What Now? with Trevor Noah - Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek [VIDEO]

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

Trevor, Christiana, and author/inspirational speaker Simon Sinek delve into the paradox of why the smartest and most competent people at a company are often not its leaders. They also dissect whether office gossip is essential oral history or the literal tool of destruction of a company, and how (and why) Milton Friedman ruined value based capitalism. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, so here's the difference between us if you brought Simon Sinek into your company Yeah, and you said Simon what is going wrong with this company and what then Simon Sinek would try and help you To make the company better, right if you brought Trevor Noah into your company and said, you know, what are we what's happening? There's a chance that I would say you need to shut this Just shut it all down. You should fire yourself and you people should ask yourself why you work here and everyone should go home That might be my solution. I mean, that's a contribution. Yes, but what I mean is like, I feel like people...

You bring order, Trevor brings chaos. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. Thank you. So where are you based? Here. Oh, you're based in the United States? Yeah, yeah. Nice. I'm a New Yorker, but I'm here now.

What brought you here? I'm trying to get Trevor to move here, but he refuses to. Well, I mean, he's smart. No, don't say that. No, I... Make him come. I, my sister and my sister and her family moved here in the middle of 2019. My sister and I are very close and we work together. And so to help her ease into living in LA,

I got a place here and started doing the bi-coastal thing. But COVID was kind of a magical gift. My niece and nephew were kids that I used to see a couple times a month when I drive up to the suburbs and spend a few hours at their house. And then when we went into lockdown, we were having family dinner every single night. So you're a real uncle dad. Yeah, yeah. I got very, very close with those kids and I love living in LA for them. And when they're not here, I'm very bored. You do a lot of work in and around helping people connect, but oftentimes people will think of you as the guy who helps people connect in like an official setting, you know, like a company and an institution and whatever. But is there anything you can help people,

like literally what Christiana said, how do siblings become closer or how do they stay friends or how do they even make a friend? Because people assume you'll be friends with your siblings, but a lot of siblings hate each other. Also, he's like an uncle dad, he's helping raise this. For sure, I'm the third parent. Which is like, I would love that. Do you know what I mean? And I'm actually, it's funny you say that, people are very surprised by how close my sister and I are. They say, what's it like working with your sister?

Is that okay? As if it's some sort of disaster. And for them, I think they feel it would be. And I don't wanna work with anybody else but my sister. And she and I talk a thousand times a day and we bounce between work and personal stuff. And to answer your question, I don't know if there's a formula.

I think one of the things that made us close as we grew up living all over the world, we. Ah, so you were your only contact. So we were the only. No, okay. That actually makes a lot of sense. We were the only common friends. The other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That actually makes a lot of sense. So I need to move my kids around. You do actually. You need to make them their only connection to each other. We want to do a London stint. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then we haven't chosen the place after that. You do actually, you need to make them their only connection to each other. We want to do a London stint definitely. Yeah.

But then we haven't chosen the place after that. Do your kids already have the American accent? Obi sounds like Peppa Pig when he's speaking to me. Oh, that's fun. And he sounds like California when he's speaking to everyone else. So he's on the class. No, I'm playing English. My daughter does not speak English.

How old are your kids? My son is four, my daughter is 18 months. And I'm like, Luna, Trump's America. You need to learn something. So there's a, if you care about this stuff. Yeah, I do. Of course. So I'm bilingual.

Okay. I speak English and American. Okay. Which are very different languages, by the way. 100%. So you know, like kids who have French parents, you know, they'll like just start speaking French to their parents. They just go between English French, English French. Well, I do that. Like when I talk to my parents or when I talk to my friends in England, I

have an English accent. I use English vocabulary. When I talk to my American friends, I speak American. So, I bounce between the two. My sister is 100% American, can't even fake an English accent. That's so interesting. There's a feral, they found these feral kids in India and they found that there's a critical age for language. If they brought their kids back into society between the ages of eight to ten, they could learn syntax and language and they could be fully integrated back into society. But if it was later than that, the kids could only do like when you see like

chimps learning to speak, it's like word association, the kids could only do like when you see like chimps learning to speak, it's like word association, banana hungry, you know, they couldn't learn syntax. And so, I think it also applies to accents. My sister was younger when we came to America, fully American, where I was sort of on that cusp. And so, I had an English accent living here for years before I kind of lost it, but I'm still bilingual. Yeah. We have three languages in our house. So English, Spanish, and Igbo. Igbo is an indigenous language from the southeast of Nigeria. So we're always using different words, but my daughter, her English is really, she just doesn't have many. She knows like pizza, which is an Italian word, right?

So she knows four languages. But like my daughter, like in this heart yesterday, she was crying about something. She was like, what was she saying? She said, este, este, which is like Spanish for this. And I was like, my husband speaks to her. I don't know what's going on here. So it's like this interesting thing where like each child is being drawn to their own culture, because there's no like real common culture of the house. I often think about like when they grow up, I'm like, are they going to be close? Are they going to, you know, you figured it out. Just move the morale.

Actually, wait, so let me ask you this. So one of my favorite things, just to give people a bit of context, Simon and I have, I don't know how long we've known each other for now. Probably three years. Yeah, somewhere there. Two or three years. But my favorite thing about you by far is that I just throw puzzles at you. I just go, here's a puzzle, what do you think?

And then you'll throw some at me and then we'll go back and forth. And what I love about you is the thing that most people like about you in the world is how your brain works and how you're able to synthesize information that sort of gives us an understanding of something that maybe we didn't understand. People describe you the same way you know that. Yeah, but I'm not formal with it. I'm like, my thing is- Formal?

No, no, no. What I mean by this is like- I'm not an academic. No, what I'm trying to say is like, I'm not always trying to help people. I think there's a difference. This man is chaotic good. I wouldn't distill me like that. Pure chaos.

I don't think that's fair. No, he's so fantastic. I don't think I'm pure chaos. I mean, I'm not a man of chaos. I'm not a man of chaos. I wouldn't distill me like that. Pure chaos. I don't think that's fair. No, he's so fantastic. I don't think I'm pure chaos. I mean, the thing that we enjoy about each other when we talk is we both enjoy chaos and finding the patterns in chaos.

Yes, exactly. And I think that's what creativity is. I think creativity is the ability to find order in chaos. And I love chaos, because chaos is where all the magic happens. Otherwise, everything's linear. But I think he creates the chaos. That's just the difference. I think he like, he will bring it. Unbelievable. You seek it out, he's the one bringing it.

Well, maybe he makes the chaos so that he can find the order. Perhaps it. I don't, you know, I resent all of these comments, but either way, I'm happy to have you here. Before I get into like my stuff, I wanted to know, is there a puzzle you're trying to solve right now that we can help you with? So I mean, the simple answer is yes. I am absolutely, absolutely fascinated by the world order. This is not something we're going to solve in a podcast.

No, we will. We will. We've got like 50 something odd minutes. Perfect. So I- Most world orders I can solve in a podcast. No, we will. We will. We've got like 50 something odd minutes. Perfect. So I- Most world orders I can solve in 30. So I just, I find this, the world order just absolutely fascinating, you know, and trying to understand how we got here as well. You know, where we went from the Cold War or Cold War 1.0, where it was very neat.

It was very neatly organized. Yeah. You had democracy and capitalists on one side and communists on the other side. And it was very clearly delineated that if you were communist, we weren't your friends and that was it. All the communists were in one team and all the democracies and capitalists or those who aspire to be were on the other team. Play. It was very, very simple. And both were reasonably rational and played by very similar rules. Well, that doesn't exist anymore and we now have ideologies mixed together. Our adversaries are also our trading

partners. It's a complete mess and continues to get messier and I'm absolutely fascinated by how our leaders don't really understand the world that we're operating in and how we got here, and yet they're attempting to make decisions to manage it or lead it. So this is great because... All of your listeners are tuned in for this. No, no, this is great. This is why people listen, trust me. This is why people listen, because I feel like to give people a little more context, you know, like you blew up on the scene many years ago.

