What Now? with Trevor Noah - Meet Khaya Dlanga – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

We’ve got a new type of episode for you. In this premiere “My Favorite People” ep, Trevor chats with his longtime friend (indeed one of his favorite people), Khaya Dlanga. Khaya’s a South African writer, commentator, and Youtube OG. No topic is off limits, and the two discuss the world around us, how Khaya manages to be the most online person he knows and at the same time one of the most present, and what makes a great politician. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

By the way, can I just say, if you listen to this podcast and you had ideas about Africans, what I love about Kaya is he really makes you feel like you're talking to an African. Because it's like, what's his name? Kaya Zhanga. And then he's like, then my friend, Christian to my car and my other friend, then someone listening is like, oh, wow. And what's the dull child again? Yeah. Oh, this. what's a dull child again? Yeah.

Oh, this is a dull child. A dull child. Yeah. Like Kaya is full on, full on. Like anyone listening to this is like, yeah, this is, oh my God, this is really African. This is African. This is so African right now.

I should have shown them like pictures of me in the village. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. of me in the village. Kaya Langa, one of my favorite human beings on the planet. He's a writer, social commentator, social media superstar, but most importantly, and truly this is the most important, he's my friend. We've been friends for over 20 years now and Kaya Llanga is easily one of the smartest, funniest and interesting human beings I know.

And so I thought why not have him on the show? I mean, if you're going to have a podcast, you want to share the most interesting people, right? And that's what today's episode is all about. One of my favorite people in the entire world, Kaya Llanga. I think you're going to enjoy him as much as I do, but bad news, he's my friend, so you can't have him. Oh, and that random South African voice you hear in the background? That's Ryan, South African producer. Don't mind him, but really you should.

This is What Now with Trevor Noah. What happened to you by the way? What was going on with your Uber driver? Got into this Uber, started chatting with the guy's German, this German driver, so he's speaking, he's driving us. And like, oh, so start chatting, oh, where do you work? He works for, he is like an MD or something at Merrill Lynch. Like a- Wait, wait, what? I know. Your Uber driver? Our Uber driver was like- Like was or was- was current he was current as a time at the time yes like a massive executive position you know and I was like so was that I was like dude what what like explain what's going on here and it says no you know when I come from Germany I decide that in order for me to improve

my English I'm going to become an Uber driver you're lying yeah I'm going to become an Uber driver and then I'm going to please excuse my English, I'm going to become an Uber driver. Oh, you're lying. Yeah. I'm going to become an Uber driver and then I'm going to... Please excuse my German accent. I've actually never heard one before. This is really dope. It sounds like a new character in the next Black Panther. They have a German character. He has the strength of the Black Panther.

So this guy, and that's what he does now, and in order to improve his English. And then he says, but what he also found was that he got to understand nuances about Americans. Because he was an Uber driver. Yeah, he could apply within the, you know, for his job. I was like oh wow that was for me the most interesting. That actually makes sense. Very interesting. I mean I think there's an easier way to do it but I mean hey man kudos to him. Maybe not many people earn money from their English lessons. Yeah okay. You know what I mean? Yeah maybe. That's like a pretty slick way to do it. Yeah it doesn't. German efficiency., it really is. I always wanted to be an Uber driver. That was my dream.

But you've been a taxi driver. True. Yeah. But I wanted to be an Uber driver. Why? So I love driving. You do. So, okay, here was the limitation. So the limitation of being a taxi driver in South Africa is, and for those listening, if you don't understand, taxis in South Africa are different to taxis in most parts of the world in that here when we say taxi we mean like a mini bus that travels on a predetermined route. So for me it felt a little restrictive. I couldn't turn wherever I wanted to turn. I couldn't like, you know what I mean, I want to be free, Kaya. I want to be doing my thing, man. Like a taxi. So I've always wanted to be-

My Uber driver was free, but he wasn't taking me on. That's who I wanted to be. I wanted to be the guy backing up on the highway. No, I don't know why. I always wanted to be like a, you know what it also is? I, okay, I love driving. Um, and I also like, like efficient driving. I don't know how to explain it, but I, I love the idea of getting people to the place they're supposed to be in the best way possible with the least stress possible.

Oh okay. You know. So far. Do you like driving? I love driving. One of my favorite things to do is to drive. It's quite far so I really do enjoy driving from Joburg to the Eastern Cape by myself. You know I thought your answer was gonna be no because of how many accidents you've had. But I haven't had many accidents. How many accidents have you had? Maybe two. Maybe two? Yeah. In fact the first accident I had was a taxi driver hit me. Okay. But there was and the second one was also another taxi driver in Cape Town. How are you forgetting you crashing into the back of Fulisa's car? Oh yeah, okay, I don't count that.

This guy only counts accidents that happen to him. Yo, let me tell you what Kaya did, right? Kaya had just got a car. Your first car was a Mercedes Benz C-Class. This guy had never driven in his life. How old is he? How old are you then? I'm like 31, 32.

That's the first time you drove? Yes. Okay. This is the first time this guy drives. So you even had the three accidents in half the amount of time. That's what you're saying. Basically. Okay.

I made up for it. Just checking. So the guy gets a Mercedes Benz C-Class first car, right? Him and Olisa are driving. They're going to some party somewhere. Olisa's also got a brand new car, Mercedes Benz E-Class. Yeah, convertible. Convertible.

Two of them driving together, having a good time, music going, ladies loving the drive, hey, hey, good time, good time. What happens? Next thing we just get a message in the group chat, ah, guys, we so like who's we me and Kaya and we're like ah but you guys are in different cars he's like exes like exactly so it turns out Kaya it drove straight into the back of police and what police are always forgets to mention is the fact that he brakes suddenly because he was, there was someone in the passenger seat was directing him and she forgot to tell him no turn here.

So he brakes like, oh, so he slammed the brakes. He slammed the brakes. But you went following the distance. But also like, okay, the car had dystonic whitewatt. Oh, your car? Yeah. Also, you trusted the car to do the thing. Okay. And it always did. But the problem, can I tell you what the problem was? Yeah. Is that three days before it had said dystonic malfunctioning. Take it. And I was like, I'll take it. I'll take it tomorrow. I kept saying tomorrow. And then I had the accident. So yeah. And then did you take it? You know what I would have done if I was you I would have taken it to the dealership and be like guys What happened here? I had the distronic on and it didn't stop

That's what I would have done. Yes, so those are my exited. I'm assuming the insurance paid out because now you're admitting to things No, but I mean that's still that's still you insured for. Yeah, I'm insured. He tried to break, but he was too late to break. Yeah, and it's an accident. That's what you get insured for. Yes. An accident, you know?

But not negligence. Yeah, not negligence. Well, that's what you get insured for in countries where the insurance pays. In America, actually, how is there car insurance? Do we know? In America? Yeah?

I have no idea. Because I mean, I know like health insurance, as we we know Luigi has shown us it's not great. Yeah. And then fire insurance we saw what happened. In California. Yeah where they like started pulling it from people. Which by the way I still think is one of the greatest scams in life right? Is that insurance companies can pull out of a market because they're like we're not making money And no one seems to ask the question, is the purpose of your business to make money or to insure people?

Well, do you get what I'm saying? Yes. Look, I know, I know people will be like, yeah, but it's a business. I'm like, no, no, no, but wait. But I'm saying, when we start with priority, the first thing, it's interesting to me that insurance companies can pull out of markets because they're no

longer going to make money. Yeah, Coke doesn't change the recipe if it's more expensive to make Coke in that area. That's what I mean. They continue to make Coke. Their job is to make money from Coke. Yeah, but they're supposed to make- So their job is to make money from insuring people. They just go, no, it's no more long.

We're just going to remove those clauses. But now they're like, oh no, now we won't make as much money. Then I'm like, yeah, but you're supposed to insuring people. They just go, no it's normal. But now they're like, oh no, now we won't make as much money. Then I'm like, yeah but you're supposed to insure people. Isn't the purpose of your business insurance? And also like, isn't it like, it's a bet, right? Because they say, because the whole thing, I remember, I don't know if I saw this already somewhere, where someone said the purpose of insurance, the company says, right? Yes. I bet you, your house won't catch fire. And you say, I bet you my house won't catch fire and just I bet you my house will right and so what you do is that like now you keep you paying right

because as long as you don't catch any fire your bet you like I told you that's actually crazy it's a bet it's not and all of a sudden now my house catches fire the bet has come right yeah the bet has come right now you have to pay me because I win now I have a totally different idea. Now that I have that idea, the next time I claim from insurance, I'm going to go into the office cheering. Yes! I told you! I told you! Yeah! Yeah! Whose house is this? Well, I don't have one anymore, but do you know what I mean? I told you! Yeah. So I thought that was such a great concept.

Describe what insurance is. I feel like all, it is a great concept. I feel like all, not all, I don't want to be broad. I feel like many businesses in America and then starting to go around the world are now less focused on being a good business and more focused on making the money. Oh, 100%. And I know some people would say, yeah, but that's what business is. And I don't agree. I don't think that's what business should be. I think it can be the byproduct of doing something

well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like even to what you're saying with like Uber drivers and stuff, we love to blame the people who are delivering the food or driving us around, et cetera. But if we're honest about it, this is a byproduct of a company that's growing at an insanely rapid rate. And so then what all these companies do is they slowly over time reduce the qualifications that people need to become a driver. So in the beginning, I remember when like Uber started and all these things started,

it was like, oh, you have to have this and your car has to be inspected in a certain way. And now you get into a car and you're just like, yo man, how did you get to me? Exactly. No, but I mean, you know, I remember the first time, I don't know if anyone here remembers the first time they use an Uber app. Yeah, I remember the first time. I remember the very first time they were going to be launching Uber in South Africa and they

invited me to the launch, which was nice. Okay, great. And then- Because they knew you weren't a driver or do you drive it? No, I had. Okay, you were driving by this time. Yeah. And so my car then happened like that week or two, you know, happened to go to a service

or two to a service. And then I was like, ah, let me try this Uber thing. So I opened and I was like, oh my goodness, it's showing me the guy's face, the registration, the car, how far he is. This was revolutionary to me. I was like, this is incredible. And anyway, he arrived, he gets out of the car, there's only Uber blacks at the time. They used to open the door. And they used to open

the door for you. They had water and mints in the back seats. And then they close the door for you. And I was like, this is incredible. I was so impressed by them. And to such an extent that I don't know if you know my friend Unzinga. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she sees me being dropped off at Sizwa's, um, a Capello. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm being dropped off. Uber driver comes out, opens the door. So when she sees me, she says, Kaya, and she genuinely thought this.

Genuinely. She said, Kaya, are you a spy? And I'm like, so I was jokingly, I said, yeah, I'm a spy. And she believed like so I was jokingly I said yeah I'm a spy and should believe this for the longest time. No ways. Uber was so prestigious, so pristine that they've taken away all the nice things but the price remains the same. But that's the business model. That's what all these companies have done. Download capitalism. No but that's what all these companies have done in the especially especially from Silicon Valley, right?

Their business model is grow as quickly as possible, get as much money as you can, scale as fast as you can, and then most importantly, decimate the competition. So you come in, you price the product way lower than the rest of the market. So that's what they did in most markets was they killed the taxi prices. So in New York, in London, in Germany and other places they did that. Then some cities fought back, you know. And then once they owned the market, then they start hiking the prices. And to make things worse, they start throttling the drivers. So now if you drive an Uber, there were many people who bought Ubers because they were promised like, oh, if I buy the car, I'm going to earn this much a year. They used to have like

guarantees on billboards even. They say earn a minimum, guaranteed, a, oh, if I buy the car, I'm gonna earn this much a year. They used to have like guarantees on billboards even. They'd say earn a minimum, guaranteed, a minimum of, and I think at the time it was like $75,000, $80,000 a year. And then once they had enough capacity and they had a stranglehold in the market, then they started ditching drivers. You don't earn as much from a ride. Surge pricing changes, the riders pay more.

