What Now? with Trevor Noah - How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan [VIDEO]

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Trevor and Christiana sit down with Chappelle's Show co-creator and former Daily Show colleague Neal Brennan. The three friends discuss the importance of familial dysfunction to a life of comedy, whether jokes about racism, sexism, transphobia, and the like help or hurt move the human race forward in today’s climate, and the rise and fall of anger as a way of life. Well, of Neal’s life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are few people I know who have spent more time in comedy than Neil Brennan. Like few human beings. And when I say comedy, I mean every level of comedy. TV. Administration. Yeah, no really. Paperwork. No, really.

Scheduling. You are that guy. Club comedy, Neil Brennan has been in the trenches of the trenches. So I was going to ask you about this, but like, I feel like there is no comedian who does not have something wrong with them. No good comedian, actually. I learned that from the Daily Show.

I was like, all these people are insane. I was like, these are not normal people. Yeah, and it doesn't matter what it is. It might just, it might be your family. It might be the country you lived in. It might be just a neurodivergent thing that you have in your own head and you grew up in a fine world.

What's funny is doing, I do a podcast called Blocks where I have people on and we talk about their issues. Yeah. And I know that they're not the real issues. Do you know what I mean? Like these are the issues that you're willing, these are the showcase issues. Oh man. And I'm like, are the showcase issues. Oh man.

And I'm like, the real issue. But do you think they know? A couple days a year, they know. They know, a couple days a year they can actually be like... But they don't want to look at it. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. If you don't know Neil Brennan, you probably don't know comedy, right? Neil Brennan is in many ways like the Forrest Gump of comedy. He has been everywhere. He knows everyone. no comedian who is worth their salt in anything

Does not have a story about Neil Brennan. I don't care where they're from. I don't care what they're doing every I'm talking about Comedians from other countries as well. Not just in America like they know Neil Brennan, right? I know some of your story, but I don't want to miss it especially for the audience. So Neil Brennan is born where? Philadelphia, outside Philadelphia. Okay, I had like Ireland in my head for some reason. It feels like it. It feels like it.

It's the Brennan, it's such an Irish name. It really is. I'm an Irish citizen, but I got my citizenship recently. Oh, look at you. I don't know what to do with it. Congratulations. Just do it, just use it. I'm gonna, yeah, EU. I'm gonna move somewhere in the EU., but. Congratulations. I have it. Just do it. Just use it. I'm going to, yeah, eat you.

I'm going to move somewhere and eat you. The, uh. Okay. So you born in Philadelphia? Born in Philadelphia. The last of 10. The last of 10. How many boys, how many girls?

Six, total six boys, four girls. And yeah. And then, I don't know, it was just, you've, you've the youngest of 10. It's pretty chaotic. And, uh, it's a lot of kids in a house. It's a bit like an orphanage, but no one comes. No one comes to take anybody. Okay, I'm curious, like the age gap between one and 10

and where your parents are 10. 10 kids in 16 years. 16 years, but I'm curious about by the time your parents got to you, were they like, oh, fuck it. It was pretty new testament. It was just kind of like, ah, you'll, it's, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. But I, but still I was like, I worked a lot. I caddied.

I, but I was like, drank, smoked. And my mom would just kind of not even. Where, how old are you when this is happening? 13. Damn. Yeah. 13, 14. I got underage drinking when I was 16 cups. Oh damn. Yeah.

So you were a troublemaker kind of. Yeah, but I'd stopped once I, I remember the end of high school being like, I don't really need to drink. Like I've never been that into alcohol. It was just like, I was just doing it. I wouldn't much, I was, I was similar in that, like I was friends with a lot of friend groups

and pretty funny and like... Was the family funny? Because I've never known this part of your comedy. Who was the funny in your family or where did the funny come from? My dad liked comedy. I think a lot of what his jokes were kind of stolen from like Frank Sinatra, where I'd go like, oh, I know that cadence.

Where I'd listen to Frank, I'd watch a Frank Sinatra and I'd be like, oh, that's where he got it. He was one of 13, so in it's a lot of boys in that family, he's raised seven boys in his family. So it was like a lot of sort of sarcasm. And then this is a funny story. At one year at Thanksgiving, I'm in high school, one of my brothers said, Kevin, you're not even the funniest one in the family.

Neil is. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Wow. Like kind of overly competitive for funniest, I guess. Specifically for funniest. I, well, I guess in this case, yeah. Yeah. Or something.

Yeah. There was, it was, but now in this case, yeah. Or something, yeah. But now having said that, my older brothers and sisters were all so great to me in that they all had jobs that were interesting that I got access to. My brother Joe was a caddy on the PGA tour, so I would go to PGA tour events. Oh damn. And knew Kevin was a comedian, So I got on tray into that in high school knew David Tell knew Louie knew like

Met Louie when I was in high school Ray Romano all these guys Tommy worked at the Chicago Stadium and Wrigley fields. I used to go to Cubs games Bulls games. I Saw a white girl mistake Michael Jordan for somebody else. That's how long ago this was. Imagine how long ago this was. A white girl said, hey, are you Orlando Woolridge? And I remember Michael Jordan's face falling. It'd be like, no, I'm Michael Jordan.

This is prehistoric time. So I got a lot of possibilities. I got to see a lot of possibilities and like a lot of life choices and like paths from the family. Whenever I think of big families, I'm torn. You know, my family, like brothers are split, right? So I have two younger brothers, one is 10 years younger, one is 20 years younger. So for all intents and purposes, it feels like we were all single kids in a way, but

then we all occupy an age position, you know? So I do feel like the eldest because of age, but not because- Has your mom's parenting changed a lot? So I would say she's changed, but not her parents. So her ability to execute her parenting style has evolved with age. Like I was talking to my youngest brother about this the other day. It's like, I don't think my mom's vibe changed, but when I was young, she could chase me. When my brother was naughty, she couldn't chase him as much as she could chase me. So I think she then had to adapt. But over a long distance, she always got me.

She always got me. But I always wondered, like in a big family, like, cause I craved it most of my life. And then I would meet people in mega big families and they would say, oh, I felt forgotten. I felt like there wasn't enough love to go around. Like did you feel like that? Yeah, I think just it's a resources issue. Now, having said that, the economist Thomas Sowell used to say there are no solutions,

there's only trade-offs, which I think is just true about everything. So there's no one thing, like that's better. Cause then only children, there's like downsides to only children, apparently, ego and they don't know how to share or they don't know how to interact or whatever, but they're very loved, maybe too loved. Um, I, I don't, so I don't, I think you could persuade me either way.

I think if a kid's loved, that's good. If, if, but I wasn't necessarily like, didn't get the most love from my dad, specifically my mom like wanted to, but like had to cook or whatever. So, and she did, but it was just, it's just, you know, she had her hands full. So, I don't know.

I don't know what the best, what do you, you're doing it. I know. So how do you- Well, I'm curious before I answer this, do you and your siblings get on? Are you close? Remember that Thanksgiving story? Yeah.

That spirit remains. Oh. I mean, it's- So it's openly competitive? My dad was competitive with us. So I think that there's like, that's kind of- So it sounds like succession. I mean-

I was about to, like your dad could be- It's white trash succession. White trash succession. You said it. No, exactly. Yeah, it's, yeah, it is, it's competitive. One of my brothers used to keep track of who made the most money.

That's dark. Yeah, and then Chappelle Shell happened and he was like, this is stupid. So, so, so I don't, you know, I would say it's, it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not. But the good news about 10 Kids, you don't have to be close with all of them. Yeah, that's, you know, I would say it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not. But the good news about 10 kids, you don't have to be close with all of them.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's multiple families in one fam. Cause most of the time I feel like your siblings sort of not have to be, but you have to be close with them because these are the only people who've shared your existence. But then when there's 10, there's a lot of people who've shared your existence.

