What Now? with Trevor Noah - How Shame Became the New Sex Ed with Carter Sherman

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Everyone’s talking about Gen Z’s sex recession - but maybe it’s not about sex at all. Trevor and Eugene chat with Carter Sherman, journalist and author of The Second Coming,  to discuss how maybe Gen Z’s sexual appetites are being influenced by fear, politics, power, and the way intimacy has been hijacked by the internet. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Gen Z is having a sex recession. 20 and 30-somethings are having less sex than previous generations and are starting their sex lives later. Gen Z have been done dirty when it comes to dating. And people's views of dating is more polarizing than ever. For many teenagers, greater use of social media means a far greater sense of isolation. The average 14-year-old boy today has seen more hardcore porn than all of the American fighting forces in the Second World War. Sex said here in the United States is nonsense and confusion because it teaches you, how to be safe but not the pleasures

and porn teaches you the pleasures sort of but not how to be safe Carter Sherman, reproductive health and justice reporter at The Guardian who interviewed over 100 young people for her new book. It's called The Second Coming. This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Eat well for less. I'm truly so excited to have this conversation, you don't understand. Well, thank you for having me on. Yeah, because, like, sometimes you're reading a book and then it's just like, facts, facts, facts, data, facts, facts, facts. And then here it's like, facts, data, sex. Yeah?

Good times. Why don't you lead with that? I mean, yeah, coffee, coffee, marriage, coffee, hospitals, hospitals, research. You know, I like to surprise. Okay. But yeah, that's the secret thing that I also write about in addition to health care is sex, which is more fun, that's for sure. Sherman, your husband's name? What?

He asked if it Sherman was my husband's name, and I was instantly like, no. Just no way. That's funny. His name is, his last name is Conway Pearson. And so I would like to combine our names and be. like Conman and Sherpway and Sherman and be Conman and so I'm a journalist I could be journalist con man he's a doctor he could be Dr. Conman I think it would be that's the only way I would change my name is those those are some of that's I mean like those are some of those things in life

that are terrible in the thought yes but man what a beautiful idea yes that would be a great one thank you Dr. Conman especially if anything went wrong you've you've like immunized yourself yeah what went wrong well when Dr. Conman I'm sorry you trusted Dr. Conman totally your fault It just becomes that in everything. Dr. Conman. His malpractice insurance might be really hard to come by. I loved your reaction when I asked if that's his surname or yours and you were like, mine.

So you haven't changed your surname or you only use your surname when you're doing business? I haven't changed my surname. At all? No. South Africa just made it. Did you see the law just changed? Yes. Now, I was shocked that you can only do it now.

Now husbands can take the woman's name. But I was like, now? You know what you learned about it before? Yeah. But I was just like, wait, I don't know that there was a law against this. Yeah. Would you? Would I what?

Take my wife's name? Yes. Depends on if her name made my name cooler or more interesting. Like it's like, let's say her last name was like Weber. I wouldn't want to be like Trevor Weber. I don't know. I like that. No, I'm not doing that.

I actually do as well. Trevor Weber? Yeah. No. Now it's like I'm roasting myself everywhere I go. People are roasting me. Oh, Trevor Weber? No, I'm not.

I don't want that. Okay. Maybe. So it would have to be like Lightning? Trevor Lightning? Yeah. No.

Okay. I like that this was your contribution. Trevor Lightning. Are you surprised by the person is a con man? What's like a cool last name? No, but what I mean is like you've got to take me

like Eugene Causa. It has a music to it. Because you're used to it. No, no, no. It does. There's certain names that don't have a music. And to those people, I apologize because your parents messed you up.

Carter Sherman. That has music to it. Carter Sherman. That is best-selling author written all over it. Somebody did tell me it would be a good name for like an airport paperback thriller writer. It would indeed. The latest Carter Sherman.

The latest Carter Sherman. It has that five. Even like a rapper would say Carter Sherman, never heard him. You know what I mean? It's got like a cool, like there's a, there we go. What? You see what I'm talking about?

This is what I'm talking about. I'm going to leave here with the theme song. That's what's going to happen here. This is, you see what I mean? These are good names. Eugene Kosa has the flow. Trevor Noah. Trevor Weber.

No, Trevor Weber. it just sounds like you stumbled after saying it. I wouldn't do that. But that's for your next book. Okay. The best names. Just the list of the best names. Who should take whose last name is your next book?

Yeah. I mean, I would advocate. I think it is cool when men take their wife's last name. Why? I also think it's cool. Because it's unusual. Do you want to be the unusual guy at the bar? I mean, not no.

It depends. Is it like, oh, I think this guy is. Mrs. Conman. Think about this carefully. I think that would be so fun to sign everything as like Carter Conman. Yeah. You know what? It could be your natural evolution because like I look at all this stuff, not all the stuff that you've written.

But I was going back into some of your older writings. And one of the first pieces I could find was the one that you did for Ms. Magazine, right? That's that's what was. I think you're a little intern. Yes. And it was a piece about why aren't. condoms designed for female pleasure. You know what I mean?

I have no memory of writing this. What's the answer? No, no, the question, you were asking the question. You were saying, like, why aren't they? Yeah. Why are they not considering? Why is it like, how does it fit on the penis? Does it work well on the man's penis?

Does he like it? Does it work well for him? Does it feel this, does it feel this? Yeah. But you were like, but none of this work and none of this research is around, but how does it feel for her? And as I was reading that and then reading through your book, I went, oh, wow, this is, it's cool to see somebody's trajectory.

and watch them, you know, like, we always meet people as they are now, but it's cool to meet them as they sort of were at a different time. And it made me wonder, like, what was the first thing that got you obsessed with the topic of sex, how we view sex, why sex is important to a society, a culture? Like, what was that first lightning bolts in your world? Oh, I mean, I think it was one of the stories I used to open up the book, which is that I was pathologically obsessed with my own virginity. I was so upset to be a 17-year-old virgin.

I thought I was the last 17-year-old virgin on the planet. I mean, it felt like it. Like, I fully, my, one of the last girls in my friend group, to lose her virginity, texted me during class that she had lost it because she cut school. Wow. Yeah, had sex with this guy on her laundry room floor. I mean, it was great, it sounded like.

And I kept it together for the rest of school. And then I got into the car when my mom picked me up from school. And I just burst out sobbing because I was so upset over the fact that I had the last one standing. I know. Wait, did you tell your mom why you were crying? Oh, yeah, of course. Wait, of course? Yeah.

Oh, there's no of course in my, wait. So your mom's like, why are you crying? And you're like, well, because I can't get some. Yes. And she was like, you know, it's fine. Like everybody loses it at different times. It's not a big deal. And I was like, these are the families I watched in movies and thought never existed.

But also we're talking about how people were born to be villain. I mean, their villain origin story. They're the opposite. Like Carter Sherman, the last hymen. That's my next book. Can you imagine, Eugene? Let's just play. I'm going to, I'm going to give you, I'm going to take you through time.

Okay. We're going to transport you to a black family, a South African family. To be exact. To be exact. Okay. Okay. I will play Carter Sherman. Trevor Noah as Carter Sherman.

All right. And then I am, I am going to, and then you will be, Mama Sherman. You will be my mom and dad. You can be both at the same. Oh, Parent Sherman. I want Parent Sherman. Okay, okay.

But in South Africa. Who wasn't the car with you that day? My mother. Just my mom. Yeah, so just the two of us, all right? And action. And then? You know what?

If you don't stop behaving like a white girl in this car, I'm going to drop you off now. Sorry, Mom. Sorry, Mama. So it was just such a hard day, Mom. It was such a hard day. What happened? My friend texted me, Mom, and I found out that I'm the last virgin. I'm the only person who's not getting sex, Mom.

What? You had a phone at school. Oh, man. Okay, wait, so your mom... She should have had that. Okay, wait. So your mom goes, don't worry, it'll happen in time. Yes.

And then I was like, well, did you, were you a virgin when you were my age? And she was like, oh, no, no, no. Your mom is black. What's your thing? Oh, this is amazing. Oh, wow. This is amazing. This is amazing.

Yeah. She, of course, totally forgot this story. Because you know how parents just fully forget the experiences that shape you forever? She forgot this. And then I was telling. her the story again, you know, when I was writing the book. And she was like, I can't believe I said that. I really should have lied.

And I was like, okay, I get it. Like, you were not a virgin at 17. Cool. Thank you for that. She really wanted to impress upon me. Yeah. I feel like that story. Oh, man, sorry.

It's the perfect jumping off point into what, you know what? I don't know if there's right or wrong in it. I think rightly and wrongly, our obsession with sex. Because on the one, there's one part of my brain that goes, why are we so obsessed with sex? There's another part of me that always goes, like, why aren't we more obsessed with sex in that it is the thing that means most of us are here? Yeah. It is the reason the human race will or will not continue in many ways. But what I love about your book is, and we'll go through like, you know, all the different topics that you get into and every single one of the chapters.

I think you do it amazingly is like it's not necessarily our obsession with sex that's wrong. it's what elements of sex we're obsessed with that become detrimental to a society. And so, like, let's talk about virginity. You know, when you look at virginity throughout the decades, it's amazing how it changes because you're talking about crying because you're the last virgin.

