What Now? with Trevor Noah - Wringing in the New Year [VIDEO]

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Trevor is home in South Africa. He and his good friends Anele Mdoda and Sizwe Dhlomo have a spirited conversation about the big issues that worry them as we hurtle into 2025. They discuss whether the global experiment is failing, revolution as a form of positive societal connection, and how external forces shape us and our children. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to What Now? Another episode of the podcast where this time I'm in South Africa. And if you've listened to enough of the podcast you'll know that when I'm in South Africa that means I'm with my people. And when I'm with my people we create different episodes. On one of the first ones I did I did for my 40th birthday was Anil M. Doda, a good friend of mine. She's a broadcaster, she is an executive producer, an all-around media mogul and most importantly a super mom and My other friend sees with Lomo. He's a TV presenter a radio host Business person and economics. I think he has a degree in something. He studies a lot. Whatever the point is

He's a friend and we're gonna be chatting together Disclaimer for everyone who listens these these are South Africans, I'm including myself, so we're going to talk like South Africans. And yeah, whatever happens happens because when my friends and I do a podcast, we try and make it as informal as possible. So if you're looking for like the dictionary definition of like a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place, scroll to the next one in your feed now and enjoy that. But if you're looking for like an honest get together of three human beings who love, respect and fight with each other, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to What Now?

This is What Now with Trevor Noah One two three four I declare a thumb war one two three This sounds great we hearing nothing even put something is yeah you your face when bitch who do you think I am? oh man you look at me like yeah this is who I am oh that is so funny bitch who do you think I am? so welcome guys happy new year happy new year

can you still say happy new year? yeah dude of course what do you mean? until okay what's your time what's your cutoff i mean you know valentine depends on where i know you it also depends on where i know you yeah so with you guys it's like okay you're pushing it now but so we are at the cusp yeah all right people you close to you should have said happy new year and the first of jan otherwise not close i've never thought of like a scale like a gradient for when you can say yeah you you you're truly a math guy for everything cesar thought of like a scale like a gradient for Yeah, you you you truly a math guy for everything

She's just got like a graph for everything the x-axis is friendship time then the y-axis is but remember She's I didn't have friends. He's got cousins. We are the first friends in life Please let's remember Yeah, man stranger what do you mean stranger I guess we said your friend you should have said Okay, all right, all right at least you on form we're in the mix I think differently about the conversations we're gonna have because I enjoy delving into your minds as friends, but also as problem solvers. And then I find sometimes when we have these conversations, like the last one we did on the podcast, people were just like, Oh yeah, that was an interesting conversation and you guys are friendship. And what I realized is friendship is almost the cooking apparatus that we use to figure things

out. Does that make sense? I get you. Because everyone can have a conversation, but I find when you have a conversation with your people, there are extra ingredients and extra tools that you have, namely your friendship, that define some of the conversation that you can't get with a stranger. I think it's good to have a conversation with your friends because we can say, ah, don't say that one in public.

Keep that one here. Wait, don't say that one in public. Wait, do you think that's still a thing? Yes. You guys do to us. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. But I, and this is an honest question. Yeah. In fact, this is a great question to kick us off because the conversation I wanted to have with you was what are you worried about going into the new year moving forward? Right? Because a lot of people have like a positive outlook. Yeah. But I'll start with that funny enough. Mm-hmm. Do you think cancelling is still a thing?

I think it's finished. I think the attempt to cancel is still there. And the fact that there could be an attempt to cancel you means that you could still be cancelled. Because you could be ducking and diving and catch one stray that does cancel you. So cancelling is still a thing. This is why it is important to ask your friends first. They call them WhatsApp conversations. You know, sometimes you'll tweet something, put it on X,

or you'll put it on Instagram and someone will be like, hey, hey, hey, first time with your friends with that one. Test that out. Yeah, I think it's definitely still a thing. I don't know. Because guys, if you lose 10% of your income, it's still 10% of your income that you've lost.

Oh. Do you know what I'm saying? You, so you're looking at even like micro cancellations. Yes. You're looking at like, yeah, erosion cancellations. Yes, like, you know. I was just talking about like, your cancelled. It feels like it's finished.

Like, it feels like we were at a peak. So here's the thing, if I'm using Anel as departure points, right. Then I don't necessarily want to take it to cancellation and loss of income. I will just look at it as just how humans interact. And the first thing is some people don't know who they are. That's the first thing. Okay. Then other people know who they are, but they're uncomfortable with who they are. That's the first thing. Okay. Then other people know who they are,

but they're uncomfortable with who they are. Okay. Oh damn. So now when you have a conversation, there are certain things that they want to hold back specifically when they're with strangers because they don't want the strangers to gain insights to the part that they're uncomfortable with. Like their racism or xenophobia. All of that. Yeah. Okay. And it could be anything. Maybe you're a freak and you're just like, uh too much. Okay. Now your friends should know you're a freak. Now your friends already know. Like at least one of your friends. There's nothing here that I can say that can shock you guys. Yeah at least one of your friends in the event that you die in a dodgy place. Yeah. One of us must be like yeah well. Yeah so now. I knew they went there. Exactly. I knew he frequented. So now we have those conversations then you go okay

okay okay turn it back a little bit and again it's not because you fear being canceled it's just again there are certain things that are just appropriate and others that are inappropriate that's all it is. Things that are appropriate to end public and things that are inappropriate. Yes you get like inner thoughts and outer thoughts. Yes, I agree with that. I like how you said this like you studied it in a textbook. It most likely did come from a textbook.

You're so robotic in your thinking. Yeah, no, that's what I mean. But you're so robotic in your thinking that it really sounds like literally the way you said that. There are inner thoughts and there are outer thoughts. Humans only do inner thoughts inside. He's been AI. You've been AI the whole time.

You've been AI. You've been AI the whole time. You really have. All right. So why don't we go around? We'll first I want the high level of what you what you're worried about for the year, you know, as we go into the future. And by the way, it's not even just for the year. It's rather what you're most concerned about at the beginning of the year that you think

maybe a thing because you know, like every year has a different feeling. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I have two. Do you want me to give you the a different feeling. Yeah, yeah. Right? So I have two. Do you want me to give you the two now? Or is it one round around and then one? Give us the two now. And then I want to hear Cesar's and then I'll give you mine. And then we'll see where we can get off.

The first one is my son's turning 10 this year. And he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models and who to mimic himself on. He's going to look externally. And this wasn't something that was, you know, on top of my mind until we went on holiday and he made a friend, a friend with a discipline problem that by the end of the holiday, I had to say to him, give me your phone. Did you add this boy's number?

I said, delete him, block him. We are not going to be friends with him type of thing. And then it had me thinking that, you know, we had a point now where I just have to make sure that his self-esteem is so high and his confidence is so unshakable that things like that don't impress him. He has to remember how he was raised at home. I love this. Don't say more on it.

Okay. So the problem, we got the problem. This is all the worry. Yes. All right. What's your second worry? Last year we had a Christmas party, right? And everybody had to stand up and say what they're grateful for. Yes.

Obviously people are grateful for work and good relationships and being financially sound. Somebody stood up and said that he is grateful for health. Out of 60 people, he's the only one who said that. And it got a lot of us thinking that, you know, we're at a place where anything could be something. Like right now, I have an issue with my shoulder. And I'm so scared to go and check it out. Because I'm so scared they're gonna say something like, oh, you've got six months. I'm like, no, I've got things to do. I can't have six months. And I promise you, my health is something that is just starting to appear in my list of

things that I worry about a lot more than it did because sooner or later, you know, you have to come to terms that you're not immortal. You're not going to be around here for long, you know? Damn, these are very... Okay, these are existential worries in different ways. Cease, what are you worried about? So this year per se, not too much. Last year I was worried about maybe the possibility of World War III. I don't think that's gonna happen now.

Oh, so now it's ended for you? Yeah, it's not gonna happen now. Wow. These guys fumbled. They fubar'd the back. What? They fumbled the World War III? They fumbled the opportunity to start World War 3.

Is this Ukraine and Russia? Somebody say it like that. No, all of them. This guy just says Israel, the US. They fumbled the opportunity to start World War 3. They fubo'ed the bank. Damn. Okay, so I'm heavy now. So you're no longer worried about World War 3.

I mean, that's a great way to start. But in the short to midterm, I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in. You've got kids? In theory. Okay. All right. Guys, you never know. Your friends can now like announce things. And it's more to what Anil was talking about as well, right?

