WHAT WENT WRONG - Below The Line - Script Supervisor (Killers of the Flower Moon)

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

This week, Chris and Lizzie chat with legendary script supervisor Jessica Lichtner. Ms. Lichtner's credits include a long-running collaboration with Martin Scorsese (most recently Killers of the Flower Moon), West Side Story, Knives Out, John Wick, The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn Parts 1 & 2, and many many more. Join us as we discuss what a script supervisor does in each phase of production, how to effectively communicate on set, and some great advice on working in the industry from a bonafide pro. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, dear listeners, we're so excited to bring you this very special below-the-line interview with script supervisor Jessica Lickner, who recently worked on the Killers of the Flower Moon. Maybe you've heard of it, which is nominated for 10 Oscars. Going forward, we'll be releasing more incredible interviews with below-the-line crew members out of our vault and dropping them here on the main feed. So keep an eye out for that. Without further ado, here's our interview with the amazing Jessica Lickner. Hello and welcome to a special bonus episode of What Went Wrong. I'm your host, Lizzie Bassett, here as always with my lovely co-host, Chris Winterbauer. Lovely. And this is another edition of our below-the-line interview series. This is a very special episode.

We had our guest today reach out to us after the Twilight Breaking Dawn episode that we did, which obviously made me very happy. And then I saw the rest of her credits. and my mind was blown. So, Chris, I'm going to kick it over to you to introduce our amazing guest for today's episode. Yes, today we're talking to Jessica Lickner. She is a script supervisor with over three decades of experience.

Check out her IMDAB immediately before you listen to this podcast. She has worked with some of the greatest directors currently working in Hollywood, including Martin Scorsese, Stephen Spielberg, Ryan Johnson, Peter Jackson, the late Sydney Lumet, and many more, perhaps most salient to this podcast, as Lizzie mentioned. Jessica was the script supervisor for the final two installments of the Twilight Saga that would be Breaking Dawn Parts 1 and 2.

We are both honored and thrilled to have Jess on with us today, and we are extremely excited to dive into the stressful and hyper-detail-oriented world of script supervision. Jess, thank you for being here. It's my pleasure. We are so excited to be talking to you. Really quick, actually. I'm going to totally throw you off because I'm going to ask a question that's not on the question list that we sent you.

But how did you come across our podcast? Yes. Well, I listened to lots and lots of podcasts. It's what got me through the pandemic. You know, get in Central Park and make the six-mile loop every day at 11 o'clock. And so I needed a lot of podcasts. And so, of course, one of my big interests is Hollywood and movies. and it was suggested to me by Apple Podcasts, and that's how I found it.

Oh. So what you're saying is, if you listened to enough, you'll scrape the bottom of the barrel, and you will get to our podcast eventually. I get it. I understand, and I'll take it. Well, we really appreciate you listening, and even more so, we appreciate you joining us today. I really am excited because I've only directed two movies. I've not been involved in nearly as many movies as you, but script supervisor.

What an incredibly important position that people do. don't know about. So could you describe what the primary function of a script supervisor is? The script supervisor is the liaison between what happens on set and what happens to post-production, primarily, because the editor mostly doesn't come to set. You're tasked with being an advisor to the director, director of photography in all aspects of how the, film eventually is going to be edited together. So you sit at this important nexus between the camera, the director, meaning performance, and then obviously the edit post-production.

And it's your brain and the notes that you're taking and your vision for how the movie will eventually look that's dictating when you need to course correct. Am I getting that right in terms of how you're interfacing with the people that you're interacting with on set? Yes, I mean, a big part of what the script supervisor should be doing is getting into the brain of the director, because the idea isn't to make the movie that I think we should be making. The idea is to help the director make the movie, you know, she or he is trying to make. And so that might include, for example, you need to understand the shot list because you need to understand the angles that. that are going to be captured, how they're going to be edited together,

if you guys were going to need to cut coverage in order to make your day, meaning limit the number of angles that you're shooting, you need to understand that to make sure it's going to work for the editor. And even beyond that, could you talk a little bit about how you keep track of things that the director is maybe liking on the day that you want to make sure is relayed to post-production? Yes, I mean, when I take notes, I don't editorialize. I happen to take notes and I write down exactly what the director says. So if the director said, but I make it clear to the editor that I'm saying what the director's saying.