And then you just rewind time or go to a different place and the tears are because people aren't a virgin. Do you know what I mean? Right. I mean, for so long, virginity was something to be prized and in many places of the world is still something to be prized, particularly for women. like it is essential to maintain your virginity

in a lot of places at risk of I mean potentially even death depending on where you are in the world and so it is kind of stunning how quickly that has flipped here in the United States where it is seen as lame to be a virgin past a certain age and I was really struck in writing the book

that the feeling that I had that it was so uncool to be a virgin was shared by so many young people I talked to like all of them felt like having held onto their virginity for as long as they did, even if they lost their virginity early on, like, that was the wrong age to do it. I talked to one young man who, like, as soon as at 14, he started feeling really bad that he at 14, yeah, that he had not yet had sex.

Yeah? Well, but it's interesting because younger people are actually having less sex than previous generations. So these young people are telling themselves, oh, I'm so lame for not having sex, but it doesn't match the reality that, like, most of their peers probably aren't having sex at this point. So do you find that, are people just lying about having sex? Or are they...

I mean... If everyone thinks they're lame for not having sex, but they're having less sex than ever before. I don't know if it's lying so much as we don't really have open conversations about sex. I think the extent to which we talk about sex in public is oftentimes to stigmatize sex. Or when you talk about sex amongst your friends, you're oftentimes like not lying, but maybe embellishing stories or talking about like only the good stuff. Yeah. You're not really discussing the complexity of it or maybe your own feelings about...

how much sex you're having, how much sex you're not having, what your last sexual experience was like. And so I think that we're not really able to have conversations that get into the nuances of sex and the role that it plays in our lives. Because I think that we see sex oftentimes is something that like should be private. And I'm not saying it's not something that can't be deeply personal and something that you should hold for yourself. But I do think that we underestimate the ways of what's going on in public shape our approach to sex and shape our ability to have the kind of sex that we like. Yeah, there's some, there's some, of the book where it feels like it feels like you're forcing us to ask the question who is obsessed

with whose sex and why and what does it what does it mean you know like when i was reading through i was thinking of you know going through the decades and there's always these new moments in media where they'll be like hookup culture is it out of control is there hookup culture what does it mean for your kids you know those news headlines and then you like fast forward a few years and they'll be like there's a virginity recession there's a what and there's like they always have these like these these catchphrases yeah but it always focuses on young people that's something your book really made me realize I hadn't thought of it before but they very seldom are talking about 50 year olds or 40 something years or 60 year olds even it's always focused on a peculiar

thing that is happening in and around young people's sex like why do you think that is when you researched it what did you find why do we love telling young people that they're doing sex wrong yeah I mean I think that in a lot of ways like controlling how young people have sex means you control the future. You can reset the narrative about what an American family should look like, what an American life should look like, how to be good in the United States, depending on how you condition young people to think about sex. I mean, I would also argue that there's probably some element amongst people as we get older and maybe lose more of our sex appeal that we feel like... jealous. Yes. Yeah, like we want to control these young people

who are sort of like, you know, rising up, flourishing, what have you, but I think that there is also a great political utility in telling young people how to live their lives and in particular making them feel certain types of ways about sex and making them afraid of certain kinds of sex. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you've nailed it and I guess that's why you are a great author now. Well, I don't know about great author, but thank you. You don't be, hey, you're Eugene Kosa. You don't forget that.

Thank you, Trevor. Yeah. Thank you so much. I don't care what happens in your life. You never forget that. Yes, she's a great author. And you might be useless at everything, but you're still, Eugene Koso.

Thank you. Your name has a, what did you say? Your name has a rhythm. Yeah, musicality. You don't forget that. Guys, I don't know what to say. I'm touched. I mean, thank you, Eugene.

Thank you for seeing me, guys. We see you. You're welcome. We can all go now. We're done here. Yeah. The intervention's over. What was your question?

My thing is, you're absolutely right. It almost feels like sex, money, religion are the only levers that parents can still use to control their children. And once they've lost one, they'll try to cling on to another because while they're still your depend, you can tell them what car to drive, what, how they must do at school because you are paying. Yeah. And then you can also tell them, yeah, if you become morally corrupt by having sex, all of this

goes away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't necessarily think, at least here that it is parents that are passing on this messaging to young people telling them that certain kinds of sex are bad or that they should be ashamed or afraid of certain kinds of sex. I think it is institutions. Like, in general, most Americans believe that it is okay to teach young people about more than abstinence in sex ed. They do accept that premarital sex is a normal part of life. They would like their young children to know, well, maybe not young children, but they would like their children to be provided with

age-appropriate, medically accurate information about things like condoms and STIs and pregnancy prevention. Yeah. But what we see instead in this country is an extreme support among politicians and institutions for absence-only sex ed. The U.S. government has since 2000 poured more than $2 billion into absence-only sex ed, which in general does not work. Two billion dollars. Two billion dollars. Into convincing people that they should not have sex? Until marriage. Two billion dollars. We're in the wrong business. No?

Who did I get? Did I get Trevor No or Trevor Weber? You just $2 billion. It's, and I mean, and this continues under Democratic administrations. It's not like just Republican presidents are in favor of absence-only sex said. Every year, hundreds of millions of dollars are flowing to absence-only sex-ex-ed. What is their, like to play devil's advocate, what is their argument for? What is their intention before I assume anything? Yeah, I mean, it's true that absence is the only way to totally avoid getting things like STIs or.

getting pregnant. And but I think that that is not only the message that's communicated through absence only sex ed, like oftentimes absence only sex said has been embedded with specific notions around like who what a man should be or what a woman should be or what a family should look like. And so I think for many of the advocates of absence only sex said, this is about creating a kind of American family that looks a lot like the American family of the 1950s, which is to say like two very young people getting married because in the 1950s, the average age of marriage dropped to an unprecedented. I think it was 20 for women and 22

for men. Wow. So it was a man and a woman get married. They have 2.5 kids. Man works. What's the point five? I've always loved that 0.5. But never in black families have I had over 0.5. Never. Maybe it's like always the possibility of more children.

So you just cut your neighbor's child. They have three and you have two. Oh, that's the point five. That's the half. Okay. Got it. Yeah. And I mean, implicit in this is the idea that this family is white because like this was not the reality for black families in the 1950s. This was how white families in the 1950s lived. Yeah, the white families had the 0.5. And so I think that a lot of these absence-only advocates, like they're not just really talking about sex. Yeah. They're talking about a lifestyle.

They're talking about a way to be, a way to be perceived. They're talking about a way that they want the United States to look. Oh, damn. Damn. So when you dig into it, you know, Like, when I came across your work, it was around, there were all these headlines about the sex recession. That's what got me intrigued because I'd be reading the news and then all of a sudden, I'd see a headline, sex recession. I was like, what is this? And you click into it and it was like, Gen Z are not having sex. They're having less sex than ever before the sex is going down. No sex for Gen Z.

What does that mean for your children? And you'd see all these headlines. and you really, in truly one of the most brilliant ways, you break down what people are missing is that it's not a sex recession because kids are like, oh, I'm no sex or I don't want sex or you go into the nuanced ideas in and around sex, intimacy, the responsibility, the bonds that people have.

What do you think people miss when they just go, Gen Z doesn't want to have sex? I think we take the idea of sex as being like good in and of itself. for whatever reason, even though there's so much shaming around sex, it's like treated as a bad thing, a knee-jerk bad thing, that the sex recession is going on. Yeah. And I think we should be asking ourselves, like, to why does it matter if young people

aren't having sex? Because, like, to be honest, I don't really care if young people are having sex or not. Like, what I care about is whether or not they are willing to be vulnerable, whether or not they learn skills, like, how to risk rejection and how to handle rejection and what it means to connect with other people, not just sexually, but platonically and romantically. And so, like, the reason I find all these headlines about the sex recession to be very interesting is because I think we don't actually interrogate what sex is or means or the role that it plays in our lives, which goes back to this earlier question that you were

asking about, like, what are we not talking about when we talk about sex? And I think that that's what we're not really talking about. And I think the way that the sex recession headline happens is it sounds really dramatic and you can't understand why people would avoid having sex. because sex is kind of fun. But I think that it's... I like the way she said, kind of fun. I mean... You're not selling it well, in it.

Kind of fun. Kind of fun. I like it. I've enjoyed it in my time. You know, kind of fun. Sex is kind of fun. I'm against it. That's a great sticker, by the way.

Sex is kind of fun. I mean, it's breaking news right here. I don't know if anyone's heard. We'll be right back after the short break. So when you talk to Gen Z, when you talk to young men, young women, you know, however people identify, like across the board, people are saying that at that age, they generally have a different relationship to sex than maybe the mainstream would think they should have. But how do they express themselves? What do they say their views on sex are or aren't? What is happening from the inside?

I mean, there's definitely no one. Nothing's happening on the inside. No, that's not what I meant, Eugene. That was a great joke, but that's not what I meant. Sorry, yes. I appreciate that. I love a sex plan. I want to be really clear.

I don't know if the headline or the title of the book made that clear. But I mean, I think it depends on who you're talking to. Like people, these young people, I interviewed more than 100 people under 30 for the book. And so, like, every conversation felt really different depending on where these people had come from and when their backgrounds were and, you know, how they identified their sexual orientation or their gender. But I think what was uniform amongst these young people is they really hadn't been asked a lot of the questions that I was asking them. They all, virtually all of them had had sex education that they thought was

incompetent. There was a lot of references to, if you've seen the movie Mean Girls, You know how Coach Carr says, like, if you have sexual, you will die. A lot of people, unprompted, brought up that exact analogy to me and said that that's what their sex ed was like. But then beyond that, a lot of them had never, they didn't have parents like mine. They couldn't talk to them about sex. They didn't have friends that they felt like they could speak openly about sex with.

