What Now? with Trevor Noah - Hasan Piker: Fighting the Democratic Establishment

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Trevor and Eugene sit down with streamer and political commentator Hasan Piker for a conversation about modern politics, internet culture, and the realities of building a massive audience in an increasingly divided world. From the growing friction between establishment Democrats and the progressive left to the strange experience of becoming a political figure online, Hasan shares what it’s like taking criticism from just about every direction.   Along the way, the trio get into South African politics, generational divides in leadership, and the very real federal subpoena he found waiting for him the last time he got home. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What do you think? Even if it's three percentage points. No, what do you mean? What do I think? Can a woman run the country? Oh my man. Any time. Any day.

Let me put it this way, Eugene. Yeah. I'm even going to go a step further, my friend. I'm even going to go a step further. He's going to step further. Let me say this, my man. In a world where we have lived through multiple world wars and famines and civil wars and in that world, that's not the time to say, can women do this or not?

Does that make sense? 100%. If our play. You're saying men ruined it already. I was saying if our plane was flying with no turbulence, no crashes, no disasters at all, if our airline as men was running flawlessly, then I'd be like, ah, ladies, on time. Ladies, take a back seat.

This is not the time for you to be flying this thing. We got it. The fellas got it. But I'm just saying the way the fellas have been handling things. The fellas don't got it. Right now, how much are you paying for gas? That's the fellas. I don't see any women involved in those negotiations.

Invasions? I'm just saying. So I'm not saying the women would be better. I'm not saying they'll be better. I'm just saying that. They'll be okay. We should not act like the thing that is happening now is the one. Wait, but sending out to one lady to go against many fellas that are out there running countries and starting wars and conflicts.

You know who was one of the most effective? Margaret Thatcher. Angela Merkel. Oh, God. Angler Merkel was one of the most effective in that. Now, she's not perfect by any means, but I still have, I've yet to meet a perfect president. I'm going to put it out there. Yeah, I am diametrically opposed to all of these conversations.

I say no women. Now, I'm kidding. You're dead. I was like, you're dead one. You're dead baby. I think. We got him. It's a wrap.

This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Where would you don't want to put it up there? Wait, the cap was gone. Yeah, but he put on the front. No, come on it. Oh, he doesn't want it. No, I want your hat. He's an anti-communist.

Vicious anti-commonic. He's actually anti-CAP. Yeah. His father was killed by a cap. No cap. Yeah. No cap. Okay, good.

His father was killed by a cap. And his grandfather was killed by a cap. Yeah. And from that day onwards, he vowed no cap. I'm a, I'm a, uh, I'm a, uh, a F loyalist. Oh, you are? Yeah. Oh, lying.

So, so tell me why. I'm just kidding. I mean, I was hoping. I was hoping you say why. I mean, I think the environment of panic around him is very funny. Definitely. Or was. Well, now he's, yeah.

What's happening? I mean, obviously, you can't speak for everyone, but what's, what's, what are people saying on the ground in South Africa right now? About Julius. He lost people when he was on the side of illegal migration. Oh, really? So he said, there's one Africa because it's. his plan was four years ago, he wanted to branch out the EFF

into other African countries. And then he failed. And the one place that he failed the most was Zimbabwe. Because the vice president of Zimbabwe said, you keep your things over there. And then don't bring them here. And then the same Zimbabweans that were saying,

we love this guy, did not vote for him still. They voted for Zanupi F. And then now there's a new group in South Africa called March on March, which is a social movement group that is now demonstrating and picketing against foreign immigrants. And it's saying there's a deadline

by the 30th of June, all the illegal immigrants must be gone. We always have that in South Africa every few years. So he's saying they must stay and then they're like, ah, you've lost time. So he was too woke. Yeah, for his, for his crowd. Yeah. He went off the deep end on two worlds.

They were like, we love when you were singing, kill the boar. But then you started saying, you know, you started talking about this pan African nationalist movement. I don't fuck with that. Yeah. South Africa for South Africans only. And also when you look young with extreme views. you're more palatable.

Is he young? He was young. Okay, I was going to say, so young anymore. That's a good point. When you see those images of Nelson Mandela being defiant, Rivonia trial, he was young. Chris Hani, when he just came back from exile,

he was young. So he was also the young guy in the ANC telling people that they've, you know, their time is up. Yeah, but now when you look old, but you're still fighting, people are like, no, at some point you have to, you know, and Andrew Tate with a gray beard would not fly.

Andrew Tate? Yeah, I'm saying, with a gray beard. With a gray beard. Yeah. I'm starting to get a gray beard. Fuck. Then you've got a few more years of revolutionary in you and then it's over. Actually, let me ask a question.

Like, I always wonder this for anyone who gets to step into an environment that they haven't been into, if you walk into a room now, like you've walked into this podcast, right? How would you introduce yourself and how do you think people perceive you when you walk in? This is an interesting question. I don't think about it at all. But I would introduce myself as I'm Hassan Piker. That's it. If people ask me what I do for a living, I just say I'm a political commentator. Okay.

And then they would say like, oh, what politics do you commentate on? I just say, well, it depends. If I'm talking to a border patrol agent. This did happen. This did have. It just happens a lot. I'm leaving Canada. I was on a day trip.

I talked to Gabor Matae at the Web Summit. in Vancouver and I realized I have a jacket on there's a hammer and sickle pin that a fan of mine gave me no it's on the jacket I'm wearing a democratic socialist of America New York City hat I immediately take it off I ripped the pin off and I walk up to the counter and the guy's like oh what are you doing he's a day trip that's strange I was like oh yeah I'm just I'm a speaker and he's like oh what do you talk about like what do you do I'm like oh I'm an influencer and he's like what do you influence on What do you speak on? I was like, well, you know, what's going on with young men?

And I tried to keep it as, like, broad as possible. And then he got excited. He's like, so are you a political speaker or a religious speaker? He knew you. And I was like, no, I just talk about lifestyle. He knew you. No, no, if he knew me, he would have kept me. He was in the world.

He was in the world. Were you going into Canada or even? No, no, I was leaving Canada, but the American Border Patrol is inside of Canada. So there's a couple of places like in Ireland, America. And I think Mexico as well where they have like stationed their own border patrol guys. Yeah, you can do the border process on that side. So that on this side you can just land domestic and be on your merry way. Yeah.

And it's good though because like usually those guys are more woke. Like those border patrol guys are more on that side. Yeah, on the American than the American ones I think. So they just kind of go, all right, well, you're fine. Get in there. Yeah, but the reason I ask you is because you have, especially right now, you have such an insane reputation that precedes you, depending on where people get their news.

Do you know what I mean? Like I find it so interesting. So if you read, let's say, what people would term mainstream or legacy media, you know, like old newspapers and stuff like that, I would say that you're categorized as an extreme leftist who is like radical. That's what they say, right?

And then if I go on my, like Twitch or any of like the younger, you know, web places, wherever they are, people are like, yeah, this is, Hassan's a political commentator who's actually speaking about what's happening and he's not afraid to tell his truth. If I go to right wing media, I mean, that one's obvious. You're a terrorist. I think you know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course. Sometimes they call you a radical terrorist, and I'm like, I don't understand the difference. Is they like a tame terrorist? Yeah, there's a moderate terrorist. Yeah, there's a moderate terrorist. Yeah, moderate terrorism is Nancy Pelosi. We're both communists. I see.

But she's a more moderate terrorist. So you're a radical terrorist and she's a moderate. Okay, I see. Okay, so there's that version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, where do you situate yourself in it? Or do you even think you sit in one place? Because I'll tell you why I ask this question.

I've learned from myself personally in life. Depending on who I meet, they have a very different starting point as to where to position me. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I want to know if you position yourself in one place or if you're just a human being navigating, like, how do you position yourself?

I'm just a normal guy. So from my perspective, I just see myself as a regular dude who has a lot of strong opinions and isn't afraid to talk about those opinions. And I know that sounds almost like a political answer, but it's just true. I don't think of myself as like a famous person. I don't think of myself as like a dangerous radical, obviously. I just want what's best, what I think is best for a society. Huh.

And that's it. But you are, you are famous now. I guess. No, not you guess. Come on, Hassan. Come on, Hassan, don't be humble here with us. Hassan is number on the call sheet and biting it. No, just serve the other people first.

Oh, come laugh. No, whether you like it or not. Like, because you have been thrust into a spotlight where people listen to what you're saying people look to you i would even argue that you have the ability to shift and move people's votes and opinions in the country now apparently don't don't don't talk about that too much though because everybody gets mad at me when when people start addressing that wait really liberals get mad at me about uh that exact uh influence that they think i wield i i i don't think i'm like a kingmaker per se the way that it's been presented yeah um i

do have some influence certainly uh and i think uh it's mostly within the activist base of the party yeah the door knockers the community organizers the labor union organizers rank and filers and whatnot uh so so we do have the capacity to to you know uh offer a lot of help to candidates that align with us um and i think that's that's very frustrating for obviously the republicans who think we're dangerous terrorists but certainly even for some centrists in the Democratic Party as well because I've been getting attacked obviously my entire life and my entire career by Republicans, neo-Nazis, the far right, and everything else. Yeah. But I would say that in these last couple of years, I've also started getting a lot of ire from Democrats, moderate Democrats, corporate-backed Democrats, neoliberals in general,

the third way and all of these other institutions like lobbyist groups that want the Democratic Party to to maintain this moderate pivot permanently, constantly conciliatory to right-wing culture warframing. And I obviously oppose that. And I think that's precisely the reason why Kamala Harris lost. It's the reason why Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump now twice. And I want to change that. But these lobbyists don't want to change that. Because that's where their bread is buttered, and they get very pissed off. You say your whole life and your whole career,

but take us back. What brings you to this point? Like, we meet you at this moment in your life, but like, how does Hassan Piker come to be? Like, where were you born? I was born in America. No, no, I'm not saying it like a border agent. I'm saying like a life story.

You're so defensive about it. This man is like, I'm like, where were you born? I was born here. I'm born in America. Listen. I don't know if you heard, but the federal government's coming after me currently. We actually need to talk about the air. So I need to say it.

I was born here. I'm an American citizen. I could run for president. I would never do that, though. So don't get scared. Oh, man. You know what's funny about this is I do find it hilarious that over the years, in a good way, I'm not saying this in a bad way at all, but over the years,

the border agents at American airports and ports have become increasingly immigrants. So it's interesting to be at the border, interviewed by an immigrant, who's now, I'm assuming in America as a citizen. It's an amazing experience for an immigrant. Yeah, but it's also interesting. They get it. Yeah, but it's also interesting when it feels like

they're more likely to kick you out. Yeah. No, no, no. You've never had that feeling. Never. That's crazy. No, no, in fact, I feel like it's a, give him hell, I have a nine hour shift.

But you, on the other hand, 30 days, you have a good time. I like that. I've never felt that way. You have an unbelievably positive outlook. Yeah, but he's a positive guy. That I think is borderline naivete and maybe even dangerous. You know how many times I've gotten through with that editor?

That's crazy. Spanish is great that the border. What are you talking about? I have the exact opposite experience. That's crazy where I'm like, oh, fuck, here we go. Every time I have to deal with Customs of Border Patrol. I mean, I've been detained by Customs of Border Patrol before as well. Yes, both when I'm flying in because they do the Triple

S or whatever. I've got the triple S. Yeah, yeah. What's the triple S? Yo! It's a random... Fellow triple S. Random security.

