What Now? with Trevor Noah - Trevor and Friends: Rainn Wilson and the Meaning of Life

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

Trevor is joined by Josh Johnson and actor, writer, and host of the Soulboom podcast Rainn Wilson to talk all things modern spirituality, the suspicious similarities between cults and video games, and what to do when somebody starts describing their star chart at a party. Trevor also explains why his favorite Bible story proves that Jesus loved to party. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I view it as that we have two natures. We have a higher nature and spiritual nature. We have a lower nature and animal nature. And lower animal nature, I say that, I don't mean to be judgy about that. Like it's just- Yeah, don't you judge those animals, Rain? Yeah. I love all the animals humping and eating each other and running around. But what do we want? We want power. We want some kind of security, we want sex, but we also have this part of ourselves that is kind and loving and giving and is sacrificial of our own needs for someone else. You're listening to What Now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. Now, this this week we're talking about religion, why Jesus knew how to get turned, why all

religious leaders need to fart more, and why Josh Johnson may be the God we're all searching for. Today we're doing something a little different. Josh is here, but unfortunately, Christiana is not. You may remember from our previous episode, her voice was on its way out, and now out it is indeed. We hope you get well, Christiana, as soon as possible. So anyway, I wanted to bring in someone else who really thinks a lot about religion in

this beautiful, almost aspirational way. So you're going to hear Josh and I get into it. And then Rainn Wilson. You know him from The Office, and you will probably soon also know him from his new podcast, Soul Boom. So he's gonna jump into the conversation and help us explore all of these big ideas

about faith and spirituality. Enjoy. What's up everybody in the background? Hey team, how are you all doing? I'm getting megabytes over here. Okay, cool. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. This NBA season, make every three-pointer alley-oop and buzzer-beater even more exciting with FanDuel. Download the app today to see why we're North America's number one sportsbook. 19-plus and physically located in Ontario.

Gambling.com, call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca Join me, Esther Perel, every Monday in my office on Where Should We Begin? I'm talking to couples and individuals about love and work, about turning conflict into connection. More than ever, our relationships define the quality of our lives. So let's explore the myriad of relational challenges together. See you Monday. Happy Rain Wilson Day! What's going on Josh Johnson? Not much man, Happy Rain Wilson Day! Oh man going on Josh Johnson? Not much man. Happy Rain Wilson Day.

Oh man, this is going to be fun. This is going to be fun. Where in the world are you right now? I'm in, I'm actually in Seattle. I'm in Seattle, Washington. Coincidentally, the birthplace of our guest. Look at that. That's how dedicated I am. I go to the place you're born when I'm interviewing you. No, I'm out here doing some shows. And you know, it's really weird being in Seattle right now, because Seattle is the birthplace and the headquarters of Boeing.

Yes, it is. But as we all know, Boeing is, you know, having a tough time. They're falling apart, literally. And so, this is one of the weirdest things I've experienced in a long time. Just randomly strange. A lot of the hotels or some of the hotels in Seattle will place some type of Boeing paraphernalia in your room, right? Because I guess everybody's proud of Boeing.

So there'll be a Boeing poster, there'll be a Boeing pen, there'll be a Boeing... The hotel I'm staying in has a tiny little Boeing airplane. Here, look at this. A tiny little Boeing airplane that they put by your bedside, right? And so, I've stayed here before. I never noticed the plane. And I went to bed the first night that I was here, and I turned to the side table to turn off the light,

and then I saw the plane, and I was like, huh, what's that? And I picked it up, and I was like, wait, that's a Boeing. I don't know, on any other occasion, I would have just gone like, oh, that's a cute little thing. I don't know what, I look, and I was like, wait, that's a Boeing. I don't know, on any other occasion, I would have just gone like, oh, that's a cute little thing. I don't know.

And I was like, is this a threat? I don't know why that thought came. I was just like, is this? I literally looked around the room like someone was threatening me. It felt like a mafia message. Like someone put a little Boeing next to my bedside and they were like, yeah, keep talking, Tre. Keep talking and you know what happens to you.

That's amazing. And so, yeah, so I'm in Seattle where I will be, I'll probably fly in and out on a Boeing, which is, I've been praying more than ever, by the way, on flights. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I've reestablished my connection with spirituality because of these planes that are dropping not out of the sky, but just like in the sky, which is somehow even more terrifying. Well, pieces are dropping. That's what prayer is for. But Joshua, you grew up religious, but you're not, I don't remember seeing you praying anyway.