You can choose within the 10. And there's also that generational thing of my brother Joe, 16 years older than me. So he said to me recently, I realized we never really knew each other. I was like, yeah, how would we have? He moved out when I was four or something or maybe even 30.

So it becomes more like an uncle thing. Also the thing with siblings is just like, if you weren't siblings, oftentimes you wouldn't be friends. That's just like, if you met them in a bar, what are the odds? But now you're forced to become friends, which is- What do you, okay, so tell me what your plan is, and if you're executing it. I'm reading this book called Siblings Without Rivalry.

Okay. Oh, look at that. When I'm done with the book, I'll let you know. I'm really afraid because I come from, I don't know if it's like African family dynamics. I don't want to be generalized here, but I always remember there were always like fights about land and fights about... That sounds so parochial. I was about to say that sounds like an insult that someone was saying to an African. I'm just gonna listen. It sounds like Trump. They're eating cats and dogs, fighting over land.

No, no, but like, I just, conflict was kind of ambient in the extended family. Me and my sisters are figuring it out. We're at very different phases in our lives, but we're a good unit. It's underneath that big tree from Black Panther, right? Basically. That's the one. Jesus. It's just a big tree from Black Panther, right? Basically. That's the one. Jesus. Am I seeing this feud right?

The vibranium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christiana, there are a few things you need to focus on with your siblings. You know the weirdest thing for me with Black Panther is like sometimes when I do the, because it's like the accent that they're doing is a South African accent, but they're not a South African accent. So even when I do it, I have to like,

I have to undo. And you were in it and do a different accent, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to like, because I wanted to match the general accent. So I didn't want to like come in there with like a weird, like what is this guy doing? And then, so I was like, no, I'll try and like figure out the vibe that everyone's in and

then I'll go from there. And then so it's very weird for me. Are your parents still alive? My mom is. How old is she? 91. Wow. Or 90.

90. What was it like for you when your dad passed away? Because you know, you share very openly in your special about how, and I think you and I have connected a lot on this, growing up in a home with a man who's very violent, with his alcohol, like it's a terrifying existence. And I think you and I, I don't know, we bond around this. I think a lot of our comedy is shaped by this or this feeling.

But I've always wondered, what did it feel like when your dad passed away? The interesting thing was like we'd kind of made peace prior to him dying. And then he did the thing with the whale, which is in three mics. For those who don't know, what did? Netflix is a streaming platform.

It's a special on there. It's one of my three specials, one called three mics, one called blocks and one called a crazy good, which is the newest one. Pretty popular. My dad, we never really got along. And then he died and left money as well to everyone but me. So it was just painful.

That part was painful. But I just don't, it's weirdly like doing three mics got it out of me, got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down on me, it used to be like a cause of anger. And now it just, either from doing three mics or something. I just can kind of see the positive in that. And I actually wrote him a note before he died.

Love. Like I appreciate the socioeconomic position he put me in, meaning like I got to go to NYE, I'm paid for some of it, but like NYU is not cheap. Anything was possible, which I think is a thing that you is a kind of as a parent is gotta be one of the main goals. He one time said like, you know, when I was growing up, we were told all you had to provide your kid

was food and shelter. And I remember going like, you know, the government can do that. But so I guess it's, he's born in 1930. Like, ah, that's a different world. It's just a different, and I've gotten more,

I don't even know if I've gotten empathetic, but I've certainly gotten less angry as time goes on. I'm curious, were you angry because you thought he was trying to spite you? Because like my instant mind goes to as a parent, he didn't leave you the money because you were the most successful and he's the kid that thought you were going to be okay. That's like my parent giving him this great and yes, yes. But was your anger because you're like, oh, you're trying to spike me?

Yeah, it felt like a flick. Like a last little flick. Like, oh, well, you're Mr. Tough Guy or something. But yeah, it could go either. It's one of those things that like could be. And you haven't, have you asked your mom? Have you asked your siblings? Basically, yeah, they tried to talk him out of it.

Oh, so they knew? Yeah. So you didn't know leading up to it? I didn't know. Wow. They knew. And they tried to talk him out of it. And he was like,

ah, ah, and he just, and then I've heard from another brother that he did, he was sort of slagging him about, like, you're just here for the money. Oh, wow. Like, it was sort of a real, he went down swinging, so to speak. So I don't really know what to make of it other than I'm glad I don't carry it, because it's just not, it's not helpful.

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. So I'm curious because you guys are both comedians, I'm not. Is comedy really that cathartic? Because like hearing you say like, I released this thing, I surrendered it, and I can put it behind me, is the work that... Some of it is, you just say it so much that it's in a weird way you'll relate. Yeah. It's like material you don't believe anymore.

It's like you just, Chappelle is an observation that jokes are like tires, that the tread wears out. And if I'm doing a show about my dad, you just after a while it's like, I don't know what. So there's partially that, which is just sort of like getting tired of saying something. And I would say it's more from the spiritual stuff of like releasing it.

But there was before the spiritual stuff, there was this idea of like, yeah, I don't know. I think I just sort of like talked it out. Have you, you talk less personally than I do, but your earlier shows were a little more personal. Yeah, actually, so I used to speak more personally and then I realized- Won't make that mistake again.

No, I think there was a, there's sort of a weird idea I adopted in and around taking over The Daily Show and I was like, don't make it about you. Do you know what I mean mean it was like, okay, it's about the show. It's about the work It's about the you know, and and now on the other side of it now, I'm going back into more personal material now I'm going back into But it's funny. I I never thought I never thought it was cathartic So even even in your early work when you share about no experience I'll be honest. I don't I don't think and I don't think it's cathartic for most comedians, if I'm

honest. I think what happens a lot of the time is comedians have found like a, it's almost like a, it's like a shield that you can put in front of you to seem like you are dealing with the thing, but you are not dealing with the thing. And you're speaking about it to people. So people are like, oh wow, you're speaking about it. So you must be over it or you must be. But I don't think it's cathartic. The reason I don't think it's cathartic is because

comedians get to do the thing with the audience. So that is we escape with the laugh. Do you know what I mean? And so I think real catharsis requires you to stay in something until it is released, as opposed to finding a way to escape. Is it avoidance then? No, it's not avoidance.

Look, it's not avoidance. I think, and I was thinking about this before this conversation, I was going to ask you, this generation of comedians is the first, I remember the shift. I don't know if you remember. There was a point in comedy where we saw almost every few months, a comedian committing suicide somewhere. You would just hear it. You'd walk into a comedy club.

The good old days. Everyone would be around. Everyone would be around a table in the club. And there'd just be like a sad feeling and you'd be like, hey, what's going on? And they'd be like, oh, did you hear about Bobby? Did you hear about blah, blah, blah? And you'd be like, what happened? They're like, oh, yeah, no, they found him in a hotel room in Pennsylvania.

They found him in a hotel room in Ohio or something. They found him in a hotel room. And this was constant. It was just, it was, and it was almost, it was almost expected in many ways. And then I don't know what happened, but suddenly something shifted. All of a sudden, comedians wouldn't be ordering the chicken wings backstage. They were ordering the celery and the kale

and the baby carrots and the hummus. And then they wouldn't be ordering a drink, like a cocktail or whiskey. They'd be ordering water. And then comedians would be like, oh yeah, I gotta leave now, I'm working out in the morning. I mean, in a way it's a contradiction in that, that people are getting, I think culture in general is getting more self-carey.

Yeah, wellness. Yeah, wellness, yeah. Now, the thing I wanted to talk to you about was, I had something I wanted to talk to you about, which is the, what I call, wisdom theater, or wellness theater, performative wellness, performative wisdom, meaning we talked about a mutual friend of ours who wanted to be

the most healed guy. Oh, Jesus, yeah, this is killing me. Where people go on podcasts, they host podcasts, they, no offense. No offense to all of us, including yourself. No offense to everyone. To present company included. Yes.