Because you can do everything in your power to protect your children and those that you love within the ambit of your circle, but then they need to exist within a community, right? And when they go out, amen, I'm seeing that we're just getting too liberal right now. And some of those things are going to come back to bite us. Okay. I like this. All right, great. So Anelis Wari is your son is now at an age where he's looking externally for all models.

Second thing you worried about is you're at an age where anything internal is something. Okay. He's no longer worried about World War III, Hugh, but worried about the world that his children will live in because now there'll be a world. So now you've got different problems. Okay, cool. The thing I'm worried about, maybe it touches a little bit on what you're saying, but I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing. What's the global experiment?

So I think for a long time, we were seduced by this idea that the whole world could come together as one. And I think a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. Okay. Do you know what I mean? We've always traded, don't get me wrong. We've always traded, but a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. So like the Euro Union, you know, it's like, ah, and then Bricks, Brazil,

Russia, India, China, South Africa. It's like, ah, these blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some point was like, we don't have a border, you know, if you are European, you can go everywhere in Europe Yeah, yeah, I think that that is starting to fail because Yeah, I don't think we thought far ahead enough I don't know if we you know crossed all the t's and dot's because we also never did it Did you always believe in it? I was just told it I was too young to like believe or not believe I believed in it

Oh, you did believe in it but I'll tell you, I don't think this is anything new. If anything, I just think we need more perspective. Because if you go into history and just look at how each civilization has a lifespan, it usually ends like this. Yeah, but that's what I'm, you're just now talking about my worry. Yes.

And you just said you don't have to worry. Yeah, you don't. No. Because listen, so here's what I mean. It's not about me. You just said to me. Like all of us end individually. Let me tell you what you just did right now.

This is what Sizwe did. I was on a plane and I said, I'm a little bit worried that this plane feels like it's gonna go down. And Sizwe said, well said well if you look statistically most planes crash around this age, so you're right, but you don't have to worry You literally explain let me finish. All right, go you're 100% correct So all civilizations do come to an end, but it has to be that way so that a new civilization may begin. Yes, right You just have the kind of perspective now at your age, or you 40, 41, where you've seen things go from where they were to where they are.

Okay. Right? But it's not to say the world's going to end tomorrow. No, I'm not, I don't even think that. But you're a hundred percent correct. Things are deteriorating at a rapid rate. All right. So which one do we start with?

Which worry do we want to handle for? I'll actually, I actually would love to start with your son. Anel's one. Yeah, I like it. No, okay. Because we want to handle for? I'll actually, I actually would love to start with your son. No, okay. Cause we've been there. Yes. That one, so we can give you one word. So before I say anything on it, take me through a little bit about how you feel like as a mom of a son, 10 years old.

Like, I understand you saying you worry that he's now going to get external influences, but why is that a worry and not like necessarily a joy? Oh, because I, they already have been external influences, right? Just even you two as an example to the relationship that you guys have with Alaka. It is bordering on an uncle, on father figure and all of that, right? And so I think it's the older people because I get to choose them. You must remember that. Oh, curation. For a very long time because I get to choose them. You must remember that. Oh, curation.

For a very long time, I get to choose who is around him. I'm honored that you chose me. I thought I was just like defaulted in, but I'm glad you chose me. Thank you. Yeah. And now with that is that he, you know, also he can't control who is going to meet type of thing. So granted, yes, somebody may spark his interest and it'll be in a good way, but along the line, it's going to be in a bad way. And I just want

that he's to know that he's able to decipher and decide for himself that, ooh, you know, this one is, this one is not the one. So tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid and how did you know the kid was bad? And why do you think Alake was unable to discern between the good and the bad of the kid? I prefer a kid was outright rude. Then I'm like, Oh, is that it? You know, I'm like, Okay, kid, let's square up. But this one, it was just like slight discipline issues where if we say, Hey, guys, let's all

go. We're going now. Yeah, he'll stay in the pool. Almost like looking at me to see, are you going to come in the pool type of thing. Sizing you up. Yeah. Sizing. Yeah.

Constantly sizing me up. But then I suppose that's the relationship that he has with his parents, you know, where he's constantly pushing the boundaries. Can I just ask, how old was he? Same age as I like. They're actually seven days apart. They discovered this. Oh, we're best friends, you know, seven days apart.

I'm born this day, he's born that day. So I'm like, oh, okay. So wait, you said get out of the pool. Yeah. He then looked at you. Yeah, like. And then what did you say? I said, I said, get out of the pool.

You know, and he kind of like waddled around a little bit as well. Yeah, because I'm trying to picture it's pretty gangster for somebody to be waiting and challenging you. And continue looking you in the eyes. So he doesn't respond? No, he doesn't respond. Maintaining eye contact. That's a G. That's a G right there.

This is what I'm saying is that come out and say we're fighting so I know which arsenal to activate. So now when you're doing this. That's funny. Oh boy, that's funny. Oh boy that's funny. And then, so now I take like a few, because I was also in the pool. Oh were you in the pool? No, I was swimming with him and then I got out.

So it's also a case of, kid please understand I'm not too lazy to jump back in here. I will come and fetch you type of thing. Right? And now, now I'm looking at it, I like it. And he's almost like, he's at the step of the pool. His, his friend is inside the water and his mother's outside. So it was, it was a moment where he was deciding. It was like. The psychological tug of war.

Yes. Would he, you know. Does he want to be good or does he want to be cool? Exactly. You know, so now, so that's how it's like, okay. So it was a few of those things. Maybe we're in the's how I was like, okay, so it was a few of those things. Maybe we're in the room, we're like, okay, we're going for dinner now. Everybody's ready, this kid, I'm like, hey, let's go, you know, 10 minutes. Now we're standing outside, even my

partner's like, wait, wait, but now our child is standing with us. Now we're waiting for a stranger child, you know, because we just met you. If I may ask, so what heritage is this child? Is this a? Same as I like it. Everything, guys, when I say everything was identical. If I may ask, so what heritage is this child? Is this a... Same as I like it. Everything. Guys, when I say everything was identical. Oh wow, okay, so this is interesting. So you didn't even have like a little African swag you could pull out just a little something.

No, no, no, not at all. Wow. Not at all. This is actually more dynamic and interesting. I was picturing a white kid and I was like, no, this sounds normal. This is a black kid. Oh wow. Yeah.

When you think about it, Anelie's fear, your fear and my fear are the same fear. Right me through that. So to kind of like break it down in a nutshell, you just got to ask yourself, are you comfortable with the world raising your child? If you were to set your child up into the wild and the wilderness, which is, yeah. Are you comfortable with the sort of person that come back as? You see, that's why I was... Which speaks to your question and kind of speaks to my fear as well.

That's why I was saying that, you know, the job now is to make him so confident and have high self-esteem and understand who he is, that he doesn't have to be taken by those things. But the truth of the matter is, at that age,, because remember we pre-teen now, we're going into 10. Yeah, at that age you are questioning a lot of things. Yes, you know what you were taught, but there are other lessons coming from the outside and they're not always going to be good. So I don't, I'll probably butcher some of it. I'm bad with remembering numbers, but there was a child psychologist who once told me for boys

and girls are slightly different, but I believe from like zero to two or three, it's all mom. It's just all mom. And then I think from like three to like seven, 10, and it changes for boys and girls, it's mom and dad in terms of like just like parental household vibe. But then to your point, they say for boys specifically, once they hit like 10, 11, 12, somewhere there, it's all about uncle as they call it. They say it's all about other men or male figures outside the household. Could be a coach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Could be a head boy. Who just like, they're the ones who now. Captain of the football team. Yeah, exactly, exactly. The numbers are actually zero to seven is mom, seven to 14 is dad or uncle. And then 14 to 21 is external. But to fourteen is dad or uncle, and then fourteen to twenty-one is external. But who's external? You gave us such specific ones for the first two.

No, but you must remember that because kids are growing up at a rapid pace as well, for me, and this is not scientific, whatever, I just think that at ten now, we are already external. Because also he is going out a lot more than a normal child would have gone out as a 10 year old 20, 30 years ago. Is there a part of you that wonders if your mom Tai Chi has been enough? Yeah, there is. The fact that he questions it, because you must remember some people just will go along with it immediately.

Let's do this, we go. I can see the thought process in Alaka's mind when he goes, and then he goes, and then he Because you must remember, some people just will go along with it immediately. Yeah, yeah. Let's do this. We go, I can see the thought process in Alaka's mind when he goes, and then like, you know, I can see it. I can see it. But also, you know, I've been very careful in, because I don't want my child to be scared of me at all. I don't want that.