No, I prayed to myself. I like, remember, okay. Like you're the God? Like you're like, oh dear, Josh, make this happen. No, no, no. Not at all. I just do it very quietly. Oh, okay. Like, remember the time we were on the plane and we had that heavy turbulence, which led you to tell the story about the time you had heavier turbulence. The whole time you were talking, I was praying. I just, oh, geez, I thought you were listening intently.

But I was trying to do both. Okay. Damn. I was going to say that I would pray to Josh. Hey, Rainn Wilson. There he is. I thought originally, I thought the same thing, Trevor, that Josh was praying to himself. I would totally, because I struggle with God. You know, God is tough, but I would totally pray to Josh. That's very kind. Although, I will tell you this though. I think you'd pray to Josh because you don't know him.

Like, I think I would struggle praying to Josh. And let me say this clearly, I mean, he would be a good listener. I will say that. He would be a great listener. Yeah. I think you would very quickly learn if you know Josh. You would pray to him and Josh would listen to you and Josh would feel for you. Lord Josh would feel for you. But it was great to, I kind of overheard you guys talking about prayer and I think it's pretty rare for folks in the modern world to kind of admit that they occasionally pray. I view it like in LA and New York and kind of liberal blue state America,

people are all into meditation and we're just like, oh, meditation is so awesome. CB Yeah. RL Yeah. RG But meditation is kind of like listening, right? And then prayer is really big more in like red state middle America, but not a lot of meditation. So it's like even in that, we're kind of bifurcated between part of America that just listens and part of America that just asks or beseeches. Oh, that's really interesting. That's an interesting way to think of it.

I've never broken down into those two elements when I think of prayer, interestingly enough. Yeah. Because I grew up in a very religious household. So did Josh Johnson, you know, coming from the South. We both came from the South. Mine was of Africa. I came from the south side of Seattle. Yeah, I'm where you're from right now. I'm in Seattle. I'm staring out at a beautiful,

beautiful, not sunny day. I wanted to know, was Seattle the religious place when you were growing up in it or has it always been this like we worship tech and innovation? It's funny you bring that up. I've never heard the term Seattle religious place before. Not religious at all, but such a different city in the seventies and early eighties. Seattle was logging and bowing and fishing. And we see what happened with bowing as soon as they stopped their airplane production in Seattle, things started to turn south. But I think that's what it is. Yeah. Oh damn. Okay. So Seattle for you when you were growing up, you said logging and- Yeah. My dad and my family had a sewer construction business because my immigrant-

You say sewer? Sewer. Yeah. Like sewer repair. That sounds like the most important job I've ever heard of. Yeah. First of all, my immigrant grandparents from Sweden and Norway came to Seattle. They're like, it's raining all the time.

All the drains are overflowing. They knew nothing about plumbing and sewer repair, but they're like, this is a growth business. Wow. This is why every country needs immigrants. People forget the thing that immigrants bring with them is sewer repair. When you're an immigrant to any country,

you notice what needs to be fixed and you just go, let me fix it. Maybe because you have an appreciation for the place, maybe you, you know. Did you ever feel like you were the child of immigrants or did you have like full on American swag when you were growing up? No, I was, I didn't have. I had zero swag.

I still have zero swag, but I was doing my nerd thing, I guess. And I guess the difference between my parents is I was a full adherent to nerd culture early on. So my parents were odd and they were weird and they were kind of bohemian, kind of hippies. My dad was working in the sewers and also painting abstract oil paintings and writing science fiction novels. But I was like playing the bassoon. I was on the chess team playing Dungeons and Dragons.

And Seattle was a really good kind of mossy, cloudy, shrubby, moist place to be a nerd. I can see you having a little swag. If I saw a guy walking down the street, like with a Dungeons and Dragons t-shirts playing an instrument that went for, there's a certain swag to that. I'd be like, yeah, man, that, that guy knows what's up. He's living his world just needs to be embraced. Like whatever it is that you have, if you're very, very confident and this is what it is,

everyone will respect it. Even if they don't even like your thing, you know? Well, it's interesting because later on, you know, nerd culture has gotten some swag, you know? The Comic-Cons and Hollywood is courting the nerds and the nerds are rock stars and nerds are bestselling authors. And back when I, we just got the shit kicked out of us.