So it's not me saying this one stinks and we should only consider it a rehearsal. I'm going to use the initials of the director and I'm going to say, you know, SC says this stinks and we should only consider it a rehearsal. Because part of what I like to do with my notes is tell the story to the editor of how that shot went. Take one, it really was a rehearsal, and take two, the actress forgot the lines, and take three, we stopped, you know. And so as you go through the takes, the editors should be able to read the story of how that shot went. So obviously, in addition to this, a very important part of your job is also continuity. I imagine it's a large portion of your job. Could you explain to our audience a little bit about sort of like what you are looking for and why that. is so, so, so important by the time the cameras have stopped rolling and you've moved into post-production. Yes, there's a lot of different kinds of continuity. The goal is to get the maximum

amount of usable footage with the minimum amount of problems. So there's storyline continuity. When the actor ad-lives, and especially like in a stage where it can be hard to tell if it's lit for day or night. I know people listening think that's crazy, but it can be hard to tell. And the actor starts to ad lib and they're saying like this morning, this morning and actually the scene is in the morning. Right. Yeah. You know, so that's something you would bring up. Because if the ad lib is good or if they want to use some free flowing stuff from the actor, you at least want it to be usable. Right. But there's that. There's storyline continuity. Then there actual continuity, which has to do mainly with matching action.

It's complicated. Let's put it that way because you have to know how cuts work and where cuts come because your ultimate goal is to annoy the actors the least amount possible. So rather than constantly be telling them, you know, pick this up when you do, you're looking for the big things that are going to cause problems when you're cutting. And those have to do with, for example, as we're talking now, I stand up on the word stand. And then when we get to another part of my coverage, I stand up on the word up. It can be tough to cut that together.

I mean, you have to cut around it. What sort of experience did you go through to get that level of knowledge about editing? Because it seems like you have to fully understand what the editor is going to do with every scene in addition to what you're watching on set. That comes with time. that's sort of the last piece to the puzzle, usually, as you've been working for a while. And I was very lucky because the woman who taught me to be a script supervisor, who was for self a script supervisor, to teach me to look for cuts, we would watch movies with the sound off.

And every time we saw a cut, we'd snap our fingers. Oh, wow. And it kind of forced you to look at where people cut. and where people cut mostly is on action or on emotion. And then my first job actually was for Roger Corman's studio in Venice. Oh, of course. And it was still back in the day when you had film and there were trims hanging everywhere, whatever.

Every day after I shot on the set and I did my notes, I would go in the editing room. And I would look at how the decisions I made the day before, because everything was done there so, so quickly. We're working out. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot that way. You have to go in the editing.

You have to let them let you in. You know, it's the only way to learn. And I think that a lot of people think, I know I thought this before I started working in film, they think that post-production begins after production. But editorial is working in tandem with the production. And the reason, Jess, your notes are so, crucial is that the next day, the editorial team or that night is processing the footage that was shot

that day. And the only way they're going to make any sense of it and be able to organize it and ingest that footage in a way that is decipherable in a week, a month, three months, is by stamping it with those notes. So there is a record of what was happening on set. And the director can say, why the hell did I do this? And then they can say, let me tell you exactly why you did this. And it's a crucial part of the process. And really quickly, I just wanted to define a couple of terms in case some of our audience members are unfamiliar.

So coverage, meaning when you film a scene, you film it from more than one angle. And so typically that comes from an older style, which a lot of directors still use, but you would shoot a master shot first, a wide shot that encompasses as much of the action as possible. And then you break the scene down into various, other angles, close-ups, medium shots, tracking shots that you're going to use for to either accelerate

the action, to slow the action down, to heighten the emotion of a scene by punching in close on an actor's face. And the typical editor, the style that we're most used to is the style of invisible editing, where we hide edits, the cuts that Jess is talking about on the actor's movement, motion, as she mentioned, on an emotional moment or turn. And that, the audience understands those because there is a continuity across the cut. So if you're cutting on my hand coming across the frame and I'm doing the same motion and it feels contiguous in both shots, you won't bump on it. And interestingly, you've worked with Martin Scorsese a ton. And his editor, Thelma Schoonmaker, Schoonmaker, Schoonmaker, am I pronouncing it correctly?

she has a slightly different view on the importance of continuity. I'm very curious, is that at all different from your relationship on other film productions? No, I'm still going to do what I do. But I never impose continuity on a director who's not looking for it. In other words, a director, especially who's quite accomplished, is going to understand, well, first of all, I would never just walk over to an actor and give them some sort of, like, direction about their body or anything ever. Because first of all, you want to know, is that, does that matter to the director?