I think you've had like multiple moments that have really put you into the zeitgeist. But one thing that I think has separated you from many people is that you're seen as somebody who is inspirational and thought provoking and really a modern day philosopher in how we see the world. But then you also seem like that by institutions in some ways. So you'll get brought in to speak to like military leaders or personnel and you'll get brought into speaking to like parts of government or companies. They'll go like, Simon, we need you to come in. Okay, I'm going to ask you a question. You don't have to expose anybody here. And I'll tell you what I think about it and then I'd love to know your opinion on it. In my time traveling around the world and spending a lot of time with leaders in America, not political by the way, just across the board, people who have power over other people

in any way, shape or form, I have been shocked at how much people who are in charge of shit do not know what is going on. And I'm going to repeat this a little bit slower because it shocked me when I came to the realization. Most of the people, many even of the people, let's not say most, many of the people who are in charge of companies, of institutions, of like, you know, the states, they do not know what is going on. It's an amateur point of view

because I don't work like with them. So you're the person who works with them. I wanna know like the people who are running the world, do they know what they're doing? I think your assessment is pretty spot on. I mean- Damn, we're in trouble. But like when I work with government or I work with military, like I'm constantly amazed at how much they know

and simultaneously amazed at how little they know. Huh, okay. And that's true for government and military. Like those things live in this strange paradox. Yeah. And it's constantly amazing to me how good they are and how bad they are simultaneously. There are multiple reasons for that. One is, and it's the same in the corporate world,

which is how we promote. There are tactical people and there are strategic people. Nobody's purely one or the other. Tactical people sort of know how to get things done. They're in the weeds. They can see the details. And the strategic people, a little more blue sky, can see sort of far off horizons. You know, the best strategic people aren't the best at tactics and the best tactical people aren't the good at strategy. What I found is fascinating, especially when you get to the higher echelons of government or military, which is the really great strategic thinkers know that they are bad at tactical thinking and surround themselves with good tactical thinkers.

The really great tactical thinkers who find themselves in high level positions think they're great at strategy. Oh, that's okay. So strategic people are more likely, in your opinion, to know that they aren't great at the tactics. Correct. But tactical people are less likely to know that they aren't. They think they're great at strategy. They think they're great at strategy. And they don't even understand it. Think of it like marketing. Marketing's a little more ethereal, it's a little more blue skyish. Finance, a little more detailed, a little more in the weeds, right? Marketers know that they're bad at finance. Finance people think they're good marketers. Where marketing people are like, you should probably get somebody in finance to look at that, I don't understand. And so what ends up happening is the tactical people, if they get promoted into strategic jobs,

they think they understand it, but they don't. And it's not that they don't understand, it's that their view is just too shallow. They're operating only with what they can see. And they're not very good at making decisions based on what they can't see or very long term. They don't understand like, if you pull lever A, then these things might happen. They just like pull lever A, get this. And you're like, yes, and this will be the response to that. There's not that way of thinking. And I think strategy in general is one of those very misunderstood things. It's hard, it's amorphous, and it's sort of in the clouds. But you're 100% right. I think that would be my assessment too. It's amazing

that the decisions are being made by people that don't fully understand the nuance. And simultaneously, there are people there whose minds will blow you away how much they understand and how smart they are and how they understand nuance better than... I actually appreciate that. It's the duality that's so confusing. I think we've all worked in places where we've been like, you know, my boss is an idiot, right? Yeah. And so for the person who's... But that wasn't you at the Daily Show, right?

No, I was like, my boss is this smart South African. Okay, all right. He's so brilliant. Because I don't know many places you've worked. I'm just trying to narrow down. Why? That's an interesting, we've all worked in places. Wow, that was a... I actually think Christiana does think or did think that maybe... I didn't think you were an idiot.

I didn't think you were an idiot. Do you think of yourself as an idiot? I actually do. Because I think of myself as an idiot. No, I don't think you're an idiot. I constantly disagree with him. I still disagree. But then I was like, this guy...

Which means I'm an idiot. Which makes a great entertainment, by the way. I was like, this is most amazing. I was like, he's mad. And he thought the same of me. So I thought he was, I always thought Trevor's brilliant. So it wasn't that I thought he was an idiot. Brilliant and an idiot.

Brilliant and an idiot. I actually do think that, no I do. But I'd say like we've all worked in places where the really smart person or the person that has the insight, whether it's strategically or tactically, is kind of like stuck in middle management and for whatever reason isn't able to maneuver to be in a position where they're like the boss, right? What would you advise that person? Because I know I have tons of friends like that and I'm like, they're just stuck

at this place in their career and their complaint is, my boss doesn't know what they're doing, the VP doesn't know what they're doing,, my boss doesn't know what they're doing, the VP doesn't know what they're doing, the COO doesn't know what they're doing. And it seems that like across the world, we just have this class of middle management who can't really make decisions. But for some reasons, there's something about them intrinsically

that they're not able to do the opposite. How do they stage a coup is what you're asking. Not stage a coup, but I'm saying that the people at the top are really good at, like, Trump is great at like, knowing how to get to the top. Whatever you think about him, he's one of these guys, he could go anywhere and end up at the top are really good at, like Trump is great at like knowing how to get to the top, whatever you think about him.

He's one of these guys, he could go anywhere and end up at the top. And he knows nothing. I think that's a talent. Whereas like- Well, he knows something. He knows something, but then the people that like have all the acumen, as you're saying, have the expertise, have the vision, seem to be stuck and they can't transform these organizations.

That's such a layered question. So, this is the most common question I get, by the way. I'm in middle management, and by the way, middle management is the most difficult job in the world because you have to be tactical and strategic. Because you're going down and up. You're going down and up. You have to do a job and also lead others doing a job. You're in a position where you have had not a lot of practice leading as well, so you're

learning on the job. You also absorb all the anger of the people beneath you. You can't reach the CEO. And the anger above you when they're frustrated with the people. And it's just, it's the worst place. And that's where most things die, you know, which is I've met, I've gone to companies with senior leaderships, incredible, they're wonderful, people focus, blah, blah, blah. And then you go to the front lines and you're like, this is an awful place.

Something happens in the middle. There's a class of people who are the angry smart people, who are angry. And by the way, I think they hate people like me and Trevor too. Well, I'll speak for me. There's this angry smart person who are absolutely smarter than the people above them. But what they don't understand is that intelligence alone is, you know, and book smarts is not the thing that puts you in a leadership position. Understanding people, understanding politics, understand how to navigate, you know, having EQ, these are necessary skills as well. And when they compare intelligence to intelligence, they'll always come up higher. I know loads of people like that.

Right. And in those cases, it's like the only common factor in all of their frustration with all the people they've worked for is them. So either everyone's an idiot or maybe there's a skill set that those people who are advancing are mastering that they're ignoring. It's also the incentive structures. Most organizations tend to overemphasize performance results above leadership capacity. Doing the job and leading others who do the job are not the same thing. You could be a great salesperson that doesn't make you a great sales manager, but we tend to promote great salespeople into the position of sales manager. Yeah.

Where you lead people who do the job you used to do, different skill sets. And so we don't promote very well. And so that's another reason which these people may be better leaders, but they're being overlooked because of what are the incentive structures inside the organization. And then ultimately, the incentive structures above them as well, which is the senior leaders are incentivized not to make the company better, at least in a public company, they're incentivized to make the stock price better. And so they're going to promote the people who do that. to make the stock price better. And so they're going to promote the people who do that. And the focus shouldn't be on the boss.