It was very hard to have swag in the late seventies. Well, I grew up in the nineties and I was at the tail end of the ass whoopings. The same thing that people ask me about now is why I used to get my ass whooped for back in the day. I love the idea of being on the tail end of ass whoopings. The same thing that people ask me about now is why I used to get my ass whooped for back in the day. I love the idea of being on the tail end of ass whoopings, knowing you're on the tail. I know you don't know,

but I love the idea of getting ass whoopings and the person whipping your ass going like, man, this will be over soon. Yeah, man, we just, the whippings are being phased out. It looks like the nerds are taking over. You know what's funny? Nerds aren't just, haven't just like taken over, let's say like pop culture. They've also taken a special place in society. And that like, if you look at it, every single tech CEO, you know, comes from nerd world, like Elon Musk,

you look at old Elon Musk, you look at Elon Musk now, you look at Jeffrey Bezos back then, you look at Jeffrey Bezos now, you look at all of them. They have like a new type of swag, but more than that, they've almost become like demigods. People worship them, you know? People are like, what Elon Musk says, I follow. Everything Jeffrey Bezos believes in is mine. And it's almost become in some ways like the new religion of our times. What do you think we could learn from religion that helps us understand how and why people are worshipping

tech CEOs in 2024? Wow, that's a great question. You should do this professionally. do this professionally. I feel like humans are wired to worship. We are always going to worship something. We can worship money, we can worship career, we can even worship our families, and we can certainly worship these kind of titans people used to worship. They're Caesars and they're kings, right? And these were viewed as having the wisdom of the gods. And now we've shifted that over to CEOs because we worship money so much in contemporary society and money and status and the status that goes with it. Then of course, we're going to worship the gods of money. So I think what religion gives us, and it's important to differentiate in my mind between religion and spirituality because spirituality is an interest in the non-material things of life.

You don't have to ascribe to any particular set of beliefs or rituals or structures or kind of codification or mythology around that. But what religion gives you is a containment. It gives you a vessel. Like if you're a Christian, you can believe that there is a father, a son, and a Holy Spirit, and you can hold that reality and you can subvert yourself to the greater transcendent meaning of what that triune God kind of means. Yes, yeah. I often think to myself of religion and spirituality like video games, right? So I go, spirituality is video games. So it contains everything. And then religion is just the type of game that you're playing within the video game.

Oh. You know, so some people are like, my religion is Elden Ring, and this is what I worship, and my religion is Call of Duty. But the reason I say that is also because if you spend enough time observing either video games or religion, you realize how many parts of them overlap. You know, I play so many video games that at some point I'm like, oh, I've done this before, I've seen this before. This is the same concept. This is the same principle. All right, here we go again. The same happens in religion, funny enough, is people don't realize how much they are experiencing and saying the same thing. And I say this in a good way, by the way, because I think it means people are more similar than we like to think we are.

Yeah. My grandma used to say a thing where she was like... About video games? No, about religion. What does she play? What is she? She's more of a Red Dead Redemption fan. Yeah. I thought you were just going to be like, my grandma used to say a thing.

Whenever she'd log in to Call of Duty, she'd be like, let's go! Body bag them all. No, my grandma would say this thing about how, you know, don't really be fooled by what people say and sometimes even some of their actions. Whatever you think about the most is your God. And I was like, oh yeah, that's pretty hard to argue. Whatever you think about the most is your God. Yeah.

Damn, that's... Well, it's interesting. The other comparison between religion and video games is actually, and it ties it into Elon Musk, is this idea, have you heard of the simulation hypothesis? Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. He's a big fan of that idea, isn't he? So a lot of atheists believe that we're in a simulation,

like a video game. And when we die, we kind of, our avatars that we're currently inhabiting are gonna fall away and we're gonna actually wake up in a More real reality. Oh, I didn't I didn't know that theory. I didn't hear the one about us actually waking up somewhere Yeah, and that's just like a video game. You're playing this little character Yeah, and then you look around, you know You shut off the TV and you look around and you're actually in a much more real 3D surround sound world. So...

