What Now? with Trevor Noah - Harris v. Trump: The Week Before with Tressie McMillan Cottom [VIDEO]

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

Trevor and Christiana call on Tressie McMillan Cottom to help them make sense of the final week before the US presidential election. Together, they unpack Trump’s rally at Madison Square Garden, why certain groups are planning to vote against their own interests, and how Tucker Carlson’s web browser history may be impacting his politics. Fortunately we can all exhale next week. Or not. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Maybe I'm too like Halloween-ed from everything that's going on. But I feel like you can apply it to everything right now. Because what you've just said applies in the same way. Politics used to be about a moment in time. You wear your costume. What are you going as? Right? Oh, I'm going as a ghost.

Oh, I'm going as a whatever. Right? And then now it's people are wearing their costumes 24 7 365 and then America wonders why it feels so spooky and eerie all of the time. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. So, Tracy McMillan Cotton, Christiane Mbaka Medina, who's winning the election? Not us. Can I tell you, I know that America is always on edge when it's election time, but it feels like, and I don't know if this is true, but it feels like it's becoming more and more on edge from

election to election. This is the strangest lead up to an election ever because I don't think anybody knows what's happening or not happening, who's winning or who's not winning. Every poll has Trump up or down, Kamala Harris like winning everything or losing it all. Like, in this moment in time, in this moment in time, I just want to know, let's start with this, how are you feeling? I've got so many messages on my phone from the last few days of people texting me to tell me how stressed out they are.

And I would point out to the audience, I'm a sociologist, that's not what I do at all. But that's how desperate people are. They're just like contacting anyone that they think can help. You know, some of this is the hangover from the fact that we can't believe losing the last time didn't get rid of Donald Trump.

That's what I think some of this is. We thought we'd pushed him off of the stage. He's proving to be far more resilient than I think anybody imagined. And so it feels like we didn't really get a break from him. And that's what I think some of this anxiety is about. Yeah, I don't know what to believe. I've kind of disassociated over the last, I don't know, six weeks or so. I just tried to talk to people who make me feel happy.

I honestly can't do four more years of him. Like I don't have the emotional stamina. He has the stamina. He could go on forever. But like he's got that dictator blood, baby. He's like he will go. If you're from Africa, you know exactly what he has. I remember watching Robert Mugabe and I'd be like, this guy will go on forever. I remember when he beat cancer and I was like, damn, even cancer was like, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, cancer got Robert Mugabe. Mugabe didn't get cancer. Like, with those type of people, that's what it is.

And I feel like whether he wins or he loses, he's not going anywhere. I think that's the thing that's kind of disheartening. So I'm like, do we just get another four years so he can't be president again? It's like, I'm like, that's the worst case scenario for me. I know, trust me, this is how I've been kind of speculating to myself. But then I'm like, why is it even a race? Like, whatever you think about her, I think she's abundantly more qualified than he is, insaner and less of a criminal.

You know, I've been watching a ton of scary movies. Obviously, it's Halloween, right? Which is the perfect time, I feel like, to have it right before the election. America knows how to plan its holidays out. So I'm terrified of scary movies. And I grew up in a world where there was witchcraft. And so for me, it's not even like a joke. But I decided this year, I was like,

let me watch a few, let me see if I'm immune to it. Turns out I'm not, I'm still terrified. But it was amazing to see how horror movies follow the exact same formula that America's politics and Donald Trump have sort of followed. Like what you just said now, Christiana, is the end of every smile movie. It's where somebody just goes like at some point, they just accept it and they're like,

all right, well, take over my body. And then at least this is the end. And that's it. Like it literally feels like some people are willing or would rather just have it be over than to keep on fighting, which is an understandable feeling. I was optimistic. Remember when we spoke to Tressie last, I was just like, yes, she can do this. And then it's like, actually, it's all my friends who are Democrats who are making me scared.

Tressie, as a sociologist, help me understand this. How is it, or is it normal, that the political parties themselves have started to come with a personality type, not just a political affiliation. And I'll tell you why I asked this question, right? Over the past few weeks, we've been watching like the rallies as the race intensifies, we've been seeing people online, but listening to what you just said now, Christiana, is something that I've noticed across the board.

Democrats are scared before the election. This is the same as before Biden, by the way. Democrats are scared before the election, or liberals, or whatever you wanna call yourself. And conservative people are like, we got it in the bag. This is the greatest moment of our lifetime. We're doing it, baby. You know what I hear in my president and our president,

Donald Trump speak He sounds for real brother. He sounds like he has a heart of gold this all for the USA But when I hear Kamala speak It sounds yeah, it sounds like a script from Hollywood with a really really bad actress Is is there something that explains this because I don't know another country where I've seen this and I'd love to know Tracy If you've given any thought to like personality going with a political party, I don't understand it. Yes I mean, there's a reason why people

a political party. I don't understand it. Yes. I mean, there's a reason why people increasingly over the last 30 years or so, people who study this kind of like political behavior, talk about how our political affiliation has become our identity. Something that I found personally strange, by the way, I grew up in a politically active family leftover from like the civil rights movement and the black power movement. It's not that we didn't participate in electoral politics. We did, right? We did get out the vote stuff.

But I don't remember anyone calling themselves a Democrat as an identity between elections, right? What has happened is that people think of themselves as their political affiliation now all year round, all year round. And so because it's become an identity, identity is like other identities, right? Identities are attracted to personalities. And this is coincidentally something that I think Donald Trump understood intuitively that Democrats did not.

He understood what people wanted from politics, which was different from what they said they wanted. People want to go into the voting booth and into a political party feeling like a member of the party, not as someone who is responsible for democracy or, you know, responsible for freedom and all of that. And what Donald Trump knows how to do is appeal to your identity as opposed to your morality. Liberals are still stuck in this cycle of wanting to appeal to our higher, better angels. And frankly, in a consumer-driven, identity-driven society, there is no higher angel. There is no better angel. People just want the softest, cheapest bread.

Right? Like, nobody wants whole grain bread. We want Wonder Bread for $1.99. That will always taste like the Wonder Bread we got last time. And Donald Trump understands that. And he's like, I'll give you all the Wonder Bread you want. I was thinking about this the other day. So it's weird for me.

