americans want. And Trump, even if it's to their lower impulses, he knows how people feel. One, thanking you, Christiana, for saying, I also really want to push back on DiCamo loose. Again, as somebody who is on record saying,

I thought she was an imperfect candidate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I also know from both research and my own lived experience that it is really easy and convenient for everybody to blame the black woman. And so I just, you know, always want to stand on that. Having said that, I talked to a lot of people in the run up to this election who should have been excited. And when I say excited, I think people thought I meant enthusiastic. But Trevor, I mean excited like you mean, which is that they felt a sense of urgency. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They felt a sense of collective will and collective responsibility. And they were not scared of

a day after Trump's reelection. No. The Democrats assumed that saying Trump could be reelected was self-evident. That saying that in and of itself was going to be so cataclysmically bad and people would remember how bad it was and remember it the way they think they should remember it, to the point of arrogance, by the way. I think there's a lot of hubris and arrogance in that. And instead, I talk to like, and not just like leftists who were mad on policy issues, I talk to Democrats or should be Democrats who were like,

Trump wins. Is my life really that much different than it is today? That's a problem for Democrats who were running not on a platform promoting why Kamala was a better candidate, but promoting why Trump was dangerous. If that's the drum you're beating, then people need to feel the urgency of that danger. I kept saying, I'm not seeing it. I'm talking to people who should be terrified, including women, young women who should be terrified post-Dobbs, and they weren't. Lots of reasons, I women, young women who should be terrified post-Dobbs. And they weren't. And lots of reasons, I think, for that.

But the Democrats did not respond to the right emotional impulse that people had. And so people, listen, I think Tuesday or the week before the election can roll around and you can intend to vote. You can think voting would be pretty good, pretty decent to do. But that's not the same kind of urgency that I think a first black woman candidate with a three month long campaign needed. She needed people to feel like if I don't go vote, I'm going to die. And they didn't.

I mean, one thing to really back up everything that Tressie is saying, there's messaging that cannot all be left to one person. I think that by and large, most of the people that I talked to, we lost on the economy. And it feels crazy that Dems lost on the economy because all of at least the public billionaires are backing Trump.

So if you are a poor person and life is not going well for you and inflation is chasing you. Cause I even, I've even talked about this with friends. Inflation, especially when we talk about inflation during Halloween, inflation is the killer with the knife. And you, as the person who is broke, are the person running with a broken heel. So you see in the movie,

when you're running with a broken heel and inflation not even bothering to run inflation walking behind you Because they know what they're gonna get you eventually It's all the rich people who are the track stars who already got away that are like that's terrible Right if all the public billionaires are backing a supposed billionaire Telling you they're gonna make the economy better for you and you believe that that that, that is some true short-sightedness because as Dems, you could be like, listen, I'm not even gonna go after the billionaires

because I know those are the billionaires y'all like. I'm gonna go after, you talk about eggs, right? Price of eggs, okay, it's over for Walmart. We're not gonna let Walmart price gouge you anymore. And I think that that is a thing that was like so, that could have been so consequential because that's something that is not at all divisive. Who likes the prices of their eggs being hot?

You know what I mean? So there were little things like that party wise. That's like, you could have attacked this thing because what a lot of Republicans did is be like, listen, they're gonna make your kids gay and trans. These people are the enemy, whatever. You can't enemy the enemy all the time, but you can make an enemy out of an actual entity

that is hurting you. And that's when you could have been like, he wants to do this for the economy, that tear of things not gonna work. The price gouges are what we're gonna take out. So here, I agree with you fundamentally, but this is where I come back to what Christiana started this conversation on. Chopin in what was it? C major? C sharp. C sharp minor.

So here's what I feel about this. And I've had this feeling since from the time I was hosting The Daily Show, and you remember sitting there, Josh and Christiana, and us sitting in these rooms, watching the debates, et cetera. I still say it till this day. I think we take for granted that most people who are voting do not have access to the answer nor the vocabulary of the answer that like the skilled people have. Do you get what I'm saying? So I agree with you, Josh, but the difference between the two people is like, if you said to Donald Trump, hey, Donald Trump, eggs are expensive.

Do you know what Donald Trump said? He came out and he's like, when I'm president, eggs are going to go down. We're going to take the prices down, folks. I'm going to bring your energy bill down by 50%. You hear me? 50%. No one said how, no one said why. He just said I'm gonna do it and then they say how are you gonna do it then he says tariffs. I'm gonna make them pay more and now economists go oh no you see a tariff you if you just apply a tariff like this what's gonna happen is that you've got supply and demand and then on

the outside you the tariff we are actually paying for, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But people on the ground were like, yeah, he's gonna make China pay for my eggs. Now, if you know how to play the piano, and you know what C sharp minor is, you're gonna look at Trump, quote unquote, singing the song or playing the song, and you're like, that doesn't make sense, he's off key, but for the person in the street,

for most people I would argue, what I call the layman, the difference is most people are hearing this as, ah, this person knows music and they can sing. This person just said C sharp minor. I don't know what that is. And I don't even know who this Chopin rapper might or might not be. I don't keep up with it. What I do know is this person gave me an answer. And now I'm not just saying Kamala and Trump, by the way.