I don't know how I feel about that version of the theory because I have learned to know and love myself and it freaks me out now thinking that I might take goggles off my face and just be like some other random person. And be me. Goggles off my face and just be like some other random person me That would I mean look look speaking objectively as your friend I Love myself, too But I I would feel like oof that that's a rough one to go from you to me because I I think I'm great

But you would be shorter you'd have considerably less going on. You'd be very available. Yo, can I ask you, you know what would be so funny? Is what if this is why we're friends and this is life? Is that I wanted to know what it's like to be you and you wanted to know what it's like to be me on the other side. And now we're like, let's go to the simulation and see what it's like. And now we're living our lives as each other.

And then we get to take the goggles off on the other side. I think you would take your goggles off and be like give it my damn life back. Let me ask the two of your question here. If you could design a religion, what would you design? Either of you can go first. I realize I just spr spraying this on you. Okay, so first of all, one of the most important things and how I combat against cults outside of watching lots of documentaries, so I know what's what when things are getting culty, is communion and community. And I think that having a weekly or bi-weekly meeting, and not even necessarily for specific worship, but just for community to hang out. And then also I think that there would be a form of,

how do you put it, like passing of like resources and goods, because I think one of the biggest things that you see in community around celebrity, right? Is that people who are perceived as the quote unquote, the sort of best celebrities and the most beloved are the ones that managed to give back. So like, even with, even with like my fans is a weird word, but just with people who, who follow me or like me, I try to drive like, Hey, this person is really cool, check out their work or this this person is going through something, let's help them out. Because then you also have a sort of passing along of resources and not that hoarding, so community would be one of the biggest drivers.

OK, OK. I like Church of Josh. Well said, Josh, and really so many great ideas, and I'm 100% on board with your religion. I think the biggest part of the mental health crisis with young people these days is isolation, and devices and social media make you feel like you're connected to people, but it's false connection. It's not friendship. And so real community assembling in song, in meditation, in prayer, in dance is really important. I think this religion for me, I think a connection to nature is something that we've lost as a species. And I think that a reverence for and a finding the sacred and the beautiful in nature is a really important part of any religious or spiritual practice for me.

But I think the biggest one, it'd be really simple. It'd be like sacrifice something of yourself for the betterment of and connection with someone less fortunate and also someone different than you. That ultimate altruism, that should be the main spiritual practice. You guys are very thoughtful religions that you've started. Very beautiful and thoughtful religions. Very boring as well. I don't know if I'll come to your religions. So, let me tell you what I'll do.

First things first, I'm going to start off with a God, all right? Like a three-sided God that looks like everyone and every... So, like I try and bring like every race, every gender type, like you spin it around and so it mirrors you, right? And then I'll come up with like some good name for the God. You know what I mean? It'll be like, it'll be like Trabiiga, like something like, it's gotta be like something big. Trabiiga.

Carl is not gonna work, Rain. Carl is not helping us. Carl works in HR. I always thought God should look like Danny Trejo. That's a badass. Actually, that would be, that's a good look for God. You need God to have like a vibe, like you need God to feel like God can whip some ass, you know?

But that's, but lovable at the same time. Like you kind of want to hug him at the same time. Yes, like Santa but ripped. Okay, now at my church, we will meet two, three times a week. Like you said, Josh, I think it's important for people to come together. Most important thing we're going to do is we're going to dance. We're going to dance hard, right? Dance together, dance hard, dance hard, dance hard.

Everyone moving in unison, going crazy, going crazy. Maybe we'll like pump some stuff into the air as well. I don't know, we're still figuring it out. We're also going to have like a big raffle. So, what we do at my church is we're going to do a big collection, but somebody wins that collection every week at the church, right? So the lottery. Josh, please, I didn't interrupt you, nor did I disparage your church. Just listen.

So what's going to happen at my church is we're going to have a collection plate, but the collection goes to somebody at that very same service, right? Because what I want to teach people is when you give, it might come to you. And so that, like how much you give is like, you know what I mean? Let's see what happens if nobody gives, then nobody gets, right?

There'll be mandatory sex for the people with the people who consent to it. We're not forcing anybody to, but you got to have sex. You got to make it sexy. You know what I mean? It's like good time vibes. And yeah, we're going to do that. And movie nights are very important.