Where it becomes about performing wisdom, performing self-care. Performing altruism, performing, yeah. Performing altruism, performing self care. Performing altruism, performing, yeah. Performing and all, and it's like, this isn't it either. Do you think it's even helpful to have all of this like, I meditated this morning, and just all that stuff? Because I believe it's all for,

in service of being better at capitalism. I always say, you know, the easiest way to see it, I'll tell my friends, is when you look at a post, let's say online, as soon as somebody says, here's how I did it, or, you know, this is how I became more productive, or I'm like, no, that's not the point. Yeah. Right.

Like meditating is not about becoming more productive. Buddha was all about rising and grinding. If you know the story at all, it's all about. I don't know, I just think we're in the age of it right now and I accept it, you know? And I'll be honest, I don't mind the fact that the trend right now is to be healthy. Right.

Because that's a fine trend. Yeah, no, if you're gonna pick trends. Yeah, it's like- I love wellness. It's the best workaholism being the best of being. You don't even want to. I'm vegan, so I don't want to talk, don't even talk to me. There was a time in comedy where one thing comedians all shared was comedy. Right?

It didn't matter like who you were, where you were from, what you did, black, white, old, young, woman, man, it really didn't matter. It didn't matter who you were, where you were from, what you did, black, white, old, young, woman, man. It really didn't matter, it didn't matter. We had this thing where we would go into a comedy club and it was like comedy time and we all just had comedy. And then I noticed over the past few years, and it's funny, I'm less worried about it for comedy and I'm more worried about what it means for society,

is I've noticed a creep of polarization even in comedy. Like comedy used to be everyone does everything and they're comedians and someone will get on stage and say the craziest joke that is whatever, you know, it can be anything, misogynistic, racist, you name it. But it's within the confines of comedy, like they're using the tools to make a joke about it, right? And then now comedy is slowly becoming like,

oh, well, those people, that's their politics. We don't do comedy with them. And these people, we don't do comedy with them. Like, do you think politics is gonna end comedy as we know it? It is, well, it's cult, it's the world. Like I've known Joe Rogan 30 plus years. And I didn't know it his politics until nine years ago.

And it's not because they were, he didn't have any, it's just because you didn't know. You literally didn't know what somebody's politics were. Until, I'm gonna say 2008, the internet, social media. And then once social media started, then it became like Twitter and dunking on people and you see so-and-so's tweet and that's, I'm triggered and that's inappropriate

and that's, they're gonna pay. And now I have to like mute them or I have to not like, I've actually thought, can I like this tweet? Because there's gonna be some sort of- There's people who will see that you liked it. Yes, and then we're all part of so many different groups that we've always been, but it just kind of didn't, they weren't, you didn't wear them all all the time. Yeah.

Now it's almost like the, there was a Daily Show joke, I think, where they had the Formula One, or the NASCAR sponsorships. Right, right, but it was all the badges of- All the badges of people that had donated. That's where all these things now, and we used to just not be. I was thinking this back when Elon Musk

had the rocket come back down to Earth. I remember watching that. First of the- I texted him. I was so excited. Go ahead. I've known him 29 years. Go on. You're clearly a verified user.

Yeah, I watched the rocket come down. First I thought it was a fake video because it's so amazing that it looks fake. Did you watch the longer one? Like the 92nd one? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's the one I'm talking about. Wait, this is gonna land?

So I thought it was going, I thought someone had reversed the video because I was like, this makes no sense. I was like, physics, what is happening here? And I'm watching all of this. And then I texted all my friends, especially like friends who love tech and everything. I was like, this is the most amazing thing.

Have you seen this? And I was like, have you? And people were like, screw that guy. I know. Whereas you were going like, maybe you, and people were like, screw that guy. I know. And I was like, Where as you were going like, maybe the fascism's worth it. That's not what I was saying. That's not what I was saying.

And I've now learned on the podcast, I have to now be very clear. That's not what I was, no. This does not represent me. No, and even in my group of friends, I didn't understand, and I still don't understand, why people feel the need to tell me how they feel about a thing that I know they feel about,

but I'm like, I'm your friend. If I send you a video of an Elon Musk rocket being caught from space, and I go, this is amazing, don't say to me, Elon Musk sucks. I know how you feel. Yeah, they're afraid in that thing of like if I like this tweet, am I gonna get in trouble? Yeah, but this is in our own messages. I know.

But... We're friends. Right, but it's infected that as well. Oh man, that's terrifying to me. It really has. I think it's... That is terrifying to me. I think it's once once people start releasing texts in court cases in in doxing case any of these that's like this is bad. No, this is bad.

No I okay. I'm gonna go on the record and say I will never judge anybody for texts that get released unless those texts indict them about something they've done in public. Because of the con, it's like a comedy club. It goes back to the same rule. If we're in a comedy club, we know that the people in here are trying to say things that elicit a laugh from the audience.

So a comedian will make a joke about anything. They'll make a joke about murder, they'll make a joke about genocides, they'll make a joke about rape, they'll make a joke. I heard a comedian make a joke referring to a bunch of suicides as the good old days. That was on this podcast. I don't know where I heard it. That was on one of the episodes.

What? Go back through the episodes and you'll find it. But that's what I mean. There's the context. And when we maintain that context, people know, oh yeah, you can send something to your friend or your family member that is egregious, it can be the most horrible thing towards them or towards somebody else.

But because of the context, they know that you're joking, they know that, do you get what I'm saying? And I actually worry about that world. I don't want to live in a world where we now have to, sort of like- Thought police. Yeah, we have to now go like, I've never had that thought. I do not think anything that is bad could be funny.

I do not think... Or never say in private what you won't stand behind in public. No, but it's a joke. I wouldn't say many things. But I say, you know I say crazy stuff in private. You do actually. You do actually. But it's freedom.

Then there's no difference between private and public. Yeah, obviously there are private acts. There's things that you do in private that you would never do in public. But just be who you are. I think it's freedom. Then there's no difference between private and public. Yeah, obviously there are private acts. There's things that you do in private that you would never do in public. But just be who you are. I think it's easier. Have you ever been on a group chat or even a one-to-one chat where someone's texted something

and you've been like, boy, that's hot. Yeah, I mean, that's what texts are for. I agree. Every group chat with me. But have you ever gone, do I give it a ha ha? Do I give it a thumbs up? What do I give this? And if it ever goes public?

I've truly had that thought. So I think that society, you know, it's not to delve too deep into the world of like the shadow self and all of these things, but we need to accept that as human beings, the paradox of the brain is that it is thinking about what it should not think about even when we're telling it to think about something.

It's mostly an intrusive thought. Exactly, everything. 90% intrusive thought. When I'm on the freeway, most of the time I'm thinking, crash that, crash that, crash that, run over there, run over there, crash that, crash that. I'm not doing it though, but my brain is going, what would happen? What would happen?

What would happen? You know what I mean? So I actually personally as Trevor, I go, I judge people based on their actions, not on their thoughts. Because I go, that is in my opinion, what makes you a good person is that you act in a way that is good for other people or for yourself, and you don't follow all the thoughts that are... In fact, if you follow all the thoughts, I think they would put you in an asylum.

They would say that you are... You listen to the voices in your head. You'd just be in jail. Exactly. I personally just feel suspicious of people who are, like, nice about people all the time. Just like that person makes me feel... Oh, that... I mean, that is true. No, because I think that's what...