And now we're all dependent on it. And this is why we should never allow monopolies to take place. You know, like that, it's interesting because businesses always have this grand philosophy about why it exists. There's no profits when you're looking at their vision statement as a company. No, nothing. But the ultimate reason they exist is to make a profit, not really to provide the best service that they came to want to provide.

Yeah, I think to be fair, many of the people who started these companies in Silicon Valley, I think believed in the beginning that they were setting out on a noble mission. I genuinely believe that. But it's very hard to beat Wall Street. Oh yeah, that's very true. As soon as your company is a publicly listed company, all you're doing is trying to maximize shareholder value and that's it. Like your mission is no longer to your customers.

Your mission is to the shareholders, right? And so I think fundamentally it's like, hey man. is your mission is to the shareholders, right? And so I think fundamentally it's like, hey man. I mean, it's pretty sad because, you know, there's actually, there's a flip. Man, why did I switch off my phone? Yeah, well, you must switch off your phone. You're addicted to your phone.

There is a great quote that I actually- You must switch off your phone. I'm glad we brought you here. This is actually an intervention. This has nothing to do- My phone is on. I can Google for you what you want me to do. This has nothing to do with the,

you thought this was a podcast. We were just hosting an intervention to stop Kaya from being on his phone. Yo, this guy, I checked his phone the other day. 15 hours of screen time a day. Oh my guys, do you know how many hours are in a day? There's 24 in case you're wondering. Okay, I found it. What's the quote? The quote is by Carl Sagan. Let me just go quickly. Carl Sagan. Let me find. So I don't know if Carl Sagan was just like a physicist. And he says, I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time when the United States is a service and information economy, when nearly all manufacturing industries have slipped away to other industries, when all some technological powers are in the hands of very few and no one representing

the public interest can even grasp the issues. When the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or unknowledgably question those in authority. When clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide almost without noticing back into superstitious darkness. The dumbing down of America, so this is not just about America, I think it's about the whole world really. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content and in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bite, thank goodness your podcast is way longer than that, now down to 10 seconds or less lowest common denominator programming,

credulous representations, presentations, or pseudoscience and superstitions, but especially of a kind of celebration of ignorance. So, and he wrote this in 1995. So, before we talk about the quote, can I just say, normally when people say there's a quote I love, what they mean is like... To be or not to be? Yeah, it's normally like every dog has his day. That's what I thought the quote was going to be. This man just read us a chapter and said, you know, there's a, there's a quote that I love guys. It's called Genesis from the Bible. It really was. Okay, this is what, this is what like maybe I, I never really understood this about you because you are a paradox.

For a person who loves social media as much as you do, you also love the antitheses of social media as much as you do. You know what I mean? Cause you've written books and you read books, but you also have 15 hours of screen time. And that's, that's terrible because I don't spend as much time reading as I used to. Oh, so it's affected you as well. Exactly. Because I don't read as much as I used to.

And I don't think that like reading like little snippets is not, I don't, because it doesn't delve into the subject matter. No, it doesn't. And it's like, it's the same thing as watching something on TikTok where you get like, you know, pseudo knowledge. Yeah. You know, where you kind of suddenly feel that, oh, I'm well-informed because, well, I found out that for the first time that actually the planets don't revolve in one, you know, it's an oval. But I don't know why that happens. But then, you know. I was worried when they said TikTok was going to be banned, but I was happy because I thought you would like live a new life. Actually, this year I am... Don't even finish that sentence, you're gonna lie. I am trying, attempting to be actively, to try and read more than I did. Okay, that one I can.

I thought you were gonna say something like I'm gonna use social media less. No, no, I definitely want to read it a lot. Did you guys know by the... The only one is on your phone. Yeah. This guy, this guy is, you know when you talk about like deeply entrenched in social media Kaya Langer the man I'm sitting opposite now was the first African to have Correct me if I'm wrong a million views on YouTube. Yeah ever guys

Before yo before we knew what YouTube was as a thing. This is like maybe 2006 2007. Yeah, this guy Kaya on YouTube and he was loving it and he was killing it. Yeah, man, that was... And why did you stop by the way? It... Twitter. Couldn't put your phone down. Also, you know, actually, actually what happened as well was that I got asked to start writing

columns and so... In newspapers? Yeah, in newspapers. You really are. You just oscillate between like old school, new school, old school. You're like, guys, I'm leaving YouTube. Why? There's this new thing called the newspaper column and I have to step into it, guys.

Kaya, where are you going? Guys, it's the future. Trust me now. These newspaper columns, I think everyone in the world is gonna be reading this. But Kaya, you've got a million people on on YouTube. Yes, but there's 22,000 on the newspaper who might want to hear what I have to say. What a grand decision. So literally that's what happened and I was like, oh flip, I have this, cause I have to have an opinion about something this week. Yeah.

You know, and then I, that's like, I just didn't have the time. You know, maybe YouTube wasn't paying you at the time. Oh no, they went actually. Oh yeah, there was no money on YouTube. YouTube was paying you. And it took a long time for them to pay anyone outside of America. Oh yeah, that's true. And then Africa came very, I was like, ah, okay, what's the point? I even got an email from Steve Chen, who was one of the co-founders of YouTube. Crazy.

So, because there was this, because YouTube used to do this thing where if they thought a video was like incredible, they would put it like on the front page. Oh yeah, they used to do like a featured video. Featured, now when you were on the front page of YouTube, it used to do like a featured video. Yeah yeah. When you were on the front page of YouTube it was like a thing. You were you'd made it and I was on the front page and I was like wow I wake up I'm getting all the subscribers. I was like what's going on what's going on and I happened to be and well the first African you know to be featured. So I get in and all these big youtubers obviously they they see you, you've been featured.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all start mailing you and they want to collaborate. And it was like this crazy freaking thing. And then Steve Chen sent me an email saying that, um, you know, uh, it's some along the lines. It's so great to see people from other parts of the world contributing to the conversations and being creative in very different ways, you know, to, yeah, yeah. To Americans. And we love having you here and I've watched like a lot of your videos. And I was like, God damn, so I sent him an email and I was like, responded well.

I was like, this is the first email I ever got from a billionaire. And that's all I had to say to him. And he's like, ah, he's had a billionaire. Because I think, I think they just sold to Google. I'm not sure, but I think, or they were about to, but one of the two. So I, yeah, it was crazy that I just got an email from freaking Steve Chan. Yeah. I like, yeah. Yeah. But your life is littered with that. I was, you know, I was thinking the other

day, I was like, you are, if someone, if someone was to ask me, they'd go like, you know, who is Kaya or what is it about Kaya that fascinates you guys? People will always speak to Kaya as If they've always known you they'll speak to you like you'll always find yourself in a conversation with a stranger and I've always wondered like is that is that how your life has always been or Was that something you noticed or something? Is it something you worked on? Is it something? I don't think there's anything that I noticed until people said, so I didn't know it was

a thing. Yeah. For example, my brother, you know, my late brother, he used to say, when I was younger and used to visit me in Cape Town, I lived in Cape Town, he'd say, damn it, I hate walking with you. Because if we're going to the mall, let's say we're going to Cavalier Square when I was in Cape Town, and they'd be like, oh, god damn it, we're gonna have to, you're gonna be stopped by people, you're gonna start chatting to everybody there and all of that. And I didn't know this. And do you know when I noticed that, maybe I do stop and talk to a lot of people along the way was when I

started hanging out a lot with who? Kholisa. Kholisa because now for the first time I was the one had to wait. That's so funny. Now I was like, oh flip this is what people mean when they say that I stop and talk. You know what you do? You stop and you speak to everybody and everybody speaks to you. And I want, do you think you got it from your grandfather? Cause like, tell me a little bit about your grandfather. Cause I know, I know like some of the loose stories we've shared here and there, but like who was your grandfather? Wow.

My grandfather, his name, if you're South African, right? And you're trying to give someone a job and just like you have to read someone's name and say why it's only job. Yes. My grandfather received, would get the job. Yes. And just like you have to read someone's name and it's a wife only job. Yes. My, my grandfather received would get the job. Okay. Because his name was Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Wow.

Alfred Kaiser, like the German Kaiser. Like the German Kaiser. Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Yes. B-O-Y-C-E. So that's from my mom. Yeah. From my, from my mom.

I know, right? Damn. It sounds very fancy, right? No, it really does. Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Send in Alfred Kaiser Boyce. He sounds like a German Uber driver in America.

Actually. So, wait, wait, where did he get that name? So he got that name from, well, they gave him Alfred Kaiser because he went to school. So like back in, you know, because in the 20s, so the school they gave him the white teachers. Yeah, the same way Mandela got Nelson. Nelson, yes. Wait, so did your grandfather also have, because Nelson we know had Rolila, that was his name, then they were like, no, no, you're Nelson, buddy. I don't. Did your grandfather have? No, he was always, I always knew him as Alfred Kaizer Boy. He didn't have any other name.

But surely he was given another name when he was born. This is a good question. I have no idea, because all his sisters have, in fact, one of his sisters, her name is hilarious. Ngunofo. Ngunofo? Ngunofo. Ngunofo? Ngunofo. Basically means the fourth one. Her name would be four. Imagine your parents calling you just a number. First kid, um, okay, Stephanie. That's why, was nervous. Nervous. Okay. But like for example, like I didn't know her name until the funeral.

Because you know, in the village, like you're saying like, you didn't know all the people's names. You just didn't know what their names were. All they knew was like, okay, the grandchild from there, and that's their name. So when the parents sent you, they'd be like, um, like they'll never say like, you call me like, say, go to they'd be like um like they'll never say like you call me like say go to Patricia's house no they would never yeah they'll say go to Trevor's house and talk to Trevor's mom and say this is what I want I struggle to explain this to my let's say my American friends or any of my Western friends because I'll meet their parents right and

oftentimes I say it's white people and then they'll go hey Trevor how you doing and I'll be like oh nice to meet you meet you, Mr. Johnson, or whatever. And they'll be like, oh, come on, my name is Brad. And I'm like, yes, Mr. Johnson. Yeah. Then they get angry. Yeah. Like, hey, hey, I'm not, my father was Mr. Johnson.

I'm Brad. Then I'm like, no, your son is Peter. You are Mr. Johnson. Yes. Or I will then call you Peter's father. Yeah. And it's hard to explain it because where we come from, you never referred to an older person by their name.

You didn't even know their name. You didn't know their name. And so everything was in relation to, so you would go, oh, hello, Kaya's aunt. Exactly. Oh, hello, Kaya's grandmother. Yes. Oh, hey, Kaya's father.

Yes. How are you today? You know what I mean? So my grandfather, he was not the chief in the village, but he was... He controlled all the cattle in the village, not just the village. And just to create some of the imagery here for you, when Kaya says village, I've learned now like some people, you know, I have friends now from England because I've moved up in the world. And they grew up in villages world and they've they grew up they grew up in villages as well but it's not village like we all know. All right so when if

you're trying to picture village here if you've watched Black Panther before they go through the magical dome that covers Wakanda you know how like Wakanda looks but before the spaceship flies through that dome, this is where Kaya grew up. So he's on the outside of the dome. He's on the outside of the dome before the technology. He's with like the cows and the sheep and like the mud huts. And this is how you grew up.

