What Now? with Trevor Noah - LL Cool J: Four Decades of Relevance

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

What does it actually take to stay relevant for four decades without losing your soul? Before he was a hip-hop icon, LL Cool J was just a kid riding mini bikes and dreaming big. Decades later, he joins Trevor and Eugene to reflect on the wild journey—sharing unforgettable encounters with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson, the family values that kept him grounded, and why true reinvention requires dropping your ego. Plus, LL breaks down why intuition is God’s voice, why cynicism is just cowardice in disguise, and how he turned his grandfather’s belief into his legendary debut album, Radio. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The name, Ladies Love Cool James. Man, that was just wishful thinking, man. I just wanted them to love me, bro. I told you. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad? Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but, you know, that was the vibe. That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones. Yeah.

I mean, think about a great cigar. You look at my career. Imagine if I put the energy in the other way. Yeah. The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place. Yeah. Saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love, and you're not afraid to say it, is the most fearless.

Fearless and courageous thing, right? You know? Because, like, my thing was, I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Man, there are a few people that have more of an illustrious career than you. Oh, wow. You know what's actually interesting is it actually makes it a little, intimidating because you as a human being are interesting enough.

You know what I'm saying? Thank you for that. Like that's like the biggest reason I'd want to hang out with you and we want to hang with you and talk to you and, you know, just like figure out how you think, why you think, get inspired, just break things down together. But the body of work that comes with it, you're like, man, do not take for granted. It's like one of the only artists to have like back-to-back multi-platinum selling albums. You know, like you have somebody who has defined a genre.

That, to me, still, like, blows my mind. And we'll talk about it. But, like, defined a genre. You know what I mean? Not even a pioneer. Not like, oh, yeah, no, no, no, define something. And then has gone on to redefine every single element of what they do, where they do it, how they do it. Thank you, man.

He's just like, damn. Yeah. L.L. Cool J. The other thing that he's defined very well, you defied it, eh? Defied it. Defied it. Was age. Oh.

You were like, that thing is not coming to my house. Stay away, please. In the window with the sniper rifle. Like, get back. Nah, nah. Yo, you know what? We do the best we can, right? You know what I mean?

Just stay in the gym and hope for the fingers crossed, bro. That's all we could do, right? You've just beat that guy. Well, from your mouth, the gods is. No, 100%. So I was thinking before we came here, I was like, okay. You know, like, if someone is in the army, they become a general. Yeah.

You have to call them general forever. Yeah, yeah. If they're a president, they're still president forever. So with you, is it LL, cool J? Or is it cool? Or is it J? Or is it L.L. So, well.

And actually, who gets to call you Todd? There we go. That's funny. So, you know, actually, you know, whenever I'm on set or, you know, just in, like, around situations like this, I like people to call me Todd. Because I feel, sometimes I feel like when I know people and if they call me LL, I feel like, you know,

like I'm pulling out my Wikipedia for them or something. It's like, you know? Right, right, right. So, Todd is like, like, like, if we're at a conference or we're hanging out, I prefer you call me Todd. Yes, yeah. Right? I don't really, honestly, I don't really take,

I take the art seriously, but I don't really look at accolades and I don't walk around with those stripes like that. Like, I don't think about that. I don't spend my life thinking about that. I'm thinking about what we can do great, where we can have some fun, what we can create, you know, where we could create some magic, you know, what we're doing

wrong that we can get better at. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm with you. I think about things that way. I don't really, just like you, you're very successful. You know, you just don't go around thinking about your accomplishments. You think about what's next and what you could do, at least for me. Yeah, but I think, I love Eugene's question because there are certain names that become

more than just how you refer to the person. They become an idea. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? I understand. And then that name comes with like a familiarity. It comes with an idea behind it. So it says a lot about you as a person that you go on set at a conference in a space where I'm with familiar people or even like intimate people.

I prefer Tard because I want them to not think of my Wikipedia. You see, that already puts you in a completely different world because most people work their entire lives to make sure that everyone in their life. to make sure that everyone in their lives always knows about their work. And you're trying to do the opposite. Yeah, you know, and it goes back, I guess out of the three, I would want it to be cool. You know what I'm saying?

You know, I would want it to be that, you know, for the right reasons. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, there comes a time when you've got to let your accomplishments speak for themselves. So, you know, like even like with my music when I was making music consistently,

I would say the most, outlandish, most cocky, most arrogant thing you can think of on the song. But when we press stop on the song or when we, you know, when we stop it, it stays on the song. You know what I mean? You didn't let that hype or that idea follow you beyond the recording. No. No. No. Because it's you know, arrogance can be boring. Not necessarily for the people watching, but for the arrogant person because they're just running around just not learning anything, not seeing anything, not really having any true authentic experiences because they're so arrogant that their windows are shut.

They're not letting the curtains are drawn. They're not letting no sunshine in. They're not letting any light in. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. That's amazing. Arrogance can be boring. I've genuinely never heard anyone say that. And to the person who's arrogant.

No, no, no, that's what I mean. Arrogens can be boring because you're walking around thinking you figured it out so you don't open yourself up to anything that might come in. When I was trying to think about, like, how we even, like, contextualize you as a human being. So many people know you. Some people know you through only one facet of your life. I found myself wondering.

I was like, for somebody who has been, like, famous, famous, from the age of what, 15, 16? Yeah, 16. 16 years old. Like, I mean, famous, famous. If you were in a world where nobody, knew you. Cape Verde.

No one knows anyone. Where, where, where? Cape Bird. That's hilarious. What, Cape Bird? No, they know you in Cape Bird. I'm going to say, I'm going to go out of Cool J and Cape Bird. Where's Cape Bird?

It's seven islands off the coast of Africa and Portugal. I'm going. Right there. We can bet money they know him. Because he's done too much. They do. Because it's like, okay. They'll know him from a movie.

I actually, you know, I'm okay with that. That's just room to grow, actually, you know. Yeah, but how would you introduce yourself in that world? Like, how would you give somebody a quick introduction into who you are and how you became that way? Yeah, like, when you think of your life, when you go like, oh, this is what, because most people would put it down to your rap career. You know, some people would put it down to your formative life experiences.

Some people might put it down to your success. But when you think of your life, where do you look back and go to like, oh, man, that moment there, that's the beginning of this human being that you all meet today? Well, I think at the end of the day is the software that we're programmed, right? We are all biological hardware. Our mother gives birth to us.

We are biological hardware. And then how we're programmed through our upbringing is when the software and the programs are uploaded, right? And unfortunately, some of us get spammed out early. Some of us get viruses. It get nasty work. It gives me some nasty work

in that programming. You know what I mean? But it's that programming. And so the first programming I got from my grandmother and my mother was, if a task is once begun, never leave it till it's done. Be thy labor, great or small, do it well or not at all. And so from day one, I had been thinking about things in that context. You know, I never, you know, I just, I'm a big believer that you can make your dreams

of reality, you know. I sincerely believe that. And I don't, you know, I consider. consistently look to conquer myself. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense, actually. You know?

No, no, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. That's a fascinating way to look at it. Because you know what I love about anyone who tells a story, like that you say, about their software developer, their mom or their dad, or whoever it was who, like, programmed them? It always seems to me like the best programmers are the people in our lives who know how to give us the correct information for us, not for anyone.

Yes. Absolutely. Because what you just said is powerful, but it seemed like it really worked for you. That is, you know what? That's a very, very astute. That's a real sharp insight because everything don't work for everybody, right? For me, I just happened to be a little kid who liked hanging around their grandparents and actually listened to their parents, listen to their mother, listen to what my grandma.

I actually listened to them. I thought what they were saying made sense. you're a unique kid You know what I mean Which is really crazy The only time I didn't listen Is when there was time When my mother

My grandmother said to me You either Because I had made my first song Right And my grandmother said You either go to school Or you gotta get out And that's

Oh you what? Or you put your shirt on Yeah yeah yeah First of all You got jewelry on Put a shirt on Yeah Yeah

Grandma definitely wanted me To put my shirt on You did? Yeah Whatever you do Don't pierce your name You know what I mean? Whatever you do, please.

Again. Again. Don't ever pierce your nipples again. You know what I mean? Oh, man. So yeah, that was the thing, right? It's like, that was the only moment. You know, that was the only moment when I was like,

no, I got to do this. And I went after my dream. But other than that, I always listen. So, you know, it's, choices are deep. Joyce is a deep, you know. You, I mean, what you guys have accomplished, you know, globally, you, you know, you came from your country and came all the way around the world,

and you came to America, conquered America. Like, that's a big deal, but that had to start somewhere. That had to start somewhere. Like, that spirit, that determination, because you had to scrap, you know, make your way out of your country, go through that whole process, and then arrive here and you're in the corner of a room again,

and work your way back to the center, then go to the next floor, and you're in the corner of the room again. You've got to work your way back to the center. So that's pretty, so you get it. That journey. It's the thing is, the question is, the question is, can you deal with difficulty and friction, right?

Like, it's like, I always tell people in order to really be successful, especially in the arts. Yeah. And you have to have rhino skin and a, baby's heart. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Rhino skin and a baby's heart. You know, I find, I find it I can always tell people who are raised by females, who are raised by mothers, grandmothers, aunts. Women who raise you will always instill in you some level of honesty that you will never get out of a friend or of a male. You know what, though? My grandfather was there for me. Yeah.

I had a man in my life as well as women. I had balance. But the thing is, what the honesty thing you're talking about is true. It's like, you know, people need to tell you, you know, what it is. Like, my grandmother would always say to me, like, if they felt, like, my grandfather would be like, oh, you're swaggering, you, your shoulder, you're swaggering, right? And I'd be, you know, I'd be a little kid. What are you going to do when you're 16?

You're swaggering. Right? And then my grandmother would be like, you know, I'm walking around here like your little law Fauntleroy and all this, you know, you think your little Lord Puntleroy, you know, it's like I had a very wow because my grandfather. He was a jazz musician. He was a jazz musician. He came from Barbese.

Right, right, right, right. Right, right. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, so, so I had a Caribbean household with a Southern American, African American household. Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, okay. Yeah, so that kind of, it was a different type of upbringing. Yeah, no, that's completely different.

That island vibe, like the way like Barbados, you know, my friends from Barbados, Trinidad, etc., it's just like a different relationship, especially intergenerational I find. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, depending on where you're from in the world, some cultures, you know, I find the relationship between generations is a lot more strict and closed off. Yes.

And then with some island cultures, it's a lot more like integrated and inclusive. It's people spending more time across generations together. Definitely. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So I'm, you know, eight years old and I'm with my grandparents hanging out

without they're having company. There you go. All right. You see what I'm saying? So I'm sitting around hearing like, you know, my grandfather's sitting there with the bourbon and the peanuts. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just, you know, it's...

Swaggering. Swaggering, you know. Take a knock to steam out here and all that old. You know. What kind of kid were you like at that... Were you a talkative kid? Where you were, you know... Because I don't know if I'm reading this right.

You know, I've met you a handful of times. You know, we've met each other at the Grammys, where you've been very kind to me and, like, you know, just like, I've always seen you as like a... It's weird to say this, but like, there's people I look at who are like big brothers in the roles that I've been lucky enough to occupy. Does that make sense?