No, then I'm with you. But that's the world we're in right now. Like, if you say anything about anyone, public or private, it has to be a nice or kind thing. Because I just think it's not the human experience. Because I'm like, oh, I don't like them. And people are like, why? I'm just like, it's just a feeling.

They've done nothing. That's a real thing to have this visceral reaction to someone. But I think the way our politics are in the world, the way the world is going, is just that people think that they have to play nice all the time. It's just getting more and more. It's just the, the, the, uh, it's creeping. Do you think it's hurt comedy as a whole? No.

Okay. I don't, I mean, I don't, there's no comedy. First of all, it's never been more popular. It's never been more lucrative. So this idea that comedy is being hurt or cancel culture, any of that stuff. It's like, everyone I know that I want to do a joke like, yeah, you gotta be careful as a comedian because you know, you could say something and then somebody will clip it and the next thing you know, you'll be doing arenas.

Um, it's everyone I know that gets canceled. You get canceled up. It's like, uh, it's like, uh, it's the crucible. It's like, it's like, it's the crucible. It's like, how are you gonna respond to this? Yes. And then that's how people judge you. And if you, if you cower and genuflect and, or if you ignore it, or if you double down,

or there's like ways to do it, but it makes the audience trust you more, I think. Yes. I remember I bumped into Shane Gillis. And I remember chatting to him, and I genuinely mean this. I was like, I am so proud of Shane Gillis as a human being and as a comedian because he got fired off of SNL. People discarded him.

They're like, he's out. Then he amassed a huge amount of fans who were like, yeah, bring more. He's a prime case for an antagonist. They were like, bring more racism, bring more. They were like, do the thing that. And I'll never forget his first shows that he booked. I think it was at the stand actually in New York.

Shane comes out and he basically addresses the fact that people have come there to see racist Joe and he's like that's not what I do. Shane Noodle like a Chinese president. Yeah and he did and then he subverted the whole thing and he joked about it and then he and even now like I go genuinely Shane Gillis is one of the people where and I don't think anyone quote-unquote let's say has an excuse but he would have had an excuse to be an asshole. Shane was like no he's like hey man I made some jokes you didn't like them.

I'm still gonna make jokes. And genuinely now, I think he's one of the best comedians working in the world. And when you watch his comedy, I don't care what you are, by the way, conservative, liberal, whatever you think you are, Shane Gillis is funny, but I also think it's amazing to see somebody

who was able to withstand the horde that supports the worst instincts. Yeah. Because one person can go, Neil, how could you say that? the horde that supports the worst instincts. Because one person can go, Neil, how could you say that? You get canceled. And then what happens is there's a crowd that comes in to like claim you.

And they're like, yes, Neil, yes, join us. All the things, yes. And you know how we feel about those people. And you're like, man, I just made a joke that some people didn't like. And they're like, no, but Neil, do only those jokes. And Shane, I don made a joke that some people didn't like and they're like no, but Neil do only those jokes Yeah, and Shane I don't know like how he did it as a human because that must have been really hard I think he shrugged it off. He just seemed to kind of go like I don't know how though

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You get in trouble from time to time, and I don't say that joking, but I'm saying how do you, how do you, how do you, what's your philosophy? So it's funny, Christiana and I were talking about this. We were literally talking about this. So like after the Tana Hase episode on the podcast, right? I had, you name it, I had people phoning me, everybody from everywhere. You know, so every, like you run the spectrum from friends, friends, close friends, going like, Trevor,

like how could you have that man on? And that is extremist and it's anti-Semitic and this is trash and why would you even sit there and listen to him and all the way through to strangers just being like, this is why you should be dead. I wish apartheid had killed you and blah, blah, blah. So you got my message. Go ahead.

And the two of you know me in those moments more than most people, right? And the first thing I do is listen. Because I go like, all right, tell me everything. Just tell me everything. You know? And so like a friend of mine would just be like, oh, he's like, you know, I can't believe you.

Why didn't you ask Tanhasi this? And why didn't you ask him that? And I responded and I said would just be like, oh, he's like, you know, I can't believe you. Why didn't you ask Tanhasi this? And why didn't you ask him that? And I responded and I said, I was like, hey, the same way if somebody's coming to talk about like their documentary about something that happened in Israel, I'm not gonna push them on everything about what's happening in Gaza,

because this is the part of the story that we're here to talk about. And it was interesting, like when I have those conversations, I just listen to what the person is saying, what they're feeling, and then I try and understand where we are missing each other, you know? So the one note, for instance, I said to a friend, one of my friends, he was like,

I hated the fact that you talked about Jewish people, and then you talked about Israel, and then you talked about Jewish people, but then you conflated the two. And I was like, oh yeah, actually you're right. Yeah, well that's when I'm curious about how much, cause I find that how much does your listening affect your judgment? Can you say something?

How big does, how big is the, how much growth is there? Go ahead. Cause to me, I, I always see Trevor as very like unflappable. Maybe that's like the Swiss German, like the veneer of like, no, he seems unflappable. Maybe that's like the Swiss German, like the veneer of like, no, he seems unflappable. So I was like, cause it was like the back actually was a bit weird. So I hit him up, but I think Trevor just heals quickly and better. I call him Wolverine. Like he like heals very quickly and better. Cause he takes a ton of steroids. No, maybe. I don't know. It's the shrooms, I think. But no, like I think he does feel

it. That's what I'm... No, I feel all of it. He feels everything. He's such a Pisces. I feel all of it. He feels everything. What do you do? Play FIFA? He's very sensitive. No, I am very sensitive and I feel all of it.

I wouldn't have... I'm like, but you don't... No, so... You don't see it. Okay. So there's a few things that have... You asked me this question and I realized there's a few things that have helped me understand this. And it's funny because I think, Neil, you'll have something similar but different because of your upbringing.

So first of all, I grew up in a house and in a country where there was a lot of violence, right? And so when I was a child watching this, I never once looked at it and went, yeah, this is right. I even talk to my mom and went, yeah, this is right. I even talk to my mom now and I go, why would you get so angry when you were hitting me? And she's like, because you wouldn't listen. I'm like, yeah, but why do you get angry though?

I was like, you know, you could have just like done it as like a, all right, kid, here comes your punishment. And then she would say, she's like, I was so frustrated. And I was like, I know I, you know, cut something open. I know I dismantled the TV. I know I burnt down a room. I know, whatever I did. But even me as a child, I would like, I know I cut something open. I know I dismantled the TV. I know I burnt down a room. Whatever I did. But even me as a child, I would go,

that was not ideal, but I'm not gonna lose my cool over this. And then I'd get my beating, and then I would cry and I'd feel it. I'd feel everything. But the thing that would stick with me is how it didn't make sense for people to lose their cool. And I talk to my friends about it,

and we have these big fights, but I go, every one of our parents, especially African parents, but I mean, I know how Neil grew up. Yo, parents were beating kids, and this was like a normal thing. And now we joke about it. You'd be like, oh, you pray there's no shoe around,

and you pray like Eddie Murphy had those jokes, and we all laughed about it. But I think I grew up watching this going, it doesn't seem to be ideal and it doesn't seem to get where I'm going. So maybe what I did a little too much was I internalize it. So I keep it in me. But then what I do is I, and that's where ADHD helps, I'm having six conversations now at the same time. So you're speaking to me and I'm listening to what you're saying. And then I'm sort of going to like one tree, which is like, okay, how do I agree with you? How do I disagree with you? What's happening here? What's not happening here? Do I connect with you? Do I not connect with you? Can I see your humanity? And I always go, if I see you as a person, which I do with

most human beings on the show, genuinely, I go like, I'll still find something to connect with you on. And so on the other side of it, when you asked me like, how much does it change me? I genuinely listened. So the person almost only has to tell me once and I will keep that because it means something. So when my friend said to me, my friend who's Jewish and spent time in Israel said, I didn't like that you said Jewish and Israel,

but you conflated the two. And I was like, ah, okay, I will never do that again. But then when it comes to like arguing about whether or not it's an apartheid state, I said, you are my friend and I love you, but we're not going to agree on this. And I don't think we need to agree on this to remain friends. In fact, as my friend, I hope that you'll still keep me in your life and I will work to keep you in my life. But I don't want to lose you because of this thing, because there's so many things that we're going to disagree on.

