WHAT WENT WRONG - Below The Line - Steadicam Operator (Donnie Darko)

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

An interview with Dave Chameides, legendary and award-winning steadicam operator whose career has spanned Donnie Darko, St. Vincent, The Tragedy of Macbeth, E.R., The West Wing, and Ozark. Join us as he talks to us about the joys, challenges, and evolving nature of his crucial role on film productions.For more on Dave and the art of camera operating be sure to check out his podcast, The Op.Go Ad-Free - Join Our Patreon!Check Out Our Merch!Follow Us on Instagram!What Movie's Next? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, what went wrong family. We are dropping another below the line episode from our vault for you to enjoy. We recorded this episode with Dave Kamites, the day after the Oscars last year, March 13th, 2023, so some of the references may be a bit out of date, but the information certainly is not. Dave runs the website, The Op, which is an amazing resource, not only for camera operators, but for anybody who works on set. He also runs a podcast called The Op where he interviews his below-the-line colleagues. It is a blast to listen to, and you will learn a ton. As you'll learn in this episode, Dave is one of the most prolific and accomplished steadicam operators to have worked in this business. He is an invaluable resource.

So without further ado, we give you Dave Kamides. Hello, and welcome back to another special Patreon episode of what went wrong below the line with Chris Winterbauer. And as always, my lovely co-host, Lizzie Bassett, Lizzie, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm very, very excited about our guest today. As am I.

Today, guys, you have the pleasure of listening to Dave Comites. Dave Comites has been a local 600-A-camera stidicam operator for over 20 years. He has won two Primetime Emmy Awards. He was nominated for an SOC operator of the Year Award in 2013 for the film St. Vincent. He won that same award, I believe I'm getting this right, this year for his work on Ozark

Season 4, it would eat up an episode reading his credits, but here are a few of my personal favorites, Dave, if you'll indulge me, from dusk till dawn, ER, Donnie Darko, I have a question about a specific shot in that movie, Jurassic Park 3, Wedding Crashers, the West Wing, Beginners, Shame, Moonrise Kingdom, the Heat, Boardwalk Empire, the Good Wife, the Americans, Lucifer, and the tragedy of Macbeth. It's, again,

check out his IMDB. The list goes on way longer than that. Dave, welcome to what went wrong. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's an honor to talk to you guys. I'm a huge fan of the show. And that was interesting because I was wondering

what you were going to pull out and you pulled out most of the usual suspects, but you actually didn't pull out one that I assumed you would. I thought you were going to pull out tremors. You know? How did you not? I missed it.

I must have missed it. No, but here's the thing. Now that I think about it, you looked on IMDB. I did. Tremors was the first thing I ever did. I did miniature visual effects. Amazing. And we did all the worms.

And remember that great sequence where the worm slams through the retaining wall. Yeah. You broke it to the wrong goddamn record. off the wall. Exactly. So I don't know if you remember it, but there's like, it's like it slams in and then there's a whip pan over to Michael Gross and read MacGyter. We built that whole, that whole miniature room.

Amazing. I remember like taking, because I had no idea what I was doing, and they were like, go make Pepsi cans. And so I was like taking pictures of Pepsi cans and like cutting them out and putting them around these little rings. I still have one on the desk here somewhere, actually. Yeah. Amazing. But now I, I will forgive you that because it's actually not on the main list. Thank you.

Because that's a classic. I love that. That's one of my favorite movies. It's a great, great film. And I will say also, I knew you would pick out Donnie Darko because it doesn't make a difference what I do with the rest of my life. Everybody will want to talk about Donnie Darko. Listen, it's a, I rewatched it. Because I saw it when I was 17 and I had the, you know, oh my God, my life will never be the same again.

I am a 17-year-old white male moment. But then I rewatched it recently. And I was surprised at how well it held up. I think it is an incredible film with a great tone. But I don't want to rat hole on Donnie Darko quite yet because we have a lot to get through with you, Dave. Well, we do. And I also will do my very best not to rat hole on justified city primeval, which I saw as your upcoming credit because I'm a big fan. But we don't have to get caught up in that.

I hope we didn't disappoint you. You'll have to tell me after you see it. I'll give you a very harsh review. Yeah, exactly. Please do. No, actually, I think it's going to be good. The only thing that was interesting about that was, you may know, when did that show go off the air?

Oh, my gosh. A long time ago, right? Like 2011? Is that right? Yeah. So the weird thing was, like, we just shot it last summer, and it was trying to convince them that you can't make the same TV show that was being made in 2011 because TV has massively changed, right?

Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. Dave, I realize there's one question that we should have put first on our question list. So I hope this doesn't catch you out of left field. But the very first question, you are a Steadicam operator. Yes. To anyone who does not know, what is a Steadicam and what does a Steadicam operator do?

Okay. So I'll back into it. The Steadicam operator operates the Steadicam. Great. And the Steadicam is this. Gizmo that was created by Garrett Brown, who is an amazing inventor. And basically, the long short story of it is that cameras used to be massive, and then they got smaller and people put them on their shoulder and ran around with them.