It does. You know, so in many ways, like, John Oliver was always, like, a big brother in TV for me because it was, like, he was the other foreign guy

who came and did this thing. Right, right, right. And then he, like, looked upon me, like, in, like, a really loving way, which I always appreciated. You did the same thing for me

with the Grammys. Like, every time I would see you there. Yeah, man, this guy would, because, like, the Grammys is, yo, man, it's a big lift. Hoo! It's a heavy lift.

Think about it. You, if you mess up, you are screwing up, forget yourself. there's that part already you're an idiot you're a loser you've messed up everything

right that's you but think of what the night means to everybody else yeah if you yeah if you screw up the night then you become

the thing that people remember on a night when all they wanted to remember was their moment and their accomplishment so the weirdest thing about it is you're trying to make the night

not about you but you have to facilitate the night so all of that is on you you're doing this thing, you know, you're trying to get into it. The room is filled with every luminary you can imagine. So you're starstruck and you're in all. And you take, this is something a lot of people take for granted.

I didn't realize this. Many of the people you look up to that you think know each other have never met. 100%. You'll be shocked at how many A-list actors, greatest musicians, or meet for the first time at some of these events. No way. Absolutely. Absolutely.

You'll be shocked. Absolutely. Everything is happening in this room. Everything is happening in the front of the world. And then you get this man who'll just come up to you, gave me a big bear hug and he's like, you got this man. He was like, yo, just do it. But he just like.

Yeah, but then the other thing you gave me, maybe I'm totally wrong in saying this. It's like you seem like the most outgoing and yet shy person I know. Yeah, you know, you're not wrong. I think that's, I think you're not wrong. I'm like, I'm an introvert. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay.

That's what I'm picking up. I'm an introvert. You know what I'm saying? So I love people and, you know, I'm comfortable around people, but, you know, I'm probably even more comfortable in a room with 2,000 books and a chair. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? That's like the outside doesn't know what recharges you.

No. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. But I don't mind it. Like I love people. I'm vibing. Everything's good. It's good energy.

But, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I will disappear. Like, where did he go?

Yeah, there is a where did he go factor. It's definitely a where did he go factor with me. Where is he? Oh, man. That's the longevity. That's why he's young. Dundeele Records, man. Sounds very familiar.

Yeah, we just... Are you like that? We like that. Yeah, we're completely like that. Okay, got it. We are 100% like that. Yeah, man. So you can, maybe that's what it is.

I can pick it up in somebody else where I go, this person is not necessarily needing me or anyone to engage with them. They're cordial, they're interested, they're curious, they will engage, they're warm. However, they do not need to fill space with noise. There you go. There you go.

They're comfortable in silence as well. You know those people who sit at a table with you and then just feel like because of this silence, they have to be like, so, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. L-L. L-L. Do they still love him?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, boy, here we go. Why are you looking at me like that? Because for a moment, I believe that you were that guy. But you know those people. I believe it. You know those people.

Yeah, I know that. And I understand it. 100%. Because some people are, they made uncomfortable by it. But I think it comes, it also comes partially with like being a watcher. 100%. Well, you know, I think the world is, I think, yeah, you got a know yourself, but the world is really an interesting place and people are very interesting.

People are very interesting. I mean, you could just watch somebody, a lady walking with a bike with a coffee and like they just, yo, if you just watch people, a dude walking with a cell phone, I was watching people when I came over here today. Yeah. Dude walking with a cell phone. He looks so suspicious and like, I'm like, we're just going to a secret agent. My only thing is watching, is watching joggers as well. Yo, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah, everyone jogs differently for a different purpose, at a different speed. 100%. Some of them look like they're in. need to jog. Some of them look like they've been jogging for a while. Some of them look like

they shouldn't be jogging at all. You said one dude walking, he looked like he was so uncomfortable with hot outside. I said, look at him. I said, he's so uncomfortable. He looked like he's under duress right now. I was like, I was like, yeah, I was like, yeah, no question. No question. You know what I think of in moments like that? You know what I think of in moments like that. You know, in all of psychology, in all of self-help, in all these worlds, they'll always say to you,

hey, don't worry about what's happening or what people think. No one cares. No one's looking at you. And then this person's like, yeah, and then this person goes outside for a walk. And not only someone looking at them, but someone looking at them is LL Gouj. Yo, you never know who's watching.

Yo, that is facts. You never know who's watching. You know, that is the craziest part. Yo, that is so, you're so right about that? That's the thing. You know how crazy that is? Just think about that for a moment. I'm just sitting there like, look at him.

He's uncomfortable. I'm like, look at him. Look at him. You know what I mean? Oh, man. Like I seen this woman backing up from this guy and I could tell she was like getting him to do something he didn't want to do. You know, he was.

Yeah, you're really, no, you're like, you're a full on observer. Yeah, I was people watching his. amazing. It's peeping it. People watching is amazing. But that, okay, that explains a lot of like your music then. You know, one of the mistakes I've seen a lot of people make, and maybe I'm being presumptive in assuming that this is a mistake, two things I've noticed.

One, this applies to you, and I think to a lot of hip-hop artists in general, there's an obsession on longevity in a way that I don't see applied to other genres. That's the first thing. And I found myself wondering, like, what? why that is. Let me explain. So let's say there's been somebody who's been in rock and they've been playing rock music

since they were 30 years old. We meet the, or 20 even, we meet them when they're like 60. Only when they get into the latter years, I mean the real latter years, will people be like the staying power of Mick Jagger and the guy's longevity and the Beatles and Paul McCartney, etc.

Right? Yeah, exactly. But I found like with hip hop artists at 40-something already, people are like, man, your longevity, your staying power. It's 40. Wow, I've always wanted, what do you think that's about? Well, I think, I think the reality is that the difference is that, like, it's kind of like being around the founding fathers of a country. You know, it's like, if you, you're, like, born when George Washington was born and 60 years later, he'd be like, wow, America's been here for a while.

You know what I mean? Like, you're like, so it's a new genre. I think because the genre itself is so young, it's only 50-some years old itself as a genre. So I think people... Yeah, I've never thought of it that way. People kind of... That has a lot to do with it.

And also, we've never went through the cycle. See, a lot of jazz, rock and roll, they've went through the cycle of seeing artists be young and grow older in the music within it. Where's the hip-hop? This is the first time. Yeah, this is the first time that this is happening, so it's new for everybody.

Washington is still alive. Yeah. In that, yes, exactly. In that sense, yes. Or you name the ancient person or person in history. I've never thought of that. Yeah. So you're walking around and it's like, oh, there's Grandmaster Flash.

Oh, there's DJ Cool Hurd. Oh, you know, there's the feel is four. Oh, there's Run DMC. Oh, there's L.O. Cool Jack. It's like we're here. There's Fab Five Freddy. We're here. You see what I'm saying?

So it's a little different, I think, because of that. Now, some people kind of obsess over, like, appropriate age to make hip hop and all that. But I think the majority of time when you hear people obsessing over that, that's just fear talking. In what way? I think that they just fearful that they won't be able to do something impactful. So they start calling sour grapes on the idea of making something hot. at a certain age. It's like, no, you just got a challenge in front of you.

It's possible. You just got a challenge. Just own it. Just own it. Don't say that it's not appropriate to be hot at a certain age now because you really just afraid you can't do it anymore. Because your fans are still around. Yeah.

You are around. Your fans didn't evaporize. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't evaporate. They didn't diso. So you can still make something for your fans. Now, if you're, if you, you know, are trying to make, you know, whatever you want to make. But if you're trying to appeal to 11-year-olds, you might have a problem.

But, but even then, you can put a Michael Jackson video on right now and a little kid will walk by and go, it's funny you say that. This is the biggest argument I've been having with my friends recently. About 11-year-old. Don't do that. But second of all. Yeah, yeah, this guy here, he got here, he's just, yeah. No, there was no argument, bro.

Okay. I'll jump in on that. There was no argument. As a matter of fact, there was guns being loaded. So, you know what, you know what it is? So, off the, you know, obviously because of the Michael movie, right? Everyone's back in. The music is, it's seen a new lease on life.

In a different way, a new injection, a new vibe. And I've noticed so many people being like, oh, wow, kids love the music. I didn't realize that they would love the movement. My kids are, and I was going, there's this, there's this idea in art that I butt up against. And it's this idea that people need to change their art to match the audience that they think exists now. And I argue, great art stays great art. Great food stays great food. Absolutely. Great, like, great stays great. Absolutely. The only difference is, how do you tell the story differently to the person? Does this makes sense? So when I think of like, let's use food as a simple example, right? Someone will go,

oh, restaurants are dying. Young people don't go to restaurants anymore. They don't care for the food. Then I'm like, no, that's not true. It's not that they don't care for the food. They don't care for the experience that the food was packaged in. Right. Right. Oh, the tablecloth. That's strong. The way you have to dress. The institution that contained the food does not appeal to them. But the food, you know how you know this? Because that same chef will go open a food truck, put it in a neighborhood that's cool and young. The kids will flock there. They'll wait in line for hours. It'll be on TikTok. And you go, this is the same chef. They don't even care how much they're paying. Exactly. They'll be like, but this chef at that restaurant, they go, have you been to his restaurant?

They're like, we didn't even know he has a restaurant. We just know the food truck. And that's when you realize it's not about changing the arts to the audience. It's just about understanding the institution that you've, that you've lifted. Yeah. And that's something I've noticed just you do consistently. Two things. One, you're not afraid to relearn. I mean, you talked about this, you know, with Q-Tip, for instance, is like, you said something that I've only heard one other, like, great,

and I mean like a goat say. And there was Tiger Woods when he said he had to relearn his swing. And I remember hearing that going, what do you mean you have to relearn? You can't learn your Tiger Woods. And he talked about having to relearn his swing. You're one of the only other people I've heard talk about that. You said you had to relearn how to rap. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, language change, changes, technique, people get more proficient in certain techniques.

Things evolve. Right, right? So, like, I put it to you like this. If a young basketball player can be inspired by an older basketball player. or a current basketball player and add some of those moves to their repertoire, right? Which is what they all do. Which is what they all do.

Then why can't a current basketball player go to the playground or go to the videotape and see something and incorporate some of those new things into his repertoire? Arrogance and fear. There you go. There you go. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, arrogance and fear. Yeah, and see, the thing is, see, people can, you can't confuse a desire to improve with a lack of confidence. Don't conflate those two ideas. You can't conflate those two ideas. You know what I mean? Lack of design if you had to learn. Yeah.

Whatever you got, you said what? Lack of desire and if you had to learn. Yeah, if you got to learn, you got to learn. What did you say? Lack of desire. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You got to have that desire and you have to want to learn.

You know what I mean? And so that's how I look at it. Like, study, study the craft. you can go back and watch every great comedian that ever existed. No reason not to. You could go to a comedy club with a baseball hat low and you and your man and you could sit there and watch things that are happening. You could gain an understanding of the current zeitgeist because that's a lot of it too.

See, art, people confuse. See, commercially successful art is about how it connects with the current zeitgeist. Great art in general is just about what you create from the soul and put out there. I like that there's a distinction. And there's a distinction, right? So you can have something that's really, really great. It just doesn't necessarily connect with the majority of the zeitgeist at the time. That doesn't mean it's not great.

Prime example, you just talked about Michael Jackson. The film allowed the music to connect with the current zeitgeist, and the quality of the music took care of itself. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So that's what you're talking about. That's exactly it.