I just want people to understand this. So when you say the village, no plumbing, no plumbing, no nothing. Yeah. And all of the mud huts. So when you say village, this is the village you mean. So he was a custodian of all the cattle, I'd say around maybe four or five villages around us. And so if anyone, like let's say Trevor, one of your cows gives birth, you had to come and report and say that my cow so

and so is giving birth and then my grandfather registered the cow. So he was the DMV of cows. Yes. That's what he was. That's what he was. Yeah. Yeah. So register the cow. Yeah. If a cow died you had to come and tell him. Yeah that's a write-off. Yeah. When your cause a wreck you have to report it to the government as well. Yeah. Yeah. So he was this guy in the village and so he has like this, you know, authority in because he, I mean, cows are worth and now he's controlling the wealth of the village. If you could say that. That's really powerful. Yeah. So he was very powerful. And so a lot of people would come to him for, you know, counsel for advice and you know, all sorts of things. My home was very busy, so it was never quiet because of this.

Ah, okay. And- You see, this is starting to explain a little bit. It's because now that you're saying it, because, and then, I mean, because there are dogs in the house with a gate and people are scared of the dogs, so they'd call my name, Kale Tu. Then I'd have to freaking get out of the house, go open the gate, fetch whoever is. Yes.

So when I was walking anywhere with my grandparents, people would be talking to them. And obviously because they wanted to be seen to be nice to the children too. They would speak to you as well. They would speak to me as well. And I suspect that's probably what kind of, I gained that kind of, but also a village is like everybody talks to everybody. And maybe And I suspect that's probably what kind of I gained that kind of,

but also a village is like everybody talks to everybody. And maybe I still have that kind of mentality. Yeah, you do. You do. Where it's like, okay, um, oh, there's so and so I'll say hi because I know them. No, not you. You don't talk to them for a reason. You just talk to people for the sake of. Yeah, you just talk to them because they're there. Because they're there. And I think that's probably where I get that from. And maybe that's why in like most of my books, I kind of, I can't help but write about the village. Which I love.

Yeah. It's a lot more profound for me than on the surface. You know, when you go, we greet people just because they're there. You know, I often think to myself, one of the things I miss most when I'm not in South Africa is the fact that we all acknowledge each other. I mean, even in the smallest ways, you know, our greetings are plural. Yes. You walk into a room, you greet everybody.

Sanbonani. I see all of you. Yes. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It's Moloeni, you know, it's like for everyone. We see all of you, you know, and, and you don't realize how beautiful that is as a

concept until you don't have it really. And you travel the world and in many places, people get into an elevator, you know, a lift and they don't greet anybody and people get into a bus, nobody greets anybody, people get into the train. In New York, when I first got there, I greeted people when I first get on the train. Kaya, I've never seen, you know, like, you know, if you want to be a creep, step into the subway and then when the doors close, be like, hello, hello. Dude, I was such a creep. But I didn't know that you the doors close, be like, hello, hello.

Dude, that was such a creep. But I didn't know that you're not, you just, it's almost frowned upon, you know? And it's such a wonderful feeling to be seen. Yeah. It's very different. It's almost, you know, when you actually said, you know, San Ibuwane, when he, I actually, I don't know if I'm thinking about this or I've seen it or read it somewhere, but it's almost like when he says, Sanibwona, because if I'm saying the one greeting you, right? Sanibwona, it sounds like I am, because it is me who's saying Sanibwona. So I'm saying we see you, right?

So it almost feels like I'm saying me and my ancestors and everybody who comes with me sees you. So we greeting you, right? So that's why I think what you just said is very profound that our greetings are plural, right? So it's everybody who comes before me also observes who you are as a human being. Whereas like in the in the in the Western culture it's starting to creep in well you know people are studying not to greet and all of that but what usually happens so like I'm busy and I run into you and I'm asking for directions I woke up to say so I don't know who you are you're a stranger and I come to you and I say and then

you know we'll put KFC and then be like, and then you, all the people love doing this to you. And they'll be like, and they greet you. Oh, and you're like, oh man, they are really saying that, oh, you didn't greet me basically by saying that they're forcing the greeting. And then now you come down and you have to greet them. How are you? I'm fine. Fine. Thank you. All right. Oh, what did you want? Oh, okay and you have to greet them. How are you? I'm fine, fine, thank you.

All right, oh, what did you want? Oh, okay, directions to KFC. And then they start offering you, you know, the directions. And they tell you they don't know where it is. Yeah. So, and I think there's something really actually very, very profound about that. I think we take it for granted because we live here and experience it but every single person including white people they always say when they go overseas and they come back to South Africa they talk about how it

is they're like you know what I miss about South Africa? Yeah. They said people don't greet everyone like they don't greet anyone else and here we do. I think one of the more beautiful aspects of South African culture, holistically, is that we're a culture of seeing people. So a simple example I noticed was three different versions of the same thing. When I was in India, I live in New York, and then I'll come to South Africa. It's the way people respond to homeless people. In India, people either completely ignore a homeless person

or they do this hand thing where they dismiss them. Like hardcore, for me it's hardcore. Obviously it's an Indian thing so I'm not judging it, but it's just like, I was like, wow, damn, that's hardcore, you know? In New York, people won't even look at somebody. So there'll be like a homeless person on the street and asking for money and people just walk past.

They don't make eye contact. You're voided at all costs. And it's crazy to say this, but I found myself being really proud of South Africa because when I would come back after being away for long stints, I realized how like people would look at homeless people and greet them, not give them money always. I'm not saying it's like everyone here is like super altruistic or anything. And then the funny thing is they would even have a conversation with the homeless person.

You know, so let's say a homeless person will come to your window and then they'll be like, hey, hello, poza, anything, anything. Then you'd be like, ah, nothing, nothing. I remember once, this is one of the funniest conversations I've ever had. It changed how I drive by the way, because now I always have like, I'll always have

some change in the car or something, just because of this guy. I'll never forget this. I'm driving my car and I think I was driving a Range Rover at the time and I get to the traffic lights and the guy comes to the window. Then he's like, hey, hello, Bozza, hello, anything, please, hello, anything. And I was like, ah, nothing, Baba, sorry, nothing, nothing. Then he's like, nothing. I was like, no.

Then he's like, ah, you finished it on the car. Yo, bro. Bro, the way he said it, the way he said it, he's like, yeah, no, hey, just finish on the car now, eh? Yeah, hey, I'm sure it's tough now. Brian, he just, and he didn't like judge, he didn't fight with me, he didn't anything. Just had like the rest of a conversation with me. When I drove away, maybe it's because of like, you know, I know this is going to sound strange, but in a weird way, because he saw me, he reminded me that I have to see him.

Oh, wow. That's very true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. He reminded me that I have to see him. Oh wow. That's very true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like he actually reminded me that like, yo man, just because the guy is homeless, just because the guy is begging for money, doesn't mean he's not a human being. You'd be like, sorry, like I don't have, you know, and they'll say, oh sure, next time. They do say that. Yeah, oh sure, next time.

And they're like, yeah, next time. But like... Yeah. Yeah. They have an acknowledgement of the fact that you could also be going through something that means you don't necessarily have disposable income at this moment in time. Yeah. That's very true, actually.

It's very... It's incredible. There's actually... I've never experienced that in another country. I've never, ever experienced in a country where someone asked me for money and I don't have... And you know, now it's worse because we're cashless. Yeah. Yeah.

But I've never experienced that where I go, I don't have anything on me. Only in South Africa will a person say, I know it's fine. You know what? Maybe next time you'll, good luck to you, my man. Except for that. I don't know why I think I mentioned this to you a few days ago. This tweet, right? There's someone who tweeted about the intersection.

Intersection and the traffic lights weren't working. Or robots, traffic lights. They're not working. And the guy's directing traffic. And so it goes to the guy, you know, at the front of, you know, the guy in front. And kind of asking for money. And the guy says, so I don't have money. What? The guy was talking. This homeless guy with his groundless fingers just put his fingers in this guy's mouth.

He would put his fingers down this guy and this guy tweeted about this experience and basically he's like he doesn't know what to do because this guy just freaking shoved his fingers down. Because I wasn't giving him money. That was like, yeah, that was, I mean, I mean, that never happens, but it happens once in a while. But it's my favorite, my favorite story. It's terrible. Favorite thing I've had this year. What would you do? You know, it's one of those things where I... I think I'd drive off, but I... No, I'm saying what would you do as it happens though? As it happens.

So would you close your mouth? I would suck so I'd make him uncomfortable. Oh my god! You think so? That's what you think you would do. This is you behind the microphone. Never. At that time, I think the first thing I would think about is like, let me not swallow. I need to find the closest garage I need to go to. I promise you that's what I've been thinking about and it sounds terrible and elitist but

I would be thinking like I need to go and get mouthwash. Should I go to my doctor? I don't know. But I think. No I would a random stranger do that right? That's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say yeah the fact that the person's homeless might be a slight heightening of it, but I think it's the stranger. But also, like, it doesn't matter where it is. It's so random. Why? That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

Why would you do that to me? I think it's more just about a stranger. Because if I was on a train, even if I was in an airplane and someone walked past my row and then said to me, excuse me, can I have your drink? And I was like, no. And while I was still talking, they put their fingers in my mouth. I would have the exact same reason. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, they wouldn't pull their hand out of my mouth. And I'd be like, oh, at least they weren't homeless. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't think that's true. It's more, it's more the stranger and the fingers that come with that stranger going into your mouth. What if they were from economy? I mean, that's sort of like homeless. Can I tell you what's funny about this? It's just like how powerful the human mind is. Is that like, and not to get too graphic, but it's funny how people will go out, put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met.

Like they'll go to a club or a restaurant or a bar. They'll put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met. Right? They will go home with that person and then put their mouth in other places on that person. Okay But then if somebody comes and put their fingers in your mouth because you didn't choose it This is how powerful consent is as a concept. Wow, that is very true Yeah, because if you if you you chose it now, it's not crazy Yeah, because I don't know surely you've had those strangersest fingers in your mouth but technically you have no but they're not

a stranger at the top how long have you known them maybe a couple hours you see you see so it's like yeah we had a conversation it's all just in the mind there was consent like you said yeah no it's all about consent so now they're like because now I'm like, what is in their finger? Like, what's there? Right. Doesn't matter. The mouth is a really you'll be shocked at what your mouth can handle. You can clip that, by the way. You can put it somewhere. For me, but it's true.

I think the worst part of that story would be. If I liked it. I think that's the best part of the story or something. Why is that the worst part? That would be the best part. You'd have to tell people that you thought. No, you don't have to tell anybody that you liked it. But now you know which intersection you're driving to every single week. Hoping. You just be there all the time. Your window. Just window down, mouth wide open. I have no money. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Of everyone I had ever known in my life, you were the only person, and I mean the only

person I knew who was closely following American politics, A, before it became, like let's say popular for lack of a better word, and before I went and did The Daily Show. And I was watching The Daily Show. Yeah, you were watching The Daily Show before I knew what The Daily Show even was as a concept. Like when I said, I remember when I said, I'm going to do an episode of The Daily Show, you lost, like you lost your mind, you were like, wow, wow, this is so great.

And I was like, all right, I guess. Cause I had, by that time I had appeared on Jay Leno, I had appeared on Letterman. I'd known of those more. Yeah. But you were just like the daily show. Like when did your passion for American history and politics begin? Like why?