I've lived through my country's first democracy, like my country's first democratic elections. And one of the biggest things they told us in South Africa when the election was happening, now granted I was only 10 years old, but this is how powerful the marketing campaign was. The main thing they said was, your vote is your secret. Your vote is your secret. Now, remember, this is a country where black people were oppressed for like hundreds of years.

This is the first time they're gonna get to vote. Black people were like, we can tell you who we voting for. They were like, no, no, no, no, no. No, your vote is your secret. And then they would teach us this even in school. They were like, your vote is your secret. And then they would teach us this even in school. They were like, your vote is your secret because it is part of keeping a society functioning well. You go into the booth, you vote,

and then when you come out, you can talk about politics, but don't tell other people who you voted for. Don't even tell your own family members. And recently I've started realizing how important that is. It's weird to live in a country or in a time when people are only talking about who they voted for, or who they're gonna vote for, or who they think other people should be voting for. Does this make any sense? Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I feel you. But I'm just like, if something has to be a secret, maybe I'm in mom mode now, because we don't let Obi and Luna, our role is no secrets because that secret's aren't safe, right? Anytime you tell a child, like, keep it a secret, something sinister is going to happen, right? I'm just like, why should it? If something has to be a secret, maybe you should question why. That's my only thing about voting.

I come from the other perspective. In England, people are like, proudly wear the fact that they're Tories or Labour or Lib Dem or Green. And I don't think, I guess until Brexit, it wasn't as fraught. Because it was just like, your political party was a big part of your identity. Like, I don't, I'm not necessarily of this school, it should have to be a secret. I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking about it and there were two things that stuck with me. I don't know if these resonate with you at all.

One, I thought it should be your secret in a place where people have guns and shoot each other. So that's the first thing that I start with. Okay, yeah. All right, fair enough. So in South Africa, it was like, your vote should be your secret because shit is crazy out here.

Like things were not calm when we were voting for the first time, all right? The second one I was thinking about was, and this is something that I secretly believe might happen in this election. I think there are a lot of people who are gonna wear a certain colored hat and are going to go to certain rallies and they're gonna say certain things.

But when they go to the voting booth and they pull that little curtain across, they might vote for themselves and for their bodies, and not necessarily to match up with their community. And that's sometimes why I think voting should be secret, is because it allows people to vote against the interests of the people they're scared of publicly being against. Yeah, there's a trope of like the Trumpy husband with a good church-going wife who is going to vote for Kamala perhaps, right? But I guess why I'm feeling so anxious, and Tressie you may be able to speak to this, is because I'm like, I think over the last 10 years, I'm like society is just even crazier than I thought.

Like what you said about there being like no higher years, I'm like society is just even crazier than I thought. What you said about there being no higher good, I really feel that. And I think Trump's America's id and he appeals to people's most base impulses. And I think a lot of people may give into that. I think that's a beautiful way to put it. And I'm not saying that just because I have said the exact same thing, Christiana. I truly believe. I have also said I think Trump is our id, and the thing about the id is that it feels

amazing. It feels great. It is ultimately destructive, but it feels good on the way down. I'm not sure either how much stock I put in this politically divided, you know husband wife trope Same I think there is some truth to it but I think that the benefit to a lot of women of Being close to patriarchal power outweighs a lot of their individual fears about their loss over their bodily autonomy I also think we can't overstate how much especially on the conservative side

I also think we can't overstate how much, especially on the conservative side, conservatives historically vote for government to regulate others, not themselves. They truly believe that when they vote for something to be regulated, that it won't happen to them. So, I think for a lot of women, they are voting to regulate other women. I also don't want to let a lot of women off of the hook because empirically we saw how they voted last time in particular White women and I will say something that a friend said to me once she turned to me and said trust me Crackheads don't marry non crackheads Like if both people are sitting at the kitchen table and one is extremely

enthusiastically Trump that you're safe is bet here is that they share this. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, you can take that. And I, I have found that to be very helpful to keep in mind. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. We could be right back to the days before Roe, the days when abortion wasn't as safe as it is today, the days when the number of mothers of color dying in childbirth was 30 to 40 percent higher than when it was under Roe. So to the men who love us, please do not put our lives in the hands of politicians, mostly men who have no clue

or do not care about what we as women are going through. Because a vote for him is a vote against us. The talk that's been most prominent, I think, on the black voter side, you know, typically I'd say, especially in the Obama years, it would be talking about like the black church as a voting base and just knowing the black church were going to go Democrat and things kind of splintered in 2016 and 2020. And now a conversation that's become really prominent that I have issues with, because I don't think the numbers are that significant, is black men kind of abandoning the Democratic party, particularly black men who aren't college educated and who are secular and may not vote for Harris, right?

Do you think it's kind of being overblown and they're going to, what many people believe, scapegoat black men if Harris loses this election? Or is there a significant portion of black men who are kind of feeling abandoned by the Democrats? So I think both of those are true, but they are not at the same scale. So yes, it is empirically true. We're talking about like 5% though. In a journalist Eli Misdel at the Nation recently pointed out, he was like, why are we talking

about 5% of black men will overwhelmingly 85 to 90% of black Americans are still going to vote for Kamala Harris. And I could not sign on to that more. But there's a difference between something being like, oh, that is statistically interesting and it being statistically important. So like, yeah, I don't think ultimately it will be significant electorally. Now what's interesting about that is I do think that Donald Trump has tapped into the sort of like patriarchal impulse of men, not just black men, by the way, it's also true

for Hispanic men, it's true overwhelmingly again for working class men, not just black men by the way, it's also true for Hispanic men, it's true overwhelmingly again for working class men, which is this desire to see themselves as economic breadwinners again. The idea that they want their moment in the sun and Donald Trump becomes a figure saying he can show them and lead them away. I attribute it more to the decline of the power of the black church than I do of any specific appeal that Trump has to black men. And like, what would you say to like, I guess the Hispanic vote, I think, is like treated like a monolith. Really, like, because, you know, Cubans in Miami are different from Dominicans in Washington

Heights. They're just treated as a fake. Oh, yeah. Or Mexicans in LA, they're treated as the same thing. But the Democrats also have an issue with the Hispanic vote. I think Trump's done a very good job of cultivating this base. And they're responding to him. And he's able to speak to them in ways that the Democrats sound.