Too late. Ha ha. No, I'm joking. That's my idea. Right at all. I don't want that. I want Yes carry on so glad that entertain I don't want my child to be scared of me, but I do want him to know that this is the line and this is the line, right? And to respect and you know, to respect me and just to respect other people and also to respect somebody's decision that they're not going to go with. Like, you know what? I respect that you want to do this, but I am not going to do that. And that's frankly, really

all I want. So now did you explain to Alake who called this anonymous kid X, why X's behavior is not acceptable in this household? Yes. Did he pick it up though? Yes he did. Oh so he saw this happening? Yes and as we're walking back to our room he was walking so far ahead because he knew he knew that we want to have, you know, the chat with him. But then I did the most gangster thing, right? I didn't say anything. Because I could see he was like, it was chewing him. I didn't say anything.

And I just asked and I said, your guy's behavior at the restaurant was really not what we like about you. And what we've taught you. He's like, no, I understand. And then he quickly named exactly what he'd done. What? This is child X. No, this is I like. Oh, this is I like.

Yeah. OK, OK. And he quickly like, but then because we're asking him, because there was a point where they weren't within us seeing what they were doing. But then they came back and they just like disheveled and wet. Like they were playing with water, something, type of thing. Yeah.

But he so he explains what happened. I'm not buying the story, but explains what happened to my partner. My partner's buying this. I don't know if he was buying it, whatever. Guy to guy as well. They had like a little man or a man and then I was like, actually you handle it. Leave me out of it. Fine.

Go to bed. Three in the morning. I wake up. Because I want him to tell me the story again as he's just woken up. Going to his room. Going to his room. This is on a holiday bro. Put the lights on everything. The lights on even. No but he doesn't wake up because the lights are on but I just want that when I do wake him up. The lights are on. Yeah the lights are on so I can see his immediate reaction when I ask him just give me that story again run it by me again because I didn't quite catch it. I just want to rewind to the point when you said, I don't want my son to be scared of me.

Bruh, we had a resort. We had a resort. And this drill sergeant is turning on the lights at three. To interrogate you. Bruh. To interrogate you. I switch on the lights, and then I get into bed with him, and then I nudge him. I'm like, hey, Papa, wake up.

If you wake up, he's like, ooh, it's the time for us to go already. I'm like, no, no, just quickly. I didn't quite hear that story. Wow, I up. He wakes up, he's like, ooh, it's the time for us to go already? I'm like, no, no, just quickly. I didn't quite hear that story. Wow, I know that, wow. Run it by me again. And then he ran, he said it, and I was comfortable with the answer. And then I was like, but you do understand

that this is not behavior that we are accustomed to. He's like, no, I get it, and I know that it was wrong. And this is why I was apologizing. And I'm like, okay, cool. I just wanted to know that the story was the story and there wasn't anything else that I need to address and I said to him because you know that some kids don't come kids don't come from the same backgrounds and from the same homes yeah but thing in other houses they leave the lights off and they let you

sleep until the morning that's how other houses do it words but in this house Wow you know so yeah you but also when I did that, because then I got back and then my partner's like, is everything fine? I'm like, yeah, it's fine. And then like, then when I woke up in the morning and I told you, he was like, no, no ways. And I'm like, yeah. And I said to him, you know what, I've never been a mother to a 10 year old before.

So I'm also winging it. Yeah, that's true. I'm also winging it much like he's never been a 10 year old before. So I'm also winging it. Yeah, that's true. I'm also winging it. Much like he's never been a 10 year old before and with all these emotions and everything that's going on with him. So we're just going to have to figure each other out. And I have to like negotiate with a 10 year old terrorist essentially. And just hope that their logic coincides with yours. You know, I don't know if I ever told you the story. So Isaac, my youngest brother, right?

Him and the middle brother were staying with me in LA and they'd come to visit me and it was this whole thing and we're there for like Christmas. And they now got into an age where they're big enough that I have to negotiate with them, but they're still young enough that they do crazy shit. Right? So one day we're all having, we're having dinner together.

We order food and then we, but we plate it. I was like, cause I want them to feel civilized. You know what I mean? Cause I was like, I'm also the person who eats out the box, but I want, let's do like a family thing. Let's put, take the food out of the, out of the box and put it on a plate. Like we cooked it. Cool.

So we all eat, we all, we put things together. Everything's great. We're done. And when we're done, it's time to clean up. And I say, guys, help me. Let's take everything to the kitchen. And I take like one bowl, one glass. My brothers stack everything.

They stack, stack, stack, stack, stack everything. I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're taking it to the, to the kitchen. I was like, guys, guys, guys, take one thing at a time. You can come back. My other brother's like, he's like, ah, but I can do this. I got this. I was like guys guys guys take one thing at a time. My other brother's like he's like yeah but I can do this I got this. I was like hey whoa whoa it's not about whether you've got this. Take one thing at a time. You're stacking like everything you know what I mean? He's like yeah but I'll be fine. I was like no no no no you think you'll be

fine until you're not fine. Please just take one thing at a time. He's like okay so I go to the kitchen with the one thing and now you know we're doing that thing where we're crossing. So one person goes to the table, other person goes to the table. As I'm at the table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting, I hear smash on the other side of the house, glass shattering. And you know, you know what it's not even like, I'm like, oh, is there a break in? I know exactly what glass that was. So go to the kitchen. I'm like, yo, bro, what happened? Oh yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like, oh, is there a break in? I know exactly what class that was. So go to the kitchen and like, yo bro, what happened? Oh yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like, the glass didn't just drop the glass drop because you took more

things than I told you to, then he's like, oh yeah, my bad. Then I'm like, no, not your bad. Not your bad. I told you the thing. So now we're having this like, you know, and he's not even fighting. He's being like very polite and everything. And so now the youngest is like running with the stuff. So he's doing one and one, but he's sprinting back and forth.

So I'm like, okay, no running. So many rules, Trevor. This is what he says. He's like, geez, bro. He's like, so many rules. I'm like, yes, these are the rules for how you make sure that the stuff in your kitchen stays around. Right? And also you don't hurt yourself.

You see? So he's running. Guys, at some point I go, yo, I said, walk slowly, take the things one by one. He's like, yo, but I run all the time. I'll be good. I go yo I said walk slowly take the things one by one don't he's like yeah but I run all the time I'll be good I was like yo just take the things one he's like but why do I have to do it yo and I'll never forget this in that moment he's like why do I have to and I was like because I said so and you know when like every parent fleshed in for I was like ah ah I have become death became Raven but did he accept that no he didn't but I've always said my my my youngest brother's probably the smartest person we've ever had in our family and the

most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it. He did what I said. And he came back, maybe like 10 minutes later. You know, now there was like a weird feeling in the house. But he came back to me and he said, he said, Hey, Trev, he said, um, I just wanted to apologize for what happened. I didn't mean to offend you. I was like, yeah, I get it. I'm sorry too, you know? And he says, but here's the thing.

He's like, the reason I keep asking you why, when you tell me to do things, it's not because I want to undermine who you are as a person, he's like, it's because I don't understand why you're doing things the way you do them. So if I just do them the way you do them, I never really believe in it. I'm just doing it because I've learned it as a rote identity. He's like, but if I actually learn why you do it the way you do, then maybe I can adopt it as my own. And then if I'm challenged by somebody or something one day, I'll know why I do it.

So the reason I ask you why is not because I'm challenging you as my big brother, it's just because I really want to understand why you actually do it. Cause I don't want wanna be a robot. I wanna be a human being who believes in my actions. So, you know what it made me realize is like, I realized that every parent and every adult figure in a child's life will have that frustration.

You are bound to be frustrated because you are proposing every idea through the lens of logic and experience. But your kids, rightfully I think in many ways, are also here to test what those boundaries are. If every child, even us, think of us, the three of us sitting here and everyone who's listening, if you did everything the way your parents did it, half the time you wouldn't be where you are. You wouldn't have discovered a new way to work, a new type of job, a new

career, a new country, a new language, a new sports, a new religion, a new style of dressing. A new relationship. Yeah. Like you literally have to break what they've taught you to make something new. And the difficulty, as you say, is we're all winging it. We don't know what will or won't work. It's just in these moments where you go look when we say get out of the pool, get out of the pool, but it's a tough one

because it's like do you have a... because I've never had a friend who's a mom. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a friend friend. Thanks Drift. No. I'm also like damn Nick, this is a way to break up with a friend. Thanks, Drift. No, I'm also like, damn, this is a way to break up with a friend. No, what I'm saying is, I've never been in the position where I can say this to you and ask you honestly, like, do you have a, it's not like you can have a fixed number, but do you have a number of how much you're willing to tolerate his boundary pushing because you think it might be what creates something bigger and more beautiful than you've ever considered. Definitely, but the thing that we parents are doing now is we're very willing to question the school that he's at because there's too much writing and the kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him to a school that just does robotics and everything is computerized.

