What Now? with Trevor Noah - Vic Mensa: The Power of Perspective

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Trevor, Eugene, and David Kibuuka sit down with musician Vic Mensa for a conversation that moves easily between humor and hard truth. Drawing on his own experiences, Vic brings a raw, personal lens to topics like identity, privacy, and the strange contradictions of modern culture. As the conversation unfolds, it becomes a candid look at the gap between how we’re seen and who we actually are—and how much that perspective can shift depending on where you’re standing. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The worst thing about being robbed by somebody on a bicycle is that it's a very whimsical way to be robbed. Do you know what I mean? Because like if you get robbed at gunpoint, it makes you feel like you were part of something meaningful. Something extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if someone pulls out a gun and they're like, give me your phone, give me your wallet. No, but even after it happens, let's say if people were watching you, there's a certain amount of bravado that you get to maintain. For surviving a gunshot.

Wow, man, I can't believe you got robbed. I saw what happened. happened and you were there and you had to put your hands up and the person or even a knife, you know what I mean? Yeah. When you get robbed by somebody on a bicycle, it is one of, because just think of a bicycle and then the person grabs your phone. You said you were on a FaceTime.

Yes. So now they're on a FaceTime with this person. I never thought about that. So one minute, you as Vic are like, man, let me tell you what I'm doing out here. Let me tell you what I'm doing out here. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Oh, you know what happened yesterday. So I unintentionally bought a new iPhone.

Wait, before you guys carry on, can I just say you guys look like you got the same style memo? And then I was excluded from this. When are you think I don't research? So you dressed like this for Vick? South African version. I was like, if I find an orange, the guests will never know the difference.

You know, we should have got... I don't know if this is because of you. I don't want to say it's because of you. And I haven't forgotten the iPhone thing. We're going to come back to it. I have experienced an extreme citrus craving. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not, I, yo, okay, he's my witness because he sees my fridge.

My fridge always has watermelon in it. Always, always, always. Now, I have copious amounts of citrus. And I wonder, I genuinely wonder if it's partly because of you. You'll never get sick. Yeah, but I just wonder if like you've sort of, subconsciously influenced. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You created like a... I need to get a royalty from the... You probably could get sponsored by like big orange or something. And after you can go to avocados. That's the real money. Can you imagine, Vic,

pulling an avocado off the tree? First of all, the tree would be... Pulling an avocado of the tree. It's the real bread. The avocado... You have to get a knife. No, no, no. No, he still has to use his hands.

Oh! It would be mashed all over the place. smeared on my face. And then you know once an avocado gets exposed turns brown and then you'd be there for love. Nasty. Now, you can only, you can only talk about short topics. It's like, you know, and you can't waste the avocado.

They're like $10 a pop. Yeah, the guys talking deep about Iran. You think it's turning brown in his hand. Expensive avocados are American problems. Oh, man. Oh, you don't. You don't struggle with that. No, we don't.

It's actually interesting. There are some things that cost a fortune in some countries and in other countries. A friend of mine who grew up in Zimbabwe, like born and raised, their whole family, she was telling me the other day, her grandmother still refers to avocados as poverty food. So when they're in London as a family

and they go to a fancy restaurant and then they come with like an avocado with blah, and the mom literally is just like, the grandmother, she's like, why are we eating poverty food? And then they try and explain to her. They're like, no, avocados in London cost a fortune in New York they cost a fortune. So I unintentionally bought an iPhone

because I got in there and then usually like when you go to a store there'll be a price underneath the item that you want to buy. So what they do at the eye store here is the price is on the phone. So remember you used to go on the iPhone and there'll be selfies of people that have taken pictures themselves.

Okay, wait, wait. So you in Apple store. This was me. This was you? As a child, yeah, I used to just hang out in the Apple store and just like take selfies. No, you were, you're one of the

those people. Just rapping in the in the computer. So now the phones, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I got so many photos of myself, me and all my friends hanging out in the Apple store, making faces like throwing up gang signs. Did you record stuff as well? Yes. I used to, no, no, no, I used to see kids, no joke.

I used to see kids in the Apple store on the IMac making an album. Yeah, yeah, I recorded raps on there, all type of shit. No one threw you out, right? They did throw us out. Oh, okay. And then we came back. Do you know where those albums are? Do you know what the music is?

Facebook. Like all buried secrets. I feel like they shouldn't throw you out. I feel like that should be part of like the Apple stores. How can I explain it? If you create like a subculture within an Apple store that people come in to try and create things so that they can blow up,

I argue that's one of the greatest marketing campaigns that's... It's tight. You know what I mean? There's like a cool vibe to... You could... That guy in the corner could be the next. big thing. That girl over there singing into the little iPhone microphone, she could be the next big thing. And then Apple just has this as like a, yeah, you never know. Yeah, but once it becomes

a thing, people will spend too much time there. Oh, yeah, racism too. So now, actually, a bunch of little black kids, like, you can't take chances with the talent they may have. You know, because the present threat, you know what I'm saying? Always the potential for talent. Well, I like that line, though. The present threat. What did you say? potential. I said it outweighs the potential for talent in the mind of society, for sure. Oh man, that's actually... Deep as fuck.

Yeah, that's actually deep on so many levels. Because how much risk should a society be willing to take for the potential of the great talent? Do you know what I mean? Like if you were... It's easy for us to say it from like an institutional point of view. But like, let's say you... saw something in your kid that was scary but could go on to become the greatest thing ever.

Do you hinder that? I see it in my kid now. He just smacked somebody in the face yesterday. You're like UFC. I'm like, yeah, this guy's a fighter. It could be a champion. But he just smacked his mom in the face too. How do you deal with that?

Because on our side of the world, that's not a story that could be told in that way. In what way? The way you just told the story seems like that is the. conclusion of it, right? My kid, or I'm assuming what happened afterwards? So he is a tourist, which I'm learning is really the bull. Like they're very stubborn. Okay. My father's a tourist, but he's patient and maybe a different kind of tourist. My son is like me, but a tourist. And so he's like coming to blows with things. You know what I'm saying? And now he's in daycare. So those things are people. And he's. And he's, you know,

He sees other kids to have toys. He doesn't have any siblings. He doesn't really, no sharing. How old is he? He's about to be two. Okay. He's about to be two next week. Sounds like a three-old problem.

Yeah, for sure. And he sees kids with toys. He wants their toy. He tries to take it. The kid doesn't want him to take it. He hits. My girlfriend comes to try to correct him. Mansa, his name is Mansa Musa.

He said, Manso, you need to apologize to this kid. Here's her too. So, does he have the full name, Mansem. Manse-Musa or just Manza only. Manza-Msa, Mensa, triple M. That's the, and my Ghanaian cousins, they call him triple M. Triple M. And they've recently, they've recently started to call him my nigger.

Wait, who calls him this? That daycare. That's like, you were like any smackdown. Tell me a niggins, nigg. Stop it, nigger. No, my Ghanaian cousins, I don't know what happened. It's like, so once he hit two, and now I post pictures of him and they respond in my My story like, my little nigger is getting so big.

And me and my girl are like, what? It has a different vibe in Africa, though. Yeah. It's just like a, you know. It's funny because they just don't know how to use it right. No, that's what I was about to say. Who day? My cousin.

No, but in South Africa. Africans too. I mean, South Africa's too. I mean, it don't sound right when y'all say it. No, it's true. We say, we will even say, we will. We will say, Abo, my nigger. Yeah.

Which refers often to, like, African Americans in hip hop. What does abo my nigger mean? It means like the plural of like, it's like... All of my niggas. No, no, no, no. Those niggers. The my niggers. Yes.

The my niggers. Yes. Abo means the. Abo is like, yeah, it's the collective. The collective of my niggers. Yeah, so it's like saying guys from over there. Yeah, but it can also be the guys in South Africa as well. No, no, no, no, no, it's not.

It's not because it can be guys in South Africa as well. 100%. How does Abou-Manniga coincide with Ubuntu? Just pause for one second. Am I on care? Are you listening to what I'm saying? Pause for one second.

This kind of talk that you guys are having, it skips the general white market and goes to that white other white market. Do you know what I mean? Which white market? White markets. That's Abu Mnaker. So it's not racist.

It's not racist at all. Because that is you're nick No no no no So let me explain No no let me explain Let me explain So let me explain So what happens sometimes

That I think that I think is beautiful Is as a It's funny Sort of like the avocado thing We're talking about So as words move around From place to place As ideas move around

From place to place They take on a different meaning That can be similar But not the same Right So the N word Is a great example of that Because it was never used

In Africa It doesn't have the same weight even though people understand it through a historical context and through a current context, right? But because there's also a cultural difference in South Africa, many of us grew up influenced by hip-hop culture, right?

And one of the things, before you could even like speak English, I remember my cousin would be like rapping along to Tupac and then one of the things you'd say, he'd be like, I want a man, I want to be therely me, I want to be therely, yo, yo, my man, yo, yo, my man. Yo, yo, my nigger.

Then you just say that. That's what you just knew you have to say to be in hip hop. Those two words were used interchangeably. Yes. My man and my nigger. Then what happened was over time, if you were somebody who was in hip hop, you were then referred to by people who weren't in hip hop as abo my nigger. So they would say it for.

No, first it was am I nigger. That's true. Ama nigger, that's true, which is plural. The rappers. Yeah, the rappers. Yeah, the guys wearing du rags, oversized fubu shirts. And then there's no, and there's no, it's not. It's a thin line between love and racist.

But it's also, it's also how you say. If you say, I'm a nigger. Uh-uh. Yeah. Ama niga. Yeah, now it's that's the one. So it's got a double E. Yeah, that's the one that's dope.

Yeah. That's like, ah, man. It makes me think about how I learned that race is a false concept and that is fictitious. I mean, growing up in America, obviously I grew up as a black man, black boy before that. at some point was considered biracial, but that kind of fades. And when I went to South Africa, though, and I'm meeting colored people with the OU, you know what I mean? And this is a completely different societal distinction. And I realized that people are considering me to be colored and that I'm not black.

And I'm like, no, I'm black. They're like, you're absolutely not black, you know. And it's such a different distinction of what is black versus what is not black in South Africa. Then when I go to Ghana, they call me Obronie. Obronni means white man. It means foreigner, but it also has a slightly, like, praised connotation in a colonial sense.

Shongamla. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like a foreigner, but it's a bit uplifted. It's an exalted foreigner. An exalted foreigner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'll call me a white man. So I'm in this house where I'm staying,

and the man who works in the home sees that I'm about to go outside. It's like 9 p.m. I'm trying to go find some food. Ghana's very safe. You know what I'm saying? So I'm going to go find some food. I'm like, you know, putting on my shit. And he's like, where are you going?

And I'm saying, I'm about to go get some food. He said, ah, ha, ah. Ghanes, they do not like when white people go out at night. And I'm like, me? White people go out at night. I'm like, if you don't get the fuck out of my way, like I'm from Chicago, I'm from a very dangerous place. Like, I'm going outside.

But I thought that was so funny to me that I was so not a black person in a Ghanaian context, like that I was enough of a white person that I should be fearful for going outside alone at night. Yeah, and I'm... Yeah, I went. Of course. Well, I didn't find shit. They don't have nothing going on at 9 p.m. in Ghana.

It's not even like that. But can I ask you? You know, it's funny you say that thing. Do you ever wonder whether or not the bona fides you have where you're from hold up in another place? Because you see what you just said. You're like, I'm from Chicago. I don't, you know?

Oh, yeah. I sometimes think about that. I go, yeah, there's machetes. Yeah, but that's it. No, for real. What are you having in Chicago again? No, but that's what I mean. I went to Jamaica, man.

One time I got to Jamaica, you know what I'm saying? And my flight was kind of disrupted. I had the wrong passport. My manager had gave me his passport. I'm sitting in the airport. for like 16 hours. I'm frustrated. I try to sneak in the shit, all type of shit.

When I eventually made it there, I got a chip on my shoulder. So I'm like, this was a three-day long trip. And I spent the first day. And I spent the first fucking day in a fucking Montego Bay airport. And so I get there, you know, when you're in Jamaica, many places, that local guys will just try to accompany you to get tips. You know what I'm saying? And so the local guy, he jumps in the car.

He's like, oh, I'm going to tell you where you're going. you're going this way, you know, and I'm like, okay. And we get there, and eventually he wants his tip. Yep. You know, and once again, my Chicago thing is clicks on. And as I feel like he's kind of trying to strong army into his tip, I'm like, what the fuck is you talking about? I'm from Chicago.

You're not going to, you know what I'm saying? Strong army out of shit. And later that day, though, I went to the hotel pool. And I'm like, man, you know, You know what? Let me inspect the validity of this I'm from Chicago claim in Jamaica. And I looked... No, I didn't tip him that time.

But I looked up the murder rate of Jamaica. I looked up the murder rate of Jamaica. I was like, I'm tipping everybody. I mean, the tip would have been like 25 cents. I was like, these niggas will kill me. They should be telling me I'm from Jamaica. You better give me what I'm asking for. So you're like, Jamaican murder rate?