But it doesn't seem to be as much as a story right now anyway. Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that's because we have such a clear cut historical narrative about black and white voters, right? That we can't deal with the complexities of the Hispanic coalition, which as you point out, comes from very different and sometimes conflicting national origins with very different political interests that map sometimes on the race, like sometimes Cubans are white and sometimes they aren't in ways that I just think is too complicated for a country that is just still stuck on black and white.

But I do think that fundamentally, I think the question about that is probably more interesting and potentially important given the demographic growth of the Hispanic voting base than it is than the question about black male voters. Yeah, I kept coming back to that, especially to speak to my husband's relatives and she reads as Hispanic to a lot of people. And I'm like, well, this is a missed opportunity. And I also think that Democrats, not to write their obituary yet, have missed out on capitalizing about her being Asian also. It's just something that they've spent so much time defending

her Blackness. They've also been like, hey, we could capture another vote here through our identity. And it seems like- Let me ask you this, though. Let me ask you this. Do you not think that Kamala Harris and the Democrats as a whole

have always been in like a lose-lose situation, right? And I'll tell you why they're for me they're always in a lose-lose situation. It's because they're a big tent party and it's a coalition, right? So When you when you when you look at like Donald Trump slash the Republicans, it's easy to go What is this? All you have to do is If you are a person of color, if you are, you know, a certain ethnicity, if you're all you do is you check that in at the door. You say that you're fully MAGA, fully American, and you're welcome, by the way, you are very welcome. I think this is a misconception. You're very welcome. And then the other people who come in, if they're white, they still get to come in with their grievances and be like, I'm a white man who doesn't

get looked at the way I used to and let me tell you something about what we got to do about it. Right? You get to do that. But now when you're in, there's a singular focus and a singular idea and what they're selling you is crystal clear. So they go, come here if you feel like your life's not great anymore. Come here if you feel like you don't have a place in society anymore, it's singular and it's clean, right?

Each and every one of you has been loyal to your country, you have loved your country, you followed the rules, you've paid your taxes, you did everything right and the system just keeps beating you down, beating you down and beating you down. And if you look at it on the Democrat side, I can't tell you with crystal clarity what the message is or is not or where you should, and I'm not blaming it on them, and I'm not blaming it on Kamala. So let's play all the games out.

If Kamala Harris came out and really pushed on her being Asian, people will be like, what is she doing? She's neglecting the black vote. She's a black woman. How can you neglect such a powerful voting blocker? And if she came out and then she focused, then we go like, ah, she's not thinking of the Asians.

And then if you go Hispanic, they're going to be like, wow, really? We're going to get a black woman and she's focusing more on Hispanic voters than she is on black voters, like forgetting our own. And then if she'd like, it feels like, it feels like there's a simpler path on the Republican side than there is on the Democratic side, because the Republican side has one simple idea. And if you join the team, it's like a sports team. You wear the shirt, you cheer for us, and you forget everything that you came with and you're in.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, I kind of disagree. And I'll say this because- Kind of. I'll take kind of from Christiana. I'll, you know, I kind of disagree. And I'll say this because- I'll take kind of from Christiana, I'll tell you that much. I really disagree, I'm just trying to be polite. That means I've made some inroads. I'm trying to be polite about it.

Before the ascendance of Donald Trump, the Republican Party, they were publishing a bunch of papers about them and the minority vote, and they were panicked. They were like, we're not reaching black people and not reaching Asians. Exactly. They lost Muslims after 9-11. But like all the blocks that were reliable to them, they couldn't speak to them. And they still struggle with these people because these people are still with the Democrats, right? So we know they know there's an issue. And Trump is a very unusual event. And I think what the Democrats have that they forget that Obama embodied is that you just need to say the fact that you have this huge tent is actually a really beneficial thing. Because he was just like, yes, we can. And

people are like, sure. If you make people feel good enough, the idea that it's like whatever you are, however you're abled, whatever you look like, whatever your sexuality, you are welcome here is a very powerful message. And I just think that the message of fear right now on the Republican side has just been crafted so well and it's so clear. And to me, that's what frustrates me about the Democrats. I'm like, you have to work on your messaging because people, if you say like, we have this big tent

where our family, we don't always get along, but you're more welcome here and you're more able to be yourself here than you are on the other side, then I think that's an exciting message. But I think we're agreeing actually, funny enough. Yeah, okay. Honestly, I'll tell you why I think we're agreeing. Let's look at Obama as an example. I believe the seminal moment in Barack Obama's ascendancy is when he's at the convention and he says There is no red America. There is no blue America. There is just the United States of America

And what hurt white people all over the world exactly You heard them in unison Tracy. Yeah heard them in unison Because what Obama did very well was he did the exact same thing. That's what I'm trying to say. He did what Trump did. He goes, leave it at the door. He's like, I'm not going to poke you on that issue. I'm not going to remind you of the fact that you're white.

I'm not going to remind you of, no, no, no, no, no. Let's do this thing together. You know what I mean? Even when he gave- But that's where I disagree. Trump doesn't do that. Trump says no trans people. He speaks about Mexicans. No.

Come on, Trevor. So here's my thing. He's very tribalist and he artists groups all the time. And that's why people are drawn to him. Here's something that you have to do with Donald Trump. You have to learn to hear what he's meaning and not just what he's saying. A lot of academic people get stuck

on what Donald Trump is saying, but not on what he means, right? I remember when Donald Trump did the Muslim ban. People were like, well, that's it for him. No Muslim person and no Middle Eastern person is going to ever vote for him. And I remember speaking to Muslims and Middle Easterners, not just in the US, but in other countries when I traveled to the Middle East. And they were like, we understand what he's saying. And I was like, what do you mean you understand?