It's all sporting, right? Oh, my child is so good at this. Maybe I should take him out of the school because he's gonna play for the Springboks. So he's gonna play for the Proteas and all of that. But I think when it comes to, you know, just discipline and emotion and all of that, as parents, we're very much holding on to, you know, what you believe at that moment in time.

It's very difficult. And I tried very hard with my son where I'm like, okay, level with me, where I'm like, okay, live with me. Talk to me, you know, explain to me what was your thinking when you were doing that. Yeah, yeah. Right? So that I can understand because like you said, I'm 40 and he's 10 and we really, we different times, right? You know, different times, different ways of parenting as well. And I didn't have that with my mom or my dad. It was what they say. Sure. You know, that's the rule. That was the rule. It's also because it's like I'm paying for the house. I'm paying for the... So, you know, as long as you live under

this household, under this roof, you are going to, you know, type of thing. And I don't want that with the house. You know, simple things as well. Like people ask me, why do you knock when you go into your son's room? You know, it's your house. I'm like, yes, but it's his room. Did you knock at 3 a.m.? You didn't. That was a surprise. He was sleeping. And also that's a hotel. That's his room. Oh, nice. Nice. I see. You know when law enforcement finds all these loopholes, oh, we didn't need a search warrant because it wasn't your home. You know, the visit was sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism, right? Yeah. Even Kisu City.

So why do you knock? And I'm like, because I want him to knock when he's coming into my room. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to model the behaviors. And here's the thing is that I want to show you that I respect your privacy because everybody else in the world must also respect your privacy. Oh damn.

Because if I, how can I say I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy, but everybody else must respect your privacy type of thing. Okay. So I basically treat him the way I want the world to treat him so that he can know, he's like, no, back at home, this is how I'm treated. And you're not treating me the way that I'm treated at home where I'm loved. So this is not going to fly. And actually that's all you want your kids to be about. We're gonna continue

this conversation right after this short break. Did you ever have a bad influence? Because I know you weren't the bad influence. Yeah so bad influences are everywhere. No, but I'm saying as a kid, like, did you have a friend where they were like your bad influence? Cause I was- The bad influence. In many ways, yes, I will say. But I also think I had many friends.

I think we were renegades together, to be honest. Not in my formative years, no. No, you didn't? No. Wow. Because majority of the people that were around. No, you didn't? No. Wow. Because majority of the people that were around me were handpicked by my parents. Oh, we come back to the cousins.

Exactly, even my friends, it was really because my parents are friends with these people and then they'd be like, we're going to so-and-so's house and then hey, okay, Dumis was my friend. I didn't, like, it's not like I sort out Dumis to be my friend, it didn't work like that. But here's my thinking and the approach.

And I obviously, I think you're doing it well. I think all you can do, look at it like coding. You just introduce the fundamentals, right? To your child. And then tell them- To my computer coding. Yes. Okay.

But even with human beings, because essentially it is a system anyway. Cause we robots. Cause we're AI. Yeah. Aren't we all? Aren't we all?. Because we robots. Because we are AI. Aren't we all? Aren't we all? So you introduce these fundamentals?

I agree with you. This program is tripping. I'll delete. Right. So once you've got the fundamentals in place and they understand them, and obviously you guys are in agreement with the fundamentals, then you can go to like intermediate programming and tell them, okay, well, now with these fundamentals that you fully understand, what do you think the right thing to do in this situation is?

And then he will tell you, and then you go, well, actually that is the wrong things to do, I like it because if you do that, for example, Isaac, I know you used to running, but there's a possibility you may slip and you carry a glass and you will get impaled by this glass. That's why it's rather safer for you to just walk, right? By running, yeah, you save a little bit of time, but with no rush. Then it's like, okay, cool. You're very logical. But that's how life is. What else? You used to sound like you've never been a child. No, but listen to me. Guys, I knew, let me tell you something. When I was opening the TV in the living room. Yes.

As in opening it like you wanna see what's inside. Yeah, when I was unscrewing the whole thing. Okay. Logically, I knew everything. I unscrewed the TV too, but I had logic for it. Okay. I wanted to see how the TV works. Oh, same with me.

And as a result, I was able to fix things at home. I was a guy, like dude, maybe by like eight, I was a handyman at home. And my dad understood I couldn't have been a handyman unless I broke my toy. But I'll tell you what, when things were wrong and I fixed it without him paying a cent, boy was he glad I broke that toy.

Okay. You see? So that is immediate. Yeah. You see what? Now here's the thing. Now that's funny. It comes back around to like, is there a reward on the other side? There's always a reward. I'm told I was a highly inquisitive child. I guess I still

am even as an adult. Yeah you are. And the thing with questions is you're just gathering data points. That's all you do. You gather data points and you're going to later use those data points that you collected and go, Oh, okay. Well, when I asked Auntie Anela this, she told me this, this, and that. So maybe I should go this way. There's a lot of things I never got to experience and still have no inkling. I don't even want to experience them, but I've learned major lessons from other people and their experience of those things. So when you now withhold those answers and you just you nip it in the bud by saying yes because I said so, you are starving

Isaac of the data points he needs not for him to be able to come up with the decision which will then obviously make sense to him. Yeah the wrong or the right. All right well if you need you know outside models real role models you let us know. No no I'm covered. You models. You let us know. No, no, I'm covered. You must, you must let us know. I mean, but Mina, I'm, I'm probably going to say even at this age, I will bring a little bit of bad influence, but always respectful. One thing my teachers always said, Trevor's very respectful, but he's very troublesome.

He's very disruptive in class, but very respectful and oftentimes does not apply himself, but very respectful. There was no disrespect in what I was doing. Do you know what I mean? No, no. Yes ma'am, no ma'am, yes ma'am, I was the one who put the firecracker in the toilet ma'am. Yes ma'am, that is correct ma'am. Why Trevor, why? Because we wanted to see what happens. The thing about being a child being inquisitive as well is that it could be on the bad side of things. Yes, that's what I see your worry as well. Yeah, because people always treat like being inquisitive like, oh such a wonderful thing. It's a great trait. He's so inquisitive, but if he's inquisitive as to what's going to happen if at age 9 he takes the car.

Yes. Right? That's not a good thing. I did that. Yeah. I thought about that. About what? Taking the call. Why. Right? That's not a good thing. I did that. Yeah. I thought about that. About what? Taking the car. Why didn't you do it?

So, our driveway was like a bit of an incline. So, when I was leaving, I would have been fine. But then when I was driving back, the car obviously would have had like hummed a little bit. And then I thought, what if my dad thinks the car's getting stolen and then he shoots me? Then I was like, I would rather not take this car.

The sentence would end like that. Me too. I didn't think the sentence would end like that. Yeah. I thought grounded, like grounded or get a... No, I thought, I thought, I thought, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? He could think the car's getting stolen and shoot me. Okay, but now we mustn't stick on this one,

because everybody's got a worry. Now we're going to spend the next hour discussing only my worries. But our worries are all the same. We solve your worries. This is interesting. Okay, so, okay, then let's, let's... But wait, she raised a very good point.

We just glossed over it. It actually is the answer. What? She spoke about his self-confidence, right, and belief in himself. Okay. that actually is the answer to everything Mm-hmm. And because if if I was I don't think it is but finish finish what you okay? It's answer to most things I'm not going everything if His self-confidence is strong enough, right?

peer pressure will never be an issue and We know for example that Iak is very smart already. He's super smart. So he knows what right and wrong is. What usually sways people from wrong is the external influence. If he's strong enough and believes in himself, he can say, Hey dude, I hear what you're saying, but that's not how ours raised, that's not how we roll. And so already he's kind of insulated from the external influences of the world.

It's not to say he'll never like go wrong, but he's unlikely to go as wrong as other people who are just amoebas and they go with the flow. A lot of people end up in trouble. They're like, yo dude, I don't even want to be here. I told you guys, let's not go there. Now you're sharing a cell. You see? So I hear what you're saying.