You can't control people you can't control. No number of anonymously sent books to your boss will change the way that they lead. Although I urge people to keep trying. Well, you're like, buy my book. Keep trying. It's not going to work, but keep trying. My advice is always the same, which is worry about the things you can control. Be the leader you wish you had, right? And

so how do you help the people for whom you're responsible? How do you help them rise? How do you help them build confidence? How do you help them build the skill sets? To the people to the left of you and to the right of you, even the person above you, that's a human being too, and we don't know the stresses that they're dealing with. And to have empathy for your boss who might have just yelled at you, to go into their office afterwards and say, are you okay? And truly become the leader you wish you had. Because what I've learned, especially if you would adopt an infinite mindset, which is if you let go of that things have to happen by a certain time, what will happen is that

influence, that will be a really well-led group. And generally, their performance will go up because they're well-led. And senior management will either just leave them alone because the numbers are good, or if they're curious, they'll say, what are you doing? And what will end up happening is one of those people will get promoted out, they'll take everything they've learned from that great leader, and that will infect another group. And before you know it, the tail wags the dog.

That's interesting. Now we're like into kind of this workplace dynamic space. Could you tell the audience more about your view on gossip? Because I come on the other side of it. And I don't like the word gossip. I think we should call it oral history because that's what it is. Oral history in real time. In real time. Is that true? Yeah. I mean, I come from a line of griots, West African. But isn't it?

That's how our story in the past, morally. Yeah, but how do you define gossip then? So like, I think gossip is really important for protecting the tribe, is how we- No, no, but how do you define gossip? So what I mean is like, okay, for me, when I hear gossip, I go, gossip is a story about something or someone from my perspective that is salacious in some way, shape or form, but it isn't necessarily the same as history because history is a thing that happened.

And look, everyone's gonna be biased, but I always feel like telling a story involves like a little, I think it's two things. Okay, so the main one is trying to be impartial. You don't gossip about the history of your people. You just tell the story of it, right? That's what I think of with like the griots and the... But you know, history and gossip is interchangeable for me.

I'm with you in some ways. And then the second one for me, and this is a big one, is I don't think people ever need to whisper about histories. Oh, some people should. No, no, I mean amongst like, do you get what I'm saying? That's what I always think like a gossip, for me is, this is my personal, is like if you ever need to like look before you say the thing, I think that's more gossip than history. Like, I never need to say to you, like, if you go

like, Christiana, tell me about your family, and then I go like, well, my mom, so my mom started working when she was, that to me is not gossip. But you know what, history, because we're on the other side of it, at the time they were, when they were burning all those witches, do you think they were like, we're about to burn ten witches? But that's because there's an immediate danger as opposed to like a shaming that's going to come. I think gossip is frowned upon because women do it. I think everybody does it.

That's how, but women do it really well. You know what, my closest male friends are great gossips. Again, oral historians. So they'll be like, Shana. But oral history is a recounting where gossip is laced with judgment. I mean, history is laced with, like, there is no neutral history. There's no neutral history. Let's bring it down a few thousand feet, right? Which is, so I think venting is important. Okay. So you leave work that day, you pick up the phone, you're like, and you just get it all out,

you say all the stupid things, and you just need to get it out. It's a venting, right? You think that's good. I think venting is very healthy. Okay. Okay. Venting is healthy. It's like any tension in any relationship. Sometimes you just need to say it and then you're fine. Okay. So I think venting at work is very important. And I'm on the other side. Like as a black woman, I never vent at work. Okay. Well, let's see. You can vent about work to other people. Okay, go on. I mean, or you can vent at work about your

husband. I mean, like you vent about your kids. So venting, so the most important thing for you is releasing the exhaust gases. That's essentially what you're saying. That's all it is. Doesn't matter where you're doing it. I mean, I think you have to have some... So you can vent about work at home and you can vent about home at work. And you have to have emotional professionalism. You know, you can't vent about your boss to somebody who works for you because your voice carries influence.

Got it, got it, got it. Okay. Right? And then you're going to start muddying the waters. But you can vent to somebody you're friends with at work and they know you're just venting and it doesn't affect their opinion about the person you're talking to. And before you move on, why is venting good? Because I think it releases tension. Because I think if you keep the tension in, it builds, it builds, it builds,

and you start forming a narrative about a person that they're dumb, they're stupid, and you start treating them that way. Oh, okay. So gossip, I think, is perpetuating narratives that may or may not be true. Can I tell you what office gossip normally, someone who's writing a lot of office, it's normally done in a group chat. Yeah.

And it's like, this is what office gossip is. It's, you know, the Christmas party. So-and-so hooked up with so-and-so. Really? They did. Oh, there are no more sausage rolls because so-and-so took more sausage rolls. That's what office gossip is. It's just a litmus test of the culture

and the happenings all the time. I'm telling you from the group chat. And then sometimes it slides into, you know, she did this today. Oh, that's so annoying. But the way gossip works and there's enough factions in the office, it's really hard to completely change the perception of one person. I have not found a situation. And if everyone hates you, there's good reason. Gossip can destroy a culture. It can, but it's also like don't go into that guy's office because he's got, he's very handy-pandy. Like, gossip, I'm like, because there's been research on gossip. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait. That's sounds like a warning to me versus gossip.

But it is gossip. I mean, it's not journalism. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, It can be very dangerous. I know a company that gossip is a firing offense because it's so destructive.

And when they think about gossip, they're talking about spreading rumors about a person, even if you think it's true. And can I tell you something about, I bet you about that company, they protect a lot of men. Oh, this is an interesting idea. Because I think gossip's a crucial social language. It's a very female... If we say no gossip, I think it insulates poor leadership. I think it insulates bullies, because there are always these managers who are bullies. And you can't share your experience without being labeled gossip.

So it's just like, how do I share? This is very interesting. I think we need another word here. Because I think you... I had oral history. I don't know if that's the right word. I think we need another word here because I think you and I are talking about different things. Okay.

Because I agree with you and I wouldn't classify that stuff as gossip. But some people would. Some people would say, well, that's gossip. You weren't there. You can't prove that he looked at her a certain way. You can't prove that he's a bully. This is why offices- But by the way, gossip spreads much quicker and easier in virtual. When you're in an office and you interact with people and somebody's really nice, on a daily basis, it always says hi. And somebody goes, that person is the worst person in the world to work with.

And they're like, they're really nice. But when we're separated from each other, what I've learned, what I've found is that false narratives about somebody swirl way quicker. The difference though is like with gossip versus, like let's say in office. I don't understand. I love how we're all having a conversation about the office, like from our corporate jobs. Yeah, but we've all been in offices.

I've worked a ton of different jobs. I want to know the jobs you had in an office. Unsuccessfully, I worked as like, what do you call them, clerks sometimes with the person's job is to get the papers and- Yeah, mailroom type. Yeah, like that. I've done that. I worked in an office because I was a meter reader, you know, like reading electricity

and water meters. Then you'd be in the office with the people. Can I read your meter, please? Yeah. That type of thing. I don't, then you'd be in the office with the people. Can I read your meter please? That was you? That type of thing. I don't know if that's working in an office. That's going to an office and then leaving. Well, what is the difference between? And then The Daily Show was an office for hundreds of years.