This is just one of the biggest ones, you know? And I don't know, you know, whether it's just this moment in time or social media, I don't know what it is, but I feel like people are, like people have less and less ability now to maintain friendships or to maintain connections that also hold a space of disagreement or confidence. It's the same thing. It's that thing about if I like, if I write ha ha to this text, you have this constituency in your head or imagined or whatever that I can't say disagree on this but love you the same, because then you'll

lose your constituency. Yeah, and you see, for me, I don't think that moves us forward, because I've always believed that people don't change by hanging out with people who are like them. I agree. I think we change by rubbing on each other. Just rubbing off on each other. And I think the common humanity, that's why I come back to stand up. I think of the comedians I used to meet in comedy clubs

and I still, till this day, I mean, everything racist, misogynistic, whatever you wanna call it, but they were also human beings, you know what I mean? And I'm not excusing any of the things they did. The same way, I'm sure someone wouldn't excuse some of the things I did or said as a person. You all have your faults. But the one thing that would connect us first and foremost

is that we were comedians. You remember we'd even say as comedians, you'd be like, man, have you seen that guy's new bit? You'd be like, it is the most racist bit you've ever seen. But God, it's funny. And holding that paradox, holding that cognitive dissonance, I think was key to us. And you would see, not all,

but you would see a lot of the comedians evolve over time because society would evolve and you would shift and you'd find a lot of the comedians who were doing the jokes they were doing back in the day wouldn't do them anymore and they would evolve slowly. My objection to this primarily is like it's fine when it's all like theoretical, we're working on jokes, that person's a bit racist, that person's a bit misogynistic. But we're living in a time where women currently can't get abortions in many states.

Completely within. So there's like real world implications of whether it's sexism, racism, transphobia. So I think it's difficult because these people in our lives that have unsavory views, it feels like they're winning. I feel like the world is shifting to the right. I feel like the world is a scarier place. And that's just true. You look at elections, you look at all of this stuff. And so it's harder for people to be like, well, I can see you as a whole human being when your vote is the reason that, like, I was terrified to do IVF in Texas.

Because I was like, well, I'm a woman with a history of loss. And if I need to get a DNC, will I be able to get one? Will a doctor give me one? Right? So there's like real-world implications for like these controversial right-wing or even like super far left ideas. And some people are like, I actually don't wanna be around that in my personal life.

And I don't blame them. Do you know what I mean? Like- Of course. That's I, in the two thoughts I had is, it's a bit like being friends with people, two people who don't get along. And you're like, ah, I was just with, you have lunch with somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you go meet with the enemy. And And you're like, ah, I was just with,

you have lunch with somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you go meet with the enemy. And then you're like, yeah, and you're like, am I a piece of garbage? Both of these people have been good to me. Yeah. And then the other thing I, the other thought I had was,

does two jokes lead to action? If you make a joke, does that mean you stand with that? And that's where comedy comes in, because it's like, do I? I don't know, I can make a joke about anything. I don't stand with it, it just, my brain made, did that construction and I was like, this might be fun. But if a comedian does their job properly

and the joke is good enough, you won't get in trouble. So I used to think that, but then I realized we've robbed the world of context. You know, and on one of the previous, one of our previous episodes here, when Yuval Noah was here, right? Talk, the author of Sapiens and the Nexus. He said something that really stuck with me and it was,

we are living in an age where we have more information than we've ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had in our lives. We have access to more information, but we don't have enough time to process it. And I think the problem with like comedy now, let's say, or jokes even, is there's no context anymore. Yeah. Then even when Twitter began, the first people who followed comedians on Twitter, people all agree that this was a place

where people are making jokes. They are not real things, right? And then the context spread, the algorithm moved things around. Now you're sitting at home, minding your own business. You are a super religious person, and then some video will come on your feed where someone's trashing religion, making jokes about it.

And you're like, you get angry, but there's no context. You didn't wanna see that. You didn't ask to see. And that's, I think that's like one of my key issues with social media is the fact that people are not asking to see, they're not opting in in any way. I feel like it should be like an opt in

as opposed to an opt out. But people are seeing videos that they don't want to see, videos that are like actively making them angrier, sadder, more afraid, etc. And I think that's actually hurting comedy and hurting the idea of comedy as opposed to it being or not being. Does that make sense? Yeah, but I also think that there's some things that people should be shamed. Listen, I like shame. I'm not like Bruno Grande. You do love shame. I love shame.

You love shame. I'm window. Do you know what I mean? And I'm just like... It's one of my kinks. Whether you're a comedian or whoever you are, I don't kink shame, Neil. I'm proud of you. So the one place he doesn't shame is kink. Okay. Shame, but no kinks.

But I'm just like, there's some things that if you... Either way, I have an erection. Go ahead. Okay, Neil. No, I'm just like, there's some things, if you say them, they could be consequences. Like, I know every time I say something, I'm just something I'm trying to teach my kids, something I've had to learn the hard way, is like, you say them, they could be consequences. I know every time I say something, I'm just trying to teach my kids something if I've had to learn the hard ways.

You say stuff, sometimes people get offended and there's going to be a backlash. So you're correct in that civil rights are a little wobbly in certain respects, right? But there's also people, there's a huge incentive to grievance. There's an incentive, the incentive to being in a conversation used to be, somebody would make a joke, you'd laugh, the incentive was to be agreeable and be open-minded. To join, yeah, in some way.

And now the incentive is to take offense and to be like, ah, this is a chance for me to get all my picket signs out and represent for my invisible constituents. I agree, but I think we're also in a time for a lot of people where they feel there's a lot to be aggrieved about. I agree. So we just have to acknowledge that people are constantly offended because the world

is very offensive. The issue I have with it is that, is the getting offended. It is you on the other side of getting offended. And I, okay, I say this from the, let's take comedy out of it for a moment. I think of language. So I speak many languages, as you know, Neil Brennan. And one of the things I love about speaking

multiple languages is the fact that you learn how offensive the same thing is in another culture, in another language. You didn't change anything. You moved your hand in a different way. You did a thumbs up in one country and they're like, what did you say about my father? And you're like, wait, what? You put your hand under your chin in one country and they're like, what are you saying about

my family? But Trevor, don't you adjust? No, no, no, listen. You adjust in different contexts, right? But that's because I've moved to places, right? We are no longer moving. So we now live in a world. So there's nine different languages But that's because I've moved to places, right? We are no longer moving. So we now live in a world. So there's nine different languages.

That's what I mean. So we're no longer moving. Before it made sense, I go to Dubai. When I'm in Dubai, I acknowledge I'm in the United Arab Emirates. I will respect the cultures and the laws accordingly. When I go to South Africa, I know my people. I will respect my people and I will work accordingly.

I do this everywhere in the world, but now I'm not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. You're at home tweeting your friend, tick-tocking your people. You're not going anywhere. And then it takes you where the people don't agree with you, but you didn't go there. That's what I'm trying to say. And so the problem with offense is that everything is offensive to everyone if there is no context. So you can literally say something, you could say to your own grandparent, you'd be like, how old are you granny? And they'd be like 93.