And that was the only way they could really move them freely if you want, not on Dolly Track. And so they came up with a French word for it called Cinema Verete because it was better than saying handheld. And Garrett was messing around. It was like, there's got to be a better way to do. do this. And he came up with this system that's a three-part system, basically, and there's a vest that attaches to your body, so it basically becomes like an exoskeleton. And there's an arm that sort of is, it has two parts to it with springs in it that looks like one of those arms that hangs off of like an architect's desk that you can put the, you know, the lamp wherever you want. That's

conceptually like it is. And that sort of acts as your forearm. And that attaches to the steady cam, which has a three-way moving gimbal. And so the idea is that you can put a camera on it and weighted out correctly and blah, blah, blah. And if you know what you're doing, you can run through a house with it, you can walk upstairs with it. You can go anywhere a human being can go more or less and make it look smooth. So, you know, a great example that most people know is ER or West Wing. Those were big, you know, camera moving shows. And ER was the show actually that I've been skating off of my entire career that I was, I got on very young somehow and didn't screw it up. And it was sort of the first show that kind of made steady cam not a specialty tool,

but like a full part of every production. And now you really don't go on shows without seeing a steady cam. By the way, at the beginning of my reel and at the end of my reel, there's a video of me at the Emmys on there where you can see me wearing the steady cam, and then there's a little movie that explains what it is probably better than I just did. Check that out. And really quickly, too, to our audience members, If you've seen aliens, you have actually seen a steady cam because the suit that some of the soldiers wear with the converted MG-42 machine gun hanging off the side of it.

That's actually a converted steady cam with a prop machine gun attached, a World War II machine gun attached. So you've seen a steady cam. And of course, there are innumerable, you know, famous shots, setty cam shots, Goodfellas, The Shining, obviously, and Dave will get into him. but you've seen the work of the Sidi-Cam. And like Dave said, the operator can go places that Dolly Track can't, and it looks smooth. And that was a remarkable creation. And do you remember that was 1970? It was in the 70s.

The movie, it's the Woody Guthrie story, and I always forget the name of the movie that it first came out on. But Garrett did the shot that was a step off of a crane into a crowd. It'll come back to me at some point. I can't think of the name. Great. And apparently when they showed it, like people just loved it. lost their minds. Like now we can't conceptualize it because it's just like we're so used to cameras going everywhere. But back then it was like, what's happened?

Exactly. Yeah. Had the camera just a ghost, picked it up off of the crane and carried it forward. Yeah, no, people just couldn't get their heads around how it was done. Which is, yeah, it's amazing. It was literally, literally something that he like locked himself in a motel for three weeks messing around with ideas and came up with this idea and put together a videotape of like him running around, which you can see on the internet. You can see on YouTube. Yeah. Like, you see on YouTube. And the great. thing is like he's totally 70s out with like the flared pants and the hair going back and everything. But it's like running around barbecues and stuff like that. It's amazing. Yeah.

So Dave, I'm here to ask the dumb questions because I know a lot less about how to actually operate what you're operating. And my first dumb question is something you said was you said, you know, and if you know what you're doing, you do X, Y, and Z. So as someone like me who does not know exactly what goes into actually operating the setty cam. What are you really controlling, other than holding this piece of equipment on your body as you're moving? What are the kind of things that you are keeping an eye on? Well, I mean, you're basically doing the exact same job as any operator, so you're framing the story. And I mean, at the end of the day, look, operating is 100% about story. And everything should, you know, story leads everything. If it actually becomes a repout

the shot, personally, I think you have not done your job well. And they've been just times where I've sort of looked at people and gone, I think this is becoming about the shot, and I don't think it should be about the shot, and we try to pull back, or I try to pull it back. But so, you know, I mean, telling the story, framing headroom, et cetera, et cetera, the same things that you're doing as an operator. But then you're also making, a lot of times you're walking backwards, so you have a spotter on you. You have, depending on the camera, anywhere from like maybe 40 to 65 pounds on you. And it's like wearing a backpack, but the thing is because of how the arm is and where the weight is,

Your center of gravity goes from being in the center of your body to slightly forward of your body. So you're actually leaning backwards. I mean, to quote unquote, master it, which to me means you could go onto a set and not worry that you're going to totally screw up is probably anywhere from like two to five years, I would think. And when I bought my first Steadicam, I actually ran around my apartment building. I was actually delivering prosthetic hips to hospitals in California, which is as amazing as it sounds. That is a Hollywood job as I've ever heard of one. I was like, if I'm going to go, I'm going to go big. And I was doing that during the day.

And at night, I would literally run around my apartment building, like, scaring people as they open their doors with this thing to try to figure out how to do it. And then actually, there used to be a company called FM Rocks that would do like six rap videos in a weekend. and I actually used to work there with and the cinematographer I worked with is Maddie Leiboutique who's become in awesome shockingly but if I could show you some of the things

that we did but the great thing was like we got paid nothing but they didn't care because they were like hey move that thing and so you learned how to use it because you could mess up

and it didn't make a difference but there's a tremendous amount of balance I mean to give you an idea like it's sort of like doing Tai Chi with like cement bags tied to you because you have to be extremely elegant with it and it's very finesse. And one of the things that you have to mess with, although now they're electronic stabilizers,

but I won't get into that, is the horizon because if you don't do it really well, it'll sort of like rock like a boat as you're going. And if you know what you're looking for, you can tell bad steadicam very, very easy. You can. And that's why it's on a pan, if it's on a really good city cam operator, that horizon line is so dead even. when you're panning. And then I feel like there's that slight tilt into the pan,

and that's instantly when you can tell. And there have been some movies I've watched recently where I'm like, oh, my God, that pan was so clean, so cleanly executed. It's just, yeah, and Dave, you set it up now for us to dive into our next question perfectly, which is, aside from needing to get away from the artificial hip industry,

what brought you? Right, exactly. He's still slinging them from the back of his car. Yeah, exactly. What drew you, you know, obviously to film in general? Because as you said, StadyCam operators are storytellers, and that's something that we're trying to get across throughout this entire series. Everybody that works on a film set is a storyteller.