Because this wasn't a thing that's popular in South Africa. You know what I mean? It's not like it was a trend. Well, I think it's because I was such a loner as a child. It still doesn't explain, Kaya. OK, I'll explain. A lot of kids, I was alone. You know what I did? I played Mario Brothers. You know what I'm saying? I didn doesn't explain Kaya. Oh, God, I'll explain. A lot of kids. I was alone. Do you know what I did?

I played Mario Brothers. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I didn't sit at home and go like, hmm, I wonder what Richard Nixon thought before Watergate happened. No. Okay. I was playing Mario Brothers.

No, I think it's because it was reading. So, but how do you get to those books? I also read a lot. The Wind in the Willows. Yeah. Okay. Little Prince, Dr. Seuss. What kind of child growing up in a village?

Remember, you, where people had pets like cats and dogs, you were on a first name basis with sheep and cows. That's true. No, and that's true. So you were like rolling with sheep and cows. And then you go, and I'm also going to really get into Reagan and Nixon and Bill Clinton. Then I had to go to the township, you know, so like at 13. So I'm living with my mother and then my mom kind of starts saying important things are really happening in this country.

Like Mandela and all, and so she starts, she literally forces me to start reading the newspaper. In fact, in my school, like, I was the only black kid in my class, for example, and then in the school of about 800 or 900 kids, there must have been five, six black kids, you know, in the school when they... Did you know all of them? In the night, the black kids. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, at school, yes.

Yeah, but I'm saying, did you know them? Yeah. Were they male or female? They were, I think they were both. Yeah, definitely both genders. Did you date, did anyone try and set you up with them? No, I was too young. So, nobody kind of tried to do anything at the time. So we, yeah.

And then the school library, because I was always in the library, there was, and before the library opened, I would go and read the newspaper, the daily dispatch, and I just go and read and read and read until 7 o'clock and the school started at 7.30. And then I read the newspaper until 7.30. But Kaya, sorry to cut you off there. Yeah. You could barely speak English.

Yes, because I'd learned to speak English three years before. But you were reading everything in English. Yes, I was reading everything in English. This is really inspiring to me. Time Magazine and Newsweek and then I'd read. So okay, so you go to a new school? Yeah, I go to a new school. Okay, I see what happened here. So this moves from the village. Now you've learned English two years ago. You're in an English school. They've got Time Magazine.

They've got Time Magazine, they've got Newsweek. Okay. And I used to read Guffield. I used to read Guffield. Oh, you did? Because they had Guffer in the newspaper. I like that you were like a full-time adult, part-time kid, essentially. And then they'd have the newsweek and then politics.

I was like, who's this Bill Clinton guy? Okay. Oh, interesting. And then I'd read about him and Hillary Clinton and George Bush and all of those guys. I'm like, oh, Ross Perot. And I'm like, wow, this is fascinating. And so then that gets me like a lot very interested

in American history. And then I think what also got me into it was because the OJ Simpson trial happened. And then I was fussed. I could not wait for Newsweek or Time magazine every week. And I'd be there reading about the trial because they detailed information about this trial. You are 13 years old while this is happening. Yeah.

And so I'm reading this case and I'll never forget like I got the highest mark for an oral in the history of the school thanks to this for me reading just randomly reading and I'll tell you how this happened. So I had the OJ Simpson trial was going to happen and then he was acquitted. And our teacher gives the entire class assignment and she says, okay class, this is your subject, a controversial subject. Whatever you choose, everybody does the things, abortion, it is, you know, you know, any subject, all of those things.

Right. And then I go and I speak on like the following day, I'm the first one to speak, you know, in front of the class. And I start off and I say, and I start off by reciting what the jury said, you know, in front of the class and I sat off and I said, and I sat off by reciting what the jury said, you know, the beginners are like, with the jury, find the defendant or entail James Simpson, not guilty of the above and titled action, penal code, whatever, of the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being, right? And then I say, it's very fascinating to me that white Americans, I say this specifically,

and now remember my entire class is white, except for two other black kids in the class. And they say, it's fascinating to me that white people believe, conveniently believe that you are innocent until proven guilty. But they're so angry that OJ Simpson has been found not guilty of this. But at the same time, why is it so important for him to be guilty if they believe that you are innocent and proven guilty? And I must have spoken for a minute and a half making that statement when my classmates started interjecting, asking me questions, just like, no, but Kai, you can't say that. He used to hit her and cops would come as I guess I understand.

That's true. What he was doing was terrible. It should not be, no one should be hitting anybody. It's evil, da-da-da, and so on. But it doesn't mean that he did kill her, right? So according to the evidence that was presented and what the jury said, they said he is not guilty. So, and the teacher also asking me questions, the period ended. I didn't finish my oral. So I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to get zero because then the next period comes. I mean, like the next day someone else and someone else and I said, miss, I didn't finish my oral. So or so no it's fine and then I got like 100 percent and she said because your subject was so controversial that everyone got involved that everyone got involved it never

happened with anybody else and it was because I had so much specific detailed information that I could give everybody answers because I was reading this about this trial every week okay but now do you think OJ did it or do you still think he was innocent? I don't know. I really don't know if he did it. But what do you think? What do I think? I'm not saying you know.

What do I think? Because nobody knows. Because I understand 13 year old Kai was like this man is innocent. No, no, I suspect that. There was a 13 year old. I suspect that. Parading through the school was like, this man is innocent. No, no, I suspect that. There was a 13 year old. I suspect that. Parading through the school and was like, this man is innocent. You know, like. He's the Nelson Mandela of football in America.

No, but I struggle to think that he was, he did it. Okay. So you like now. Based on the trial I was following at the time. I struggle. But now become assuming you've watched OJ made in America. Yeah, made in America. Yeah.

Now when I when I watched that, and I'm like, hmm, but I don't know what the perspective was right? Because someone is saying something from a different lens. Yeah. Okay. So they have a perspective when they're making that. But when I think about 13 year old me, I was like, I don't think he did it. But after watching that documentary was like, I think he did it. After watching that documentary. Okay, so that's how I got to American. No, no, no. Yeah, I'm loving it. And, and, and so that's, that actually prompts a question that I have for you.

This is, this is a puzzle that I've been playing with in my head. Oh, sorry, quickly. Sorry. Don't forget your puzzle. But also another thing, uh, how I learned, this is crazy. How I learned which city is in, is in each state in America was by watching at the time it was WWF Wrestling. Because they would say from Austin, Texas, Stone Michaels. And then his song was called From Detroit, Michigan, Big Daddy Cool Diesel. And I was like, Michigan, big daddy cool diesel.

And I was like, oh, and I literally learned, oh, okay. But I didn't know what was the state. I tried to figure out what is the thing they mentioned first and the thing they mentioned second. And then I figured out, oh, it's the state and it's the city and it's like. You know what makes this more impressive is that you're doing this pre-internet.

Pre-internet and post-village. Yeah, no, it's thoroughly impressive. Okay. But here, so here's the puzzle. And I think you, you, you, you are uniquely positioned to help me answer this. Cause I don't think we'll figure it out, but maybe, maybe we can, we can sort of get close to it. I was thinking the other day, often times when people exist in the time that they're

in, they are the worst people to judge the time that they're in, they are the worst people to judge the time that they're in. So nobody can judge the future because it hasn't happened. We can all judge the past if we're present, but the people of the present are the worst judges of the present because they're in it. And I think about this with everything that has happened in time. So you look at World War II, I'm often shocked at how most of the world,

especially the United States, didn't wanna do anything, even though Hitler was on his journey to wipe out Jewish people. Do you know what I mean? It's pretty crazy when you read, and then you see American articles from back then and they're like, oh yeah, we gotta let Germany be Germany and do their own thing and we're

not involved in what other countries are doing. We spoke to Hitler and he said, it's not that bad, so we're moving on. And you're just like, wait, this was an actual real thing. And now it seems completely obvious. But at the time they were like, no, we're making the prudent decision to not get involved in another war that doesn't involve us, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, there's countless examples throughout history, whether it's slavery, whether it's,

and obviously there's people for and against at the time, but it becomes hindsight that gives you a certain level of clarity that allows you to judge, I think, more accurately, but never perfectly because even it will change. And so the thing I've been playing with recently is, like, if you want to talk about a master class in branding, Trump does the thing that makes him look good. I almost think that, I don't know, but I feel like there are going to be two Trumps, right? The Trump of the first term and the Trump of the second presidency.

Damn, I'm loving this. You made me feel like Terminator 1 and 2. I'm not even joking. I don't know why when you said that in my head, I pictured Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. Terminator 1 was the bad guy and then Terminator 2 was now the good guy. So he's the the first one is like he is he didn't think was gonna win. I don't think he wanted to win You know the first time you know, but then now he's in this thing now. He's the president. Okay, great he has he's unprepared it as well, so and

But now he understands the levers of power. He just gets it. I mean, I remember reading something about what makes great politicians. Yeah. Like great politicians are great at stagecraft. So they understand, for them, they understand the theatre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're actors basically, that's what it was. I remember reading somewhere where someone was describing Mandela as a great actor. And they use that example when he walks out of the the prison trial and when he's found guilty

and he makes that speech and where he says, what's that speech? Remind me somebody, my diva speech, very famous at the end. Yeah, we all know it in the room. Come on, guys. We all know it. You're the guy who's going speech remind me somebody my diverse speech very famous at the end. Yeah, we all know it in the room Come on guys. We all know it you you the guy was gonna remind us Well, he basically was basically saying that well if you find me guilty Yeah, it is an ideal for which I am prepared It's an ideal. I want to live for but if needs I'm prepared to dive needs be something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but anyway, we'll play it We should just play. Yeah, I have

the idea of a democratic and free society in which all persons Will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities It is an idea for which I hope And It is an ideal for which I am prepared to die. And then when he walks out of the, he's, he's, you know, the last day of the trial, he's wearing his hostile tradition, warrior outfit, because he knows that he's going to come across as defined, every single picture in the world will have him as this guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's this kind of juxtaposition between like this, oppressed heroes fighting against these people dressed like this. And like just throughout his life. And I think that Donald Trump is a natural actor. He's phenomenal. I can't think of a single American politician in the history of the United States that's better at stagecraft than Trump.

No, I agree with you on that. For better or worse, but- No, just the stagecraft. One of the things I've heard about multiple people who've been in Trump's orbit is he, in a weird way, Trump is more honest about the game of American politics than most American politicians are. Okay, that is very true. Have you seen when Trump even said, when he'd be on stage, and he'd be like,

you know, folks, I can do it. They say he's not presidential. I can be presidential. I can be, it's so easy. I can stand here and say, oh, hello, everybody. So good to be here. I can do it, folks. You want me to be presidential?

I can be presidential. But in the craziest way, he was, that's what I think I find fascinating about the man, is that Trump says the thing that he's doing out loud, but the people don't hear it or process it. I think it's because it's so honest and transparent that they can't believe it's real. I don't know what it is. Because no one does it. You're not supposed to do that

Yeah, I guess and then he does it and then it's like, okay And and he likes to be liked he loves to be like I think this is number one drug and I think this is why this I Suppose a lot of these tech tech CEOs have figured out about him It's like just like him and then and then everything was fine Yo, well, I don't know if everything will be fine. Well I mean for you. Because here's the problem right? Yeah. Here's the problem. The one problem that I think people will face with Trump is this yes he likes to be liked but if everyone likes him and all these people have conflicting interests.

He needs an enemy as well. Yeah but even so if everyone likes him those people still have conflicts of interest with each other. Like they have conflicting interests. So now whose like comes before the other person's like. There's people who come and kiss the ring with Trump and then Trump is like, yeah, the stupid person came and kissed the ring. They came here.