And they were like, no, no, we understand what Donald Trump is saying. He's saying there are, you know, he doesn't want any of these like radical groups coming to America and then I was like, but he called it a Muslim man. They're like, no, no, look, look, he's not very articulate and he is not going to,

but we understand what he's saying. Even here in the Middle East, we don't want those people. Huh? We are sick of ISIS. We are sick of extremists. We're then I was like, wait, wait, wait guys, but he did a Muslim ban. So you're banned. Then they were like, yeah, but this we can figure out in time, the most important.

And I was like, damn, you hearing something different to me because I'm not listening the same way. And so if you listen to Donald Trump, he's saying to you as a black person, hey, I forget black. I don't even care about that in that way. It's going to be bad because what does he say? What does he say? No, what does he say with these words? He goes, the blacks, the black jobs are coming. We're bringing all the black jobs back. No, I was just about to say the black jobs message, I actually thought the Democrats made a mistake. Yes. Doubling down on mocking that. My apologies to Michelle. I understand that's Jesus. But

I thought we made a mistake, Trevor. And I have said this over and over again, but I'm not in control and that's fine. Because what people heard in black jobs was a racialized history about working class people in this country that actually is true. Yes. If you are my people, like my grandparents and my uncles, there are black jobs, especially during the height of like unionized manufacturing and industrial labor in this country, they're not insulted that you call that work black job because they were dying to get one of those black jobs.

They fought white dominated unions for those black jobs. And what they heard Donald Trump say the minute he said it, I knew what he meant. And I said, well, I know who that will resonate with, by the way, overwhelmingly men who work in masculine jobs that have a unionized history. What they were hearing was we used to have a certain level of protectionism in the labor market. And yes, it wasn't maybe the best job in the factory. It wasn't the best job on the construction site.

But we understood what jobs to apply for and where we would get some, if not preferential treatment, then certainly some understanding that we were supposed to be there. And what Donald Trump understands is that when your instincts are accurate, you'll take any prescription that solves that problem for you. And his prescription right now has a clarity that the Democrats don't have in part, I think, because they don't want to be held responsible for delivering on the clear promise. See, Trump doesn't worry about that. Oh, damn.

He's like, elect me, whatever, I don't care, because he's like, as long as I win, you won, right? And frankly, a lot of his voters agree with that. The Democrats are so scared of being held responsible for the clarity of their message that they never get a clear message. Damn, I never thought of it that way. Because I mean, look at it with Israel-Palestine. Say what you want about Donald Trump, but he's sort of had a clearer message than Kamala

on it. He just goes, we're going to bring peace. That's all he says. He says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to bring peace. Yeah. He, that's all he says. He says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to bring peace. Whereas Kamala goes, well, we must look at when this started and also never forget that also there's October 7th, but also the Palestinians, Donald Trump's just like, no, there's going to be peace and Ukraine, there's going to be peace.

They would never do it. But you know, she could never say that. And I think that's what, I don't know if the word is irks, but frustrates me about this election is that she could say and do all the things he says and she couldn't get away with it. It just wouldn't. Nobody can do the things Donald Trump says and does. Even Republicans can't.

No, I think most mediocre white men can get away with what he does. I don't know about that. Honestly, if you have enough vim and charisma, he's shown us that, right? As long as you dodge. I don't know, Christiana. I think Donald Trump is a freak of nature. As long as you're shameless. He is a freak of nature.

He's a freak of nature. I do think he's a black swan, but he shows you, like I said to my husband the other day, he was speaking about someone we know, this white guy, and he never shows up to meetings. And I was like, that's how you use your whiteness, because meetings are a waste of time, right? So he's just never there. And I'm like, listen, if I was a white man, why am I going to meet him? I wouldn't meet either. Sure wouldn't.

Yeah. I'm like, that's how you use your privilege in a benign way. He's always throwing his dick around. He's like, I don't want to go to the meeting. And I think Donald Trump uses his whiteness to the max in a way that most white men would never dare. But I think if you're like, I'm going to be really shameless, I'm at the top of the social hierarchy and more men adopted Trump's way of being, they could get away with so much

stuff in a way that I think Harris just cannot. And also I don't think she's particularly loose in that way. And I don't say that like as to cast dispersion. I was just about to say, yeah. She's a lawyer, she's a prosecutor. I think it's fair to say some of this is about limitations of the candidate, which right now is, you know, we're not supposed to say, but I just think that's real. This is not her register, right?

But I also think, to Christiana's point, that I think Trump is particularly gifted as a messenger, even if his political instincts suck. But he doesn't need strong political instincts right now. The structure of electoral politics in the United States is such that you could run a potato as the Republican candidate and it will be competitive. You know, we have so jury rigged the process. We have got so much gerrymandering.

The courts have been packed. I think the real question is why got so much gerrymandering. The courts have been packed. I think the real question is why somebody so buffoonish can't tank the Republican ticket. It's that strong. Now he sells that better. He makes people feel better about it. But that's, I think, a slightly different gift in his political instincts. Yeah. So you know what? Let's look at the Trump rally. Before we get into any of the analysis even, I just wanted to talk to you about this rally because I feel like in the home stretch, it doesn't matter what country you're in. A week before the election, all you want to do, all you want to do is not fumble the bag. That's all you want to do.

Yeah. Donald Trump and his people, I don't know who signed off on this. I don't know, because I do believe this could be one of, not, not, I don't think, but if Donald Trump loses this election, nobody should take for granted the significance of hosting a rally at Madison Square Garden where your opening act comes out. Says that Puerto Rico is a floating pile of trash in the ocean. Says that black people carve watermelon for Halloween. Oh my god. Republicans of the party with a good sense of humor. Three speeches under attack people. I host a show and each week I get updates what words we're Yo, let me tell you something. Okay, all right. Okay, we're getting there.

Yo, let me tell you something. I was watching that and I was just like, who didn't think that that comedian, Tony Hinchcliffe, taking him out of the context of a comedy space, even if you want to call it edgy or whatever, let's remove that for a second, right? I understand in comedy people are like, oh, the jokes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But right now, this is not a joke event.

And no one knows this is a joke event. And you put this guy up and he goes on and he just like, there were people who had never posted for the Democrats, by the way, who started posting, right? Bad Bunny, for instance, put out a post. Yeah, yeah. Pro Kamala. Bad Bunny is like, that's it, that's enough.