They are all engaging very specific disciplines in order to help tell a story. But what brought you to camera operating and Stadicam operating in particular? Because it's obviously something that you have such a talent for, but it's also so specific. So I'm curious how you reached it. So when I was seven, I saw Star Wars, and I wanted to be a Jedi Knight. And then at some point, my entire world was dashed, and I realized that wasn't a thing. And then I thought, I want to be the people who, like, made the Jedi Knight or whatever.

And so I just wanted to be in film. And I grew up in Connecticut. It's like, you know, burgeoning film community there. And I had zero idea. And I was like, I guess you go to college for it. And so I went to NYU, which had its ups and downs. And then my sophomore year before the summer, two friends from Connecticut and I were like, let's get a car and go to California. And we were like, okay, because we were stupid and we had nothing to do.

And we drove out there and we got here. And I don't know really what I was thinking. I mean, I don't think I didn't really think I'd go and be like, hey, everybody's going to be like, Dave's here, you know. He made it. Wow. But I, yeah, I didn't think it through. A lot of my career has been not thinking things through, actually. And I got out here and we didn't have a place to stay.

So we stayed on the floor of, we stayed on the floor of my buddy's mother's college roommate who happened to be a producer for this. Yeah, of course, as it happens, who happened to be a producer for this company called Forward Productions. That, among other things, they did the waterworm in the abyss. Oh, wow. Terminator 2, which I ended up working with them. And she called them up and she's like, I got the kid here. You got to hire him.

You got to get him off my floor right now. Yeah, we'll pay you, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks a day or whatever. And you'll be a production assistant. And a production assistant for forward productions was basically like one day the cameraman was teaching me how to thread the camera. And another day I was like putting up girders on the ceiling. And another way they were teaching me how to how to weld and I mean, whatever. And I was working on this movie called Tremors, and I was just like, this is interesting. And I went back to school and just realized I'm paying a lot of money to basically learn.

I don't know what I'm doing. And I have to say, my parents are very educated, very professional people. My dad's a pediatric cardiologist. And I went to another one and I said, I'm dropping out of school and I'm going into the film industry. And they were like, okay. And they actually supported me in it. And they did not understand any of it. And to this day, by the way.

Yeah, they're still like, how's that career going? To this day, my dad will be like, he'll call me up. He'll be like, you're working? No? Because I'm freelance. You're going to any work coming up? Nothing right now. I'm like, so like it got to the point where I'd be lying.

I'd be like, yes, I have to go to work. I died because he can't handle the fact that I don't always know where my next job is coming from. But anyway, they really supported me. So I came out here and worked for Forward again because they said, if you ever come back, and I did this movie called Clifford with Martin Short that nobody ever heard of. And then Terminator 2, we did the nuclear blowing L.A. up. Amazing. And then I was kind of like, I want to be in the camera world and not breathe in toxic fumes all the time.

So I left there and got into camera assisting and then saw a steady cam, and it just blew my mind. and I literally was like, I have to do this, how do I do this? It was one of those weird things in your life that doesn't happen to most people where you go, that's what I'm going to do. And then somehow I was able to do it. I also have to say my dad is an amateur but very good photographer, and I spent a lot of my childhood, like, in the dark room developing and watching stuff develop.

And I think there's an innate sense of storytelling there. Well, and just the knowledge of how to frame an image. And as much as, you know, obviously the director in the cinema, are going to weigh in. But at the end of the day, getting to our next question, once the director and cinematographer step away, it's just you and the actors. It's this really intimate dance when you get to watch it. It's really cool. It's the best. Sometimes the actor leads. Sometimes you can tell the operators leading and the actors using them for positioning. Can you describe that relationship? Because very few people on set get to have such an intimate relationship with the actors. And could you

describe that relationship and how you improvise, you know, off of them and they off of you in order to get the shot that you need to tell the story. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, there's a lot to that question. You do, you know, one of the weird things about the film industry is like you're working with millionaires and these people who are massive stars and whatever. And so early on, I just decided, you know what, they're just people like everyone else and some of them or, you know, some of them are schmosed and some of them are cool and whatever. And so over the years, I've just sort of treated everybody like everybody else and that they were no more important, even though I will say an actor is in front of the camera and they're bearing themselves. And I

think that they have potentially a harder job than most other people on set for that. So, you know, one of the things that I was taught early on, or I learned early on, was that part of my job is, obviously my job is to frame and to tell the story and this and not the other. But the other, But the other part of that is to, and I don't know how to say this without sounding all woke, because I'm not intending to sound woke, but to create like a safe space for them where it's like, because I've been in situations where people are like, I mean, doing really, really emotional work. And I've had people look at me and go, I'm going to use you, okay? And I'm like, I'm here for you. And I'll literally like, back when I used to have, or when you're doing handheld, but back when we used to have our eye in the eyepiece all the time, which I don't anymore. which drives me nuts because the video ruins your eyes. There were times where I would keep my other eye open so I could make eye contact with them. And look, the reality is there are some actors