And does it matter right there? You know, lots of times you're doing a scene and you're let the actors are beginning 10, 15 lines, back and really what you want to get is the one line in that size, but they have to ramp up. They're not machines. They can't just start acting. All the some of them can. It's incredible. But anyway, so, but I'll tell you, I mean, I, there's a lot of continuity in this stuff

I do with Marty. And I haven't really ever had him give me a hard time about it. actually. So it's interesting, you know. Yeah. No, I love her editing style personally because I love the idea of not worrying, not that it's not important, but that if the emotion is strong enough, it will trump the need for a more standard on action. You know what I'm saying? Sort of continuity that can get obsessive. But, you know, Thelma and Marty's timing is so, it's so good. They can get stuff by you that you can't, I mean, I don't. You never notice. And I can. And I can't even imagine, you know, but of course, he's been pretty indulgent with me and actually

allowed me to, you know, try to do some stuff quite a few times. And, you know, so I don't, it's not really that different. Interesting. What do you mean by indulgent with you? Like how to, so that relationship has built over time. Yes. How does that change in terms of your purview on, on set, you know, and kind of how free you feel in doing your job? You know, because I was taught in a certain way by a really good script supervisor who made it very clear that our job was to speak up, I have always done it. And I think what I hope I'm getting, have gotten better at over time is presenting the information in a neutral fashion. In other words, I, because continuity.

for its own sake means nothing. It really only supports everything else that's happening. So I'm going to give you the information, and then you can do whatever you want. Now, the good thing about working with the director over and over is, because I'm also going to write in my notes that we decided not to do it again. In part because I want the editor to know, we know. We know he didn't put the hat on until seven lines too late, you know, so she doesn't, or he doesn't wonder like, you know, number one, what the heck is going on? And number two,

that it doesn't mean anything to the director. Director doesn't care when the hat goes on. But once your director's been through the editing process and seeing your notes and it's the same thing for them that was happening for me. I would go into editing. I would see the results of my decisions. They go to editing. They see the results of their decisions. Yes, it's a painful process. I am never going to bring anything up that I think doesn't really matter. It's just too much. You just can't yammer at somebody all day long. It's too much information. It's not important. So I'm looking for the things that I think are really important. And usually after they've gone through editing once and we're working together

again, they understand that's what's happening. And so they listen to that. I have to say also, I think what you said at the beginning of this where you said I present information in a neutral way, is like that's such good advice for really any career, particularly any career that touches the arts or entertainment because it's so easy to get sort of emotionally attached to the project that you're working on, especially when it is something like a movie or even, I mean, my job I work in podcast, it's the same thing. And like I feel like I need to like write that on the wall behind my desk, like present information in a neutral way. Like that's the best possible thing you can do. I love that. So I want to get back to Martin Scorsese and Killers of the Flower Moon in particular, which I'm very, very excited about.

But I would also like to hear a little bit more about sort of how did you get into this? What drew you to script supervision and what was your path to this career? It was an accident, a happy accident. I was working, actually worked in the theater. And my career and I, you know, were partying. ways at the same time. I wasn't interested anymore and it seemed to be coming the other way as well. Was it acting or was it? I was singing, I was singing, doing musicals and the actress fund, which is now called the Entertainment Fund, which is a social services agency for people in entertainment

had a career transition program. So I went to it and it was in L.A. I happened to be in L.A. at the time. Somebody in the group who worked in production, because you have to understand, like, I'd never really been on a set except in a couple commercials and one tiny part in a movie. And I don't ever remember even seeing a script supervisor. So I didn't do the tape group, you know. And this guy said to me, I think you should be a script supervisor. And I said, okay. And because I couldn't think of anything else to do. And the script part sounded good.

And a friend who worked in production knew about this class and I called and there was one space left and it started that Saturday. And I went. And at the end of the couple of months that I went, we went like once a week to Betty Goldberg was the name of the script supervisor,

her garage in Beverly Hills. And we learned how to be script supervisors. And at the end, she took another woman an eye and she said, you guys can really do this and I'm going to help you get started. And she did. Oh, wow. Do you feel like coming from a background as an actor and singer and performer, do you feel like there was anything in that part of your life or career that prepared you well to move into this? I'm sure there was, but I'm curious what it was. Well, action matching was easier because I spent a lot of time, you know, learning steps and looking in the mirror and being aware. So I had like a feel

for that. And I love to read and, you know, do a lot of reading. The one part where it a little bit tripped me up is in the theater, when you give a note or receive a note, it's considered very bad form to get angry or upset. You know, you receive notes every night from the stage manager. You know, you're too far over here, you're this, you're that. So the big surprise to me was when And the director said, well, go up and tell her that she has to sit down when she says, you know, and I went up to the person and they were like, get out, get out, you know. What? What are you talking about? So, you know, and cut to many years later, and I'm working on West Side Story with all these actors and singers and all.