So you're saying it's funny we talk about offices. I think most people, if I was to bet, most people listening to this podcast work in an office. Yeah. Most people in the developed world work in an office. It's like the thing. I understand the idea behind like, let's eliminate gossip. That's not going to eliminate like the nastiness of office politics and how human beings behave. And I think

gossip can be a great pressure release valve. So we did this in our company because I was very public about it with the whole team, which is I said from now on, when somebody says something about someone's intentions or labels their character, it is everyone's responsibility in that meeting to interrupt that train of thought and raise the question. So, for example, that guy's so lazy, right? Oh my God, he's so lazy. All is needed is for anybody in the room to say, could be lazy, or could be stressed, or has some stuff going on at home, or we've put them in a job, they

don't know how to do it, and so they're freaking out. Like, to just add to a list of other possibilities that it could be that's getting the results that we're getting. Lazy's absolutely on the list. And it's just giving people grace that we're not judging why they're performing the way they are or why they are the way they are. So, I'll give you another example. I went for a walk with a friend of mine, she wanted some advice and the conversation started like this. My boss is a horrible person and I immediately interrupted and said, oh my God, does she kick her dog and abuse her children? She said no I said, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's a horrible boss

Those are two very very different things And I think that's the problem when we label someone's behavior or skill set versus labeling their character and when we label their character It's insidious and dangerous and that's when it gets toxic We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. You know, when I'm listening to this, I can't help but wonder if we always talk about companies as if they're these isolated spaces, but it feels like you live in a world where you're constantly exposed to the petri dishes of society. Because what is a company if not a manufactured community?

It's a collection of people. It's all it is. It's a collection of people. It's a modern tribe. There you go. That's all it is. And so these are the people you, because of, let's say, your job, maybe you chose, but you sort of didn't choose them because you weren't the person hiring all of them and you weren't the person.

So in many ways, it is like a tribe, it is like a community. These people have happened into your life, and now you have to choose how to treat them and how not to treat them. So the thing that pops into my mind as I'm thinking about this is, is it harder for us to be better or to treat people or to give them the benefit of the doubt in a corporate setting, or is this just a magnifying glass that's put on us and our

ability outside of the corporate setting? Like, where have you found it easier to apply these principles? Because everything you're saying to me sounds like things we should be doing in real life. So we should go, I don't like that person's music. I don't like how they looked in some pictures. I don't like the way they speak as opposed to saying that person's an asshole. And it's like, well, how do you know they're an asshole? I can tell. You're like, okay, but what of them? And we've seen this happen online. You can just like build all of a sudden there's like a movement and everyone's just like, we hate

them. But why is this? An example for me was like, we hate them. And you're like, but why is this? An example for me was like, Anne Hathaway. Do you remember there was a time when Anne Hathaway was hated? Yeah, for sure. And she'd done nothing in hindsight. That's my thing. I'm not like chronically online, so I pop in and I'll miss things and I'm like, what did she do? And then I'll go down to rabbit hole and I'm like, I still, I can't find it. And then she'd like danced at a film festival or something or an after party and then people are like, she's amazing. I was like, what has happened in her life or in people's lives that this shifted? And that's a good example of the swirl of that. So that's what I mean.

It can destroy someone's character. And this is where I think these things get dangerous. But you're a hundred percent right, which is the office is a little petri dish and everything that we learn at work is applicable. The best organizations are values-based, right? Yeah, but what does that mean? I'll be honest, I'm always confused about that because I go, for me, a company's values are to make money. Yeah. So that's, go on. No, no, and I mean this, and I'm not saying it are to make money. That's, yeah. So that's go on. No, no. And I mean this, and I'm not like saying it in an attacking way.

I go, I'm always thrown when a company says like, our values, our, cause I go, these are your values. Yeah. But if losing money comes into the equation, you will adapt your values. So then they aren't values to me. Correct. That's, that's what I always think of. So I go like, can a company actually have values beyond making money?

So you are highlighting the very problem with modern capitalism, right? The capitalism that we have today is not Adam Smith capitalism. That's not the capitalism we have today. We have a bastardized form of capitalism influenced by an economist from the late 70s named Milton Friedman. The Adam Smith version of capitalism was that the baker selfishly wants to make the best bread so that they can sell more bread than all the other bakers.

And the butcher selfishly wants to make the best meat so he can sell more than all the other butchers. And the dairy farmer wants to make the best butter so that he can sell more. And what you get is the best sandwich. What we as the customer get is the best sandwich, right? So the selfish behavior of wanting to be better than their others benefits the customer, right? And in the late 1970s, Milton Friedman wrote an op-ed in the New York Times where he basically

proposed a new definition of business. He actually called it the responsibility of business. The responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics. Maximize profits within the bounds of the rules, right? Ethics are a higher standard of the rules. Forget about ethics. Maximize profits within the bounds of the rules. Okay. Ethics are a higher standard than the rules. And you see it all the time. Companies did some horrifically unethical things. A patent to an essential drug, and they raised the

price 1500%. Right. It's within the rules. And they all say the same thing. We broke no laws. Which is Which is true, right? Horrible, but not illegal, right? And so in the late 70s and early 80s, a lot of the sort of the ruling classes, the CEO classes heard this definition and went, yeah, baby, right? And they embraced Friedman's definition of capitalism or business, the responsibility of business, and they sort of doubled down on it. And you started, it gave rise to some entirely new behaviors and entirely new CEOs.

There was no- This is just from this op-ed? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like it became a popular thing. Wow, Milton, that's a high hit rate. Well done, Milton. I don't like Milton Friedman, right? Is Milton Friedman still alive?

No. Oh, okay, that's why you can say it like that. Otherwise, that would be like a crazy move if you were just like, I hate you, Milton Friedman. And Milton Friedman's like, ah, Simon Sinek. Okay, you hate him. oh, there we go. OK. Can't speak about his character, but I don't like the work

he put out there. And so you started to see these new behaviors arise. So for example, the use of mass layoffs to balance the books on an annualized basis, right? Yeah. Did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s. It didn't exist. Layoffs, mass layoffs were used for existential reasons.

Like, oh my god, the company's going bankrupt. We have to cut 10% of our workforce. Now it's like, we're profitable, which is not as profitable as we promised. You lose your job, right? That started in the early 1980s and it started to gain popularity. And then it gave rise to an entirely new type of CEO,

like Jack Welch, who was the CEO of GE. And he was like the poster child of Miltonian economics, where you started to see the shareholder being prioritized over the customer and the employee. You started to see shorter-term time horizons. You started to see an emphasis on price of stock versus is this good for the company's long-term value. You started to see long-term greed being replaced by short-term greed. I don't have an issue with long-term greed, but short-term greed is a problem. And the use of human beings' livelihoods to maximize shareholder value. And this was all because of this Miltonian influence, Jack Welch, poster child, that is the standard of how businesses

are led today. There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's a huge problem with this version of capitalism. And you can see what's happening. There's a rise of populist movements across the West and capitalist societies. I don't care if you're on the left and right, Bernie or Trump, it doesn't matter. And they're complaining about the same thing, which is the very small percentage of the elite are getting richer and everybody else is being left behind. And when you have a huge delta between those who have and those who don't, what you get is revolution. The middle class is drying up and people are not

investing in the stock market anymore. The whole stock market exists so that the average working American can share in the wealth of a nation. That's why we have a stock market. That's what Alexander Hamilton imagined, right? And the, but that's not what we have anymore. So what happens? It's become a game for a few so they can command more wealth. And just to put one final sort of

cap on it, if you go back to the anthropology of leadership, like if we go back 50,000 years, whatever you want to do, where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200 people, years, whatever you want to do, where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200 people. Human beings evolved into naturally hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha, depending on whatever the standards are for that group, who's alpha. And we treat our alphas differently, right? You know this.

As soon as you started getting some fame, you're better looking and all your jokes are funnier, right? If you leave your jacket in another room, somebody goes and gets your jacket for you. If you're junior and you leave a jacket in the other room, you get your own jacket, right? That's just how it works. And so what we did was we assessed our alphas and we stepped back and we allowed our alphas

to get first choice of meat and first choice of mate, except the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat and first choice of mate to our alphas for nothing. There's a deep-seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe, we expect the person who's actually stronger, actually smarter, actually better fed to confront the danger, to protect the tribe. That's why we give you all the perks.

You don't get the perks for free. They come at a cost. And so that's the deep-seated social contract. We have no problem with CEOs making more money than us. Where it broke the contract and why you get the anger is not the disparity. It's when we started to see the people who are in alpha positions, when danger threatened the tribe, the economy took a little shake, whatever it is, that they would sooner sacrifice the people to protect their own interests rather than sacrifice their interests for the short term to protect the people. And that's why we're getting the populist reaction.