I think it's actually four S's. It might be four. Wait, I think you're four. Yeah, yeah. But they don't tell you. Wait, so you get to the window. Okay, so I'll explain. Yeah.

You have your ticket for your flights, right? If you have it on your phone, it just tells you no, you can't check in. It doesn't tell you... It's just like, you just need to speak to somebody when you get to the airport. Just speak to somebody. You're like, why? I want to check in. They're like, just relax.

You checked in but we won't give you a boarding pass Just talk to someone You get to the airport When you get to the desk They ask for your passport They ask for everything They then print your boarding pass They say nothing to you

And then on your boarding pass Underneath like a bunch of random You know all the stuff Ticket number boarding time all of that I think there's all some bullshit numbers there That don't need anything Yeah there's just four S's

Yeah Random security clearance Yeah it's just goes SSSS Super Secret Security Search Is that what it I don't think so. Oh, that would be good.

That would be good. And then what happens is you move through the airport. Yeah. You still nothing. Yeah, nothing happens generally. Your bags are checked in. But then when you get to the gate. The boarding gate.

Yeah, yeah, the boarding gate. Everyone bought, and then they pull you aside and then, excuse me, would you like to take off your underwears, please? Oh, wow. Yeah, they do a special. I mean, they don't do. Okay. But they go like, but they.

Squat and cough? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no squatting. Just coughing. Well, maybe they do it. Maybe they do it to other people. Wait, so they pull you to the side. Yeah. Then you have to go into a little secret room, which is not a secret.

Some airports, they just create like a partition. Yeah. So you're outside, but inside. Yeah. And they empty everything. Yeah. And sometimes you're with a big group and they're all walking and you get pulled to the side and you're like waving at them.

Like, bye. Yeah. See you on the flight, hopefully. And that's usually when you're on foreign soil coming back into the United States of America. Uh-huh. Because they have, like, like double triple TSA basically when you're an American citizen, I guess, coming back. But I

got detained at O'Hare Airport by Customs and Border Patrol on my way back from France. I was about to speak at University of Chicago at the Politics Institute. And they pulled me aside and they had revoked my global entry, which I never got to use, which is really annoying. I hate that. It took so long. I had to do all these interviews. And you have to give your life. Yeah. And they gave it to me. I got the card and I never even got to use it.

The first time I use it, I get detained. And yeah, they pulled me aside into a secondary detention area where there's like an interrogation room and you sit in there. Live. Yeah. It was in the news. Yeah. They did the secondary detention and then interrogation where they asked me like, what are your

thoughts on Israel? What are your thoughts on Donald Trump? have you ever been in contact with like anyone from Hamas, Hezbollah, Ansala movement like the Houthis, all this stuff. When you're in, when you're sitting there in that moment, was there a part of you that just goes like, just say nice things about Donald Trump? No.

I mean, I... Not even a little bit? Well, there were, here's what I did. When they kept asking me about Hamas, what my thoughts are, I just kept repeating, Hamas is a designated as a terrorist organization by the state department. I just kept repeating that line over and over again. Which is a fact.

It's just a fact. Yeah. It's not your opinion. It's not my opinion. It's just a fact about Hamas. And then when they asked me about Trump, I was like, that's when I did pushback where I was like, yeah, I don't like them. Like, what do you mean? Yo, damn.

I was like, yeah, I don't like them. What are you talking about? I'm an American citizen entering my country. Like, that's ridiculous. And they didn't give me too much stress about that. But they did ask a lot about like the people that I had interviewed. There was this Yemeni team. teenager was 19 years old.

And the media dubbed him Tim Huthy Shalameh. He was... That was creative. Yeah. That sounds like something you would say. It is, but I didn't. No, you didn't say it. He never...

But creative words, this one. Kind of my vibe, but definitely not me. Say that one. Yeah. Tim Houthi Shalameh. So, yeah, I did get him... I did get that from Trevor, by the way. No, whoa, whoa, whoa.

He texted it to me. He texted it to me. He was like, that's a good one. You should use this. Don't involve me. I know my friend's words. Don't, He's like, look, look, obviously.

He said, obviously the Ansala movement is doing the right thing. Edit, edit, asterisk, asterisk, delete, delete, asterix delete. So, you know, it's cool, though. It's fine. You can deny it now. This guy, you're playing here, my man. I wasn't born in this country, my man. You're playing games here, ma'am.

but yeah i um uh they were asking me about like uh whether he like whether he like whether this person was actually a part of the hoothy movement and i was like i got lucky i think or they did this deliberately the guy i was talking to was going back to what you were talking about an arab uh cbp officer so he was knowledgeable about like the the region at least okay okay so i think he was like a counterterrorism guy and i was just like no the dudes name is Rashid al-Hadad. He's Sunni. He's a Sunni, Yemeni, and obviously his last name is not Al-Huthi, and he's not a part of the Houthi movement, not a part of Ansar al-I. He's like, oh, okay, I understand that. But what's interesting about that is it's not illegal. Like,

as an American citizen and as a member of the media, of course I'm going to sometimes talk to members of, you know, state-sponsored terrorist organizations. That's a normal part of the process, And it's protected by the First Amendment, right? And I haven't. So I told them that I had not. But it is something that is very strange to ask someone who is a member of the media on their entry into the country because I think they were trying to tie that back to offering material support. This is a real big point of contention right now in constitutional law as well. Yeah.

where they are the administration of the State Department, the government is trying to basically expand the boundaries of what constitutes for material support. Because material support terrorist organizations is very illegal. And just to break that down for some, so we're on the same page. When you're saying material support of a terrorist organization, the United States government has said, like most governments, I'm assuming in the world, it is illegal to support a terrorist organization overseas financially. or with arms or now it's becoming media, I guess.

But now that's interesting. But now they are trying to expand it into speech. And one of the first things that they did was actually legal counsel, which again is a constitutionally protected rights. So they were trying to prosecute lawyers that would defend people who's been accused of terrorism. Yeah, exactly. And it didn't work. They put that on the back burner.

but I think now with this administration, they're trying to punish dissidents and they're trying to erode the First Amendment, really. I mean, they could expand it. If you look at the Nth degree, they could expand it to you even having an interview with somebody, regardless of your support of them. Because they could argue that the interview was platforming them. And so you've given them some of your material support, which is your subscriber base. Yeah. And that's obviously totally ridiculous, antithetical to the First Amendment. So what were you going to say?

No, no, no, no. I was agreeing with him. I was saying the audience is now seen as material support. Yeah. It's scary. I was about to say, are you not scared living this life? I mean, it's not great. It's definitely tense at times, but someone's got to do it, you know?

And the way I see it is like I'm speaking for, for the most part, voiceless people, people whose voices are never heard. And someone has to do that. And I do believe in the better nature of man that they, if they, if they, encounter this information and have a sense of charitability, they will understand and they will change their minds. Yeah, but what I mean is like, I'm just talking about you on a human level. How has it affected how you move through the world? So there's our front facing selves. And then there's the us that we just live with every single day. Like the person who hears a bump in

the middle of the night, the person who hears footsteps running behind them and it's a jogger. Like, have you found that your nervous system has changed over the years that, you know, as your profile has evolved? I mean, I've had to deal with cyberstalkers for most of my life before I gained more mainstream credibility and more mainstream attention. Yeah. So I'm pretty used to being on the receiving end of death threats, doxing, swatting, things of that nature.

And unfortunately, it's a part of the job. It shouldn't be. It's horrifying. But you just kind of get used to it after a while. You say it's a part of the job, but... I say this with all due respect. It's not necessarily. It's a part of what your job has sort of become.

Like I think you have a lot of bravery in saying this. But there's a lot of people who don't have this as a part of their job. Like there's a lot of news anchors who don't have these issues. There's a lot of people who are, you know, they're hosting like a debate show on cable television. They go in war zones and they come back and they don't have. So I would love to know like when it first started. Like what was the, which platform were you on where you started to notice, oh, I'm not just breaking through to the people I'm speaking to, but I'm starting to piss off the people I'm speaking against. I mean, even when I was at the Young Turks, all the way back in like 2014, 2015, when I would like randomly appear on some of the shows.

And then certainly after 2016, when I had my own show on the platform on Facebook called The Breakdown, where, I started noticing that I think that was the first time I ever saw one of these forums where, you know, neo-Nazis congregate where they were like mapping out the blueprints of my, my apartment and the apartment complex in general. Are you shitting me? And, you know, talking about how I had two pit bulls. You know, I had a pit bull and my roommate had one as well. And they were talking about how like you need to come in with like a stick of salami or something to like bribe the dogs. and then, you know, and how they would just like break in to my house and kill me. And that was terrifying when it first happened.

But that is so commonplace that I just don't even think of it. That was, you know, more than 10 years ago at this point. So it's just, you know, it's not something that I think about all that much. Yeah. Or place a lot of emphasis on because I feel like that would almost allow these people to win because they want to create an environment of fear, an environment of tension that disrupts what I want to do. And I'm not going to give into that. And I mean, I even said this after Charlie Kirk got assassinated.

I was supposed to debate him two weeks after his assassination. Obviously, it didn't happen. But one of the things that people kept asking me is like, do you have security? Are you changing things? And for the first week or so, I had to cancel some of my public appearances. But shortly after that, I started going back out there, going out in public, going to protests again. And people kept saying, like, aren't you worried? And my answer always is the same.

It's just I can't let fear change what I want to do. I can't let fear influence my life in this way. So I choose not to think about it. Many of my friends think I'm insane for that reason. But I guess sometimes you've got to be a little insane. I mean, if you want to change things, there's a certain level of insanity that's required. It doesn't matter what field you're in. If you're in science, if you're in music, if you're in comedy, if you're in political commentary, it doesn't matter what you're in.

But I guess what intrigues me about you is how it doesn't seem to have necessarily changed you. Or maybe it has and I haven't seen it. You know, so when you stream, one of the things about streaming that's unique is that, you know, as the name suggests, it's like a stream of consciousness. You know, so when you were on the Young Turks, you was like very prepared and, you know,

this is something that's gonna be put out and it can be edited and it can be, but when you're streaming, it's you. You say something and it's out already. It's, I've always wondered how much stress that puts on you because, you know, when we're saying stuff, anything can come out of your mouth.

Yeah. And then there's a moment where you're like, oh damn. Like all the stuff that's not going to make it to the final cut that you said

about these state sponsor terrorist organizations. Two more things. You see this guy. Yeah. Which made me, it shocked me. It shocked me.

I was flabbergasted. Yeah, I just, I had no idea. I couldn't believe what was going on. Oh, man. I had no idea what opinions you hold. So much.

But, yeah. No, but like I'm saying, when you're, when you're in that, space, you also didn't change your rates. So this is, okay, this is what I, I notice. And it's, it's something that's always plagued me in American political commentary. A lot of how American political commentators act is not sort of how they are and it's not how they feel.

Oh yeah. It seems like, put on a persona depending on. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot of money to be made from doing this. Oh, yeah. Right? There's a lot of. lot of fame and support. There's a lot of fame. There's a lot of power. But my issue is that it's not them. So I remember when the first time this

happened to me, it was a rude awakening. I had been on the daily show for like a year or two years. And I got invited to an event. It was like the hundred most influential like news people in America type thing. But it's only like journalists and news and whatever. And I get there. And I'll never forget somebody from an extreme like right wing public.

vacation, they came up to me. And when they walked up to me, I genuinely thought they were going to fight. I was like, okay, I'm ready. I just thought, okay, this person's coming to fight. I've talked shit about them and what they've said. I believe it, genuinely. They're going to fight me. And they came up to me and stretched out hand and was like, hey, look at this guy.