We're going to do movie nights. And this is going to be my church. His church to me sounds like a retirement community. Because a good retirement community has all of those things. Damn. Now I feel like I need to join the senior center. Why do you have to wait to be old to join those? It's best.

If you come in too young, it does just feel like you're gaming the system. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Well, I'll go work on it. I'll go work on it. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back,

I actually want to try and understand how you became this like super spiritual calm human being working in one of the least calm spiritual places and industries in the world. And also how you manage to be funny because most people who are very spiritual aren't necessarily considered the most funny. Yeah, that's a problem. So I need to figure out how this happened. Yeah. And we'll do that right after this.

Okay, Rain, so you know, most people, I would argue, would know you from the office, playing Dwight Schrute, one of the funniest people that has ever existed on a screen anywhere. But take me through some of your journeys. So, you're in Seattle. You are, you know, the descendant of immigrants who are fixing sewers, and you know, your family's in the business of working with their hands. First of all, did your family, were they religious? Yeah, so I grew up a member of the Baha'i faith.

And back in the late 60s when I was born, people were searching for spiritual paths. The Beatles went to visit the Maharishi, and Cat Stevens became a Muslim. And a lot of people at that time became members of the Baha'i faith, which originated in Persia, Iran in the mid-19th century. So I did grow up in this kind of religious stew, this kind of bohemian, hippie spiritual household. We would have meditation, there was incense. Baha'is believe in all the world's religions, so we would have

books on our shelves about Hinduism and Sikhism and Buddhism and Islam. So I grew up in that milieu of just talking about life and death and the meaning of life and the soul and stuff like that. I'm really grateful having had that background. But at the same time, my family was really screwed up. So my parents were in a very dysfunctional marriage and didn't really love each other. And there were a lot of problems there. Well, let me ask you something to that point then maybe. As somebody who has avidly studied and written about religion, so many of us have that similar story. We grew up in homes where people were very religious, and yet it seems like or it feels like that religion wasn't exactly a panacea for what or how these people were living. You know, like, I remember, you know, growing up very religious. And then I would see things happen in the house.

You know, I'd see like, whether it's my mom lose her tempo, I'd see family members do some crazy shit, or I'd see, and then I'd be like, wait, I don't know if I can buy into this religion thing because it seems like everything you're teaching me of the religion doesn't seem to work or doesn't seem to be applied into your lives. Do you know what I mean? I wonder if you ever had that thought as a child.

Totally. Totally. I mean, from my standpoint, and this is one of the big things that drives people away from religion is the hypocrisy. So that can be on a small level, like on my level, Baha'i faith is all about love and peace and unity. And then my parents didn't love each other and fought a lot. So it was weird to go to a Baha'i meeting and everyone's hugging and loving and talking about love and peace and unity and singing about it and then going home to a loveless family. I can imagine, yeah. In fact, where there's a lot of rage. So when you're a kid, when you're nine years old witnessing that, it's really screwed up. And then there's larger hypocrisies like the Catholic church and what

happened there and kind of evangelical hypocrisies of embracing someone like Trump that is an anathema to the life of Jesus, but yet justifying it. And this pushes people away from religion. But I do think that, again, you have to go to the source. You always have to go to the source. You have to go to the writings of the Buddha, the writings of Jesus, the writings of Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita, the writings of the Prophet Muhammad. You can't look at the religions themselves, which are so much manmade and try and connect with those kind of eternal profound truths that are contained within religions. And that's one of the many things we've lost by turning away from religion. And we've also turned away from kind of meaningful

community that is seeking transcendence. Again, we talked about worshiping, worshiping something larger than ourselves. There's a lot that we've lost as a culture from leaving religion. And at the same time, like I say, there's a lot of very, very good and justifiable reasons that people have turned away from it. Was there ever a moment in your life where you felt like, or was there ever a moment where you just abandoned? Like, have you maintained the same level of spirituality, or was there a time where you just bailed and you were like, nope, I'm just rain and I pray to rain? No, I did. I moved to New York and tried to become an actor and went to acting school.

And I just, at that point, I was 22 and I didn't want, I just wanted to party and I wanted to have sex with my girlfriend and not feel guilty about it. And I didn't want to think about God and, you know, I didn't want to think about the soul. I just wanted to be an artist and rage. And so I did a lot of that. And then, you know, like what happens to a lot of folks is I just, for a long time, I just was really unhappy. What I thought was going to give me fulfillment and fun, it was fulfilling and fun for a while until it wasn't.