JLo came out, Ricky Martin came out. And I don't know who jumped and who didn't, like I'm not saying they did or they didn't, you know, previously, but it was pretty significant to see people like step up now. And the thing is, all Donald Trump had to do was come on stage and say, you know, I saw Tony and his jokes and Tony's a funny guy, but Tony, come on, hey, we love Puerto Ricans, We love them. We love them so much, Tony. That's all he had to do.

If he came out and said that it would have been like, Oh, you saw that. And you acknowledged that that wasn't cool. And we're with you, but he didn't. And I think even the people there were just like, well, that's what it is. I'm just saying Tony Hinchcliffe for me showed me even in that moment that Donald Trump has something special because Tony Hinchcliffe came up there, showed me even in that moment that Donald Trump has something special, because Tony Hinchcliffe came up there as a comedian, said a thing, he made a racist joke,

made a few racist jokes, and could not get the people to like buy in on it in a way that Donald Trump could. That's another example of what I mean, is Trump can get away with that, because Trump, even in the moment, would be savvy enough to say, no, I shouldn't say that about Puerto Rico. We love the Puerto, we love them.

We love you. Uh-huh, yeah, yeah. And even in that moment, he's acknowledging, and the audience gives him leeway because, and I know this is going to sound very blasphemous, Christiana, don't fight me yet. Okay. Here's what I think, Donald Trump has done well,

that Barack Obama did well. That Bill Clinton did well. That maybe even George Bush in some ways did well. Donald Trump has understood the element, not maybe instinctively he does, but he's brought church to politics. When you're in church, both of you, just stick with me. I see your eyebrows. Hold on a second. Okay.

Hold on. I'm going to let you relax. This is my listening face. Everybody relax. I'm going to let you land, Trevor. I've seen you listen in many different ways, Tracy. That's not your, I'm with your listening face. So this is what I mean. Do you remember going to church and the pastor would be giving a sermon, and this would be giving a sermon and this would be

a serious sermon. It would be a deep lesson and in that lesson, he would throw something out that was so politically incorrect. I remember my brain as a child would literally short circuit for a moment, you know. So he'd like, let's say he would say, you know, be reading from the scriptures and it'd be like, honor, wives honor thy husbands. And he'd be like, he's like, he's like, but when I, when I ask my beautiful Mavis to make me a snack at midnight, she seems to forget that Scripture.

Come on, woman! And then the crowd would laugh and he, and then the pastor would very quickly say, no, no, I kid, I kid. But what is God telling us in this Scripture? And would quickly come back to, no, no, no, this is real, this is not. This is real, this is not. But what I feel like great pastors are able to do is they leave the congregation feeling seen, and then they find a way to make it seem like it's about a larger thing, and you shouldn't focus on one specific moment.

So the husband gets to walk out of the sermon going, ah, yes, I was seen as a man, this is my purpose. But a woman gets to walk out of the congregations, out of the sermon saying, I'm a woman, and I've been validated. A child gets to walk out feeling the same thing. But everyone collectively has sort of been preached to, you know what I mean? Do you get what I'm saying? But I just feel that like, he's a preacher of darkness. I'm not disagreeing that he brings like this looseness and improv. I don't know if he's church, it doesn't have enough soul for me to quite be church. I think Obama had some of that, but you know, also I'm a passage or.

Yes, but which church? But which church? The church of darkness. That's the Trump church of darkness. No, no, no, but when you're saying soul, which church are you talking about when you talk about soul? The church with the guitars and the smoke machines and the hot blonde women. Like those stuff. Exactly.

What I'm saying is when you talk about soul, I feel like you're looking for soul in the wrong place. Okay, this is what Trump has. He's just like an intrusive thought. You know, like all the things that people want to say, but we know we shouldn't say. And we do take delight in those people that I had a great uncle like that who would say the most outrage. I can't even repeat the stuff. Well, he was like the great uncle that was like, oh, they shouldn't

let black people in heaven because we'll steal the gold off the street. This was my great uncle, right? And like, you just like, you don't know whether to laugh or cry, but he used to get off on saying the really outrageous stuff and he was very beloved and people were drawn to him. He reminds me of Trump, Trump reminds me of him. And I think, yeah, that's fine for a great uncle drinking Hennessy in his living room, but then when you have a crowd of people and he's like, well, they're going to give your child is going to go to school a boy and come back a girl. And it's just like, where are we? Where are we going with this? Because he's humorous, but he's also stoking up hatred, Trevor. That's the thing.

Definitely. And I just want to say I don't want us to implicate Hennessy here. I don't like to leave Hennessy out of this. I'm sorry. but it was his favorite trick. Thank you. And Cabartier, he loved both. Yeah, deserves that shade, but I hear you, Christian. Get ready for me to nerd out a little in this new segment, F1 Love, where we'll talk about all things F1 and the huge amount of things happening for the upcoming F1 Las Vegas GP. Did I ever tell you about the first time I went to a Formula 1 race? No, you didn't. Same story, but I love Formula 1, like love, love, love, love, love Formula 1.

So I was introduced to Formula 1 by my dad, right? And my dad is Swiss German, not very good at showing affection, but really good at like displaying it in his own way. So my mom was all hugs, kisses, smiles, laughter, throw me up in the air, run around with. My dad was very much like, are you fed? Do you want to do something? Do you want to watch something? Okay, here we...

And my favorite thing was we used to watch Formula One. So that's how I grew up, right? Loving Formula One. There's a radio station in South Africa and they're hosting a competition to go and watch Formula One in Brazil. And you got to enter the competition. And it was this whole thing. You had to like do Formula One commentary. And I literally, I'll never forget this. I said to my cousin, I think I've won the competition. And he's like, but you haven't even phoned in yet. And I said, yeah, I think I've won already. And literally, I phoned in and they didn't call me back. And so I went to the radio station. And I was like, hey, I'm pretty certain I won the competition, but I haven't heard. And they're like, well, that's a little arrogant. Like, if we didn't call you, you didn't win. Then I was like, no,

I definitely won. I just want to know why you didn't call me. And then the woman at the station was like, wait, there was one person who called and it cut off before we got to their name and their phone number. Was that you? And then they played the tape. I was like, that's me. And then like, oh yeah, come back for the finals. And then long story short, I did it again. I won again. And I was one of 10 people who got to go to Sao Paulo. Oh my God, this is crazy. Yeah. And. Your life, the law just gets different. What is happening? And it was one of my, let me tell you, if you've never been to a Formula One race, it is one of the most exciting experiences you will ever, ever get to have. You will

love Formula One because it transforms the city that it's in. So the newest races on the calendar is in Vegas. And I know people will be like, Vegas? Like, where do you race in Vegas? Yeah, they race in Vegas. In Vegas itself? On the streets. Yeah, they build a circuit, race through the streets of Vegas.