They let me put my fingers in their mouth. You know what I mean? There's no guarantee. But like, I don't know. This is why I oscillate between the two thoughts. On the one hand, I think to myself, Trump has all of the ingredients to be a dictator. On the other hand, I go, his incessant need to be liked means he can't be a dictator. Yeah.

Because dictators can sort of operate outside of the realm of being liked. Yeah. Do you know what I mean outside of the realm of being liked. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. They don't care. Yeah, they go like, I don't care. Not that they don't care about it. No, they don't care.

They'll make you like him. No, because you think so? You'll act like him. No, I'm saying, like, you have to act like you like him. They'll make you like him. Oh, yeah, that's true. Do you know what I mean? But that's what I'm saying.

No, but that is what I'm saying. I'm saying there's two sides, right? You can love being liked so much that you have all the ingredients to be a dictator. So you go, I'm gonna create the reality that I exist in. That means I'm always liked. Or you can like being liked so much that you go like, I would never be a dictator

because I want the people to like me. And with him, you don't know. But what I do know is Americans firmly believe, and this is something I both love and also sometimes find amusing about America and Americans, is they truly believe it is impossible that it can happen in their country. And like impossible, Kyle. I mean, there are many countries that didn't think dictatorships in their countries and

it happened. I mean, I think, you know, speaking about Trump. I stand to be corrected on this, but I remember reading this once that like most dictators were voted in. Yeah, they were. People forget that they didn't take power. Yes. They were voted in and they just kept power. Putin was voted in. I mean, Mugabe was voted in. You think of anybody, they were voted in. What's fascinating to me about him is that I think maybe I'm wrong about that. He likes to be like, yes, he likes to be liked, but he likes to be liked by people

he disagrees with, but respects and craves their adoration. But I think that for him it's that. And I think that's why he like that these tech guys, he respects them because, well, they're rich, you know, they're running big companies. I also think it's oftentimes we forget that the way we're processing someone or something is in relation to us and the us can be anywhere, right? One of the more eye opening experiences I ever had was when I went to the Middle East

and I actually like really got to spend time there. And I was in Qatar and I was in the UAE, so Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and I was in Oman and all these places. And it was amazing to see how differently people thought about Trump there. Yeah. Like I thought in those places, people would hate Trump more than anyone

because Trump was like, I'm doing the Muslim ban, right? I realized that I had done what I think a lot of people do. I had assumed or even believed that I embodied the offense that the other person was experiencing when they themselves weren't. And you know, we see this oftentimes in society where somebody will be offended on behalf of others more than those people themselves are offended.

Right? Like remember when, um, remember when, uh, Tom Hanks's son put out that video speaking Patois from Jamaica. Right? And like full on and he was, and he's like fluent and he's like doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. What? Yeah. Come do for it. And he's like, he's nailing it. He's the guy crushing it. Not like what I just did now. That guy's nailing it. He's absolutely nailing it. Dude. And then Americans were like, this is disrespectful. He must be canceled.

This is blah, blah. And then Jamaicans came out and they were like, they're like, yo, this boy is completely fluent. He knows us. Everything he's saying is correct. They're like, you guys are offensive. Why, why don't you want him to speak Patois? And they were like, no, but, but you guys don't understand what he's doing is wrong.

And, and Jamaicans are like, no, it's not wrong. There's also a lot of white Jamaicans. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's just how Jamaicans speak. Yes. Yeah.

For me, learning the lesson was actually that with Trump is that I was more offended than the people in the actual middle East who I was, and I didn't speak to everyone obviously, but I spoke to a lot of people about this and I was really shocked at how they saw it differently. There was a man in, I think we were in Qatar who said this to me, really, really like, you know, he said it and it shook me in the right way. We're arguing about Trump and presidents and all of this and all of this and all of this. And I was like, yeah, but, and then he said to me, he said, Trevor, he said, I think sometimes

maybe you are making mistakes. He said, you see, in America, people are worried about whether the politician was polite. They're worried about the Trump maybe saying it the wrong way and saying, he said, I don't worry about it. He said, I worry about what you're doing. He says, because look, my friend, George Bush was very polite, but look at my region. He said, look at what George Bush

and his politeness did to my region. He said, so if you're going to bring me somebody who is rude but they're not going to bomb the Middle East, I will take that. And I was like, damn. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I think, like Trump does make you question what is more important. And it's not that it is a binary. But is it how you present the thing or is it what you actually do? Yeah, I think it's.

So if you like to go back to the, like a homeless person asking for money, what is better to smile at them and tell them you don't have money or to take money and throw it at them? And I know people will be like, no, but neither one or no, but I'm saying like, if you had to choose, if there were only two options, which one would you choose?

Would you choose that somebody smiles and says, I don't have money and walks away and it's very kind or nice? Or would another person comes with a wad of cash, throws it at the homeless person and then walks away? Yeah, I think he's that guy. I think we need to ask the homeless person. What? You need to ask the homeless person?

That is funny. There's a verse in the Bible. Yeah. Parable, Jesus. So Jesus talks about a son. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Okay, just checking.

Just checking. So Jesus talks about, I forget the exact parable, but what He says in this parable is, a father asks a son to do something, right? And then the son's like, no, I'm not going to do something, right? And then the son's like, no, I'm not going to do it. I ha ha ha. It's rude to his father. Ask another son and the son says, yes, I'll do it.

This polite son doesn't do the thing. The son who was not polite said he's not going to do the thing. That's the thing that the father asked him to. So it feels like, and then it seems like then Jesus kind of praises the son who said, I wouldn't do it, but he did it. But does a thing. So, again, it feels like that parable. Oh, so then Jesus ran, Jesus disagrees with you, just so you know.

You know that the J in Donald J. Trump is... Yeah. Oh, the Jesus... Jesus disagrees with you. in Donald J Trump is? Yeah. Oh, the Jesus. Jesus disagrees with you. But Donald Jesus Trump. Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now after this. By the way, you've started going to church now, right? Yes, yes, yes.

Why? I would love to know why. So, why? First of all, because I assumed that you weren't religious, because of all the years that I've known you. And then now you like go to church. Yes. So, well, as you know, I lost my mother last year. So, which was, like I was saying now, in two days' time, it's going to be exactly a year. How old was your mom when she passed?

She just turned 70. I mean, it's not young, but that's young. Especially considering how she was, she was super active. So then I'll never, I mean, I remember driving, you know, to the funeral with my sisters. So they're in the car at the back and I'm driving and I'm leading the funeral procession to the church. And I said to them, guys, you know that thing, I don't know how to call it, but that thing that you get lump in your throat, where you feel like, ah, I'm just, and I'm trying to not cry as I'm talking to my sister. And I says, guys, I'm not going to talk.

I'm not going to speak at the funeral. I know I'm supposed to, but I'm not going to do it. I can feel I won't be able to do it. Once I'm in front of the church, it's going to be impossible. And they're like, no, you can't do that. You know, she would have wanted you to like you. And I was like, guys, because you and your mom are close. Yeah. And then I'm like, I can't, I can't, you know, she would have wanted you to like, and I was like, guys, because you and your mom were close. Yeah. And then I'm like, I can't, I can't, you know.

So then we get to the church and they like to plonk you right in front of the freaking coffin. Yeah. So the family, so now it's like, oh my God, this thing is right here now. It's more real. And that, that feeling was even more profound. It's like, there is no way I know I won't be able to speak. But then there's women that went, my mom went to church with. They're out there, they're celebrating,

singing, they're just singing, like, you know, and they keep coming, they keep looking at me. There's this elder, this old woman, she's 93 or 94, old and tiny. She's really, I know not many people are smaller than me, but she was like really, and she keeps going like this and she's singing. And they're so joyous. And then I got up and I joined them and I started singing and every single time and I felt this, I think I almost felt her presence, my mother's presence, and I felt like God's presence. And I was like, wow. At that moment, I was feeling so broken and weak and unable.

I was like, wow, I know I can speak now. I know I can speak. And I got up and what, in fact, I didn't even make the speech that I prepared in my mind. I literally got up and sang and which I would never do in public and I urge anybody not to hear, try to hear me singing in public and I started singing. What did you sing? I sang, there's a song by a very traditional cluster song that was made famous by also a, a, a cluster singer, um, um, and it's a Yankees and it's, it's

which is like, this is my mother who has raised, who has, yeah, who has raised me. And, and then there's a big photo and I was holding this photo of her and singing this song. And then I just started speaking quite joyously about her. Very brief, very short. And then I was like, next week when I go back to Jorbek, I'm going to church. And that was it. And that's when I started. That's why I started going to church. I'm assuming you grew up going to church. Yeah, absolutely. We all did. So when had you stopped going to church? I stopped probably going to church in 2006.

This is when you got a million subscribers on YouTube. It is, right? Viewers. Yeah, million views on YouTube and then you were like who needs God? I am God. In fact that's how I first got into touch with Siso actually. YouTube? Wow. Yeah. I think we mailed each other. Wow, you sent in to his DMs. No way. Oh my god. Yeah. Didn't Doja Cat also email you? Oh my goodness. Like a child, child Doja Cat. Yeah, that's like before she was Doja Cat. Doja Kitten, didn't she email you? It's a wild thing. She did mail me. But I mean, she was like 13. She sent me an email because obviously because she was watching my videos on YouTube as a 13 year old

and she knew us from South Africa. So she sent me an email. She said, hi, my name is Amala Zandi Lejlamini and my father is Dumisani. He's this famous actor in South Africa. He was in Sarafina. I'm trying to get hold of him. I've never met him. Wow. I want to get hold of him and would you find a way to get me in touch with him?

And I felt so, my heart, like, I was like, she's 13. she's like a child yeah she's gone to this extent and I was like I'm sure I can find him easily right because my cousin is an actor he probably knows him with Shomla yeah so I sent I contacted Shomla do you know this guy yes where is he how can I get in touch with him and then like he was in Namibia doing whatever. And so this way is try to get in touch with him. Told him the, gave him the information about his daughter and, uh, he just never responded and then I, uh, I sent an email back and I told her like, um, I'll do what I can, but I, I don't know what to do.

I'll do what I can, but I don't know what to do. And then one of his daughters who lives in Soweto, but different mother, also sent me an email having seen the fact that like, cause I'd wrote a post, I think I wrote a post. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had put a, you posted a blog about this. Yes. And then I posted a blog and where I asked about it and I was like, well, if anybody knows where he is, and then one of his daughters also sent me like an email and said, okay, this is my email address.

Please send my email address to Amala and then they would get in touch. And that was the last thing I did. That was my last interaction with them. And I felt very sad because they never got in touch. Obviously up to this day as far as I know. And there was long before I saw Doja Cat. She was just like a 13 year old girl watching YouTube videos. You know, I wonder what it is about you that makes

people feel like you can or would be willing to help them because it's even in hearing the story I think to myself like I know I've done that with you in some ways I think all of us people in general they'll turn to you as Kaya and be like Kaya can you help me do this can you, Kaya, can you help me do this? Can you help me find this? Can you help me figure this out? Can you help me? I, and I, I'm, you think it's a smile? Yeah, but I think it's more, there's something, I don't know. I don't know what it is about you because you, you also have a yearning to help people.