That's what it is. It's the people saying, you have violated your... and so we're coming for you with Pitchfork. I mean, it's no different in many ways to what we see in countries, right? 100%. So people will say we want democracy. Like, the idea of democracy is very popular because it's been attached to things like fairness and equality, et cetera. But I would

argue most people would be fine living in a dictatorship or under monarchy if their lives were good. Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government. Yeah, like it's like people don't actually care really. The problem is succession. Yeah, that's actually the thing, you know? And so what you're saying now is, I think of how many people... Let's say in America, we start with the US. One of the more interesting things I saw was on AOC's Instagram page, right?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She asked people after the election, hey, I noticed that Trump won the election, but he lost on the down ballots in many places. And now a lot of people are saying this is a conspiracy. They're saying, how could Trump have won the election? But the people in these certain counties and whatever, or states, they voted Democrat, but then Trump won? What's going on here? And so she said, just for me, can you all tell me if you voted for me and Trump? I want to know if that's possible. And her, I don't know what the number

was, but it looked like she was flooded with replies. And then she started posting them on her page. And it was amazing to see how many people said, I voted for you and Trump. Because while you two don't see eye to eye, you are both doing the same thing in my eyes, which is you're dismantling the system that has put me in this position. AOC is going, break it all apart. Trump is saying, break it all apart.

AOC saying, these people are screwing you over. Trump is saying, these people are screwing you over. And then you see it with leaders as well. They're killing it, they're doing well, they're having fun. And then you see it with leaders as well. They're killing it. They're doing well. They're having fun. And then on the ground, you're not having a good time. And then it leads us to, it leads us to a lot of what we have now.

And so the reaction isn't throw out capitalism and democracy. The answer is throw out this form of capitalism. Go back. But do you, how do they respond? Yeah, but how do they respond when you, because you actually hang out with CEOs. How do they respond? Well, the ones who hang out with CEOs, how do they respond? Well, the ones who agree with me hang out with me. Ah, okay.

The ones who don't agree with me don't call me. Have you ever changed the CEO's mind? The problem is not their mind, the problem is their incentive structure. Like I remember I was working with a CEO and gave him some counsel on sort of how to organize things better. And he was really honest. He's like, I totally agree with everything you're telling me. And your insights are spot on and I completely agree

and I'm going to implement none of it. Because if I do it your way, I won't get my bonus. He was just very blunt with me. Damn. And so, but there are good leaders who are taking risks to fight the machine. There's also a younger generation of leaders

that are coming up. The newer companies, the newer CEOs are raising these questions. And you start to hear things like triple bottom line, and you start to hear these things. But you're 100% right. You know, the number of, look, the fact that, what's it, the, I've forgotten, all the businesses's it the, I've forgotten,

all the businesses that come together, I've forgotten what they're called, but a few years ago they put out a statement saying purpose really matters in business. Okay. But when I started, like if you talked about purpose at work, you were just a weird ass hippie. And every company has a purpose statement on their website,

even if they don't follow it, even if it's just because they have to. But that's at least progress. I think it's because we probably fall on different parts of the capitalist debate and we're not going to get into it because I hate capitalism. But you are a champagne socialist. I don't think it's a system that can be redeemed personally, especially America's history of racial capitalism. I guess I object

to the fact that why should I find purpose in work? Like, I actually deeply recoil when I hear that because I'm just like, oh, so you want me to feel like, it's like kind of the wellness industry, right? This way of feeling good about yourself in order to sell me more things. And I'm like, why should my, to me, my purpose can never, ever be in work. God forbid an office. And God forbid my boss coming to me and saying like, what's your why? And I'm like, well, my why is to be with my family and my friends and my community. This is just how I make money. Is that all this is for your transaction?

Yeah, especially Trevor. Ah, it's all a transaction. This episode, we're talking with Simon Sinek about how to find meaning and satisfaction in the work that you do. And let's be honest, a big part of that is making sure you end up in the right role at the right place. In other words, it's all about hiring, recruiting, and finding the perfect match. That's what's inspired this next special part of today's episode. Next big opportunity brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Let me give you one example of a job opportunity up right now on ZipRecruiter.

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She'd only set out to hire two people, but she had so many great candidates that she ended up hiring four people in one week. Whatever role you're looking to fill, ZipRecruiter can help. With smart matching technology and handy tools like ZipIntro, you'll find a potential hire in no time. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com slash Trevor. That's ziprecruiter.com slash T-R-E-V-O-R. See for yourself.

Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Trevor. This has been Next Big Opportunity, brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Now, back to our conversation with Simon Sinek. There's a really beautiful story I read. There was an explorer, I don't know, I'm very bad with years, but I remember the stories. And it was, there was an explorer in England who went and bumped into an undiscovered tribe, right?

They hadn't made contact with the English. And this guy befriended them and they welcomed him in, all things were good. And then he like sort of learned to communicate with them. And it was this beautiful little journey where he learned their way of life and had a wonderful time. And they were really an altruistic, you know, community. And they had different laws, by the way, sort of murder was legal in some ways. You could just kill somebody. And then the tribe was just like, well, you did it and we keep it moving.

We don't like judge you. We don't. But he was like, surprisingly, everyone didn't kill each other. So they were definitely different, right? After spending, you know, months or even years with them, he goes back to England and he says to like the chief of the tribe and like some of the others, he's like, hey, you should come with me to England. And they travel back to England and they like spending time with him and his family. You know, you can imagine this life now you've gone from like the jungle to, you know, London. Victoria and London.

Yeah, yeah, and he says to them, he says, what do you, so what do you think? And he says like, he thought these guys are going to be mesmerized because there's technology and like there's, you know, carriages and there's all kinds of stuff. He's like, so what do you think? And he says, they were not impressed at all. The only thing that impressed them was the butchery. They were really shocked that you could just go and get meat. They were like, what? They were literally, they were like, that's the only thing that made them happy. They're like, wow, you can just go get meat anytime you want. That's pretty cool. Everything else they didn't care about. And it culminated in a question that they asked him one day. After a week or so of staying together, he came home,

and one of the tribes people asked him, said, hey, where do you go every day? The guy said, what? And he said, every day you leave this house, you're gone. We're here with like your family, and then you come back. Where do you go every day? And he's like, oh, I go to work. And they're like, ah, they go to work. And they're like, ah, they're like, well, why don't you take your family with you? And he's like, oh, yeah, they don't allow that at my work. That's not how we do things here. And they go, oh, okay. And they're like, well, do you like your work more than your family? And he's like, no, no, no, I love my family the most. And they said, well then why don't you quit your work and just stay with your family? And he said, no, I have to work for my family so that we can live.

And then they said, well, this system doesn't make sense because if you're working to be with your family, but you have to leave your family to go to work, then you're doing the wrong thing in the wrong way. And then he said, well, how do you, how do you do it? I have to have the house and I have to, and they said in our community, when somebody needs a house, we all come together, we build them a house. Takes us about a month, there's now a house,

and then we go back to living our lives with our families. And if somebody needs something else, we get together, we do that for them, and then we go back. And he says it was the first time that he was ever confronted with the notion that the way we live isn't normal, like the office, the work, the family, the thing. And then they went back, by the way, he was like, do you guys want to...

They're like, oh, no, no, no, no, we're very happy to leave. By the way, give us some meat, that was really cool. And then they went back home and they lived their lives. I just struggle with the idea of infusing these corporations with purpose and spirituality, because I... And the community I belong to, we find that elsewhere. It's like your job is your job. I feel very fortunate to do a job that I enjoy, despite it being with Trevor a lot of the time.