I'm using them as like the stars of the teams, Jason Tate and LeBron James. Let's say that it's the Democrats and the Republicans. One thing throughout this race that the Republicans did well was they distilled it down to an issue that you could identify with, and they made it seem simple

in how they were gonna fix it. Whether or not it will be fixed is almost irrelevant, but it was a lot easier to understand as opposed to the levers of an economy that no one understands about. No one really understands those things. Yeah, I think the Republicans have a long history of having elites that know how to play the fool.

Because no one is more elite than Donald Trump, no one is more elite than George Bush in terms of their education. He's not playing the fool though, but let's carry on. These are like boarding school Ivy League. No, no, no. Who's not paid? Neither Bush or Trump. Donald Trump is a simple man.

Donald Trump, he's from money, but he's a simple man. That man cannot break down a complicated concept for you because it's complicated to him. He's a simple man. That man cannot break down a complicated concept for you because it's complicated to him. He's a simple guy. Sure, but I think he's probably more exposed than the people he's speaking to at his rallies. But he's not saying that this is like a Brioni suit that is custom, even though it looks like shit. He's putting that aside, right? Which George Bush was very good at, hence why they wanted to have a beer with him.

These people are far more calculating than I think we give them credit for, and they're populist, and I think the Democrats for a long time have believed that's beneath them. So they're going to say C-sharp minor rather than it's a good song. Yeah, it's catchy. Do you know what I mean? And my issue is that we've let these people stay in power for so long because the funny thing about Trump is people forget he has hijacked the party. We don't know what comes after him, but he just hijacked it and he's pulled it to the right. And I feel now the Democrat Party is up for the taking, you can burn it down, and you

can hijack it and pull it to the left with populist language. Just like my limited understanding in the time I've lived here, I've seen swings and it's a country that enjoys to swing. I think Trump is the yin to Obama's yang. So now it's, it's up for the take, like AOC and like those, the squad, they can burn it down and do whatever. And I think that's what needs to come next. That the establishment just needs to be raised because they can't win. They don't know how to do it. But there is an incredible opportunity.

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. As an African, I think we should never take for granted the possibility of somebody leading long after they're technically the leader. And I think Trump, you see what you said is very important. He has hijacked the Republican Party, right? I see a world, a possibility where he went, he's won now, obviously. He's won, he's president. Maybe he does 22nd Amendment, maybe he doesn't. I think that's less likely, but I can see a world

where he becomes kingmaker of the Republican Party for as long as he's copious, mentist, and alive and savvy. Where he says, where he basically goes, you are now going to vote for JD Vance, and I'm technically not running, but this is my thing, and his people will still go with him. For what he will. You don't think so, Joe?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you- Oh, I think it's gonna be the inverse. I think he's gonna be Mugabe. Yes, I think if you look at some of the Senate races, I think that like, there's one thing when Trump is coming to town, it is like when the pop star is coming to town.

So if there's a rally for the candidate and the pop star is like, oh, they're doing a feature, they're opening for me, that's cool for the day. And if that's very close to the election, then I think it does swing some ways. But like if you don't have Trump's swag, you're not going to carry Trump's torch. And I think that we saw a little bit of that in 2022 that if you're uncharismatic ... Tiki torch, exactly. If you're uncharismatic enough and if you don't know what to do next, you're possibly looking to Trump for real policy, you're going to drown yourself. I agree with this, which is that Trump... It's on the record that Trump is actually a horrible endorsement to get, right?

He does not positively influence down-ballot racists. So most of the candidates that he endorses lose badly. But running for president is actually, I think, a slightly different beast. So like, no, I don't think he can be a kingmaker for governors. Goodness, no. He doesn't have the level of detail and follow through necessary to get into the weeds of state and local politics and the intricacies of things like that. What he has proven can happen, however, with presidential politics.