Do you know what I mean? I remember when I was going to appear on the daily show, you were one of the people I called was like, yo man, I was going to appear on The Daily Show, you were one of the people I called. I was like, yo man, I'm going to go on the show. You're literally the person who for me knows the most about American politics. I need your help. And you were never like, no. In fact, when we met, this is how I met Kaya. When we met, so Johannesburg slash South Africa has a very small middle class. So if you, you know, if your family was lucky enough to move in some way, you, you sort of knew each other as people. And I remember I would go out to parties or, you know, brides or what

Americans call barbecues or whatever it was was, nothing fancy, by the way, because I wasn't in entertainment in any way. And everywhere I would go, I would see this guy, this short, charismatic human being with a dazzling smile, always laughing, always talking to people, And I'd always see him and you'd greet me and I'd greet you, but I didn't know you. But you just greet and you just like, you have welcoming eyes, you know? And the other thing I noticed was oftentimes you were either

surrounded by businessmen in suits or stunning models. And I mean just like gorgeous, like, and I mean surrounded. And I think it was more noticeable because models are generally like six feet tall. And then you are like, you know what I mean? So it would be like, it was quite a sight to behold. And I remember one day, this is when I plucked up the courage in Cape Town and I came up to you and I said, Hey man, I don't know who you are. I don't know your name, but I said, but you are surrounded by the most beautiful women I've ever seen.

And I said, I just want to be your friend. I said, please can I just be your friend? I remember. Yeah. I remember. And you, yeah yeah upstairs and you laughed and you were like yeah okay and you were just but I mean like most people would be like what this guy was like yeah okay well I guess and he was like we can be friends and we literally this is how we became and we exchanged numbers and you were just like all right we can be friends and it's so funny and

those are me I was with American models. And I don't know, because I never got to meet. I know you did. All I got was our friendship, by the way. I never met a model because of you. I know. But I'm happy. But it's just funny to be that, like, that's how I met you.

That was funny. Because actually, what happened there was that because I remember this friend of mine was a girl. He lived in New York, but was in joba. Yeah, and he said I have these friends of mine who are in Cape Town The models they don't know where to go And I see you're in Cape Town. Can I show them as a shop? That's the time. You see this is what I mean cars always needed by people And if you need models

To need someone if you have models who need someone, models who don't know where to go, you call Kaya and he'll respond. I think that's the old Kaya. He used to bring models. Now he just brings stories about Uber drivers. I'm old. Yeah, but I think it's like a beautiful quality. You know, in the same way I think of the stories of your grandfather and you know, I haven't actually, I've never heard many stories with your dad actually.

Oh yeah. Well, crazy thing about my dad is when we're celebrating my sixth birthday yeah in the village the news came that he died literally were having a party that are great party like sixth birthdays were like a big thing yeah and guava juice you know over the garbage is you knew your maid when a garbage you saw there the garbage juice and then because the village there were no telephones. This is the 80s. Got a phone call, they sent a telegram. And from the shop, someone walked from the shop to my grandparents' house to deliver the telegram to say that, well, they just received the news that my father had passed away. And I think it passed

away for a few days because no one for some reason they couldn't identify him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was, but the one story, I mean, there are two stories that I remember that have been told about my father, but my favorite story about my father was how petty he was. He was, it was like, petty, I think for a reason. So his father, my grandfather, not Alfred Kaiser boys. Yeah. Uh, Paulus Lang. Paulus.

Paulus Lang. Paulus Lang. So he had, um, he had a post in, in Wyss. I don't know how this happened. So it's a story I've never, I'd never met him. So he had a post at Wits where he was somehow in the chemistry department and he was a lecturer or something, I don't know how, lecturer. And then the professor he was working with, the white guy, basically said, yo, I just

found out that you're about to be arrested, it better leave, go to Lesotho. So he runs off to Lesotho. So this is your grandfather on your dad's side? My dad's side. Okay, got it. So he's a lecturer at a South African university. Yes.

He was suspected because he taught chemistry. They said that he was teaching freedom fighters how to make bombs and that's what they were saying. And was he? Maybe, I don't know. Okay, so you'd have known long before you were telling me. I have no idea. So that's what they accused him of because teaching chemistry. And his colleague tells him I just found out that you're about to be arrested. Yes. I'm assuming by the apartheid government. Okay, yeah. And so now he flees the country. So he flees the country, goes to Lesotho. Okay. Got it.

And he ends up in Lesotho and he gets a teaching post. He's teaching at the university. They're called University of Roma. So he's there like- So he's in exile now. Yeah, he's in exile. So he's there for a few years. And I mean, my grandmother used to tell stories about the people who used to go to the house, like Mandela, Sobuko, and all of those people that, you know, that'd be there with him. But one day, they received a letter, actually a copy of the letter, from the Minister of

Home Affairs of Lesotho, basically saying that they have received word that his continued presence in Lesotho presents an imminent danger to the safety and security of Lesotho and therefore they give him 24 hours to leave the country. Who's this letter coming from? From the Home Affairs of Lesotho. But they were pressurized by the South African government. Wow. So the apartheid government says to the government of Lesotho, you guys are harboring a terrorist, which is your grandfather. And if you don't harbour him, then Lesotho is now in South Africa.

And so he left before like the deadline and obviously back roots so that he could lose Lesotho as well. Leaving my father and you know his kids there. And he leaves, back roots, but then somehow the cops find him. He's in South Africa now. Because he's left Lesotho. They find him, arrest him, torture him. So he's tortured and to such an extent that he becomes, well, doesn't get almost half

paralysed. Yeah, yeah, okay. And they're like, well, they can't take him to court because there's nothing he can do now. They've tortured him so much. And eventually, you know, about a year or two later, he dies. And so my father, this is what I'm saying, this is my favorite story about my father. So my father then becomes a traffic cop, like in the 80s, he becomes a cop, a traffic cop, and he gets called to the head offices of Mdata, you know, it's Transcana, another big country.

This is the region where he lives. So now he is someone that has no idea what's been called there. He goes to the top bosses and they ask him like, they say, they bring a file, they're like, they open the file, they say, explain yourself. Why is it that every single traffic fine is to a white person? You don't find any black people. All these fines are just white people. And this says, well, most people who drive cars are white. And they say, so you're saying that black people don't, they don't commit traffic offences. And he would fine them for the tiniest infringement.

And basically he was given a warning that if he continues to be filed, then he quit. Wow. So it was his own little rebellion, I think, against the, I think his protest against what happened to his father. Kudos to him. I like that. That's literally the only story that I know of him. Damn I like that. Because I was too young to know anything about him. So that was I thought that was a freaking. He would have worked well as a cop in America, but they would have been like, listen, same tactic, but flip the race. You're doing very well. You're doing very well.

You've got the skills. You've got the skills. You've got the skills we're looking for. But now what we just need you to do is flip it. Flip it the other way and you'll meet your quotas. I'd love to know, okay, like... I was thinking like, one of the things I really admire about you is how you have such a giving nature as a person and giving in a multidisciplinary way. Like you're a giving person with your time, you're a giving person with your knowledge,

you're a giving person with your attention, you're a giving person with your like, anything, man, anything, you just, you're a giving person. And I was thinking about this the other day, I was like, I don't know many people who've experienced more loss than you have, especially in like short amounts of time, you know? And sometimes I'll see your posts online, you know, when it's like your mom's, the anniversary of your mom's passing. And I know one of the biggest ones was your youngest brother, you know? What do you think it is about you

that keeps you being generous and hopeful and optimistic despite feeling so many losses or despite experiencing so many moments that could turn you the other way. Because I honestly, I don't just admire it. I've been inspired and shocked by it because I haven't seen you hardened. I haven't seen you hopeless. I haven't seen you hopeless. And maybe you hide it. I hope you don't as a friend. But I would love to know what keeps you going in the face of something that could dim the

light in many people's eyes? Sure, that's such a, wow, I've never thought about that. It's such a difficult question to answer. You know, I think this is going to sound maybe a little crazy, but I remember the year I lost my brother, we were in LA with your mother in December. We were you and I. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So that was COVID.

Yeah, that was COVID. Yeah. And I remember like just having these conversations with your mother, like her faith and like her resilience, her, I mean, there's this profound, I think, belief that she has. Yeah, my mom is unwavering. It's crazy because I mean, we, and I think we're connected in such a nice way actually with our mother in that very short space of time and she'd go out and pray and all of that.

And I think part of what helped me, like maybe that moment and have faith also just brought me back, okay, great, there are certain things that I remember when I read the Bible, which was, because the Bible like makes like certain assurances, which are things, bad things are going to happen. Yeah. So therefore they're guaranteed to happen and they will happen. And so, and one of them is like, um, it's like, like when you walk through the rivers, you will not be swept away. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burnt. So the bad things will happen as they should. as they should and I think we're not put on this earth for you know for pleasantness and I think that in most people like I mean I mean I always

judge myself and always feel like I have little contribution when I think about the gifts that I have I think as person. I've always found that crazy about you. I always tell you this. That? I always feel like you minimize how much you contribute to everything. Okay, but always. And I've always told you this. I know you have.

That's true. Like you, and you always remind me, which is crazy. And you always say that like, I am more than what I think I am. You always. And that's suppose I need to get to that place and you always say that I just need to get to that place so I just take it and just take that. And maybe I'm not at that place yet and it's going to come.

And I think for me, it's those guarantees that I know, okay, when you do this, you will be okay. It will happen. And so I try to arm myself with the knowledge that tough things are going to happen. And therefore, if they happen, I should be prepared. But I mean, the one thing that I was never prepared for for my brother that hit me harder than anything else than anything can why why was that because I it's just like a thing that I thought would never happen I just did not think that someone close to me would take their own life it was not if he lived with me damn so my brother lives with me. What did I miss? How could I not see this? Yeah

I claim to love this person was a so self-absorbed so these questions I was asking about myself and I mean he was going through an addiction gambling addiction I didn't even see it and they live with me and I didn't know which is what eventually led you know to him taking his life. And so I took some active decisions once I found out that he was gambling and he'd gotten himself into like a hole that he really couldn't get himself out of and got him to therapy and he worked with me, I defied Um, I forced him to call my mother.

I tried to kick him out of my place as a threat. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine you have to sit across it rather than tell him, listen, I'm firing you. And then I have to follow him and say, listen, I love you. I'm not being mean, malicious, but this is for you to get better. That in four months, you're going to come back, you know? You're going to come back and work just to get better.

I gave him the phone. I said, I'm not going to call my mother and tell her that I've had to fire you. Yeah, you take the phone and you call and you tell her. And he had to call. So there were like a series of decisions that I made and what was very crazy, I think for a very long time after that, after he took his life and the decisions that I'd made, what's that question? Did I push him too hard too quickly? Yeah, I can only imagine. And I became very doubtful of almost any decision I was making. So it was very hard for me to make decisions

for a very long time. Because I felt that the decisions that I may have made may have led my brother to make the decision. Even though I know that like logically. Yeah, logically you know, but then there's still the emotional question. Yeah, so the emotional question was just like, but what if I drove him too hard and so I blame myself for all of that, even though I know that I shouldn't and there's no blame. So I struggled and obviously having these conversations with your mother and then like the faith aspect of it for me was very important. And then, I mean, like one of my favorite scriptures is Job in the Bible, where Job

in the beginning, he loses everything. And then at the end of it, after he's lost everything, the thing that Job says is like, naked I came, naked I shall depart, may the name of the Lord be praised. And then I was like, hmm, okay. That means we need to find joy in whatever way we can. And a lot of the time during the losses is trying to find that it's interesting because I don't think that maybe I've found joy myself. I feel like people like friends have made sure that I am okay in order for me to have that, to have a springboard.