Hey, Trevor, how are you doing, man? What's going on? Oh, look at this. Not bad. Not bad. And I promise you now, not even God as my witness. Kibuka, anyone who worked with me at the time can tell you. The next day when I opened the office.

So those are higher than God. Yeah, because you can't ask God. Maybe God will tell you a different thing. That's crazy. No, because God is. Stuff that he said. Yeah. Yeah, now he's,

now we know he's a radical atheist as well. No, because my thing is, when people say God is my witness, you can't ask God yourself maybe. Maybe you don't even know which God I'm saying. But I can also give you humans in case you want to ask them. So true. For reference sake. Yeah.

The next day, first thing I said, not only did I not engage in this conversation. I actually felt like an asshole because you could see he was looking at me like, why you're being like this? Yeah. Yeah. Damn. I've had this exact same experience.

Yeah, but then I remember going, oh, you've had this. I remember going, am I. I'm taking this seriously. I was like, oh, I'm saying what I believe, but you are in wrestling. Yes. I'm out here thinking I am fighting the Incredible Hulk. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like I'm Hulk Hogan. Let me tell you something, brother. And then when I meet him, he's just like, hey, I'm Terry. Yeah. And I was like, no, I came here to destroy you. Yeah. Because this is how I feel. The reason I bring this up is because, you know, you look at Charlie Kirk, you look at a lot of the rhetoric in America.

I find it interesting how in all of those moments, people who were espousing certain opinions and ideas very quickly like pulled down a mask and they go, hey, you know, I know sometimes in this country people get heated and but, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know. You know, we need to, and I'm like, wait, wait, what is happening right now? We need to cool down the temperature. Yeah, but I go, you've said that Donald Trump is the second coming of Hitler. You've said that this man is going to abolish the Constitution. On a public platform. You said these things as a person. Yes.

Then something happens. Someone shoots at Donald Trump and misses. And then you come out the next day and you go, guys, guys, guys, I know that he might be the second coming of Hitler. But he's our president and we have to stand behind. I'm like, do you not see No, but I'm like, do you not see the inconsistency of what you're doing? Yeah.

And more dangerously, do you not see that you are creating K-Fabe? You're creating wrestling with real people's lives. Yeah. And then when you start to get afraid, you go, why are you guys taking it seriously? And so I want to know from you, because you've remained like consistent through it all, do you find it difficult to just like be you

when you know that some people are playing a character version of themselves? So I had the almost identical experience that you're describing when I went to the White House correspondence, dinner, weekend activities one of the weekends many, many years ago when I was at the Young Turks and they were throwing an event.

I didn't actually attend the event itself, but I walked into a bar. And this is at the peak of like Trump won. All of a sudden, The entire press is there, right? The press pool is there. All these commentary people are there. And I think it was Kelly Ann Conway that walked into the bar.

And the room lit up because everyone was excited. Anthony Scaramucci, Sean Spicer, all these people walk in. And these liberal commentary people, these journalists who have, like, written scathing reports about these people were excited to take photos with that. Yes. Yes, this thing. And that's where I was reminded of, and I hate this guy, obviously, rest in piss, Andrew Breitbart, but I was reminded of his statement about how DC is Hollywood for ugly people.

It's true. I mean, sometimes you can be an asshole, but you can get it right. And he was right about that. It is Hollywood for ugly people, where it's, for the most part, the K-Fabe is absolutely real. Like these guys see what they're doing as, theatrics for the most part. They don't like, not to say that all

reporters are like this, obviously not. There's some brilliant journalists out there and some great people in the commentary sphere as well. And there are certainly issues that they do care about, right? Where they are uncompromising, where their true side comes out, their true

opinions come out. But for the most part, everyone in that bubble, in the media bubble is playing a role and they see it as such. And maybe it's not dissimilar to, I guess, like, having a co-worker that you disagree with vehemently, but you know, you're chill towards them at the water cooler. I don't know. Maybe it's something like that, but I don't like that at all because, like, these are my real opinions. I can't

lie about who I am because I'm live for eight hours a day, seven days a week. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's impossible for me to put on a persona. I can be more buttoned up in moments like this. on a podcast where I'm not like, you know, inundated with messages coming in from the side on the chat. Because, like, the medium that I occupy is very interactive. That's what makes it so different. Right. But the issues I talk about are emotionally charged and very personal for a lot of people, right? It's very polarizing.

And it's a perfect disaster to, say the least. I mean, it's just you have, you're talking about politics, eight hours a day, seven days a week. And anyone from all around the world anonymously can come in and try to pick apart what you're saying or piss you off or say something heinous. In real time, yeah. In real time. And many people do take advantage of that. That, in my opinion, creates really productive discourse and can be unproductive. Oh, interesting.

But then on top of that, I have entire groups organized on the Internet that sit inside of Discord servers and subreddits that spend a good deal of time watching and logging every. single thing that happens on the stream so they can like clip something out of context and then disseminate it to a lot of right wing groups. And I've noticed that this is something that happens almost exclusively to people on the left. People on the left have to face opposition from the entirety of the right wing, right, from moderate Republicans all the way to neo-Nazis and white nationalists alike. But they also face a lot of opposition from a big chunk of the Democratic Party's commentary base as well. not necessarily the voters but certainly from consultant groups lobbyists and and uh you know those

invested in maintaining the the corporate interests at the at the center of power in the democratic party and aOC has to deal with this all the time as well Bernie Sanders has to deal with this all the time as well there's this like very different set of standards for people who are bold advocates uh to to you know make people's lives a little bit better than it actually is people who do believe in that, people who are considered radical, I guess, for American politics. Not so radical for European politics. I mean, Bernie Sanders would be the average politician in Norway, right? His attitudes. His views are not radical at all. As a matter of fact, he would probably slot into like a center, maybe even a center right party in some of these countries, right? Or at least his output. But in America, if you're advancing the interest of Medicare for all, the interests of the people,

over interests of corporations and profit, you're seen as this, like, crazy guy. A lot of people have started referring to you as the Joe Rogan of the left. How do you feel about that? I mean, I have my opinions, but I want to know, because you're the person they're speaking about it.

Yeah. You know, what you think Joe Rogan is a goon. But... A goon? Yeah. What a funny word. He's kind of a dumb ass, but... Not a word, my friend, would use.

A goon. That's not a goon. Yeah. Trevor would never say Joe Rogan. Trevor would say friend. Yeah. Confidant. Trusted confidant.

Yeah. Yeah. Fellow bow hunter. Yeah. Broth heads galo. Elk. Elk hunting, yes. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I don't align with Joe Rogan on virtually any issue, especially as of late. No, no, no. But I think what they mean is like... Your influence is like... Your influence. They're saying I'm like reaching out. They're saying...

You are, there's this, there's this school of thought that says you are what, ironically, the Democrats said they needed after Trump one even. Yeah. And then going into like Trump's second term. Trump two. Yeah, Trump two. I like sequels. They went like, oh, you know what's lacking on the left?

The left doesn't have a Joe Rogan. The left doesn't have a manosphere. The left doesn't have a space where there's engaging hard discussion that isn't, doesn't have a veneer of CNN on it, doesn't have the lobbyist stench on it. It needs, and then they said, this is the person. Hassan Piker is the Joe Rogan of the left. And that's what I mean, is like, how do you respond to that? So a couple things. When they were doing that, they kept coming to me and going, you're the Joe Rogan of the left. What do you think is the problem with the party? And I kept telling him, this is an issue that you can't podcast your way out of. Like,

this is a problem. This is a crisis within the ranks of the Democratic Party. It's a, it's a messaging problem, but more importantly, it's a policy problem. Oh, yeah. Having a bunch of, you know, sponsored or well-funded liberal content creators is probably good to combat some of the misinformation if they're, you know, focusing all their efforts on tackling, you know, the growth of right-wing independent media that's still firmly committed to the party apparatus as a part of its propaganda machine. But you're not necessarily going to win a...

elections off of that alone. What needs to change is not the media ecosystem and the media environment. What needs to change is the party. One of the biggest issues with Kamala Harris was that she was incapable of defining herself with key policy prescriptions that that people could identify with. And instead, she was defined by her opposition. That's why Kamala Harris is for they, them, add worked. I guess, if you. you ask the Democratic Party consultants, not because everyone was like viciously transphobic and like primarily invested in like punishing 1% of the American population. Certainly there's some people who wanted that.

But it was because of a lack of clear messaging on key policy issues from the Kamala camp that allowed the opposition to define her. We have to fix that was my argument. And I kept warning over and over again leading up to the election and certainly after the election, I kept talking about this all the time. They, of course, predictably did not listen. They said, no, you're the Joe Rogan of the left. And then I was like, okay, all right, bet, sure, I'm going to now also push forward candidates that are bold, that are actually invested in making material changes that will improve people's lives. Zahamam Dani was one of them, right? And then they

went, no, no, no, not like that. We don't want that actually at all. You're a terrorist. actually. Hopefully, Trump, he's right here. This guy. Get him. That's what it turned into. We'll be right back after the short break. There are a ton of articles written about you, as you're saying, from the left, just about like how this guy's the worst thing to happen to the Democratic Party. And this guy is, you are destabilizing what doesn't need to be more destabilized. You know, it's funny. I actually want to know what you think. I'm torn on the, the Kamala and Hillary thing because we are unable to run multiple simulations of our lives, or at least like we don't know if we can.

We always say that Hillary lost because of her messaging, blah, blah, blah. We say that Kamala Harris lost because of her messaging, blah, blah, blah, blah. I sometimes think we take for granted the fact that they were both women. And I don't know how much you lose by being a woman running for president. America has never had a woman president. Radical misogynist. No, you can Because I'm sorry

Don't run women This is how we get the clicks What I'm saying is What I'm saying is this right Donald Trump lost an election Who did he lose to? A man No, no

Stick with me on this Right An old man Who had never beaten anyone In any major election Yeah Office fight Well you don't know

I agree But you don't know Apparently he was what you know, he did a lot for South Africa's liberation. Who, Joe Biden? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fully, apparently. Apparently, like, back in the day he was, no, no, really.

No, no, 100%. He lied about getting arrested, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he lied about that. And yes, no, he was actually anti-apartheid. This is true. Yes, yes, which was a big step when a lot of people were not. Which was very strange because he was also radically in opposition to desegregation in the

United States of America. and even at the same time that he was like anti-apartheid in South Africa, he literally was, you know, co-sponsoring bills alongside Strom Thurmond. Yes, but he's right. I'm trying so hot. Sleepy Joe. But he was against apartheid and also at the same time he was against South African apartheid. He was very much in favor of Israel, which again, another contradiction.

Yeah, but you know what's interesting about that? I don't know if you've ever seen the interviews of Nelson Mandela when he comes to the United States just after he's been released from prison. And he's like free. The version of him that I call A.M. What's that? Angry Mandel.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when he wasn't taking any nonsense. He wasn't taking any nonsense. And then they like ask him. They go like, so, Mr. Mandela. You know, you're going to, you know, we've got enemies with Israel and why won't you team up with it? And he was like, the freedom of the Palestinian people.

And he goes in hard. And he's like, I will never support their freedom. And they're like, but you're our ally. And he's like, just because your enemies are not my enemies. Yeah. Your enemies, I believe in the front. And he goes in heart. And you can see they're like, ah, my man.