You know, sometimes people will talk about like a partner or a friend, they'll be like, I feel like we've always known each other. That's how Vegas seems when F1 is there. It seems like it was made for the city because think about what Formula One is. It is young, hot shots, trying to make their names known, all these beautiful people around them.

Champagne. Champagne, a party, excitement, noise, thrills, bright lights, it is Vegas. It is one of the most exciting. And what I like about it being in Vegas is it feels like the city is geared to having people there because I don't like it when sporting events go to places where the place is almost not ready for the event. And they don't want the people. No they don't. Vegas is like no no come. Come here and have you been to a Formula One race?

No I haven't but growing up I'd like to watch like Schumacher and David Hill. I love it but yeah I'd watch it as kid. And it was a zoom around the circuit. You should go. Vegas is around the corner for you. Yeah, but I'm not gonna, OB, Luna, come on. Your kids would love F1. He'd wanna join in. He'd wanna be at the pit stop changing the tires.

You've gotta do it. Like, I don't know. It's like a mini world cup. Is it like a family thing? Family vibe? Yeah, that's the best thing about it. People are in the stands, they're cheering together, and it's an experience. It's not... You know, there's some sports where, if you don't get the sport,

then you don't really want to be there, you know? But Formula One is just... Oh, the premise is simple. It is simple. There's a car, and it's trying to drive faster than another car. And the cars are different brands. Exactly. Exactly. So you and Obi have to go.

OK, we need a chaperone. Yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll make it like, yeah, we'll make it a trip. See you in Vegas. See you in Vegas. That was F1 Love brought to you by F1 Race Week in Las Vegas, November 21 to 23. Tickets are available now by visiting f1lasvegasgp.com.

And everybody here knows this is gonna be a tight race till the very end, so we have a lot of work to do. But we like hard work. Hard work is good work. Hard work is good work. Hard work is joyful work. And make no mistake, we will win. There's two things I really want us to get to in the conversation that I... So, first of all, do you acknowledge the possibility that your fears are overblown and Kamala might win this thing?

I used to think she would win. I was, I- But now you don't. It's because of the coastal elites in my life have made me feel so depressed. Did you feel like Biden would win when he won? No, I didn't think Biden would win in 2020. I did not believe he would win. I don't know why, but-

And you did, Tressie? I did. I thought COVID was that important of an external shock. And so yes, I thought people, there's something they're finally more scared of than their so-called economic insecurity and xenophobia, and that was COVID. Because that's what I think all of this is, what Trump gives as a solution to these existential fears. But there was something finally bigger, and it was COVID.

And so I did think that Biden stood a better than fair chance. And Tressie, do you think Harris is going to win? Fears are overblown. What do you think? I think that anything is possible. I think it is possible for her to win and not win. And let me tell you why. I do think that her campaign is particularly savvy, but Donald Trump doesn't need to win not win. And let me tell you why. I do think that her campaign is particularly savvy, but Donald Trump doesn't need to win to win. I think that Donald Trump is going

to declare victory election night, no matter what happens, and will immediately start litigating that both in the courts and in his voters' minds. And I'm not sure the Democrats are willing to go as far as Donald Trump is, that scares me. If this is a straightforward election and people accept the election certification of results, then I think that she might have enough enthusiasm to get the kind of turnout that she needs. Yeah. So, like, I think in Georgia, I think things like her black social institutions are absolutely going to matter. I just think the AKs are just going to run Georgia all

to the hell and back. But again, that's assuming a Trump campaign that I don't think exists, which is one that will accept the electoral results. Wow, I didn't see that as an answer. You see now that's scarier to me than just an election. I know, I'm so sorry. But now I'm less scared because at her heart she's a prosecutor and I know she'll have her lawyers in place. Now I'm like, okay, fine. If it comes down to like, if it comes down to legal stuff. I feel like she'll play messy in a way we've never seen because she really wants this. I agree. I do think that she wants this to a degree that we so far have underestimated. When I see Kamala in the moments when I think she is her most self, that girl is a shark. And I say that with a great deal of respect because I like to think I'm a little scary

too. So I'm not saying that's bad. I think you are exactly right. And I think some of what's happened in her campaign has been moderating that yeah They've been softening for all the reasons for race and gender and all that kind of stuff, but I agree with you I think that she is a sharp. I think she wants it and would be willing to go to the mat I just hope the Democratic Party is willing to let her and get behind her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this.

What is, what is happening with Tucker Carlson? Like what is happening in his private life? No, and I, I know is let's not look at his browser history. I know that. Right? What? That man man that man gave a speech at the turning point? convention and in it he basically goes on to draw an analogy between Trump coming back as president and a Father coming back home to kids who are misbehaving now

As an analogy stands, it's pretty innocuous at that level. But what he says afterwards is mind-blowing. If you allow people to get away with things that are completely over the top and outrageous, if you allow your two-year-old to smear the contents of his diapers on the wall of your living room and you do nothing about it. If you allow your 14 year old to light a joint at the breakfast table, if you allow your hormone-addled 15 year old daughter to like slam the door over her bedroom and give you the finger, you're going to get more of it.

And those kids are going to wind up in rehab. It's not good for you and it's not good for them. No. There has to be a point at which dad comes home. He then goes on to say, he's like, America's been bad. And he goes, he says, this is the part that stuck with me. I paraphrase most of it, but essentially he says, he says, he says, your son is smoking marijuana at the dinner table. He's like, no more of that.