And then I just kind of felt lost and I was very anxious. I had a lot of mental health issues with anxiety and depression and that kind of led my path kind of back to searching the spiritual stuff. So- That makes sense. I feel like to try to bring it all back to Seattle, the sort of searching for whether it's religion or spirituality in the whole is a lot like Boeing, right? Because right now, if you, let's say you have to fly Boeing often, you're probably like, mm, I don't know if I love this religion.

I don't think this is working for me. But flight still works as a concept. So it would be kind of short sighted to turn your back on all the flight because one company did you dirty a couple times with a couple doors. Damn, that's good. That is good. That's true. That's good. He's good. He's good. I do my best. He is indeed. That's why we pray to Josh. Please don't pray to me. I really can barely help myself. That is a good Savior, someone who saves others but cannot save themselves. Mmm, Lord Josh. I mean. But I like what you said before about like being funny.

So part of being, I'll tie this all together, part of being a nerdy guy in suburban Seattle was we watched Monty Python and we watched Saturday Night Live and we had this little weird Petri dish of trying to understand what was funny and how deadpan worked and how non-sequiturs worked and what a punchline could be and how to play characters. So here I am being kind of spiritual and nerdy and funny and we do need more funny people talking about spirituality because it gets so ponderous and precious, people talking about God and faith. And it's just like some podcasts and shows and speakers, it's just like, oh my God, just will you please fart? Will you please just rip one right now while talking about God and then Please just rip one right now while talking about God and then let us in on it. I mean, not literally let us in on it, but...

Yeah, but you know, you're right. It's interesting, like when we have these conversations about religion and how they've affected our lives and spirituality as people, I often wonder, and I like talking to very spiritual people about this, because I want to know, is there a religion where they try and find like a full-on balance? Like a religion where they go, hey, here's what's going to happen. Sometimes you're going to pray a lot, and sometimes you're going to go and have sex with your girlfriend, and you're going to have a good time. And then what you're going to go and do is you're going to go to a few parties,

then you're going to eat well, and then you're going to breathe, and you're going to pray a little bit more, and then you've got to go to Mikey's party, and then you're going to eat well and then you're going to breathe and you're going to pray a little bit more. And then you've got to go to Mikey's party and then you're going to pray some more. And then you're going to meditate for a while and then you're going to go and be quiet. And then, you know what I mean? Because you studied so many religions, I want to know, is there any religion you've come across where you've gone, Oh, wow, this is a pretty balanced vibe. You know, honestly, you speak total truth. Every religion has that in its DNA, believe it or not. It may not feel like it, but it does.

The whole reason the Buddha is pictured that like at Chinese food restaurants is because he was trying all these different spiritual paths, and one of them was like starvation and renunciation of the world. And then he had enlightenment under the bow tree, and he achieved kind of this status of nirvana and enlightenment. And he's like, you don't need to be an ascetic, and you don't need to live in a monastery, and you don't need to remove yourself from the world. And that's why he ate a big meal, and that's why he's pictured fat, because he was enjoying the things of the world. So the idea of being in faith is not to separate yourself in some way, but to have a job and have a family and have sex and enjoy food and

laugh and be with people. And that's what God wants from us. And at the same time, how do you navigate that while being altruistic and kind and merciful and just and serene and loving? That idea really is in every faith, and a lot of times it is squashed out. I always say that idea has clearly been hidden or taken out of many of the religious scripts that we've read, but they're still lingering glimpses of it. So, I grew up loving Bible stories as a kid. There were a few things I was an A student in, but Bible studies were probably one of them. And one of my favorite stories in the Bible is when Jesus is at the party and He turns water into wine. And I'll never forget that story because everyone focused on the miracle. Everyone was like, oh, Jesus, and He turned the water into wine, and they'd be like, the Lord, and He did.

And I was like, yo, what does this tell you about God, right? That Jesus was at a party, people drank, the alcohol finished, and then people were like, what do we do? There's no more alcohol. Like the way most people preach religion now is you would think that He would be like, well, now we shall go home and sleep. But Jesus was like, nah, we are getting turned and we're getting turned up. I'm going to be turning all of this water into wine and we're going to do this, people.