They're like, whoop, it's almost time. And your grandparent laughs, ha ha ha. You take that video, you put it on your own social media page for you and your few fans and your people. You might have 20 followers. For some reason, it sparks something. social media page for you and your few fans and your, you might have 20 followers. For some reason it sparks something. All of a sudden, there's a delusion of people

coming to you saying, how dare you? Do you know what ageism does to our culture? Elder abuse. You're discarding, I don't care that they laugh, they probably laugh because they're scared of you. And you're like, no, this is my grandparent. They taught me this humor. I'm laughing with them.

For instance, I've seen comedians, and you've seen this, I've seen comedians who have disabilities, deaf, blind, they have MS, cerebral palsy, whatever it is. They make a joke online. People don't know that they have that disability, and they just come off them. How could you? How dare you? Piece of trash.

And then their fans come in and go like, excuse me, they have the disability. And then people are like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, I'm so old. Well, that's so funny. And I'm like, excuse me, they have the disability. And the people are like, oh, I didn't know. Oh, I'm so old, well, that's so funny. And I'm like, what just changed? Nothing has changed. Your context and the way you saw the thing changed.

And so I do agree with you. Yes, words of consequences, yes, but I think we should never take for granted our participation in some of these ideas where we are choosing to get angry on some of it. We are choosing to take it and make it like, ah. Personally, I do this in my life with my friends, with my people.

I encourage people to just, it's almost like filtering. Focus on the things that you should actually be angry about because there's a lot of things that actually, it's like, oh, you just misinterpreted it. It's, you really just misinterpreted it. It's a different perspective, different language, different culture, different vibe, different story, and it actually doesn't spoil your life. We're gonna continue this conversation

right after this short break. I don't know what the solution to this is, but I still go back to my belief that the solution doesn't lie in people siloing themselves. I believe as Trevor, this person has no incentive and will never even shift a little bit if I'm not in their life, and I will never see their perspective if I'm not in their life. Trevor, you have that Kumbaya and Mandela stuff. Trevor you have that Kumbaya Mandela stuff. But it's not Kumbaya. You do, you do.

Get out of here. No, but it's something. You jive turkey. No, no, I'm saying okay Trevor hired me because I was on Twitter talking shit about The Daily Show. That's how we met. That's the type of person. No, that's not why you see the why was wrong. Wait, no, but you came across my tweets. You're like, oh, this person really disagrees

with what I'm doing in the Daily Show. He found me interesting, my mind. But I'm problemating you. He's the type of guy that we like see those tweets. You know what? You know what? I'm gonna hire that bitch. That is Trevor. Like he just is like... That's a direct quote. It's a direct quote.

But it's like even the way he has his writers room. And look at where we are now. You were part of helping me win an Emmy, you were part of helping make the show the best thing it's ever been. I'm like, I don't know how you hold that. It's something I really admire as someone who can be very tribal. Actually, politically, my friends are all over the map. Have you changed in any way?

That's what I'm curious about. I've changed my opinion about lots of stuff. No, he is influenced. And it's like, do I completely disregard that version? So can I just say something about both of you real quick? As your friend, both of you, I've seen both of you change because of me, and both of you have changed me because of you, because you're in my life.

Yeah, but I just. So, Christiana, I've watched you become funnier and looser as a person in the time that I've known you. Like, I've literally watched you. So, I like what you become funnier and looser as a person in the time that I've known you. Like I've literally watched you. So I like what you said, but like with the Twitter thing, yes, you were trash talking me and trash talking the Daily Show and everything. But more importantly, I saw somebody who was super smart,

really into like the way you saw the world and the way you like understood ideas and what you brought in and your journalistic brain. I was like, damn, this is amazing. I didn't. I wasn't hiring people on Twitter who were just like, Trevor Noah, you suck, go back to your country. I wasn't like, yeah, this person needs to come to the Daily Show. It's not about that.

I'm able to look- They already worked there, go ahead. I'm able to look at the thing that lies beneath how you respond to me. And I admire it. And so when I look at the thing that lies beneath how you respond to me. No, I admire it. I admire it. And so when I look at the two of you, you become funnier, more chill, more everything. Right, Neil, let me tell you something.

When I met Neil Brennan, so I'll take you on a little journey. When I met Neil Brennan for the very first time, I was on Twitter and this was the good old days of Twitter where people were just making jokes. There was nothing serious on it. It was just jokes. Before Christina came and made it was nothing serious on it. It was just jokes. Before Christina came and made it on Primal. And there was just jokes. And I remember Neil had really funny jokes on Twitter.

And I was like, this guy's funny. And I followed him and then it said co-creator of Chappelle Show. And I was like, wait, what? And I went in and I didn't, I hadn't even like watched the Chappelle Show in that way. I never had cable. I couldn't afford it. All these things. Substory, whatever. You know, copper roof. Yeah, couldn't afford it, all these things, sob story, whatever. Copper roof.

Yeah, you know how it is, you know how it is, whatever. Foreign crime. Yeah, yeah, tough life, let's keep it moving. But I then went and I watched the show and then I saw the first sketch, the Black White Supremacist, and then you're in the back there and your head explodes.

But then I started to reach, I was like, damn, this guy's funny and he's just been in everything that I love. So I follow him on Twitter, and now I just love his jokes. And then I come to America for the first time doing like random shows, and I meet him at the Comedy Store in Los Angeles. And I'm walking through the corridors there,

very dark, very like sad. Satanic energy. It really is. And I walked in, and I saw his face and I was like wait a minute Like Neil Brennan and he I was like, I know you he's like doesn't everyone Wait from another country. Yeah, it was very like it was very like I was like wow And and I was like what and I was like, yeah, I was like, hey, nice to meet you I was like, I love you. I follow you on Twitter blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah And Neil was like very dismissive Neil was like, hey, nice to meet you. I was like, I love you, I follow you on Twitter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And Neil was like, very dismissive. Neil was like, ah, okay, whatever, man. And like, just very like, you know, leaning against the wall, like, it's almost like a scene from Grease, but without the leather jacket. Just like leaning on the wall and just like, whatever kid, keep it moving.

And I walked in, I went to do my set or something. And then when I was walking out, Neil goes like, hey, wait a minute, where you from? Get back here. He's like, where you from? And I was like, I'm from South Africa, and he's like, are you the guy? He's like, you followed me.

I was like, yeah, I follow you. He's like, you're the reason I've got people, what did you say you said, you're the reason I've got people with exclamation marks in their names following me. That's what Neil said. Neil was like one day. Apostrophes.

Yeah, you said like one day I was on my Twitter. Clicks. And it was just like Brad and Jenny following me. And then the next day it was like. And I was like yeah. Terrifying. And I was like that's my friend, or Lisa probably, I told them about your tweets.

And that's how we meet. Neil was like, and I hope you don't mind me saying But like Neil was I mean you were Grumpy you were just like the world is like everything is bad. Yes energetically dark always just like everything is shit and God, what do you talk? No religion and just like and why are you smiling? He used to hate that I smiled He's like Neil Neil would even say to me sometimes like, what are you so happy about? I don't think I said, I may have energetically said it.

He said, no, he said it. He said, he said, what are you so happy about? In fact, in fact, he has a fun story. Neil, and I've told the story before, some way I'm sure, but maybe with you, but like Neil, I remember you and I were sitting in a random, it wasn't even a diner. I don't know what it was.

It was a diner. Yeah. It was a diner in Denver. Neil was doing the improv. I think I was doing the comedy work. Okay. The comedy works. So we're having a late, late, late dinner after this is like, you know,

the midnight type thing we've both done our shows and then never classic Neil with his cynicism, you know, Neil's like, how was your weekend? Did you make enough money to barely pay for your flights and your food? You idiot, you African fool. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, because we made no money. Basically, as a comedian, you were

lucky if you came home with a little money from the road. Yeah. You were just breaking even. That's barely, barely, barely. This is 12 years ago. This isn't like forever. Yeah, this is 12 years ago. And at some point, Neil turns to me and he goes,

what are you doing here? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, man, he's like, I've seen your life in South Africa. He's like, why are you doing this? He's like, go home. People love you. You told him to go back to Africa.