And your daughter is slamming her bedroom door in your face. Well, you know what? Daddy's coming home. Daddy's coming home, and you've been a bad girl. A bad, bad girl. And you're going to get a vigorous spanking. That's right. You're going to get spanked, you bad, bad girl.

And no, it's not gonna hurt me more than it hurts you. Ooh, it's gonna hurt you way more, but you've been a bad girl. And you're just like, are we? Have we just traveled with you into your deepest dark? Like, there were two things that stuck out for me. One, I found it interesting that even in his analogy, the girl had to do way less to get a spanking.

Let's just start with that. Can we, I am so glad you caught that. Like that was one of the- I was like, why is he obsessed with the daughter, the boy smoking weed? The boy smoked marijuana at the table. Even if you are like a super liberal chilled out family, someone's smoking weed at the dinner table.

Come on, someone's gonna have a problem with that. The girl slammed her door, that's all she did. And then daddy comes home to beat her. I was like, what is happening in Tucker Carlson's life? I also would point out that not only did the daughter get the extreme amount of retribution, her retribution is sexualized. It is very similar to the type of sexualization

of daughters that Donald Trump has done and has gotten away with ad nauseam and it's just been absolutely stunning to me. So I think there are two things here. I think Tucker Carlson has some of that economic anxiety we like to talk about. Tucker ain't got no job. And I think that when people don't have a job, they will do a lot to get some attention.

Things have not landed the way he thought they would after he left Fox, and he will say anything to get back on the stage. That's number one. And he knows what will do that, right? He knows what's the most extreme case. But I also think, and I'm not sure he would do this consciously, but I think the fixation on the daughter, the gendered nature of that rant is very much about

who they think the problem is in his electorate in this campaign. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. And also who he was speaking to, like turning point, big religious crowd. And I don't know how much like, okay, you guys know I'm into the tradwives. I'm also into like the people that have like loads of kids and the quiver film movement and so much of it is based on disciplining children. Like it's like a cornerstone of the movement. Spare the rod and you know, spoil the child. These are the only white people in the world who still beat their kids. So I think he also knew it was like, this is what that crowd wants to hear. We're going to have a president that agrees with you when you beat your daughter for doing something relatively minor. So he's like still savvy in that way, but also I think,

you know, some sexual fantasy is there as well. I wonder how much of everything America is experiencing in its politics and in many parts of the world just boils down to men feeling like the world is moving in a direction that they have no place in. And that's the only reason they're voting the way they're voting. Like it- Yeah.

Yeah. That, there you go. That's it. I mean, you threw that with a sprinkling of climate change. That's the whole shebang. Yeah, that's it. It really just feels like that. Cause it's funny you say climate change.

Literally everything I can tie it back. So you go, climate change. The real thing people are angry about is they're telling you, you can't drive a truck. Uh-huh. You know? And then it's like, gender identity. They're telling you that you can't be a truck, you know? And then it's like gender identity. They're telling you that you can't be a man, you know?

And then like guns. They're telling you you can't protect your family or shoot somebody who you feel is threatening you or your family. You name the issue, you know what I mean? Like when it comes to economic, the border, they're saying that your jobs are going to be taken. It's literally just a response for me. It seems like what they've done really well is saying, hey, men,

this is your political party. And this is your moment. And this is you getting back. It's like, MAGA should be like, make American guys again. You know what I mean? Because it's like, it feels like it's all just about guys and then the women that come along with them. Also, Trevor, I agree, it's completely like male anxiety because, you know, there's so much research about men essentially falling behind, like university enrollment, more women than men. I was about to say, this is just because we got some college degrees.

Exactly, college degrees and more earning power. But there are also women who are craving the protection of men, like as a black woman. My TikTok feed is like, black women have to secure a high value man. Yeah. The soft life. The soft life. So we can have a soft life. How to do your hair and how to wear your makeup so you will attract a strong masculine man and you live in your

feminine energy. So it's like, we can blame like the male anxiety, but I'm seeing women of my age and younger say, I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to work anymore. It's scary out there. I would rather be under the authority of a man. He's my one boss. And I'll take whatever comes with that because I've tried capitalism and it hasn't worked for me. And I think that's why it's scary because there's kind of like the intersection of those desires coming from very different places. But there are women out there that do want to have a man who can afford to maintain, be the sole earner and they can stay at home.

As much as I think that's a woman's choice, but a lot of women aren't making this out of a sense of choice, they're making it because the world is a horrible place if you're a woman in the workplace. Yeah, marriage has always been a capitalist fantasy. This has always been cosplaying capitalism. When we feel the most romantic about marriage, it is when capitalism isn't working out for us. In a weird way, the fact that black women are now opting into that fantasy is its own sign of progress, believe it or not. That they think they have this option and that black men can provide it for them. Because I'm seeing the same thing, Christiana. I will say, as much as I'm seeing that, however, black women opting

into that, I know so much of that is driven by my algorithm and it's who I am and that's fine. But I think that the real sort of threat there and has always been the threat are white women who are doing it not just because of their economic insecurity, but are doing it so that they can defend the interest of their white sons. So see, black women aren't doing that, right? Because we know it's not promised for our sons. Absolutely. And so I think this is why we see white women voters voting against their own self-interest,

in many ways, voting against their own daughter's self-interest and possibility, because they are doubling down on defending their son's patriarchal privilege. And that, to me, is what what is dangerous because that's not just about capitalism, right? That's about like property and violence and wanting to be on the right side of the fence. And I think in that sort of scenario, this is one of the reasons why you see women go to a Donald Trump rally and want him to sign their boobs and they have sexualized him and turned him into a sexual figure despite the fact that he quite literally looks like an orange wedge. Like we know the man isn't sexy or attractive, right?

But they are projecting onto them what they want to be able to pass on to their sons. Yeah. Trust me, and this is not even me trying to redeem the white woman voter in any way, because I think that the numbers will speak for themselves. But I did IVF, and so I'm in a lot of IVF groups and communities. And funny enough, the way I did IVF was in Texas. So I would see in the clinics really young women, I'm talking women from like 23 to 30, conservative, Christian, etc., etc.