You know what's also crazy about that story to me? So I'm glad you brought it up because this story has bothered me since I was a kid, because that means that God was at a party and knew that the conversation was not popping. Like, he was like, this is terrible. I gotta do something. We need more. We need to light this thing up. For me, like the Bible stories, specifically the ones about Jesus, they may have happened. You know, Jesus may have gone to a party and actually turned water to wine. He may have caused there to be bread and fishes. We don't know. We weren't there. We know that Jesus existed.

But I do think that looking beyond those specific stories, there's metaphors that are really important, which is that the Word of God, the love of God, the understanding of our spiritual nature makes people who couldn't see be able to see. To see what? To see our spiritual reality. It made people who were dead, dead inside, it made them alive. And even the resurrection, like, now did his body like fly up to be with his dad? I don't know. But to me, there's something

really beautiful about the idea that in forgiveness and in grace and in mercy, the eternal part of ourselves all lifts up to be with our father in some kind of metaphorical sense. I like the feeling behind a lot of these things, but one thing you cannot deny is every time humans find something worth doing or worth following, there are other humans who find an opportunity to use that to either oppress them or manipulate them. Like if we look at modern spirituality, you know, many of us grew up in a world where everybody was religious, but it was tied to like a specific religion. What are you? People would say it confidently, I am Catholic.

You know, that they would go through the list. And then at some point I noticed people saying, no, I don't believe in anything. I'm atheist. I'm agnostic. And now the new trend I'm seeing is people saying, I'm spiritual. That's what they say, I'm spiritual. And you go on TikTok and people will talk about manifesting and they've got all these words that they use that allude to some type of prayer, but aren't prayer because they aren't praying to someone, but sometimes they are. They pray to an idea. They'll be like, to Gaia, to the universe, to the earth, to earth itself, to the spirit that connects us, to the thing. And I will say for the record, I think it's beautiful. I think it's great that people take a moment to breathe and connect,

but then inevitably, someone pops up on your feed and they're like, yes, I do agree, we should pray to Gaia. And if you come to my retreat in Costa Rica that costs $4,000 for each person, we will connect to Gaia in an even more important way. You probably can't do it in the city that you're in, that's why you need to come to Costa Rica, $4,000. $8,000 for a special Gaia connection. And then, like, I see the exact same thing that happened with so many religions where it's like, oh man, here we go, microtransactions, here we go again. I mean, $4,000 seems substantial.

That's not micro to me at all. Yeah, but this is what people, Josh, let me tell you, you'll be shocked at what people are paying these days to go to retreat. And this is what I find, you want to talk about hypocrisy, Rain? Okay. There are a few things that break my mind more than people who will be online or in the real world or anywhere, preaching to other people about how they need to let go of possessions and how they need to understand that money isn't everything and how they need to

stop trying to get and so on. And these people are making a fortune doing this. You're just like, oh man, here we go again. Totally. I mean, I see this with gurus. I mean, I see this with really wise people online on social media that have their retreats for money. And I don't begrudge anyone wanting to make a living or anything like that. I will say that for me, just to be super clear, what I'm trying to do with Soul Boom, the book, is just highlight questions, issues, ideas around using spiritual tools for personal and social transformation. And the podcast is about just exploring these ideas and talking about the meaning of life and why we're human beings. And it's spirituality, but it's mental health. It's just the rich,

messy, weird stuff of being a human being. But I'm not a guru. And you had said earlier, you even said like, oh, and you're so spiritual in navigating Hollywood. Like I'm not, like I'm anxious, I'm a fuck up, I'm screwed up, I can be a big dick, you can ask my wife, I can be incredibly selfish and incredibly anxious. So the author, Julia Cameron, who wrote The Artist's Way, one of my favorite kind of thinkers and writers, she said, I come to spirituality not out of virtue, but out of necessity.

And I kind of feel that for me, like I need spiritual juice to kind of help keep my life in balance, because otherwise I'm a train wreck. Let's do this. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to talk to you about the podcast, I want to talk to you about the book, and I want to get your opinion on astrology and manifesting and all of the ideas that most people roll their eyes at, even though they are religious and people roll their eyes at them. So let's talk about that when we come back. So Rain, you are going to be talking to people on your podcast, Soul Boom, and you're going to be asking questions of religion. You are, I mean, you're just a very kind and thoughtful person.