Well, it's also about Che Guevara too, because they were like, they were hitting him on Fidel Castro in Cuba. And it's like, yeah, I feel like you're oblivious to the amount of effort and manpower expended by the Cuban government at a time when, like, they didn't have too much. They had nothing. They had nothing and they spent so much trying to liberate Africa. And of course there's going to be some shared resentment against Western colonialism. Yeah.

And why would they betray, why would he turn around and betray other people going through similar plights? Yeah, but what I was saying about just so we're on the same page is I sometimes wonder if, I'm sure there's a term for this, we will, We will answer our question based on the results as opposed to actually looking at what happened because we can't know. So with Kamala Harrison and Hillary Clinton, we'll say they lost because. But if Donald Trump had lost that first election, we would have gone, Hillary ran the right campaign and of course Donald Trump was going to lose. When Donald Trump lost in 2020, it seemed obvious. It's like, well, of course he was going to look at all the dumb things. He was saying drink bleach.

Of course he's going to lose. Then when he wins in the next election, he didn't really change anything. And then he wins in that one. And I honestly find myself, I just have to find, I have to ask myself the question. I have to go,

how many percentage points come from people in America who are just not willing to vote for a woman? Just like how many people out there go, I don't think, because I would read this and I would see people saying, I just don't think a woman can run the country. I'm all for women, but I just don't know that a woman can be trusted

to run the country. And men and women alike saying this, by the way, spread out over the country. What do you think? Even if it's three percentage points. No, bro, what do you mean? What do I think? Yeah. Can a woman run the country? Run the country to him. Any time. Any day. Let me put it this way, Eugene. Yeah, I'm even going to go a step further, my friend.

I'm even going to go a step further. He's going to step further. Let me say this, my man. In a world where we have lived through multiple world wars and famines and civil wars and in that world, that's not the time. to say, can women do this or not? Does that make sense? 100%.

If our plane was flying... You're saying, man ruined it already. I was saying if our plane was flying with no turbulence, no crashes, no disasters at all. If our airline, as men, was running flawlessly, then I'd be like, ah, ladies... On time. Ladies, take a back seat. This is not the time for you to be flying this thing. We got it.

The fellas got it. But I'm just saying, the way the fellas have been handling things... The fellas don't got it? Right now, how much are you paying for gas? That's the fellas. I don't see any women involved in those negotiations. Invasions? I'm just saying.

So I'm not saying the women would be better. I'm not saying that. You're not saying they'll be better. I'm just saying that. They'll be okay. We should not act like the thing that is happening now is the one. Wait, but sending out to one lady to go against many fellas that are out there running countries and starting wars and conflicts. You know who was one of the most effective?

You know who was one of the most effective? Margaret Thatcher. Merkel. Angela Merkel was one of the most effective in that. Now, she's not perfect by any means, but I still have, I've yet to meet a perfect president. I'm going to put it out there. Yeah, I am diametrically opposed to all of these conversations. I say no women.

No, I'm kidding. You're dead. I'm like, you're dead one. You're dead baby. I think. We got him. It's a wrap. I go back to Barack Obama.

Yes. I think in the United States of America, hatred for women is definitely a real thing. We live in a patriarchal society. But we also live in a very anti-black society. So when you're a young black man whose middle name is Hussein, and you're running, there's going to be hurdles that you have to climb. Yes.

And you can overcome those hurdles. My problem with Kamala Harris was that she recognized, she understood that there were hurdles. She's a black woman running against a white supremacist. like Donald Trump, but she didn't have the campaign and the platform that would actually convince people that this was someone to vote for. I completely agree with you there. So I don't discount the notion that, you know, people who are not old white guys are going to have a harder go at it.

That's certainly true. But I think they can overcome that with good policies. And if you want, you can have an old white guy as well, Bernie Sanders. He had the good policies. People loved him. Yeah. I think in every poll, and I stand to be corrected because there are many polls, I know this, but in most polls where he was up against Trump, he won.

Yeah. Yeah. And Trump knew that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah. Every time they asked people, Bernie versus Trump, Bernie would win. Yeah.

Now, people will say, oh, well, Hillary Clinton would have won on those polls too, which is true. But I think what the people were looking for at that point and are still looking for, really, was an anti-establishment candidate. it's someone because they came out of the recognition that the system wasn't working for them, right, in all of the different parts of the country that are forgotten, whether it's West Virginia or Gary Indiana. Yeah. There are a lot of people who are suffering.

And it felt like neither the establishment of Republicans nor the establishment Democrats were actually focusing on their economic hardships. They only offered sometimes lip service to it, but never any like bold radical changes. So when Trump comes in like a wrecking ball and. and ritualistically humiliates the establishment Republicans and is seen as like a heterodox Republican who, ironically enough in 2016 was actually running as a moderate.

A lot of people forget this. He was pro-trans in 2016. He was anti-war. He was anti-war pro-trans. He was like, there's too many of them, to be honest. You didn't say it like that. Okay, the way he said, he was like, and I mean, my sons love them.

They love the guns. To be honest, I'm a little uncomfortable, a little uncomfortable with how many they have. But I mean, what are you going to do? I mean, we'll leave it up to the States. But if I, if I had my way, we'd have a few fewer of them. But I mean, we'll see. We'll see. That's how he said it. Yeah. Clip that one. He knows how to do it really well because they talk. You know? They're always talking. Yeah. They're always conversing. Oh, man. But you see, whenever I listen to how Trevor views American politics and I obviously

watch some of your content and I hear you speaking from an outsider's point of view I think to myself Why is Trevor not more like Hassan? Exactly That's what I think I'm like

When we look outside Whenever we hear America doing something To another country It's because apparently that country's leader Does not respect democracy Yeah yeah

So when I look at your guys Indaba's Which is news I go Surely you guys voted For this situation And you spend eight hours a day, every day,

talking about this kind of stuff. You're arguably in the core phase of what people really want, and you get to hear unfiltered what people want. So from an outsider, isn't that what America voted for and for you being in there, what do people want now? I think most people

don't really know what they want, and there is a very sophisticated influence peddling operation that is actively subverting democracy. So, it's not a scene. It's not a secret that Americans are not the most educated. They don't have a lot of political education. They don't have a profound understanding of history. And I think that's by design as well.

I mean, our institutions are crippled, public education, public schooling in general. And I think that's deliberate, especially since the Reagan era. But outside of that, most people are just kind of operating off of vibes. Most people are not voting. The plurality is usually not voting. Right? But out of the people that are voting, and there's a multitude of factors for that, there's the electoral college and the fact that you vote not on a federal holiday, but on a workday, on a Tuesday, these are specific hurdles designed to stop certain people from voting. And so most people need a buy-in. They need something to motivate them to go out and vote. And if the Democratic Party's modus operandi is to say, look, the other side is so much worse,

us come on just vote for us who are we going to vote for nobody come on and then most people go i bet i'll vote for nobody neither party is uh representing my interests and i don't really care it doesn't really matter i have to go back to work every morning i have to focus on my life i have to go deliver uber why do i care about whether there's a democrat or republican ruining my life but most people rate the party as the national democratic party and the national republican party and they look at the output. And they grade the National Democratic Party off of its weakest individuals off of its weakest members. There's a concept called the rotating villain within the Democratic Party's infrastructure where there's always a vote that will spoil a radical agenda that a Democrat

runs on. This happened with Joe Biden. It was Joe Manchin in Kirsten, Cinema, that undermined build back better, the IRA, and watered it down tremendously. Is this a formal thing you're saying? Or are you saying it just, you notice a train. That's what we call it in, I guess, polysci. And that's what, you know, that's what people in the commentary call. One person within the Democratic party. Not one.

Usually it's a, there's always a, depending, if there's six people. Okay, but they are the rotating. So they go like, okay, you guys are going to be the villains for this run. Yeah. You're going to vote against everything that is progressive that people want. But then we all get to say we voted for it. And then you guys get, you'll be the bad guys for this run. Yeah, yeah.

And just make sure it doesn't happen. outbound, outbound congresspersons that are not running for re-election, that are retiring. Like, Jared Golden is one of those guys right now. And he was the lone voice that voted against the war powers resolution. And there's always a guy, Joe Lieberman under the Barack Obama coalition, was the sole vote that stopped the public option from being advanced, which would have been radical change in this country. Is this happening on the Republican side as well as much? No. The Republicans are, the Republicans, I think, are much better at whipping votes because they're, not necessarily because they're more organized, but because they can be open about being pro-corporation. Like, that's their whole thing. Whereas the Democrats, on the other hand, run against corporations, but when they're, but when they're legislating, they still have to be very cognizant of the corporate investors, the real benefactors, the corporate benefactors. And any Democratic, party initiative that they advance will actually harm one sector's investment or one sector's

interest and profit. So they can't really do that. Because if they were to advance Medicare for all, let's take that for one policy that is unbelievably popular. Every other OECD nation has one form of socialized health care except for us. There's reporting on this. I believe it's up to 48,000 people every year that die because they don't have access to health care. in the wealthiest nation on the planet. Like they could just go to their primary care physicians and like figure out what's wrong with them ahead of time or, you know, get the necessary help.

Yeah, I mean, it's a Yale study. I think the numbers might even be higher than that. I find it unbelievable as well. It's just ridiculous number, right? So people want this. Why don't the Democrats advocate for it? Why do the Democrats actually actively push back against it, as Joe Biden did in the 2020 primaries,

in the 2019 primaries, when Bernie was the Medicare for all candidate, Joe Biden came out and he's like, oh, I want the public option, Jack. Never talked about it again, by the way. That's a great Joe Biden. That's a great Joe Biden. That was a great Joe Biden.

That was actually good. Flip that. Yeah, it's because me and him talk on the phone. Oh, nice. Yeah. But he ran in opposition to Medicare for all. And he didn't have any investment in actually pushing for the public option at all.

He never talked about it. Once he actually became the candidate, he stopped talking about the public option altogether. He never brought it up. He never pushed for it. That was designed specifically to tackle Medicare for all in its popularity. And the reason why the Democrats do this is because Aitna, Blue Cross Blue Shield,

and all of these for-profit healthcare providers are massive investors in the Democratic Party. they fund they fundraise for all these candidates so of course they don't care about the population like the politicians that win their raises they don't care about you know fixing this massive crisis in this country they care about managing the crisis and they care about doing PR for the crisis and they care about winning re-election and maintaining the current system no matter how cruel it is and that's just how it works so that's also part of the reason why I go back to how frustrated a lot of these think tanks are about me and have been written

writing extensively about the dangers that I present for the Democratic Party because now I've moved on from just talking about how shit the Democrats are to actually working with other on-the-ground groups and organizations like the Democratic Socialists of America and numerous other orgs to actually run candidates that are pro-Medicare for all that are uncompromising on the issue of Israel where they're like, I'm an anti-Zionist, why are are we giving unlimited bombs to this country that's doing war crimes, that's doing a genocide. And that's a very frustrating reality for the Democrats because the more Zoram Mamdani's that they see all around the country pop up.

Yeah, popping up. And the more grassroots momentum that these people have, the more people are going to look at that and go, wait a minute, you said Zoran was going to be incompetent. You said he was going to be a scary kami. Yep. And yet the budget is balanced. Yeah, budgets balanced. He's one of the best mayors that New York.