What's been interesting to me is a lot of these women who are like church going, typically pro-life, the abortion ban has kind of overlapped with the issue of IVF and they're not happy with it. Do you think there are enough of those women who aren't happy with the fact that like, well, when I have a miscarriage, I can't actually get the care I need because of Roe V. Wade falling down and its implication in places like Texas and Georgia, etc., etc. Do you think there are enough of those women that perhaps Harris may just take it, win and really win? I hope that there are, Christiana.

That's your way of saying that. And, well, if you had asked me this actually when the last time we were all together, I would have said, yeah, I see this going. But then I don't know, I saw JD Vance's response to that on that debate stage that night. And he was so smooth and papering that over of saying, no, we really are only going after abortion. Of course, we want you to be able to have babies and we're reasonable, we can be moved on that. And while I don't think that's the message

they're getting from Donald Trump, I think that it was enough for them to think that there might be a future where they can keep Trump, but also have this like moderating force there that won't deny them IVF, but will still deny bad women, sinful women, their access to abortion and birth control. They're not asking for actual policies. They just want assurances.

And I think they're willing to lie to give them that assurance. And I do think they want protections of IVF. The rulings that have come down in Louisiana, et cetera, have been worrying for people. And they see a model. Yeah. And they're just like, make sure that we can still make embryos and I can make babies. I don't care about the abortions. But now the abortions have encroached on that. So it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I just wonder as people are wrapping up the race, Christiana, my main criticism really would have been less about appealing to certain voters. And I think Kamala Harris and the Democrats spent way too much time talking about the danger of Donald Trump. And I'll tell you why. The first time around, you can use that as your argument, because people are like, what is this thing? He said he's going to build a wall. He said he's going to... But in the same way that news and weather channels in America have lost their ability to get people to evacuate when a storm is impending. I think the Democrats shouldn't take for granted that you can only say this thing is going to end the world so many times. And because he's had a presidency where

the world didn't end, your argument gets undermined. And now I'm not saying now this is where people make a mistake. People think that dictatorships and authoritarian regimes are built overnight, but they're not. Right? People think like armies march in the streets. It doesn't happen that way. If you read history and if you've lived in those countries you know it's a very gradual creep. So I think that's where people make the mistake. But I do think they spent too much time doing that because it's not scary in the same way anymore. And people are like, yeah, but I lived through a Trump presidency. It was annoying, but I don't know. It's not unknown anymore. And I think they could have spent more time telling people

what they would do for them, as opposed to scaring people off from this like mystery man who's no longer a mystery. Does that make sense? Trevor, you're speaking like she's lost. See, this is why I'm getting depressed and anxious. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Can I tell you something? I fixed this a few minutes ago. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, so here's the difference for me. Here's the difference for me. I don't think anything is a foregone conclusion until the day, right? The election comes down to a few hundred thousand votes, regardless of the popular votes.

So I always have hope. If you remember when I was at the Daily Show, I had hope. I mean, hope is the wrong word, maybe. But like, I thought that Donald Trump could win in 2016. And people were like, you're crazy. And I was like, no, but look, look at what he's saying and look at how it's connecting and look at what he's. So in the same way, I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that Kamala has lost

this thing because I do think there are a lot, there are a lot of people out there who are just like, they're bored. They don't want to be part of politics. They don't want to be, but you know what they don't want? They don't want chaos. Yeah. They don't want like another four years of like breaking news every day. They don't want abortion restrictions.

They don't want IVF restrictions. They don't want a wall. But they're just quiet. They're just like, just leave me alone. I don't even want to be called a Democrat or a Republican. I think right now in America, actually, this is the largest, Tressie, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, because I know you know numbers like crazy, but like, it feels like more people than ever

don't have a label to their voting right now, right? People just are like, no, I'm neither. No, I'm not even independent. They're just like, I'm undeclared. And I think that's actually a good sign for Kamala Harris because an undeclared vote, votes that doesn't vote for Donald Trump. When you're Trump, you're Trump.

But an undeclared voter can vote for Kamala Harris and for the Democrats because they go, look, man, I might not, I may not even think you guys are sexy, but let's just keep it moving. So I actually have hope the other way around. If I bet my money, I'm betting like 51% Kamala Harris wins the thing. But I wouldn't bet my money.

Because I don't like those odds. There you go, there you go. I think that's the right answer. Yeah, I wouldn't. Keep your money in your pocket and your ID in your wallet. Yeah, I wouldn't. Keep your money in your pocket and your ID in your wallet. Tressie, is there advice that you would give people on how to maintain their sanity?

Since everyone's texting you, we may as well. I'm giving you the opportunity to pre-text everyone back. I appreciate that, by the way, because I don't like sending actual text messages. I think as much as professional politicos and campaign people have to pay attention to polls, I really hate polling culture and what it has done to us. I mean, it's right up there to me with the red and blue maps, right? It just does something to the human psyche that is not good or healthy. I promise you, the polls are not deterministic. It is okay to check out psyche that is not good or healthy. I promise you the polls are not deterministic. It is okay to check out of that.

You are not a bad citizen if you don't keep up with the polls. I would argue you might be a bad citizen if you don't go vote or at least have a good reason for not voting because I allow those things. I understand those things. But I don't think you need to follow the polls.

And I promise you, if you stop following them, you will feel marginally, but measurably better. Go vote, take somebody with you. If you are inclined to do so and know that you've done your part. And I'm going to tell you, I have to watch the returns come in that night. I'll be up to like 2 a.m. blogging for the New York Times.

I don't think most Americans need to do that. I'm not kidding you. I think this is going to be a long drawn out one. And so, you know, opt out of the back and forth and you'll feel a little better. Christiana, a lot of that was just for you. It was all for me. Okay. Thank you. It was really all for you. I'll take it.

It was truly all for you. Well, Tressie, this was all for us. Thank you again for joining us. The next time we speak America may have Its new president. We don't we don't know yet. They may have elected. Let's say America may have elected its new president Tressie has agreed to join us on the podcast next week. I may even be sober I want drunk Tressie, that is fun. Can I tell you, we should make that a date. All of us, we just, shots, we just go crazy. We just come on the air. And we just do a drunk episode, post the election, drunk out of our minds. What Now?

Lit edition. I'm down. I'm down. I'm down too. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?