One caveat I'd like to throw into this and one counter argument is, if we live in a world where everyone completely believes in themselves, I think we have a little less social cohesion. We should never take for granted how powerful peer pressure is in society. So when you're on the road and you see that you could drive in the emergency lane and just get ahead of everyone, peer pressure is the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might be like, oh, the police, no, no, no, but beyond that, there's an element of knowing that every other road user is in some way, shape or form

going to be against you. And you're like, I'm not gonna do it. When you're standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else and you see that you could cut and you could get ahead, peer pressure is the only thing like stopping you from doing. You're not gonna get arrested. Do you get what I'm saying? I think there's a weird balance

and we don't know what the knobs perfectly are. But the world knows. It's interesting that you say that. We don't know what the balance is, but the world always fine tunes you. Okay, my argument is this, and this may sound a little anarchist, but it's not. But like, I don't believe we know and I don't think there is a right because I think every piece needs to exist. So like, on the one hand, you need like a renegade to be like a Steve Jobs, let's say. Where he goes, no, we're going to do this. And people are like, you can't do it.

And he's like, we're going to do it. And then he does it. And then now everyone's like, oh yeah, this is how it should have been. But then there's also some renegades who are like Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't suffer from peer pressure, I'm assuming. I don't think he was like, what are my friends going to say? He did his thing. He did his thing. He did his thing.

My friends wouldn't... Well, so here's the thing. So all I'm saying is, I believe that there isn't one fixed way or not way. I think a system will always like find entropy. It will always find a place where it exists for the best of what it is trying to do. But I think you can create a child or you think you can try your best to create a child who does not care about what anyone else says. And I think those types of people are assholes in the world as well, because

they don't care about what anyone else says. And then there are some people who care too much about what everyone else says. And then they are at the whims of the crowd. So Joe Biden's got a line, right? Joe Biden? Joe Biden, the rapper. I was like, wow, this guy's about to quote Joe Biden. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was like, damn, I don't think I've ever heard anyone quote Joe Biden. This is a rap line also, long before we did podcasts. And he speaks about mama raised me proper, the streets just molded me. The streets coded me, made me a better pedigree. Then he goes on to say things are complicated like Avril Lavigne said it'd be, but that's besides the point. Basically, when you go out into the world, the world will either affirm you or it will challenge you. Cool. Right? So with your fortitude, you go there and then they'll be like, no, my friend, that's not how this works. And very quickly, if you're a smart person, you will then learn, Oh, damn, I'm wrong about this.

However, yes, if you are correct about your ways, the world will affirm you. And then you'll see it's okay. This actually works. And that's how people end up rising to a certain point. So, okay. It's actually funny you say that. Cause I think that's, that's a perfect segue to my worry. funny you say that because I think that's a perfect segue to my worry.

I agree that the world will affirm you or challenge you. Right. But I don't think that that is based in absolute truths. So sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged based on the circumstance of the situation. Or what people can benefit from affirming your challenge. Exactly. Exactly. So now let's go to my worry.

The reason I say I think the global slash liberal slash whatever experiment has failed is because there was a time when many politicians around the world started to believe, and I'm sure there was another time when this happened with trading in general, but they said, you know what? We could be connecting the world in interesting and different ways. You know, you could, you could make something in China or you could make it in any country where it's developing really. And that means the country where they're selling it to, they can focus on different types of labor. They can be more specialized.

They can work in offices. They can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service. It might be more specialized. They can work in offices. They can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service. It might be something digital. And then the people who are using that, they might buy something else and they might, but we're all connected and then it's the circle of life. You know what I mean?

It's like this beautiful world where money's flowing from one place to the next. And now, and Cesar, you, you're the economics guy, so I'm sure you, you, you can speak to deeper than I can, but like, I feel like what happened was first and foremost, the money dammed up in a way that no one really predicted, so the money didn't move around the world. It didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam and all these places where the workers are making it, it very quickly left those places and went into bank accounts in certain parts of the world. The people working even at these companies

in those parts of the world, it doesn't matter how big these corporations are. But one of the things I find particularly interesting is how like we've accepted this as normal and maybe we won't for a while, where companies can hire people to help them make profits. Once they've achieved that profit, they can fire all of those people. And hire people for the next- To help them make more profits.

Right? So this is the second part of it, why I think it's failing. I think we were never fully prepared to communicate with everyone everywhere all the time without understanding the nuances and the complexities that come with everybody's understanding of the world. You know in the same way that we're worried about like what we say to aliens? When they arrive. Not even when they arrive. You've seen we've sent we've sent like things to space. Okay signals like. Yeah we've sent capsules and then they'll choose they go we've put some Mozart some Beethoven we've sent but there's also like crazy shit we've sent we've sent capsules and then they'll choose. They go, we've put some Mozart, some Beethoven. But there's also like crazy shit we've sent.

We've sent like a random like rock and roll song. That could sound like a war anthem. I don't know. Or maybe Mozart sounds like war to an alien. I don't know. Right? You really don't know. When you said we've sent crazy shit.

Really sophisticated fighters. The thing that came into my mind wasn't that. I was like, oh. No, but we've also sent like plants and seeds and we've tried to send what we think encapsulates the human race, is what we've done. Oh, that is a very, very risky thing. Exactly. Because what does encapsulate the human race?

That's exactly my point. Yeah. And so... Maybe each country should send something. Even then, and so now I'm saying social media as a whole, the whole connected idea of it, forget like actual social media. I just don't think we ever prepared for it. We never prepared for a message to cross borders and cultures in the way that it does.

It may connect us in moments, but I think it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought. And so I think that's, it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought. And so I think that's why I think the whole thing is falling apart. I think in South Africa, where we are at right now, I think we're going to see only more xenophobia. We're going to see more people not wanting immigrants to come into the country. And in many people's defense, by the way, not just in South Africa, in the US, in Europe, et cetera.

If we use the binary, we can be very quick to say these people are hateful. It's very easy to do that. Right. But the underlying issue is true in many places. But I think you've got a global view because you are a global person. Right. We can scale this down and realize that it's always been like that. It's just that now we are aware that it's happening everywhere else as well.

Let me take it back to South Africa. A person who was raised in the hood and a person who was raised in the rural areas, they are aliens to each other. Okay, so the hood versus the village essentially. Yes, versus the village, there we go. But then even in America, somebody was raised in the south, and I'm a southern bal. Do you know what I'm saying? As opposed to somebody who was raised in New York, those people are also quite alien. Okay. Yes. Right. And that's now that

is a country. I just feel that because you've been everywhere in the world, it is a lot more heightened for you that you think that. No, no, no. But this is what I mean. I mean that the experiment was, it felt like it was working for a moment. So here's the thing. I mean, I can't speak to the second part of your thought process because that's more sociology, but the first one, which is economics, that makes sense. And even if you look at any economic textbook, it really just, it dictates that things will be that way because capital by its very nature is monopolistic, right? Right.

There are four factors of production, we are told. We're told it's capital, labor, entrepreneurship, and then I suppose land. But really when you think about it, there's only one factor of production. It's capital. Because it's capital, you can buy the other three. Right. That's why the effect has been that money has always pulled back to money. Yes. Because once you've made the money,

you realize, okay, I no longer need the labor now. I can build AI and that will substitute the need for labor. Right? Okay, I no longer need entrepreneurship. I can go to India and hire a CEO. Okay, I no longer need, for example, land. Right? These are all the things. Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society. That's why it's called capitalistic. Right. I don't call it labor-listic. Or land-listic. I want to live in a land-listic country.

No, but so I agree with you. And what I'm saying though is this was an experiment. Remember, we're always conducting an experiment. Like you said with your son, you're winging it. We're also winging it. I think this is something we should always acknowledge as people. And I think not enough politicians do, and not enough leaders do.

They make it seem like we know. So I've seen people who talk about socialism, they know, people talk about communism, they know, people talk about capitalism, they know. But I'm like, guys, you don't know. We're all winging it with as much information as we have. We're gathering data points, as you say, right? So there was no communism until there was.

There was no socialism until there was. There was no communism until there was there was no socialism until there was no capitalism until there was right what I'm saying is This experiment that we're conducting now. I worry that it's failing But I worry that it's failing because the reason I worry about it failing is because of the ramifications on the other side So but that's our revolutions come. This is my point. That's the reset. Everything has a reset. You see this is my point. I don't like your tone when you say these things, Sizwe. You say very. No, no, no. But he says it in a very, your tone is positive. But the message you're giving is like, you're like, yes, well, that's a revolution.