Yeah. That's exactly it. I remember, this is so crazy. Sorry, it caught you off. We were speaking about, back in the day when you started doing television in essay, the late night show, we used to be so frustrated with how the direction of the show was going.

And I remember the one thing that you once said was, don't you stress yourself, that it just don't know where it's going. But there was no clue that you were going to do the daily show one day or host the Grammys. In the midst of that frustration, you were like, no, let's just do this thing. Don't worry about it.

Just don't know where it's going. And this was years before coming to the years. It's funny. Yeah. Yes and years. I get what you're saying. Yeah. Step by step.

You know what it actually goes to? Yeah. Now that you've given me that framing, it's the software. So when I think about like how I process my life, see like your mom and your grandmother said to you don't do a thing unless it's going to you're going to do it well and not at all. Do it well and not at all. But make sure that it's completed. I like to like follow through on the task.

The thing my mom instilled in me all the time was don't do it because somebody's watching. Wow. That's the thing she would always say to me. You know why that's really important? Because that's how consistency and discipline is built. Yeah. Because it's like do it because this is what you really want.

No incentive. Yeah, yeah. You got to do it because the action is the incentive. Yeah. It's you. It's a different incentive. It's about you. It's within here.

She would walk in and find it. me cleaning something. Like she would tell me to do, you know, wash the dishes, you know, clean the floor, whatever. You have your chores for the day. Wow, that's good. And then, you know, as soon as she'd leave the room, I would just be... Right.

I'll be like, kid, I'm like... And then she would like catch me. And then I'll, you know, all of a sudden go into like, oh, I'm mopping mode and I'm washing mode. And then she'd say to me, she'd say, he hasn't done my child, she'd say, I hope that you don't think that you should do it well because I'm seeing you. She says, I want you to take pride in doing it because you know you did it.

She says, when you finished washing those dishes, I want you to walk past them just every now and again seeing them in the rack and go, I wash those dishes. That's right. No one else. She said, just for you. Just go like, I wash those.

She says, when we're sitting here and the floor is clean, I just want you to have that feeling of like, I clean that floor. Like, I did that. And as a kid, obviously, you know, there's the chore and I'm like, ah, whatever. But subconsciously, what she kept programming in me was this idea of the audience,

if you allow the audience to define the joy that you're experiencing, you will then be subject to the audience's joy of your experience. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the difference between happiness and joy, right? Like, in a lot of ways, sometimes happiness is like an external thing.

Complete. Joy is like inside. Yeah. You're joyful regardless. So you can be in the middle, prime example. You could be climbing the mountain, you know, trying to clown Everest. Yeah.

It's painful, but you're joyful. You're under duress, but you're joyful. You're not happy. You're not happy in that moment at all, but you're joyful. And so that's the thing you got away. And I'll tell you another thing, you know, you can look yourself in the eyes in the mirror. You know where you're at relative to the things you want to accomplish.

Yeah. Your eyes will tell you the truth. Just look in your eyes and just, you know what it is. You know, if you know your rank relative to your dreams and you're at, You know where you're at, right? If we're going to go up that barometer of whatever success or if you want that, whatever, however you look at it. Right.

When you look yourself in the eye and the mirror, you know where you're at. And that's the one that, like, when you can kind of honestly do that and just look yourself in the mirror for a second and just say, you know, you know, you know. See, we like to act like we don't know what we are. You know what you are.

You know whether you win, You know when you backsliding a little, you know, when you, you know. With yourself, which is the important thing. 100%. Yeah, not with anything external. Yeah. Just with yourself. Just with yourself.

Just with yourself. Just with yourself. And sometimes the person watching is LL. No question. I'm watching. He's under duress. And I'm not said just because no one's watching. Under duress.

Under duress. Just crocs on with a pebble in the front. Just under duress. Don't go anywhere because we got more what now. after this. There was this phase when music was going through, like rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And it was this big debate that people had about me,

about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company? Why isn't he going to be the president? It's like in the deepest recesses of my soul, I had no desire to do that, man. What did your grandfather think about him? hip-hop because jazz musicians, like, you know, you read all these stories. What do he think about hip-hop?

So, I mean, the reality is that I was so crazy. My grandfather was just happy to keep me in the house. Yeah? Yeah, because I had, you know, I was riding mini bikes and getting hit on them. My man E-love had a mini-bike. I got hit on it and all this. Wait, you wanted those kids wheeling around? I wasn't wheeling.

I wish I was willing. Okay, okay. But I was really just, you know. I see those kids in New York all the time. I wish I was there. We had, I love those videos. We didn't have a mob of them, but like, my man E-love, He had a mini bike.

How did he love come to have a mini bike? Yeah, how did he get him? Yeah. You know, Earl was always like a bit of a hustler. Always had a little something going on. And just he had enough to get him a mini bike. And so he's riding around. And, you know, he has the string tied to the throttle.

He says, yo, you know, I said, can I ride? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. But, you know, don't stop at the stop signs. It'll stall. Why? Great instructor. It's great advice. Great advice.

I got an idea. Don't stop at the stop signs because the bike are stalled. Okay. I don't, yo, there's so much to unpack with that. I'll tell you what I love here. No matter where you're from, the hood is the hood. Yo, yo. That's what I'm thinking.

Checka, this is fully, you could tell the story in South Africa, in Soeto, in a township in Elex. People will be like, we know that man. Yeah, absolutely. We know that bike. We know this room. Absolutely. So I'm like, how did he come? So I'm, rah, rah, rah, rah.

And I hit, you know, I hit a corner. And I'm like, oh, I can't. stop and then I see a car. He said, don't stop. I see a car. So I try to turn and miss it. I'm in the bushes. I'm cool. I didn't get hurt. Yeah. The bike's a little damage. I get up, brush myself off, kind of limp home. I left his bike with my bike. I go in the house. My grandmother, so a few days later, you know, the neighborhood. Everybody, oh, you got really, I was the story, yeah. You know, the old lady, dude. He got here. You know, just the whole, The whole neighborhood is just, you know.

And so finally, my grandmother, she convinced him with my grandfather being from Barbados, he didn't have a lot of money. He did not. But what he did have, he wasn't spending. Right. It's like I got, I have $19, and I'm not spending the $19. Yeah. You know, it was that kind of a deal, right?

So she convinced him to get me some equipment because it would keep me in the house. So he went, he bought me two turntables on a mixer, and I was able to lean more in the hip-hop, because he knew I loved it already. And to answer your question about how he felt about it, he was a very open-minded person. He would take me in the basement and do these reel-a-reels and have me like talking and singing on the microphone where he would play.

And so he would encourage it. So I grew up, you know, listening to like, you know, all of the big band, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, you know, you know, all, just anything grew back, just anything you could think, Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith at the person, Penthouse Live and all this stuff. And so he was very comfortable with it. So he loved music.

So he was fine with me getting involved with that. So, you know, that's what it was. And I ended up, you know. And, you know, what was really crazy is I turned professional after he passed away, but before he passed away, he was in the VA hospital because he was in the Med Corps in the Army. And so he was at the VA. he, you know, when he wasn't well in his latter years.

And he used to stare at the, he used to have a radio on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the counter there, you know, on the shelf near the window. The window cell. Yeah, right. And he would just say, that's taught on the radio. No. I promise you, that's taught. And my grandmother would say, gee, that's not taught. He said, you don't believe me.

That's taught on the radio. And it was really crazy. And I used to just sit there and I really believed them. So I ended up naming my first album, Radio. Oh, man. That's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think it was just him believing in something?

It's almost like he, like Eugene, no, but Eugene is very spiritual in that way, I would say, and like, Eugene? Eugene? That's my grandfather's name, Eugene. Oh, that's my grandfather's name, Eugene. Oh, that's why that threw you, sorry. Yeah, yeah, when you said, I'm like, your grandfather's name is Eugene. Yeah, his name is Eugene.

That's crazy. That is crazy. Yeah. Because I said Eugene's very spiritual, then you're like, wait, what? Yeah, no, this Eugene, no, oh, damn, okay, that's crazy, yeah. sometimes we'll experience things or people will experience things that we can't necessarily explain

in the moment in that time. So you're telling that story. You know, your grandfather listening to the radio saying, that's Todd, that's Todd. And some people would be like, oh, he was losing it. It was the end. It was the...

But sometimes, man, there's... And I fight this. I won't lie. He knows this. He knows this. I fight this on at every turn. Right? But I can't deny him.

And sometimes there are moments and occurrences that make me feel like there's a level or a spiritual plane that connects people to something that we can't fully understand. That might be prophetic, that might be... Even in that, like my grandmother, which was 96 years old, the last year of her life,

she lived with my mom. They never really had a great relationship when they're growing up tumultuous, you know, love and hate, love and hate here. But the final year, my mom always says, was the greatest gift that God could have given her. Wow. because my grandmother had to be with, you know, my mom and they stayed together.

And so they bickered and they, but she says, like, they got to mend everything together. Right. And I used to watch them. They were really like a comedy duo. It was literally like watching a sitcom when they'd be there together. And one of the days I'll never forget is I flew back home to South Africa. I didn't tell anybody I was coming home. And I thought I was just surprised them, you know, and just, you know.

and I phoned or I messaged my mom and I said what are you doing on Saturday she was like what what

now I don't talk like this to my mom so already she was like you know she was like what are you doing on Saturday she's like what I don't know why I was like well what are you doing she's like what do you mean what am I doing she said I'm doing what I'm doing

I'm going to be with the animals and then I'm going to do the garden and then I'm going to... What's happening? What's wrong? What are you asking me? I was like, no, nothing. I just want to know what are you doing?

Like, what are you up to in your life? And my mom was like, Ewan, Trevor, what's happening? What's wrong? What do you want? No, but what's wrong? It was more like, what's wrong, Wena? What's happening?

And then she paused and she went, Wait, are you here? I was like, where's here? She's like, hey, Wena, stop playing with me. Are you here? Are you in South Africa? I was like, yeah, I was going to surprise you. I'm in South Africa.

And then she went, which means oh god like she went oh tic i can't believe it said what yeah oh damn you got a good click she's like oh tick she's like you won't believe this said what she said i've been fighting with your grandmother for the last week every day she wakes up and then randomly in the middle of the day she goes i can feel trevor man when is trevor coming oh wow and my mom goes he's in new york and then my grandma go no man Oh, no Trevor, like, he's here. Are you sure Trevor's not here?

Are you sure he's not like? And then my mom would be like, he's definitely in New York. He's not here. And every day. And then my mom, because they would fight. And you know, my mom, you've met my mom. She also says things that are so funny but like wrong if you don't know her. So she says to my grand, she's like, oh, clearly you're already dead.

She's like, I, no, no, but she's exactly. So she's like, I saw Feeleau and I, she's like, I saw Hambi there. She's like, you're long gone. And they're laughing about this. She's like, yo man, you're long dead. But now she's telling me the story. And she's like, yo, your grandma. She said, please get to the house.

I was like, yeah, I'm coming. She's like, no, get here. She said, because you'll make it a surprise for her. I won't tell her. But she said, but you clearly she could feel that you. And then when I got there, I walked in. My grand makes a little joke with me. Like when I walk and she's like, oh, Trevor, is that you?