And I think he has changed this probably for my lifetime, y'all. I think he's changed it because what he has done is he has stress tested the system and said this is what you can get away with and still win. The structure of electoral politics in this country set up for a two party system. It doesn't matter how bad one of those parties is. Doesn't matter how undemocratic one of those parties is. So at the presidential level, he has also proven you can kind of shock in awe with presidential politics in a way that you cannot

in a state or local race. And state and local races, those people have to live there, right? Like there's only so much a governor can do when his kid still goes to school down the street and he starts to, you know, he starts to live there. At the presidential level, you're voting for personality in a way that you aren't in local and state races, which is why I think Trump doesn't translate well into those races. But unfortunately, presidential politics has become basically a competition of characters and wrestling characters, right? I don't think people, to Christiana's point, really care about policy. They care that somebody knows the policy,

to a certain extent. But you're right. I don't think people want to get into the weeds. I think that is absolute hubris on Democrats' part, that if they just sit people down with enough white papers, they'll get them to understand. Trump is understood intuitively, by the way. I don't think this is really like a conscious strategy,

but he understands intuitively that what people want is they want to feel good. And that is actually good enough in presidential politics to not maybe run the board, but certainly to build you a base. And that's what presidential politics need. They need a base. So I can see a future where there's a JD Vance

with a Trump in the shadow who adds the messaging, because he is very good at the messaging. JD Vance is not, he sucks at it. Very, very good. JD Vance is good at strategy. He knows how to win and he knows how to govern something that Donald Trump is not good at doing. And I actually think that you put those two things together and that presidential level, Trump can still be quite a kingmaker. He also can bring the money to the table and in presidential politics, money matters so

much. And this, you know, unholy alliance with people like, you know, Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, I think it would matter in presidential politics. That's so interesting because I don't know, maybe this, maybe it's why I feel so zen about it because I think he's going to destroy himself in the way that Nixon did because of his deep seated insecurity. But I think if we look at the, because we're focusing on the fact he won, he was incredibly sloppy.

He wasn't as sharp. He wasn't the same Trump that, you know, came down that escalator. Um, and my feeling is, is that he's going to decline because he's 78 years old and there's only so much evil and petty that can keep you strong for that long. It is. And when I say it's going to be Mugabe, they're going to, in the way, what they did with Biden, you're kind of pushing this old guy out. He's a puppet and you get what you want behind the scenes.

I just think it's just age is going to catch up with him. And I think we're already witnessing a lot of his cognitive decline and his sloppiness, which is a scary thing. Wait, you actually, you think that? I'll be honest with you. I don't see that. Yeah, I do. I don't see like... He wasn't as sharp. He wasn't see that. Yeah, I do. I don't see like.

He wasn't a sharp. He wasn't a sharp. There was a reason those people were leaving the rally. Yeah, he doesn't have troops the same way. It's not the same Trump. And that's why I say the Democrats blew it because they lost against that guy in the current state. I know he's not Pete Trump, but he is still formidable.

I don't. Yeah. No, I agree., but he is still formidable. I don't, yeah. No, I agree. I agree he's formidable. I mean, it's kind of like, I don't know, a boxer. I'm terrible with sports analogy. I will leave it to Trevor and Josh. I think he is in decline, but even in decline, he could beat Blue. And that says a lot about the state of Blue.

That's just kind of my idea. Exactly, exactly. That I agree with completely. I would argue that Trump hasn't gotten sloppy. I think that Trump is Trump. He's just, the guy really put the work in for this like election. The guy was like flying between multiple stops.

He was doing multiple shows. He was scared to go in the jail. He wanted to win. He was at multiple rallies. Exactly, that was a hell of a motivation. Him and his January 6th people are like, all right, we're fighting for our lives here. Him and his January 6 people are like, all right, we're fighting for our lives here. And you know better than anyone, Josh, you and I both, we talk about this all the time. When you're a comedian, you're on the road.

You have your jokes, you have your set, you're doing your thing. There's a fine balance between doing the show that you're doing and working the new stuff that you hopefully want to become something great over time. Like you have to watch out for how sloppy you could become if you took every gig that comes your way because it's inevitable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you are in decline. You know what I mean?

But I think that like what you're saying is like, if you tour enough and if you're doing enough, then like it starts to all sort of get mushy. I think the actual mush is coming from one, even his base is kind of used to him at this point. There's not as much shock and awe to the shock and awe. So the shock and awe is more become, we're shocked that he doesn't care that his things translate into the real world faster than they ever have, because that's what's happening. So he says they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, and we laugh at them, right?

Because that's what we're used to from 2016. But when the bomb threats come in the next day, that's where we're like, oh, wow, not only are people bold, they're reacting faster. Like the whole anti-immigrant stuff with Mex Mexicans it took a little while and took him winning for it to get really bold now This took like three days, right? and I think that that shock and awe is more an attitude than it is what he's saying and I think that that's where people like are starting to fall off of him So I get what you're saying

But I agree with Christian, a little bit more, where even if it's not cognitive decline, we're getting so used to Trump that it becomes like, you're not surprised anymore. No, that's, yeah, that's valid. I agree with all of this. But when we say Trump, see, I think that Trump is more than Donald J. Trump.

And so, he's 78 and he may be slowing down a bit. And I agree that his material is getting slow, but y'all I looked at that RNC, I looked at that Republican National Convention and homeboy has a bench, right? His family alone, we keep talking about his relationship with JD Vance, but his son is the one who brought JD Vance into the fold.