who literally are like, I don't like you here. You're like, this is going to be a fun couple of months. And then there are some actors who I've become really good friends with. And it's literally just because I'm like, yeah, you're an actor and you're this and that and the other. But I'm also this. I'll tell you, by the way, Jamie Lee Kerr, who just won an Academy Award last night, I could not be happier for her because she's the most

wonderful person in the entire world. Like everything you want Jamie Lee Curtis to be, she is. Oh, good. She's so great. And I worked with her on Scream Queens, too, or something like that, but she was like the first person on set and the last person and just the most professional. So you run into people like that who just like, you know, for every person who I won't say who you've worked with who you're like, wow, I don't know that I'd completely stop my car if you were crossing the street. No, that's terrible. That would never happen because I'd get my name in the paper. But, you know, then you meet people like that, and you're like, this is great.

But, you know, did that answer your question? I'm not sure if I answered your question. No, no. You were asking, sorry, you were asking also about sort of the dance and whatever, which with SteadyCam, there is a lot of it. And I think it's like everything else. Like, you can, you know, you can be dancing with the dancing partner and stepping all over their feet. And then you can dance with someone else and just everything falls into place. And there are sometimes where it just all works.

And I personally, if the director and the director of photography are hip to it and will allow me to it do it, I'll improvise a lot when I'm filming because there would just be moments where the best thing in the world, you mentioned that you're in there and the cameras rolling. It's like, you know, sets are, as you know, sets are chaos. It's like completely mildly controlled chaos, most likely not controlled chaos. And there's tons of noise and everybody's doing this and that and the other or whatever. And then the cameras roll and it's just everything gets really quiet. And then it's like, okay, now it's my turn and it's their turn. And it's the assistant's turn and my dolly grip's turn. And it's just this unbelievable, magical time.

And that to me, it's like, I mean, it's a drug. There's no question about it. But on that note, you're talking to me as a camera operator, but I'm nothing without my assistant and my dolly grip. And also, by the way, you know, our, our, our, our sound guy. I mean, you know, there's so many people who have to do that dance. I just did the last season of Snowfall. And we had a great assistant on that and Dolly Group I've worked with before. And within a week, we were all so in sync with each other that like something would happen.

And my assistant would just know that he was going to go to it wouldn't focus. And I would know that we were going to like frame differently. And the dolly group would do. And it's just becomes like jazz. I mean, and the thing about it, that's the best thing in the world for me is you could never plan that stuff. Like those are those magical moments where you catch something and everybody behind the monitor is just like, oh my God. And you're like, yeah, right? And then of course they go, let's do it again.

And you're like, it's not what I going to happen. Before Lizzie pops in with a quick question, I wanted to clarify something, which is that as you're operating the camera, there is another person on set who is pulling focus for you. And pulling focus means they are changing the focus distance of the lens in order to keep specific actors or objects in focus. And that's in two objects moving relative to one another that a third person then has to control the relative distance between them. So, and then, of course, as you mentioned, you have your dolly grip, maybe spotting, and then you've got your sound boom operator moving

in tandem behind you. There are a lot of people involved in this dance. So this is actually, that's actually what I wanted to ask because you said, like, sometimes I'll improvise when the director, you know, will allow me. And as you're rattling off the people that are kind of surrounding you. I'm envisioning you like some sort of like tentacled octopus. And it's, how do you, how are you able to improvise in that environment when you have that many people that are kind of coming with you and how do you work with them? Well, it doesn't, it doesn't always work. And you have to know who your people are to know if you can do that. But there are literally times with a really good boom operator, like Ozark was like this. I had a boom operator working with

is Jared, who was this great guy. And, you know, if something was going to change, I would just throw him a look and he would go, okay, something's happening. And, and, because, you know, I'm not, I don't know my, my eye up to the camera when I'm doing steady cam, my, my heads, you know, so I'll just throw him a nod and he'll know that something's happening. And then, you know, usually, it's usually not a whip pan or something like that. Right. But even, even that, you know, things like that can work. But what you end up doing is you end up hopefully, if you're doing it well and you're doing it right, recognizing what you can get away with and what you can't. I mean, obviously, because of lighting and because of this and that. And you have to keep in mind, like the director of photography, you don't want to,

you don't want to do something that's going to jeopardize what they've done. I think the other, the other thing I'll say, actually, is a lot of assistance and dolly groups that I work with, that I haven't worked with before. Within a week or two will go, oh, I see what's going on. Like, I have to be paying attention at every possible moment because this could change. But also, I will also try to be very wary of understanding that if I do a sudden lurch in and the assistant doesn't know about it, there's no way they're going to do it. So I don't want to throw them under the bus, you know? Right. And then a lot of times what will happen is, you know, we'll do take three and take four and take five and I'll put the steady cam down or even on the dolly and I'll go

up to the assistant. I'll go, look, I have a feeling making something up here. I have a feeling that he's going to step forward on this line because he seems to be doing it every time. And when he does it, I want to crush in on him. So just be ready for that. And they're like, okay, so you give him a heads up, you know. And then the other part of it to me, which is the beauty of all of this is if you're not prepared to fail, you're never going to do the, you're never going to get the good stuff. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like acting. It's like, you know, the great performances are always on that line of just being absolutely horrible, but they don't quite go there. You know, it's like, so I always, I always say to the assistants I work with in the Dolly group, you know, I'd rather you go for it and we screw up and I'll take the bullet than we don't ever try anything, too know? Yeah. But it, of course, depends on who you're working for. Yeah. Sounds like it just requires a lot of trust of all the, of you and all the people around you. Yeah, and sometimes it's not there and sometimes it doesn't work. But to me, that's where, that's, you know, that's sort of where the good stuff is. Totally. You also, you mentioned that your rig weighs, you said, what, like 40, 45 pounds? It depends on the camera and other things, yeah.