Yeah, you told me to go back to where I came from. And he's like, people love you there and you're doing arenas. He's like, here you are in a comedy club where people came in for free and they don't know you, they don't even like you. And he's like, why? He's like America, he's like America's not ready for,

what did you say? America's not ready for someone. Americans don't like foreign comedians. Yeah, you were like, Americans don't like foreign comedians. And then we went through a list and he wasn't wrong. He's like, this. Ricky DeVoe's the only one who made an impact. And they made a show, but they made Americans. Yeah, you were like, Americans don't like foreign comedians. And then we went through a list and he wasn't wrong. He's like, Ricky DeVoe is the only one who made an impact. And they made a show, but they made Americans.

And then Neil said this to me and we had this discussion back and forth for a while, back and forth for a while. And I was like, oh, and I took it in a good way. I was like, you know what, Neil? I was like, thank you. What wonderful, you're such a good friend. He's like, I don't even know if I'm your friend. We just do the same thing. But I always, and I've always seen this, you like, I don't even know if I'm your friend. We just, we just do the same thing.

But I always, and I've always seen this, you know, I've always said that I was always like, what a sweet, loving guy. I was like, this is a sweet, loving human being who has been hurt by something and someone in the world. And now he wears like a little shell on the outside. You saw him. Yeah, the same way I see you. The same way I see everyone, genuinely.

We see past all this, Christiana. To the real you. I don't like to be seen, by the way, so it's very uncomfortable. So I was like, this guy's a nice, because I think some, I meet people sometimes who are very nice and I go, this person is an asshole and I do not want to know them as a human being. They will burn your life down if they get the chance. And then I meet people who are prickly and I'm like, you, you're a good person. You know? You hide it.

I'd also like to say that once John Oliver made it, I called him. This was really funny. And said, okay, you can come back. No joke. I stand corrected. He literally phoned me and I was in South Africa. Yes. I go, all right, you can come back. Because there was no, it was kind of pointless. Yeah.

But my point is- When did he get sweeter? But this is what I'm saying. I got sweeter over time, especially in the last five years. What happened? I remember telling you about therapy and you were like, meh meh. You didn't tell me about therapy. No, I remember talking to you about therapy

and you were like, meh meh. Did you go to therapy? I've been going to therapy since I was 23. Yeah, but now you went into like- Once Trevor told me about it. No, like, ma-ma. Did you go to therapy? I've been going to therapy since I was 23. Yeah, but now you went into like... Once Trevor told me about it. No, you know what I mean. You opened your heart, Neil. I opened my heart from Iowa Skin DMT and MDMA. I'm sorry. I don't know how... Who did you tell about religion? Who did you call when you said like,

I now believe there might be a God? You were one of the first people I believe I called. Really? Yep. So, because I called. Really? Yep. Cause I knew he'd like it. But you know what Trevor, back to you, cause Trevor don't like- But you see he cared-

Trevor doesn't like to speak about himself. He even cared that I would like it. I remember what people are into. I was like, who are my god people? Which is a nice, that's what I mean. And I genuinely mean- Yeah, I never was a jerk. I seemed jerky but was kind.

That's my point. But Trevor, the thing about you, because you don't like talking about yourself, but I want to make it about you, that I find remarkable, and I'm still learning, is that you, and I think it shows in your fans, in your life, you're able to have like this big tent where loads of different people can come in,

and you never feel uncomfortable. Like, you could just live in difference and tension, and maybe that's because of your childhood. Yeah, it's because of my childhood. But in a way that I'm still not there yet. Oh yeah, but you were lucky. You grew up, like, first of all, you're Nigerian, so you've always had, like, your people. And then also, like, your family and your... I've grown up as a singular. You know what

I mean? I was and still am the only person in my family who even looks like me. Obviously, you can find features in my parents. You'll be, oh, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, my mother's a different color to me, my father's a different color to me. We look, we are different people. And in the family, I'm a different person and you get what I'm saying. So I... Does that make you feel lonely or you just... No, it was the opposite, funny enough.

It didn't make me feel lonely because I don't spend all the time looking at myself, which is great. It's interesting that you say like you, or maybe you said it like, that you, because you are like kind of tribalist, in terms of nobody looks like you. Yeah, no. So the whole, everyone's your tribe.

You could take it as a prescription to be lonely. Or you take it as like, oh, all right, well, I guess I'm everybody. Yeah, no, I was always just like, huh, you know. Because it was the only way I was, and I think most importantly, my tight nucleus treated me as the inn. So it's not like my cousins treated me strange,

not my grandmother, my mother, my, nobody in my circle, I was Trevor. Fully, fully just Trevor. And then, because I understand other people's languages, I would find a way to get in quickly. And then my friends very quickly, I mean, till this day, you all know my friends, but they just treat me like me.

So I don't even look down and be like, whoa, my skin is different to theirs. No, I don't do that. And so let me ask you this. Why do you think, I'd love to know, why do you think as Neil, you were always more comfortable and more honest in black spaces than most white people? I never, I just never been that racist. I love that you say that.

No, cause everybody's racist. It's just like, it's just a matter of degree. So I've just never been that racist. I had access because one of my brothers who worked at the Wrigley Field, all of his coworkers were black. They were always so nice to me. Eddie, Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, Arsenio.

I mean, this is like a creepy story. I'm like nine, right? Nine years old, I used to have to, Eddie's on Saturday Night Live, I used to have to run, my parents would get home, I used to have to run upstairs to hide that I wasn't watching it, right? Cause they were, they'd get home, I'm nine,

I'm supposed to be in bed. At a certain point, I say to my mom, hey, you need to let me watch Saturday Night Live, it's important. I remember being nine and mom, hey, you need to let me watch Saturday Night Live, it's important. I remember being nine and going, what are you talking about? It's important. Again, it's not even like, I'm so saintly,

it's just like, it's stupid, it's just like. It's illogical. It's illogical, it's like, you and I immediately like, I was like, oh, I think I know what you're like. I don't care about, I don't care about your anything. It's like, I know what you're like, you're fucking, you're a very opinionated person. Like, okay, I'll see you at the next argument.

Like, there's no, so it's just, it's not, I don't know, I just never really bought that into it in terms of... Like a social construction. You weren't like, you just were like, this is the person. Yeah, I don't know, it's also just access. Most of sexism, racism, it's just all these separations that we deal with. It's like, if I was in your experience,

what conclusions would I come to? If I was in your experience, what conclusions would I come to? If I was in yours, what conclusions would I come to? It's assuming that people are coming to conclusions for the same logic that I come to conclusions about. And not, if I were black, I'd be, I'm mad as a white person. So imagine what I'd be like as a white person.

And if I was a white man, I'd be so fucking rich. You can imagine. I'd be like, I say to my husband all the time, man, if they made me look like one of your friends, I'd be killing it right now. Yeah, so like, I don't. I'm sensing a movie here, guys. Yeah.

But he wanted to be a black woman. Someone dropped. She wanted to be a white man. Someone dropped one. She wanted to be a white man. Someone dropped one of these lights on our heads. They met at a podcast. Yeah, so I think it's just theory of mind. It's like, what would it, I don't know. It's just assuming that someone's gonna think

the same things you would think, but if you were in that situation. So you see, I come back to what I was saying now about sharing space with people. I listened to your story and just listening to what you said. Because of your brother, you went to a place where all of his coworkers were black at Wrigley Field. You're now associating and seeing black people

in their fullness, in their completeness. It is a lot harder to be racist to black people when you know black persons. It's a lot harder. Cause you're like, no, I know, I know Dave and I know Steve and I know Daquan and I know like, I know, I know people. I know some are like this.