You know, you're open and you're willing. But are there any things that make you roll your eyes? Like when someone's like, oh, what's your star sign? Or what's your birth chart? Do you then also go into, yes, I see why they're important? Do you roll your eyes? Is there anything that makes you go, I don't know about that? CB Yeah, that's tricky. That gets tricky. So, I would roll my eyes at astrology.

AC But I would, and I say I would, except my wife loves astrology. And she's always like, what's your rising sign? What's your moon sign? And so I have to be very, I just try and remain open to the possibility that the stars can tell us something about ourselves. I don't know how that works, but I try and remain open. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think as far as astrology goes for me, this is the one olive branch I will extend just because I think that the same way that we use microscopic, like small phenomenon

under a microscope in a test tube to get a better understanding of ourselves, I think that astrology just goes the other way. We're using big, big things to get a better understanding of ourselves, I think that astrology just goes the other way. We're using big, big things to get a better understanding of ourselves. Outside of that, it depends on when you talk to me about it, because at a party, I have no patience. Wait, but on a bus you're in? Yes, because on a bus, you must really believe in that. To start a conversation with me on a bus about it, but at a party, you just sort of talking. Oh, you want the conviction, that's what you want.

Yes, exactly, exactly. You want the conviction, okay. I'm not mad at that, I'm not mad. I will say this about astrology. I find, again, I find it interesting to plot the points between things. Many of the people who will trash astrology believe in the simulation theory. And I don't see many differences between the simulation theory and astrology because fundamentally

what you're saying with astrology and the simulation theory is the same thing. You're saying that there is a predetermined outcome that is defined by a set of parameters, right? And so, if it's a simulation, it means it's code and the code is running and there's a certain input code and then there's something that's going to be outputted and that's what we're getting. So, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is happening. That's the exact same thing as astrology. You go like, all right, when this planet is here and that one's there, it creates a certain input and then you become the output and that's why you have the same people with similar Personalities who are born at the same time who do the same thing because of the packaging it's not as technical So people are more likely to go this person's an idiot and I would like them to stop speaking to me

But when someone comes in and goes well You see think of it like this if you look at the gigabytes that it would take for a human brain, and why is it that there's always the same pattern that then you're like, oh, this is very smart. Yeah. I do wonder though, Rain, like when you get very spiritual, whether it's religious or not, how do you propose protecting yourself from cults and cult vibes? You know, because there's always a religion that pops up in Hollywood and then people are like,

that's a cult, that's a cult. And some of them have very culty vibes, you know? But how do you protect yourself from that, you know? It's really easy. It's really easy, folks. Don't pay. If you gotta pay for anything involving spirituality, it's a cult. That's it.

Don't pay. I love that. Just don't pay. Don't pay. Damn, I love that. If it's going to be charging you for a weekend thing or to get to a next level and you've got to pay a fee or you've got to give your life savings or sign over a bank account, it's a cult. just plain and simple.

That is so simple. Just don't pay. It really subs it all up. Just don't pay. You know, what's amazing about that rain is this is pretty much the same philosophy us gamers have. If you, if you have a game, you play video games, there are two types of video games, there's video games that you buy and then that's it.

You play the game and then there are video games that trick you into thinking the game is free. Right. And then all they do is constantly make you pay to get to a better level and get to a higher idea and get, and if you're a gamer, you're just like, no, just don't pay. It's a scam. Do not pay. Just do not pay. Yeah, but I want my gun to have a leopard coating on it with stars and I want it to glint in the sun. Oh man. Rain, thank you so much for joining us. Soul Boom, Rain Wilson, the man who's going to take us into the new age.

He's going to develop a new religion. He's going to fix all religion. And he's going to expose all the fake religions. I got the gist of it, right? Rainn, this is exactly what you're going to be doing? Yeah, whatever you say, Trevor. That sounds good. Sign me up for that. Yeah. We're probably just going to be having some really lovely and fun conversations kind of like this one Okay, okay, but also completely re revamping and overhauling religion and fix. Okay. Sure. Sure Rain will save you on soul. Good is what I'm saying. He will save your soul all for $4,000 retreat weekend in Costa Rica. with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell 73. The show is executive produced by Trevanoa, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Marina Henke is our producer.

Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Braun. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?