Yeah. What is that, I mean, as someone who just sits glued to a computer with no weight on them all day, I can't imagine what that does to your body. Oh, it's horrible. What is the sort of like, what's the actual physical toll of doing your job? I mean, that seems crazy. I hold my cat sometimes. He weighs like 12 pounds. Well, I don't know how big your cat is. Maybe you can. But the physical toll on me has actually been significant because I was, I've been doing this for 33 years or 32 years or something like that. And now I look at the same. steady cam and I'm like, oh, that's painful. But I, the reason I say that is because when I got into it, things were not, people, like, ergonomic wasn't a word. People are like, here, put this on and run around with it. And it's just like, should it hurt? Yeah, it should hurt because it makes me strong. Eat your Wheaties. So, yeah, I've, I've got a herniated disc that I've worked through and my shoulder has been screwed up and this and that and the other. So this business takes its toll on you.

And there are times I know for a fact that I show up on set and people are like, that's the study cam operator. And then they'll do this like, you know, this like, we're going to do this huge, huge steady cam shot down three things. And I'm like, or we could put a wide angle in the corner and just let the whole thing play. Because that would be organic. So you get really good at like talking people out of shots. Organic is a really good word to use the director's like. I might need to use that at my job. Yeah.

But no, I will say when I was younger, the big thing was recover. I have, it takes me a lot longer to recover from a big day than it used to be. But I still get through it. And I mean, I do a lot more stretching than I used to, that's for sure. But it does take its toll. There's no question. I'll also say that like when I get massages from like someone I haven't before, they usually get to my lower back and there's kind of like a poke.

And then they stop. And then they're sort of like, what exactly do you do for a living? I have sort of muscle groups there that most people don't have. Interesting. Yeah. I have a question that I think Lizzie follows up well on that one, which is we've obviously transitioned to digital capture for most projects at this point. Film is expensive, hard drives. Actually, economics are debatable when you really go into them.

Oh, completely. Yeah. I have a question. Yeah. And so in terms of the cost that might be borne by your crew, digital allows a lot of takes. And it allows a lot of takes when maybe you should take more time to figure out a better way to do the shot, for example. I don't want to speak for you, Dave, but I'm curious if you have felt that that getting more takes is overall an advantage for you, or is this just going to enable potentially bad, like sort of a let's just keep being. the dead horse behavior when it comes to capturing shots.

I totally think. I think digital has largely destroyed a large part of this industry. I hate to be that blunt. But the thing is, it used to be that you rehearsed because you had to get it right because you were expending something. Exactly. I mean, you can always get more film, but it's like, we only have 2,000 feet of film for the day or, you know, whatever.

And so you rehearsed it and you did it right. And now the thing is like, let's shoot the rehearsal. maybe magic will happen. And our thing is always like, that's always my favorite term though. Maybe magic will happen. And the thing that I always like, we've not even tried it. I know.

But the thing that I always want to go is like, first of all, magic doesn't happen. We're good at our jobs. That's what we're talking about. So let's call it what it is. But secondly, then you'll shoot the rehearsal and they'll be like, well, that didn't work. And it's like, yeah, that's because we never rehearsed it.

You know, and it's just like, and the other thing is that's weird is, you know, the study cam has like a post going through it with the camera on top. And when we went to digital, it took, me a little bit to get this through my head because what I realized was when I could feel the film vibrating through the, through the rig, I knew it was go time. Like, I knew something was happening. And it used to be that when we rolled film, like something, I don't want to put too big a thing on it, but like sort of something, something big was happening, you know, something was happening. And now it's like, whatever, we'll cut and we'll go again. But, you know, it drives me nuts.

I often ask him to cut just for the sake of the editors. And also, by the way, something else people don't think about is like we shoot two hours of digital. Our loader has to sit in the truck and download for two hours. So if we finish at the end of the night and there's an hour and a half of stuff to be downloaded, well, they get another hour and have to go. And processing those dailies is still expensive, very expensive, and getting them uploaded for the studio. And there are all sorts of costs that people don't. Think about when you're running. By the way, I don't want to go into a whole tangent, but one thing I'll mention is that people don't think about.

All of this digital stuff has to sit on some sort of medium, like a hard drive. And that hard drive has to be replaced every couple of years and it has to be run all the day. It's like a whole thing. Anyway. Yeah. We'll get into the environmental impacts at the end, Dave, because I did look into your background on that front as well. Not a big fan of digital. I mean, look, there are certain aspects of it that really makes it more accessible to people and there are good parts to it.

But overall, the times when I get to shoot film still is just like, ah, this is fantastic, you know. What's the last project you shot on film? The last project I shot on film was Widows with Steve McQueen. Oh, wow. Yeah, that movie looked great. Yeah, it was beautiful. It was Steve McQueen and Sean Bobbitt are like their dream team.