And it was so delightful because it was back to that mentality of saying, you know, you turned this way when you walked away and they'd say, okay. and was like, oh, yes, you know. Did you ever find, this is something that I've noticed a couple times. There are some actors that I've worked with who actually really view the script supervisor as a resource. And we'll go to the script supervisor often and check in about, okay, wait, hold on. I don't remember how I did this. Remind me. And the script supervisor is such a great repository of information for everybody.

Because obviously for the director, huge, second brain sitting right next to them. And then, but have you had that, I'm sure you have that experience as well. If actors coming to you, you know, wait, hold on, remind me, you know, because there's just too much to keep in your own, you know, in your head if you're performing. Right. And on my end, I'm also looking for, there's a critical element that usually happens in a scene where an actor does an action that then results in all the other actions. So that's what you're looking for because you can't tell.

somebody 15 things, you know, yes and that, it's going over here. And then so you're looking for that one thing, like, what's the one thing I can tell them? As I'd like it to be a sentence or less that I tell them, you know, and you're looking for the one critical piece of movement that's going to set them off on the right path. And that's really, I take that on me. They don't have to know what that is. I should know what that is so I can get them going in the right direction. When you started your career, you mentioned how you were brought in to this great training program, and then you effectively got to Apprentice. For how long were you working underneath her before you set out on your own?

Never. Oh, really? Okay. You just learned, and then you were just on set. We're going. Wow. So I did do when we were, because we would, like I said, we would go once. It was like the equivalent of sort of a college semester.

This is a lot of information, you know. And anyway, towards sort of the end of it, I started doing, I did some AFI films, people's thesis films, which was really fun because we were all learning together. Really? Yeah. And then she would get calls from people that knew she had beginners, meaning cheap. And she gave them my name and I did this feature and then it really never stopped. I love this also because, you know, so I went to acting school as well.

I initially thought that's what I wanted to do. And I think what you're saying is very important for a lot of actors to hear, especially when you're talking about the things that you took with you that were useful in this career as well is like there are so many different places that you can take the skills that you have learned. And it's so cool to think about like how many advantages you probably had coming from the background that you did. And I hope people, you know, explore stuff like this. And that every really truly, no bullshit, every job on a film set is both highly technical and highly creative. And I think that's what's so cool about the script supervision role is that it's

so obvious how it's both highly technical and highly creative. You're having to break the creative part down into its most technical components, but then, like you said, just remember that there's a human at the other end of it. And so I need to present that information back in a way that allows them to continue the creative process. And that's so cool. It's such an incredible function, you know, that you get to serve in the center of it all. Yeah, it's the best seat in the house. I mean, for sure.

Do you have, when you're starting with a new director, because you mentioned you're trying to get into the head of the director, you want to be able to see the movie that they're trying to make. When you've had the good fortune of working with Mr. Scorsese for years, for example, I'm sure there's a secondhand and a native tongue there. What about when you're starting with a new director? How do you approach that process? Well, in pre-production, I am making the continuity days breakdown,

which I don't know if your audience knows what that is. but it would seem when you read a script that probably the writer would write down like this happens on this day and then would write a scene number and write tomorrow, you know, or the next day, but they don't. Some do, some do, but most don't. Or, you know, by the time you see the script, there's been note sessions and so many things and that they're now writing from an emotional point of view and their like logic has gone completely out the window.

Yeah. Most scripts don't make a lot of sense when you really sit down and read them carefully. And I've written them so I can say that from personal experience. Yeah, they don't make logical sense. That's my point. Exactly. Sure. Emotional sense.

Yeah, they make emotional sense, hopefully, right? But somebody has got to make sure that when the person says, I'm going to do this tomorrow, it isn't actually three days later because the sun has gone up and down three times. And that's me. So I will make it less than 10 questions. I mean, I'll do a lot of, like, my own stuff. And then, like, I talk to the wardrobe department. I say, like, what do you think about this?

Then the AD department is somewhere taking a crack at it. But it's going to come down to me. So then I'll ask for a meeting with the director. And I'll say, I need 20 minutes because the director, by the time I get there is usually, I mean, not with somebody that I work with all the time because I start way in advance, but if I'm just hired on. But the time I get there, they are in crunch mode. And every minute they're.

is taken, you know, so you're cramming and you're saying, like, I got to get in for 20 minutes. And what I'm doing when I ask the questions is I'm trying to receive information, but I'm listening. I'm listening to how they communicate. I'm listening to whether these 10 questions are, they're already getting annoyed. And that's telling me, oh, wow, okay, It's going to be like very little coming my way maybe at the beginning. My theory is they're working with the last script supervisor they had. Right? Because, you know, not that I'm not an individual and not that they don't see people as individuals,

but they're just falling back on the last working relationship they had, especially if they haven't had a lot of them. And if they didn't like that person, I got to get up that hill. So they like me. Totally. Yeah. Well, I think that this leads a bit to my next question, which is that, of course, the podcast is called What Went Wrong.