And so I think a lot of them enjoyed being able to have these in-depth conversations because each of these interviews ran like maybe 90 minutes. Yeah. And I think particularly what I found was interesting. interesting. There was kind of a gender divide that happened, which is that a lot of the young women and also a lot of the queer folks that interviewed, they came to the table with more to say. They had thought about it, even if they hadn't had these conversations before, whereas a lot of the young men I interviewed had not necessarily thought about or even like come to the table

with things to talk about. And I thought that my theory around that is I feel like the young women and the queer people had understood that their sexual desires or their interests maybe created more friction for them because like those desires, those interests were not treated as as being as important as young men's interest, young straight men's interests. Whereas the young men, like they, it sort of took them longer to come to start thinking about some of this stuff because they hadn't really had to put as much thought into it. Yeah, and it's interesting because society tells you what your story. is a lot of the time, you know?

Yeah. So if I think of it from a young man's perspective, when you're a young man, you're sold a story of yourself, you're sold a story that tells you where you should be at a certain time, how you should be viewing sex, what you, and you think of like, there's like the fun version, like Super Bad, a movie like Super Bad, or for me growing up, American Pie, you know what I mean? It's just this, you gotta lose your virginity by prom, man, you gotta lose it by prom, come on, you get I'm saying.

Yeah. But there's this idea and even in those stories, and I don't get me wrong, those are comedians. I'm not saying don't make them. But society is telling you a story as a young man about your relationship with sex and what your relationship with sex means about you and your success in life. And I can only imagine, you know, if you're a woman, you know, if you're queer, if you identify as anything, there's a very different relationship and maybe you have less influence and more room to think about it, but also less support maybe for lack of a better word. It's harder to make it real. Yeah. Or to see it.

out in the real world. There is this concept that I came across while I was reporting the book called Hegemonic masculinity. Hegemonic masculinity. Yeah, which is a sort of weighty word for, I think, something that people understand very easily, which is that there are a lot of very narrow ideas

about what a man should be. Yeah. And particularly when it comes to sex, like men should be big, strong, tall, emotionless cavemen who are good at obtaining sex and always want to have sex. Good at obtaining it? Yes.

And also want it? want it. So, like, there's not a lot of space in those stereotypes for men to have the feelings that they do have about sex. And I feel like we've done a very good job in the United States over the last 50 years of expanding the ways that we think about, like, women's relationship with sex in some ways. And, you know, even if it's harder for those young girls that I was interviewing or the young queer folks I was interviewing, it's harder for them to see this out in the real world, or they have to think about it more, and they have all these ideas and, like, swirling around inside them.

But, like, we haven't even created the space for men to start having those conversations or thinking about those stuff for themselves. And so when I was interviewing these young men, they talked a lot about dealing with those stereotypes and feeling like they had to be a particular kind of way. Yeah, I remember having a conversation about this. It was, I forget where this was, but there was a panel that was being hosted, and there was some really interesting psychologists, talking about it. And then afterwards, there's a little breakoff and everyone's just chatting.

And one of the therapists there, they were family therapists, sex therapist, all of this, they said something that stuck with me for years. They said, we've lived in a world where men have been taught that they only think about sex and sex has no feelings. And we've taught women that sex is only their feelings and it defines them as a human being. And, you know, it's the most valuable, powerful, like, oh, this is your... And so you have this imbalance where men go, stick it in, good times. And then women like, it is my sanctity. And she was saying that, no, no, no, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Men need to be taught that they do have an emotion. They do have a little bit of a fear. They do have a connection. They do have a warmth. They do have a tenderness. You get what I'm saying? And then women can also be taught like, hey, there's a liberation in going like, it is yours to wield as you please.

it is not only your sanctity, it's just yours. So, you know what I mean? In the same way someone can choose to spend their Friday night drunk or reading a book, there's got to be a freedom in saying to people, your sex is your sex, do with it as you please, and don't think that it defines you in like a singular forever. Do you know what I'm saying? I think all of this is, and it makes total sense. I think all of this, much like anything else, is a byproduct of marketing.

I think sex, products don't need to use sex to market anything anymore. For example, cigarette smoking Going Remember those ads We're used to see guys and girls at the beach Having a bonfire Yeah Car ads

This is a famous Mustang one Where there's a woman and the man And the arm over Have you noticed how car ads look now? It's usually one guy driving it Being responsible Or it's like a family Yeah

Yes but it's never Sex- Car ads are wildly gendered I have to say They really are Yeah They'll pop up when I'm watching television I'm like, gosh, this is like, it's like a car for big, strong men or a car for families.

And like, those are the two genders of car. They don't sell the M3 or the whatever fancy super sports car with a man and a woman. The only time you see that is when you're watching those videos of people in Monaco. So now, people have sold, brands have stopped being interested in selling sex to use to sell a product. So I think now when kids that are younger, Gen Zs, look, this is just my opinion, when they look at the kind of women of the people that they idolize, they know they'll never have that woman. When they look at their favorite sport star,

their favorite rapper, and they look at the kind of women that they're with, I don't think they see themselves with that kind of person. So you think that's affected how they see sex because of that? Yes, but that's why kids now, when you ask them, what do you want to be? They say, rich or? Famous.

Yes. Because they know that's the only way to get the kind of girls that they want. Yes, because now the normal is not marketed anymore. Because it's one or the other. It's either a guy, macho, macho, macho guy in a car by himself. Or you have a whole guy with five kids and the person's like, I'm 16. I don't want either of these outcomes.

Yeah, when I have sex, must have come with these ones. I mean, but it's interesting, though, because young people are growing up on an internet that is saturated with sex. Like, they're being exposed to so many more different kinds of sexuality than we ever had growing up. I mean, I'm 31, so I grew up a bit on the internet, but not in the way that young people are now. And so I think that this is also sort of one of the questions that perplexes people with the sex recession is like, how is it possible that young people are running into like every possible kind of sex that they want and probably a few that they don't on the internet? Yeah.

And yet not having IRL sex. And so I think that it's really hard to say what the messaging is that young people are getting around sex right now because the world of the internet is just full of all kinds of different sex. Is that part of the problem though in like- Exactly. Yeah. It is. You know, when we think about sex. Yeah.

And you talk about this in the book. It is pretty crazy. that one of the most important aspects of your life as a human being something that will stick with you until you probably leave this planet is not taught to you in any formal way

like yes you can say the sex ed but you know as you write and as we've seen sex ed has dropped the window that it thinks of sex through so it tells you like the the physical function of sex this is a penis it goes into a vagina Yeah, Baba. We're still from Africa.

And so, no, but I'm saying like when you think of that, what do you think that's also done to, not that it was better per se, but there's a flattening of sex and the education that goes around it. It means that you have to go to the internet. That doesn't equip people with the tools to know what sex encompasses. Right, because all they hear on school is like don't have sexual die. And then they open up their phone or their laptop or whatever, and then they see porn. I mean, three quarters of American teenagers have seen porn by the time they're 18.

And so I think, and what porn purports to do is, like, show you what sexual pleasure looks like and what it feels like to give it and what it feels like to receive it. And so especially if you are coming from a school that teaches you next to nothing about sex, like, of course porn is going to feel like, oh, well, this is sex at. This is what I should use instead. And, like, young people do say, like, oh, I know that. that porn is not accurate, and yet they still rely on it for this. But what does it not tell you?

So if a kid is watching porn thinking, oh, man, this looks like so much fun, what is it not telling them? I mean, it's not telling them a lot. Like, because porn is scripted, right? Yeah. It's basically, what? I know. I'm so sorry.

I'm yet again breaking news here on the podcast. Mr. Pina's over here. That's right. Captain penis I mean it's basically like I use this analogy in the book but it's basically like

if you learn to drive by playing Grand Theft Auto it's just not it has very little to do with what real life sex looks like and What does Carter

real life sex because obviously it's bang bang swing from the chandeliers Wow what part are you watching? Yeah. Please send me that link, Eugene. I got you, fam.

We'll put that in the show notes. Let's get that link to everyone. I want to watch that video. It sounds acrobatic. It really sounds fantastic. And classy. There's a chandelier. Oh, yeah.

This was a really nice set that they probably found out. It's called Cirque de Soleil. Oh, Solay. I see what you did there. Nicely done. Oh, wow. Oh, nicely done. You need to catch up on the sex balance, by the way.

I don't feel like you're really. pulling your weight. So what, so if, if that's advertised clearly through these clips that they watch and these movies that they watch, what is the reality of it? Because we're so quick to say, that's not realistic, but what's the realistic part of it? What is realistic about porn? No, what is realistic about sex that porn is not showing people. Oh, I mean, it's, it's not showing like communication.

It's not showing, I mean, I think the things that make people good at sex are an ability to communicate, having a sense of humor, a willingness to be awkward. Because, like, that's beyond a sex. In addition to being kind of fun is usually fairly inelegant. And, like, none of those things are present in porn because porn is very sleek and scripted. And these are professionals operating on a close track. And that's fine.