Yes. That you know, Trump is now a style of politicking. It is a dynasty like the Bushes were. Obama, coincidentally, has not managed to build. That's part of the reason why the Democrats are suffering. We were supposed to be transitioning to a new dynasty and it's not there, but Trump is actually presenting one. It is that daughter-in-law, that creepy Laura

girl. Sorry. And then it's that. And that's before we get to the acolytes that are in the Senate. The Matt Gaetzes of the world, for example. Trump is now a style of politics. And when I say that Trump owns the GOP, I mean both the man and again, what he has proven as possible for other people in his mold and who are quite committed to him. I was just talking to somebody yesterday, not a Trump supporter, but who has worked with him in a professional capacity.

And he's like, what people miss is that the people in Trump's inner circle are loyal to him. Yeah, very. They like that man because he's good to them in the way that they understand transactionally, but it's good to them, right? And so I think we're dealing with a Trump entity for the foreseeable future, whether Trump declines or not. And so when I say that there's a kingmaker, I think kissing the ring,

whichever one of the Trumps is wearing the ring at the moment, right? It'll be in his image. Like Trumpism as an ideology, I feel that it's lasted longer than I've anticipated. And you're seeing flashes of it all over Western Europe. Because now you're like, oh, I can lie. Double down on the lie. Say it's fake news and it didn't happen. So it's even in our common language. It's funny, I actually came around to what I think your point is, and I think I may agree with you.

So it's funny, I think sports is a perfect analogy for most things because it's like, it has such a particular structure and support that matches up with politics. And so forgive me for going to sport, but I think of it like this. In every sports league, especially when sports are like the leagues are young, there are generally one or two teams that define the league, you know? So in basketball, there'll be like a few teams. They'll be like, oh, it's the Lakers and it's the Celtics. And those are the teams and they define the game. And that's what the game is.

You know, in soccer, it'll be the same, depending on which country you're in. They'll be like, this is the team. It's Manchester United and it's Arsenal. These are the teams that. And then what happens is, like in basketball, for instance, Steph Curry comes along. Yeah. Steph Curry comes along.

Steph Curry comes along and breaks the game of basketball in a way that nobody ever anticipated. He goes, actually, you don't need to go to the rim all the time. You should just shoot the ball from far. And statistically, it actually is going to work out better for you. And then it grows and it grows and the Golden State Warriors gets better and better. And the next thing, you know, it's not just Steph. Now it's Steph and it's Clay. And I remember the basketball world going, what has happened here? We knew basketball and now we don't. And to your point, Cristiano, you thought that it would disappear

until we saw quote-unquote big men now shooting three-pointers. Now the guys that used to say that their game was all about going to the rim, they started shooting threes and the game started evolving. And I argue the game of basketball has never been the same ever since, right? And so in a weird way, I think of it here, is like Trump- Like the renegade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what he did was he came from the inside like a parasite taking over its host. So he didn't go, he didn't make the mistake Jill Stein made of saying like, I'm not in the system.

He's like, no, no, no, I'm fully in the system. I am a Republican. I am a Republican. Republicans come with me. And then he said the things and now Republicans didn't have to say, do we choose between a Republican or Donald Trump? They said, no, I like this version of a Republican. And so now to your point, Christiana, I argue that the Republican party is out of

politics in America and the Trump party is now in, it's a two party system. It's the Democrats versus the Trumps. And so to your point, there is an opportunity for somebody to come in and do to the Democratic party, what Trump did to the somebody to come in and do to the Democratic Party what Trump did to the Republican Party and take it over from the inside. Bernie had a moment of it, but maybe he wasn't like the right candidate and the right everything. But there's definitely a moment and an opportunity for somebody to do that, to come in and say, I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we should close the border.

Or I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we aren't going to support Israel. I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we should close the border. Or I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we aren't going to support Israel. I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why. And they, whatever those things are that they string together, they may be able to take over the host from the inside. And then in the future, we'll look back and go, oh, remember the Republicans and Democrats, quote unquote. But really, America's parties constantly change. Yes.

We just don't realize what dynasty we're in. So we say it's the Democrats unless the Republicans, but it's not. We are now in the era of the Trumps and the- Whoever it's going to be. I guess the vacancy after Obama's. That's a huge part of the problem. Listen, I just finished saying at the top of the show that I don't like to blame a black woman for everything.

Maybe I don't have this problem with black men and I'm going to work on that with my side of my own soul later after the show. I do think that part of what was supposed to happen did not happen and the void that was left in the Democratic Party, some of that, yes, by Obama's transition, but also the Democrats cleared the deck in that party to make way for Hillary Clinton to run as the candidate that year. And some of the way they cleared the deck was, I think, offensive to some people. So you look around, for example, and I kept asking people, where's Castro?