So without naming names, if you are comfortable with it, what are some behaviors or patterns that you have seen on set that from your perspective are potentially sort of destructive to the creative process. I don't know. I've been very, I have to say, I mean, everybody's seen some stuff, but I've been pretty lucky, you know. How about just, are there any mistakes, for example, that you would, you know, point out, honestly, for my learning experience is that, you know, trying to work in this field, I'd be very curious. I'm sure I've made a lot of them. No, I mean, okay, so the worst thing a director can do is not decide. Yes. It's just madness. I mean, I mean, we're all waiting, you know, and if you have a really good crew, a professional crew, they're not going to decide for you.

We're going to hold out until the last possible moment before doing something, you know. I mean, I'm talking even between takes and stuff where a director just won't decide, you know. And that leads to chaos. And it leads to not great footage. everybody's there to support that person. So that person must accept that responsibility. So if either they don't know their own material or enough or if they don't understand how scenes work. And also, I would say another sort of bad thing is if you're pretending all that stuff, because we know it. And we don't care. We'll help you. You know, we don't have some sort of

of, you know, minimum level of expertise. We know you've done two movies. We took the job. Wait, are we talking about me now? Just? Well, again, that is... I feel like we're getting very specific here. Yeah.

So, Chris, when you're on set, that's also such good advice. And I feel like that's something that comes up again and again with the best directors that we see, is that they listen to the people that they have hired. and treat the experts in their fields as experts. So continue. But yeah, that's excellent advice for anyone. And also the blamers, no blaming, please no blaming. I mean, everyone makes mistakes.

It's horrible when you make a mistake because you wouldn't be in the position you're in getting to work on decent projects if you weren't your own worst critic. So when somebody makes, there's no need to pile on. There's no need to point it out. You know, there's no need. Even though I'm sure, like, as the director, you just really want to. But it just doesn't help. It just makes everybody feel bad now. Now everybody feels bad.

Because the rest of us saw that it happened. We're not talking about it on purpose because we're letting the person get past it. And most things are not irrevocable. And that comes to the other thing that's bad is, like, if you make a mistake, You got to say it right away. Certainly for me, one of the first movies I did, part of the character's thing was that they kept crashing the car they were in. So they would have like another car and then another car and another car.

And, you know, it was overwhelming and it was, you know, a lot. And we shot a whole scene and I realized at the end that he was in the wrong car. Oh, no. And, you know, the actor didn't seem to realize it. The guy who brought the car didn't seem to realize. I didn't realize it in time, but I did realize it before we walked away from the set. And it was maybe the worst 15 minutes of my life

where I had to say to the director, he's in the wrong car. This is the wrong car. The producer became hysterical, you know, was running up and down the street. Everybody teased me about it. pretty mercilessly the rest of that day. And then I said, okay, this has to be over now. You know, but the truth was because I admit, I mean, it wasn't like they were going to go to

editing and by magic it was going to be the right car in there. No. A few months late. You know what I mean? So people, it feels horrible to have to say you made a mistake. But you can usually fix it. Yeah. Important to say I was wrong. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, sometimes. even it's not as big as that, but in the moment you're taking a position and you're talking, you know, I mean, you know, it's everyone,

it's competing interests all the time. You know, it's, that's the nature of collaboration. I mean, it's, you're holding up your end and you're advocating for your point of view about your job. Mm-hmm. So is everybody else. So even if you're having that discussion and you start to see it from the other person's point of view,

I think it's important to acknowledge that also and not just get into this crazy thing where you can't see anybody else's point of view and you've got a hold of you know, you know, that doesn't help either. Yeah. I've had one or two examples of a hysterical producer running down. One was on a commercial. I just fear that it would be me. Like if I tried to do that, it would absolutely be me just screaming. I think we can get, we can glean a number of the more positive qualities that, you know, a director or just folks on set in general can have as the inverse of some of those more negative ones. But perhaps a car changing every scene is a good way, Lizzie, to get into the scope of some of the movies that you've worked on, Jess, which is, which are just monumental in their size.

And of course, Killers of the Flower Moon, which is coming out very soon. And the trailer looks amazing. And it also looks enormous. Yes. And has huge stars. And like, the idea of trying to manage the amount of like visual information in that is wildly overwhelming. And it's historical. And it deals with issues of race that are extremely obviously sensitive and important to get right.