I'm like, oh, am I dead? I'm like, no, you're not dead. It's me. It's me. It's me, Gogo. It's me. And she's like, oh, I thought you're not here. I'm like, no, I'm here.

No, we're all alive. Yeah, we start chatting. We're all still here. And then she said the more, yeah, she said, oh, I knew you were here because, oh, I'm so glad you came to say goodbye. And I was like, goodbye. I can say hello. Oh, wow. And she was like, no, yes, yes.

She says, oh, but I'm glad. Oh, I'm so glad you didn't leave before saying goodbye. And I was like, I was like, is it a. I also thought the same thing. My mom does like, oh, shame. She's fate. No. I left.

And then I want to say a month after that. She passed peacefully in her sleep By the way, she wasn't sick She wasn't struggling She wasn't anything She passed peacefully in her sleep And I keep thinking When you talk about your grandfather

And that window sill moment Oh yeah Part of me goes It felt like he was It's like he was seeing something That didn't exist yet Because maybe he was moving on to it in a way There's no question about it man

It's um You know It's powerful You know what I mean Like I'm a big believer in like first of all, I have supreme faith in God, but I'm also a believer in, you know, I think people pray to God and I think intuition is God speaking to you. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I follow that. You know, I always follow my intuitive lead. So, you know, you going, your grandmother kind of feeling that and kind of that, that's all real. We all, you know, it's interesting. We're all kind of interconnected in some sort of kind of solar system thing. like prime example, just, you know, me and you, Grammy's conference here, like, if you think about it,

like there are certain people in your life that you just, for some reason, they become part of your solar system, right? Like they become, like, you know, and now mind you, some planets are farther away, and they take longer to swing back around, but ultimately, you know, so I just, I just, you know, I think what you're saying is real. I believe in it.

I don't, I don't doubt it. You know what I'm saying? I don't, you know, I think, you know, it's funny, especially in the internet age, but, you know, being cynical can sound intelligent, but it's really like cowardice. Because you're afraid to, like, see the possibilities in a situation. It's so easy to be cynical. Yeah. It's very, it's a much safer. It's cheap. It's cheap. It's safe. It's cheap. It's safe. Yeah. You know, it's safe to just, no, cynicism. I'm cynical. No. Because, you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day, right?

The garbage can't get a steak once in a while. So every now and then you get proven to be right and then you think your cynicism or you being cynical is the way to go. Yes. You know what I mean? Yep. I just, I don't like living my life like that. Yeah. I think what happens with people is we will talk about this in different ways.

But it's also, it's safe because it's externally safe, but it's not. internally safe. Oh, without a doubt. Because what you're doing is, you're just saying out loud, I knew that life would let me down. There you go. But by saying that it's let you down,

it means that you did have an expectation. Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. You came down from somewhere. Yeah, and people don't realize they're doing that oftentimes when they're being like cynical about everything.

I don't think you have to believe that everything will go or won't go. But I'm saying like, it's interesting that you think that everything will go wrong. And I'm like, but just by the fact that you're saying it's wrong, means that there was a right and you're not admitting that it has let you down. Does this make sense?

Absolutely. As opposed, so I've met like monks, for instance, who they have a, not even an opposite view, a neutral view, they just go, it just will be. Right. That would be, that would be, that would be, oh, if you just believe the world is, then it'll just be. It's interesting that you're all going to go wrong. It's all going to go to shit.

It's never going to work. Then it's like, oh, you're trying to protect yourself from life letting you down because it has before. Yeah. That's right. And you also got to have the emotional endurance to handle it, right? Because like... Ah, yeah, that's a big one. Things get better.

Like, you know, thousands of years ago, there was an ice age, but summer was coming. No matter how you... Remember the thing that I told you, the monk said to me, one of the greatest lines that has affected my entire life simplest thing ever, I asked a monk in Bhutan. I said to him, give me one, just one nugget that's hard. to apply but easy to understand and he said life

is going to be full of storms a happy life is knowing when you are between storms yeah yeah that's deep yeah yeah that one that one like you know when you're in between

yo let me tell you something you know where you see it in real life you talk about watching people whenever it's raining I love to see which people keep their umbrella up after the rain has stopped. I'm always fascinated by them. The just-in-cacer's?

Or even the ones who haven't noticed that it stopped raining. Oh, oh, clueless. Wow. They put the umbrella up. It's raining. That's raining. It's raining.

Yeah. And the rain stops, and they keep the umbrella up. Yeah, but that's how, that's defense mechanisms, right? People do that in general. But I'm saying, imagine if you live like that in your life. Yeah, exactly. A storm comes. It is a real storm.

You've lost loved ones You've suffered abuse You've been swindled of your money You've been fired You whatever the things are They are real They're 100% real It is a storm

But then when the storm is not happening You can still live in that storm And it's like What happened? Stole my money When was it? 20 years ago You know your uncle stole that money from

Yeah but I'm not saying That didn't happen But are you still living in that storm Yeah They let their past Holder future hostage You know what I'm saying It's like you know it's funny

you know, the one that, the nugget that I always think is great is, you know, there's two pieces to it. First of all, just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. Yeah. Right. You just alluded to that. Yeah. And then the other part is it's friction, right? And friction makes, it makes easy things difficult, and it makes difficult things seem impossible.

And if you understand that there's always going to be friction, you'll be comfortable no matter what's going on. you feel me because it makes easy things difficult and it makes difficult things seem impossible right so if you understand that there's friction you'll be able to deal with the you I say oh this is just friction yeah I think the reason we don't have that in life is because we don't most of the time we don't afford each other the friction or the story of the friction

wow does it make sense yeah so let's say the Grammys we see the person on stage yeah they give us a 30 second speech of overcoming everything and they tell us about you know how hard it was how beautiful people give them an applause but it's 30 seconds

it's a lot less time than we've spent listening to the album and enjoying your success and seeing you you know with millions of followers do you get what I do I do I do I do so how do I buy that thing from you now I can hear it as a story

as a story but I have not experienced it I have not seen it. I have not, you know how many people I've even seen online on social media do this where they'll post and their post will always talk

about their life in hindsight. Like now it's a beautiful picture of them in a relationship, them traveling, them living their lives. And then they'll go, a year ago, I was a sad,

burdened version of myself. I was, then I'm like, okay, I don't mind that you're doing that. I mind. I definitely mind. You know what I mean?

Why we talk about you being sad a year ago, Yeah, but this is my... You're bringing the sadness back. But my problem is they're not showing it that. They're like... The happiness is the permanent... Yeah, the highlight real.

The sadness is just like a glimpse. I was sad. Oh, yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It does. And then it makes you feel like your sadness is lasting way longer than it should because theirs is already gone.

I don't know. I don't know if I'm articulating this. Yeah. I think you are. Do you know what I think, you are? I think, you know, There's a lot to unpack there, though, right? Because the reality is that, you know, some things aren't for the Internet.

Oh, damn. Right? Like some things that people go through and like, they need to just keep that in their kitchen or in their dining room or whatever, whatever, you know, is going on. They need to keep that home. And I think people forget that sometimes. Yeah, I think a lot of people have forgotten that. It's, like, crazy to me.

It's like, you know, and no disrespect, because I know the majority of people watching this, You know, before they eat, I'm like, yo, can we just eat this food, man? Do I need to do a photo session with my filet before we, you know, can I get to this? Like, what are we doing right now? Like, what are we doing this? Yo, let's eat this.

Yo, let's eat this. You just like, it's a filet. It's a filet. Come on. You know. But it's a filet. It's a filet. Come on, I got to take a photo.

It's a filet. You know, I love it when when I learned something new. especially about spirituality and about how things are, I don't believe there's coincidences. I believe that things will happen as they may or as they should and you're just there to catch the wave when it happens. It's like radio waves are flying around.

If you have an antenna, you'll catch the station. 100%. That's happening with or without you. That was the name of the album, right, force. No way. It was frequencies of real creative energy and that was the whole idea of just catching those frequencies. That's what the force stands for,

frequencies of real creative energy. And so it's exactly what you just said. Yeah. When those signals come by, you're just reaching out and just grabbing them. You know what I mean? That was the whole thought. That's what, you see? How is it?

You know, you just made me realize something. You are the most conscious, but yet seemingly unconscious rapper. No, and I mean this, hopefully, like, I hope you take it as a compliment. I get it. Because I mean it as one, it's like, you know, in our heads, when we go like, oh, the conscious rapper. Yeah. In someone's minds, it's like a certain way of dressing, a certain way of being, a certain And then when you think of chains and you think of like the diamond earrings and you think of a different way of being and a different...

You literally broke every single mold and you continue to break every single mold because I think of you and I go, every single album had a title and a meaning behind it that could only be described as conscious. Yeah. Right? Your music had everything that people can associate with hip hop in a stereotypical way, braggadocious and. out there and aspirational and hopeful. Good times. Good times or the hope of good times

or the, you know what I mean, the celebration of the times that are good because they're not always. And then one of the biggest ones that I still, I can't think of it not existing because in my head it's always existed. You're like the first and only rapper to think of women as an active audience

who are human beings and not just an object or a subject. Oh, yeah. Hardway. Yeah, but like how did you... Let's go through all of those elements. So, okay, where do you think the brain side, you know, the brainiac side of your world was developed?

Who nourished that? Who encouraged that in your family? So I grew up, you know, with a family. Like, first of all, my house was full of books. But on top of it being full of books, my aunts were teachers and social work, like all kinds of different. Like, so there was a big emphasis on not necessarily formal education, but learning in general. There was just this, there was just an unsaid thing that we're going to learn something.

Like my grandfather, back then, there was no internet, right? So they had this thing called the World Book of Knowledge. I remember those. You remember the world? And I would get, so my grandfather would get those every year. Yeah, I would be reading them. I mean, you know, like, that was, so my life was, I was curious. Right.

And that was like how we lived. So that part of it, but here's the funny thing with me is like, I was like, you know, when I was in school, so I didn't stay along. But when I was in school, I was in classes for advanced kids, but I had terrible behavior. Were you bored easily? Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense. Like, yeah, you know, like, you know, like, you know, they're talking about, see, just, Just to go aside for one second,

I think a lot of the problems with schools in general is that they don't teach everyday kids how what they're teaching correlates with their real life and how it can be applied in real life. They expect you to just know that. Yeah. Yeah. Dead prayers said it well.

You know what I mean? Who they're teaching us? It's true. You know? So when they're, you know, talking to me about stuff And then I'm looking out the window, I'm just like, yo, what are you talking about? Yeah.

You know, and then, you know, in America, you know, like there's that moment, you know, for kids of color, you know, black kids or, you know, you're sitting there in class and all of a sudden they start talking about the 19th century in this country and they start bringing up some of the atrocities that took place. And all of a sudden there's this weird. kind of rush of embarrassment that goes over you that no one talks about. Because maybe, because if you're, whether, even if you're in a school that's all black or if you're in a school that's mixed, depending on whatever the makeup is, no matter what,

there's a certain amount of shame associated with being perceived to be too weak to overcome that. Yeah. Right? So it's kind of, so So when you're in school it's kind of like, okay, it just felt to me like I felt like someone was trying to teach me

how to be like everybody else and be obedient. That's what school is though. Yeah. And I don't say this enough. Yeah, but I also don't say this enough. It's in a bad way and in a good way. It's just in the way it is.