10 times faster than you'll kill us. So you Google Jamaican murder rate and exchange rate? You were like, that's not worth it. I did the computation and I realized I'm 10 times more likely to get killed by them than they are by me. And the tip is like 10 cents in total. Oh, fuck. I won't like. I know it's an ignorant point of view to have, but I never understand it when I'm in Jamaica.

So Jamaicans will warn me. So when I was in Jamaica, it's funny, our flight was disrupted. So we were supposed to fly out of Montego. And then they were like, no, you got to go to Kingston so you can get out because flights had changed. And then when we're in Kingston, someone was like, they're like, you don't want to, you don't want to go anywhere. They're like, don't go. Yeah, because I was like, I've never been to Kingston. I was like, I'm going to go walk around and see that.

And it's like, no. He's like, you can't do that. Yeah, it's like, you can do that. I hate it when people do that. Then I was like, what do you mean? I can't. Then he's like, it's not safe for you to walk around. And I was like, yo, I'm going.

I was like, I'm from Johan. I did the same thing. I was like, I'm from Johannesburg. And then I, that's when I had the realization. I went, aha, that's the mistake you're making. You're from Johannesburg. So you assume your street smarts hold up in this place. You assume that your tactics hold up in this place.

But now you're coming here with like avocado mentality. And then the people here are just going to be like, nah. But that's the thing with being black, it's, it almost like it goes with anything. You can either blend in or stick out. So when you're in Europe and you're black, you're like, ah, I stick out. But when you're in anywhere where there's black people, in Africa, in America, you're like, yeah. Because I make the mistake of speaking to African Americans like they know what I'm saying.

Like I understand you. Like, exactly. Like they know what I'm saying. Eugene will literally do that, by the way. Yeah. Because your brain does. Eugene will switch to African languages all the time with African-Americans. It doesn't compute.

Yeah. Yeah. Eugene, there's one day who would stop, and then you said to a guy, you're like, eh, exe, eta, exe. And then I said, Eugene, he doesn't understand what you're saying. I get that because when I just saw a glimpse of you on the screen in the back room, I didn't know you was South African until you spoke. You didn't stop speaking. I can tell in time.

Yeah. I can always tell, I can always identify the Africans. It's just I can. But like, sometimes in that first moment, that glimpse might not give me the whole picture. You know what I'm saying? Where would you think Eugene is from? Does he look like he's from a part of Philly? Philadelphia.

Oh, my Zulfoilu, Anna. Till he did that. Until he did that. My mouth, what you're wrong with him. He stood up. That's all his butt. I mean, like, this guy's from South Africa. Biggest man on the planet.

This guy just said, a gay man to be in heaven. He's coming to South Africa. He couldn't get it. He divides his fucking south. Don't look the niggas show up in South Africa. Oh, man. And never go home. No, but you're right, though, about going to places and not realizing that your, like, worldview from home doesn't apply.

Like, I was in Montreal one time and walking down the street talking to my buddy on the phone, FaceTime. Got a French girl with me. I'm stunting. I'm like, yeah, man, you know, niggas out here. I'm real international. you know, I'm doing my thing, you know what I'm saying? And a man rode by me on a bicycle, on a road bike. He's just pedaling and I'm stunting.

And the man just grabbed the phone and kept riding fast as hell. I'm so so stunned. You know what I'm saying? Because this is a very beautiful place. I'm thinking I can physically overpower anybody that tries to rob me in this place. But I wasn't ready for the crackhead on the bike. And so I chase him, can't catch him. You know what I mean?

I was going as wild goose chase to try to find my phone. I'm doing find my iPhone. I trace my shit to a park full of crackheads on bikes. So many crackheads on bikes. I can't distinguish who. Your crackhead. I don't know who's the one that's my crackhead, literally, exactly. I don't know which crackhead is my crack cat.

See, this is when it gets racist. Oh, sorry. But so one of them came out. We're fighting that too. One of them came out, you know, and I'm like, man, this might be the one. So now I'm racist, you know, I'm like, this might be the one. And so I'm like, man, you know what I'm saying? Did you happen to, you know what I'm saying?

Do you got an iPhone, you know? And he pulled out like a way older iPhone. He's like, I didn't steal no iPhone. I got this is an iPhone. Oh, he said, what kind of iPhone is iPhone 13? He said, this is iPhone 6, nigga. I'm crazy. I apologize.

You know. Where's your girl on all of this? She actually was riding with me She was trying to find the phone Oh wow She was riding with me the whole time This ain't my girl You know, I have a girl

But this was a girl Yeah, iPhone 13 girl iPhone 6 iPhone 6 And you know I wouldn't apologize to the nigger Whatever I'm trying to find my phone In this bike

In this crackhead on bike park Can I just say Just to interject there I'm always intrigued by people Who present as crazy Say they are crazy But then request something that is quite logical.

An apology. He's, I'm crazy! Now, apologize. I'm like, if you were crazy, you wouldn't care about apologies. Also, true. Yeah, for real. It was crazy, though. He was crazy.

He was crazy. I don't know. Wait, so now, here you are in a park full of crack heads. And I didn't find a phone. I found some crack. You know, I try to get the phone. Like, I don't have your phone, but I have crack, you know. And they try to give me some crack.

And the police come, whatever. and all the crackheads dispersed in different directions. I didn't get my phone, but I did learn a valuable lesson, which was don't be trying to stunt in someone else's environment because you just don't know what challenges you may face. You know what I'm saying? It might not seem as dangerous as the streets of the south side of Chicago, but I didn't know that they robbed niggas in different ways in Montreal.

The worst thing about being robbed by somebody on a bicycle is that it's a very whimsical way to be robbed. Do you know what I mean? Because like if you get robbed at gunpoint, it makes you feel like you were part of something meaningful. Something extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if someone pulls out a gun and they're like,

give me your phone, give me your wallet. No, but even after it happens, let's say if people were watching you, there's a certain amount of bravado that you get to maintain. For surviving a gunshot. Wow, man, I can't believe you got robbed. I saw what happened and you were there and you had to put your hands up and the person, or even a knife, you know what I mean? Yeah.

When you get robbed by somebody on a bicycle, it is one of, because just think of a bicycle and then the person grabs your phone. You said you want to FaceTime. Yes. So now they're on a FaceTime with this person. I never thought about that. So one minute, you as Vic are like,

man, let me tell you what I'm doing out here. Let me tell you what I'm doing out here. Now they're riding away, but you're in the background chasing them. Nobody looks cool. Yeah. Chasing something that is way faster than them. So when you chase another human being,

it also looks unrealistic. Very whimsical. Yeah, when you chase another human being, you both are running. When someone's riding a bicycle and you're chasing the bicycle, you just look like a child left behind by something. Like all your swag. It was like a clown show for sure.

It was a clown show. All my swag with the girl was kind of. It's gone. But I love that she stuck with you, man. She did. No, that's actually really impressive. I almost feel like she was in on it now. I kind of do too because she then sent me a phone

like a handful of years later saying that she had found it. I don't know, I didn't buy it though. She had found it? I feel like she just wanted to come to my house. Vic, you got played. Yeah, no, you got played. I got played. This feels like a scam.

She's the one that really- Yeah, yeah, no. What did you find the phone? How do you find a phone randomly in another country? She's from there! She doesn't have his find my iPhone? She was coordinating with the crudgeon the whole time. Oh man, you told this guy the wrong thing.

You told... So, let me ask me question. Does Ghana feel like a version of the whole thing? version of home now. Because you go there quite a lot. Yeah, Ghana does, man. You know what I mean? I started going to Ghana when I was 11.

And so I've like... Who on your parents? My father's Ghana. So father's gone in. Yeah. So I've been going back to Ghana for more years of my life than not. And at this point I've like developed a lot of my own long-stander relationships. Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. You know me? And so it definitely, it is home. It's the place I've been most on the planet outside of Chicago. and probably L.A. or something like that. Wow, that much. For sure. Definitely outside of America is the place I've been the most.

What is the thing you find about Ghana that brings you a piece of home that you can't achieve otherwise? I asked this question selfishly because I've started realizing, I was talking to Eugene about this the other day, we're walking around in Johannesburg, in South Africa. And I was saying to Eugene...

Because, you know, we thugged like that. You told this guy the worst thing. I know it is stuck down to Johannesburg. So we're walking in Hillbra. And I was saying to you, Gene. Because we're not scared of anyone. I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm scared. We're definitely scared.

No, what I was what I was saying was you take for granted. I've always taken for granted how much a place can keep pieces of you and create pieces of you. Do you know what I mean? So the reason I ask you about like that home side of things is because there's another Vic in. Ghana. Yeah, I want to know like what came out of you because of Ghana that maybe you wouldn't have experienced otherwise just being in the U.S. or being in Chicago. It's much more peaceful. And it's much slower pace. Like America, we are confined by time. Like we're obsessed with it. We schedule our days in 30 minute increments. Like I've got this meeting. Then I have this Zoom call.

And then I have this lunch. Then I have a breakfast. You know what I mean? I have so many. scheduled events, try that in Ghana. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not going to happen because people don't operate like that. People are not beholding to time in the same way. And it could be six hours late for something and that's just like regular.

It's not even late. That's kind of on time. It's just something to expect. And as I'm spending time in Ghana, there's always a process of like low-key decolonizing my mind as it pertains to time to allow things to happen at their own pace more

and to stop being so rigidly connected to my ideas of time and schedule. And it becomes more of a peaceful experience. Do you think it made you more chilled as a person? I think when I'm there, but then I get too chill and then I try to come like eight hours late to some shit and I miss the whole thing, you know. I'm still trying to be.

to find the balance, you know? Like, how do I fit in this while still like accomplishing shit? It's always a little bit of a tug of war, but in general, do I do admire the way that people in West Africa, people in the Caribbean are not so controlled by time, like not so in fear of time. I feel like Americans live in a constant fear of missing the moment, you know, but being in the moment is the way to not miss the moment. Yeah, even the phrase wasting time, I find is one that is often used in America and in

the West in a way that isn't used in, at least in my experience, in Africa or in the Caribbean. You can't waste time because time's always happening. You don't have it. You never have it. So you're either doing with it what you please or you're not doing with it what you, but you cannot waste time, you know. Can I interject, please? Is it possible for me to interject?

Yeah, but I was actually going to say this about you. I was going to say you'd be proud to know, you know, because you inspire me to read books about things. Thought to waste time. No, no, no, you do. There's a book that I read actually that was saying, like, this thing is actually quite real. But it actually goes to the environments that people came from. So people in Africa, especially in like West Africa, Central Africa, etc., the Caribbean, never suffered food scarcity due to where. or to time.

So they never needed to develop a relationship with time. Yes. Because time didn't define your ability to exist. Yes. Right. But if you grew up in places like Sweden, England, etc., time was the difference between living and dying. If you missed the time of the crops,

if you missed the time of planting, if you missed the time of a carriage that was going to pick you up in the snow, it's death. So time is more important to Europeans. People in African, Caribbean, could just go get that avocado at any time. Yeah, exactly.

No, but I thought you would appreciate that, Dave. Sorry, yes. No, I do appreciate that. That is... That's crazy. That is... Great. No, no.

The thing, no, the thing that this reminds me of is yesterday... The whole thing. Sorry. I'm telling Vic. Yesterday, Trevor texted me. And he was like, let's chat about what we're going to do with, you know, this podcast. and that whole thing of today. You know that kind of thing because we yesterday.

Then he said in his text, this is related to time, in his text, he said, I'll call you at 2.30. I feel like this guy is just using this opportunity to expose me, but let's carry on. No, no, no. No, this is all part of it. I'm sure, yes, carry on, David. It ends with me being condemned, but please, please continue. Just where we are, the main character over here,

I said, I'll text you at 230. Then he didn't text at 230. Oh, he said, I'll phone you at 230. He didn't phone at 230. Then he phoned at 7.30 to your point of Africans. No, really. He phoned at 7.30, which I'm also an African, so I didn't. When he said I'll text at 230, I didn't have that like, oh, I'll phone at 230.

I didn't have that, you know, at all, because I'm African. But when we did get to 7.30 when he called, if you hadn't called at all, I would have been fine with it. I'd have been like, well, he didn't call. We'll meet the next day. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I'll call you at 5 to talk about tomorrow. I didn't call you.

I'll just assume he's doing something. Then we meet the next day. You know, you get where I am as a person. Cool. But then at 7.30, because I've known this guy for many years. So at 7.30, he called me. He did call. But he called, you know when someone sort of like calls you?

When, because they know that you won't like really be able to pick up the phone. No, this bullshit. No, no, no, no, no, wait. They hang up after two rings. No, no, no, no. You know that's what you're in the kitchen. I won't say anything. That's what happened.