York has had. It's just every time I come here, it feels like I'm entering an alternative universe where like things are working somehow. It's ridiculous. Like we're watching from afar a totally different reality in New York City, totally different vibes. Why can't we have that? And once people start asking that question, once people start believing that the government can help and the government should help. Yes. Once they have more confidence in good governance. And once they associate that confidence with democratic socialism, socialism, communism, all of a sudden people are going to want that. And we've seen that in the polls as well. We've seen that in the membership with the DSA, which crossed the threshold of 100,000 paid members. It's a very significant number. And we've

certainly seen that with the approval ratings for democratic socialism in general, where I believe it's like in certain polls, it's like either the plurality or the majority of Democrats say they have sympathies for democratic socialism or even self-identify around like 44% self-identify as democratic socialists within the Democratic Party. So when you look at the young people in those worlds and specific,

because I'm assuming your audience skews young just because of streaming. There's an assumption that I have like on that platform specifically. Definitely. Because I'm on YouTube, you've got a different viewership, you know you're on Instagram, etc., etc.,

but what do you think the democratic establishment is missing about how young people are viewing all of this right now. Because you're speaking to young people and young people are watching you in a very specific way. What are they missing? What are they missing that the Republicans

don't seem to be missing, I should say? Because on the Republican side, it seems like they've got their young men on lock. Yeah. Well, they have a different crisis or a similar crisis on the Republican side as well for a youth vote and youth turnout right now. Oh, no, share, share. And it's actually Israel.

That has become the lightning rod. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it's 54% of Republicans under the age of 55 have a negative opinion of Israel, that is a crisis for the state. That is a crisis for the Republican Party that wants to maintain unlimited loyalty to Israel

and that's certainly a crisis for Israel in general that cannot exist especially in the violent ways that it currently does in the maintenance of an apartheid and constant territorial expansion without unlimited support from the United States of America and the rest of the Western world and without

the political cover that America offers as the hegemon. So that's a huge problem. If they lose the Republicans, it's over. Okay, Israel's done. That's going to be clipped. What you mean is the way it's currently, way worse things about Israel. The way it's currently existing, you know clips, bro. This guy's clipping. Clip that one. Clip, clip that one. Clip him, explain. Clip him. Don't clip. Clip, clip. Clip yourself clipping that. Listen. Clip him. I have said way worse things about Israel than that. Trust me. And it drives people crazy. It drives like the pro-Israel advocacy groups,

crazy where they're like, why won't people, why won't people see that he's a dangerous radical terrorist? Like, I go to the Vanity Fair Oscars party and they're like, why is he allowed to be there? He shouldn't be allowed in mainstream circles. It's like Jonathan Greenblatt and his bald head being like, it should have been me at the Vanity Fair party. Yeah, it's so funny. Oh, man. Yeah, okay, so you think on the, okay, so on the right, that's the lightning rod. That's the lightning rod. On the left, on the left, what is shifting? Why are we seeing a Zoron? Why are we seeing election results like we're seeing?

Because I mean, there's a few that we're seeing now where it looks like there's a shift that's happening. Do you think it's a ripple or do you think it's going to be a wave? I think it's going to be a wave. I mean, they're trying to stop it for sure. They are doing everything they can to stop this momentum, to stop this insurgent campaigning that's taking place all around the country right now. How do you think the messaging has, or what do you think is going right in the messaging? Because a few years ago, when you said the word socialist in any way, the first thing most Americans would say is those are the people who come and take your money. You can't own anything. You can't work towards anything. There's no point in having a job. You can't be wealthy.

You can't build wealth. You can't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That used to be almost across the board what people would say, right? Now, to your point, whether it's polling, whether it's online conversations, where it seems like people are shifting. But there's two interesting sides to it. There's one where people are going, that's not what socialism is or democratic socialism. And then there's another side going,

let them take all the money and let them, you know where they're going, I still think it's that, but I'm actually happy. I want them to take everything away and they want them to. So like, what do you think is resonating about that message specifically? I think it's the contradictions.

They're worsening and they're becoming more apparent and people are cognizant of the reality that they experience pain and they understandably blame the system for it. So they go, this is not working for me. I need an alternative. And this alternative seems fine. I mean, I'm willing to try this out, even in a country as propagandized,

at the heart of empire, the country that won the Cold War, the country that is the defender of, the ultimate defender of capitalism, has destroyed, the living standards of its own citizens to such a degree that they go, you know, I don't believe the Red Scare propaganda actually, or even if I do believe it, I like it, like you said. Yeah. That's because people are suffering and they want an alternative.

And in some ways, that's what Donald Trump did in both 2016. And then when those wounds were not healed or addressed after four years of Biden. And the only thing people remember from the Biden administration was a negative real wage growth for one and a half years as a lot of these economists, and they're still doing this, by the way, kept saying, well, this is a vibe session, actually. Things are great on the economy front. What are you guys complaining about? I mean, I have... What do you get these terms? Vib session. You're making us sound old. No, no, no, that's what they said. That's what they said. Yeah, because what they said was, it's really interesting how they phrase this, right? What they try and do is,

especially the people who run, like, media in the biggest way, what they do is they'll try and tell you as people on the ground that what you're experiencing is not real. These are your feelings. The economy is doing better than ever. You have no idea what we're doing in the background.

Yeah, but working towards. No, but they even go like, your life is better, even though you don't think your life is better, your life is better. Yeah. But what's really sinister? It's exactly.

It's gaslighting and it's sinister. You know why? Because they talk about the economy like everyone is an equal participant in it. That's one of the smartest things they do is they talk about the economy. Look at the GDP. Look at the economy.

The stock market has never been. But it's like, guys, if Jeff Bezos gets into a bus with all of us, the GDP of that bus has gone up dramatically. The value of that bus has gone up. But you know, we do not have that money. Yeah. You can say this bus is doing well. And that is technically true.

But if one person gets off that bus, the bus is broke now. Yeah. And the ones that are in the bus are benefiting. But now, no, they're not even benefiting. Not even? No, because the people in the country are in the bus, right? And they're going, you're doing well. Look how much money is in this bus.

And people are like, yeah, but it costs me 30% more to go and buy ground beef before I go do a barbecue. It's costing me like 20, 30% more for my gas. It's costing me 20, 30% more. My wages are not keeping up. Yeah. My cost of living is going up. But apparently, the country is kick. It's like, no.

The country, yes, the bus is technically doing well. Yes. Because of a few passengers who are doing well. Yes. But the passengers are not actually doing well. And so that, to your point, it becomes like this gaslighting feeling where they go, no, no, no, no, they can't. It's a vibe session. You guys, it's not a recession.

The numbers are not bad. Your vibes are bad. You need to change yourself. Yeah. And that was obviously, yeah, that was incredibly frustrating for people to see. That's crazy. It's one of the things I brought up in the lead up to the 2024 election over and over again where it was like, well, the economy is rebounding, which is true.

It was, right? But what I kept repeatedly explaining to people or trying to was, well, in 2016, Trump won and the economy was seemingly on a much more positive trajectory than it was in 2024. And clearly people were suffering enough back then that they thought, I'm going to vote for this crazy guy, right? And they don't read it as that. They think, oh, it's got to be all these different reasons. And sometimes those different reasons are.

true, you know, white supremacy is powerful force, obviously misogyny is a powerful force. But at the end of the day, those hurdles are climable. Those hurdles can be destroyed if you have a candidate that can communicate honestly and come across as earnest in defense of the people over the interests of corporations. Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing I've noticed, and I think people are noticing en masse. Whether you are for or against the Republican Party, I mean, now really it's the Donald Trump Party because it's not, it's not what it was as a machine before. It is the Donald Trump Party.

It does what it says in many ways. There's many things where it doesn't. But it like, so you know they go like, oh, but he didn't build a wall. It's like, yeah, but he sort of did. He didn't build the physical wall. But he built a wall, if you're honest. If you look at like the visas, the bans,

how few people actually can come into America now, how few people can get jobs, deportation. He built the wall. You know, you go like, oh, no, I'm going to shut this down. He did trade wars, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. He's sort of doing the thing. Whether it's good for the country or not is a separate conversation.

Because, I mean, you look at your bank balance and ask yourself, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then on the other side, it feels like the Democrats, Donald Trump comes in and opens up a toolbox of government. And then the Democrats come in and they go, we don't really have any tools. It's like, that guy's got hammers, he's got screwdrivers. He can build or dismantle anything. And then every time the Democrats get paid.

power, they go, yeah, let's just keep it the way it is and let's be grateful that it still exists. Or let's balance the budget. Oh, yeah. It's always, it's never something radical. It's never something that's going to. Radically change people's lives. Exactly. And even when they do actually make necessary changes, like the ACA was a profound achievement altogether, it wasn't bold enough, it wasn't brave enough. The public option should have been passed as well. But even then, in the process, of passing the Affordable Care Act, Republicans never were going to caucus to the Democrats on this issue,

and they attacked it over and over again, and they took advantage of the gridlock that they were creating, where the Democrats could have just advanced it. They could have the numbers. They could have advanced. They could have been like, fuck off, right? But they allowed this gridlock to take place

where Republicans used that time on the clock, where they were running out the clock, which gridlock is something that most Americans hate. Donald Trump doesn't ever do that. If you notice, that's what I mean. No, we're doing this and I'm going to do an executive order if necessary. Yeah. And then you're going to have to work backwards. Yeah. So, so obviously there was a reluctance to, you know, break things with this rapid successive attacks against the Republicans.

They didn't do that. But in that process, the Republicans had an opportunity to lie about what the ACA was. They said it was death panels. Death panels. Yeah, they said, obviously one of the most radical propositions in the Affordable Care Act. Obamacare was the provision that insurance companies, private health care providers, would no longer be able to deny coverage to people for preexisting conditions. Now, that is such an inhumane concept. And it's so insane because we live in the post-Oabomacare world where healthcare companies can't do that,

that people don't believe that that was. the norm. And people don't believe that Republicans, some of which are still in office, were actively advocating against that. Yeah. It's such a, it's such an inhumane thing. It's a normal part of Republican policymaking that, that most Republicans, there's a poll on this, Republican voters, don't believe the actual impact of the Republican legislative agenda when they're asked about it, where they'll go, okay, you want to vote for Republicans. Republicans are against abortion, abortion is murder. They're like, yes, I'm against abortion, abortion, abortion is murder. So when they actually are faced with the impact, and we saw this happen in the lead up to the

2024 election, when they recognize, oh my God, if we ban abortions, then my daughter might not be able to get an emergency abortion to take care of an ectopic pregnancy. This is now a real crisis, a real health care crisis. They change their tune real quick. So they don't even believe how violent their legislative agenda is that they're pushing, that they're advancing, the Republican voters. And that is a real problem. The other problem is it's much easier to break things, especially if you are directionally on the side of capital.

If you're a capitalist, if you're openly on the side of corporations, as Republicans are, it's much easier to move in that direction. Democrats, on the other hand, have a base that is, in some ways, maybe not a card-carrying communist or whatever, but like anti-capitalist in certain instances, like they are against profit-seeking from corporations. If you want regulations, like environmental regulations,

to protect certain natural resources like the water supply, all of a sudden, you're harming the profits of DuPont, right? DuPont just wants to dump chemicals and whatever they want off of their factories directly into the water supply and dilute the water supply with toxic pollutants. That's very profitable for them to do so.

Now the Democrats all of a sudden have to punish DuPont. Republicans never have to do that. Republicans are never going to punish DuPont. They say, no, it's great. They say it'll figure itself out most of the time. It'll figure itself out. Or they do this thing where they're like, transgender people.