I really don't want the message from me or from the book to be that porn is bad. It's just porn has very little to do with the way people and particularly young people fuck around. And so what I found was interesting in the book is I kind of thought that young people on the right would be opposed to porn. I thought that young people on left would have better feelings about it. But what I found inside is that young people almost routinely thought that porn was bad for them. And they felt that it had warped their sexuality. There's this concept in sociology called the deep story, which is basically the story that people feel is true. And that story can have more power than the actual facts. And we see this in politics all the time, right? People vote for the guy

who they just have a good feeling about, even if he doesn't actually align with any of your opinions. And so the deep story among young people is that porn has been very bad for them. And they feel like, in particular, because they can't talk to their parents about sex or their friends and because sex ed has so failed them that they're just stranded in front of all of this pornography and they've just been left to deal with it on their own. In particular, one of the things that really stuck with me is they really felt that porn had normalized rough sex and in particular choking. If you're under 40, you're almost twice as likely to have been choked during sex as someone. If you're under 40, compared to people over 40. And like, if you like choking, that's fine. Just do it safely and

consensually. And the thing is that most people, or many people, I should say, are not asked for consent before they're choked. And choking is, you know, it can be strangulation. It can be actually very dangerous. Right. Yeah. And so it was fascinating to me to talk to these young people and they would, so many of the young women I talked to just would relay spontaneously that they had been choked during sex. Like there was one young woman who told me that, you know, they called it a love squeeze in her high school. And again, it's just one of those things where if you like it, go for it. But it's not a normal part of sex. It's not like an average part of sex. And you do have to have a real conversation about it before you do it.

And that's just not something you see in porn. Yeah. As you're saying this, I realize the paradox of not having a thought out and centralized form of education means that the normal

becomes defined by the abnormal. You know what I mean? You just said choking's not normal and then I went except when it is because everything

that's in sex was not normal at some point. I remember when I was how old was I? I think I was 12. or 13 years old, and I remember seeing, it was like distant aunts and uncles, but they kissed using their tongues. And I remember my mind was like, what just, I'd never seen adults do that. Because at that time in my life, that was not normal. Even in TV shows, people kissed.

It was just like a smooch. We just plucked your lips and you. Camera swirls around them. You can't really get a good view of what's happening. You know what I mean? And then one day, there were tongues and there were more tongues and there more tongues but now if you said to somebody kissing with your tongue is not normal they're like what are you talking about that's that's weird that you're not opening your mouth what's wrong with you so the the paradox then becomes that normal does exist or rather like the overtone window of normal exists but what's really wrong is where is how it's being defined you know it's like if nobody's talking about the thing that's not happening in porn then porn becomes the only teacher

in in essence you know yeah well the thing is there also like they're not even really talking about it either. Oh, yeah, silence. Yeah, it's just like, $2 billion to be quiet. Yes, exactly. And so they're just, they're not even talking about it

and it's going on behind closed doors. And, you know, there's been like, I was reading stories and studies where like women would talk about having a guy without asking uses belt around their neck. Uses what? His belt.

Yes. Oh, geez. Or like a necklace to choke her. And it's like, you know, these are things that can be dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you like it, do it safely,

right. Essentially, again, but we're not really, as the internet has shown us, more and more different kinds of sex and maybe help normalize more and more different kinds of sex. Sex education has receded as a resource that people can find in institutions. I also think there's an ex, like, there's almost an amplification effect that can happen with algorithms and social media. Because you're saying this, and I'm thinking about all the videos young men see where women are mocking them for the type of boring sex they have.

do you know do you know what I mean it's not abnormal to see like young men going oh yeah like like you're still out here like you'll see these videos and I'm not blaming those people you make whatever video you want to make but you'll see some of these videos where they'll be like oh yeah when he still wants to hug you before da-da and you know like it's like a little TikTok and it's and it is funny but I can also imagine being a young man and going oh man I guess I've got to know this stuff because if I don't know it do I know sex and do I want to be mocked and do I want to be teased and do I want to be to rewind to back in my day. But I remember in high school how boys, and obviously I wasn't spending all the time

with the girls, but how boys particularly were mocked if they didn't like seem to know things. And back then it was much less sex based, but it was still, do you know how to do that? Do you know how to finger somebody? And it was like, uh, uh, uh, and it's like, if you don't know, exactly like that, Eugene. See, I taught you well. But it was, this podcast is not sex ed. I just thought to be really clear. You said one billion dollars.

You had us there. Yeah, you had us there. Two billion. Two billion dollars. We're coming for that billion. We're doing our best here. But no, what I, yeah, it's, it's, do you see what I mean the conundrum is? Yeah.

You're in a world where it's, as you, as you so eloquently say, you've got women who are saying, oh, man, this is my experience of the men and what they're doing. And I also go, yeah, there's a world where the men are going. This is my experience. of what I've been told a woman likes, and because I don't meet a woman until I'm having sex with her, I don't know actually what the thing is, and I don't want to get there and then not know what the thing is,

and you don't want to be the fumbling guy, and then what... So, to your point, because the original sin is committed by not having the education, everyone is now bumping, it's the blind leading the blind. Well, it also, I mean, it goes back to what we're talking about with, like, these stereotypes of masculinity, where it's this idea that men have to know everything about sex and should be good at sex and, like,

there's no room for men to ask questions, including of their partner, which is the person they should be directing these questions. at because it's seen as not being cool, including oftentimes by women. It's not like, oh, men are just telling men to be this way. There's a lot of messaging from all kinds of areas, including from women, at men, to tell them to be a particular kind of way when it comes to sex. And I should say, one of the things I wanted to do in the book was also explain, like, porn is not a monolith. Yeah. And a lot of the young women I talk to, they're, the kind of porn that they like wasn't

video porn. It was something like erotica or fan fiction or romance novels, which oftentimes can also feature rough sex. But because they also had this idea of like rough sex from those forms of pornography, like they brought that to the table as well. And so if these young men are watching video porn where rough sex is being normalized and these women are reading porn where rough sex is being normalized, the story that young women were telling me and the story that young men were telling me and the sort of deep story among young people is like that's how rough sex becomes just treated as just another kind of sex and not something you need to have a conversation about. And I should also say, I do want to say, we actually don't really know what porn does to us.

Like, the science on porn is incredibly muddied. It's very hard to find a control group these days of people who haven't seen Internet porn. Oh, geez. Yeah, that's a good point. So, you know, to the extent that this is the story that's being told, I find that valuable and I find that interesting, but we don't actually know from a scientific perspective exactly what is happening to us and our sex lives because of the proliferation of internet porn. I think from just listening to you and the research that you've done,

the people that you've spoken to, I think the whole entire world is missing a big part of what sex education should be. Instead of sex health education, they should focus more on sex mental health education. Their ability to connect or disconnect should the act not go right. Because I feel like a lot of men, I mean, young men who grew up to be men, and how they view relationships, it's usually having to prove yourself.

And then finally, when the act is done, you realize you don't have to be someone that you are not all along because, again, of the romanticization of relationships and the end goal being sex. And on the other end, it's the, now that we've done it, let's talk. Yeah.

Well, advocates of comprehensive sex, I would say, like, healthy relationship education is also a part of sex. Oh, yeah. Healthy relationship. Yeah, like how to talk about your relationships, your feelings, the sex you want to be having, like that could also be a part of sex ed.

And honestly, the first time someone said it to me, I was like, my mind has been blown. But, because I thought I had pretty good sex ed. Like my sex ed, I'm from Seattle, Washington, which is a very liberal place. And it talked about STIs, and it talked about condoms, and it talked about pregnancy prevention.

But it did do its best to pathology sex. Like they had us watch a video of, I think this woman was giving birth to a 16 pound. Yeah. Which is huge. It's large. Damn. What's the point of that video other than,

to make me afraid of sex. Damn. Of sex. Big babies day out. Well. I would love to track down the woman from that video and be like, what's up? Why did you do participate in this? That's one way to learn.

Yeah. But it didn't include, like, they made sex seem scary, even if they were trying to provide me with the resources, much more so than other schools do. And they didn't talk about, like, and here's how to talk to your partner, or here's how to talk to someone you might be interested in about not only sex, but, you know, but, and they didn't talk about, like, and here's how to talk to talk to someone you might be interested in about not only sex, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but about just the relationship. Is part of this because parents are also saying, I don't want my kids learning about sex? Because you see that happening more and more in America. And I mean, but it flares up all over the world at different times.

Parents will say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, you don't know. You don't tell my kid anything. And there's many parents who, I think, very naively think, if they don't hear about it, they won't know it exists. You know, but how much of it is that? How much of it is, it is like we sort of blame the schooling system but parents oftentimes can shake what a schooling system does or doesn't teach.

I think it's a vocal minority of parents who feel the way that you're describing. And I think we especially see that in the United States post-2020 and post-the-pand-pondemic where we've always had a lot of conversations around sex ed and a lot of fighting around sex ed here in the U.S. But post-2020, I would say that those fights have reached a new level where people at school board meetings, for example, have just started spouting off things that have nothing to do with reality. So I describe in the book, there was in 2020 a school board meeting in Texas because Texas was changing its sex ed curriculum for the first time in two decades. And during this school board meeting, parents were coming up and talking about things that,

I mean, I struggled to even understand what they were saying because it didn't make any sense. Like they were talking about, I kept on having to rewind and be like, am I hearing this right? But they were talking about like, you know, teachers grooming students and teachers grooming students, not only for sex, but into being transgender, which is not a thing. And they were talking about, oh, comprehensive sex ed is just a way to, you know, make students gay or trans and consent, even of itself, consent even by itself is a gateway word is what one. Actually, a school board member said where they were saying, like, this is a gateway word so that, like, like, I believe he said that like Planned Parenthood and Nambla, the male, what was it, man boy student, man boy, national man boy, a national American man boy love association. Sorry, that took me a minute. Yeah. To like, consent is a gateway word so that those organizations, Planned Parenthood, Nambla, et cetera, can sink their hooks into these young people. And I'm paraphrasing what he said, but it was a very staggering thing to hear.