I won't say anything. I don't tell you how. Because seven, you know that thing. Well, you know, we know it's like because I call directly afterwards. You know when it rings one, two, three and then it goes off, then you ring back directly afterwards. They should pick up. They're shocked that you called back.

No, he didn't pick up. He didn't pick up. Of course he was shocked. No, because he was trying. He was going, okay. I can't call him at, I can't call him at 2 a.m. because then obviously he's sleeping. Do you know that kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I can't call him at four because then he won't be like engaged in something. He'll pick up. So then this guy's going like, when is it time when he's barely? When is a time when I know that it will be a, it will be here. I called. It will be, I called you in the bathroom. Most likely you in the bathroom. No.

So I called you direct two seconds and then I called again. And then... Wait, so he didn't pick up the first time. So this is what happens because I was in an Indian restaurant. I knew this would be me being snitched on. No, no, no. This is what happens. Ding, ding, ding.

Then I was doing a thing. Then I was like, I'm just fine now. Ding, ding, thing. Off. Not even many rings. Then I go, because it comes back, then I go call back. You know what I mean? No call.

Because then I know this is, he was just trying to do that. Tick a box. Yes, tick a box. Then what happened is I stopped I left it because maybe You know what I mean For like two minutes You know what I mean

Then yeah Because you're giving the space to call back Yes then I called a game So now I look like an idiot Then I then I called again And then he didn't pick up Then you know like you know Because it's a WhatsApp call

The WhatsApp also makes you feel more thirsty than you are Because WhatsApp tells you if a motherfucker Been on the phone I'm this nigga Trevor Noah was available Two minutes ago And then WhatsApp also does that thing where it says, would you like to record a voice message?

I don't want to record a voice message. I'm not the one. He's calling me. And then... You didn't start this. Yes, I just started it. And even the promise of I'll call you at 230. Why?

Yeah, yes. This is a good place to explain. Why I got a new iPhone? No. People have very different experiences in life. And I think one of my gifts has always been being able to understand that everyone is consuming the same reality

from their perspective. Don't make it deep. Don't make it deep. Let me explain why. He's going to say I have AD, HD or whatever. He tells everybody to have. No, let me explain. So. What if he says AIDS? I love your experience. I'll tell you what happened. This is actually great.

It's a very poignant thing to chat about, you know. I feel like Vic will even have great opinions on this. So you are correct. I said to you, I'll call you at 230. Why did you say 230? Because that is when my previous engagement was going to end. So I knew my thing ends at two.

Oh, you wanted to catch momentum. So I was like, my thing ends at two. I can make the call by 2.30. Okay? Also, remember, this is unprompted. I'm not asking for... I'm not asking for... He's not asking for the...

He's just putting you in a wild goose chase. Yes, but wait. I'm not asking for this goal. Yeah, yeah, but wait, wait, wait, do we need a tight on your side. No, it was okay. All right. The, um, so...

This guy used to record albums at the ice store. No, you never know, but I mean, he's cool with anything. But, you know, there's tricks to these things sometimes. It's like a little, you know. So, okay. So this is what I'm saying. The 230, you are completely correct, my friend. And let me first say, before saying anything else, I apologize.

I don't apologize. I don't accept. I don't accept. I don't accept because you're trying to know. No, wait. First of all, let me say I apologize for sending the 230. No, now, now, let me explain what happened. I don't accept.

Let me explain what happened. I don't accept on your behalf. No. No, so how I get around. I get around, I get around riding a bicycle. That's how I prefer. Wait, this is how I get around. It's him.

You should have looked harder. So I get around riding a bicycle, right? Okay? Ride bicycles, right bicycles. So the thing that I planned didn't end at the time that I thought I'd planned. Then I get on a bicycle. So now I cannot make this call. Riding the bicycle, riding the bicycle, get to the next thing.

Now I've missed the time. Should have said something, but didn't. Fine. But I also know, no, no, no. Making AirPods on a bike is terrible because the wind goes into the. and maybe this new CEO at Apple will fix this. There's so much wind that goes in that the other person on the other side,

that's all they're hearing. So I was like, there's no point in making this call. I also knew that my friend, if he was plagued by the time, he would say like, yo, yo, yo, we need to chat. I wasn't plagued by the time. No, I knew this. So let me explain what happened now. When I made the call, 7.30, I just finished something.

I was done. 7.30, I made the call. I was like, all right, call. Now, this is a pet peeve that I have. that is actually affecting people's friendships, might I say? No. WhatsApp lies about how many rings are occurring. When you phone somebody on WhatsApp,

this is a deep lie you're about to go. Can I tell you something? Let me tell you something about my pet peeve, my friend. And remember, I'm the tech guy. Don't forget this. WhatsApp lies to you. Let me explain to you. WhatsApp will lie to you.

Your phone will be ringing. You go dial. It'll start. ringing on your end, but it's not ringing on the other end. No, but calling and ringing is two different things. No, no, no, no, no. It does that sometimes but still, it will ring on your so what I'll do, like with Lawrence, for instance, I'll

say, how long did that ring on your side? He'll be like, it rang once. I'm like, nah, I've been waiting for like 10 rings on my side. We track this on purpose. WhatsApp will make it seem like it's ringing on the other side, but it's not ringing. You think you've been waiting for long. The other person hasn't waited. When I called you, you know how long

you know how long it ran for? You know the wrongful? who said this. The last person who said this was literally Albert Einstein. Do you remember he said the theory of relativity? Time is different on what your side. Time is this guy is trying to. No. No, no, no.

So what happens is, so on his side, no, so on his side, what happens is you say it rang and then it was done. I waited for long. No, no, I'm telling you, from my side, it rang it, rang it, rang it, rang. How long did you wait? It rang for a very long time. Then I was like, aye, this guy is clearly not next to his phone and he's not on his phone.

Done. Then I got onto a bicycle. So if you phoned me while I'm on a bicycle, I'm now not going to answer that call. Why? I'm not pulling out my phone while I'm riding. He's on a bike. I'm on a bike, my friend.

I'm on a bike now. I'm not going to pull out my phone. So now you're calling me back while I'm on a bike. The calls come in. You see, if you had airports, you would have said. At the end of the journey, at the end of the journey, then I look at my phone. There are many things.

that have been missed. But I'm like, you know what? We'll get to them another time and another day. And I know that my friend isn't stressed by them. And that's how we move on. I wasn't. Do you have your phone with you? Either way, I apologize.

Well, I was yes. Do you have your phone with you? Yes. But I don't even want to test that. The thing that, no. No, no. Because I want to hear how many rings? I'm going to do it right now.

Because I have a theory that it could be the ringtone. You could have those ring tones that go pram-prim-prim. This is. And then he's like, boob. They can ask you a question. How many friends do you have in your life that might actually be your people who are trying to bring you down I got a handful of far more sinister

frenemies than this Okay, let's see here, let's see speaker, it's ringing already One Yeah, but we're on the same Wi-Fi Now you're looking for Wait, do it again When I shay ringtone la po

On full volume, when a speaker lapone Yes, but we're on the same Wi-Fi Maniga We're on the same Wi-Fi here Doesn't matter The call is a call because I want to hear the ringing versus his ringing.

I'm going to try again. I'm going to try again. I called you even just before. This is what technology does to us in society. That's why we're in society, guys. Can I just say? No. Can I just say, Vic, let me out.

Actually, you know, Vic, you know, Vic, this is a perfect segue. This is a perfect segue. You know, Vic, this is a perfect segue for me to ask you. As somebody who, as somebody who uses, as somebody who uses technology. to connect with people do you ever fear its ability

to disconnect you from people and I mean this you know so you actually got me April 1st you put out the video I remember being very sad Vic put out a video saying he was quitting Instagram when he was playing with us

and he was quitting speaking publicly and it was slides each slide I got more emotional I got more sad he's talking about all the money he's lost for being outspoken. He's talking about how, you know, it's not worth it anymore.

He's just going to go into a hole and not say anything in society. Yo, I was deep and I was feeling it. And then the last light, he was like April Fool's. Yeah. I didn't appreciate that. Because I thought at some point we just get over April Fool's, but not Vic Mensa. That was fine every time. But, no, but you know what it did.

It honestly did bring up. I thought to myself, I was like, yeah, but like, you're putting out these videos at a pretty frequent rate now. The one thing you can't control is where the videos go, how the videos go, how people even pick out a piece from the video, splice it together. Because you've curated something. You've put out a message. But then there's somebody out there who's going to take the message and cut it and make

it seem like Vic Mensa said this or make it seem like Vic Mensa said that. How do you process it and does it affect what you do or do not say? Sorry, just for this is a real thing. Before you go into that, for those who don't know, let's have. my mom was watching. Do you know what I'm saying? Just could you describe the videos? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Okay. No, if you actually, no, this is a good, this is a good point. For those who don't know, it's the, you've seen them. Yeah. If you, I think Dave is secretly telling us he hasn't seen them. I have seen them. No, no, let me tell you what they are. Dave, Dave, Dave does this sometimes.

You'd be like, pretend my mom, but it's really him. So Dave, Vic Mensa, you probably know him from his, his rap career, hip hop, etc. Fashion, all of these things. But recently, Vic has blown up online. for creating a series where he speaks to issues happening in the world and I think the biggest thing

that's made... In his backyard. In his backyard. Or a backyard. I'm not assuming it's his. Is that your backyard? Oh, no. So, and what's made it really engaging

is not just the content. It's like the style and the way that he does it. So he picks an orange off of a tree. First. And then he walks up to the camera and he starts discussing something while he's peeling the orange

and then he eats the orange. And, And sometimes he looks at the orange while he's peeling it. Yeah. And then I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know why or how this happens. But you, you go, sometimes you look. Yeah. Because that's what made me realize the real orange.

Oh, you thought it might have been AI. But when your thumbs were in it and then you were like. Yeah. Because some oranges are harder than other orange. They are. This is true. This is true. You actually have to think about it.

Yeah. But anyway, these, this is huge. Nominated for a Webby now. It's become, it's, it's, it's, it's become a piece of. internet culture in a way, you know when you know you've achieved that is when people parody it. So I've seen people now go to a tree and pick another fruit to do a joke about something. Yeah, the guy that brought the Jack Harlow controversy to light. He started it with the tree. Exactly. You realize how this doesn't make sense because he pulled the bag of chips. Yes.

And just another question, just a quick one. What are like, just quickly, what are like the range of topics that you sort of would talk about. I'm talking about things that are happening in the world, geopolitical things, my mental health, like experiences that are happening in my life, a lot of what's going on in America, African history and events and things like that. Just a lot of the same things I would talk about in conversation with y'all, you know what I'm saying?

The question maybe originally was how do you deal with the fragmentation? of your words online. You know, I think part of it for me is definitely doing my best to not be too attached to response, which can be difficult, but to try to stay driven by message, you know, I mean, try to stay driven by purpose. I think about the time I was on your show,

like, it must have been 10 years ago. Yeah, on the daily show. You know, when I came back from Palestine, and I was on your show speaking about, my experience in Palestine and in the West Bank and how it reminded me of American racism and Jim Crow. And that was early in the common parlance

of discussions about Palestine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the American populace, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, at that time, I experienced a lot of blowback, not particularly for being on your show of what I said on there, but generally for speaking my mind, you know, I mean, about what I felt. Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

Shut up. Who are you? It's, yeah, it's the usual. You know, and the, like, the people in my team and in my circle that I didn't know felt very differently about that. And for sure, throughout the years, there's been so much fallout and consequence and loss of money and loss of opportunities for being out. like for saying the things that I believe,

but ultimately I have tried the opposite. You know what I mean? I've tried to like muzzle myself and be silent at times when I knew I had something to offer of value. And that was pretty soul crushing too. You know, that didn't like, that didn't lead me in the right direction either.

And I feel like maybe I've started to feel that leaning into purpose and like being, driven by my purpose, serves me, you know, that it's better for me. It's better for the world. And if people fragmented, if people misunderstand it, if people misuse it, that's going to be a part of it. I'm sure there's been so many times when things that you've said have been manipulated.

Yeah, I mean, look at what WhatsApp did to me with my friend. WhatsApp is the culprit. Just that alone. I mean, look at it. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. You know what one of the things I appreciate about what you're do though, specifically is, and I hope I can frame this correctly. I feel like some people create things online so that they can create more things online. And I, the reason it's hard

to articulate is because people go like, but isn't everyone trying to make things to make things? No, I think of it like this. Okay, politicians, especially in America, I find, spend all their time or a lot of their time campaigning so that they can be reelected so that they can be reelected so that they can campaign so that they can be reelected then i go wait wait wait what was the point of getting into power if you never use that power for the people who voted you in right and they go as soon as i'm in yeah and fundraising i got to get more money and and i got to get this and i go yeah yeah yeah but why well so that i can get reelected so that you can do something you forget the initial purpose of why you came in,

it would have been better for you to come in for a single term, do your damnedest to deliver, and just leave. It would have been better for you and it would have been better for your constituents. I think there's also something that's happening online where there used to be a world where people would create things and put them online

because they wanted to create things. But then now, people create so that people can view them so that they can create so that they can create, so that they can, you know what I mean? So that's when people be. They become parodies of themselves. They become caricatures of themselves.