There's a whole wonderful crew here. Yeah. Yeah, forget them. But no, it's just like, I butt up against that, because in the tech world, it looks like, OK, now we're going to give you a gym in the office because that would make them feel better, and they have somewhere to sleep, and like, what that gets laid and sleep is just,

it's just whole profit. How do you define the value and the purpose? So we're conflating a bunch of things here, right? I don't think any of that's purpose either. That stuff is superficial and it's trappings, and none of that stuff makes for quote unquote culture either, right? So just go back a few years. It's superficial and it's trappings and none of that stuff makes for a quote unquote culture either. Yeah. Right?

So just go back a few years. So there was a time not that long ago where you're right, where you went to work simply to make the money to pay for your stuff and you were friends with your neighbors and you had a sense of tribe with your neighbors and you got some sort of belonging or community or moral guidance from church and you had bowling on Saturdays and Thursdays, you had the tournaments on Thursday nights, and we had these things. Sunday dinners. Sunday dinners and all these traditions and institutions.

The bowling clubs, the bowling leagues went away, church attendance is down. We're not really friends with our neighbors, but we still have desire for all these things. And so a lot of pressure was put on work to give me these things that I used to get outside of work. So it's not all work trying to force these things on you. Some of it was the changing world around us and we are demanding of our offices to give it to us because we're not getting it anywhere else. Yeah.

And I don't want it from my office. And that's totally fine. I have to be here more. I want to be with my people. And that's totally fine by the way. And that's totally fine. But when I talk about purpose at work, right, I'm not talking about something spiritual or anything like that. When we talk about vision, whether it's vision, the best companies sound like, they sound like social movements, right? Which is scary to me because I don't want to. It's cultish.

No, I meet a lot of people that work for these types of vision-driven, purpose-driven cult. I'm like, you've joined a cult and they will fire you too. And by the way, so hold on, but you're conflating so, there's a swirl of stuff going on here. I think they clarify it for me. So you're right, it is cultish. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because it means I believe there's a shared set of values.

I feel like I belong. I feel like I found my tribe. The company actually does obey its values and would sacrifice its short-term money to uphold its values. Those are good companies. And when you say, oh, they'll just fire you, the bad companies will. Trust me, I'm with you on the tech. They say all the right things, they put the values on the wall, but it's all a punch line and they don't use them to make decisions.

So you're 100% right there. But I'll take you to see some companies where they are treated right, they don't get fired simply because the company's struggling, and they are hired slowly because they try and choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits, right? Which is,

I like it here. I want to give to the people to the left and right of me because they give to me. And they have a psychological safety when they come to work. They feel like someone's got their back. I guess what I object to... And those are beautiful things. Yeah. I think what I object to fundamentally is like the privatization of a sense of belonging. I don't actually think that's the job of a business. I don't believe that's the job of business.

I believe that is actually the job of your community and your people. Can I throw something in? And then I'm like, restore the community. No, but can I throw a reel with you? I'm not in the business of being like, let's make these businesses and places of purpose and belonging, because that's just like... No, so I'll throw one thing in separately actually, because I don't consult with companies in that way.

But I do think, for me at least personally, when we talk about purpose, I sometimes think about it through the lens of funny enough pyramids. You know, when I went to Peru and you go to Machu Picchu and you're looking at the pyramids, the immediate assumption that Western anthropologists had when they came was, oh, they did this using slavery. They were like, oh, you guys had slaves and that's how you built the thing. And historians who are from Peru go, no, oh, they did this using slavery. They were like, oh, you guys had slaves and that's how you built the thing. And historians who are from Peru go, no, no, no, you assume that because that's how you built your empires. You only know how to build using slavery. They go, these people had purpose.

And their purpose was, they woke up every day, they said, we're building a temple to the gods. And no one was like forcing anyone. They were like, yo, yo, temple time? Temple time, baby. And everyone got together and they're like, why do we push these rocks? For the gods. And now someone might be like, ah, they were being manipulated. Who told them about the gods? Okay, we can have that conversation forever. But I do think there's a different thrust that people experience where like, you feel like you are doing something or moving towards something. And while it doesn't replace your community for me, it adds to my community.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like even working with you, like at the Daily Show, working with people, there's like a vibe of like, where I'm like, yeah, we're like, we're trying to do something. Sometimes we don't, sometimes we do. But there's like a, it's like we're trying to move in the same direction. And that for me, if you do it right,

I think it's something beautiful. But to your point, I think a lot of companies scam people on that. That's why I was asking about the values. But even if they're sincere, I just don't think that's the role of a company. I think that's a profound failure. But I'm saying, but I'm saying, I know people who want to go to like, people in my family, I go to work, I come home. I agree.

I agree with you. But I'm saying what are you doing at work? That's maybe my thing. Because I agree with you. I go to work, I come home. You know? And it's just like- No, but I agree, I agree with you. But I'm saying, what are you doing at work? That's maybe my thing. Because I agree with you. I go to work, I come back, yes. But then there's also a third option, which is, which work do I go to? Yeah.

Yeah. That's what I think about- If I offered you more money to go have the exact same job with a different person, would you take it immediately? No, but I'm in this cult with Trevor. But hold on. He's kind of, but I can't get rid of him. I can't get rid of him. But you just said- I'm in this cult with Trevor. But hold on. He's kind of... I can't get rid of him. You just said...

I can't get rid of him. You just said... Because I'm in the corporate cult with him. So you just... But you're not following your own rules. No, I'm saying I feel that... I come from a position where I feel like it's a real luxury to do what I do. Like I get to write for a living, I get to think, I get to speak, right? Most of my people in my life, that's not what they do. It's not what my parents got to do, that's not what my grandparents got to do.

So, I guess I come from a different kind of working lineage. Yeah. And because of that, I don't try and entrust too much meaning into the job. Like, it's not supposed to give me fulfillment or community. But it does. But, I mean, sometimes it does, not all the time. But sometimes it does. But when it doesn't...

Sometimes your friends do, sometimes your friends don't. I think my issue is for most people, their job does not give them that profound sense of meaning. And I'm just like, we need to live in a world that even if your job doesn't give you that, that's fine. But it seems that what you do and a lot of people advocate is coming from it from the other side. Let's make these businesses give to people what their general world should be given to them as well. I hear you, and I just appreciate the irony of the thing you're railing against is the thing that you fully have embraced, which is if I offered you more... You said it's just a place to make money, to serve my family, and I would get my community somewhere else. But if I offered you more money to work for somebody

else. But I'm a socialist, that's why, you know, champagne socialist. Yeah, but if I gave you more money to go somewhere else, you wouldn't want to, you'd want to stay here because you quote unquote like it here. And you feel on some occasions that you actually are contributing, like the messages you're spreading and especially on the Daily Show, you know, the stuff that you're putting out there in some way, shape or form was informing people and helping people understand the world and make sense of the world. That was the thing you were contributing to and it gave the work meaning. You didn't just come to work and be like, oh, I've got to work and write again.

You're like, no, I'm enjoying this because I feel like I'm advancing somewhere. I will say I did and maybe I come to it from a different vantage point as like as a mother. I have a lot of friends who have decided to spend like the very early childhood years at with their children, which is a privilege. And it's because the thing that takes you out of the home has to be so fulfilling to be like, I'm not going to be with this kid when they're learning to walk and they're learning to talk, et cetera, et cetera. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. How do we better find, not necessarily the purpose, and not always the meaning, but sort of that why,

but notice that it's always shifting. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, I understand like you're talking to a company, and you're saying to them, look, you are a collection of people. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I understand like you're talking to a company and you're saying to them, look, you are a collection of people. Yeah. And so you have to ask yourself what you would like this collection of people to be moving towards or how you would like them to even be with one another. Right.