And then they walk the other direction, right? Like they'll be like, oh, DuPont, chemical, okay, have you thought about trans people existing? Isn't that weird and fucked up? And then everyone's like, yeah, actually, that's right. Transgender people do exist and I fucking hate that. The smartest thing you can do to distract people from a real issue is to bring up an issue that doesn't actually affect their real lives, their daily lives, but is easier to grasp and dispute or argue. Yeah.

Because it's just, it's just, what is the chemo? How much should a company be able to dispose or where should they dispose or how should they? What are the classes of different chemicals and how far is a river front? from a residential place. And what is toxicity? How do we measure toxicity? Has anyone died from it? Yeah.

When do we measure the death? Or is it related? Is it a cause? All of these things are difficult. You know what's easy going, is this person a man or woman and should they be in my bathroom? That's like an easy thing. Yeah.

But it feels like, and this is actually why I want to get back to it from like your side. The political side, you know, for lack of a better term, it feels like it's metastasized in America. but the world you're in feels like it's fledgling it feels like something's changing it feels like something's growing like I want to tap into that world

and understand a little bit more about it like why streaming you could have done anything else online but why streaming in particular well when I started streaming I feel like it was different overall we didn't have the clavulars of the world right

I mean, there were different versions of that even before my time, but they were nowhere near as popular. It hadn't reached like mass popularity. I think it was Ninja that like did the Drake collab of Fortnite. And that's when people are like, whoa, what is this? What is the sector? What is going on here? And people started paying attention to it. But at that point, most people were just playing video games.

I came in and I was like, I'm not going to play video games. I'm not very good at video games. I mean, I did play video games initially. But I was like, I want to do political commentary while I play video games. and then stop playing video games altogether and just do political commentary. So that was my evolution. And the reason why I did that...

What games were you playing when you started? Fortnite. Oh, okay. And then, you know, horror games that people love... I was playing hunger games. Yeah. I didn't know what you would like... No, okay, so you were...

Were you a gamer? Yeah, and I still play video games when I have time. Sometimes... But when do you have time? We watch you on... Eight hours a day. No, no, I play on stream or sometimes... Okay, so you still...

Okay, so you still play on stream. Yeah, I still every now and then play games on stream. But nowhere near to the same degree I used to, because at the time I was at the Young Turks, I wanted to place the community of my own. I didn't want to just like work for someone. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I should have something on the side for myself, like something more creative. And I also wanted to practice off-the-cuff-cuff speech because everything that I had done

prior to that was all prescripted. I would write my own scripts. I would turn them into articles for Hufford and Foist. I was doing that and I was getting better at it but I was really bad at off-the-cuff commentary and I guess it's been eight years now it probably worked as I never seemed to shut the fuck up weren't you worried about like making mistakes

weren't you worried or do you embrace that in the you know because it's live it's happening in the moments yeah no it was definitely harrowing at first it was definitely terrifying like putting up a stat for instance you know if you're wrong you go 40% of and it's like, oh, it was actually 20%, and it's not that,

and it was actually people under the age of 50, not people under the age of 15, and people, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that happens from time to time, but it's okay. I mean, I'm a human being. And when that does happen, I correct it.

Usually chat is also very on it. Yeah. Or they'll be like, oh, you got this stat wrong. So there is definitely that. But I have completely dropped that fear. You can't have that fear if you're going to be a live broadcaster, a Twitch streamer.

And when you're doing this, how do you strike the balance between inflaming tensions and inspiring and mobilizing people? I mean, you've got to do a bit of both. I think that's a real problem with the Democratic Party is that they don't identify enemies. They try to get along with everybody else in their commentary. And I think it's good to just say, like, no, billionaires are bad. You know, sometimes they could be, eh, all right. Like Steyer is probably one of the better candidates in the California governor's race. you know, Democrats are too afraid to identify who is actually creating problems in society that many workers can feel.

So then do you think, do you think things are as bad as they are in America because the Republicans govern the way they govern? Or do you think it's gotten that way because Democrats are so feckless that Republicans can govern? I don't even think it's the duopoly. I think the duopoly is a normal part of the process. Look, I'm a socialist. I think it's capitalism. I think that is the real. You think that's the fundamental Oh, 100%. I think that like at its root, we have two liberal parties. One is actually now turning into an illiberal party. One is turning into a fascist party. As as fascism rose a hundred years ago when liberalism was failing, right? Liberalism is in crisis. Liberal capitalist democracy is not working for a lot

of people and they're looking for alternatives and reactionaries are taking advantage of that crisis by reasserting dominance and control in the same exact way that Adolf Hitler did, same exact way that Mussolini did when fascism was first being implemented in Europe as this revolutionary movement that would counter the nefarious forces of socialism, communism, and trade unionism because that if left to their own devices, if they were successful, would truly disrupt the hierarchy of capital. And that's why these movements, these fashion movements, were able to go to small businesses, petite bourgeois, and also big businesses, and, you know, these industrialist capitalists and gain a lot of allegiances from these groups. And they were able to get liberals

to concede as well. And that's how they reasserted dominance. So I hear what you're saying, but I think some people might hear that and go, so are you saying that we then go to communism? And I don't think that's what you're saying if I hear you correctly. I mean I look I I say I'm not a communist people call me that and I don't have any problems with communism I think is a is a decent endpoint you know classless moneyless borderless society it's Star Trek universe whenever I say that people go how could he how could he even mention this but I feel like if you if you think about it like I don't think that's a bad way to live if it if it was implemented so this is this is where I struggle with it as I go

we oftentimes will judge a system based on the examples that we have of it, even if those examples are not accurate. Does that make sense? Yeah, there's been many attempts, and a lot of that has led to failure for a multitude of different reasons. There's mismanagement. Sabotage being one of the biggest sometimes. We always have to acknowledge the interference.

Because when people will talk about capitalism, they will always espouse its like A students. Oh, but look at this and look at this. And that is correct. But when people will talk about socialism, you know, communism maybe more is a harder one because I have yet to see an example of communism that wasn't interfered with those sabotage. So I don't know personally. Well, but even in spite of that sabotage, there is one successful example of, or a couple successful examples of countries that are run by communist parties. Yeah.

It's obviously not at its end stage or anything like that. But China is run by a communist party, Vietnam, Cuba. also run by a communist party. Now, obviously, there's varying degrees of successes here and varying degrees of failure. Successes in comparison to like their starting point, right? Or at their, in their heyday, right? Like, the Cuban revolution was unbelievably successful. And that's precisely the reason why the American government sought to punish them endlessly. And they were only able to survive throughout that process because the USSR came in and was like, we're going to put our nukes here. Did you get a subpoena about Cuba?

I have not received it yet. I only heard about a subpoena being delivered to me from Fox News. Wait, what? But I haven't gotten it. No, you can't be serious. So you haven't received anything. No. But all the news is saying that you have received something.

It goes beyond that. They are claiming that I'm a subversive. I am a foreign agent that hasn't registered with Farah. And it's really funny because like, like, I'm pretty open about my ideology. Like, I'm a socialist. And I think we should not kill the Cuban population. We've been starving them for 60 years. I think it's unbelievable.

It's heinous of war crime. And we should stop that. And then they go, oh, he must be getting paid by the Cuban government to say this. And it's really funny because it's like, with what money? They're broke. They have no money. Because? Like, they don't have anything.

I mean, I guess they have cigars. I don't know. I didn't even get to experience that when I was there. How long were you there for? I was there for two days. And I just, you back-to-back interviews. We were there on a humanitarian aid mission with Progressive International Copink

and, you know, with like 600 delegates, politicians. Corbyn was there, numerous other people, and journalists as well. And I got a journalism visa on top of the humanitarian aid mission that we were accomplishing. So it's doubly messed up at the, admin is coming after me. Yeah, because you see the story, even now the way you told it, the story doesn't, it makes

it seem like you and one other person went to Cuba. Yeah. Because you were paid by an organization there. Yeah. The two of you, only two people went there. Medea Benjamin, the founder of Copeland. Yeah, it's just the two of you. You went there.

Yeah. And then you conspired with their group, state sponsored mission. And they were like, hey, man, here's some money, Hassan. We need you to do this to America. And then you were like, all right, I'm heading back now. remember when earlier we were talking about how they were like oh have you ever communicated with like a member of hamas yeah or anything like that so cuba's technically considered a state sponsor of terror but of course i've communicated with members of the the cuban government i interviewed them on camera carlos gosio is literally

the vice foreign minister and i interviewed him for my documentary so it's not only not illegal but it's been out there for months so they're like oh but but what if that's the what if we decided that that was illegal. You know, a lot of this conversation revolves around people's stupidity and people's lack of understanding of how things work, where they'll describe, this is something I talk about with conservatives all the time. They describe something as though it's nefarious. They do this all the time.

They rely on people's lack of understanding of complex subjects or even sometimes simple subjects. Where one example I was used is transgender surgeries. They describe this process as like gruesome mutilation where they're like, oh, the doctors come in with a hack saw and like they, they. cut off body parts and all this stuff. And it's like, yeah, that's just every type of surgery. You're just describing, like, can you imagine if you were like, well, open heart surgery? They come in with a hammer and a pick and they just like open up your chest. Oh, and they have like a, what are they? The jaws of life. They like rip your, your rib cage open

your part. They split you in two and they, yeah. Yeah, they cut you up. Imagine if you were like, I hate open heart surgery because it scares me. It's like we, no one should be able to get an open heart surgery. It scares me. But that's how Republicans operate on a lot of issues. And that's kind of what they're doing right now with the story. Not only did this subpoena not even arrive, let's say it's happening, right? And I've described it in great detail to my audience. I've talked about my experiences in Cuba. I did a documentary on it.

All this stuff, right? They'll take pieces of my commentary and be like, he's leaking all the secrets. He's leaking the pay structure that exists. And it's like, no, that's not everything that I'm mentioning is like publicly available information that you can find on Wikipedia. But because people are so stupid and they're so ready to think that this is some sort of like sinister operation, they go, oh my God, he's already turned state witness. He's like snitching. Oh, he's so stupid for snitching before he even talks to his lawyers. What an idiot. And it's like, or maybe nothing that I'm saying is illegal. Have you

thought about that? But I think we live in a world now where the accusation is more powerful than than the prosecution. Oh, yeah. Prosecutions don't matter anymore. If you think about it in the world we live in, because the swell of what happens in media and online is so big. It used to be the same with the newspaper. Front page, this person has done this.

Many months later, retraction, actually they didn't, or a small little article in the corner. Now, in that world, it was bad enough because it was front page versus page four slight retraction, or just an update on the story. Now it's the whole internet. It's TikTok, it's Instagram, it's Facebook, it's, you know, Google search results, web pages, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And with AI. Massive. And it just gets like, yeah, it just gets amplified and blown up and amplified and blown up. By the time it's verified. It's finished, really. And there's also a lot of like biases that people have where they constantly are seeking out confirmation bias. Yeah.

And they want to confirm their priors no matter what. So like, I'll give you one example. One of the most common things that I receive from people is criticisms that I receive from people is like, oh, you're a socialist, but you're wealthy. Right. And it's true.

I am very successful. I'm very fortunate, right? But it's not at odds with my worldview in any way, shape, or form. It's at odds with how you perceive my worldview, right? I mean, it was Deng Xiaoping who said socialism isn't a, Is it about poverty to be richest to be glorious? It's misattributed to him, but he never corrected the record. He said something similar to that.