They do things to like make you feel a certain way, right? Yeah. I don't say this to gas you up. Honestly, I never feel like you're trying to spark outrage. I never feel like you are trying to make something go viral. I never feel like you are, like I don't feel riled up by your comments, both for you or against you. And what I mean by that is I don't watch your videos and go,

yeah, get them, Vic. And I don't watch your videos and go like, I can't believe Vic said. I just listen to you and I find myself going, damn, what an interesting way to phrase that. That's an interesting lens that he applied on this topic or that's that viewpoint. Wow, I like the way he put that together with, but like is that, am I reading that correct? Yeah. I appreciate that immensely coming from you, man. I'm just like, I'm a consummate fan of your comedy and really your perspective because I feel like you're somebody that shows me that.

mediums are just that. They're avenues with which to express what is contained by a human being. Oh, damn, thank you. And that, like, comedy is a medium for sure. And then late night TV was its own medium. Yeah. You know, even this is its own medium. I was watching, like, your newest special on Netflix.

And I was just like, I was so glad to be watching you as a comedian. You know what I'm saying? Because like I'm just such a huge fan of you as a comedian. And that medium, you know what I'm saying? That way of looking at the world and dissecting it, fucking Martin Luther King realizing he fought for bland chicken. So good. And the purpose of it, you know what I'm saying? Like as I've been doing the things I've been doing right now online, it's really, you

in a way, been my way of dissecting how I see the world, but also like working on writing jokes and like making fun of it and having, you know, having genuine conversation, the way I would talk to a friend, you know, because the world is fucking on fire. It's crazy, but we black people, man, you know what I'm saying? We make everything fun. We ain't just like sitting around suffering about it.

No. I mean. I'm sure niggas even on the plantation. I guess that's what Joy in the Trenchers was about. That's literally what it was about. You made a plantation joke. Like the fucking overseer comes and you, you pick in the cotton while he there as soon as he leaves.

You're motherfucking dirty ass. Wet hair, wet dog smelling ass, white, motherfucker. Well, these are not my words. Let me just say. Vic has just added his own. I would have been thinking about it. He just paraphrased everything. He, you know, was looking at me like,

Who is my friend? Who are you? Wet ass, dirty dog, smelling ass. The nass, the nigger. Something. I've realized that once purpose is a selfish pursuit. It's just when people get to experience it from you, they think there's more to it than there actually is.

So for example, the example that you made about politicians. Oh, shit. Wait, hold on. Say that again. So purpose is a selfish pursuit. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when people see it and they enjoy it, they start thinking they make it that, they make the result of your purpose.

Like it was always for them. It was always for them. So when a politician is campaigning, just maybe they like being on the road. Just maybe they like the staff meetings and the late campaign and the photo shoots. But they were never about service delivery. They were never about making sure that you get the water. But we see it in South Africa. This is true.

There's politicians that are good at rallies and they good at the campaign. Yeah, they love the life. Yes, but they never thought they'll have to actually sit down and understand what the budgets are. How do you guys feel about Julius Malema? I mean, that's like how long. long as a piece of string. No, no, no, I'll tell you why. So the first thing I'll say is...

I see him from my American perspective, not knowing so much. Okay, I'd love to tell us how you see, how you see him and then we'll tell you... Yeah. Just don't say it, right? You just don't know what to do with that weapon. It's a brilliant weapon. Sorry, again, for context,

before you answer the Julius Malema question. for those who don't know, Julius Malema is one of the, like, people that people point to to say that he is promoting the white genocide. Yeah, Julius Malema, I would say, is like our most controversial, publicly and internationally known politician in South Africa. Yeah, he's, in fact, when Trump came after South Africa, Julius Malema was like the thing he held up as like, here's the example I'm using.

To kill the boar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Kill the boar. Yeah, the farmer, host, host. Like, so hot. What a good song. I mean, like, it was five. Yeah, I mean, that's how it felt to me.

As a black American, I was like, I resonate with this, this shit, the beat, you know what I mean? It does have a vibe. Yeah. Killer, literally. Julius Malema. Yeah, I look at him not knowing so much. Yeah. And I love him.

I mean, he seems like he's the one that is fighting back by any means necessary. That's the feeling, the sense that I get from him. When I was in South Africa, something that broke me was to realize that white people are maybe about 10% of the population in South Africa, maybe even less, and hold 90% of the wealth. Then I think about America where black people are about 10%, 13%. And once again, white people hold 90% of the wealth. and being there, being on the continent, you know what I mean, in this cradle of fucking civilization, and seeing that freedom was so partial, you know what I mean,

and that the ownership of the land and the wealth was squarely not in the hands of the Africans, was riveting. You know what I mean? The woman I was with at the time, she had to, like, check me at a point in time. She's like, you can't just get mad at every white person you see. Damn, that's funny.

And I'm like, but why the fuck you niggas own everything? You know? Yeah. And I'm livid, you know what I mean? And then I see Julius Malema and he's like, kill the boy, the farmer, you know. And I'm like, that's my nigger, you know, my niga. My niga. I'm my niga.

Yeah, okay, let's catch with it. Okay. So tell me how you guys see. All right. So, and Eugene, I mean, you'll interject anyway. this is this is how i see it i think julius malema in terms of his rhetoric has one of the most progressive rhetorics that i've ever come across and he and he he's inspired one of the more necessary conversations not just in south africa but on the continent and in the world as a whole and the argument because there's people who won't know it is if i distill it down it is fundamentally

this can you claim to give somebody their freedom if you do not give them the tools to actually exercise that freedom, right? And if I was to use an analogy here, oftentimes what I think he's speaking about in terms of restitution is he'll go, South Africa's racism, you don't have to go far back. You know, you don't have to go back like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It's our parents, literally. Like, not figuratively. It is literally our parents who were the last like, let's say adult victims of apartheids. And then we were born in apartheids. And then we experienced democracy and freedom.

And we grew up outside of it. Yes. And so we grew up outside of it. But when you look at that, there are many things that the state stole from black people and all other people of colored people, you name it. The state stole these things from them, took that and gave it. to the white population in South Africa.

And many of them, and this is something that I think is important to say, many of them unknowingly receiving it. Yeah. Which is a part of the conversation people don't really have often. Many white people in South Africa were obscured from the reality of the situation. Yeah. So they were going, we get good roads, we get free schools, we get unemployment. Seems like the government's doing a good job.

Opportunities. And then the government would just go, hey, just so you know, man, these black people are crazy out here. We're holding them back. and the only place they got their reality from was from the government. And so in the same way, it's funny, I remember when I went to the African-American History Museum, one of the things you see MLK talk about is in all of his writings, when he's trying to get journalists to come out and cover what's happening,

he's saying, in his writing, and I paraphrase this because I don't know if I'll say it accurate, but he says, because I truly believe when our white brothers and sisters see what is being done, see what is being done by the American government to black people, I believe that they will stand up with us. So I find it fascinating that even in America, MLK and then in South Africa, white people were being obscured from the truth. The truth was being obscured from them, right?

So they receive these things. The government steals from black people to make white people live a life that is as good and as easy as possible. democracy comes but there is no restitution there is no correcting of this

the analogy I always use with people as I go your house is robbed the police come they say hey we've solved the case you were robbed and we caught the person who robbed you and you go like all right so what do we do now

they're like no no we're not going to do anything now they're going to keep everything that they stole from your house but we can all agree that this was terrible and you're like wait wait that's it it's like no no no Let's start from here now. We do agree this was terrible. So let's move forward from here.

But we don't want to take it back from that person because, I mean, two wrongs don't make a right. This is why I love Julius Malema. Right. But the issue is, and this is the issue I have with many politicians, rhetoric versus action. Maybe I'm an outlier in saying this. Maybe I'm not. I think Julius Malema and many other politicians like him, not just in South Africa, but on the African continent, have fantastic rhetoric. But the actions that they participate in

do not necessarily do what they need to do to liberate the people that they're trying to liberate. I think mostly it's a timing thing. So there's a strange thing about South African history that if you tell it the way it is, you run the risk of being an apologist for the Afrikaner apartheid system. Oh, that's interesting.

Because it starts in three parts. So the first part was the British who oppressed the black people, the coerced and indigenous people of the country and the black people. Right. And then when the British, were like, okay, now you can have your own republic.

And they left, they left the whole system to the Afrikaner. Then the Afrikaner started. The Dutch at the time, yes. So they were like, okay, now we're going to run this thing our way. And then they took the system that the British had and gave it a name. So before it was just colonization. And then they called it apartheid. But now they were like, okay, now we're going to promote two races here.

Colored people will be the second. And then we'll be the first one, which is the Afrikaner. But even in the Afrikaners, not all Afrikanas benefited from apartheid. there was eliticism as well it went with surnames and which people were prestigious and who was educated because when it was first formed

there was a first group that was sent to Holland to go study architecture, literature and art to create the Bernif paintings that we see that were all in government buildings to create the architecture

of the parliament and the union buildings and the rich people gave up land which is now owned by the state Pretoria, Hartepiersport Dam were all owned by the elite

who were connected with Netherlands or with Dutchland. So Afrikaans people did not just benefit. So what we see as historical suburbs and schools that are Model C that we call Model C, which were the first to get integrated, was because they were not protected by privilege. Those were working class neighborhoods

where they put a stadium here and a school here. So the integration happened there first. So it was harder to penetrate the big-ass-mentioned suburbs that the elite people that owned the mines and the land and the farms were living in. it will never happen in our country. So the second part about what I find, which is a weird social experiment with Julius Malema and the EFF, is revolution can never happen in a democratic society and that kind of rhetoric of revolution. Remember that these guys grew up in the ANC of Peter Mugaba,

who was a firebrand, who was the next spoken up person after Nelson Mandela. And he just happened to be a young person when Nelson Mandela was released. And they grew up under him. So their rhetoric about what democracy, I mean, what revolution is, what freedom is, was mistimed. Because in the middle of democracy, you can't shout those words while you yourself are in a range rover in a Mercedes-Benz and living in old historic suburbs and your children are enjoying private schools. So his voice got lost in there. The second part about that group was he was not a lone wolf. There were two other guys who were involved in the building of the party that people liked as if it was a boy band. So there was the academic, which is Dr. Muisen-Losie.

and there was another person who loves finances, academic, which is Floyd Shivambu. And those people left the party and he was left alone to become a dictator. Julius Malema, yeah. Yes. But the funny part about that is there was an inquiry now in South Africa and there was a parliamentary panel of it, which he, everyone expected to be the chair of it. He refused to be the chair of it. And he recused himself from a lot of testimonies of corrupt policemen that involved him.

So he is losing the fight over and over. And right now, two weeks ago, he was found guilty of discharging a fact. firearm in a rally. And he was charged and he's going to face time. Julius Malamaw. Yeah, he was sent him to five years. Well, he said, the farmer. Yeah, there he go. That's my favorite part of the song. He's now serving time for him. Yeah. So if he, if he was convicted and charged for for helping a person who was being mistreated because of their race, I'd be like, okay. Yeah. But for breaking the firearms control act, discharging a machine gun. See, this is funny. This is funny. This

brings me to one of my other realizations about South Africa. So different. Yeah. I was learning about the hip hop artists and they were like, man, in South Africa being a hip pop artist and being a gangster is actually like a demerit to your career because it makes you seem less commercially viable. Because to hear about a well-known public figure going to jail for saying br-r-pah and discharging a firearm, this connects to things I like about artists.

This is so funny. That's the things that seem very familiar to me. Like, man, South Africa showed me so much, bro. I was like, first of all, I just think the entire idea of Afrikaners is hilarious. So you're just a white nigga to put an extra A in your name? Now you think you're an African? You're fucking Dutch. And French.

And French and go to fuck home to those two very distinct places. I look at fucking Elon Musk's loose skin, Sith Lord-ass father. who sits there and he says, America's becoming darker by the minute. Well, why would they want to do that? Do they want to go back to the jungle? It's like, nigga, you got a place you could go back to the Netherlands. That's right.

They'll welcome you with fucking open arms. What's funny is they don't. Oh, they really don't. No, that's the funny thing about the story that people forget. As many of the original Dutch settlers who came to South Africa were outcasts. The Netherlands was like, we don't want these people. The same way the original people who settled in Australia

with our costs. They were like, we don't want these people. They should go claim a new state and claim a... Yeah, but to Eugene's point, I think the key thing that we lose in a lot of these conversations

and that's funny enough, I think why many of your videos have resonated with people is when you peel back metaphorically and literally the layers, class is the one thing that emerges constantly and consistently. And it's not going anywhere, yeah.

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So to your point, race being a fiction, it's like, yeah, it is, it is, you know, it's a subjective reality. So race doesn't exist, but it also does. But racism is very real. Yeah. The aspects of race are very real.