Right. And obviously, it doesn't have. anything to do with reality. And so it got to the point where it's like, oh, we can't even necessarily talk about consent in schools because that is a politicized word at this point. The tough thing is it doesn't have to do, you know, to go back to what you're saying about like

a slither of porn, a slither of people. I truly feel bad for those parents because I think they sort of care the most. Do you know what I mean? Think of what you must feel like as a parent. You're watching the news, you see a story about a teacher who had sex with one of their students, man or woman. You see another story where teachers had sex with their students. You see a story where this child was kidnapped

or this child was this. You see a story of grooming. You see people come out and say they were groomed from a young age. It's so hard to say to that person, and I've been guilty of this, don't get me wrong, because I would dismissively go like, that's not a thing. But then I'm like, man, but how do you get through to people or how do you help them balance out the weighting of risk? Because they're saying, I'm trying to protect my child at all costs. And then you want to go, yes, but what cost is too great? At what point are you not protecting the child? You know? Because it is a tough one because there are teachers who've molested kids. There are kids who, you know what I mean? I mean, the world is a scary place. And schools are a scary place.

Yeah, you see, it's funny. I don't think the world is a scary place in that way, no, genuinely. And I don't mean this facetiously. I just think the world feels scarier when you know everything that is happening in it at the same time. But most of the world is not a scary place. You know, like people are like, ah, I'm scared of flying. But they're scared of flying because of the plane crashes we focused on. Yeah.

But there's no new story about planes that land. They just aren't, you know? And we do this with everything. And I'm not saying we shouldn't focus on those things. But the human brain is very difficult at understanding how. how much or how little to focus on something, depending on how much it's been told to us. Accurately gauging risk.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know. Well, I think also during the pandemic in particular, you know, people were trapped at home on their computers, looking constantly at bad news and conspiracy theories proliferated. I thought you said bad nudes. Oh, well, I was like, I've had those in the pandemic trapped with bad nudes. I was like, hey, man, I said.

There's nothing worth than lockdown with bad news. Lockdown on itself. And I'm like, I know those stores are run out of razors now. You, actually, let's talk about social media because you talk about what you call it the fuckability trap, you know? A. A. Carter.

I'm sorry. Yes. Yeah, Genela. Oh, okay. I didn't realize that was approval. Thank you. That. What is it again?

The fuckability trap. I mean, I have to credit. Fuckability is not my concept. It's the concept of this philosopher whose name I'm definitely going to mispronounce. It's Amia Savacian. I'm so sorry. Sorry, so sorry, if I'm mispronouncing that.

But she is a philosopher who talks about basically fuckability is sexual desire as constructed by our politics. Wow. Which is the idea that, like, you know, how can we differentiate the ways that, like, racism and sexism and all other kinds of isms affect which bodies are seen as most desirable? So that's the definition of the fuckability trap. I don't know where you're going with the actual question. No, but the trap that you were talking about. And you see, this is where I, like, I get stuck because it's so complicated and layered. You talk about social media and how we're given these signals.

We're showing these signals. Post a picture of yourself, you know, just sitting in a park drinking your coffee. Yeah, get a few likes. Post the same picture in a bikini. Likes go up. Go back to a picture of you reading a book. A few likes. A bikini likes go up.

Am I reading in the bikini in this case? Yeah. Cut. I mean, that's good. I mean, everybody wants to be smart and hot. Like, that's the goal for everybody. That is the goal. Can I tell you, we need to normalize that, by the way.

I'm so jealous of that line because I wish I had. No, but it's true, though. You can steal it. It can be worse. No, I like this because I feel like we make it seem like it has to be one or the other. We make it seem like we also make it seem like it shouldn't like exist. And maybe maybe that goes into. this conversation, but, but, like, what did you notice in how social media has played a role

in how we define ourselves and portray ourselves in, in, in society, in and around sex? I think it is exactly what you're talking about with the bikini photos and the ways that those are valued more. So there was one young man I was talking to, and I appreciated that he said this, where he was talking about, you know, if he might see a girl that he likes on, on Instagram, he might keep scrolling and see another girl he likes, but she'll be in a bikini. And he's like, I'm probably going to like her more. Like, he's going to be more into her. And that's, I think, this thing that people have internalized, which is that they understand their sexual value and how to convey it online because they're constantly getting feedback in the form of likes and matches and follower accounts. And they can quantify what makes them appear to be sexually desirable to other people.

Yeah, appear to be being the key phrase. Right. And I think for young people who grow up constantly having that kind of feedback loop, it leads to a kind of self-objectification. where they don't think about their bodies and what their bodies can do for them. They think about what their bodies look like and how other people think about their bodies. And that feeling is linked to all kinds of negative outcomes like eating disorders or low self-esteem or even potentially people having less sex because, you know, if sex is another occasion for you to be judged and found wanting, you're not going to do it. If you feel like your body is perfect, has to look perfect in order to get naked, you're probably just not going to get naked.

Yeah, I think about when I was young, we thought the worst thing, thing, you know, when society was talking about this, the worst thing was, the magazines have very perfect bodies and perfect people. What does this mean to you? And we thought that that's the worst it could get. But now, you're on the cover of your own magazine and no one's buying your magazine. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, what does that do to you? And you can see it now. That would be devastating. But that's what's happening. Think about it. Yeah, it is. Because before, you could go like, oh, that's a supermodel. And I'm not that and that's the beauty standard. But the judgment wasn't about you. You knew what people were aspiring to. And you knew

where you were maybe in relation to it, but it wasn't about you. But now it's completely about you. Because now you've put your magazine right next to somebody else's magazine online and then a little button tells you how your magazine stacks up against somebody else's.

And so now it's not just an aspirational thing that you cannot reach. Yeah, it's a realistic one. Yeah. You see it here, right here and right now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, also we've been given, young people have been giving many more tools to make themselves appear more attractive. There was one young woman I was talking to who was talking about, you know, she posts on TikTok a lot and she took somebody else's filter and she didn't realize that the filter had made her cheeks look slimmer.

And when she accidentally removed the filter, she realized, oh, I don't like my face this way. I don't like the way my face actually looks. I liked it with the filter more. She kept fished herself. I mean, kind of. And she was saying, like, that's a terrible feeling. Yeah.

Like looking at your own face and being disappointed by it. And so not only are you, like you're given all the tools to change how your body looks on social media, can't really change your body in the same way without a lot more money and it's probably some surgery in real life. And so you're, again, just constantly being compared and contrasted and falling short. Could that be one of the things? I don't know. I haven't done any research in this field.

But could that be one of the factors? If people are living in a world where they're able to augment themselves so perfectly online, could it prevent them from interacting in real life? because you, to your, what you just said, that the catfishing of it all, I know how I look online. I don't want to show up in person because I can't do anything.

There's no filter. I can't match it. Yeah. I can't match it. And so if I stay online, I never get disappointed. I keep accruing this feeling and this, you know, but if I come into the real world, it all falls apart. Did you speak to anyone where that happened?

Were the people who were more comfortable existing as their full filter selves and then wouldn't go into the real world anymore? I think that what has happened for young people is like just so much more of their lives has been outsourced online. And the pandemic contributed to this, right? Because these are young people who are growing up. Like they didn't have prom. They didn't have graduation. Missed a few years of school.

Yeah. They missed a lot of the sort of teenage. Yeah. The moments that teach you how to handle being embarrassed or being rejected or just the nuances of human connection. And so instead they were on their screens all the time. And that for them replaced a lot of those interactions. But there's nothing that can really replace. a real life battle experience

I'm a big fan me personally of real life battle experience and I feel like there's nothing that will make you tougher and nicer at the same time than being done a favor instead of being rejected cut I'm going to tell you the truth there's some moment back in my life where I look back and I'm like

why did you date me but you know what it did for my self-esteem it took it from here to the That was a real battle. And also, so I've decided every year I do charity drive. I date someone who I wouldn't. It's my outreach. That's so generous of you.

Yeah. I write it off with my taxes. I'm like, no, there's this time I will never get back. You are a philanthropist. A few tanks of gas that I used and I took my credit card. I write it off and I'm going, okay, this is my corporate social responsibility. So that that person goes home, what they'll do is they'll say to themselves, if that guy saw me, then someone else.

else can see me. And we laugh. But there's a lot of marriages that I think are based on my theory because now people are like, you know who I dated? Now they look at me going, I dated that guy and the person behaves. No, I love that idea that they're using you as the victory. So they go like, I'm just picturing a couple right now. And then the husband is saying something. I don't know if this is working for working for you. Do you know how I used to date? And then they pull up your profile and they're like, hmm? It's like, you dated him. Yeah. Why is he wearing a bikini and reading a book in the park? He's smart and hot.

But that's my thing. But you're right, though. No, but I do like the point behind which is beautiful. And we forget that it's all real life. Yes. We often will say like the bad and the, but man, the good of real life as well. Being real life accepted, being real life chosen. Yes.

Yes. I mean, there's nothing to replace it for sure. Nothing to replace the feeling of being told, look, man, I'm out of your. league and I've realized that I can do better in life and then at that moment you feel you know shattered broken but you go look if I were you I would totally do the same and then you move on and then you start punching in your way class and when you're in your way class you're like no man I actually can do better than you and then but I think the kraf macra of relationships is what's missing it's the end goal has become the win where people I've heard people saying how would I want to

go out there and meet people where I could be sitting here watching porn yeah yeah I've heard people saying that. Yeah. So I feel like the close quarter combatness of dating that eventually leads to sex, the adventure of it all has been taken out. It's all outcome-based. Yeah. It's Netflix and chill.