But at the end of the day, like, I want everyone to have autonomy. I want everyone to be able to live comfortable lives. Like, that's what I'm advancing. That's what I'm advocating for. That's my perfect society. It's not about everyone being, like, equally poor or starving. You made that up. I never said that that's what I wanted.

Who would want that? Right? And yet, because of this, like, a pre-established notion that socialism is supposed to be a poverty cult, they constantly advance this narrative. And in order to make this narrative stick, they'll be like, oh, he's a nepotism recipient, which is true. I am a nepotism recipient. I worked for my uncle's

YouTube show. Not exactly CNN, right? It was a 26 person YouTube show. Damn, burn, uncle. I mean, but it's true. I was a 26th, I was a 26th employee on a... Uncle's like, come on. Come on. Come on. I didn't deserve that. But it was a 26th employee on a YouTube show, right? It called the Young Turks. It definitely

helped, and I always will recognize. that. But then they'll expand on it and they'll be like, well, this father is really wealthy. It's not true. I take care of my parents and I'm very fortunate to be able to do that. It's my duty and I love that and I love them. But because there's no evidence of this, the idea that like my father is just like multi-billionaire, which they claim, they've just generated evidence through AI articles. So now when you look at the SEO, if you're stupid enough not to check or cross-reference this stuff, there's articles out there from like Hindustan times. It's like Hassan Piker's father is a billionaire.

That's a credible source. And it's really funny. It's on the Hindustan Times. Hey man, I've read everything on the Hindustan Times. Yeah. But it's really interesting because it's like if my father was a billionaire, he would be the third wealthiest person in Turkey.

Like that would be on a list. Like you would know about it. It would be publicly available information. It's so ridiculous. But yet they still advance it because they're so desperate to to confirm their priors and to justify their worldview because they never want to think about the message. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. Did you read the interview? I think it was in the New Yorker. The CEO of Floodify. So if you haven't. Oh, I know what you're talking about.

Yeah. The CEO of Flodify gave a really amazing interview about what he does. And Flutify is basically a clipping service online where they will make anything seem more popular than it is. Yeah. Right? But the way they do it is not using traditional advertising. So you have an album that you want to release

but you're an artist who only has like 50,000 fans. You go to a company like Flodify. They're one of the companies that do this. You pay them a certain amount of money and that money will determine like how much reach you're going to get. And then they have a number. network, and I mean like an insane network that blows it up across quote-unquote real people

having real opinions about your music. And you can seem bigger than you are as an artist, which then sort of catches its own fire, because that's how fame works and that's how news works and that's how. And you, now on that level, you're like, clavicular. This is, this is how clavicular became famous. Yeah. So you think, now you think, oh, I mean, who cares at music, you want to, this is where it gets sinister, right? And we really have to worry about this in society. It is for politics too. For everything.

No way. A South African influencer put this up recently on their page. She has a full-time job, but she also does like makeup and, you know, clothing. But just like really for fun. And then she put out this thing just telling her fan, she's like, hey, I don't know if this has happened to anyone else, but this is a weird thing that I'm experiencing. Someone's been sending me emails over like the last. year-ish where they're offering me money just to talk shit about South Africa.

They'll pay me up front. I never got that. They ask for nothing in return. I'm doing this for free. Yeah. They pay me up front. They ask for nothing in return. No way.

And they don't give you a script. Yeah. Be organic. All they want is for you. And when you put these pieces together, you look at the Flutify guy. I'm not saying he does that. But he did say, he did say in the article that Eric Adams's team, wanted to pay him.

And he doesn't say whether they did or didn't do it. But he says what they wanted him to do was create a campaign of New Yorkers complaining about Mamdani and all the things that are going horribly and what could go. No, no, really. And he was like, we need a groundswell campaign.

Eric Adams' team wanted this. And when you realize that, you go, guys, we're on the precipice of something that I don't think society is ready for. Because it's one thing if we go like, oh, Hassan took money from Cuba, but it's a lie and etc. it's a different thing if we think we're living in a world

where the people around us are having an experience that they're not. We live in a world where we think our neighbors have pitchforks ready, but they don't. We live in the world where we go like, oh man, everyone around me is scared. There's crime in New York, but everyone actually doesn't feel that way. But that is happening right now.

But that's what I mean. But I'm saying as that compounds, it goes beyond just politics and business. It goes to like the erosion of society, which then, as you know, because you've studied it leads to the ultimate forms of fascism. Because if everyone is scared of everything

and nobody trusts anyone, we then look to one strong man who will protect us all and create the calm that we need. And voter apathy is a... Yeah, why would you vote? Because it's all ringed anyway. So you don't want to vote.

You don't want to participate. You don't want to do things. It's... And you want to punish people. You want to punish people that you've been taught are responsible for the pain that you're experiencing.

And that's why I say it's important to also identify the systems of oppression rather than to let it dangle as though there is nothing wrong at all or even sometimes identify certain things that are wrong, but never talk about who's responsible for it because that leaves an opportunity for the Republicans to go back and re-center that anger and refocus that frustration at vulnerable populations, transgender people, immigrants. some of the people that have no defense in American society at all, some of the people that are just contributing to the American working class in very meaningful ways in our productive output and not even getting anything in return for it. And yet we have designed society in a way where we're like, that's who's responsible for all of the angst, for all the suffering that you're going through. And it's certainly not the billionaires, it's certainly not the mega corporations. And when both parties are designed in a way where they defend corporate interests, the amount of defense that you can, the amount of countering that you can do, the amount of counter messaging

you can do against the right-wing reactionary thought is going to be very limited. And that's what, that's what I think is a big problem with the Democratic Party's platform in general, where they can't just say it's corporations of the wealthy that's making the system the way it is dumbass. What are you talking about? You think a random trans person is responsible for you not getting health care? Are you fucking stupid? You're going to get health care. We're going to give you health care. That's my advocacy. I'm like, we're going to give you health care. You need health care. We're going to build a house for you. You're a house. You're racist. Okay, you can't be racist any longer. We're not going to deny you health care or a roof over your head because you're racist, but you got to vote for the not racist

party who will give you those things. Some people will look at that and go, no, I'm so racist. I don't want a roof over my head. But not many people are going to make that bargain. I don't think that'll happen. I don't think that will happen. We saw that with, I mean, not that we were there, but who is it? chairman of Fred Hampton, right? Black Panther Party, where he went, let's go to these white people who are racist and they were like fully racist. And he said, you're poor. We are poor. Ask yourself a question. If we are the N words that you call us and we're against you, why are we also poor? Shouldn't we have the money? And why are you poor? So if we're poor and you're poor, somebody is tricking both of us. So he's like, I'm going to work together. We're going to get you food. We're

going to try and eat food as well. And then let's figure this thing out. Yeah. And then they killed him. He was dead. Yeah. They fucking murdered him in his sleep. Yeah. Because it is, it is a, the upending of that thing. There's so much money in it, man. And and this is, this is, this is, this is again. A Marxist Leninist, by the way. This is where it's important to throw an addendum in, by the way. They make it seem like you're saying no one should earn money. No one should do well. No, should prosper. No one should prosper. You're like, no, no, no, no.

No. What we're saying is in a system where money is like water, the water should flow, right? And in the same way, countries that share major rivers have to have an agreement that the water cannot be stopped by one, any, like any one country. Yes, yeah. They have to have agreements on that. You know that, right? Because one country who's at like the top of a river can just block the water and then all the other countries, that's literally an act of war. They go, no, you can only block this much for your dams

and you can block this and then the next country can block this much. The same understanding should be had in my opinion of money because we forget that we create systems now that sort of have crippled what money was supposed to do. It was an exchange of time and debt. Yeah, to trade. But if somebody can create like a dam a dam and they've got robots that earn the money

and then machines that make the money and then robots that, and the money keeps going here, and then they earn interest on the money, and then they get loans on the money, but then they don't pay taxes on that money, but then we pay the taxes on the money, because all of us sitting everywhere here, we pay the taxes on it.

Then you go like, what are we building? What are we, you know what I mean? Like, where are we ending up? We're building wealth for the upper class, for the capital owning class in American society and in the Western society generally. And people don't understand how small that number is. Oh, yeah.

But that's what I want. I want systemic change. And I've never been an advocate for adventurism. That's not a Marxist tradition at all. all as a matter of fact many theorists have uh regularly criticized adventurism which many americans don't even know what it is but that's like luigi mangioni is as adventurism like a person that decide allegedly thank you you you're right a person that decide to take matters in their own hands right right the the propaganda of the deed is what anarchists believe uh i don't i i want to be

organized and i want to change society with uh diligent and and disciplined organized Last thing I'll ask you because I, it's interesting that we've had two guests sitting at this table who've shared a different opinion on it. And I think I know which way you're going to lean, but who are the two guests? Pete Buttigieg and Bernie Sanders. Oh, God. I asked Bernie Sanders. So I asked Pete Buttigiegzschez, I was talking about like government. And I guess him and I had a bit of a disagreement.

I was saying, and I do believe this, I said, people have been made to believe that government is inept. but that ineptitude was manufactured so that it could be privatized right and we've seen this in South Africa 100% percent in the UK we see this in many countries Wait did he disagree with that no he was like yeah I guess to a certain degree

and then I was like the government is supposed to do the thing people forget the reason we made a government it's a brilliant idea is because we could not all individually go work on the roads so we said hey let's all put our money together for the roads government is supposed to do things and then he was like ah no but I think there's many

things that government is not that good at doing, then I was like, name one thing. What did he say? Yeah, he said a few, and I just agreed, honestly. I was like, I don't think the government's bad at that. I think the government can run a great airline. I think the government can run a great railway service. They do. I think the government can run a great healthcare service.

I think the government can run great education. You know why I say this? Because it did at some point. Yeah. And it still does. People forget that all... And it still does. In most other places, we just don't think about it.

You know how many people who fight against public education now were publicly educated. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to say public education doesn't work. But the smarts that they're using to argue against us come from public education. They're the people who say, oh, no, the government. Yeah, but the house that your parents bought came from a fund that the government made possible for you. The school that you went to was made possible by the government.

So this was my, I am vehemently opposed to that argument because I think it's a trick. I think the trick is you first make a government inept. Yeah. So that people believe it. cannot do anything. Then you make that government sell off its parts to private, you know, to private companies and billionaires. You're describing neoliberalism that took shape in America under Ronald Reagan and also Margaret Thatcher. And then when they have all of it, they then now decide how the thing works. They charge you as much as they want for electricity. And the tailwags

the dog. What are you going to do? Who can live without electricity? The price has to go up. What are we supposed to do? The tailwags the dog. So that was that was that side of it. There's inelastic demand for health care. That's why it has to be. It has to, to be run by the government in some way, shape, or form. It has to be controlled by the government at the very least, if it's not entirely funded and facilitated by the government, like the nationalized health care system in the UK. And at which point, you see this in the UK right now. They try to cripple the funding to the NHS over and over again. They implement austerity, so it's worse off overall. And then people are silly enough to advocate for a privatized

version of that. And that's what the reform party is doing right now. The reform party wants to implement austerity on NHS. They won't say it out loud. And they want to privatize it. But why do people vote for the reform party? They vote for the reform party because they think that immigrants are responsible for all of the issues that they're experiencing in the UK. But it's easy. You know why it's easy to do that, though? I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who experiences that and I'll tell you why. I see this in South Africa. I've seen it in the UK. I've seen it in the UK. you know, places I've traveled to and places I've lived in. You're like, immigrants are bad.