Completely. And race is a subjective, amorphous. There you go. There you go. There's a, there's an English writer who said it beautifully one day. And she said, she said, I cannot wait for the United States to finish a, you know, it's race war so that it can realize that it was fighting about class all along the entire time. But race was the justification for the creation of the class.

But you've seen it in South Africa where there would be our uncles or our dads would be working in a factory with white people. Yeah. And there would be great friends because of the class that they find themselves in. There's a solidarity in that class. And then one day your uncle would go visit his white friend suburb and you'd be like, you're poor other than me. They'd be like, but we work at the same place

and we earned the same salary. It's about classism. And the class distinction in South Africa. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen how white people in South Africa will treat the white beggar? Oh, no, I haven't. Yeah, I didn't see the white beggar.

I would argue most of the time. I missed them. I was going to Soweto and I was stopping by my friend's family home. Yeah. And her uncle was massively wealthy. I had never seen this level of wealth except maybe in the homes of Jay-Z and Kanye

and I asked what he did, you know, and he made his fortune selling toilet paper to the prisons. Interestingly, the same private prison companies that own facilities in America, GEO Group, Core Civic, they own private prisons in South Africa. So they profit from the same confinement,

destruction of black bodies. And I saw him making his fortune supplying those prisons as a way of shucking and jiving, for sure. I go to Soweto. I'm going to get Shisangama. You know what I mean? I'm catching my vibe. And this man jumps out once again, like, to try to give me a parking spot, you know, help me for a tip. And he was singing his song.

He said, my name is Jack. I live in a shack. I might be black, but I got a six-pack. Did he? Yeah, that was his song. I remember vividly. Oh, he was so hungry he had a six-pack. Damn.

You know what I'm saying? And I was like, he's really shucking and jiving. And it was crazy, though, because I was like, damn, for a black man to make it, to put food in his body in this society, I'm seeing shucking and jiving on a street level. And even the richest nigger is shucking and jiving, though, like to achieve this momentous wealth. And that that shit kind of frustrated me, man. But I argue though, but I argue though those are two spikes

from a multi-pronged world because South Africa is I mean far from perfect. Don't get me wrong. But I will say only thanks to traveling I have come to appreciate

how many more paths are starting to appear for black people. Yeah. So there are black people who, let's not even call it a fortune because not every person has made a fortune. Black people who are just like doing it

a completely different way. Like, you know, I can think of like a woman who started out selling what we call Amaguina, but let's say like a version of like a fried donut type thing. On the street corner, selling it out of a bucket, and then you go back there today and you're like, oh wow, now she has like a store

and an enterprise and she's running this thing. And then on the other side, you have accountants and you have lawyers, you still have a guy on the street begging and doing this. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but what I have appreciated about it is, is that it's sort of, it's reminded me of the class story

as opposed to the race story. And what I mean by that is, even in South Africa. So you see what you said earlier in the conversation about Ghana, where they'll say, ah, white man, and they have a name for it. What do you say this? Obroni. Say again?

Obroni. Yeah, Obroni. In Nigerian, O'Ibo. O'Ibo. My T-shirt, Obronim. I've been fighting over Obronim my whole fucking life. And then with us, we have Ngambla. Yeah.

Oh, or Lechua. But it's said as like a, it's like, you have achieved, you have achieved so much that you are now in the echelon of the white man. Yeah. That is how well you've done. What I appreciate is like over time, not tomorrow, I think that slowly disappears. That slowly becomes, you know, and then we get away from it. and then hopefully we go, oh, okay, now we're just dealing with like a class thing.

Because without that, we don't go anywhere. Yeah, I also feel like, South Africa was just built on a lot of systemic corruption as well. Like a lot of stuff was given to people and businesses were given to people that didn't deserve it. And as soon as someone gets caught, the whole value chain doesn't get caught. So, for example, in South Africa, when apartheid ended, a lot of buildings were given to people

who were literally children who didn't know what they were doing they were just given these buildings these titles of these buildings so as they grew up as adults they end up inheriting these buildings owning them so when the state wants the building

they have to buy the building from them right so now you see it with people who have got a court like for example there's a system called the tendering system where we come and then we bid whoever has the lowest price can supply in America as well yeah they have it in the US

so the toilet paper story he's probably a tenderpreneur. He probably put on a bid and then someone tipped him and then he got the thing. But the thing is what happened with that money is the money buys houses,

buys cars, but the dealerships are not owned. Luxury dealerships are not owned by black people. Luxury estate agents are not black people. So the money still circulates amongst the same people again.

The story always ends with the people wanted to end with. Yes. You know what it reminds me of Miami? I always found it interesting that like every documentary

that would teach you about the drug trade in Miami. We'll talk about the money that drug dealers were spending. You know, these Colombian drug lords and these but they never talk about the fact that the money went somewhere. Yes. Corruption needs

a cycle. You can't be corrupt alone. You know when people will be like, Africa's so corrupt? Then I'm like, with who? You have seen that video of the so-called African politician who was like, corruption is not bad. It is only bad if I'm not a part of it. If I am a part of that corruption, I defend it. Yeah.

Yeah, but corruption with corruption cannot be alone So when people go Africa is corrupt I'm always like yes, but with who? You look at the stories There'll be corruption There'll be an arms deal That's corrupt

With a French company Like a massive We're not talking about like a mom and pop store To talk about like a French arms contractor It'll be with an American company It'll be with like a Then you're like oh okay There are outside forces

that are really powerful That know they can come into Africa do deals with certain people, but then leave the corruption story in Africa. But still be the puppet master. I mean, that's the whole long-term strategy is to be able to keep the system of corruption going

without having to be to face it. Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, even like one of the common conversations between Africans and black Americans is the idea that Africans, you guys sold your own, you sold us into slavery. And this is a common point of contention. When I was studying in this book called How Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney,

he illustrates so clearly the way that the Europeans stifled every mode of legitimate trade so that African states, nations, empires were left with only the option to deal in the most corrupt trade, to deal in slaves. So certain like Dahomei King sent emissaries to Portugal to request that the trade and slaves end and that they change to legitimate trade and goods. And Portugal was like, fuck, no. We're cutting off all land routes. You can't trade with your neighbors. We have superior naval capabilities. We're cutting off the sea.

You can't trade by sea. The only option we're going to leave you is that you trade in slaves. And the system of slavery that was, which is the system of corruption, that was brought to the continent, was so wide-reaching and it was so pervasive and all-encompassing that no single African state really had the agency to fully reject the system of slavery. So you end up in this place where, I mean, all your options have been exhausted. You know what I mean? And you're forced into slavery. But then it's so insidious because it leaves the idea even amongst yourself and your progeny and your descendants that you were the source of the corruption that led to your current state of destitution. But really, it's still the puppet master.

I mean, it's still the French national corporation that's trading arms with the rebel group that's fighting back against Burkina Faso's Ibrahim Troy. You know what I mean? It's still like a shadowy puppet master, for sure, there's funding all of the shit. But they want us to believe that Africa is so corrupt so that we think we're the source of our suffering. Yeah. You know what I mean?

That's one of the reasons I appreciate Donald Trump. Jesus, protest. No, for real. I feel you don't. Can I tell you? One of the reasons I appreciate him is that he has not, maybe, because I don't think he understands why it's necessary.

He's not participatory. He's not participated in the farce. That has kept people seeing the world a certain way. Explain? Okay. So let's look at Venezuela as an example. What did Trump originally say the whole Venezuela beef was about? He said the way this man treats his people.

You know, he's talking about Maduro. Nicholas Maduro doing these things to his people. How can he do this? Freedom, democracy. You know what I mean? The people of the country. they oust Maduro they get Maduro he's out

he's now in a prison in the United States what does Trump say afterwards people go like so regime change he's like no the people in there we're real happy they're gonna let American companies in and we're very happy and you go yeah but what about the people remember you said the people there were people

cheering by the way when helicopters were flying in and there was gunfire the night that Maduro was taken there were people in the streets of Venezuela cheering because they and they were saying they were saying Every time. They were cheering going, oh, my, it's happening. He's being ousted.

They were excited for the change and the fact that they were going to be freed from this dictator. And then Trump turns around and he's like, no, no, no, no, no. American companies can come in and do business again. And we're going to own the oil. Yes. And that's cool. We're going to be taking care of the oil. And we're happy.

And we have the oil. And then you go, okay, but what about the democracy side? And he's like, look, man, the point is American companies can come in and make the money. same thing with Iran you go why are you there what are you actually doing there and any time he has a hint of optimism

look at what the optimism is about you go is it about the nuclear enrichment that they might have he's like yeah the point is the straight will be open and we're going to be doing this together it's business baby we're back it's business

and you're like oh you that's why I say I don't know if he does it I think he does it unknowingly he doesn't understand how valuable the Foss was. For sure. Yeah. Does that make sense? Because he's not aligned with the same decorum of the political machine.

He recognizes that, you know, he can manipulate these markets and he can make a massive steel in this short period of time. It doesn't matter to him. Short period being the key. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't matter to him to continue the false venigial. And he's like, this is about the oil. Which is actually brilliant, low-key,

because it breaks down all of the bipartisan lies and smoking mirrors that they've been playing. Because they've been warmongering, you know, with Iran, like, soft launching, you know what I'm saying? These missiles for fucking, like, decades. But he was the first one. Democrats and Republicans. But he's the first to just put it on front street to say, no, actually, we want the oil. Yes. This is what this is about.

I mean, this is about. I, oh, sorry, yeah. Because he's, he won Venezuela. He won? Yeah. I mean, he won. No, no, I agree with what day. He won the, that was a, that was a, you cannot.

Easy victory. It was a victory. It was a first round knockout. Yeah, first round. It was that Mike Tyson fight where people hadn't even come into the arena yet. That's, that's where you feel. That's what happened there. It's just like old recipe colonialism, but in the modern age, he's trying to use the old

classic recipe. Yeah, but that was a, that was a, you could not win more in the, like, any age. Go in, the number of people who were killed is acceptable by American standards, right? Because it's almost like no Americans.

I don't even think there was one. And they've taken the leader out and they got someone who's amenable to what they want. So yes, a win. And you're like he's losing Venezuela. I mean, he's losing Iran.

Then Cuba for the series, because it's going to be tied. Won Venezuela. One Venezuela. He lost Iran. Then the Cuban series. So then sometimes I think that, that the world should help Cuba.

So when it comes to the final, you know what I mean? But no one will. Sorry? No one will. Yeah, because Cuba represents something that's so challenging and so dangerous to the supremacy of imperialism. And they represent the nigger they just couldn't kill. Like Cuba has defied American supremacy for so long and to be so close. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Cuba has sent thousands of doctors. to Africa and sent soldiers to Angola and sent fighters to a company like a millcar Cabral in Guinea. Like I met with OGs that had photographs of them with weapons in the jungle that had stood side by side with Kwame and Krumma, you know what I mean, and rocked with Patrice Lumumba and they're 90 miles from Florida, you know what I mean? And so the world can't come to Cuba's defense because Cuba has defied the idea that the American way is better for too long. You know what I mean? They stand for something so significant.

And it's interesting though because when I'm there, the official policy that was laid out by Lester Mallory in like 1960, an American diplomat was to bring about I'm paraphrasing, suffering, destruction, and starvation to the people of Cuba, to the point that they revolt against their own and overthrow the government. That was the official stated policy. And so much time has passed and so many people in Cuba have been born under these current conditions that many of them only blame their own government. Many of them don't even consider the American sanctions. as being part of the issue. Never mind the fact that fucking American sanctions, not just in Cuba, but around the world

over the past 50 years have killed like, I don't know, like 50 million people. It's some astronomical number of people that have died from American sanctions. But once again, that shadowy puppet master effect of being able to circumvent and add in suffering, starvation, and destruction through a third party

like type of manipulative. it leaves the people feeling like it's their fault. It's very similar to the way that Africans will feel, Africans often will be like, well, what about the corruption that, you know what I mean, that we are corrupt? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not exactly what you mean.

You know what I'm saying? And I felt that when I was in Cuba. And it's not that the government of Cuba or the government of Iran, that these are perfect entities, you know what I'm saying? But they're under the heel of imperialism. Like, how can one operate perfectly under the heel of imperialism? listen. That's probably the biggest paradox in all of this is there are no perfect messengers and then the story has been dictated by the victims, right? So I struggle with this all the time. I don't know

how you process it. I go, you would be lying as a person if you said that Cuba hasn't shown many of the benefits of not adhering to like a strict capitalist system, you know? People educated just because you're going to be educated. Some of the best teachers, some of the best doctors, etc., etc., etc. And it's important to state with almost nothing. Like if you think of resources that the country is almost nothing, right? But then you'd also be lying if you didn't talk about the oppression of those same people by that government. You'd be like, yeah, but what about the people and what you know what I mean?