And then we skip to URL and then we come back again. And then now you're talking to your friends online. You're watching girls that you will never have online. You're watching people having a good time online where else with us. You had to go out there and be rejected. So that's why my outreach program is still continuing till this day. I... It's so beautiful, Eugene.

Thank you, Trevor. So beautiful. Thank you. I'm touched. And I think inspired as well. I think a lot of people don't consider. Imagine what kind of impact you would have with your reach, with your everything. You can just, the impact.

I mean, you can have one in Harlem, the Bronx. You can outre, even in Africa, you can definitely do an outreach where a person can say, look who I took herself. And look, I dated this person. And then you can just lift up your self-esteem one girl at a time. Sometimes a man here and there. But if anyone can do both, I've seen the things you do when no one is looking. Thank you for seeing me, Eugene.

Thank you so much for seeing me. I've got you. That's me almost crying. Thank you. Sheap. Beautiful. Over to you, God. Oh, thank you.

I don't have anything to add. Press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. Let's talk about sexting. Throughout time, the way humans have expressed their sexuality

has constantly evolved and changed. And you spend a section in the book talking about like, you know, like how people see, sexting and what it should be and how they communicate their sexuality to each other. What would you say has been the biggest change for like Gen Z from what a previous generation might have considered what's appropriate, not appropriate, what they're doing or not doing? Has there been a shift?

I mean, it might be sexting. I think that, you know, when I was growing up, my parents were always like, you know, everything you put online, be prepared for the New York Times to publish on its front page. Oh, wow. I know. Really puts the fear of the New York Times into you. but now I think like everybody sends nudes

and that's just how it is and I think that there is a much more generational acceptance that like yeah probably depending on the future of American democracy if we end up having a younger president that president will probably have nudes out there and that's just how it is and so I don't think that like sexing

isn't inherently bad thing I think it gets stigmatized a lot of time because it's new and because it's lewd but one day it could be the norm Ask not what pictures Your President can send to you Ask what pictures you can send to your president I'm your president

I mean That's your best Kennedy ever Even the Kennedy with a With a bad radio speaker Kennedy's like I'd never started like that I mean look If any president got a lot of news

It was probably Kennedy That's to be honest Who's right What? I knew you had it in you. But yeah, and I don't think that. I think that we just like porn, treat sexing as a monolith and treat it as a bad thing.

And the thing is, though, that by in so doing, similar to how we pathologize sex through sex ed, we make it impossible for people to handle it when something does go wrong. We don't create avenues for people to be able to seek accountability or to even feel better about themselves when their nudes are leaked or shared, oftentimes without their consent.

And that kind of stuff happens all the time. And we just blame those people for having sent out the nudes instead of recognizing everybody sends nudes and actually leaking somebody else's nudes without their consent is a violation. But to your point, the difficulty, and I think this is something we struggle with in society across the board. We love flipping between binaries, you know, and we think the equilibrium gets reached when we go to the opposite end of a spectrum, but it doesn't, you know? So

people will go, oh, this is unequal and let's switch to the complete opposite. Now it's like, then it's like, no, now it's an unequal the other way, you know? And I remember, like, I think of goes from exclusive to super inclusive. Yeah, and it's like, but if you think of the, um,

Nelson Mandela for instance, a lot of people wondered why he said, he was like, he was like, I do not seek the oppression of black people. I do not seek the oppression of white people. I do not. And people like, why is he saying that? Because he was like, I want to be crystal clear with you. I'm fighting for equality.

I'm not fighting for a role reversal. And sometimes people miss that. And I think when you're saying that, to go back to what your parents said, that is one of the dichotomies that we also face in this world. One half of sending nudes and your nudes getting leaked is not your fault because somebody leaked your nudes. one half is your fault because you've sent nudes now I'm not saying you deserve it

please don't get me wrong I'm not saying that but I'm saying there's like we don't want to live in a world with as nuance we don't want to live in a world with as grey but I think it's important for us to say to each other and to the parents and to also go like hey hey hey please no

you are making it more likely that a nude can be I'm not saying it's good if it happens here I'm not saying you deserve it and I'm saying should but just understand that there's a risk that you're taking but on the other hand even if that risk if you are a victim of that I'm not going to now blame you, but understand like the complicated ramifications of this thing, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think in the flipping from one side to the other, like you just, it's a rejection of reality. Because reality is always in the middle. Yes. And so we can't actually acknowledge or grapple with the nuances of reality if we're constantly moving from one extreme to the other. Oh, I like that. I'd even say it's the language that people use to not make that a crime. People call it revenge porn. You're like, no, porn is an industry. It's a business with actors. We're willing participants with incentives. Someone leaking your nudes is not revenge porn.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it was never porn in that way. At all. Yeah. So I think the wording around it gives these tech companies plausible deniability because once they get dragged in to what they allow someone else to do as a proxy of someone else's willingness, then they'll be in trouble, right?

Well, there's new, I mean, advocates now would say instead of using revenge porn, we should use terms like non-consensual image abuse or intimate. You know it. Yeah. And acknowledged, yes, to your point, like porn is an industry. People participate in it for money. It's their job. Like someone who's nudes leaks, that is not them agreeing to be a performer. That is them being victimized. Yeah, it's a completely different thing. And now we've made it seem like they're part of an industry that they're not. Yeah. How do we expand that into the world of dealing with sex and the way we think about it? You know, you talk in the book about college campuses and how there's this swing that goes back and forth in how college campuses have dealt and then are now dealing with sex that is consensual or non-consensual or somewhere in this gray area on campus.

What have you found in the, has happened in the past few years? I think in general, college campuses are oftentimes treated as like ground zero for all of the kinds of battles that we're having in American life. Like right now, for example, there's a lot of discussion. around free speech on college campuses and what we should do there. But one of the things that I was looking at in the book is Title IX. And Title IX is the federal civil rights law

that protects against sex discrimination and education. And it has become a political football over how we should be treating sex and rape on college campuses, which is to say, like, under the Obama administration, it was, its powers were, I don't want to say expanded, but maybe more,

illuminated to the extent that you could use Title IX to combat sexual harassment and sexual abuse. And that sparked a huge backlash from the right that said that, you know, this was overreached by the Obama administration. And for example, they took specific aim at the standard of proof that the Obama administration said that should be used in adjudicating these kinds of cases. And so then when the Trump administration came in, they changed a lot of the rules around Title IX. and they rewrote them to, for example, make it that you have to have, like, in-person hearings around these kinds of things where both the survivor, the alleged survivor, and the alleged perpetrator have to be there. And this, amongst other changes, made it, as one activist told me, basically Title IX became unusable for survivors.

It just did not do. It became a kangaroo court. I mean, that's that. I mean, basically the Trump administration said that you guys made Title IX. a kangaroo court first, and then we're fixing it. We're going the opposite direction. And then, so like basically, it's now, at this point, the Biden administration rolled in.

They again rewrote the rules of Title IX. Trump administration, as people might have heard, is back in power. Wait, what? I know. Oh, how long have we been in here? I mean, what is interesting is, like, there are things. There are things in the book that I predicted would change under a Trump administration,

and Title IX was one of them, but I did not predict the speed at which a lot of this stuff would change. Oh, yeah. It's like in between, I mean, writing a book takes time, in between turning in the final draft and the book actually coming out, some of the stuff that I predicted would happen over the course of a four-year Trump administration happened more or less immediately. And so the Title IX rules have reverted at this point to what they were underneath the Trump administration.

And I think for a lot of survivors on college campuses, it's been very difficult and upsetting to see, like, sex effectively being treated as a political football and not really being, the nuances of it, not really being reckoned with, just people, again, flipping from one side to the other. And, you know, I think we have to think about, like, what is a college campus? Like, a college campus is where people go and learn about. the world. And if they're being taught at that age, that maybe there are not consequences for sexual abuse, for sexual harassment, for rape, like, what does that say for the rest

of their lives? Rape is one of the, rape is one of the number one reasons that women leave college campuses. And so when that happens, we're creating a situation where women are less able to flourish. They're not able to get the education. They're not able to get the jobs. They're not able to ultimately have as much of a public voice. And so we create like a snowy, effect here when we don't take sexual abuse and harassment on college campuses seriously in all kinds of ways. It's also, I always feel like it's also a little disingenuous to deal with the people

who are dealing with the ramifications of a system without thinking of the system itself. Like one of the biggest ones that throws me in my daily life is I'll think about like drunk driving. I always think it's confusing that if you sign a contract and you are inebriated, most courts would argue that you did not have the capacity to sign that contract. You were drunk at the time. So you couldn't agree. You were in an altered state.

If somebody drives drunk and they crash their car into people, they are prosecuted fully because the law says they made a decision to drive drunk. But I'm like, yeah, but that same law in another instance, you did not have the capacity to make a decision. Do you know what I mean? And it's these small paradoxes that are complicated, and that's what law needs to get into. That's what I think law was fundamentally meant to be about,

is trying to understand the complicated nuances in a society provide clarity as to how to deal with them on a case-by-case basis. But the messiness of the system isn't dealt with. Like, whenever these college things came up, I would see them have all these conversations, but very seldom would I see colleges say, what do we think about how we allow alcohol on a campus? Do you know what I mean?

And I'm not saying that that is the cause, but I'm going, you cannot separate a conversation about sex and young people from alcohol. But you're just going to talk about the people and not the environment that the people are in and how they're consuming the alcohol and then what then happens.