So there's a lot more responsibility when you're making a film. like that. And I'm curious, does that change your process in any way? Or do you feel like, no, it's, I have to apply the same process, you know, going into it? Could you talk a little bit about, you know, a film of that scale? That one is very particular because I love to talk about it. I mean, certainly, you just have to make a film a scene at a time. Because it's overwhelming. When you meet the Irishman, there were 140-something scenes. You know, you can't. go there. You just have to be like, today we're doing this one, and this is what we're doing, and I'm going to focus on this. I still think of things Betty told me, which was she was talking

about, she worked on Beverly. She was the script supervisor on Beverly Hills Cop. Oh, wow. Wow. You know, there was a scene, I guess, where he went through, I don't remember it, but he went through a plate glass window. And she said, you know, I thought a lot about that plate glass window all day long, and then I never thought about it again. Yeah. Yeah, right? So you have to just get in what you're doing. The thing with Killers was, it was an extraordinary experience because we had the Osage Nation, Chief Standing Bear, who's very smart man, embedded many Osage people who were language experts. Because in the film, people speak the Osage tongue. DiCaprio does, right? Lots of people do. You know, certainly Lily does. Yeah.

And we had experts on culture, experts on clothing, on activities. And we have a full-time researcher that works with Marty. He's worked with them for 20 years. And her name is Marianne. And she's really the one that sort of wrangles all of that. And it's really up to me then to just carry out what all these other people were telling us. And I think I speak for everyone when I say we felt an enormous responsibility to not let down people who've been let down so many times before.

So that was a very particular, you know, we were there, I was there for six months maybe in Oklahoma. We were shooting on their ancestral lands. You know, it was a lot and it was an incredible, incredible experience. How do you manage that amount of information? Like when you're talking about the language experts and, you know, the, obviously there's people you're working with who are a part of the tribe and everything. Like that's, how do you even sort of begin to keep track of all of those pieces? Yeah. I mean, that one too, like, I had this script for a long time and so I actually all the iterations of it. So that makes it easier because you start to sort of, you know, for me anyway, the first time I read the script, I read it like a story, like a book, you know, just to see like

what's going on. Then between the time I get the script and the time I start shooting, I read the script every day. Oh my gosh. I read it every day. And I have to time it for one thing, which means that not only do you read it, but you read it out loud and act it out, which really helps because you hear things that you've read so many times before. And it's shocking how you could be on reading number 15 or 16 and you're like, wait a minute, he what? You know, so that's one way that I'm absorbing all of it. And the other way just really is every day. You just have to look at what you're shooting and think a lot about that.

Yeah, one bite at a time. And really quickly, too, a script timing is what it sounds like to our audience members. The script supervisor just will sit down and. act out, read out the dialogue, et cetera, time the script, and this is roughly how long, in theory, the movie is right now, you know, in the way that it's currently constituted, which is incredibly valuable until the studio gets a hold of it, at which point they start haranguing you about cutting pages. And you're like, we can't edit the movie before we filmed it, you know? So it's one of those things that's so useful, but can be used as a cudgel in

the wrong hands, unfortunately. And that's not ever the script supervisor's fault. That is a, that's a nervous executive's fault more than anything else. I won't give it to anyone but the director. I know, but then the studio goes to the director and says, we need to, well, not to Mr. Sorsese. They do to Mr. Winterbauer. I don't think it's a bad thing to know what territory you're in, though. Oh, no, it's extremely important because it's so easy. I've been there putting my head in the sand saying, oh, it's going to play fast, which is such a lie. And you know it's a lie when you tell it to yourself, but it's the lie you tell yourself to get through the day because you haven't figured out a way how to cut these three scenes that probably should be cut.

Well, the danger is that you're putting yourself, I mean, because we've all seen movies where there's some kind of, I'm thinking of one in particular, I won't say the name of it, but, you know, there's this big scene at the end. and all these people are giving each other all these looks and everything. And you're like, where is this coming from? It's from all the things you cut out because you insisted on writing them. You insisted on shooting them. And you've made all these connections that the audience now has never seen. And so it's not a bad thing to cut some stuff before you shoot it.

100%. And also, yet again, it is so interesting to hear you talk about this because your background as a performer has to again come in handy as you're doing these, I'm sorry, what is it called again? Script, script timing. Script timing. Okay. Yeah, because you can't just like blow through it.