What I've noticed is interesting is that the West does a particular, good job of framing its oppression and bad deeds of Cuba as no, no, no, of anyone as an outlier. Right. You know what I mean? So if you say to America or Americans, you go like, man, look at how many people in America starve or die because the system is designed to make them starve and die from sickness, except, people be like, yeah, well, that's when the system doesn't work well.

That's, that's not what it's supposed to do. And you're like, oh, okay. And then you go like, man, look how many schools you've bombed or how many kids you've killed around the world. If we put that number on any other nation or any other group, I think as the world we agree, we'd probably go after them, right? Like we wouldn't, that would just not be a thing. We'd have to liberate them and bring them democracy.

But then America goes, yes, we know, we know we bomb this school. That is an unfortunate side effect of what, But we were not trying to do it. And so we're actually the good guys. And it always breaks my mind because it does two things. On the one hand, I go, it's all unraveling right now in the world. I think we live in a time that is unlike many other times in that there is no one central narrative that anyone controls anymore. And while I'm happy about it, it also terrifies me.

Because I don't believe that anyone was like, let's say, telling the truth about their country or central power. but I also don't think the world can survive if everyone believes nothing and nobody's a good guy and like do you know what I mean if every government's bad and everyone is bad and everyone is not doing the right thing then what incentive do we have to be part of anything? Yeah, even I've spoken.

I think there's enough people who are supposed to have opinions and we have a platform that are having too much of a good time within the darkness of the system. So if Nelson Mandela, for example, was having a shitty time. He says, my people are also having a shitty time. We're all having a shitty time. Yeah.

So if the people with opinions are also like, I can also take a business flight to New York and I have an S class and, and, and, and those voices get stifled. So I think that's what's happening around the world right now is there's an outlier once in a while, someone who's doing well and has an opinion and can influence those with opinions to also have more opinions. But there are those who don't have a platform, who are not having a good time,

who can't say much and do much as well. So I think we have to give balance to that. There's enough information out there for people to make up their own minds. But I think when people are faced with the day-to-day struggles, it's very hard for them to turn on the news and feel sorry for people who are being bombed far away from where they are. What do you think changed? Because when I look back, especially at American musicians and actors even,

this is literally how I grew up. I grew up watching, you know, the stories about race and classical and all that oftentimes through the lens of like American artists. You know, and then they were obviously the ones before my time. And when I think of like the Nina Simone's and the Mohammed Ali's and when I watch those interviews, I go, damn. Because I mean, Dave, like we were on the daily show. But have you ever watched those interviews and be like, man, late night was no, like late night now is like, so tell me, tell me about the time you were, you wrote a horse and ate a banana.

That was a crazy time. And then you go back and watch late night from like decades ago. And it's like, so, Mr. Ali, you say that America is inherently racist. What do you mean by that? And you're like, damn, this is late night. Do you get on the saying? Yeah, because those influential people were also not having a good time. So when they got a chance to speak, they would actually raise up.

No, but they were, they were, I would argue they were having as good a time as you could be having now. Maybe I'm wrong. No. But now, like, you, you are an outlier. Whereas back then, I don't know that you would be an outlier per se. Yeah. I think Cointel approach has been very effective. You know, I mean, black people.

have had so many mass movements and elevations of consciousness and they're always followed by like cataclysmic events of biochemical warfare like crack cocaine hits the streets not long after the black panther party is in the footsteps of malcolm x like shifting mental uh the consciousness of the people But then you experience crack cocaine, you experience mass incarceration. You get to a point where kids of my generation in Chicago that are in working class, so many of them are like three generations of fatherless homes. I mean, everybody's been incarcerated.

Millions of men incarcerated. And so many parents addicted to drugs, like passing that down to their children, that becomes, once again, something that we often feel like, we feel ownership of the ways we've been poisoned. And then we put that into our art. We make that our focus. We make that our music.

We lose sight of anything other than the suffering and the struggle that we experience. And ascending out of it is kind of seen only from a material context. Do you mean? Because it's so, it's so, dire, the circumstances are so dire that it's like, cool, get the S class, get the first class flight, that's it.

Get out of the hood. Just get out the fucking hood. That's the only goal, you know what I'm saying? We lose the dream of there not being a hood in that way and we just want to get out of it. Just want to get out of it. And then you even see like ways in which the entertainment industry has, uh, controlled opposition and platformed focused corrosive messaging and uplifted those things very intentionally.

And it just becomes pervasive. I mean, like, that's the dominant thread of conversation. But it doesn't last. I think the pendulum swings. Yeah. You know what I think? I think we're coming back to a time when for show things are, even when I was on your show 10 years ago talking about, talking about, talking about palms.

Palestine. Like, that was a real fucking outlier. Yeah, it was. It's not now. No. And that's one issue that people often latch on to and, you know, call us single issue voters or whatever. But what happens in Palestine, the money that is funding this genocide in Gaza is very connected to our everyday lives because it affects the money that's not going into schools. It affects the money that's not going into health care. It affects the money that's not going into affordable housing.

Like it's all very connected and things have changed in a way in the past 10 years. Have the material realities changed? No. You know what I'm saying? But I do think that people's consciousness has to like shift before the ability to shift the material realities. You know what? It's also, yeah? A thing that I think people don't recognize a lot is that.

Don't say racism is good. Like you normally say in our group chats. Like I normally. Is that. Ama niga It just sounds like I'm a nigger I don't even hear it like that Is the

Is the fact that some of the things That people do Are like I don't know Maybe I won't say this clearly But we see people Then we go People are good

It feels like people are good You know in the world Yeah They're just generally good Then when something bad happens it almost seems so unfathomable that you're like, no, either life just sort of like panned out like that

or you are a conspiracy theorist. I remember talking to a friend about this when I first came to the US. Long before the Daily Show, long before, I was in Los Angeles and I was going around doing comedy clubs and nights and I would meet these comedians. I remember one night I was at what they call an urban night,

you know, so it's a black comedy night. now we're from, that's just the knights. You know what I mean? At night. Amaniga's everywhere. So it's all, it's all an urban night. With the Ghanaian butler going, go out there.

So we're like, and we had this conversation. And he said something that, man, it really stuck with me. He said, he said, he said, he was talking about like conspiracy theories and not believing and, you know, And then he said to me, he said, man, one of the things I wish, I just wish that African Americans didn't have as many conspiracy theories as they have. And there's a black man saying this, by the way.

And then I said to him, if anything, I feel like black people should be full conspiracy theorists only, especially in America. Because the amount of times the conspiracy theory has actually been true. Has been true for black people in America. I go, I don't understand why you are. I'm actually impressed that you're not fully a conspiracy theorist. Yeah, but even the term is to cover up what could be potentially the truth. Yeah, but I'm just saying... It's always true.

You know, it's like, oh, much always. You would love this. I actually met someone who worked at the CIA and I asked him the question. I said, yo, it wasn't me. It was a friend of mine asked it while whether. He said, how many conspiracy theories are true? And the guy laughed and he said, obviously I can't say anything to you, but he said, but I will tell you this.

Oftentimes at the agency, we would be grateful. This was a really interesting phrase, he said. We would be grateful at how crazy conspiracy theorists were because half the time they were correct, but half the time their conspiracies were so crazy that we never needed to like step in and balance. And it was this interesting concept to me where I went like,

whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, so half the things you think Are crazy. Whatever you are in, whoever you are in your world, half the things that you think are crazy are probably true. Yes. And then half the things that you think are true are probably crazy. The difficulties will just never know. Yes, I felt about the files, man.

It was like, I used to look at some of my friends and some of the online discourse. It would be like, really guys, a secret cabal of blood drinking Democrats, abusing children globally behind the scenes are you serious and you see the goddamn files and you're like oh deep

oh yeah okay deep this was real these blood drinking pedophiles like this you couldn't have told me that I was like I draw the line at that you know

and it's where you should draw the line like mince like if you think of somebody telling your story to believe that is come on it's crazy and more and more people are starting to not question reality

but I don't mean it in a bad way No but I like what you're saying because sorry to cut you up but Dave but that's what that's what like worries me actually I know I hope I articulate this correctly but I sometimes feel like it is oh man what's the word I would use

I sometimes feel like it is safer maybe or yeah, safe is the only word I could think of for a society to collectively believe in a lie that moves them in the same direction, same direction being the key phrase than for everyone to just have their own reality. And I hold, it's a paradox in my brain

and it's something I struggle with because I do not wish for any of us to quote unquote be living a lie or be living in a fake world. But then at the same time, time, if everyone believes their own thing and nobody believes anything, I genuinely believe that's when society just disappears as a constant. I mean, if you had a central religion as a central, like, ideas, if we take away religion being bad or good. Yeah.

But it just goes like, guys, let's believe that we should be nice to each other. Yeah. Then you go, okay, as opposed to I should be nice to some people or not nice to. I'm saying to your, let's be nice to each other. Otherwise, you'll go to hell. Yeah. You know, is like a lie. but um it is but but it could help it it actually is a lie because it's accept yeah it's accepting

jesus as your lord and savior that's that's the thing it's not about being nice to the people but i just don't want eugene to go i don't want you to go to hell for the wrong reasons you don't go into this you don't go nobly just hold on don't don't press anything we've got more what now after this What do you think people get the most wrong about you then? Like, because I mean that, yeah, I'll throw it out there. I could be wrong about this. But when I see like Vic Mancer, there's so many iterations of you that I've seen over time, as you would with any artists in the public eye.

Well, there's so many different iterations of you. I wonder what people get wrong about you that you see out there where you're like, no, that's not me or that's not how I am anymore or that's never been me. I think people used to think that I was very serious and always wanted to fight somebody. You did give off that vibe, actually. No, no, no, you did give off that fight. He said I did give off that. No, no, no, I believed that.

You thought that was very serious. 100%. I'm glad you said that, actually. Even when I came on your show? Yeah. Okay, okay. No, I knew you weren't going to fight me, but I was like, in this, in the hallway. Who was going to win?

I prayed to God. Nobody bumps this person. I pray to God. Who was going to win? If he fought me. Come on, look at this guy. Yeah, yeah. He's from Chicago.

You're from Philhanesburg. No, my friend. Me, Philly. No. No. Not you. You're not going to win. No fucking way.

I think that's probably the biggest thing people got wrong. You know one thing I will say about Johannesburg, maybe versus Chicago. I don't know if it's the same. You'll tell me. If we can go head to head, have our cities battle. One of the most important things Johannesburg taught me growing up with it was Hillbro, Alex, wherever, is knowing when and how to run. Yeah. Like fleeing was never seen as a, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, people would be like, maybe as a joke, but yo, like running was actually a high-level skill. If you knew when to run, you were just as good as no enemy to fight. So I don't know if it's the same in Chicago. Yeah, I mean, shit, I ran from the police. I feel like I'm a professional running from the police. No, no, not the police. And violence. Okay, okay, okay. I'm talking about, like, if someone stepped to you, could you run? One-on-one? Yeah. No. Two on one? Possible. Three-on-one? Yes. Okay. I'm out. Okay.

One-on-one, somebody steps to me with no weapon. How could I run? Okay. All right. No, I can. That would be a violation of my moral code. There you go. See me?

One of the... So if you're saying... You know, violation of my moral code. Dying. If you ain't have a weapon, you're not going to die. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I don't want to be a surprise ghost.

Okay, so you were... So you were... So you were not or you've never been like ultra-serious wanting to fight all the time. No, no, no. I've always been Gemini, though. So maybe you have to be... time. I could have been like that. Oh, it's been everything funny to me, all jokes, but also serious and one in a fight. Okay, no, but I like that's balanced. But people who believe in

Zodiac signs are very pragmatic because they look at you and they go, what star sign are you? Like, I'm a Scorpio, like, yeah, yeah, it makes sense now. And you're like, why? Then they tell you what your star sign is. Gemini is really like that. Gemini is like very polar, very polar. I mean, Kanye is a Gemini. Scorpio? Who, and then what about those ones? I don't know nothing about Scorpios. I know about me. How many Star-Signs do you know? Torres.

Me. Torus is my son. Yeah. The tourists are stubborn. Yes. I just learned about them when I learned about my son. Okay. You know.

Gemini is very polar. Okay. Okay. And cancers. I know cancer. Okay. No. It's a deadly disease.

I know a little bit about Aries. My girls in Aries. Oh, you know a lot. Erries are fire. Fiery. You know. You know what I do like about Star signs is it comes with a lot of grace

that's what I'm saying, pragmatic yeah. You hear someone, you're like, what's star sign? Yeah, but what I mean by it is like, star signs, they just, they come with a lot of grace so someone will say, man, this person's stubborn.

That explains it. I think that is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. They allow people to be themselves and to contain all of themselves. And they almost make you feel like the mistakes

that, the flaws that people have, but they're all doing it. Yeah, you blame it on their nature. Yeah, like, Besides the stars and then you're putting a Tuesday and the golden night. That is like how being a Gemini is definitely a mental, it's a mental illness at times. You know what I'm saying? Because you're so polar, you feel one thing with complete passion.