They're unbelievable. And you did shame with them as well. Yeah, that's great. That's where I met them. Actually, they had like no money. And I had an agent at the time, and he called me up. And he goes, these people, like, want to, they want you to come out. And I was just like, yes.

And he goes, what? And I said, do you have any idea who Steve McQueen is? Because he'd only done hunger. And he goes, no. And I was like, okay, first of all, we're going to have to talk. Yeah. I remember saying to him, I said, listen, I want to do this because I am never going to work with Martin Scorsese when he does mean streets, but I will work with Steve McQueen when he does his next movie.

And it was everything. He was phenomenal. What do you look for in a director? Like when you, is it just because you love their work? Or was it something about him in particular that you were like, I have to work with him? I didn't know anything about him. I just seen hunger. Have you ever seen hunger?

Yeah. I mean, hunger, the thing about hunger to me is it's a movie that nobody else could make. Someone else could make it, but it wouldn't be that movie. It has a vision and it has an imprint on it. And it's his movie. And I just thought, I thought it was a brilliant way to tell that story on every level. And so I was just so excited to work with someone like that because the reality is you work with really, really mediocre people a lot. And you work with a lot of crappy people.

I'm not only talking about directors. I'm talking about across the board. Sure. And occasionally you get to work with someone who's just stupendous of what they do. And to me, that's the most incredible time. And, you know, it's just like that's, that. that's what I got into this for it, you know. And he's just, he's just an incredible storyteller. He's amazing. And Sean Bobbitt, his cinematographer, is as well, the two of them together,

a dream team. Something that I've often noticed on set, and I'm sure you have, when a shot is not properly prepared or you're running behind on time, there can be a temptation to throw the camera on steady cam, and let's put it on steady cam and just kind of wing it. Can you walk us through you've talked about rehearsal and kind of I think what it takes to do a prepared shot can you tell me talk to me about the pain of having to do an unprepared shot as a storyteller on set and kind of help the audience understand like the cost of an unfocused shot as it reverberates through you know starting with you all the way down to the edit you know what I'm saying in terms of how it works yeah and also like are there shots where you felt uncomfortable or been

asked to do something where you felt unsafe or uncomfortable Unsafe, they definitely have. I mean, everybody has. It's just the way that it is. Hopefully people listen to you that. But yeah, to your question, it's just like there's this thing of like, I don't know, we're not quite sure what it is, but let's just put the Steadycam on and sort of find it. Let's find it.

And it's just always like, first of all, who is we? Who's the less in this? Because it seems like only one of us is going to hold the Steadycam. It's, it's, look, there's a certain part of that that drives me nuts because it's like, I don't know what you did during prep, but your job was to figure out what this was. And nine times out of ten, it's because they don't know. And unfortunately, one of the things that happens, both with handheld and with Steadicam, is sort of like, well, and nobody will say this, but it's like, the scene really isn't working.

So let's just give it some movement. And it's just like, that's not the answer. Of course, by that point, you know, you're not rewriting or whatever. So then what you end up doing as a Steadicam operator, and I'm assuming you're talking about a situation maybe where the director is not as involved in sort of going, hey, you go in there and figure it out, and then I'll look good. And, you know, so there is, I will say, a sort of, that can be kind of fun, to be perfectly honest.

I recently did a show with a scene with seven actors, and it was clear that the director did not have a job. And the AD was, I have an idea. He didn't have a job after that. That's not the way the business works, unfortunately, because someone did a good job, and he's going to put it on his real. But then what you do is you go, okay, so let's sort of like just, okay, let's have the actors walk through it and see where we're going and see kind of what falls in. And then you sort of find some sort of a master. But then as you're going, you're literally in your head going, okay, we're going to have to come back and we're going to get that piece. We're going to have to get that piece. And then this piece can connect to that piece. So there is sort of a fun aspect to that. But the thing that drives me nuts is nine times out of ten at the end of the day, one. what you end up with was, yeah, the scene works.

And it's just like, we're not in, I'm not in the business to go, it works. I'm in the business to go, you had a great idea. Because my thing is always, there's so much that goes on before I ever get, you know, handed the camera that I can't control, right? So I can't control the writing. I can't control the casting. I can control so many things. So my thing is always the way, the way I view my job or the way I,

view an operator's job is my job is to take what they've given me and make it better, right? It's to push the, push the, you know, push the boulder up the hill a little bit. And if I've done that, then I think I've done my job. But if the boulder's at the bottom of the hell when they give it to me, I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah, sure, I improved it, but it doesn't make it good, do you know? So that can be very frustrating. Like I said, it also is sort of liberating because you're like, oh, no. really has an opinion, so I'll, let's do this, you know. And there are times where we've come up

with something really good. But that said, and I mentor a lot of younger operators, and I always tell them this, that is where understanding the story and the script, like, to the endth degree comes in, because you totally know why the characters are doing, what they're doing, and where it's going, and, oh, this person has to have that moment and this and that and the other, which you shouldn't, because it's not your job, it's someone else's job, but sometimes you have to be there. And sometimes we'll be in there and be like, hey, don't we need this moment here? Why? Well, because like four scenes from now, like she's going to have this thing going.