That's what, that's what I assume you're doing. On a good day. Yeah. But there are also people, right? And so I wonder whether, you know, looking at your own life or looking at all of the learnings that you've come across, is there a way that we can all, doesn't matter where we are in our world, is there a way that we can always hone in on the sort of

quote unquote why, that shifts? Because to your point, I think it's great that a mother goes, I don't know about my job. And I think we should be living in a world where you are able to do that, because the same people who will complain about women, like, you know, oh, she's having kids and blah, are the same people who often complain about birth rates declining. Yeah. I always find that, you know, ironic. They'll be like, the birth rates, look at the birth rates.

And I'm like, but who do you think gives birth? And why do you think that they're not having as much birth time? Yeah. You know? Yes, because, no, really, I do believe that. So, yeah, I would love to know what you think we could do. So, by the way, I think you and I agree more than not, which is just my attitude is, is like, the world is the way it is.

And if we're gonna go to work, then work should at least feel like I'm contributing. And I wanna go home at the end of the day, like, if you work hard for something you believe in, it's passion. If you work hard for something you don't believe in, it's stress. And I would rather people,

even if they work really hard, to be like, you know what, the sacrifice was worth it because I feel like my work has some value in the world. It meant something. And when it's done right, it's gorgeous. But the problem is, and you said it, superficially people say the same words, talk about the same values. The difference is they're not actually living them or doing them. To go to your point about the why, a why is fundamentally an origin story.

That's all it is. And a why does not change. You have one why your whole life, and that's it. Because you are the sum total of how you were raised. You have one why your whole life? You have one why your whole life. You are the sum. Whoa, whoa, whoa, Simon.

Now I'm going to be fighting with you before we go. Wait, what? Yes. Tell me more. Tell me more. Oh, and now we're out of time. You have one why. You have one why your entire life, because you are the product of how you were raised. Okay.

That's, I mean, you're not going to, like, you are who you are. Okay. And there's nothing that can happen in your life that will make you not who you are. Now, you can pretend you're someone different. We would call you inauthentic. And when I uncover a why, literally all I'm doing is going backwards, discover the patterns of what made you who you are. And then I'm trying to put words on them. And it's the same for a company. Walt Disney, when it does things right, is fundamentally the origin story of Walt Disney's vision of the world.

This escape from the stressful lives that we have to go into this magical place and we can leave reality for a moment. That's literally what it says in the plaque outside Disneyland, you know? And that's all, if you look at the beginnings of things, we can do a little, let's have a little fun. I've been having fun, just for the record. I've only been having fun. It's my time. Welcome to what now, which ever now. I've only been having fun. It's my time! Welcome to What Now, it's your time now. I've only been having fun.

Tell me something specific that you've worked on in your entire career. It does not have to have been commercially successful. Okay. But something specific that you worked on in your career that you loved being a part of and if every project was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. Something specific. This is my thinking music, everyone, when I think properly. It would probably be the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

Okay. Tell me, tell me of all of the amazing things you've done in this remarkable career of yours, what was it about the White House Correspondents' Dinner that stands out that you want to bring it up now? So I've actually thought a lot about this. So I'm also cheating a little bit, everyone, because I do think about this all the time. The reason it was that for me was because firstly, I had no boss. This is very important to me in life, right? I had no boss. Secondly, the thing had a natural conclusion, right? It does not go infinitely, right? I think

everything should end. I'm a big fan of endings. It's wonderful in life. Third is I could bring on whoever I wanted. And it was a wide range of people, by the way. Some people were writers, some people were not. Some people were comedians, some people were not. Okay? You've had those experiences in other jobs. When you were at The Daily Show, you could fill the writer's room with whatever you wanted. I mean, you had a boss, but kind of. No, no, no. But it makes a big difference. It's like, because at the Daily Show, for instance, I was working for somebody and the somebody I'm working for is the network. So

you're always fighting this balance between what do you think is important to do or create and what do these people want? Because you can do what you think is important and if the ratings are terrible, at some point they go, it's time for you to leave. Right? So now you and to be honest with you, I think that's one of the biggest problems with television and art right now in the world. Right? If you look at the MGM logo, you know, it's Trayvon, our friend who was on one of the podcasts. He pointed this out to me even. It's like in Latin, we know in that lion roars before the movie, in Latin it says there, art for the sake of art. And I don't think we do that anymore. I don't

think we, like, people don't make movies because they think making a movie is a beautiful thing for people to experience. People don't tell stories because it's like, it just makes you feel good as a person. No, okay, how much would it get? Will there be a sequel? Can we get more money? Is there franchising? For you, the correspondence center was pure. In as many ways as it could be? Yes, it was. Do you get what I'm saying? I do. And so that's the thing.

So everything in your life was like that? Game on. Game on. Okay. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you. An early specific... A specific happy childhood memory. ... childhood memory. Yeah. Damn, this is an interesting one.

Let me think, because there's many. How old? Give me an age and I'll tell you. I don't care. No, but when does childhood end? Forties two. Okay. No, no, I'm being serious though.

When you're a child, like under, in school, like an early childhood memory. One of my happiest childhood memories is me playing- Everyone who's ever asked me, what do you mean by childhood? Yes, because I think your memories at different ages are very- Definitely early specific childhood memories. Yeah, so okay, when I think of young Yang Yang, one of my favorite memories was playing on the roundabout at a park near my house. This is something, a specific time, not just a thing you did.

No, no, no. This is what it was a specific one. Okay. Yeah. Go on. And we were all seeing how we were all teaming up. I got a bunch of people together to see how fast we could make this thing spin. But like it was, it was a monumental effort. Do you know what I mean? Cause everyone had to be at the right place, swinging the thing at the right time to get it. Our goal was to make it fly. That was the dream. We thought if we spin it hard enough, it's going to take off. And this, this was a, but that was one of my, when I think back, I go like, wow, what a day, what a day.

Pete And of all the amazing things you had happen in this magical childhood that you've talked about, what specifically was it about this one thing that stands out so much that you want to talk about it now? Well, I think for me, it's many of the things that I was saying with the White House Correspondents Dinner, right? It's collaboration. I chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick the random kids who when you had no coordination, because the thing's going to smack you in the hands. Right? So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest, like, you know, most affable. We put the people together and we were like, this works.

So it wasn't like if you were the small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push. But we put people together and it matched in many ways. Right? And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing was that we were having fun. And I mean this genuinely, we were having, we had a purpose, but man, we were having fun. So you, so now what I'm doing is I'm looking

for the connection between those things and saying, okay, that's the common factor, right? You're the first person I've ever talked to ever, and I've done hundreds of these, who said, I'm telling you the same story. I can hear that they're the first person I've ever talked to ever, and I've done hundreds of these, who said, I'm telling you the same story. I can hear that they're the same story, but you're the first person who can hear it, who's able to- Oh yeah, I'm always cognizant of these things.

But, so I'm just, so just to pay that compliment that you're living outside your own head, but this is the thing, which is you, where you find great joy is when you can bring the right people together to do something that matters and have a ton of fun doing it. Yes. Okay? And that's sort of your purpose in life, which is to bring people together to do something bigger than themselves and have a good time doing it. Right. And if everything you do in your life, you can, is that, is that, is that...

Yeah, the merry-go-round. That roundabout. We also call it merry-go-round. Yeah. And everything in your life was like that roundabout. That is what a game on is. Yeah. And so the opportunity for you is to remind yourself of that, right? So, whether you get a Lego merry-go-round or a picture of a merry-go-round or just,

that merry-go-round... Oh, this is, I like this. I like sentimental things. Right? The merry-go-round is just that merry-go-round. Oh, this is, I like this. I like sentimental things. Right? The merry-go-round is, it's your talisman. It's the thing that reminds you of why you get out of bed today. All you want to do in life is work tirelessly to create the merry-go-round. Right? And the thing is, is because you have vision, we're going to make this thing fly.

Yeah. Okay. So people go, huh? And you go, you, you, you, and fly. Yeah. Okay? So people go, huh? And you go, you, you, you, and you. Yeah. Okay? And now they're all coming in and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly.