And the next day you think something entirely different. You know what I mean? One day I could be upset and want to fight people all the time. And the next minute, everything's a joke to me. But I think like my process of coming into a living. experience is to learn not to be a slave to my nature. My nature as a gemini is very dual. It's a duality.

My nature is that way. But to have integrity is to intentionally choose to make decisions that I can rationalize from any side of my personality. And before I wasn't like that at all. Like I was a slave to my nature, you know what I'm saying? And like my gem and I would be like, I have to say exactly what I think to this person. At the time that I think it, I have to tell him, I'm going to slap him in his mouth.

And he violated, so I am justified. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is the right thing to do, you know? Yeah. It should be done. It should, not only it should be done. It will be done. It has been done.

You know what? And like, you know, just growing, just growing is to come to realize that like, although my natural proclivity, my inclination as a Gemini, is to be this way that I'm not beholden to that. Like, I can have the discipline to not act out my fucking intrusive thoughts at all times as a Gemini, you know? Those are the best ones, but they also get you in a lot of goddamn trouble. They can get you in years of trouble.

What are intrusive thoughts? Mine. No, I'm just saying, what are they? Thank you. Mine is to flip this fucking desk right now. Wait, these are the thoughts you guys are having? Just when he said intrusive cough, just in that moment, I was like... Damn.

Don't you have intrusive thoughts? Like when you're driving, you're like, if I go like this, what would happen? Like an airport. Can I tell you? You just want to punch him in the phone. You see, it's funny. That idea, the first time that came into my head was because you said that. You said this to me more than like 15 years ago.

You never think of it. I had never before you thought of possibly veering my vehicle into opposing traffic. Just to see what happens. Yes, but I'm saying... He is your intrusive thought. Actually, that's exactly what it is. This could be like Fight Club and you're not even real. You never think of crazy.

You know, I just realized that right now. If I did this thing, what would happen? I just realized right now, you might not be real. But it's really the Philly version of him. But the African ass. He's like, young bull, crash your shit, young bull. A lot of whack bar. Crash that fucking car.

A lot of whack by young bull. Oh, man. You know, as we, when we started this conversation, I was wondering why. I started gravitating towards your videos and I understood what it was a little bit now after speaking to you. It's you almost cut across

from our generation of thinking because him and I go into these rabbit holes a lot but obviously we say what we want to say in our way. Yeah. We don't say it the way that you say it. But there's two things that you taught me, the one thing that you taught me a long time ago and there's something that my daughter taught me the other day is was giving people grace,

one and understanding when to use your privilege. Because I've always struggled with that. And then I remember when we started doing television, because I started doing television way later than he did. And we did a show together. And there was this one director that was just a douchebag. And I just got angry and angry and angry. Because in my head, I saw what he was doing as a director as a racist move.

And I was ready to quit the show. And I remember you called me to the side. And then you said to me, yo, you must understand one thing. they already don't want us yet. And I was like, they are the white people. You're like, no, them as a crew, they already think there's someone better who can do this job.

It's not about race. If you walk away, you're proving him right. But if you stick around, you're only going to get better. Then I was like, so it's not about race. He was like, maybe it might be on the side. Yeah, I always said you never know. Yeah, on the side, the tinge of racism. Oh, it's always about right.

Yeah, but basically the guy's sitting there going, I know someone who, could have done this thing better. Yeah, should have even. Should have done it better. And that never left my mind because I was always ready to act on my intrusive thoughts. If someone steps in front of me, they're gone. And then you gave me that.

And I was like, ah, it's using the privilege of knowing that you can do better and you can defeat them by just doing better. And there's another thing that my daughter and I were discussing the other day, it had to do with a place that we booked. And then when we booked the place, they said something can't be done. until when after booking the place I showed up and they said you can do anything and then I said don't you feel bad for the fact that now you can do anything after they said you can't do anything and she said dad I would feel bad if we turned it down from her offer

then I was like why she was like no it's not just everyone who can do what they like and if I can do what I like because of how you do what you like and still get paid from it then I would be remiss if I didn't take advantage of the fact that we can do what we like. You know the point and thing about what you're saying, Eugene, there? Yes. Is that Trev, he told you how to, like, improve the world. Because you were like, look at this circumstance. There's a better way to handle this.

Or just a different way. A different, yes. A more effective way, you would say. And then you, because, like, Trevor's driving. I mean, you're like, you know what? What if you just went into the oncoming fabric? This is how we were exchanging ideas. It's like...

Yeah, and with your world, you are able to use everything that you've learned throughout lives, throughout your art, throughout your career to carry out these videos. You understand the privilege that you have. It is the culmination of Vic Men's. 100%. That's what I would call it. Like 10 years ago, this Vic wouldn't exist. But with the travel that you've had,

The work that you've done, the people that you've met, it makes whatever you have to say very ponient because you've lived it. And if I may add to that, I don't think you should ever take for granted how descronifying the message, like how important that is. What is desgronifying? So oftentimes the things you're talking about are delivered by scrony people that nobody wants to listen to. In dashikis?

No, no, you wish it's dashikis. I'm talking about like when he's talking about like anything, Iran, the petronyenne, Metro dollar, like race, you know what I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the carceral state, you, you name it. A lot of the time, the people who are talking about some of these topics. Geeks, scroony, geeks that nobody wishes to like, you're like, no offense, but like the messenger, you know, that's one of the reasons that Nelson Mandela was chosen, right? Mm-hmm. It's because the ANC, he wasn't the most, like, senior member in the ANC. He wasn't, like, the guy.

He wasn't even the most outspoken one. Yeah. And then someone saw him. him speaking. Walter. Yeah, it was Walter, Walter Sisulu. And it was like, this guy,

the thing that he's doing and the way he's doing it is the perfect vehicle for our message. Because people realize, I mean, it's the same reason Rosa Parks wasn't the first person who had an issue on the bus. But she was the first person where civil rights leaders who were running that movement at that time were like, she's the perfect person for us to take this forward.

I don't think you should ever take for granted that everything about you just like, one, it doesn't really exist. There's no one else like you in, if we overlap everything, you know whether it's punk, hip hop, the tattoos, the Chicago,

the Ghanaian, like, you name it, you name it. There's no one like you doing that. So when that vessel presents that video, that message and that story, someone can't be like, yeah, but of course you would say this, You're coming from Connecticut. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course, it's easy for you to say, you know, because you're stuck. I feel like that. I like what you said about privilege too, man. I mean, I think about privilege a lot, man, and that like one has to be like cognizant and conscious of your privileges in order to even have an effective message. You know what I'm saying? In order to have an authentic message because we all have different privileges. You know what I'm saying?

we might be oppressed in ways, be it for our race. I mean, we're all black men on this show right now, but we're also all men. So we also have a tremendous amount of privilege by being men. I mean, by being able-bodied men, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's so many things that go into it. I think about that a lot, especially having a white mother and having certain comforts in life that have come. along with that and with my father's occupation, him having a privilege to be the only one in his

family to come to America. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like the rest of my family in Ghana, they live in pretty abject poverty, you know what I mean? By an American standard for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's far from the bottom of the barrel in their community, but like by our standard, like not having working restrooms and roofs caving in.

And then, you know what I mean, like working jobs for 50, 60, 70 dollars a month. Like, that's an unfathomable fucking reality, you know what I'm saying? But my dad came to America. He had the privilege to get an education here. And so I'm living as both the fucking results of a lot of privilege in the midst of a lot of oppression at the same time. You know what I'm saying? And I think a lot of time, no, I can see even members of my own family, just people close to me that might have trouble acknowledging their privileges because of the amount of trauma, pain, and oppression that they feel, which is valid. But it's like, yo, without acknowledging our privileges, then the conversation is only half, it's only half real, you know?

It's incomplete. You know what I'm saying? without acknowledging our privileges, which is why I do like in this conversation, you're doing a lot for me by bringing a renewed lens to class because I do think that I get caught up in the hamster wheel of a fixation on race. Even when you were talking and you were like something about race,

and I was like, everything's about race. You know what I'm saying? Because in a way, like in America. But I argue it is. It also is. We had an episode just to interject. We had an episode with Sam Meryl, the comedian, right? It was on this podcast.

We made a joke about something. And I think it was like jingle bells maybe or something. Just a joke randomly. And then we talked about one thing. And then I said to Sam, I was like, oh, that actually has racist roots, like fully, fully. And then we laughed and we talked about it. And then he said something else. And I think we said jingle bells or whatever was.

And then I said, oh, that's also racist. And he's like, no, I'm joking. I don't know. And then he said, he said, he's like, knowing America, it probably is. We checked it up after the show. It was fully racist. It was. No, so you are right.

It's sort of, even to what Dave was saying, about conspiracies and all of that, both things are true at the same time. It is always about race, but it might not be. And just that the class conversation is actually the bigger conversation. It's always about class. It's like, where do you put the period on the sentence? It's always about class.

It's important. I like that. I feel like when you put the period on the sentence, only after race, then oftentimes you're left without a full sentence and you're left without like a clear goal. You know what I'm saying? Because if you just fixate on the racial dimensions of things

without realizing how they're a front for the actual class struggle that exists, this is a lifetime pursuit. You'll just be frustrated about racism for the rest of your motherfucking life. Yeah. You basically chase, because what you're doing now is you're chasing the shadow,

as opposed to the thing that's costing the shadow. And a shadow is real, but it is not the thing that is causing itself. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so that's the difficulty with this. It's like we want to be in a world. When I look at just like all the great minds,

it's often being buried when people talk about their work, but MLK spent like a huge amount of his time speaking about class. People now will make, oh, equality for all racially. And that's more convenient because that has sort of been addressed, sort of. You know, so people can be like, well, MLK's dream has been achieved. And it's like, no, no, no. But if you go look at what he talked about classwise, you're like, damn, no, no, don't, this guy's rattling the cage.

And I think that's why there are politicians today that are experiencing the success that they are. I actually think the death of the old school politician is that they still think race is the number one cudgel and it isn't. Trump didn't win because of race people will say that he did and there's definitely parts of his message that are intertwined in and around race but I argue the man won because of class he appealed to class in a way that few people fully understand

and that's why him and Mamdani could be in the same room and that's why people could say I voted for Mamdani but I also voted for Trump and people like why how? Yeah because both of them spoke to class so the person who's listening goes no no no I heard what Trump said he said that I've been left behind. I have been left behind.

Even that phrase truth to power because people always think you can only speak truth to power as it comes from a person who's under and then speaking to someone who's above. But someone who's above can speak to someone who's under and speak their truth to that power because that person also has power as well. Yeah.

Martin Luther King really became an immense danger when he started talking about a poor people's movement. Oh yeah, that was... For sure, that's when they assassinate you. I mean, Chairman Fred Hampton, He became that immense danger when he made the Rainbow Coalition combining the poor white people. Poor white group of the young patriots with the Puerto Rican young lords with the Black Panther Party. When you shift to a focus on class that doesn't ignore race, which is where I think a lot of the liberals lose me, is that they want to look at class as if race is not an interconnected intrinsically important dimension of it.

When you see people shift to a focus on class, it's when they become a real fucking threat to the power structure. And Martin Luther King was, I mean, he was living dangerously. Like he gets sanitized as being turned the other cheek like just a pacifist. But he really wasn't a pacifist. He just had a very brilliant mode of combat in my mind was that he understood that by, using nonviolent techniques that he could heighten the contradictions.

Yes. With the cameras on. And he made sure the cameras is on so that you saw them getting beaten down and hosed and bricked and hit with bats. And you saw them not responding with violence so that you had absolutely no question about who was the perpetrator. Yeah. You couldn't edit it and get a snapshot.

Yeah. It was crystal clear who was in the wrong. And Martin Luther King made sure of that. And I think a lot of my life I felt like, oh, I must choose between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and I'm more Malcolm X because I'm going to punch the white fucking back in the face, you know. But like, really, though,

to Martin Luther King's, his methodology, it took so much strength. Like it arguably takes more fucking strength to exercise restraint in the face of violence than to respond with us. not that that's the only strategy. You know, I think those things have to exist concurrently. But yeah, learning more about Martin Luther, that's why I love that you use him in your newest,

use some of those stories and your newest special because his legacy has been manipulated and flattened, like you said, into like some fucking Disney Channel shit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But really he was super revolutionary. What's interesting as well is how much they moved towards each other. You know, Malcolm X is always framed as this like burn it all down person. MLK is always framed as like kumbaya, let's all hug all the time.

And if you look at their writings and what they what they shared towards the end of their lives, they sort of gravitated towards the other. Malcolm X was going, hey, maybe we should speak more and maybe we should be a little softer. And MLK was like, no, maybe we should, you know, protest. Maybe we should riot a little bit more. Maybe we should. It is interesting how we find that middle. it makes me wonder with you, like, let's talk, you know, you've got old Vic Mancer, where, or rather

alternate universe Vic Manza. No, let's talk about the Vic Manza that people couldn't have, like, known because social media wasn't what it was, right? Who is this guy? Oh, hip-hop artist, but he's also, he wants to fight all the time, he's angry, whatever. Now we see you, like, in your videos, you're laughing, you're peeling that orange. By the way, how do you peel them so efficient? Like, what type of orange is that I want to know?