Do you know what I mean? No, I hear exactly what you're saying. To find myself because when I think of all my friends, you, Sizwe, Golisa, Anelie, like a whole bunch of people were just so there in ways that I just couldn't imagine. And I think that's what really... It's friends, honestly, sincerely. And I don't know if it's a me. I don't think it's not really, it's friends, honestly, sincerely. If, and I don't know if it's a me, I don't think it's a me thing. I definitely think that it's the people who, who probably see the value in me as a person. And because I see that value, I see that there is, there's something more to life, I guess.

I mean, I don't have an answer to, you know, to... It's a very difficult question because I've never thought about it. No, I understand. I've literally never thought about it. And I mean, you know, when I think... Because also at the same time, you know, he lives with me, it's my brother. And then I feel... I think the worst guilt I also felt was like, Oh my God, is my mother going to blame me?

Yeah, dude, I can only imagine. You know what I'm saying? And what, and what did she say? Oh, she said to me, cause she was with me all this through every step of the way. Everything I had to do. She said, you know, like she, you did more than you should have. And which is essentially what my brother actually said in his own suicide note that he left, which was, um, you know, um, you, you, you did more than a brother should have done. And that's what my mother said to me. Um, but I, they didn't, I suppose that didn't make you feel good, you know, either,

but, but you don't feel, yeah. And she was like, you, you, you did more than you should have. And also like at the funeral, she spoke, or she didn't speak, someone read the note that she wrote, which was the most gracious thing I've ever read in my entire life. Which she said, I mean, at the end of it, it was so non-judgmental. She said, you were tired of the things of this world and rest my son, you know, and yeah, which was I was like, I mean, at the end of it, I was like, wow, what a thing to say. But I'll never forget the evening of the funeral. Everybody's gone, just myself, my mother and my two sisters. It's just us, you know, we're watching TV that we're not really watching.

We're just sitting there quietly and because everyone is gone. And she said, well, she said, in Tosa, which means I am going to die next year. And I was so angry and I was like, don't say that. What are you saying? You have other children, you know, and I said this and she was saying it to herself, you know, she was saying it to herself and not even saying it to us. And then she said, well, my mother, she said, because her mother died, her mother lost her son, you know, and she said, my mother lost a son in 1987, in 87, in 88 she passed

away. So I'm, that's what's going to happen to her. And so, and what I would do after that, I just give it, I just call it, cause I was in kid, just COVID. So I'd call it like all the time just to make sure that like you know she's not you know she's not she's not leaving she's not leaving and i just and i think i was calling it for my own selfishness actually just to make sure she she knows that i'm okay that she's okay yeah none of that and then we're fine and i was like oh she's getting. And then she just got sick, you know? And I think, uh, I mean, it took like three years for it to get really sick and cancer. She was very healthy.

She literally just got almost sick overnight. And this cancer, which I think she was, she hid, you know, from us because she really did want to die. And I think it was heartbreak that really just, it was definitely, it does what the cancer does. Cause I almost feel like in many ways she called it upon herself and, and I think she knew she had the cancer. She just didn't tell anybody. Because my mother's a very proud woman, you know, like a lot of, you know, closer women, very proud, strong woman. She's like, I'm not gonna... And so, yeah, it was...

It's very difficult. It's... I don't know. I don't have the answers. I just don't have the answers. But that was a very hard thing to hear her say when she said, I don't have the answers. I just don't have the answers. But that was a very hard thing to hear her say when she said, I'm going to die next year. And then there's nothing you can do about it. You know? So yeah. But honestly, I think for me, I promise you, if I didn't have the friendships that I have, I don't know what the faith and the friendships that I have, I don't know what would be. I genuinely don't know.

Because friendships don't give you a chance to, to wallow, I think in, yes, feel the things they need to feel. Yeah. But don't dwell in it, you know, like I have this quote that I, that I wrote myself to quote myself and what and what I always say and I think I said it because oh it's a beautiful thing to say or sounds so nice which was even in my darkest hour I glow in the dark and it's a thing that I was like oh it's a very it's a very beautiful thing to say and I wrote this thing years ago long before I experienced the kind of pain that I would feel. And I think that the glowing in the dark is caused by people around you

who love you. So yeah. No, that's beautiful, Cain. Thank you for sharing that, yeah. No, that's beautiful, Ken. Thank you for sharing that, man. It's funny, you and your brother are the reason, like when we started the podcast, podcasting is weird because it's one of the few broadcast mediums or whatever where you're directly tied to the advertising. So when you're on The Daily Show, when you're on another TV show, they just play ads in between and podcasting the ads are sort of tied to the show in some ways. And so I remember when we launched the podcast, they explaining the system to me and how it works. They're like, well, people don't pay for the podcast until you do advertise.

I was like, okay, whatever. And you get the ads that come in. And one of the ads that we used to get on the podcast was sports betting. You know, get like all sports betting, sports betting, sports betting. And there was one day when I was reading like the terms and conditions of the sports betting. And I don't know why you and your brother came into my head. And I said to the team after that, I was like, we can't do these anymore. And they were like, why? And I was like, because it's not real. Do you know what I mean?

You know, they go like gamble responsibly. That's not a real thing. You know, it's not, someone might say, oh yeah, but I mean, anything can go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we have to admit there are certain things in life that have a far worse ramification than others. Like you and I, funny enough, in Cape Town, we're talking to a friend from London. We didn't know, I didn't know that she had a gambling addiction. I know. It was a gambling addiction. I know.

It was a crazy story. So the UK has this thing where you can put somebody or put yourself really on a list where you are banned from all gambling, all gambling. And when you're on that list, they can't take your money, they can't allow you to gamble, they can't. And once you're on the list, I think there's like different phases. You can be on for a year, you can be on for three years, you can be on for 10 years or something, maybe even forever.

But you, and then you have to call to take yourself off the list and there's a series of things you have to answer. But the point is she was telling us the story about gambling and I was thinking of you again and your brother and I was just like, the thing about gambling in particular is, on the face of it, gambling is fun and innocuous, right?

It's a fun thing. Hey, I bet you this can't happen. I bet you that can't happen. Like you were saying with insurance. I bet you your house won't catch fire. But when people work to make you gamble more than you can and should I Don't know man it's and I feel like this about a like a few products that we've allowed in society and in the world is We've made it seem like it's all about the individuals responsibility, but we know that there are certain individuals Who can't override that because it's, it's been designed to hack that. Yeah. You know, they'll make certain foods addictive, but then we blame people for being addicted

to them. But it's like, yeah, but you also made it addictive. You know, someone will go like, oh yeah, but why did they smoke? It's like, yeah, but you know that smoking is addictive. And gambling is one of those as well. Like the way they make the way they, they loop people in with parlays and bets and double or nothing and this and get that, and you can get a free, and they always rope you in with free, Hey, hey, come in, start with a free one, your free bet, start with a free bet.

And, and I remember thinking, I was just like, damn man. It's like, am I? Because I genuinely, I kept on thinking of like somewhere out there, there might be some kids, some person who's listening to your podcast and they go like oh wow free bets I might want to join in and then you just you don't know you know because you've seen the insidious side of it. It's so funny I it's so funny I've asked myself this question as I well what if a betting company came to me and said, hey, influence this. I was like, well, I know I wouldn't do it, right?

But at the same time, it's so funny, there's another friend of mine, he called me up the one time and he was like, well, this betting company has called him and they want him to influence something and he's like, he's not going to do it. And I was like, I think you should, if you know, I don't think that you should not do it because you know, but then again, it's because he maybe met my brother and all of that. So it felt like too close to home. And, and it's such a, I mean, for example, like, and this is what I think about. So now, because people die in car accidents. And I'm not trivializing the thing.

No, no, no. Yeah. I'm not trivializing it. People die in car accidents, and then there's a car company that's like, okay, great. Or some people take their lives in cars. Yeah. Right. So does that mean that one should not then advertise a car.

So I hear what you're saying, but I, and I, it's funny you say that I've asked myself this question. And I think this is oftentimes how certain products, brands or services weasel out of a certain type of responsibility. They bring that up as an argument and they've done well to condition us to think that way. The difference is there's no car manufacturer who is secretly trying to make you die in a car accident. In fact, they're trying to do the opposite.

There is no car manufacturer who's going, okay, on the outside, we're going to advertise how safe a Volvo is, but guys, secretly, we're going to make sure the brakes don't work. We're going to make the car go faster than it says on the speedometer. We're going to make sure these people, let's even get them to drive drunk, let's advertise alcohol in the car while they're driving. They don't do that. So a car accident is an unfortunate byproduct of driving. It can happen.

And over time it is happening less and less and less and less and less because cars have gotten safer and safer and safer and safer and safer, right? The exact opposite is true for gambling. Go and look, I don't care where you live in the world. Guys, gambling is now the thing. Every sports league has gambling sponsors. It's on the side of the boards. It's on the advertising.

And again, by the way, I'm not even saying I'm anti gambling. Please don't get me wrong. You know me, and again, by the way, I'm not even saying I'm anti gambling. Please don't get me wrong. Like you know me, I hate living in binaries, right? I'm not anti gambling, but what I find myself allergic and vehemently opposed to most of the time is when we just aren't honest about the restrictions or the limitations or the regulations we're putting

on certain things. But then for something like gambling, I go, if we were to find your documents, your real documents that oftentimes get leaked when you're in court, would we find that you are actually trying to get people to gamble responsibly? Is that what we would find?

Definitely not. Do you know what I mean? The same way with social media companies, would we find that you are actively trying to get people to not, you know, become depressed, lose their self-esteem, have a bad self-image? Are you actively, because you say it, hey guys, oh, social media platforms,

hey guys, don't forget to take a break from your screen and go outside, but are you actively trying to do that? Because there's the thing you tell us in public and there's the thing you tell us in private, right? And so I think that's my issue is governments have shown that they are far behind where they need to be in terms of regulating gambling. I'm not gonna be a crazy person and be like, no gambling.

No, I won't say that, but I'm like, there are some industries that have found a way to get around the regulations that try to keep as many people safe as possible. And the way they've done it is by flipping it and making it a personal responsibility thing. Yeah, your responsibility. Yeah.

Gamble responsibly. Yeah. But no one says to them, no, no, no, advertise responsibly. No one says to them, program your apps responsibly. No one says to them, vet your customers responsibly. It's always on you. Gamble responsibly. No one says to them vet your customers responsibly. It's always on you. Gamble responsibly. And when they do that, what they do is they make you as an individual feel like you are responsible for the thing that has happened to you. But in certain industries,

we don't. Yeah. There's no airline that can get away with saying like, hey man, choose the one that flies. Because if they crash, we come for them. We investigate the shit out of them. We're like, nah, man, you have three crashes. Nah, we're going to ground your airline actually. Then they can't be like, no, these passengers, they must pick Pera, man. Come on, guys. Why did you inspect the plane before you came? Did you pick responsibly?

I think there's a real big problem and gambling is one of them. And the crypto space is another one whereby your best customer is the one that goes bankrupt on your product. Yes. There's no product that relies on you going bankrupt for your benefit. With cars, it's not beneficial to a car company for the person to spend all them, you know what I mean? That's not what their bottom line is based on. A lot of these crypto things and I'll say things because I don't really know them,

but an NFT things, some, some Forex stuff and online gambling, their bottom line is reliant on people going bankrupt. Yes. That's what my problem is. Never thought about that. That's actually, that's what I mean. My problem is people have been tricked into thinking that all products are the same and all ramifications are equal.