Where's like, I was naming all these people from like just six years ago, and they're like basically gone within the party. That was an entire bench of people who were supposed to be that infrastructure of this is the new container for Democrats, right? But to your point, Cristiana, we have had these moments in time before on both sides. It's just that I think that our time for this generation was supposed to be Obama. And if it didn't happen, I worry a little bit that that tends to be like a once-in-a-generation kind of thing, right? I remember Clinton, for example. Clinton was my first, like, you know, the first American president I was aware of. And Clinton was that type of game changer.

He remade the, I'm sorry, the first Clinton, I'm sorry. He remade the Democratic Party over in the image of Reagan. He said, you can stay a Democrat, but still like these things that Ronald Reagan liked, and I'm gonna give it to you in these cool, funny Southern stories. That's literally his whole magic. And yes, a once in a lifetime kind of politician and a communicator, but that's what he did.

Obama came along and kind of teased that, promised that a new Obama coalition that wasn't just supposed to be a coalition of the electorate, it was supposed to be a new coalition of the party itself. When that sort of crumbles because they demoralized because Trump wins and it was a deeply racist response to his presidency to be fair. And I suspect that was traumatic, but we didn't rebuild after that. And I'm not sure that

you'd get another chance. That's not an every four years kind of thing is what I'm saying. I think you have to have the infrastructure to build those people up. And when they cleared the debt, you're talking about building a championship winning team. Yes, I am. I think it Sure, that sounds like exactly what I'm talking about. That's what every sports fan goes through this every few years. Oh yeah, because isn't that when Philadelphia says trust the process? Exactly. Oh, I did it. Exactly. Out here. Every few years. Every few years, there's a moment you'll be a championship winning team. And it's, there are very few teams in the world that have found, it's almost impossible, but have found a way to not go through a period of now having to

reestablish and re-identify themselves. If anything, I would argue the best teams are just the ones who can minimize the amount of time, but there will always be a moment where you, you're reconfiguring, you're rebuilding. It's a new moment. It's a new team. And then it's like, like Manchester United thought it would be short. It hasn't been.

And they're, they're suffering, you know, all over the world, all their fans, but then a team like Barcelona, they had a few seasons and now they're back playing some of the best football in the world. Liverpool is going through that period now. And it's interesting to see in sports and in politics how you have to have that ideology. You have to go, okay, we are going to lose for a little bit, but we are losing because we're building towards something. We're trying to minimize our losses while losing about what the future will be. And to your point, I think that's where people

do not give Republicans enough credit. where they lost hard with Obama, and then they said, we are now going to go to the school boards, we're now going to go to the local councils, we're going to start grinding from scratch. And for eight years while people are watching Obama, these people with Mitch McConnell are just chipping away, building up this infrastructure that then Trump infrastructure that they've put in. It's not, you know what I mean? Yes, Trump's the star player, but man, they've got a powerful team. They've got a really, really powerful team. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this.

It's also where like messaging side of like a Trump presidency, because now you can lie and you can tell big lies and then you're just not going to do anything. But I do think that if they do any of what they've been proposing, and it goes as badly as the economists and all the people who don't know how to talk to people say it will go. That's another thing that I think is very hard to come back from. And that's an opportunity for Democrats to pounce. Because it's like

this guy said his economic plan, he said to Trevor's point, we're going to do it beautiful. We don't even know what that means, but we know it's going to be pretty. Then my man has four years to do it beautiful, right? And then you're poorer than you were four years ago. So if he did it beautiful, it's ugly. And maybe he didn't do anything. That's when the Dems step in with like real messaging around like, do you feel pretty? Cause if you don't feel pretty then like. Can I? Do you feel pretty?

It's good. And that's what we're so bad at sometimes. But yeah, Trevor. Can I throw something at you though? And again, this is, I'm gonna say this with the biggest caveat up top, because I know this part is not like sports in that people's lives are affected.

So I will say that up top. If you look at America's cycle, forget like how you feel politically. You cannot deny economically. The cycle has been, Democrats have come in, fixed the economy after the eight years of it being fixed. Like just as they get to it, it's like, oh, thank you, Obama, for getting us out of the recession. People are complacent. And then they go like, actually, we want a Republican in. Republicans come in, they take a massive dump on the economy.