Because that's what happens. That's a reset. And everyone's gonna die. Yes, but your tone, you must deliver in like, well, that's's a you are worried that you're living on the cusp yes completely yes mr. we but we not me yes all of us are I think mr. revolution no I want to be here for it no I don't want to be a word Trevor doesn't want to be here for revolution I mean I think in many parts we you want to be here for the revolution I don't want to be ever let me revolution. Let me tell you something about revolution. It's disruptive. And nobody knows what comes out on the other side.

You think I have power. A revolution completely disrupts power. You think, oh, but I'm of the people. Revolutions also squash the people. And the outcome of a revolution is not predictable, right? Wasn't COVID a revolution? No. But Trevor's right in that it's obviously, it depends what sort of person you are.

Right? It's better to be living in very calm times and steady times. Yes. But you learn a lot if you're living on the cusp, because that's where majority of the change takes place. I mean, this is true. Yeah. But one of-

If you look at us, we've gone, we literally went from analog to digital. That alone will blow many people's minds. Yes. Crazy. The things that we've seen we went from that recorders to CDs to cassette tapes to VHS yes to see. When I said that you know maybe I think we've lived the revolutions I think you guys think I'm assuming like the violent ones you know. No no no no no I just mean you mean a reset okay so you're saying I'm talking about a reset and not a revolution yes you're gonna have to then give me the difference between those a revolution you'll know that will be

spilled not necessarily that was built but you wouldn't be sitting here talking about covered as a revolution you'd know for a fact then give me an example of a revolution yes well but regimes change. Yes. Presidents. Okay, violent then. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. They can be peaceful. Like in 1994, South Africa had a revolution, but a peaceful revolution. More or less. More or less. No, okay. This is, so this is what I mean. I'll just throw them out at you and maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing. I'll just throw them out at you and maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing. Let's say in America, right? It was interesting to see how even amongst themselves, the Trump mega crowd is experiencing

like a fraying connection between the people. Yeah. In a microcosm. you look at the Trump party. I don't call it the Republican party, it's the Trump party. You would think within that world, everyone would just be like, yeah, we know what we're doing, we're doing it, right? Look at the thing that happened with Elon Musk

and the H1B1 visas. Elon Musk is rolling with Donald Trump. They're like, yeah, we know what we're doing. We're planning this new world order. Elon's like, hey man, I have a new best friend. I paid $250 million for him. So I want to hang out with him all the time. Trump is like, Trump needs his mom to come to me at three in the morning.

Trump is like, you're a bit of a loser. I wanted your money. Go away. That's cause you can see Trump knows cool and not cool. Like you saw when Trump was sitting with Obama. Ooh, say what you want. But Trump was like, Trump was like, this guy's cool. You could see he was like, he all those fancy things.

He was trying to make him laugh. He's like, yeah, yeah. And he was making him laugh. Trump was like, this guy's cool. I need this guy's approval. Exactly, because Trump knows cool. Say what you want about him. Say what you want about him.

That is funny. Say what you want about him. So when I look at the Elon Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly what I'm talking about is affecting everyone because Elon Musk and his people go, all right, now we know what we're doing. Trump fans and supporters are like, actually, no,

like Steve Bannon goes, no, no, no, hey, I actually don't like this agenda. Why are we hiring these people from India and from these places to come and work on these companies? Elon's like, cause we need them. Then Steve Bannon's like, no, we don't need them. We need them because we haven't created a world where Americans are the ones that are needed.'" Then the tech guys say, "'Yes, but like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk, they say,

yeah, but Americans are not trained enough and they're not smart enough.'" Then these guys are like, "'Oh, you're saying Americans are stupid. Is that what you're saying?' They're like, "'No.'" And then the other guy's like, "'Yes, I am saying that.'" Then he's like, why don't we train Americans? Then he's like, no, because it's, it's, it's not supposed to work like that. And then even within that little confine, you see the thing falling apart. The promise hasn't been delivered. Right.

Because white Americans were told stop your factory things. We got this. Don't worry. So what's going to happen is you're going to just move forward. Right. And your company, you're going to wear's going to happen is you're going to just move forward, right? And your company, you're going to wear a suit and tie and you're going to have a different job and you're going to get great money. Worked for a moment.

Then companies, as you say, capital does what capital does. Companies were like, we could actually make more money with less. And why are we paying American workers when we could be paying people from India or Bangladesh less? And even if they come into the country, we can force them to work a ton of hours because what are they going to say? No? And they'll be a lot more appreciative of the dollar.

Exactly, because they have a visa. Exactly. And now even within that tiny world, you see the experiment failing. And now there Steve Bannon comes and says, Elon Musk is a white South African who is racist and born from apartheid. We cannot allow him into the White House. Now people watching this are like, wait, Steve Bannon is saying this guy's racist.

No one knows what to do with it. But that's just one example. Then you look at South Africa and how South Africans are now going like, actually, actually, no, no, no, we're not trying to help Africa. No, no, we're just trying to do our own thing. Then you look at Europe, Europe's like, no, no, no, no, no, close, close here. Germany. They're like, Hey man, this whole immigrant thing actually, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not, we're not. Then you look at like banking, you look at hiring, look at AI itself.

We are on a fast track to people turning around and saying, wait a minute, if AI is doing every job, who's doing a job? And if nobody's doing a job, who's buying things? And if nobody's buying things, what are we doing? And this is why it's so interesting because all of it's actually just boils down to economics and living conditions. Everything you've just highlighted is not a problem. If people are comfortable, if we're all comfortable, I love AI because who wants to work?

Yes. Let AI work. If you're all comfortable and you're telling me you're going to bring in some Indian guy, hey, by all means, buddy, do the thing there. I'll suggest. Yeah, that's true. But you, okay. The problem is now when we starving, they were like, Hey man, these foreigners are taking our jobs. That's the problem. That is the problem.

Whereas if we were comfortable, we'd be like, Hey buddy, Hey, I got something here for you. You want to do this? Cause I don't want to do it. That's essentially the issue. And that's what I'm saying has failed. Yeah. I'm saying the thing that was sold to people was prosperity for all. That has not happened with it. South Africa, with it's the United States, with this part of Europe. It can never happen. Wait, you think it can't happen? Never. Prosperity for all? It can. No, it cannot. But it can. Cause this is what I want to say. Let me tell you why it can't happen? Never. Prosperity for all? It can. No, it cannot. No, but it can. Because this is what I want to say. You see how I can say this?

That even when we are, like you're saying, the Trump party, nothing of the kind, even when we're all for one thing and we have one ideal, we're still going to disagree within that. But not fundamentally. I think so. No, they argue, people are now disagreeing. I hear you. Look at South Africa.

Look at the ANC. Yes. Where we were all about one thing. Even when we get along, guys, even in a group of friends, They argue that people are now disagreeing. I hear you. Look at South Africa. Look at the ANC. Yes. Where we were all about one thing. So Anel is right. Even when we get along, guys, even in a group of friends, you know that WhatsApp group where there was nine of you and the next thing in that nine, six of you slipped to the side. Do you know what I'm saying?

That is human nature. So Anel is right. There will always be disagreements. What I'm saying is when things are okay, the disagreements are inconsequential. Yes. So they can never be prosperity for all because in order for people to prosper, there needs to be productivity and the productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now, what happens is you do get certain instances where there are more resources

than there are those that deplete the resources. What it means is the model seems like it's working for a lot longer, but it's really not. The model is always deteriorating. That's just the nature of the model. You could be living in the Garden of Eden, but the more you procreate, the more you're going to run out of fruit in that garden. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. This is where I disagree. I think a lot of the scarcity that we think is real in the world isn't real.

That's the first thing. And I think a lot of it is created by institutions and companies that need you to consume. So for instance, a simple example is your phone, right? Everyone has the new iPhone until Apple releases the next iPhone It is literally even the day before launch You have the latest iPhone and then one day later, you now have an old iPhone, right? So you're right. The issue is not scarcity. It's about the distribution of resources That's but that's why that's what the'm, so what I'm saying is I agree completely.

I'm saying we are, and we have been, and look, there may not be a perfect world for this, but I think there's also a lot of artificial scarcity and a lot of artificial distribution that has not. Like, okay. And it's at an all time high. Yeah, I agree with you. The perfect example is water. Guys, I don't understand how we live in a world where water is owned by companies and we are all gonna have to buy water from corporations. Guys, everywhere in the world.