School is designed for the average. If you're an outlier in any way, school is not necessarily designed for you and unfortunately we haven't found a way that it can be because it's mass education it's such a difficult thing to do so everyone who falls within its constraints

and confines will do well if you are slightly ahead of it slightly behind it it's over for you it's just gonna it's not gonna be made for you do you do you get what I'm saying absolutely yeah absolutely and so so that's where so I just

I just got excited about learning around the house and seeing all these books and seeing all of this information and staring at my grandfather's tenor saxophone and seeing that and seeing pictures of him young with his wavy hair and he's with his band and he's you know he's cool and his you know he's got these curls and he's you know he's like the swaggering swaggering you know it was amazing so that's where that came from and then that you know the creator part you know my mother wrote poetry and was you know played the accordion and like this is beautiful okay no no all the

Pieces are coming together. You know what I'm saying? So it was like a real interest in world that I... So then, okay, now then let's talk about the lady's side of it, you know, because the name, ladies love cool James. Man, that was just wishful thinking, man. I just wanted them to love me, bro. I told you.

Yeah, you knew that, right, Eugene? I'm not sure you knew that. I knew that. You knew that, right? Yeah, yeah, yo. Can I tell you? Yeah. You say that, but I would argue, you're looking at your life.

Everything of yours has been wishful thinking, but it's applied thinking as well. Oh, I wanted it for sure. You see, that's the difference. Oh, yeah. You didn't just want it. You went for it. Oh, 100%. That's what I mean.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you know, like, the ladies' love thing was really simple. I had my friend, my man, Playboy, Mikey D. And it was like, my man, Red Hot Love of This and Love a Boy this. Right, right, right. All these different. And so I was like, you know, and he was like, yo.

And I was like, You should be the ladies love or something. Like, yeah, I like that. I'm the lady's love. I'm the lady's love. He's playboy. This one's this one. And we kind of just all that vibe.

But then... It was Ruben who shortened it, right? It was Rup. Yeah, because he didn't think it would fit on a label. You know what I mean? Not wrong. You know, and I was like, whatever. Yo, he can call me, you know, glass of water cool, Jay.

I just want to wreck it on me. So whatever you want to do, let's do it. You know? Yeah. And, um... But when you, when you, when you created a, um, you, when you, when you created a When you release the song, I Need Love. That flew in the face of everything that hip hop was at the time,

the idea of hip hop. Because it flipped. You know, if we think of, and the reason I think it's so pertinent today as well, is because masculinity goes through these waves in society, into the zeitgeist as we talk about it, where people constantly try and confine or define masculinity as one, as one simple idea, one flat idea. A man must be like this, a man do like this.

We're seeing that again now in internet culture. There's like a strong surge. Yeah, like in the man. And I think some of it is like, some people just say that as like a hateful thing of like men hanging out. So there's part of it where I go, it's just men hanging out. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes. But then there's part of it where...

Until there's that playing pickleball. That's not part of the manosphere. And I resent the fact that you said it because I play pickleball. Check it. So, you know, the other part of it is this. It's the fact that it's the fact that you have men who are only encouraging one side of being a man. I think a lot of what they say is great. You know, be self-sufficient, be strong, go work out, be help, do this thing, believe in yourself, push hard, be competitive.

It's great. But I see very few of them saying like, hey, be vulnerable, be honest, be, be needy, be what, you. You know what I mean? Like, find the things that you're, that you are also and not just one side of. So let me, let me, when you put out that song, I need love. Yeah. Come on. Well, here's the thing.

Here's the thing, though, right? So let's, let's look at it from that standpoint of like everybody on the internet, men and different things, thing you, what you call it, the sphere? Men is fear. Okay, let's call it that, right? Let's think about all that. The bottom line is this. If, if being. Fearless and courageous is the manly thing, let's say, right?

Yeah. Then saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love and you're not afraid to say it is the most fearless and courageous thing, right? You know? Because, like, my thing was I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you. It's not, you know, it's the exact opposite. It's not like, I need love not go hide in the corner. You know what I mean?

It's like I'm still going to make I'm bad and mama's to knock you out and all these things. But I can make I need love because I believe I need love. Like that was what I was inspired to say. And I think the most authentic thing is to just be, just be who you are and say what you feel for real. See, the problem is when men run into problems when they start looking to a female,

looking to a relationship for personal validation. Yeah. and to justify their actions. That's when they get in trouble, right? It's not a, I need love is not the issue. The issue is, can you need love and still have dignity? Or are you going to turn into just an absolute meatball and just be like stalking someone?

Can you need love and still maintain your character? Can you need love but still not, you know, turn into a pile of, lose yourself. Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's the difference. to me it's like I don't think there's anything wrong with

masculinity like I'm very comfortable with masculinity I'm very comfortable as a man I'm also very comfortable saying whatever it is I feel because that's the most manly thing that's what I'm saying. You see what I'm saying? That's exactly what I'm saying. If I

want to hug my son I'm a hug my son I'm not going to be afraid to hug my son but I'm also not going to come home and cry on my son's shoulder either unless there was a situation where I was forced to do that, then I would do that. Right, right, right, right.

Right. So I think that's that. So I think a lot of the problems seal, I think a lot of times now we're talking about, especially when you get into younger guys and young boys and, like, they, you got to build who you are from the inside out, man. Yeah.

Because ultimately people are going to see through whatever it is you're trying to, whatever that facade is, people are going to see through that. At some point it cracks. you got to build from the inside out. So if you're a man, you know, we're going to know. And it's not going to be because of your clothes. It's not going to be because of your pose. It's going to be because of your character.

And it's going to be because of how you deal with people. Do you keep your word? When you tell somebody you're going to do it, you know, like if I tell you I'm coming to the podcast, am I going to show up? It's like, do you keep your word? Do you do you do what you say you're going to do? That's manhood. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, you protect your family. Yeah, you protect yourself. Yeah, you defend the honor of those around you. Yes, you make sure you look out for those who are deserving of that in terms of like, like, when you're talking about your circle, you look out for those whose actions merit being looked out for. You don't let people manipulate you or make you feel guilty for your own success. Right? Like, these are things that you got to be prepared for. You know what I mean?

I know exactly. You help those. If they want to travel, you help them travel, but they got to be willing to pack their bags. They got to be willing to pack their bags. Right? And so, like, that's the way I think about it. You know, so when I do songs like I need love

or when I do any of my music, I don't feel like there are any rules to what we do. Yeah. The question is, is it true to you? Because some things are imagination. Sometimes it's imagination. You know, when Marlon Brando's in The Godfather, you know, he's using his imagination. Sometimes we create art through imagination.

It's not always reality, you know. It can resemble reality, but it's imagination. So it might be a song, and I've never experienced that, but it's something I imagined or was people watching and saw it and got inspired. Right? So that's okay, too. But in terms of your life as a man, it's like manhood is. about just standing on your word

and doing what you... Like one of the songs on the fourth album, I said, always keep your word, always paying back. Like, I meant that. You know, like, when you deal with people, you keep your word, you pay people back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, that matters. That's the stuff to me. Is that why you've spent so much time and effort in this era of your career? Again, subverting the expectations. hip hop for a long time for many people has been about I'm better than you I'm going to conquer you I'm going to defeat you I've got more than you but in a but in a good way as well it was a challenge battle rap you know what I mean

it's like you and cannabis for instance like when I think of like some of the great defining moments in hip hop and then now I feel like your legacy has switched to I'm gonna remember you like it's almost like you've become one of the custodians of hip hip hop to say no hey all these greats we need to remember that they existed, we remember that they're still here. We need to remember what they did to the game, what they gave to the game. Like, where did that, when did that shift happen? What, what made you think, I need to make sure that every single hip-hop artist that deserves to be remembered, gets remembered, otherwise they will be forgotten. So Rock the Bells is the company that I do that

with. And where it came from is that I saw the shift where hip-hop became more about, and mind you, this is coming from the guy who's like the commercial king, right? Like, you know, in terms of being a commercial rapper. Right? Like, I'm one of the first guys like a commercial rapper, not just underground, right? So, but what I noticed is that... You wanted the first crossover. Crossover, right.

But what I noticed is that it became more about what people have acquired than what they contributed. Oh, that's interesting. Right? Taken instead of what you've given. So your value, like, I've never, ever heard anything. anybody even speculate a wonder about Bob Marley's bank account. I've never heard anybody use that as a way, a metric for Bob Molly's success for his impact.

Ever. Have you seen that interview? It's funny that you say that. There's a clip of an old interview of his that I saw a few months ago. Oh, that British interview. Yeah, the British interviewer who asked him, he says, Mr. Bob Marley, you've done quite well for yourself. and you've really, you've been sung,

all of, people sing your songs all over the world, you've done, you must have a lot of money. And then he's like, oh, you're rich. He says something like that. And then like Bob Molly replies, yeah, and it's the most beautiful response. I'll butcher if I even try and say it. But he basically goes like, he's like,

he's like, what do you mean by rich? He's like, rich as the money in my bank account or rich. He says, yo man, my experiences, my people, my country, what I'm doing, what I'm experiencing. He's like, yo, your rich is not my rich. It's so interesting that you just said that. Yeah, and so, and see, my thing is, this, look, don't take this wrong. I like to make money. I want everybody. I'd like all the artists

to have money, but that's being able to capitalize and monetize a situation. Like the Wright brothers did not get rich from airplanes. Yeah. Like being able to monetize something is a whole another skill set. It's a different game. And there's nothing wrong with it. I am clear. I don't want anybody to get it confused. I want people to make money. I understand how important it is for our lives. I come from a background. We didn't have a lot. I understand the importance. However, we still have to remember that they're a great artists who made great contributions to society. It doesn't matter how much Melly Mell and Flash and them made off of the message as a song. It matters from a business standpoint. Of course it matters. I think they should get every dime

from their record that they were supposed to get, of course. Yeah, completely. That being said, how that impacted society should not be measured by what they have in the bank. We have become a society that has singular measures of success now. Exactly. Exactly. You know, like Forbes, for instance, I mean, they do what they do. But it's always been interesting to me that Forbes really just focuses on people's net worth and not like, for instance, like net contributions or net value created or net.

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, how much, how much, you know, how much money did Nelson Mandela? How much is his estate? Yeah. Okay. This man, what he did for the world? This example that he set for the world.

Yeah. Okay. He didn't have $2 billion, $3 billion. Okay. And so, you know, I think there's nothing wrong with the money. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of great people who make a lot of money. And I applaud them and I love that for them.

I really do. And I make money. I really enjoy it. But I do. No doubt. No question. But Mandela, Martin Luther King still meant something. Yeah.

He still accomplished something and touched something. Gandhi still did something. When he marched to the sea and did the salt march, that still meant something. Regardless of, you see what I'm saying? No, I completely get you. I'm just saying, let's just keep it all in perspective. See, people will go to the extreme and just hate billionaires. I think that's the wrong approach because that's an extreme too.

Because most of the people will say they hate billionaires would want to be one. It's not many. There's some. There's not many people who would say, I don't want to be a billionaire. You know, you got a couple that I'll say, okay, I'll take $999 million. You know what I mean? But there's not many. You know what I mean?

That's me, that's you, Eugene. That's you, Jane. I know it was Eugene. I know it. I can see you. It's the bracelet telling me you got it in you. Just the one-off. I don't want to be greedy.