Democrats come in again, they fix the thing. But I don't think that Democrats have a problem winning per se or taking a moment like those opportunities. And maybe Tracy, this is something you can speak to. I want to know why it feels like Democrats are not trying to make the policies of the voters permanent when they are in power. Do you know what I mean? Why isn't Obama codifying Roe v. Wade? Why aren't they like, when they have two thirds majorities and when they have the power, why does it feel like, like when Trump said in his victory speech now,

he said, I'm going back to what I said, promises made, promises kept. And I sat there thinking, man, if you're a Trump supporter, you are having a great time. Because that man said, I'm going to build the wall. And then he pushed with all his power to build it. Now you can argue which piece wasn't built. Yo, there's wall that like is there. You know what I'm saying? When he said, I'm not going to start wars or the man you can argue, but he, even if it feels that way, it seems like he's really pushing and he's putting in the Supreme

Court justices that he said he's going to put in and he's pushing for these conservative judges across the border. But it feels like Democrats, when they do win, Josh, and they get all that power, they go, okay, we now have all the power, but now would be a good time to talk to the Republicans and ask them how they feel about us wielding our power. Mitch McConnell. But Trevor, just to push back, Biden was very progressive in ways. Like the stuff he did with student loans. Oh, I'm not saying he wasn't.

I think, I feel like Biden was actually as ballsy as I hoped Obama would be. Like there's stuff that he did that the Republicans were pushing back on hard, especially around infrastructure, et cetera. So I feel like Biden kind of breaks that in a way. No, but he doesn't, he doesn't. He comes in. Because don don't forget Biden didn't lose

Okay Okay, so this cycle that you talk about, totally, yes, a known thing, right? So Democrats with some variability tend to build up the state or build out state capacity and Republicans shrink it. What I think happens with people though, like why people don't reward the building of the state capacity that actually could possibly improve their lives. I think there's a couple of things. I think one is back to the story of that's not a fun, sexy story. You even take Biden, right? I think this was part of his challenge. Inflation was

sexier than the fact that he had pushed through the most meaningful climate change legislation that this country has managed to get off of the ground because he called it something boring. He called it infrastructure. Right? Yeah. He hit it in that. And that is the way that you make legislation work, but it is a terrible story. I say as a writer, right? Nobody wants to hear about the infrastructure bill, but it does improve your life. It's just that the dots connecting that big boring thing to your everyday life and how you feel about it, not a great story. The second thing is that people like the government best when the government works for them, but

they don't know it's the government working. So the government's got a real branding problem here, right? Everybody loves for the trains to run on time, but nobody wants to pay for trains. So again, it's a hard story to tell because they're expensive, they're slow, they take a long time. And I think that's the third and final thing I would say. Some of the big projects that we need done, especially now, these are big projects, right?

These are things that we would be voting for today. And the people voting for it probably won't see it come to fruition. Like you're probably voting for something for your kids. And like we say we do that. Oh, I'm voting for my children's future. No, we're not. People don't vote for their kids' future.

People vote. I haven't even met my kids yet. Yeah, you haven't met your kids. Like I don't even. But when kids ain't met their kids, they don't know where them kids at. They don't care. Like when it comes down to brass tacks,

I'm not coming after the parents. I'm just saying loving your kids. Oh no, come for us, Tressie. Loving your kids in theory and loving them when it comes time to vote, when you are motivated by all of your own stuff, right? It's not that the dad went in and voted against his daughter not having healthcare. Like, yeah, we get that, you know, conceptually maybe, but he's like, oh no, my kid won't have that problem as long as I can make enough money.

She doesn't have these issues. So really I'm voting my economic interests and I'ma buy her out of this whole abortion reproductive health nonsense, right? Like there's always a way, I think, for people to motivate a story about loving their kids that happens to conveniently fit their ideological priors. And so when you start coming at people

on that emotional level, and that's the kind of stuff that Democrats tend to fall back on, because again, it's hard to write and sell a sexy story about building bridges. And also, Tressie, to piggyback off you, I think that we can be frank and say that people are a bit sexist. Oh,ist. People are a bit racist. People really don't care that much about whether their neighbor can get an abortion. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, you're angry because I won't let you kill your baby.

No, yeah, that is true. They're like, you fucking made up. Yeah, yeah. Right? And so it's just like, I think Trump and Trumpism appeals to a way of life that Democrats think is way beneath them and has no place in their party, but a way of life that is very human, nuanced. And this was a culture war as much as, because the Wall Street Journal did a piece about how whoever becomes president is going to inherit one of the strongest economies America has ever had, right? That is just a fact, inflation aside.

But people really care about culture and how they live day to day. And they look at the Democrats, whichever way you put it, whether it's from race or gender or sexuality or schooling, and they're like, I don't like that. So the Democrats need to figure out a way of making who they are seem palatable. And I think Obama was really a master of that. He was like, I am all these things and I'm still one of you and you're part of me.

But the Democrats have moved away from that, right? And they need to figure out a way to get back to that and talk about these issues in a way that are really palatable because I think even issues that seem really thorny like trans rights, when you speak to someone and you break it down, they're like, huh, okay, I don't want to be mean to that person. Right? Like if you really break down what the experience is, imagine being born in the wrong body. People are like, that's messed up. Like when you put it in that language, but when you turn around to someone and the first thing you say, you're transphobic, bigger, you kind of lose them.