AI. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean this, I mean this, can I see your hands? Can I just see your hands? These hands have peeled infinite oranges. No, no, no. Like, I genuinely want to know, like, how do you start the peeling? Because usually I bite the, do you, do you peel orange?

Yeah, no, I bite the top person and I think, let me tell you something. Then I go in. Because my thumbs, I don't trust my, you know, you make it seem like it's the easiest thing. And my man, have you ever tried to start an orange. Yes, you have. But I'm like, you, I've never seen. in a video where you go in and you're like, yo, let's talk about a subjugation of people.

You just end up with two halves. Yeah. So how do you, first, how do you penetrate? I control, whoa. Whoa. You're definitely not from, if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see my hands. Ake. Take it easy, ac.

I got, I got it. No, but for real, how do you? I can try to edit. Those are the two questions. Okay. Secondly, how many oranges are on this tree? Infinite. It blooms year round.

These are the biggest things that have plagued me about this series. And I'm the cycle for biting. No, I don't think you're crazy at all. Sometimes an orange needs to be bitten. Yeah, then just to open up the... No, no, he's right. The gateway. He's right.

I want to see your... No way it is. Sorry, just a thing is, you know, when you have a... it used to happen with beer drinkers a lot but when they have a bottle of beer and then they can't open it Then they go with their teeth Yes it's like what do you

Because some people are like no I have to find a bottle opener Yeah you know that So if you can roll the motherfucker first And it gets softer Somebody told me that Because they saw me struggling to open them And they was like

Yo you need to roll it Oh okay so someone had Okay but the structural intent No no no no no This is true It does become it does Yeah but what I This is all I was searching for

I wanted to know if we've met you as a masterful orange peel, like, peeler. Yeah. Or if you have developed into this man. Now you've answered my question. Yeah, once I had the tree, then I start to learn more about oranges. Okay. What did you learn about oranges, actually? Well, just how to peel them.

Like, how to roll it. I don't know the science of this tree. I don't know why this tree blooms year round. I genuinely, I'm so fascinated. But it does, though. It blooms in all seasons. I have no clue why. I wish I had a more witty answer.

What made you do it the first time? I was talking about South Africa, low-key. It was like right around the time I was talking about South Africa near when the South African the white genocide. Oh yes, yes, yes. Was taking place and I had a friend come over to like film something with me in my studio. And I just had that idea. It was no like serendipitous moment.

But it was right around the time when I was talking about, I was talking about, I was talking about the white genocide. Didn't it have that feel of like, or at least me, if you'd ask me how you got to it, I'd have been like, whatever was in that backyard was going down. So if you had like chickens there,

he was going to, I kill a chicken while I told. If I had chickens and I was just like, you know, I am a voodoo man. My grandfather was voodoo ceremony. So it would have been a different vibe. I didn't have been a different vibe. I don't have been real, Estalia Banks.

I pulled a goddamn chicken. I say, you know what about racism? It's like a chick as nip. You got to rip it. I mean, all of these things are, you're lucky the tree blooms all year round. Now you'd be like, Vic, we need a video. It's out of season, man. You've got to wait for the next.

Just everything that came together. Where do we find you now in the journey? Where are you going next? What are you up to? Because now, again, to go back to how people perceive someone, I think there are a lot of people who like see you as that guy now. And I've just learned to accept this. You know, we've spoken about this.

It's like people meet you where they meet you. Right. Yeah, yeah. And they'll just like know you as they know you. Yeah. So you'll be the orange guy who says the news. And then my favorite thing will be like how people describe it when they see you. They'll be like, oh, man, the orange news guy.

Oh, he's the, he's the, you know, I've heard everything for myself. My favorite one was they said he's that, he's that, what do they say? He's that British news nigger from South Africa. Whoever he may be. But when they said that, I was like, that's the greatest description. They said the British news nigger. Yeah, they said the British news nigger from South Africa. Then I went, you said British, but you said South Africa.

So I... I love that. I'll take it. So, I see it the same way, man. You know what I'm saying? Like having done and continuing to do many things, I find that people might find me in an album cycle. And they'd be like, you know, this music, I love this. people might find me while I'm acting on a TV show.

Yeah. And be like, oh, I like that TV show. You know, people might find me while I'm doing this and be like, man, what's up with them oranges? Do they really grow all the dream? That was me. He just impersonated me. God damn.

No, that was the fucking, that was the flight attendant on the way here. Was asking about the, yeah. He was like, are they, he's like, are you going to run out? I'm not the only one. The flight attendant. That was Trevor's water. You said what? That was Trevor's worry.

It was my biggest worry. In fact, it doesn't want to buy oranges in case you. It does not seem like a sustainable. I was just like, man, I was worried about you. Because you're from South Africa, that's why. Because in South Africa we only get oranges in winter. Yeah, I was just like, it's an orange tree. It can't just have oranges all year round.

You have been gifted, my friend. You've been blessed. I'm working on developing it into a show. I'm working on like also like some scripted TV stuff. Right. And finishing my album right now. So a lot of different things. Is your album an opportunity to depart from what you're speaking about or does the album give you an opportunity to incorporate what you're speaking about?

How do you think about that as an artist? It's a bit of a departure. I mean, it's an album that I already had. Yeah. I mean, like I was making this album and had so much of it before I started doing the Orange Street thing. I honestly started doing that because I didn't have the funding to put the album out the way I wanted to put it out. Oh, damn. I didn't have the distribution.

I didn't have a label. And so I was like, what can I do in the meantime, in between time? Right. You know, to connect to people, you know what I mean, to express myself. And I landed there. But in a lot of ways, it's like, it's about family. It's about me coming into fatherhood. There's a lot of African sounds manifested in my own way.

So it's not like an overtly political album. It's got moments like that, but that's not the heart of it. You know, it's called Mansa Musa, Mesa. So it's about my son. It's beautiful, man. Like at its root, you know what I'm saying? But I also, I did this short film that's like marrying the orange tree shit to the narrative scripted thing I was talking about. And so that's coming out soon.

We get off here. I want to show you guys because I make some. Yeah, that'll be amazing. I talk about some things that I think will relate to you. Nice. Yeah, man, this has been everything and more. Yeah, I appreciate you guys. No, man, I genuinely, can I tell you, I, let's say if I, if I separate like the human use side of it and the, you know, the things you're doing, he'll tell you, this is like how I am in the world about the internet in particular.

I just, I spend an inordinate amount of time worrying that the internet, social media slash whatever we want to call it gave birth to something that was beautiful in that it, it democratized. a platform. It democratized, you know, opinions. It really diffused the power that was once contained by a few. But I think if we're not careful, it can also incentivize everyone to become a few. You know, so everyone's cooking channels look the same. Everyone farms outrage the same. Everyone tries to find craziness the same.

Everyone. And genuinely, what I love about what you do is you haven't reduced yourself to a caricature. you just you don't seem to be trying to pour fuel on any fire like one of my favorite moments was when you went back in to speak about Iran and how people had like misinterpreted and you're like no no guys let me try and articulate this for you even more clearly and I was like that there is the antithesis of what like the internet is experiencing right now you didn't double down you cut back and you elaborated and I was like this is the most beautiful thing because it it opens up space and conversation so So I just want to say to you as a human being living through this, I go like, man, thank you. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate that a lot. Yeah, the Iran, I mean, yeah, the Iran situation too was like I felt like I learned more information talking to people that I respected once I had already spoken. And I tried to make a decision that I think is important for me just as a human being to be like, I'm willing to adjust my perspective.

See, this is what I'm talking about. As new information comes in, that gives me more context and I have more understanding. You know what I mean? Like, I have to be. I think so often it's easy to be rigid and be like, well, I already said what I said. And so it is what it is, you know. But that wouldn't be honest. You know what I mean?

I think at the end of the day, I'm trying to be real, honest, authentic. And when I learn new information, I want to be able to adjust. Yeah, but even those we hold in the highest esteem I don't think I don't think do that in the most honorable way so I look at newspapers

the amount of times they print a retraction in the tiniest corner of the newspaper I go I'm not saying put it on the front page but put it where the original story was at least just instill in people the idea

that you can make a mistake publicly and go like oh yeah did I actually didn't know at the time and I didn't think it because it's not always malicious. That's the main thing is it's not always malicious. And what I found interesting was you didn't put it in the comments. You didn't put it below.

I watched a video the other day of it was like a super viral video where someone was talking about Justin Bieber performing at Coachella. And they were saying, do you know the real reason Justin Bieber played all of his music off of a laptop is because he sold his rights?

So he sold all of his publishing and his rights and he can't perform them So this was a genius movie. He plays the YouTube video. And then Justin Bieber is able to have his songs, but he can't perform. He's legally not allowed to perform. And then it was like, no, that's not the thing. Coachella pays a license for anyone can sing any song.

That thing's covered. He was doing something artistic. And then when people corrected this viral video, they then in the comments just put little, they left the video up. No way. I should have included the fact that this doesn't actually apply to Justin because you can't perform what you want. But still, it's an interesting thing to think about, isn't it?

I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Like, you are so obsessed with the view count that you're willing to throw everything else. And what I found impressive was you made a video as prominent. You got an orange. You came out, you did the...

It's not like you were like, all right, I, I, me clarifying this doesn't deserve this. It wasn't like now Vic Menzers in his bedroom, like, hey, guys, so I put out this video a while ago and I just want to say I'm sorry. No. Exactly. Same orange, same tree.

same vibe. And he came out and he's like, yo, let me say this. Let me elaborate. Let me tell you what I've learned. Let me. That to me, I genuinely mean I went like, ah, it inspired me.

I appreciate it. And I was like, that's what we all need more of in this amorphous place called the internet. You know what? Seeing people change and evolve. Appreciate that. In front of us. That's incredible, man.

And you shouldn't leave yourself out of it because a lot of people confronted by it. Don't do this to me. Don't change your eyes when you talk to me like that. I see what you're doing. Change your eyes.

What if I retract my other live? Now carry on. Okay. Yeah. So a lot of people when confronted by their friend about calling them and the phone ringing a certain way at a certain time. His eyes gave him away. A lot of people would say, you know, that's how network works.

And that's how, because Wi-Fi, we're in the same place. A lot of people will never actually take the phone and dial their friend and put on speaker and hear how many rings they are and have the same said friend. on the side, acknowledging... Can I tell you? This is a blatant lie that you... Can I tell you? You know what we're going to do?

Immediately. Immediately. Immediately. I will say sometimes, sometimes I do that though. Sometimes I try to call the motherfucker at a time. And I'm like, man, I just call this nigga with two ways. Yes. That's why I was saying...

We're going to... Wait, wait, wait, no. Hang up. Hang up. Hang up. My phone's on silent. No, no, no. Hang up.

No, hang up. Whoa, I want to set. Yo, can you hear me? No. Yo, so we're having a discussion here, and I'm not going to lead you in any direction. We're having a discussion about that the amount of rings people hear or see on WhatsApp versus how many the caller initiates. What is the discussion we've been having about this?

I'm here with, like, Kibuka and Eugene. The amount of rings that people see versus, oh, is this when I think you've called me and then you've given up. right away, but you might have gone 10 deep. Is that what you're saying? Yes, yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Because now Kibuka does not believe.

No, I didn't say I don't believe. Wait, you said Blakely. I don't believe. Kibuka doesn't believe that I called him and waited like a shit long amount of time. He says he got like two rings on his side. Yeah, I don't believe. Yeah, I don't believe that too. It can't be trusted.

But also, are you in the calling ones in, are you counting them in the calling phase or in the ringing phase? No, no, no, no. I was counting in the ringing phase. Okay. Yeah, because he understands that differentiation as well. Yeah, but, Dave, Dave has no interest in this whatsoever. Okay, but no. Dave is just here blatantly saying, I'm a liar who did not want to call him.

Lars, you know what made the matter worse, nah? Yes, say the thing. Was then my attorney over here. After the ringing and they're hanging up, Dave called back immediately. Immediately. And the suspect did not answer the phone. Because I was on a bike riding back from Pickle. So quickly.

That's funny. Who speaks on their phone while riding a bike? There's only one person on this call and I'm not that person. I would be suspicious about Trevor and anything phone related. There we go, Duncan. I'm hanging up now with this. This has been great, man. Hey, appreciate you guys, man.

That's up, man. Appreciate so, bro. You know how we do? Man, this is the worst thing you could have left us with. I'm a nigger. Filly, you cheat. Am I mean. Okay, am am amigas.

Oh, man, this was dope. It's crazy. Oh, man, this was so good. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Senaziamen, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer.

Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?