I read that about LA that a couple owns over water in LA. It's a farming family, they own like water. You're like how do you own water? Who did you buy it from? But that's my point. Who owned it before you? But that's my point. Cause the water goes under my house as well. How come I can't stop the water and, do you see what I'm saying? So now, Cesar, I get what you're saying economically, but I'm saying that's why all of these things, I worry that we are going to hit too many at the same time. And that thing is going to be,

I don't know if it will be a revolution, but I think we are on track, unless there's some sort of correction somewhere. We are only on track for a like, mass ending correction type thing, revolution, whatever you want to call it. I cannot see another way. Well, luckily all of this has been thought of. Even the thing you just mentioned now about water going under your house. Yes. For example the Romans, because they came out with land ownership, they kind of, they basically had a definition of what land ownership is, right? It'll be I guess the square meters or whatever the measurements will be. Yeah. And then it will be everything on and above the ground belongs to you.

Everything below the ground that belongs to the state. Okay. That's for example, what our mining laws are based on here in South Africa. Right. So if the water is flowing on top of your ground, that's your water, but the underground water is not yours. Yes. But the problem is the state.

Now, is it fair? It's obviously not fair, but I hear you. Yes. But, and what is a state? A state is a collection of people. It's a fiction that we've all agreed to. So now the problem is when the state sell it to private people, where do we end up? In revolution. So, by the way, Cesar is not helping me at all, because he's affirming everything I'm saying. Imagine if we were doing that with Alakke.

But you know what he's saying? He's saying it was supposed to happen that way. But you guys also did that with me,. He was supposed to happen that way. But you guys also did that with me that it's supposed to happen. No, no, no, no. It's like Nas' second album. It was written. Yes. Thank you, Joe Biden. But here's what I remember.

What my original statement was. Yes. I'm worried that the experiment is failing because remember what we're also doing as humans is we're constantly trying to undermine the natural order of things. We do it with our health. Right. So back in the day, your shoulder, you would be gone. Now you may not be gone. Yeah.

Right. And I think this is something that's important to understand is that one of the main things that makes humans, humans is that we've challenged the very fundamental order and nature of life and the world. And we fight it under progression. Yeah, but we fight it. So we go, actually, maybe you shouldn't die of an infection. And then you go, actually- Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Remember the guy you interviewed that- Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So maybe you shouldn't die at all. Yeah. Right. So the reason I say I'm sad and I'm worried that the experiment is failing is because it was an experiment. People thought that if you put goods and services or if you say that things are going to be manufactured in poor countries, it's going to bring them up. And then that'll free up the developed countries to do different types of jobs and it'll bring them up. And then they will sell their ideas and it'll bring them up.

And there'll be this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop. And we will all raise, what is that? Rising tides raise all boats. That's what we thought. What we didn't know was some people have boats that have water pumps and they're taking a lot more water and the tides are not rising everything.

So now that's what I was saying is my worry. When my good friend, Cezue was kind enough to say, you see? This was a good episode. And I liked the fact that there's no solution. We just threw a bomb out there, we're like, bye. Here's your worries, niggas, bye. You're this guy. That's it, that's on you.

I actually see a very hopeful future for your story with your son. Of course. That's what I mean. So I go like, oh, you just have a problem or a worry about a potential problem, but I feel like there's many solves for the thing. Is there a living in the house? That's funny. So that's as a friend that, and then my friend has said to me, no, no, don't worry.

All your worries are correct and it's going to end. That's what he just did to me, no, no, don't worry. All your worries are correct. And it's going to end. That's what he just did to me. Because you must never be a doctor by the way, Sizwe. Actually, he needs to be a doctor. No, no, he would be the person who just walks in and says to you, you're out. Statistically speaking, you were going to die anyway. So, I mean, I don't even know why you want to do the surgery.

Save your money, spend time with your family. See, that's what he would be saying to you. No, you should not be a doctor. The shortest episodes of House ever. Just walk in. So, okay. Um, let's do Caesar's. So your concern is you worry that.

So generally speaking, um, as you correctly point out, the world is continually deteriorating and I feel like... Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying continually. Let me be on record of saying that. Well, I think we're in like cycles and I'm saying now... No, we are in cycles. Okay. But obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to decrease. Okay, okay. We haven't hit drop bottom yet. Okay, great. It's only going to stop deteriorating, it's going to hit drop bottom. Then we're going to need to rebuild. Okay, cool. Now, I worry that in the short term, because life is relatively short, right? To raise a kid in that environment is going to be very tumultuous.

And the tools that personally I had to navigate the world, I see those tools becoming more and more useless every day. Can you give us an example of those tools? I mean, just general things like, for example, bullying, a very simple example. Yeah. Right? there used to be a safe haven for bullying these days there is a bully yeah sorry sorry I feel like I'm mishearing you safe haven for people being bullied from being bullied yes oh okay I thought you were saying there was a safe even for bullying that's funny That's brandy. No really. Dude you're also like a weird thinker. You could be the kind of person who says that. Back in my day.

Protect all bullies. Yeah you were like back in my day bullies could find a place. Dude you're the kind of person who could say that. Look bullies do build character. Okay. But I don't think we need this. Okay sorry so you're saying. So you could get bullied.

What was the safe haven? So you could get bullied and then at 2.30 the bell would ring and you'd be like shoo. It's so great. Mom I'm going home. Yeah it ends. Now it follows you home. And then you'd be in your mom's car and you'd be like. What was the safe haven?

What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? What was the safe haven? could get bullied. So you could get bullied and then at 2.30 the bell would ring and you'd be like shoo that's so great mom I'm going home. Now it follows you home. And then you'd be in your mom's car and then be like mom you never believe it eh these guys are gonna beat me up and then you pissed up right in time and now the guys are beating you up in your mom's car and your mom's like why are you in your screen and they pummeling you. So that's just one simple example. Okay got it. And again it speaks to the thing of yours the interconnectedness because we didn't prepare And they pummeling you, you know what I mean? So that's just one simple example. Okay, got it.

And again, it speaks to the thing of yours, the interconnectedness, because we never- Yeah, we didn't prepare for all of this. 100%, 100%. And when you're a kid, you really don't have the broadened vision to know, which actually, what I can do, just turn off my phone. Yeah, I think as adults,

we also don't necessarily have that. It took me, I'm trying to think of when this changed, maybe somewhere pandemic-ish, somewhere. It took me a long time to realize, if I don't know it, if I don't even acknowledge, it's not even happening. I know it sounds like a weird thing. People are like, no, but people are saying things

about me online and I'm like, yeah, it's not really happening. Unless, you know what I think- Don't you feel like our youth kind of primed us for this though? In what way? Specifically like our youth in showbiz. Dude, we came out in a time where I guess the review would have been, hey, the ratings, the show sucks or whatever. Okay.

That's why when I see the kids that grew up now in the social media age, right? And I see how seriously they take social media. And how they crumble when someone does say something. I can understand it. Because for them, they were made by social media. And if you were made by social media, you feel like you can be destroyed by social media. OK. To channel my very wise younger brother,

he would argue that we and the youngest of our generation is experiencing that. He says they're not. He's like you guys, like Bane, he's almost like, ah, you merely are dropped. You merely are dropped on social media. I was forged in social media. Like, he goes, no, no, no, no.

You and your youngest think that. He says, our generation, we're so robust because we were built by that. He's like, we actually don't care. He says, we don't really care about the thing. And we don't, he even showed me like aesthetically. I disagree with him. No, what I'm saying, he showed me like aesthetically.

Go look at like Gen Z and Loa, look at their Instagram, their TikTok. It's not aesthetic like millennials and above. It's not, they're not trying to show you a perfect picture of avocado toast. No, they just wanna show you a vibe. They might even show you the crumbs. That's their picture.

And his argument is that we think of it as being something that is infinitely harder to tackle, but he's like, it is only the reality that they have, right? So he goes, I think your situation was worse. He's like, because- Well, we entered striving for perfection because we didn't know how this thing works. No, but not even, like he argues, he goes,

yeah, we get bullied online, but he's like, but you guys got bullied like physically and there wasn't really stuff you guys could do about it when it was happening physically. And then he goes, I can make friends online. I can look at a video on TikTok about how to be a boxer. But he argues that their reality is different to ours, but it comes with its own pros and cons and they're fine with it. Yeah, I think he's correct. In fact, in that analogy,

I would think I'm somebody like Tony Hawk. I'm like the geriatric in a skate park. Oh, yeah. That's how you are on social media. Because I'm with the kids throwing the mud. Heavy. Heavy, heavy, heavy. Because you were literally throwing the mud on the playground. Yeah. Okay. I think your brother is right, but I think there's very few of them that are like that. The rest of them.