I don't want to be greedy. Just give me $999,000,000,000. You take the one and buy something nice for you. Get something nice, you know? You know, get something nice for yourself. Go ahead over there and get you, you know. I like that you say that because that speaks to the complexity of everything, right? It's like, we literally had this conversation the other day.

I said, I think this is the most quiet of being ever in an interview. I've in a hang, I've never been this quiet I feel like you're recapping our conversations and I'm learning something new it's just amazing, carry on. No, so we literally had this conversation we're talking about the billionaire thing the other day. And I was saying to Eugene, I said, you know,

I really, really do wish that we lived in less of a flattened world and I do believe, it's not the only reason, but I do believe social media has rewarded flattening because it's an easier message to get across quickly and so, you know, it's much faster than nuance, right? We've even seen it online. A clip will travel way further than an interview, right? Clips are way more powerful, right?

Absolutely. Clip forming. That's exactly, that's what, and that's what society has become. But I go like, if you really think of it, you go like, no, I don't think you hate a billionaire. You hate it in relation to yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? Absolutely. So my issue is not a billionaire. My issue is the fact that a billionaire

is still living in the same society as somebody who can work two jobs and still be homeless. That's where I go. And I also go, it's not the billionaire's fault. I go, yo, you're also part of the system. You're participating in the system. So let's fix the system.

I see you talk about things like that all the time, just like the way you think about AI, the way you think about the world we're living and you pulled out of a concert because the workers were striking. I think this was in Philadelphia. And I remember you pulled out And you said, yo, I can't go there and cross a picket line to make money

when these people on the ground are not going to get the money that they're supposed to get. To me, that was a moment where I was saying, damn. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, man. My grandfather shined shoes. My grandfather was a baggage handler. He worked his way.

But he then, then he worked at the post office. Then he went back to school to study engineering to try to get better in his life. Like, like, like, at the end of the day, what people should really look at, I think the question you should ask, or at least one good question, is am I maximizing my own personal potential? Yeah.

That's really the question, one good question to ask. Am I maximizing my personal potential in life? Because if, if you're, let's go back to climbing Mount Everest, if your goal has always been to climb Mount Everest. And every day you're doing the training, you're going in the altitude rooms, you're doing your rock climbing exercises, you're going through all your process,

you're learning all about the equipment, the weather, all of that, all of that, right? When you walk into a room with a billionaire, you will not feel less than. Yeah. I've met, like, even when we go to the conferences, we meet all kinds of adventurers and guys that have went all over the world

and do deep sea diving and take pictures. pictures on top of and it's like you find out that there are lots of ways for human beings to be fulfilled yeah but society for some reason has decided on one minute that there's only one way for you to be complete yeah and full but we what we never seem to care about or ask about is or at least consider is what does that person want out of their life yeah like I remember a long time ago you know there was this

phase when when music was going through like rappers were becoming executives and this and that and it was this big debate that people had about me about you know why isn't he you know the president of the company? Why isn't he going to be the president? It's like

in the deepest recesses of my soul I had no desire to do that man just because this person wants to do that. I love you so much for saying that. Yo, it's like...

I... Are you familiar with the Peter Principle? No, tell me to Peter Principle. I've heard that term. The Peter Principle is a term that refers to... It's something that I find is most apparent in America, but it's all over the world, but it's really apparent in America. It is the concept of promoting people to the point of failure.

You just keep like... You rise to the level of your incompetent. Yeah, but they also put you there. And it's like, because society's constantly so you go, man, you're at... You're an amazing, you're an amazing rapper. You're your phenomenal artist. You create, you, you should run a company. Why don't you run a company?

You're like, yo, I'm doing this, I'm doing well. I'm enjoying myself. You should run a company. I'm doing this, I'm enjoying myself, I'm doing, you should run a company. And then you run a company, you don't like running a company. You have no aptitude for running a company because you don't have the will to run a company. And then the company doesn't do well.

Then they're like, man, he was trashed running that company. Then you're like, but he never wanted to run it in the first place. And we do this in every aspect. It's crazy how that principle applies in society. Companies do this all the time. They will take somebody who is, I mean, absolutely the best at sales or something. They crush it. They crush it.

They'll make them a manager. Then you're like, why did you make them a manager? Well, they were the best in sales, so we made them the manager. Yeah, but do you know if they were a good manager, though? Managing people is different to selling. Why not just keep them going up the ladder and say, well, there's a limit. I'm like, yeah, but you created that limit. It's an artificial limit that you created.

And now what you've done is you promote this person to manager. You say they're not a good manager. And then you know what they do? Yeah. They fire you. Yeah. They don't even keep you as a salesperson. But you know what's the piece of that.

The thing that you are good at. They fire you and you go, but I was a salesperson. I was the best. Yeah. But you know the one thing it is you got to know how to say no. That's hard. Yeah, because when you say no, then they debate. That's hard.

And that's what you're talking about. 100%. You got to know how to. I don't want to be. president of that. Now, I'll start, excuse me, I'll do Rock the Bells because I'm passionate about that. And you want to. And I want to do Rock the bells. There you go. Yeah. You know, so we have the channel on Sirius XM and we have all the stuff we go. Yeah. Yeah. I want to do that though. I didn't want to do that other thing. Right. It's like that's the stuff that we got to, you got to, that's why you got to be

able to say no. That's like in the midst of it. Now, in terms of that, what you just said, I always think about how people rise to the level of their incompetence and then you have have to stay curious and increase your skill in order to level up again. Oh, yeah, that's hard, though. That's terrifying, in fact. Yeah, but that's the difference, though, right? That's the second, that's the, that's the, that's the 12th rep when you're on the bench, you know? I told you must count.

You know, you know, you. You know, I told you. You know, I've come to realize I told you can work on it. It really can. It really can. I told you. I've been telling you. I've been telling you.

How do I say? How do I say I told you in your home dialogue? Oh, and the best of my cheliele. Huh? Nig. Nig. Nig. Think of it like that.

Oh, Nik Jelileile. Yeah, Nik Chelyelele. Yeah, Nchellile. Chililele. Yeah, that's it. Nijil. That's it. Chilililh.

That's it. Trevor, yesterday I was like, you know what, guys, when you're working out and you know you, you're doing, don't count, man. I don't say, don't count. I don't say, don't count. Don't do that to me. Trevor, can I tell my story. Yo, okay, do it. And then I will reply.

Is it okay if I tell my story? Lie and then I will respond. What a setup. That's like a pita. No, please, please go ahead. Trevor's like, guys, guys, you guys are getting it wrong, guys. You know what I find, when people are working out. Just know when you're working out.

Just do it until you feel that it's happening. Just know. Because this thing of counting, guys, people are counting. I'm done it so many times. And just leave it. Just have a good time, man, you know? And I said, isn't it better if you know how many reps you've done? I was like, Eugene, just the thing with you, man.

You're just keeping score too. Just work, man. You'll know when you're done and your muscles are saying. You'll just know it. He wouldn't say that when the bills is coming in. Let's pause. You know what I love about how you painted this false scenario. Let's start with this.

Just judging from that story. From that story, where do you think this conversation was taking place? Where does it sound like it was taking place? Sounds like you're in the gym. You see. You see how you lie about me. No, it was here. Guy was here, busy, pumping.

No. So, this is the conversation. The context is important. The context is important. What I was saying was... The phone is ringing. Is someone calling you? What's that the truth?

So, no, what I was saying was... Yeah. What I was saying was... What I was saying was... It is not only the number that defines whether or not you have lifted. Right? The number is just something that you are using to help you get to a... certain point. But the truth is, it's the fatigue and the muscle that's defining the growth.

So if you fixate too much on the number, you can stay in a place forever because you're not actually asking the question, is my muscle fatigued or not? That's absolutely correct. That is absolutely correct. You know why? Because this is what I was saying. You have to fool your body. Yeah, but you, you chileile lea. You know what I? You know what I mean? I love it. I love it. You're right.

Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went? I can't believe this was happening. Yo, the one that always pops in my head, and I've said it before, it's funny. I saw Muhammad Ali slapboxing Barry Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, Oh, Barry, oh, Barry!

And I'm just sitting down, yo, this is wow right now. I said, I can't even believe what I'm witnessing right now. You're right. When you look back at your life, you must have had someone like the most surreal. What are someone like the most surreal moments you've had just when you look back and go, I can't believe that happened to me in that. Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went? I can't believe this is happening.

Yo, the one that always pops in my head, and I've said it before, is funny. I saw Muhammad Ali slapboxing Barry Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, Oh, Barry, oh, Barry. And I'm just sitting there on, yo, this is wow right now. I said, I can't even believe what I'm witnessing right now. I leave. Barry Coddy is boxing. Diadam Ross. Yo, it was crazy. Crazy.

I would walk in Quincy Jones's house and Marlon Brando will be sitting there. You know, it was crazy, man. I've seen some, yeah, it's crazy, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's like famous. I know people use the term fame. Yeah. But, like, there was a time when it was almost like Olympus and the gods. Yes.

Oh, yeah. Where there was this space in the clouds where there. It can't exist again. It can't exist again. People were inaccessible. There's no social media. You were in that. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad?

Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but, you know, that was the vibe. That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones. Yeah. Because Michael was notorious for being inspired. Like you said, he would look at the world. I went in the studio with him and all that. Like it was, yeah, we had a ball. Do you still have those tracks, by the way?

No, there's somewhere floating around there in his thing. I mean, honestly, they weren't our best, but I think we were getting our footing and, you know, just kind of creating. I mean, that's still, someone has to find. Yeah, it was. Because you see, this is something I think of as well, you know, going back to talk about like art and the artist. There's the best, fine, our best work.

We judge ourselves, maybe someone else judge it, whatever it might be. But then there are also moments in history. It's like the pen that the declaration of independent, was written on, imagine if there was a draft of the Declaration of Independence and you're like, where is it? It's like, I don't know, man. It wasn't our best. Yeah, but that is sometimes more interesting and more important to preserve than the thing that exists because it's like we know the thing that exists. Hanging out with Mike was a lot of fun, man. You know, we'd, you know, we'd be on a plane. It'd be, it'll be me, Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Melking.

You know, we're on a jet, we're talking and vibing, and I'm just listening. How old were you when you met him, man? Man, well, the first time I met Mike, I might have been 18, 19, I don't know, some real young. How big was he at that stage? Huge. Like, this is like after thriller. Damn! I mean, he was, it was Olympus.

Yeah, no, okay, okay. It was Olympus. So now you're in Olympus right now. Absolutely, absolutely, because, you know, and then we dropped the, I'm, Bad albums right together. And, you know, just off to the races. Yo, it was crazy. It was crazy.

And, you know, Mike was so, he was a really good guy. I remember going to be coming to studio. Sorry, I'm late. There was traffic. I'm just sitting there like, yo, traffic. Mike Jackson. What was he in traffic? Like, all this crazy, you know?

You know what I'm saying? I'm just like, it was crazy, man. What was he like to work within the studio? Very meticulous. Yeah. Really, really, just really smart. And he liked to vibe. He liked the vibe and kind of kick it, you know, talk about music.

He was just a really interesting character, tell you stories, tell you crazy stories and all that about... Because I've heard some people say, I remember talking to Quincy once about this. And he said, Michael, like, in a weird way, didn't take himself too seriously when he was with people he trusted. Definitely didn't. He definitely didn't. Like he knew there was a gag sometimes that the public didn't know about, but he was playing into it. Man, yo, this is the crazy. I remember, yeah, I was so crazy, man.