They're not. But they're not. Because some, to your point, Ryan, have been designed differently. They've been designed to do a different thing to you. So I'll give you a simple example. Imagine if they said in the same way, some countries have gone, you have to provide us with documents before you get a phone number, like look at what South Africa did, you know, with like just going like, Hey, we just, yeah, we just

want to know, we can't just have a phone number, we want to see your passport or your ID or we want to know who has which phone number, right? Accounts as well. Yeah. Bank accounts for certain things. You could do the same with gambling. You can say, okay, fine, gambling services, the responsibility is on you. If you want people to be on your platform, they have to present you with their bank statements and you are not allowed to allow them to gamble with more than a certain

percentage of their income. Like you do with credit. So the National Credit Act. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. People can only get a certain amount of credit based on what they earn. They do that with credit in America as well. You have a credit act where they say, like they go, hey, what's your credit score? Sorry, you can't buy this thing. So now my question to you is, if we allow that for banks, if we're saying that like a bank cannot give you credit

when you don't have a good credit score, why is it such a crazy idea to ask that of a gambling company? That's- Because fundamentally it's the same thing. We're saying you cannot afford to pay back this loan. So we will not give you the loan in the first place. And I know there's many issues with credit scores and there's other, we can talk about that another time,

but the underlying concept is still there and it's sound. Why can't we do the same thing with gambling companies? And my question is, why doesn't the gambling company want that? Because a gambling company would be like, no, but I'm like, no, no, no. You guys say you want people to gamble responsibly. Let's help you. So then let's help you.

We're going to make sure that all your customers can afford to pay every single bet. All your customers are not gambling beyond their means and you're still making money and everyone's having a good time why would they say no to that because fundamentally their product is not about you making money from them or them giving you something no their product is about extracting as much wealth from you as is humanly possible and the ultimate conclusion for many people as you've unfortunately learned and you know like the I mean like most you know company brands and companies and like alcohol for example. Yeah. About 20% of the customers are responsible 80% of the consumption. You know

apparently this is true for everything. Yeah everything. Yeah so I've learned this for ice cream and I took it personally because I am the 20%. Definitely. I buy 80% of the ice cream. In fact, everyone else in the world, you're welcome. Because of me, you guys have ice cream. Well, I will literally say this. There are five of us here making Trevor 20% of us. Trevor has bought 80% of the ice cream we've bought in our lives. That's what I'm saying. I'm not responsible for ice cream companies staying open for all of you. So you're welcome. But now, okay, wait, so that's an interesting question actually, Segway to ask you is like, your books. How many books have you written now? What are you on?

Now I'm on number five. Number five. So what the first one was? In my, in my arrogant opinion. That's my favorite title of all time. Because of who you are. Yeah. I think it's my favorite title because you're so, so modest and so considered. And so the, so in my arrogant opinion is amazing. Okay.

Um, your second book. My second book was to quote myself. To quote myself. Yes. your second book? My second book was To Quote Myself. To Quote Myself, yes. And the third book was... what was my third? Oh, these things really do happen to me. Yes, it was a lot of... some of these were like these Uber driver stories, but like way more crazy ones. Yeah. And then, and then is the answers for me, which was very different. And then- What made that one different?

Cause a lot of your books, and I would encourage people to get them. Cause like, and I don't say this just because you're my friend. I think it's one of the things I've been lucky enough to learn and love about you is, you're one of my favorite storytellers ever. And your writing is like, I can see that you've been reading newspapers since you were 13.

No, because the way you tell a story, the narrative, the way you bring things together, you tie stuff together, all your books are like time traveling between now and then, now and then, now and then. You'll talk about what's happening now. Some of your books, you're talking about social media, but then you'll be talking about like growing up in the village. And, but then you'll find a way to tie social media into the village. And then in another book, you'll be talking about like just life and the way we see each other, but then you'll tie it into something that was or that is. And so what made that one

different? So this one I actually wrote during COVID. I live with my brother now he's not there anymore. I can't bump into him. I could walk around naked. So now he had, so I just started asking people questions online. One of the, I mean, when I think of one of the questions was, what have you never said to your parents that you wish you had have said to your parents? And the things that people said were so heavy. And then eventually people say to me, can you please put the answers like in a book? And I put those answers.

That sounds very different. I always ask, is it a book? I don't know. So it's that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I'm with you. And then, and then now this one, which is the one that I'm working on now, which is done actually. It's gone to the printers, I think on the 27th. I always say like a book is never done. It's just gone to the printers.

Because I don't know if you've had that, I've had that experience where I just have to give the book in, but forever more I go, oh, I could have added this. I could have, I should have. Yeah. But that's every, everyone I know of who's never written a book says the same thing. Yeah. Okay. So this one, this, this was your latest book, which is coming out. Yeah. My latest book, which is coming out now is called, um, life is like that sometimes. Yeah. So it's like, even the pictures are, life is like that sometimes. Yeah, so it's like, even the pictures are like, life is like that sometimes. And again, I talk about the village and then towards the end, obviously, I talk about, you know, my brother, the journey that he had to go through with him and losing my mother as well.

So, and it's like this journey of life, you know, And I always say that when I look at my books, I think I kind of try to just post-rationalize them in the sense that I say it is almost looking at not recording history, but how we live life while history is happening. So if, for example, if I talk about, so in the village, we're to take the bus, we wake up at four, you know, at four with my grand, who then take us to the school and take a bus and da-da-da. If the river was too high, then we have to wait until,

you know, all of those kinds of things. That is a consequence of apartheid, for example. So this is how we lived during apartheid. And then, so what happens when Nassim Mandela comes out of prison? Oh, they open schools to black kids too. Then I go to a school with white people and people in the township see me wearing a school uniform, this little primary is 12 year old, you know, wearing this clothes that they only see while kids wearing to school. And then

they will stop you on the street and be like, can you speak English? They're like, he have yes, like really? And then again, then they say, okay, speak English then. You know, the funniest thing, they used to do that to me, but then I would speak, but then they wouldn't know whether or not it was English. It was always like the funniest loop. They would be like, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. And I'd be like, yeah, I speak.

And they'd be like, okay, okay, okay, okay. And then I'd be like, hello, my name is Trevor. Yeah! Exactly! And I'm like, but you don't know if I can speak English because you can't speak English. And that's what I'm saying the books are. They're saying, they're literally was, I mean, like one example like I have is like, I'll never forget, I'd broken my arm and go to the hospital and Imtansali, Sincilia, Makiwane,

and the doctors are just white. I don't know why they were all white. And the doctor would have a nurse who translate for them. So now I've broken my arm so the nurse is translating for the doctor. Yeah. And the doctor is like okay but then I respond in English. I could see the nurses with what the heck this child didn't just respond back in English you know. So the doctor says something she translates and I respond in English, you know. So the doctor says something, she translates and I respond in English. So she goes like this woman is so the nurse, which means, oh my God, this child speaks English. This child speaks English. And she calls like the nurses in the ward

and they all come, they surround me while the doctors kind of work on me. So the doctors like entertained, you know, for all these nurses and they were like so shocked to see a child speaking English. That's amazing. So again, it's like, what I'm saying is that history is happening, this is what's happening, this is how we're living, you know. So anyway, I don't know why I said that, but I think that's maybe what I do with my books.

Yeah, and I actually think we need that because sort of going to the beginning of our conversation, we're always at the mercy of the time that we're in and we can only process it through what we think will be a future lens, but more often than not is informed by a past lens. So I don't know. I think that's what I've always loved about your storytelling and your books is that it does give some sort of perspective. Like it's one thing for people to go Nelson Mandela was released from prison and apartheid ended, but it's like, yeah, but do you know what it was like for a young boy from a village who now goes to a city because of that?

Like the human side of political ramifications is so much more interesting to me because then it stops becoming such a theoretical thing. You get what I'm saying? Like I remember a friend of mine who's Palestinian, Mo Amr, great comedian, really funny. But one day he said something to me that really stuck with me. He said, I just wish more people would see stories of Palestinian people so that they would no longer refer to them as just numbers. 10 Palestinians dead, 100 Palestinians dead.

You know what I mean? It's like, no, it's not just a number. What if I told you a story of a little girl who was going somewhere and then never got there? Like, do you get what I'm saying? Let me tell you a story of a family who had a little store that provided for the community and now that building is no longer there. And I realize that's the thing that limits our ability oftentimes to care for somebody else is that we don't know their story. Yeah, that is so true. And if anything, I think in having this conversation,

I've figured a little bit more of Kayatlanga out, is that you are such a village child that you've carried the village with you everywhere you've gone in the most beautiful way. You've carried it into your books. Because in the village, I don't know if you remember, we barely talk about, and I didn't live in the most beautiful way. You've carried it into your books because in the village, I don't know if you remember, we barely talk about, and I didn't live in the village, but I'd visit all the time, you know, not your village, but obviously, you know, my, my family's

ones, the conversations were never big. Never. They were always small, but they had the most meaning. And I feel like now in society, and I'm guilty of this as well Even when I'm saying this I go we have big conversations that if we're honest often meaningless You know the small conversations are the ones where you go, where's your uncle? Hmm. How's he doing? Hey, man. Did you see that? The the the the river have you, there's rocks blocking the river? Hey man, have you guys also noticed your mud,

your by the houses? Hey man, that's small. And yet it's so meaningful. You know who's sick, who's healthy. You know who's growing, who's not. You know who's happy, who's sad. You know, and it like connects you to people. There was literally not a single break-in in the village.

I don't know about your, like it was an anomalous. Yeah. It was such a crazy concept that someone would steal something from another person because you knew who you were stealing it from. Yeah. And I think, I think that's what Kai Lange is in many ways. You are an embodiment of a village that over time we are losing in some, you know, for good and bad, but like we, we, and I think you've carried that into everything. You carried it into your books.

You've carried it into online. You're one of the few people I know online who treats social media like a village. No, I mean this honestly. Yeah. You, you like, you talk to people and with people and it's like very different. You're not even like doing it for likes, like you talk to people and with people and it's like very different. You're not even like doing it for likes, like you engage with people. And I think you make people feel like you are real and they are real and you're having conversations with them and you know that,

whereas most of us engage in social media on a very superfluous level. We post a thing, we want to see if people have liked it and then we leave it, we walk away. Did you like my picture? Yes? Okay, good, bye. Did you like my picture? Yes. Okay, good. Bye Did you like my tweet? Yes. Bye But you are going hey, here's the thing I said then someone says why then you like I'll tell you why then they go

That's crazy. Then you're like, what about your life? Then they're like how you asked me about me a Person with millions of followers doesn't ask people about them. They just tell people about them. But when they come from the village, you know, I think that's what it is, my friend. Thank you for this. This has been a... Thank you. ...my village friend. You know, there's a thing that you talked about the stories that... So in the foreword of my book or the author's note, there is one subject that kind of prickles me somewhat, is that in South Africa, the book buying public is white, mostly white, majority white, but they don't buy books by black writers. Oh, shit, that's really interesting. So they now it's almost like then how do

they get how do we get to know each other if we don't reading stories about it? Damn that's interesting. Because so you're giving your book away to a free Double the price for them. Oh, there comes his father. My father! I see you are your father's son. So if, I'd say for me, if there's one thing that I wish, like, especially for South Africans, is that because black people buy books, buy books by every author. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I almost feel that that is one thing that kind of really needs to start happening. I think in this country, if we really want to get to know each other, we need to know each other's stories.

We need exactly like you said, the Palestinians. We need to meet each other in the village. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. This was beautiful. Thank you, man. I appreciate you. Beautiful. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thank you, man. I appreciate you. Beautiful. Thank you. by Trevanoa, Sanaz Yamin and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl, Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? Thanks for watching!