I would imagine you're having to, right, give space for the sort of emotional weight of the scenes and action and everything. Yeah, you have to, if it says that because that's another thing. I mean, obviously, if somebody comes in the front door, I mean, this isn't going to happen to, it's like, not an Andy Warhol. You know, we're not going to like start outside with the person. sure but um yeah but you have to you have to say it out loud for one thing because what you say and what you say is different because you have to breathe when you talk um but you have to do

all the actions so if it says you know i don't know boil puts takes takes down the pot puts it on the stove my dog is long gone now but he he used to it was like dog tv you know he's like okay shut out and he just like settle in you know he'll be walking around Oh, I love that. Well, Lizzie, speaking of long movies, to be fair, Twilight, Saga, all of them are quite long. Breaking Dawn was obviously broke. It's a book broken into two movies because it was so long. As you know, I'm a fan.

Yes. And we watched those recently. I think you already addressed, we want to make sure our audience knows. But is there anything we got, to your knowledge, we just got blatantly wrong. Yeah, please tell me. Ridicule me. You know, really? Great.

Great. All right. Because we take pride in our research and we don't want to, you know, spread rumors. No. See, what Chris isn't saying is that for all the commenters that tell us that we don't do enough research, I am now going to say, well. Yeah, exactly. We're going to send you to Jess. Well, sticking with Breaking Dawn, that was a saga.

That whole, you know, it was a franchise. Yeah, with all different directors. Exactly. With multiple directors. but the same cast, obviously, across all of them. What was it like joining, like, that moving train, which was moving very quickly for our episode. You guys should go listen to it.

I know that obviously the cast had been established and they'd worked together multiple times. Was the cruise jumping film to film or no or part of it? You couldn't, I have to imagine, because of the production of post-production. No. And also, you know, Bill was bringing on his own production designer and it was, Guillermo Navarro was the DP, and he was new.

And that's Bill Condon, who came on as the director for the final. Yeah. So, no, I mean, it's tricky, though. It's tricky. You know, I mean, I also worked on one of the many iterations of Spider-Man. And it's very tricky for the director, you know, because they want. Sorry, as you say, yeah, do the actors, are the actors, kind of the authority in a weird way, if they've been on it longer?

You know, they were pretty game for anything. I mean, they're very young. I mean, they were really, most of them. You know, they were really kids and they were nice kids. And they, no, they wanted to be directed and they wanted to do a good job. and they were really lovely. I mean, it was a very nice part of the job, I would say, the cast. Oh.

I apologize. I interrupted you, as you were saying the director, it's tricky for a director coming in to a franchise. Yeah. Like that for a one-off. Could you speak a little bit more about that? I think there are some obvious ways, but maybe some less obvious ways, too. Well, the franchise is the star. Mm-hmm.

Property and protecting the property becomes all important, or that's what it's seems like when you're sitting next to the director. And they hire people because they like things they've done. A lot of times smaller, more interesting things. They get crushed under the weight of this giant franchise, which didn't happen to Bill because he wouldn't allow it. You know, he just... He had a lot more experience, too.

And he's a wonderful director. He's a... And they were, I think they were lucky to have him because... Mm-hmm. You know, it was tricky, though. That franchise, I think, snagged a lot of great people across all departments. If you look at the talent involved, you know, from obviously the cast when it was great and has gone on to do great things.

A lot of the directors that they had were great production design was great cinematography, script supervision, the music was incredible across all of them. It's really, it's an interesting franchise because it's got. so many really great, you know, people intersecting it at various points as it's being released like every six months. Yeah, seriously. And I hadn't seen one of them by the way. Oh my gosh.

Really? Did you watch them when you got hired onto, so you binged them? Yes. And when I first got on, I lived next door to a tween. And so I was like, aha. And I knocked at the door and I said, Emmy. And then like 18 hours later, you know, there's just. He liked the whole story.

You know, because I really, I was starting to read the script and I just thought, what? Yeah. Were you like, excuse me? So there's, he's, he loves the baby? I don't, what's happening? Well, I mean, it's not even getting to he loves the baby. It was right like they get married and, you know, it just was so kooky. Anyway, so I, yes, I did a lot of research so I could at least not be totally confused all the time.

Sure. Mm-hmm. Did you read the books? I read Breaking Dawn. Okay, you read the final book? I did. Got it. And you mentioned you get kind of... Were you brought on when they've already kind of locked the shooting script,

or was that script changing a lot during production? That script didn't change that much. Oh, wow. Interesting. You know, although Stephanie was there, which was very interesting meeting her. Yeah. This woman in the middle of this juggernaut. Right.

Yeah. Is that unusual? to have an author on set like that? Because I have to imagine that that person's probably quite close to you, right? No? No. I mean, usual, like, for example, in Killers, David Grant came to visit and left. But even on the day that the person's there, like even Stephanie, she never came to the monitor.