Oh, yeah, we have to get that. That's, yeah, absolutely. And you're like, why am I coming up with this? But, you know, that's the way I look at it. So it's like, you know, you read the script over and over and over just so you know it, like, the back of your hand, hopefully. You know, it's interesting what you just said about, like, you needing to also know because you're going to be able to sort of pick things up. It reminded me a little bit of,

we also recently interviewed an intimacy coordinator, and she said something sort of similar, where she was, like, talking to Michaela Cole, and Michaela Cole is, like, walking her through a whole scene, and Eda, the intimacy coordinator, was like, well, none of this is on the page. Yeah. And it's, it's, there's something so interesting

about the filmmaking process that, like, so much prep and groundwork really has to happen, and everybody has to be part of that information resource because everyone is part of the story that has to be told. 100%. It's so cool to hear you talk about this. It's really easy to think, like, the script is for the actors to know their lines.

Yeah. The script is the blueprint for every single person on set to understand where they are in the story and how that part of the story is going to be told at any particular moment. Yeah. No, it's the Bible. I mean, I'll go and highlight stuff for moments

that we can make sure we get. And, you know, the reality is, the hope is that someone's going to tell me all that, right? Because someone else should have the idea. And I may be wrong. I mean, at the end of the day, there are a lot of times where I'm like, all right, I'm going to do that. I think you're wrong, but I'm going to do that because that's my job. And I've been wrong, you know, because I just haven't, I'm not seeing it the way that they're seeing it. But at the end of the day, it's the director's vision that you're trying to get out there, right? It's not your vision, because that's not who you are. And I've actually directed before. So I've been on that side of it, too. So it's like a whole, that's a whole different thing.

But yeah, I mean, you know, so it's, by the way, I love the intimacy coordinator interview. It was great. There's our plug. Go listen to it, guys. Yes, you all should listen to it. It's really great because it's this fascinating job that I don't think people understand. And I was saying to Chris before you came on that one of the things that kind of amazes me with the really good ones is they'll check in with me. And they'll be like, hey, how are you doing?

And I'm like, really? So I'm doing all right. because, you know, it's a weird thing to be involved. Yeah, you're in there too. You're probably closer than a lot of other people. Oh, yeah. There's no question about it. So, yeah.

Let's hop to the next question. Okay. We'll give you a moment to think. My question is, which shot are you most proud of in your entire career? But while you think about that for one second, I have a Donnie Darko question. I thought you were just going to go straight to Donnie Darko. Yeah. Why is it this shot in Donnie Darko?

I've picked out. Early in the film, his first on-screen sleepwalking incident, you go down the stairs, and then there is a push towards the door where you tilt up

to the chandelier. And then you come down as the door is closing. And we never actually see him enter or leave frame. And that's one of my, that's one of my favorite shots. Oh, really?

Hey, you know what? Props to you because that's the shot nobody ever. brings up. I kind of forgot about that shot. I do like that shot. I thought, I initially, I was like, oh, maybe that's a dolly shot. But then I, but the more I thought about it, no, that was probably a steady cam shot. I think it's a steady cam shot because I, because I had to bring him down and sort of like, and dance around with him and go up as he went down. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that anyway, I just wanted to say, that is my nerding out. That's my favorite shot.

That's actually one of my favorite shots ever, but it's certainly my favorite shot in that movie. And in terms of telling the story, here's why I love that shot. you guide him out of the house, but no one sees him leave, and you don't let us see him leave either. And you plant the chandelier, which is going to come in when the airplane hits in the following scene. And it's great. It's a brilliant example of everything you're talking about, where it's like the camera is operating in perfect harmony with both the story and the lead actor and character. And it tells you everything you need to know. But again, it's not showy.

It's not, you know what I mean? Like I noticed it because I've watched that movie so many times. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Anywho, so great example. Well, that's great, thank you. I will tell you, without even knowing, that's 100% Richard Kelly. Richard Kelly knew every inch of that movie and did not listen to anybody because he knew it so well and he was right. Yeah, no, clearly he was.

100% right. It was kind of astonishing. But I will say you said something that you weren't sure if it was a dolly shot, you weren't sure if a Steadycam shot. So to me, that means that it worked because the thing. is you should never think about, I mean, you're a couple, you know, a couple showings in, but you should never think about it. The guy who trained me in Steadicam, Bob Crone was his name. He sat us down and he talked to us about the business of study cam or whatever. And he said, the irony of what we do is that if we've done it well, nobody will ever know we did it.

And I always thought that was great. It's like, because if they're watching your shot, then they're not watching the movie. So that's cool. Thank you. You know, favorite shots are there. It's sort of hard to pull out, but the one that I kind of am really proud of is there's a shot in shame that is in the subway and follows him up the stairs and then comes around very slowly. And the thing that I like about it is it's the freneticism of he's looking for this woman and he can't find her. And he's sort of dodging people and whatever. And we did, we did. And that was the first shot I ever did with Sean and Steve actually.

and those stairs were pretty hard. But we did like one or two takes, and Sean came over to me, and it was like, it doesn't have the feeling that I want. And I said, you know what? I know what it is. And I pulled the AD over, and I said, do you mind if I talked to the extras? She said, yeah. And I called them over. I said, hey, I'm Dave, and steady cam operator, I'm going, you know what I'm doing now, right? I said, don't get out of my way.

And they were like, huh? I said, don't get out of my way. Make me go around you. I mean, don't hit me. Don't purpose. But if I'm coming at you, make me go. And I said, here's the thing. he has to dodge you, so I have to dodge you.