I remember sitting there, man. I'm like, we sitting there, like, it was kind of like his office. It was in the studio. And I'm like, yo, I don't know what made me say this. Like, we sit there talking. Just like, just like, yo, Mike, man, I got a fart, man. He said, what? I said, I got a fart.

He said, what? I said, I have to fart. He said, well, go ahead. Then I went. He went, ah! Right. Then he got on the phone. A man, Mike, got on the phone.

We was talking about ice cream. We got on the phone. He said, yeah. Oh, you want ice cream? I said, yeah, it's because I get on the phone. It's like, whoever it was, he was like, hey, hey, guess what L.L did? And they were like, he said, guess what he did? They said, what he said, he ordered ice cream.

He did, yo, he was a, you know, he was a, yo. He knew what he was doing. Yo, Mike was the wild out beat. He was cool, man. Mike was a good dude, man. He was not, you know, he was a good guy. He really was. He really was.

This is what I think of oftentimes, like, perspective in all of these situations. No, because you're living in a world where, you know, you hear like... That's a clip farming. That's clip farming right there. No, no, I think of like the moments, man. That's an amazing memory, actually. That's what I'm talking about. The same way you're preserving the artists.

the same way you preserve the memories, the moments, the human behind these things. Do you get on saying? Like Quincy Jones. Yeah, man. He would invite me over, man, and sit there and talk to me about music and life. I mean, you know, you get to,

he was like James Bond to me. You know, there's a certain people. You know, I got, you know. He had that vibe. We shared the same birthday. So he reached out to me because of that. That was the strangest thing, one of the strangest things in my life.

Amen. Quincy Joseph called me and then he was like, it's not saying birthday. He was like, he called me and he's like, he says, I heard you a Pisces young man. I was like, I'm sorry, what's happening? Yeah, who is Quincy Jones? Then you're like, okay, it must be because I can't think of any of my friends

who can do a Quincy Jones impersonation. You never met me, you're just like, he's just like, I heard you a Pisces young man. When you're you're coming to say hi, that was a good, that was a good Quincy actually. And he's, and then he would just like, he would nurture you. He wanted to tell you like, just like what you can do, how you can grow, how you can. And he just shamed.

By the way, he didn't even have that. Let me school you feeling. No, no, no, no. It didn't come from that place. It didn't come from like some kind of condescending. No, never. Never. He would, you know, I'd do a lunch with him, you know, a few times a year.

Like maybe twice a year, you know, I'd go over there and just eat lunch with him and just talk with him. And he just talked to me about history, talk to me about music, talk to me about, you know, like he introduced me to Frank Sinatra. You know what I'm saying? When Frank was on his final leg of his run in Vegas, he took me to the show. He took me to the show, you know, introduced me to Frank Sinatra. Like, it's like a lot of different, you know, the people I met. He was a really special man, you know what I'm saying? He was a special, special guy.

He was a really, he was one of a kind. You know, oh, man, he was one of a kind, man. He truly was. Yeah, yeah. You just made me realize something that's also unique for your situation. There are many hip-hop artists who could look up to another hip-hop artist, but in many ways, not denying the ones. who came before you, there wasn't like a long-standing legacy

that you could look to in that way, because it was a fledgling idea. But you know what, I did, I did, man. Who are your mentors in life? Who are the people you can remember? So Quincy's one of them, you know, but who are the people you remember? Giving me advice?

And not just giving you advice, pushing you down a path that you otherwise wouldn't have gone down. Well, man, I tell you, there were a lot of people that I bumped into that were good. Obviously, Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie was always very kind and gave me insights. But then there was there was rap artists

who were a bit older who kind of just would tell me what not to do while they were doing it. I had a few of those too. That can sometimes be the most valuable thing. You know? It's like, you know, they'd be like, not the same for you, Al,

and save my life. I've had, you know, road managers. There was a time when really early in my career, where for about a string of maybe, I don't know, maybe four shows. Right before the show, I'd be like, yo, let me just get a little champagne. And, you know, I, because I had the nerve. I used to go to the bathroom and all.

Y'all give me some shit. And then I remember the one, there was like the fifth show, my role manager, my man, Tony Rohn. He just, you know, I was like, I had the bottle. And I'm like getting the bottle. And he came and grabbed the bottle out of my hand. He said, no. He saw where it was going. Yeah.

for you. He snatched the bottle out my hand. And that, you know, because that dependency, that's where it was going. And he, yeah. So a lot of it is, man, it's, you know, the man upstairs, it's a lot of luck in this thing.

A lot of chance, a lot of luck. I think we put a, we put more emphasis on intellect. We over-rotate on intellect and, you know, underweight luck. Yeah. Yeah. and chance and blessings.

Like, I got lucky with a lot of stuff, right? Like, you know. Is that why you're so strong in your faith? Absolutely. Absolutely, because I know that it didn't have to be this way. You know, I could have been a lot of things. I could have been, I could have went to the Marines because I wanted to be a general,

or I could have been like one of the most notorious menaces to society that's ever existed. You know what I'm saying? So it's like It's a good thing that it went this way Right, right, right Because it could have been, you know I mean, think about a great cigar

You look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way Yeah The world would not be, you know At least New York would have been a very different place Yeah, yeah, yeah, we take that for granted You know what I mean? So it's kind of like that show It's a wonderful life, the movie

It's a wonderful life, you know It's one man can make a huge difference. You know what I mean? One man could make a huge difference. So, yeah. I have a lot of faith in God because I know, like, I know what it's like to, you know, when bullets whizz by and you're hiding behind a snow mound like an idiot.

You're hiding behind a snow mound. From a bullet. From bullets. Like ducking behind a snow mound and the dudes in the car. You know, like that kind of. So I know. You know. Damn.

And being in, you know, hanging out with guys and there, you know, dropping nine millimeters on purpose just to see how you react, you know, loaded gun. Just to see, you know, where we at with it. You know what I mean? So it's like having all of that exposure, too. Yeah. Has made. And that's the other thing about my music and my career.

because I was exposed to so much street stuff, fly on the wall, but still exposed. Yeah. To so much street activity. I try to make music that got people like fall away. Bro, because, you know, it's like, you know, because from day one, I mean, the things I've seen have been crazy. Yeah.

And you've seen them in a real way. I think sometimes what people take for granted is, when I'll read and listen to hip-hop artists who were like there in the beginning, depending on where they were in their lives, I find there's like a distinct split between the hip-hop artists who were rapping about what they were experiencing

and what they were hoping to experience and then a different generation who now, and I don't mean this like old school, new school at all, because it still applies today. And then you get other artists who sort of like rap about having as opposed to like what they want to have, have and then they also rap about the idea of the thing, but not the thing itself. Like, they're not actually in it, but they rap about it as if they are in it.

And then you see this in the smallest ways. Like, there's an interview of yours. I remember reading. It was a crazy one. It was, what was it? Maybe like Esquire, one of those, they're doing like one of those quick rapid fire ones. And the interviewer was very flippant with you and was just like, so who do you think killed Biggie? Who do you think killed Biggie and Puck?

Your answer was like one of the most. It was so interesting. You answered it like a person who was around then. And you just, you, you almost like, and I'm reading this, by the way. I don't even think there's footage. You almost like sit up in the chair and you go, you're like, what are you talking about? It was like, well, who do you think did it? East versus West and who do you.

And you were just like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, you only talk like that because you weren't there. This is not like I wasn't, this wasn't a game. It's not a game, yeah. This was a real thing that we were living. this is this thing. You wouldn't even ask me that question if you knew. And that's what I'm feeling from you, even when you're talking about these experiences.

Yeah, man, because you know what? Life, man, like, I'll tell you, like, it's so funny and I'm kind of bringing it, but it's like, this whole process, man, like, I think we just have to learn to be a little more grateful. Yeah. And a little bit more comfortable with the idea that things kind of worked out for some of us.

You know what I mean? because we get real like complacent you know you can start living in a bubble and start taking things for granted there's real people out here with real lives and real problems and it's not the highlight reel that the internet is showing you it's not what tic-tok and in reals is showing you it's like there's a real world out here and people are going through it and so if you were blessed enough to escape that you should be thankful. If you weren't born into that, you should be thankful, but you should always, at a minimum, have some sort of empathy for what's going on in the world. Now, now that empathy doesn't have to ruin your life. I'm not asking you to sacrifice yourself on the altar of martyrdom for everything

that goes wrong in the world because you'll never be able to live. Right? But at the same time, you should recognize that. You know what I mean? And I just, you know, like, it's so funny, like, now we're shooting, I'm shooting NCIS New York in New York. Right. It's real different. Different edge.

Different vibe. It's like people are probably, like most people are thinking, oh, it'll probably be the same thing. It's the universe, but it's so different. Yeah. It's all the little things. So, you know, it's, let's just be thankful, man. Let's just be thankful. Let's have some fun.

Let's be thankful. Let's be glad that, you know, it's us three sitting here. And, you know, I'm the guy from New York and you guys came from South Africa and we vibe in. And it's for the right reason. As opposed to us sitting here, you know, we can be sitting here plotting on how to do something bad and crazy in the world. You know what I mean? You know, with no cameras. You know what I mean?

You know, you're so right. You know what I mean? Can I tell you? You know, it's funny, you go back, you go back to the school conversation, but I genuinely do think this. I do think this in society. I genuinely do think this. Yeah. I always wonder to myself how much society loses by not harnessing the talents and ambitions of the people who end up going to do those heinous things.

Oh, well, let me tell you. I love that question. Because see, I remember one time I was, you know, visiting Rikers Island. I was there, you know, because I like to visit and talk to the. you know, some of the inmates and stuff and give them love. Yeah. And this kid was rapping and he sounds so crazy. He was dope.

His lyrics, everything is delivery. I loved it. I'm like, yo, man, you got to do something. And he was like, yo, man, I got life, Elle. So he was on Rikers, but he was on his way upstate to do life. So what am I saying? I'm saying that, you know, you heard that term taking penitentiary chances? No, I've never heard that.

It's kind of like people that, a lot of times the guys that are sitting in are some of the more courageous and the more willing to go for it group. They just may have been misguided or had the wrong, they needed wiser people around them or needed better guidance. I would even argue opportunities. I'll tell you why. Because if those same guys, if you took that same personality, that same, that same everything, but you plunk them in Silicon Valley, don't be shocked when they're part of the next big startup.

I believe, I genuinely believe it's the same thrust. It's just if I put you in the wrong place, the wrong outcome. It's not even you. I'm not even saying you need to change. I'm just saying if I, let's put it this way. That's what they call it the trap, right? Exactly. If I give you, if I give you Legos and if I give you a gun,

you're going to probably build something with Legos and you're probably going to shoot something with a gun, is what I'm saying. And I don't, you get them saying. And sometimes we make it about the people, but it's like, yes, but what are the things that are around? When we find a child playing with certain things, why do we take them away? Yeah.

We don't go like, I'm taking the knife away because I don't want my kid to be a serial killer. He's just like, yo, the knife means the kid's more likely to cut someone. No, play with this instead. Because we go, this. This will, yeah, this will create.