And if you had to look at the stats around, you know, mental wellness and anxiety and all of that, a lot of them are not thinking like that. So for me, your brother is the hippie. One thing I will throw into that. Yeah, we'll wrap. We'll wrap. One thing. I'm reading light. This nigga's even calling me. All right. So one thing I will say to that is I think it's the same. Guys, one bully at my school terrorized three standards, like three grades. One bully. Do you understand what reach that is? One guys, one bully would come to the tuck shop, the cafeteria for those in America, and would take anything and everything and do whatever they.

So I understand what you're saying, but I go, I feel like we were also that generation. I watched people get terrorized by one bully and a whole school could have done something and didn't do anything and we're all just like, that's them. You know, you're just like, pray to God they don't come your way. And so what I'm arguing is I don't necessarily think that they are softer or like, I just think that because it's so foreign to us, we see it as being more that way. But I don't necessarily think it's. It's the same problems, just a different iteration. Yes. But that's how generations are.

Yes, that's what I think. And then I actually think the mental health thing, I think it is more important to look at our communities, like our real communities versus our social ones. I think we take for granted, forget the bully, forget the social media, forget all of that. We take for granted what a physical touch was yes I got bullied but at least my bully touched me okay

do you know what I'm saying at least my bully even the lights are like no at least I felt my bully skin alright you know what we'll continue this go catch your flights bye bye get out of here thank you I love you guys we love you so much

alright go catch your flights don't get bullied whatever or if you do make sure they touch you Thank you. I love you guys. We love you so much. All right, go catch a flight. Don't get bullied. Whatever. Oh, if you do, make sure they touch you. The thing around touching is so that I can assess your strength. Because when you are bullying me and you touch me, I can assess, okay, maybe I can fight you one day.

But digitally, I don't know what your strength is. Yeah, that is one thing I think is worse. That's the only reason I'll agree with you with the bully touching you. Okay, I'll throw you another one that you might agree with. And I mean this genuinely. Every kid who bullied me.

Made you a better person? No, saw me as a human being. And I saw them as a human being because they didn't perpetually bully me. And they were not perpetually bullies. They were kids who played sports, who ate food, who caught the bus, who... And then they were the same way like your job doesn't define you hopefully in life. They were like, no, I work as a bully, but I'm also still a human being.

They laughed. They... I remember walking into school and the bully would be there and be like, Trevor, you! And I'd be like, ah, bro, come on. And be like, yeah. And then he'd be like, okay. But tomorrow. bruh come on and be like yeah and then he'd be like okay but tomorrow that for me I don't see anyone doing online because I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say but even though that

bully was a bully because we shared the same space because we breathe the same air because we looked into each other's real eyes I knew who that bully was I knew their name I knew where they lived I they were a human being but that's because with digital, everything is just fleeting and passive. Yeah, and fake. But I'll raise you that people that I have like squared up with on digital, there are people that have become my friends because every day we're going to go over each other. Really? Yes, and then after a while you're like, you know, you're not half bad because you must remember something.

Somebody who's wrong can't be wrong all the time. And somebody who's right can't be right all the time. Oh, I like that. So even with people that I've disagreed with, you know, like aggressively on eggs, sooner or later, because you still get retweeted by other people, I'm like, you know, I usually speak nonsense, but today I can agree with what you're saying. Right. So we are agreeing with each other.

It's just that with digital, there's this thing of, I've said it, it's done, my phone is off, I'm gone. Right. But now with your bully, they were coming back to you every day. There was a chance of you seeing them again and again and again. So back to what you were saying about community. Think of the first days on Twitter. That was a community. Yeah, it was. And I think right now it's just that you're dealing with the, you wouldn't allow anyone to just touch you like that, even in your physical sense when you're a child, because you're like, I don't know you. Yeah.

I have a bullion woman. Who are you? Who are you? Right. And I think that what you're going back to is that wherever you are, be it at work within your family and whatever, just find your sense of community. It's funny. You know, you say, yeah, there's something you stumbled on, I feel like, in

one part that's really special and that is we've lost that. Even fighting, at least you are connecting with another person. I know it sounds crazy, but even having a back and forth, at some point, you will see each other as people. You know, when Sibla almost quoted President Joe Biden, let me quote President Obama at his first inauguration, where he said, I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. You must listen to people that you disagree with. And that's the problem with, I would say, the Trump party, is that there's just a notion that I don't have to listen to you because I disagree with you. But what if in the two minutes of me talking, you agree with 30 seconds of what I'm saying. Now you're

doing yourself an injustice of just totally disregarding me because I'm not a Trump party. Yeah. But I think both ways actually. And I think that's, I've always said America's biggest struggle for me in its politics is that it is binary. So Americans think and have been taught that it is this or that. But now I realized, and I realized every time I come home to South Africa, I'm like, wow, we have such a complex, the perfect example is the, I'm an ANC bitch. The woman on the fly safe flight. This is a black woman who gets drunk on a flight, starts berating the flight attendant,

throws things at other passengers. And now passengers, black and white alike, team up against her to restrain her. Yeah, but even then the commentary of it, the pro ANC, they're against her, and then black people at larger against her and white people. And I was like, oh yeah, I don't really see many of those types of things happen in America.

I saw a white guy coming up for her and he wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong and we must understand. I was just like, okay, we have reached Miele. But, but what exactly, so what I mean is like, when you are told that there is one of two solutions, you will then think that there's one or two solutions. And so you will be forced to pick between one of two solutions. And you, and you believe that if I pick one, I can't like certain elements of the

other one, because you've been told, whereas, whereas when you come from a place where they go, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, as you said earlier with the ANC, even the ANC was multiple coalitions in one thing. And that's what made it work because you know what you find then? You find accountability. And me constantly having to behave in a way that proves that my theory is the one that we should go with.

Now when we're all thinking the same, when we're all thinking the same. Isn't that a dictatorship? Yeah. No, this is not, actually, you know what's funny? You actually made me worry less. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. No, really, because I think to myself,

even in the moment, this is gonna sound like a crazy thing, even for me to say to myself, but like, the one upside of revolutions is that they bring people together. Or like one of the upsides maybe depending on where the revolution is going. But it is like, you know, the people come together. Like the, you know, you think of like the Berlin wall coming down, you think of like

the Soviet Union collapsing, you think of Cuba, you think, yeah, it's like, it brings people together. And maybe that's what's, maybe that's what we're living in. Maybe life is a constant yo-yo of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together, and maybe we create things that pull us apart, walls at our houses, you know, tinted windows in our cars, things that isolate us. And then something comes along, everything from an earthquake to a fire. And then you need that person. And then all of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden, we're now back together.

And it's interesting to think of like us always being forced to come back together, whether we like it or not. Yeah, because. Like literally, whether we like it or not. Whether you like it or not. Humans are going to get forced to be. We're going to be back here together. Yeah. And we don't know what it or not. Yeah because like literally whether we like it or not. Whether you like it or not. Humans are gonna get forced to be back here together. Yeah and we don't know what it'll be. Yeah. Huh I like that. See once these were left my worries left as well. No but you need the grim. The grinch. The funny thing is he's not even

grinchy. If he was a grinch it would be better. He's an AI. It's his delivery of it. You know like when you watch those movies where like the robot just says like straight up they just go like Humankind needs to be eliminated. Then you're like, excuse me. It appears to me that being human is suboptimal Yeah, but I'm asking you what's a better way to do my garden. The best way is to not have a garden It's gonna die anyway. It's gonna die anyway The same way you will die if I end you then you do not have to worry about the garden. Yo yo yo, Sizwe. Sizwe, I'm looking for a solution. Yes, and I've presented the ultimate solution to you. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Solution is death. Yes, this is why you're a mom and he isn't. As a parent you just have to be the eternal optimist. And that's true. And but then it's so difficult to be the eternal optimist, but then finding hard, places to be hard inside of that.

Because you have to be hard at times. Because discipline has to happen. Damn. You know. So you know what it is? It's a yo-yo. We separate, but we're going to come together. Because somebody has to drive you to school. I love that. Thank you, Aneezy. Thanks for joining me. And thank you, Sizwe, in your absence. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? Thanks for watching!