I know some are not like this. I know, do you get what I'm saying? You then go, you now you're also in comedy. Then you're in Chappelle show. Again, now you're experiencing black people from all different walks of life. You'd everyone from most deaf and Taliq. I also think it's good personal experiences,

meaning like Dave was, I don't know, we just got along. We were like close, we were like in, and this is exactly. Close at the same age, 18, 19. He was nice, he gave me an opportunity to write a happy poem with him. A lot of this is like, I feel it is like recompense

for the opportunities that I've been given by Dave specifically. And, uh, and then I give, I take, I give like black people all credit for that. A bunch of meaning like, okay, I'll try to hire as many black people as I can. Cause I can't, cause white person hired me. Yeah. I kind of have to, to, morally I have to. If I believe in any sort of moral framework, I have to try to not be that racist.

When you became more spiritual, I'd love to know, like you and I, many years ago, on the Daily Show we talked about depression and how it affects people differently. And this is before I knew I had ADHD. And then I was like, oh, mine's not like depression. It's just a byproduct of ADHD at times. I wanna know from you,

what do you think some of the biggest blocks were to you figuring it out? You know, in one special, you're joking about wearing a device on your arm that electrocutes you to remind you to smile and seem more affable. This is a real thing. Yes.

And then it zaps me and I smile. That's the cover art on Netflix, is me fake smiling from being zapped. Yeah. But then now, you smile more as a person. You just generally... What do you think was the and it's not the? Let's start with the thing that you did But tell me what you discovered that shifted you out from under the cloud. It's the I mean, it's it's it's very dangerous

ayahuasca 5 me o DMT and then MDMA it's I wouldn't recommend it because it's like it And then MDMA. It's, I wouldn't recommend it because it's like it, the five MEO DMT, I like kind of lost my mind for a couple of days. Uh, but I, those in, in sequentially, that's how I did them. That's, and they worked for me. Did you do under guidance or just like, I mean, I mean, not, yeah, there's like a person there, but like they don't, they don't,

they're not, there's like, there are tribes on the Amazon who have a lot of experience in hundreds, thousands of years of sort of how to deal with certain things. And then there's people that I dealt with that they mean well. No, no, I'm curious, right? Because anytime I see you, you're working. I've never seen you like in a, cause you don't wanna hang out with black women, obviously. So like, I've never seen you socially.

So like, no, I'm curious. What does your depression look like? Cause like, you know, there's always this image of like, in bed, I can't work, I don't shower. I was never, well, I was always trying to, I tried to work my way out of it. Okay, so that's I was always trying to, I tried to work my way out of it. Okay, so that's why you're always working. I tried to achieve my way out of it.

Okay. Yeah, like if I could get an achievement, which I think we've talked about before, it's like you get an achievement, you get a kind of a adrenaline spike that you take for good feeling, or you get an ego boost, which you take for good feeling. And then you kind of just like, ah, and then it wears off. You're like, I gotta do something else.

And that's what they call a career. Okay. So, but yeah, so I did all that stuff. It's more a matter of changing my relationship to the facts of my life. Meaning I'm incredibly lucky. I used to think I was unlucky. Yeah, you did. That's crazy.

I really thought I was unlucky. I really thought I was like reason for grievance. And then I realized like, no, now I have a new idea, which is like, life isn't fair. No one's life should be as good as mine. Like I was dead wrong about what I thought was happening. Even the things that I thought were negative were positive. And it is like a-

Everything was your friend. It's all been good. And it's all been to my favor, even if it's in the, I sent you that thing the other day about, it's a Buddhist story about like, yeah, you never know. You never know what something means. Spell show ends. I'm like, hmm. I never would be a comedian if it didn't end.

All these things that I think were negative were positive, just in a different timeframe. So that's the biggest takeaway, is that like changing my relationship to the facts of my life. And I do a thing where I literally write the facts of my life down several times a day. Oh wow.

Like journal that. Yeah, but I call it a checklist to make it masculine. Because journal. But I call it like a checklist of like the facts of my life. Like you are this, you are this, you are this, you are this, you've got to do this, you got to do this. Like this is incredible. Just enjoy yourself.

I think that's a good advice for anything. It's like, I can stay mad all the time in this situation, or I can take this as an opportunity for whatever. And so for me, it goes back to what we were saying about offense. It lives in the same world. I think in everything I'm hearing you saying, the facts didn't change, you know, your house, your car, your life, your job, your friends, your, your opportunities,

that didn't change your relation to them. Change your relationship to them changed. And that's what I think about funny enough with genuinely how we see the world a lot of the time, with its, you know, things online that offend us, people that make us angry, stories. A lot of the time, it's just your relationship to it is acknowledging the fact is it has happened or you're seeing it. But now what is my relationship to it?

And just shifting that lets you off the hook from feeling like you're wearing a weighted vest. That's what I hear you say. That shift is so hard though. Oh, it's incredibly hard. I think that. But even like being a mom, I'm sure, is like really tries your patience. Yeah, yeah.

And you could occupy that space of like just being aggravated all the time, which I think a lot of parents did for a long time. Or you can just be like, I'm gonna feel this way and I have to figure out how to deal with it. Yeah, I mean, I just like surrender. Yeah, that's the, yeah.

Then my girlfriend says that all the time. She's like, it's the most Zen thing in the world. It's just like, I have a four year old, they're gonna be four. Yeah. Until he's five. And then they're gonna be four. Yeah. Until he's five. And then they're gonna be five. Which is another thing.

Yeah, so yeah, which is his own and just like the surrender and the acceptance of like this is what it is. I can either look at it and be, have my fist balled up all the time or I can just be like, okay, this is a guy, I'm here. I'm here, I might as well enjoy it. Which is the corniest, tritist.

Which is scary when you say it's hard. I know. I like to strive, I love striving. But I think life is a balance between the two. I think if we live only in the moment, we neglect. Yeah, people that live in the moment, it should be noted, are incredibly boring to speak to. I think it's about finding a balance. That's hard.

And it's almost, yeah. Holding those two ideas in concert. It's almost impossible because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through, and sometimes you're not choosing it actively, but that's how I understand as Neil Brennan- A bunch of stuff was falling on me, and then I just tried to make it fall on me

in a different way. Yeah, I love that. And that like, yeah. And I'm incredibly lucky. I would argue most people hearing this are incredibly lucky in that like, you probably have enough money, all the things. The infrastructure that is in place for you to have.

Spotify, have Spotify. Oh, oh, anyway you get your podcast. is in place for you to have Spotify Anyway you get your podcast Fantastic your Neil this was um Every time I speak to you. It's a joy, but this was this was extra special. Thank you for joining us Which if someone has to watch one of your specials now, which one do you want them to watch? I'd say watch Crazy Good. Crazy Good? It's the most recent one, yeah.

Alright. It's kind of the most timely joke. Well for me, I think of it like Star Wars. Go watch the trilogy. Yes. If you watch three mics and you watch blocks and then you watch Crazy Good, you will know this Neil Brennan and you will see the full evolution. Yeah, you will see an evolution in my, yeah.

So different. Because the last time I saw you was before Trevor quit the show. Three years, I haven't met this Neil and it's good, good vibes. You know, you got that dad energy in a good way. I can tell he's with a four year old. No, I can tell he's with a four year old. Because you're like, being with a four year old kind of does something to you. And you're like, yeah, I just fight with him.

Who is this Neil? He likes to fight. Yeah. I fight children. We'll save that for another episode. Neil, thank you so much. Thank you, Neil. Thanks for having episode. Neil, thank you so much. Thank you, Neil.

Thanks for having me. Bye. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?