And so I think the Democrats really need to figure out how do we make how we speak about these life issues that people are grappling with palatable in a way that they know that being with us is being on the right side of history. Yeah. And politicians, especially people who didn't start in politics. This is why Trump does well. A lot of these people who like are calculated enough to know they want to be president by the third grade are also not good at talking to people in the third grade. So they've had they've had a lifetime of not knowing how to talk to people. And these are the most successful people who don't know how to talk to people. I really do a kid. Yeah, and it's like they always wanted to be class president.

They don't know how to talk to people and one of the things which like, Tressie, I think you and I can speak to this specifically, which I'll be interested in whether or not you agree with me, but like, there's human nature and then there's American nature. And there's something to be said for an American nature. There is this like, I think it was like Stokely Carmichael that said like one of the biggest

griffs America ever had was convincing you, you could be as rich as a Rockefeller next year. And it's like a lot of these other countries, talk about Scandinavian countries who grab countries that are doing well in this, that and the other. One of the things they don't have, they may have criminals, they may have scams, but they don't have ball out culture in that way. And a lot of Americans don't understand the difference between struggling economically and not being rich.

Because I think that there are so many people who are struggling, and we don't really care about those people by and large, either party day to day. But what we care about is making people who already have a little bit of money feel like they can have a lot of money. Cause that's like the wave. You do end up with a huge problem in communication. And that's kind of what I mean where I'm like,

eventually America and Dems especially will have to figure out how to break the mold of like this mythology that a lot of I mean if I'm being like completely blunt a lot of upper-class white Americans have which is all things being left alone I will be incredibly successful in this country and then there are people who understand the reality of competition especially black women, right? And I think that you end up in a place where if you cannot convince people

that you can help them by doing something for them, you'll keep convincing them you can help them by doing something to someone else. And eventually that won't work, but it won't work if you get the messaging right after it fails. And that's like the crucial point. Like people are actually not better off

and if all you can say, Kamala did it during one of the debates. She was like, she was so confident and she was so right that she was like, you know what I'm gonna tell you to do? Go to one of his rallies and I bet you leave early. And that's why it hurt him because it was true. Yes, and it was in his language

and in his people's register. That's exactly right. Exactly. And I think that if you as Dems get the old guard out and get the new guard in of people who are desperate, who think they're going to die and know how to talk to people. Now you can get the people who just say they're running for a Senate race, they're running for a gubernatorial race. And they're like, I want you to go home tonight. I want you to open your Chase account and I want you to look at it now and take a snapshot and then look at it in two years after I've been in office. But like that's and I think that's how you beat people.

I will be your first bundler, Josh. I know like 20 people right now with $100 laying around, I will bundle those $100 for you. Because that is the big political economy question. That's all Josh has described and I could not agree with it more. You got to solve a long, deep, hard problem for people and until you actually solve those fundamentals, which neither party is really trying to do, somebody like Trump will be able to come along and sell a story about it instead. And yes, people will eventually become disappointed, but they'll just buy another story. Yeah. Yeah.

But let me so I know we're going to need to wrap up soon, but I wanted to I sometimes think of, you know, one of my favorite movies is is The Matrix, because I just think it broke every that the genre had, it even invented a genre in many ways. And one of my favorite lines is, and one of my favorite moments really is in the movies and when Agent Smith is speaking to Morpheus, and he has this long monologue just telling Morpheus about humans and the world. And there's one part where he says to Morpheus, he says, you know, we tried to set it up perfectly. We had a world built with no pain and no suffering, but

the humans kept rejecting it. Something about it just didn't work. And he talks about how, and I know this is fictional, but like he talks about how they made a world that was perfect to trap the humans in, but then the humans rejected the world. And so then they had to make the world with as much suffering and pain as it really had. And then humans were fine being trapped in it. I know this may sound like a crazy thing to you,

but is it also possible to accept the fact that this is also inevitable? Democrats can't win forever. Republicans can't win forever. And even if we take it away from America, which sometimes helps me get a little clarity when I'm trying to think on issues, especially when they're political, go to a country where everything is pretty amazing, you know, by most standards, like a Norway, a Sweden, a wherever. In those countries, all of a sudden the political party starts losing votes. Do you know what I mean? It's like people create a new baseline, they create a new floor, they create a new level.

Is it not just inevitable? Like, is America not just going to be in this cycle forever? And like, you know, and I don't want it to seem like I'm being dismissive, knowing my being like a little Buddhist about it, but it's like... It is very Buddhist. I was thinking that the whole time. It's just so Buddhist. I do think that there's a... If you take it to an individual level, there is a cyclical nature to approaching politics

because everyone who is not in politics can be in it all the time, which is why I think people care once every four years. And I think that's why they think that's the only election that they have to vote in. And like, I try to vote all the time and sometimes I go to vote and I might be the only one who win.