You with me. And sometimes I think it's such a short-sighted and small approach that you may end up swinging back and forth the whole time because you just go, oh yeah, you know, one administration goes, it's the guys who are the problem, then it's the girls who are the problem, then it's just going to keep going back and forth.

And the institutions never actually have to ask themselves, wait, what environments are we creating, to your point, in educating, in, they do those campus tours. They tell you about the morals of the camp. This is what it's like to be a student here. This is where you should go for this. I feel like even on that level, colleges should say, hey, we're going to teach you about

sex on campus. This is part of your onboarding. This is part, not sex also in life, but we're going to, like, we're going to talk about sex in a college setting. We're going to talk to people about sex. We're going to talk to you about shame. We're going to talk to you about pleasure. We're going to talk to you.

But these things are all part of sex itself. And if we don't, we're just going to be living in a world where everyone is coming in with their own little manual that was written by porn or their friends or their parents or random school teacher that taught them nothing. And then we wonder why there's so many breakdowns. in that world. Do you know, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, I do think colleges do try to some extent. Like, I remember on my college campus, we did get, you know, a talk about how to handle sex, how to handle drinking. And the thing is, like, I still didn't really know

that Title IX existed until my senior year. Oh, got it. And so it's not something that I think can be solved by, like, one talk that the college campus gives to incoming freshmen, especially I mean, when you're an incoming freshman. I mean, I mean, like, it's, it's, to me, it's, to me, it's a syllabus. It's part of life. But carry on. Sorry. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that it just, I don't know, I think, I'm thinking back to all these young women I interviewed. So in the course of doing these interviews, I never asked people if they had been sexually assaulted. Like, that was not a standard question that I had because it didn't necessarily want to put people into a space that they weren't willing to talk about it. Yeah. But I was staggered by the number of young women

and some young men who told me that they had been sexually assaulted, that it just, it just, came up organically in the course of the conversation. And to me, I feel like we are just simply not at a place where we are dealing with this or thinking about this at the scale that it's occurring. I did ask people, you know, can you tell me about a cultural or social or political event that shaped your approach to sex? And almost all of them said me too. Most of them had memories of it. Some of them didn't, which was very shocking to me because it made me feel very old. But it turns out that very little has really changed Post Me Too in terms of actual legal reforms, actual changes on college campuses. The main change we saw PostMe2 was reforms in

NDA laws, which are not very helpful for college students who are not working, and better HR trainings, or more HR trainings, I should say, on sexual. And yet again, they're also not at work. Right. And so it just, we really, I think, have a resistance to having any, of these kinds of conversations about the system or about how the system can be improved or what the law should do or what even like we should talk about as in terms of culture like is the law always the best mechanism for dealing with the aftermath that's a great question actually like not everybody actually wants to go through the legal system i can tell you i was sexually assaulted in college i never thought about going to the cops because it was me and him alone in a room and like i knew that was

my word against his and it wasn't going to end well and incarceration is also not necessarily the same thing as justice. And so I felt like what became very clear to me is in talking to these young people, it's like there is just a resounding failure across the board to take sexual assault and sexual abuse in its aftermath seriously. And like maybe Title IX, we at least need to be talking about Title IX as more than a political football in this environment. It can't just be something that Democrats and Republicans used to wield against each other to prove that one, oh, you're attacking men, you're attacking women. It has to be something that we actually have real conversations about as a law or as, like, the beginning of a foundation for

cultural change. It's a noble thought, but I can't, no, I can't. No, I can't. No, fair enough. Yeah. I can't help but think to myself, is that a possibility, like, ever in our evolution as humans? Because you can go back and read, I mean, like, like, ancient texts.

And it's shocking to find, like, the Greeks and the whatever, like, on a, on a, on a legal level talking about morality and what is and isn't permissible and what a pervert is and you know it feels like it's always going to be politicized it's always going to be political because to what you said in the beginning of the conversation there's a power attached to it and it's also a very a very um it's the perfect tool to define where morality lies in a society you know you think of like law or yeah no but like how we view sex and the and the even beyond the laws around it itself, but the how we view it. You know, you think of colonial writing, the savages, the way they have sex and the

savage sex and the, it's such a powerful tool to define where the norm exists and where the other starts. And I actually wonder, because you do write quite a lot about this, I actually wonder how much you think we can learn from societies or peoples who have been pushed to the fringes of society, because I often find that they do a lot of work in defining sex in a way that like mainstream doesn't. You know what I mean? Like I remember in and around the Me Too movement,

I learned more from the BDSM communities that came up online. Everyone was like, but how would we know? And then BDSM people were like, oh, so this is what we do. This is because we have been choking. We have been whipping. We have been. And it was, I was ignorant to it. I couldn't believe that people who were in those communities had checklists

and had very, you know, like tender and interesting guidelines. guidelines on how to go about this. And so I wonder what, like, what you learned about what we could learn by engaging with groups or communities who have generally been pushed out to the fringes. I mean, a lot. I think that a lot of these groups, I mean, BDSM is a great example. And I'm paraphrasing somebody else who said this, a philosopher at Yale who's talked about BDSM needs hierarchy into an erotic resource through consent.

Wow. And so you can use consent to take, you know, all of these different. hierarchies in society and, like, work with them and make them a part of your sexual play and your pleasure. And the fact of the matter is, like, I don't think that we should necessarily be aiming at abolishing hierarchies or that, because I just don't think it's necessarily possible. Right. But I do think that there are a lot of communities that have thought a lot about, like, how do we take the world as it is and figure out a way to ring pleasure out of this? I was really inspired in doing these interviews

by the number of young people I spoke with who were interested in activism around sex. I talked with a lot of young people who were fighting against sexual assault who were fighting for abortion rights against abortion rights who were fighting for LGBTQ plus rights. And there was one young woman

who I talk about in the book Zoe who actually, she had been sexually assaulted and she had also had her nudes leaked multiple times. And she, it was devastating for her. It was profoundly difficult for her to pick herself up again after that. But she got involved in plebyshire advocacy on campus and became really invested in sex ad. And she got to a point where, you know, she is interested in sending nudes to her now boyfriend. And so the answer isn't necessarily, you know, never send nudes again.

You've been hurt by it. It's to create a framework for yourself where you can say, okay, I recognize the risks. Like maybe my nudes will get leaked again. Maybe this boyfriend, who I love so much, will betray me. But if I go into these situations knowing the risks, I will feel more empowered than I did in a previous situation that I was in. And I found those kinds of stories to be very inspiring because, you know, people do pick themselves up and go on after these circumstances. And they do think about new frameworks for themselves that make them feel comfortable as opposed to just rejecting the thing that had hurt them in the past. I don't want to probe into your posture.

So please feel free, feel free to not share. But I'd love to know what you would have thought justice would have looked like in your story. Because you say you weren't comfortable in going to the police, but you wanted something to happen. But you said an interesting phrase after that. You said you don't necessarily think that incarceration would have been the right solution. So when you look back on that, and again, like I say, we can move on. But like, what do you think justice would have looked like for you? I think an apology would have actually done a lot.

Yeah. Like it actually, I wasn't, I wouldn't have really needed, frankly, that much. And I should say that I wasn't raped it. I described it in the book. But it basically became like he wanted a blow job. I didn't want to give him one. We had like a physical tussle over it. And I ultimately was able to effectively push him out of my apartment. And so maybe if someone had had had had had like a different kind of soul, there was just a different person, they would have wanted more. But I would have felt that if he had acknowledged what had happened as something that had hurt me and said, I'm sorry that I did that. That would have been. been enough for me. And, you know, this is something that gets talked about in the concept of restorative justice, which I bring up a little bit in the book, which is that you can have, if you have conversations and create a safe space for conversations, I think people don't necessarily realize that, like, you know, there's actually a wide variety of outcomes that some people would accept that are not just punitive. Yes. But we don't create the space for those kinds of outcomes. We don't create the possibility for envisioning a world where it's like, it's not necessarily

the law that's going to solve all of this stuff for us. Yeah, in a world where the law has now become responsible for handling all of communities' conversations, like every aspect of a conversation that should be held in a community, everything becomes legal. Do you know what I mean? And that's, that's like one of the things that you see, it's really big in America, but it's expanding to the rest of the world as well, where people have lost or misunderstand the value of, as you said, I'm sorry or the value of do you acknowledge the thing that happened to me the value of and because of the business side of it yeah you know which you talk about all the time there isn't really value in the other one there's no there's no money in the sorry side but there's money in the legal

side you know what I mean there's money in the punitive side you put the person away in jail there's money to be made somewhere but there's no money in connecting human beings on a restorative on a restorative part so that's like it's a it's a beautiful way to thank you of it. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think in the most softest side of it, which is the one extreme, which is

an emotionally unavailable boyfriend for a woman, is again the battleground is a female body. And on the extreme side of it, which is assault and rape, is still the female body. And on the other end of it,

they can only be one perpetrator because they come from one gender. So even the innocent parties feel like one step could get me in a wrong place. So I think young people are not having sex because they don't like the human connection. I think they're scared. Women are scared for what might happen to them. Men are scared of what they might do because they don't know much. So I think you're right when you're saying it should be all encompassing when it comes to

sex education because I think it exposed how much is missing from those people that we look at and go those were the nuclear family who are conservative. in how they behave. Yeah, yeah, how they show the world. Yes, because at some point we have to admit that that generation also raised well-balanced and well-rounded individuals. So now this freestyling that's going on has left kids to their devices quite sooner. Kids take themselves to school earlier.