No, people, you know what? No, no, no. People forget this, right? People forget that your ability to see or not see an immigrant changes dramatically with your standard of living and how things are going. I think people really take that for granted. When you're doing well, when your economy is doing well, when things around you are doing well, you'll be shocked at how you don't notice immigrants. They're sort of silently existing in your world because things are going well because you don't see them. You don't notice the guy at the corner shop has an accent in that way when you've got enough money and the prices are affordable and your wages have kept up. You don't notice the immigrant in the hospital bed next to you when you're also getting care.

You don't notice, you don't notice, but a system that is failing, its people is inevitably going to have its people notice the people who are not quote unquote its people because they're like, wait what is, I don't understand. You're saying we don't even have enough for us. Then why do we have enough for them? And I think of it genuinely through like the most personal lens.

When we had food in my house and my mom like, my mom was always always like please go give those street kids this food. Give that homeless guy this. She did that a whole life. She still does that. Right. I remember in my life when we were doing

well in the house. Like when we had a full fridge, I never noticed it. I would run over giddy to that guy and I'd give him bread and stew and some money. I didn't notice it. It's when my mom opened her purse when it was empty, took out her last 10-rand notes and said, go give it to that guy. And I was like, this woman has lost her goddamn mind. Genuinely. Yeah. I mean, I still think she's amazing for like doing that. But I won't like to you as a kid. I was like, nah, lady. I was like, that guy there, he should not be getting our money in any way, shape, but we have nothing. Yeah.

And then she was like, no, no, you think we have nothing. We don't have nothing yet. He has nothing. We're just doing badly right now. But the feeling I had towards that person, I can directly correlate to the purses, you know, the purse situation in my house. And so I go, it is inevitable that these people will,

I don't even think they're silly, to be honest. I think they're human. I'll be honest with you. I don't see how you could not hate immigrants when someone is crippling a system around. But it's, I think you described it very well. Depending on which side of the spectrum socially you are, you describe an immigrant differently.

If you're doing well, you have a foreign friend. If you are not doing too good and it feels like a system is failing and benefiting them, then you see foreigners. Completely. Right? Yeah. Completely.

But here's, I mean, there's also like wealthy racists out there who are, I think, advancing this propaganda and specifically directing the attention back to immigrants, either because naturally people start being more tribalistic in times of economic struggle, or because they're being propagandized. They don't want to look at them. Yeah, exactly, because no one wants the attention

to be directed at them. So they go, oh, it's the woke feminism, or it's the transgender or it's the immigrants that are responsible for it. It's black people that are responsible for it in America during, you know, reconstruction. Because any kind of solidarity that focuses on people's class interests remind people that 99% of the public is a part of one class and only 1% of the public is a part of another class. And most people are just working for that 1%.

The overwhelming majority are. And that's a terrifying prospect for the capitalist because, as I like to say at these rallies, I go, to you know they got the money but we got the people and and that is something that they want to squash before it becomes a big problem and uh that's how i uh found myself the recipient of allegedly a subpoena that i haven't received yet that fox news says i have and now there's like this additional cycle of misinformation coming out where they're like he's terrified he's actually shook like the new york post and fox news is writing articles about how i'm like terrified How much attention do you pay to that stuff, by the way?

I mean, I have to pay attention to it. It's mainstream media, especially if there's no opposition from the liberal side. Associated Press is not writing about the situation. So no one's correcting it is what you're saying. If no one is correcting it, the only thing that's coming out is New York Post, Fox News, and whatnot. And I think that's a very strange situation to be in because then most people are looking at that and the conversation is being dominated by this negative framing. The other thing was what Bernie Sanders said.

asked him, I said, do you think, I'm paraphrasing it, and, you know, because I don't want to misstate what he said, but I basically asked him if the Democratic Party was one party. And he was, he was like, his answer was essentially no. Yeah. He was like, the thing that I'm doing is not, I can't do Bernie. I can't do Bernie. I can't do Bernie well. I'll try. I'll try. I wish I will keep practicing. I'll try. I'll try. He doesn't talk to Bernie. I'll try. He only talks to Donald Trump. That's why he's so good. No, that's how he said. He said, no, no. That's how he said. He was like, no. No. No. Trevor, and I'll tell you why. No. No. No. Trevor. And I'll tell you why. He's not bad. But he's like, he's got a very specific thing. No. And I'll tell you why. Let me tell you why. Right. No. But he was like, no. From your position, I assume you'd have the same point of view. But I wonder what you think the remedy to that is, right? Because the Democratic Party for a long time, America was it was a coalition of people and it feels like that coalition is slowly coming unraveled

yeah all right so what do you see as a remedy if there is a remedy there's different schools of thought on this um a lot of people on the on the socialist side i want yours recognize yeah i'm going to give you mine as well a lot of people on the socialist side believe that entryism is a failure and it's understandable to think that because the democratic party is a bourgeois liberal uh capitalist party they will represent the interests of corporations that's what they're designed to do um and that's why their output is you know reflected that reality over and over again where if you're wondering why they're not doing certain things it's like well it's because they're not supposed to be doing it they're supposed to be defending corporations right um there's certain uh groups like the democratic

socials of america that have different opinion differing opinions on this some people believe that they can just like enter the democratic party and do entryism and run socialist until the party is a democratic Socialists of America Party, right? Sort of what the Tea Party did with the Republican Party. Yes, but the Tea Party didn't like entirely take it over until Donald Trump took over and then made it the MAGA party, right? But again, directionally, Trump and the rest of the Republicans are actually aligned, right? Trump might be more aggressive on, you know, overt white supremacy and maybe even a little bit more reluctant to destroy social security, for example, as opposed to the average Republican.

but like directionally they're on the side of deregulation and tax breaks okay right whereas what we're talking about here the dsa is directionally on the diametrical opposite side of the political spectrum in comparison to the liberal capitalist democratic party and they recognize that right so there's a real friction there that doesn't exist with the white supremacist and the rest of the republican party they actually lean heavily into that that's why republicans can lean into their base because Whereas Democrats, yeah, whereas Democrats run away from their base, right? They have like disdain for their base. They're like, oh, why do you want us to do these things?

Don't you understand? Change is impossible. So entryism is difficult. My opinion on this is I'm a harm reduction voter. I'm a harm reduction believer, I guess, to a certain degree. I recognize that class consciousness is the number one problem in this country. We do not have class consciousness and we do not have political education. And without class consciousness and political education,

You can't have organizing on the basis of class. So in order to foment class consciousness and to engage in agitative propaganda as, you know, as is the Marxist tradition, I believe that elections are one of the most viable routes to reach the masses. Okay. Because I think a lot of people, no matter how radical they present themselves as, or no matter how critical they are of Bernie Sanders, a lot of people self-identified as socialists in that insurgent campaign in 2016, when Bernie ran against Hillary Rodham Clinton. Clinton, that juxtaposition of a left populist force, an anti-establishment force who was unbowed and said that they were a socialist and weren't afraid of the moniker, going up against an establishment, like, an establishment figurehead like Hillary or Adam Clinton made a lot of people self-identify a socialist. It made a lot of people go, wait a minute, I agree with that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? I agree with that guy. I didn't know that this designation existed. or I was so negatively propagandized against what I thought socialism was, but it turns out

it's this old cramudgeon, right, and who is fighting for me, who has been fighting for me for 800 years at this point. So that's why I believe that, and I've seen this in the data as well, like whenever you've got an AOC style figure or Zora Mamdani, the DSA rises, the DSA's ranks explode, right? There's so many new paid members, or paying members, sorry, that joined the organization. And the DSA is very good at instigating class consciousness and also doing political education. It's a massive institution with many different caucuses and they're constantly fighting one another. You go to the national conference and you're like, I like them all. I have no, you know, I don't have, it's like picking, it's like picking favorite children. You

can't do it, right? But they're constantly warring. There's a democratic process. It's complex. It's very diverse. But you have every different tendency from liberals, social Democrats, all the way to Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, third-worldness, people who do not participate in democracy at all because they think it's ridiculous and counter-revolutionary. You have all of that, right? And that is political education and that is an absolute necessity to make the changes in this country. And I see electoralism as a route to foment class consciousness through proving that alternative modes of governance are viable. And that's why I look to people like Zoran as movement leaders in that regard because every

day that he's a good mayor of New York is a day where we are able to tackle this stigma associated with socialism. every day that he's a handsome charismatic fellow that gets to improve people's lives is a day where more New Yorkers go, you know what, maybe I'm a socialist after all. I'm not, I understand that, you know, you have to organize with the masses that you have, not the masses that you believe should exist. And many people in the United States of America are self-identifying as liberals. That's mass politics. That's what the social base is, that's where the social base is at. They self-identify liberals because they don't really understand what that means. If you were to pick apart their

worldview and offer them a little bit of political education, you might find that they're actually not liberals at all. Maybe they're socialist. Maybe they're Marxist. Maybe they're, you know, they have a different ideological tendency than liberalism, which is basically just a monoculture that we've taken for granted. So at a time when liberalism is failing, and the Democratic Party, as the liberal Democratic Party is failing to keep up with the reactionary forces on the Republican side, I believe that it's important to try to push for as many radical candidates as possible and change the makeup, the political makeup of this unbelievably weak party that is not a real political party in the sense that they exist in Europe and in parliamentary systems.

There's no paid membership structure, like paying membership structure. But a party that simply is a holdover for a litany of different corporate interests and maybe some advocacy groups on the side. if you want to throw them a bone every now and then because you need door knockers. That's a weak party. That's a party that you can seize. That's a party that you can take advantage of. Because at the end of the day, I have no loyalty to the brand that is the Democratic party.

Right. And I don't think anyone should have any loyalty to any party. I think you should have, you should see politicians as an agent for change because that's what they are. Are they making those changes for their corporate benefactors? Or are they making those changes? changes for you? Are they promising to you that they are going to change your lives for the better? Or are they telling you better things are not possible, which is what a lot of Democrats do, unfortunately. So, you know, even if I know a politician personally, Zauron is a great example

of this. AOC is another example of this. If they do things that I don't like, I'll say it. I'll be like, no, this was wrong. I disagree with you on this. And I will hold them to account because at the end of the day, they're public servants. They work for us, for all of us, right? There shouldn't be any loyalty to a party or a brand, especially if that party hasn't done enough to deserve your loyalty. You can have an ideological commitment to a movement, I certainly do, and I have my moral convictions, and I demand that the elected representatives that I push for also have similar shared moral convictions. But outside of that,

I don't really care how we get there. Another Deng Xiaoping quote I'll use. I don't know why I keep using Deng Xiaoping quotes on this conversation. Also because it's Tuesday. Yeah. You know what they say about Tuesday

and Deng Xiaoping? What? Nothing. Carry on. I was very excited. I know. He said when market reforms were taking place in China,

he said famously a black cat or a white cat, it doesn't matter as long as it catches the rat. And that's the way I see it as well, where it's like, I don't really care about what these brands are or what, like, how people identify themselves. People focus too much on the labels and not on the outcome. Yeah, I care about, changes. I care about necessary changes and getting those necessary changes across. Damn. Well, this was great, man. This was really, really dope. Good luck with your subpoena if it's there when you get home. Oh, speaking of which. Can you just open that? That would be so amazing. If we

served him right now. He's so amazing. If we serve you the serpina, it's like, we have been asked to deliver this to you. This is from the treasury. Now that we've confirmed, do you are? Yo, Hassan, thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, man. This was great. This was great. This was a fun conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah.

Sanaziamen and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?