Like there are sometimes where I'm like, I see poll workers and nobody else in here, right? And I think that to what Tressie was saying earlier, it's like, there is a urgency, then complacency in rotation. And so I think that when it comes to politics, there is a little bit of like a need to find out over and over again, a y'all must've forgot over and over again.

So in terms of the inevitability of it all, I think America is the one place where nothing isn't inevitable. The reason I moved to America, like most immigrants or expats, whatever you wanna call me, is because of opportunity. And living here, I've realized about this country, it really is a casino, right?

That is all it is. And sometimes you throw the dice and you win big and sometimes you lose everything you have. And what makes America so intoxicating and remarkable is the fact that it is a casino, right? And like you go to most of Western Europe, society is set, cast is set, you can't get out of your class. America is the only place where you could get an Obama and you could get a Trump. You could have slavery to reconstruction to Jim Crow to present day and see the change in black people, right?

The advancements and the remaining of suffering. It's so contradictory in that way. And one thing I've learned living here, if there is any country that has the capacity for revolutionary and radical change in an incredibly brief period of time, where we take like England, like 75, 100 years, America can do it in seven. And we've seen that with Trump, right, he's a big example of that. Like, you don't know what's coming next. And just like we had an Obama, we may get an Obama that makes good on the promise. And now that Trump's in power, I think there is a vacuum for that. And there is a way that we could just lean into the darkness and be like, okay, the darkness

is going to win. And I'm not like, you know, I'm not optimistic about shit. I like, I think humans are terrible. So this is not coming. But this is just like the American experiment is a heartbreaking, but also a very remarkable one. So there is a scenario where something comes out of this is completely unexpected, apart from like me being deported, which is probably going to happen by the time he gets in power. I actually actually love that. I love that as an idea, you know. I think that's a beautiful place to end it actually. It is the casino and I

think that's what makes it spectacular is that exactly what you're saying. We've seen so many moments where the dice has landed perfectly and man you can't deny being around for those moments in America is a pretty special feeling. And then we've also seen moments where like now ironically it depends on whose view you're taking. Because if you're right now if you're not a Trump supporter you're seeing it from the perspective of like you rolled the dice and you lost everything. But if you're a Trump supporter you're going that's right yes somebody has won somebody has. Every time someone loses in the casino. This is the best time to be an American that they have ever experienced.

Exactly. It is exactly that. That is the most perfect analogy I've ever heard, Cristiana, because if you've spent, I've spent a lot of time in casinos, comedy in casinos go hand in hand, unfortunately. Let me tell you something now. It is the most depressing and inspiring place you have ever been in your life. Because you'll see one person in a corner mortgaging their house or bringing a pink slip for their car because they've lost it all. And on the other side, you will see somebody

who's just made 30 new friends because they're on a hot streak of rolling the dice and it's all going well. And that, yeah. So in many ways right now, I guess you're right. People just have to keep rolling the dice. And it also means America could lose everything. I'm just about to say that yes, it is a casino, but I think the house always wins. Isn't that what we say about the casino? That's my only thing, y'all. I guess what I'm saying is, I want to be the house. If there's a country where you can be a house, America.

I'll throw this at you, actually. You know when you say the house always wins? I think of this. While literally when we started recording this, I looked at the stock market, and it has rallied to its like greatest, a trillion dollars. You know, lately, there was a trillion dollars has been added to the stock market. That is the house. And I think that's something, you know, Josh, you touched on it in a beautiful way. Tressie, you talk about all the time, Christiana, if you think about it, no

matter who wins or loses the elections in America, Wall Street always wins. That's the house, baby. Now you're talking my language. You You will lose you will lose your house you will not be able to go to school you will lose your factory job Jobs will go to Mexico your kid won't be able to go to school. You'll feel like the schools are racist You'll feel like trans people are taking over you'll feel like sports is not what it used to be You'll feel like people can't say what they want to people can't use certain words you'll feel like it's good it's bad it's this is but can I tell you who has never stopped winning yeah if you go look at the graph absolutely it's Wall Street that the

SMP yeah the house always wins well once again Tracy thank you very much I started this conversation feeling great but I I feel even greater right now. You step in every time and you make all things great again. You're mega, Tracy. That's who you are. You are my mega. I felt where that was going in an instant, and you still got me. And I was going to tell you how happy I was to see your face. That's what I was going to say to you. I was like, look at that face.

I'm so happy to see that face. I was going to say, Josh, it was so good to see your cute little face. Josh, you were so good. Thanks so much. The two of you will be in competition for my affection. Always a pleasure. I'm going to get some rest because you have not slept. I'm going to get some rest because you have not slept.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle, Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl, Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?