I mean, the monitor is a pretty, like, sacrosanct area. And normally it would be invited over to it. So I was introduced to her, but she would sit with the producers, and they're usually pretty far away. You put the producer, you go to the, yeah, so it's like there's the director's monitor, and depending on the director, who knows how close it is to the action. You know, some directors want to be right next to it a little further. And then you go to the DIT air, you know, and you're like, hey, what's the furthest amount of cable you have to put the producers somewhere else? Or like, how far does your wireless signal go? and they are down the street.

Because that way, to be fair, it's like they're not going to run up to you with a note until unless it's something drastic because it's just like too far a distance, you know, for them to cover, at least in my limited experience. And they have things to do. I mean, they're- Yes, they're doing other things if they're doing their job. They're talking to their assistance. They're there in case something happens, but they're not glued to the monitor.

I mean, it's impossible. They can't get their jobs done otherwise. But so that in itself can be really distressing if they're near you and they're talking. Yeah. You know, you know, you tell his agent, I said, you know, you're like, what? You know, this woman's dying and having a baby, please, you know. Yeah, exactly. She's becoming a vampire dying and having a baby all at the same time.

It's a lot, it's a lot. It's a lot. Oh, my goodness. the science. We're good. Yeah. Oh, boy. I feel like you've given us so much. I don't have many other questions for you. I have to say thank you so, so much for joining us. This has been amazing. And what a treat that you reached out to us.

Honored that you listened to the podcast. Thrilled that I didn't blatantly mess anything up in the Twilight episode. And, yeah, Chris, anything else to add? Yeah. To conclude, if you've got any interest in sharing, favorite movie? Oh, yeah. Or, or maybe of recent films you've watched. And if not, any movies you'd like us to maybe cover in the future? Yeah. If there's anything you wanted to recommend, we'll take it under due consideration. Well, favorite movie's impossible. It's just, sure. I know. It's a silly question. I hate myself for asking it. No, it's not a silly question, but it's just, it's literally impossible. Um,

So I did, though, write down a few movies that... Please. When is the Cotton Club? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yes, it's on our list. We're going to... Don't you worry.

We're going to get to the Cotton Club. Yeah. Yeah. One is staying alive. Oh. Oh, we will add that. I don't think that's on our list. Saturday night.

Because, like, what happened? That's the sequel. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That was the kind of... Travolta was heading downward at that point. He was on a trajectory toward Battlefield Earth. Yes, I think.

Yeah, exactly. But also, like, the juxtaposition of those two movies because, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like something crazy could have been happening during all that jazz. I'm not sure. Oh. Yeah, absolutely.

We need to cover all that jazz. It's Fossy, right? That's like the Bob Fossy, Roy Scheider. Autobiography. Yeah. That he directed. He was, like, dying while he was making it. Yeah.

There's a lot on that movie. We need to cover. Yeah, thank you. And then Black Swan. Yeah, there's like a lot of Aeronovsky I want to cover. I did Noah. Oh, you did? That's so interesting.

Yeah, I kind of have wanted to cover Mother just to cover the Jennifer Lawrence Daron Relationship Fallout, like of the press tour that she was very open about that I actually found very relatable and funny. And this is very public audience. This is not rumor. But famously, they were dating while they made the movie, Mother, Jennifer Lawrence. and Darren Aradowski, and they broke up shortly after its release. And Jennifer Lawrence said, basically, it's because they would come home from the press tour.

And Darren would just sit down and read the reviews of the movie. And that's all he wanted to talk about. And she was like, I can't keep talking about mother. And so they eventually split. And I think they're both very happy now. She's married and has a child. And he seems to be doing fine. Yeah.

We will, Black Swan, absolutely, we will throw on the list as well. Those are great recommendations. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of What Went Wrong. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Thank you, Apple, for recommending it to her and keeping her going in the Central Park walks. Guys, check out Jessica Lickner's IMDB page. Please watch Killers of the Flower Moon. Jess, is there anything that you would like to plug before we let you go?

No, I would just like to say, really on behalf of script supervisors everywhere, thank you so much for asking me here. And I appreciate that. Of course. My God, when your email came to, through, I was like, oh my gosh. We love, and I, I'm a big script supervisor fan on set. They are so crucial because details fly out of my head.

And it's such an important position. Well, and I know I keep bringing it up, but I will just say one more time. You know, I have so many friends who are still kind of within the performing business and some of them are having a tough time and trying to figure out, like, what could I possibly do with my skills that, you know, if I wanted to move on to something else. And the answer is so many things, so many things that they are so useful for. So thank you for sharing all of that and how you still apply those skills. I think it's important for people to hear. Thanks, guys. Thanks, guys. What went wrong is a sad boom podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer.

Editing music by David Bowman with cover art from Euthonouos.