They do their own homework. They bring themselves back. So there's no conversation. There's no way. And also, for males, especially I can speak for myself, I'll see that with younger ones, there's no examples of what a good man is. of what a good protector is. You know, I've had these conversations in South Africa

where during GB gender-based violence month, I would say, I hate how... That's where we're against it, by the way. Yeah, that one month. Just no, but we're against it, just so you know. Because you never know... A bit night on the 31st! You never...

But you can't just say the month, because you never know if you fall against, against. I assumed against, but... I'm just letting you know. I don't want you walking away being like in South Africa. They celebrate gender-based violence for a month. We don't celebrate it. Highlighted.

Against. Yes. So, and I said these activists and these NGOs, I feel like there's someone behind them, obviously, because their assault side of it, like punitive side of it is a big business. And when they say they want to take the drive to younger men at school,

I'm like, no, you can't automatically assume that a young man is going to commit sexual assault against or gender-based violence against a woman. You're not giving them the benefit of a doubt. You're already accusing them before they've gotten their first kiss or their first crush. fear to your point is something you talk about even on the you talk about in the book in and around like Roe v. Wade

and it is something that has to be again we don't know any number conclusively but I do appreciate how you talk about what fear does to us and how we how we should like count in all these things you're in school the fear is you have sex you're going to die or you're going to have a 16 pound baby these are your options and then you move on to another one and then it's like your fear if you're a virgin you're a loser you're going to die

you know it's fear and then there's another type of fear if I come forward I'll be shamed or I will be you know I won't be listened to or this or it'll be a kangaroo call it becomes a fear and then you come into another situation if I say no I'll be rejected if I say no it's a fear if I don't say yes even as like guys you how many young men I've talked to who go I don't think that as a man I have the option to not one sex

yeah I want to be clear also you know one in 25 young one in 25 men in the US has been penetrated against their will and one in nine has been made to penetrate somebody else against their will. But I'm saying that's them like even against their will.

I wonder if that includes men who will say and this is what I mean by the complicated nature of it. They may go not against my will but I didn't know that I can say no. Because men are expected

to always want sex. Forget it from like even kids' sides. You know how many couples are in therapy because a wife is going he doesn't want to have sex And the man's like, yeah, I don't always want to have sex. She's like, I mean, that clearly there's something wrong with me.

And then now you're living in a world where one half of the couples going, there's something wrong with me because men always want sex. Why doesn't he always want sex? And the man's like, men don't always want sex. That's not like a real thing. But now I can't say this to you. Or the man is thinking, men always want sex. Why don't I always want sex?

What's wrong with me? That's exactly. So when we talk about that fear, you're right. I think of you add another layer to it. People go, oh, Gen Z, why are they so afraid of sex? then you go, yeah. Have you seen sex lately? Yeah. And also look at Roe v. Wade. If you've told somebody that the actions of your sex could lead to somebody being pregnant when they didn't want to be pregnant, you didn't want to be pregnant. And now that, that's your life. That's your baby.

You're moving forward. Otherwise, you're a criminal. I can see some people going, ah, then I don't even want to have sex then, you know? And I'm assuming you saw this or you felt this. How much do you think that affected how Gen Z now sees sex in America? I think one of the the theses of the book is that the changes in the landscape around sex have added so much anxiety and fear around sex that it is for young people easier to opt out. And I'm not saying that this is a conscious decision that they're making. But when it feels so fraught to be vulnerable with another person, to have sex with another person, you know, why do it when porn is out there? Actually, one of the sort of moments I decided to write the book was there was a young woman who messaged me right. after Row was overturned. I think it was the following day. And she told me that she was

pregnant and she didn't want to be. But she lived in Arizona. And Arizona had a law in the books that was centuries old that banned virtually all abortions. Right. And abortion providers were afraid to provide abortions because they thought that the law might be back in effect. And so she could not end her pregnancy in the state where she was living. She ultimately ended up ordering abortion pills online and ending her own pregnancy in a motel room with her ex-boyfriend. And you know, that is safe to do. Medical experts widely agree you can order pills online and you can end your pregnancy in your first trimester. You can end the pregnancy in the first trimester pregnancy safely. But what she told me and what really stuck with me was that she felt like she was being humiliated

for having sex. That even though the abortion was something she wanted, she felt empowered in having it, she felt like that was a good decision for her. She felt like Republicans in particular were trying to punish her for having been a person that had sex. And I think that that is a feeling that a lot of young people are grappling with right now, which is that, oh, there is politics is making me a bad person for having sex or the state of politics, I would say right now is making me a bad person for having sex. And, you know, with Roe v. Wade gone and more than a dozen states having banned almost all abortions at this point, you know, we're creating a generation that has to grapple with that fear every. day and has to think about, okay, if I did get pregnant or if I do get somebody else pregnant, what are we going to do? Do I have the money to end this pregnancy? Could we go out of state? What does it mean if I just continue to have this baby? One in five men have been involved

with somebody who went on to have an abortion. And so this is not just something that affects women. Knowingly or unknowingly? Both. And so this is not just an issue that just affects women. It is something that many of the young men I spoke to were also thinking of. about, and we're also wrapped with anxiety over. Yeah. I've seen how it also, what's happening in the world affects our men date. Because sometimes disagreements with someone that you're dating are very tricky when you think what could happen when they leave here.

You know, I've seen people who are going, yeah, but you know, we might not agree about me not wanting to have sex with her or her wanting to do it with me. Not, nah, she's here, I must play along so that at least I'm safe. It's not a thing of when she can go out there and change her. mind about what happened here because also we've had stories of people who become malicious and weaponize the fact that many women get raped and many women get sexually assaulted and a slight disagreement in a relationship can turn to you know we had a few of those stories it is actually sad how that happens we've seen a few of those stories recently in the news

and it is it is interesting to use the airplane analogy it's amazing how people can use a few stories to create so much fear and do you know what I mean it's like a it's it's it's it's it's messy and it's complicated and it's like I wonder if you came to any um I wonder if you came to any light at the end of a tunnel and not that this is a morbid thing by the way you know yeah but like listen like to what Eugene is saying now I agree with completely do know what I'm saying. Think about like some of the conversations we've had on this podcast in different episodes. You, you know, you have a healthcare industry that does something that's pretty good for people with their kidneys, dialysis. And then there's a few companies who come in and

go, this is how we can use this to make money and it hurts people. In the same instance here, you know, some people can use the laws in their favor to hurt somebody. They can hurt, women can use a law to hurt men. Men have been using the law and their favor to hurt women for, you know, decades and decades. But where's like the, is there a hope in all of this? Or is it just us always grappling with the messiness that is never

contained? I mean, I think grappling with the messiness can be something that is a hopeful process. Because I think the messiness of sex is what makes it interesting. What is what makes it kind of fun. And I think that we shouldn't try to make sex something that is black or white or that is very strictly one thing or the other. Like, I think we should

try to look at sex in the landscape of its messiness and enjoy that. And I think one of the things that did give me hope was the extent to which young people were trying to do that. And I think because these young people have grown up, seeing Rogan overturned, seeing Me Too break out, dealing with a profoundly turbulent political environment, I think they understood a lot earlier than say I did, that sex has political dimensions. And that no matter what we do, sex will always have those political dimensions and that political valence. And they said to themselves in many instances, okay, given that that is true,

what can I do in my community to change those dimensions and make sex be something that is something that I don't have to be afraid of or that my friends don't have to be afraid of? And I think that as much as the political elements of sex can make people anxious, it can also give them the feeling like, okay, I can create change around sex. It's not just something that happens in a bedroom between me and my partner or me and my partners.

It's something that I can go out and try to redefine the terms of in school rooms or go out and try to redefine this terms of in school board meetings and in courtrooms and in state legislatures and in Congress. Like it is possible to change as opposed to thinking that sex is just this dirty thing that we can never ever seek to make better. 100%. I think what's tricky about sex is both a want and a need. at the same time. Oh, damn. So it makes people, you know, very confused about where to draw the line. So, yeah. Yeah, that, I never thought of it like that.

Did I, you see what I did there? You, you won. So these things happen often in this podcast. I'll take it to the top, top, top. Then we get stuck with. Then there's just a moment of silence, of reverence. There's a moment of silence. The pointedness of your, just that was an incredible insight.

I mean, more than that, what happens is I think to myself, we're so lucky that he would dare to be with us. This community service is just, I go, wow. Again, your philanthropy. We just don't deserve. I just, that's what I think to myself. I'm like, man, I've got to go and talk to somebody who doesn't deserve it the way I don't deserve to listen to you. Carter, we really had fun.

This was great. I think I appreciate more than anything how nuanced your book is. you know in a world where everything is turning into like one thing or another it's so rare to read an account of just like human complexity you know age gender legal parent child you name it I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't be seen in this book and so thank thank you for coming and chatting to us about it and you know I hope everyone reads it and I can't wait to see what you write about in the next one Thank you so much. That's very kind of you to say.

Thank you very much. This is dope. Too much fun. Thank you for all the sex plans. You are so good. You made this so much fun. Yeah, man, thank you very much for real. Of course, thank you. Jeez.

That was fun. This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market is the place to get everything you need for Thanksgiving, with great prices on turkey, quality organic produce, grab and go sides, and everyday low prices from. 365 brand you can prep for the holiday with big savings. Shop everything you need for Thanksgiving now at Whole Foods Market. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Senaziamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Paduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?