This will, it will nurture, it will grow. It will. But on a society level, I just go like, man, how much ever we wasted? How much do we continue to waste? I always think of it like this. It's like a rocket upside down. Facing the right direction,

it can go very high. Yo, that's powerful. The wrong direction. That's really amazing. That's huge. That's huge. And, you know, I always tell people, you know, you don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your system.

You know what I'm saying? So it's like, what's your system? You know, it goes back to the exercise thing or, you know, what's your system like, right? Like, what is your plan? What is your workout? Are you being systematic in your life? So when you think about a lot of, like, the reason I say that is because I want all of the people all over the world. to see the humanity in all people.

Yeah. Not just in those who are more fortunate. Who. Because somebody was more fortunate doesn't mean they're more human. Hmm. Yeah. We literally talk about this.

And we kind of have a tendency to equate success with humanity. We do. And the less successful you're perceived to be, the less human you are. Yeah. Which is really kind of strange. Yeah.

But it also tells another story, which is that, part of being human is maximizing your potential. Yeah. So you are viewed as more human when people perceive you to be more in line. Yeah. With what humanity is. Yeah.

What you were meant to be. Yeah. It's, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Using this biological machine to its maximum capacity. 100% baby. And I think if you think about it, our capacity to love is unlimited, but we limited because of,

like you said, fear and expectations and what we think it can do for. for other people instead of what it can do for us, you know? Absolutely. That's absolutely true. Yeah. I agree with that. And also, you know, there's a difference between being kind and being nice, right? Yeah.

Like, being nice is like kind of a little bit of a dead-end street because you're doing it to, but being kind, you can tell the truth. It's the same as being loving or being love. Yeah. Because when you are love, you are it. If you are loving, you are giving it. It's the action. Yeah. That's deep.

Yeah. That's deep. When you say the grateful thing, it really sticks me because I think about your story. And, you know, when you say like the, you know, it's interesting when you say like the bullets whizzing by. Some people hear that and they think of it metaphorically. Even though it's a real thing, they still think of it as a metaphor from your life. But it's like, like, it's a literal, literal, literal thing. 100%.

You know, I remember like reading your story and I was like, I actually wanted to ask you this on a personal. level. I was like, because my mom was similar in that, you know, my, my stepfather shot my mom, right? She survived. Yeah, my mother was shot. She survived. And the craziest thing was, my mom said to me, you have to learn how to forgive him, don't hate him. And I was like, that's the, I was like, you know, you need to, you know. Yeah. Wow, I didn't know that about you. Yeah. And it, it's, so you can relate to that. More than relate. I remember reading your story, I thought the parallels and I was just like,

I would say it has taken me at least the good part of a decade to understand why she was doing what she was doing, why she was saying what she was saying. But at the time, I just, because I was like this, you talk about you bump into somebody or something bumps into you that moves you in a different direction. My mom, like, knew in that moment,

this thing could bump me. in a direction where my mind and my perception in life will completely... Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting. That, you know, the forgiveness thing is deep because it's like, just because you have the power not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. Whoa, damn.

And, you know, just because you're encouraged by your emotions not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. And, you know, a lot of times it's, I think we as human beings, we find it a lot easier. For whatever reason, there's some sort of selfish reward that comes from holding on the pain. Of course. You know, I don't know, I'm not quite sure what the reward is, but there's something, I don't know if it's like, we like, it's almost like we like it. Like we like the fact that we're not forgiving somebody. We get a certain kind of pleasure.

And maybe it makes us feel superior in some kind of hidden way. I'm not sure. I'm sure somebody out there who's a psychologist out there could unpack that for me. The reward to hanging on to anger is a satisfaction of being right.

Yeah. Yeah. Something in that realm. Because if you forgive, you have to admit that you could have been wrong to hold on to the feeling. There you go. And that's not what you want. Exactly.

I think to add on to that as well, as you were saying that, I was thinking it's also the idea that it sort of makes it mean more. Yeah, you were right. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because I think sometimes if you forgive somebody, you can feel like it doesn't now mean what it meant. Like so when you don't forgive someone, you go, what did they do to you or what happened?

I'll never forgive them. They did this thing. And it's like, and that keeps- And you have to explain what is the thing. Yeah, but I think it's because we associate forgiveness with letting go of the meaning of the things. It's like, you know like how people are, oh, I forgive you. And then what we interpret that as is, I've forgotten about it. It is now gone.

But it doesn't mean that. And so I think sometimes what we're holding on to is, I can't forgive you because then I've lost the meaning of this. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you know what's deep is. See, that's why you got to let go and let God, because if you go in the backyard and you dig a hole and you're angry at the hole and you put your fist on a hole, it can never quite fill up and heal again. But if you kind of back up off it, the leaves, the dirt, soil over time, it will, right? Yeah.

So we have to kind of, we got to let go and let God. Because in a way, like, if you stay angry, then God is like, all right, well, you got that covered. it because, you know, I don't need to deal with it because you're angry. Nature can't fill the hole if you're keeping your fist in there. You got to fill with anger, so I don't need to deal with that. You got that covered. But when you let go, then the universe can step in and say, okay, let's help out a little bit. You know, we can fix that and they'll give you double for your trouble.

There's one thing you can hold on from the lesson of after you forgave. Like you were saying, now, if you let go, then you feel like you've lost the meaning. but one thing you can keep is the impact. Without a doubt. Yeah, the impact of what that thing did and shape. Yeah, yeah, it goes into you and you know what it's all about. I watched this interview. They were talking to a forensic scientist and a person who investigates people

who've gone missing and have been murdered. Yeah. And then they were saying, without saying much, I can always walk into a field and tell where the body is buried. Then they were like, how? She said, if the shrubbery in that one patch is greener than the other. other parts. Oh.

And it means something is underneath. Oh, damn. The fertilization is abnormal. She said, the other part is, while, when soil is disturbed to insert a foreign object or bio object, it will never be flat again. So the indentation and the debit will always be there. Because once it was compressed, disturbed, filled again, that compression took a long time to exist.

You can't artificially. Right, right, right, right. So the grass will grow. when it settles, it'll still... Yes. So when they take a serial kill that wants to play games with them and once time out of prison just to take them on a drive about, she says, I just go in the field and I look and I look,

those two telltale signs have never been wrong. And our lives are like that, I guess. We are like that field that was once, you know, flattened and plain and compressed. Things happen. Things get taken out. You know, new experiences come in, a new book, a new friend, a new song, fill in the hole, but the debit is still there. Yeah.

Yes, but what we do is we put crosses all over the field to remind ourselves of where the debits are. And we don't necessarily have to. So we always have to remember. And sometimes some people come into our lives and ask us, what made you into this person? And then instead of just identifying the divot in the hole, we become that prisoner that takes them out on a drive-about. And you know, it's deep. And if you think about it, to add on to that metaphor, if you forgive and then you really go out and you go out and you do good work. and you go after your dreams,

that compression can take place a lot quicker. Yeah. You know, and it can be back to normal. Faster. Yeah, because, you know, by you, because God gets in it, nature gets in it. Yeah. And then that can take place, you know what I mean?

So because, yeah, like having things in your past, they don't have to go away, but it can be okay. Oh, I like that. You know what I'm saying? And it has to go away, but it can be okay. Yeah, it don't have to go away, but it can be okay. You can let go and let God.

You know what I mean? Wade Dyer loved this quote. I'm going to put you to it as well. He said, forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet gives to the heel that stepped on it. Yeah, man. Oh, damn, that's beautiful. And what's crazy is now we're in this world where it's like,

like the flip side of that is, I love this, this quote. And I forget that the guy's name. Those are the best quotes. The ones that you forgot, who said it? Yo, it's, it becomes yours. Power takes as ingratitude the writhing of its victims. Wait, wait, say that again?

Power. Power takes as ingratitude, the writhing of its victims. So in other words, like, if I step on your throat and you struggle, you're disrespecting me. and so that's what we're dealing with a lot of times people don't realize that I step on your mouth you bleed on my shoe and you're disrespecting me

you're disrespecting me yo that applies to so many things in society I can think of that in like abusive households I can think of that in abusive systems I can think of that in like oppressive people go on strike that's a crazy yeah to your point

that's a crazy concept There's a company that's not paying its employees the money they deserve or they're supposed to get the company the employees say we're not going to come to work and then the boss goes how dare they do this to me? That's crazy. Yo, that's and we live with that on a daily basis. We live with that on a daily basis, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, so you know, it's you got to know what you're dealing with, man out here in the world. You know what I mean? And you still got to find that thing there.

So it's navigating it. You know, we all navigate it. How have your kids changed how you navigated? What shifted in your life when that happened? You know, I tell you, you know, it's funny. My kids, I had my kids early in my career, like started having kids early in my career. I lived the same way. Like they didn't make change me.

or not change me. I like that. Yeah, I know what you mean. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? You know, like I had kids and I love them and I want to make sure that they're good but I'm still going to go after my dreams wholeheartedly.

Yeah. You know what's funny is? So many parents don't realize that's the greatest gift they can give their kids because you're showing them what to be, not telling them what to be. Do you get what I'm saying? 100%.

We talk about this all the time. People forget that your kid, when your kid goes, remember when you talked about this even on the podcast, like, when you realized, you thought that you staying around was the thing that your daughter needed. But then at some point she was like, yo, bro, can you let me, I need to go be with my friends, like, you're holding me back in a way. You're like, damn, wait, what?

Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, right? So you got to put your oxygen mask on in life. You know what I'm saying? Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, help your children, you know? And that goes for relationships too. Yeah. You want your relationship to last? You say that all the time.

Have some dreams and go after them. Yeah. Be sitting around. What's you doing? Where are you going? Why are you going over there? Who's going to be over there? I would like the way you said it.

I saw your girlfriend's story. Who else was over there? You know what you just made me think of it? A dog in a car never barks at moving cars. But when it's on the, when the cars is just like, yeah. Do you have you noticed that? Yeah, the way you just said it made me think of that for some strange reason. No, that's crazy.

But it's, you don't see. Yeah. Because the dog's moving as well. It's like, yeah. All the cars are busing by the cars. Yeah, it's cool. But if the cars move and the dog is stationary. Yeah.

Where you going? Who's going to be there? I saw your girlfriend's story. Yo, who else? Listen, man. Yeah, where you come? Hey! Yo, my thing is like, have a ball, man.

Send me a postcard, man. Have a ball, man. Man. We had a ball, man. This was, yo. Pleasure, man. Can I tell you? Thank you, man.

And I appreciate it on so many levels. I appreciated, one, you as the outside figure, the, you know, the father of a genre, like one of the pioneers who created something that we, we, We still appreciate till this day. Thank you. That's why I appreciate you. I appreciate you just as, you know, a human being taking your time to come and chill with us.

Yeah. But I also appreciate you as a fellow introvert, leaving your house, coming to hang out with us. No, because I appreciate that for real. No doubt. Thank you so much, man. No doubt. No doubt. This was, this is really.

Thank you so much, my man. My man. My man. My man. My man. That's how I'm going to start singing. Yuchi. You chile.

Yeah. Nichele. Chile. Chile. Chile. Chile. Chile. Chile.

Chile. Yeah, you stretch that lost part. Yeah, Nick Jalile. Yeah, like I've been telling you. You got to stretch that out. Nijalile. Yeah. I like it, baby.

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