It did not fly. It did not fly. It did not. It did not fly. So it actually failed if we're really honest with ourselves. But it didn't matter because it was the joy of the together and the fun, even with the vision that made it worth it. It was the exact same thing for the correspondence dinner. You'd never said at any point, and I freaking nailed it.

No, that's not the point. Right? The point wasn't the result. No. The point was the people coming together. The outcome is a bonus. I always say this. The outcome is a bonus. But now let me ask you this, because I love this for me. No, no, I appreciate it. So the last thing I'll ask you before we go is this then. For the person, and I think this is sort of what Christiana is saying, for those who are

not lucky enough to find themselves in that place, in that moment, some people can't be in a park, they can't choose the kids, they can't, do you get what I'm saying? What is the trick that you would recommend? And I mean this honestly because I go, I really go every- You're comparing your why, everybody has. Yes. So, like, so, and it doesn't have to be a happily childhood memory. So, I really go every... You're comparing your why, everybody has. Yes. So, like, so, and it doesn't have to be a happily childhood memory. So I did this with somebody a few years ago and I said, tell me an early childhood memory

and they said, I had a horrible childhood. Yes. I said, well, tell me another, another, any memory. And they said, I had a very, very alcoholic, abusive father and he would go on these drunken rampages and I remember hiding in the closet. And I wrapped my sister underneath me to protect her from my father. And you know, we're both crying as she's telling the story. She's a protector.

She wakes up every day to protect those who can't protect themselves. I can make myself bring myself to tears talking about it. Right? And she was struck by this pattern that she's at her natural best and she finds peace when she's able to offer protection to others from whatever it is. And so these patterns exist for everyone. They're not the same as yours. And whenever somebody hears that pattern, the result is goosebumps, some sort of emotional response. So all I ask you is for that person now, let's imagine a person who goes, Simon, I don't

have much in the way of my community. And this is because of a series of factors. There isn't a club, there isn't a that, there isn't, whatever. I work because this was the only job I could get, so I don't have the luxury of being recruited and I haven't been found by where I would like to be found. Okay? But I'm also looking for a piece of this, and my job is a soul-sucking experience where they want me here from the earliest time to the latest time, and I give all of my energy to this thing, and then when I get home, I have to look after my family, and this is a...

How do they find that? Or what are you saying to that person where they don't have the immediate luxury of, like, springing out, searching for it, going to another place, doing another thing. What is like a, because there's always something we can do. We're confusing struggle and joy. So I went to Kenya this year and we went into the Mara and you know, to the poor neighborhoods

and we got to meet some remarkable, remarkable human beings. And I started to realize that we from the West come in, I mean, it's like your story. Yeah. You know, it's like, we have it so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have nothing, you live in a mud hut, how can you be happy? You know, I'll show you happiness, come look at my house with all my stuff, right? And all they do is smile. And you look at the children and say, they have nothing, they have no toys, and they've

got a tire and a stick and they're laughing. And there's data on this that children that have more toys actually don't have as good imaginations. Yes, he's got a tire and a stick and he's got an active imagination. And those kids, those boys and girls, all they do is smile and play. And I met these remarkable people who absolutely their life is difficult. And the walking four hours to sell. It is absolutely a life of hardship, but they are happy and they have joy in life and they look after each other. And it's everything you you said when somebody needs a house, we help them build a house and the sense of community they have and it made me

realize that we in the West are addicted to money and we look at other people who don't have our addiction and we feel sorry for them because they don't have our high. Like it's a heroin addict feeling sorry for all the people who don't have a heroin high. And they're looking at us going, you're a heroin addict. Yeah. But it feels so good to be on heroin, right? And that's us in the West. We're all so intoxicated with what the money feels like. We've forgotten about community.

We've forgotten about sacrifice. We've forgotten about giving. We've forgotten about helping. We've forgotten about helping, we've forgotten about imagination. And I went in thinking, what can I give? And I came out saying, what must I learn? I love that. But again, I'm just going to push you on this because I need a tip. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because I agree with all of that. But this is why I think Christiana and our friends, because I understand a lot of what she's saying, honestly,

like innately. So I'm saying now that people are in this situation, what's like a hack? Because there are some people who literally, they can't find the community because there is no community. They don't have the people around them. They live in a different country, maybe. Maybe their family doesn't even talk to them. Is there like a, just like a little hack or something that can move you towards that. Yes, yes. And the answer is service. Oh, damn. I have a friend who was struggling.

She knows what I do. And she came to me and said, I need your help. I said, okay. So we got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes and she told me what she was going through and her marriage is falling apart and her career was going the right way and her kids were driving her crazy and just, she wasn't having a good time. And every Wednesday I would give her some, some counsel, some advice and she'd feel great and that lasts for about two days and then she'd go back and then she'd come back next

Wednesday and she'd feel great and you see this pattern, this went on for months. And I finally sort of remembered my own work and I remembered, you know, sort of my own work in service and like I looked into Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, the 12-step program, the first step is admitting you have a problem and if you master 11 steps, but not the 12th, you're going to succumb to the disease, but if you master the 12th, you're going to, you're more likely to beat the disease. The 12th step is to help another alcoholic. Wow. It's service. That's the 12th step. So I said to her, I sort of, I did a little social experiment on us. I said, every week we get together and I help you.

And I'm realizing I need help too. I trust you more than anybody. You're my best friend. I love you. And I need coaching too. And it was being deadly serious. It wasn't a game. Like, and can we split our time? 45 for me, 45 for you. She said, absolutely. So the next week we got together and we spent 90 minutes talking about me. And she gave me advice and she gave me counsel. And the next week we got together and just by accident, it's not like we planned it this way, we spent 90 minutes talking about me. Within about two months, her life was back on track and she was golden. So what I recommend to people who are struggling with whatever it is, I can't find love, I

can't find happiness, I can't find a job, I can't find whatever it is I'm looking for, find someone who's struggling with the same thing and help them find the thing they're looking for. And by the way, it reinforces everything that we've been talking about this whole time, which is community is the thing. But when we're selfishly minded, we don't build community. Yeah. And if you look at all of those places that we have all visited that we love that have community, everything is about service. That's all it is. Well, I don't have the time, I don't have the energy. That's where the sacrifice comes from.

We find a way to find the energy to help you build your house, even though I got my own struggles. And the joy of giving time and energy, non-redeemable commodities, unlike money, that's a, you know, you make more money, to someone to see the benefit that they derive has an impact on human beings that is hard to calculate, a fulfillment that you get that is only, can only be described as joy. And the reason is because that is the biology of how we're designed. That

is Mother Nature's desperate attempt to get the species to survive. And we will only survive if we help each other. That's why it feels so good. And that's what purpose is. Purpose for me, the deepest meaning of purpose for me is it's the opportunity to serve those who serve others. Rupert Damn, you sound like my mom. No wonder she always says service. Okay, we, Christiana, are you going to do the thing? Christiana No, because I agree with him now. Rupert No, but you don't want to find your roundabouts?

We'll do it another time. We'll do it in private. Okay. No, that's fine. I was just asking. No, but I agree with that. We'll do it in private. The service stuff.

I think that's what it's about. That's a life well lived. Yep. Well, you see, as I said, I never know what's going to happen when I sit down with Simon Sinek, but at the end of it, there's something else that I discover, a new way to see like a paradigm, and I think everyone listening had the same experience. Simon Sinek, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.

Such a joy. Thank you. You've got to take me to those good companies. I'll take you. I thought you were thinking about Chobani, the founder of that yogurt company. Yeah. I haven't met him yet, but they have a great reputation. I can take you.

If you really want to see some cool stuff, we can take you to see some cool stuff. Thank you. If you really want to see some cool stuff, we can take you to see some cool stuff. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?