And they don't do as much as I would have liked, but they do enough that I'm trying to keep up with him. And then when it gets up to the top and he realizes that she's gone, it totally smooths out. And it's a really complicated shot to do. And the thing to me is the reason besides the technical aspects of it are just, I think it's a great way to tell that story. And I will say the person who deserves the most props for that shot

is Ludovic Liddy. who is now a great DP, but it was the focus puller. That was on film. And at the very top of the thing, I come around and I'm like, oh, it's going great and it's going great. And we come into Michael Fastbender's thing. And at the last minute, he just leans back. And I went, ah, because it was like, we didn't, it was just, it was so imperceptible,

but I knew exactly what it was. And I, and we watch him go down the stairs and we cut and I turned to Ludo. And I said, Ludo, and he goes, I got it. And I was like, yeah. And that was film. So there was no, you know, there's no playback. whatever, but he knew exactly what I was worried about, but he was on it. And if he hadn't been, that shot wouldn't have been usable. So that's so cool. They're just like that shot, there

are so many nuances in that shot that I love. So, well, and as soon as, because I know what shot you're talking about, I mean, it's, it's an incredible, it's such an anxiety-inducing segment. And hearing you talk about that is just so, so cool. Because like that, that, that shot just wouldn't, it wouldn't make me feel the way that it does if you hadn't, it hadn't done that. That means we did our job. I mean, but it's a full team, right? It's like the ADs and it's Michael and it's me and it's the cinematographer. It's like all that.

And the main thing to me is like, yeah, you have this really hard part of the job, but everybody has hard stuff. And it's just like, you don't want to drop the ball. Like you're like, let someone else drop the ball if it doesn't work, but I don't want to be the one to drop the ball. There's also the famous one that everybody sort of talks about is there's a shot in West Wing and an episode called Five Votes Down. It's episode three or four.

And it's this massive shot in the Biltmore Hotel. And I just think of it because, I mean, I'm very proud of it, but it was like two flights of stairs. And I mean, it was insanely big to the point that I was the operator in West Wing. And they go, hey, we got this idea for a shop, but we're not sure it's doable. And they kept me on the clock after we wrapped to drive down to the Biltmore to walk through it. And they were like, can you do this? And I was, I don't know, 29 or whatever. And I was like, yeah, sure.

And the next day I'm thinking of myself, like, what the hell? I think we did 16 takes of it. And the one that's in there, I think, is take 11. And I remember very specifically that I think it was either take 9 or take 7, where just it's one of those things where everything worked. Like, everything works. And sometimes you just know, like, you're doing it. You're like, this is it. And then, of course, they say they want another one.

And you're like, I'm going to kill everybody here. But everything was working. And we got to the very end where there's really nothing left to do but just walk backwards and finish up. And I kicked the steady cam with my knee. And it went up in the air. And I literally, I was like, oh, my, and I remember Martin Sheen goes, oh, man. And I was, and I just, it was absolutely horrible.

And I'll tell you something. I don't tell a lot of people this. I went over into a corner and I literally thought I was going to cry. I was so upset with myself. And I was just like, because you never want to drop the ball, right? And everything was going so well. I forgot about this. I mean, I remember about it, but I can't believe I'm telling you this.

And I'm standing there, and I feel a hand on my shoulder, and I realize that Brad Whitford, who's the funniest person in the world and still a good friend of mine. And he comes up to me, and he comes very, like, like, unnaturally close to my ear. And he quietly goes, you're a huge disappointment. He just walked away. And I remember thinking like, yeah, okay. And, you know, then I walked upstairs. And actually, I walked upstairs,

and by the time I got there, Martin came and, like, patting me on the back and sort of grab my neck and squeeze me. And it was his way of going, like, you know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean, you know, they were great people. It's great. I feel like having Bradley Woodford call you a huge disappointment would be an amazing bucket list item that we all should go for. Brad Whitford on West Wing. I just ran into him in a plane, actually, like two weeks ago we were talking about this. There was one shot on West Wing. I remember

why he had a, he had a, what do you call it? He had a scarf in the scene. And they said, all right, we're up. And I had my study cam, you know, my arm on, and I was about to put the rig on. And he flipped his scarf back and turned to me and said, pick up your tools of ignorance, camera boy and follow me to greatness and then walked out the room. And I, to this day, it's like one of the funniest things anyone's ever said to me. He's, he's as funny as you would think he is. He's so funny. Yeah, yeah. And we could talk about Brad Woodford. No, I know. Actually, but I'll tell you one other thing is like I got on the plane and, of course, he's in first class and I saw him and he saw me and he starts pushing the thing. So I go back and I sit in steerage and I texted him and he texts me back

and he says, I don't understand why are text from the common people reaching first class? Yeah, he's correct. Anyway. Yeah. Well, Dave, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. So much of a pleasure that we're actually, we're going to talk to Dave on another episode as well. So you're not rid of him yet.

And Chris, I know you wanted to share a little bit before we sign off as well. Yeah, Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. It has been a true pleasure. And for all of our listeners out there, you can learn more about Dave. Obviously, you can, I am to be him. You can watch his work. Or you can also go to his website, theop.io, that is t-h-e-op. There you can explore a ton of resources that he has made available as someone who has been on more sets than most of us can dream to be in our lifetimes.

Dave, thank you again for giving us this time, your incredible experience, and your stories. we deeply appreciate it. Well, thank you. This was an absolute blast. I am a huge, huge fan of your podcast. And I, hang on, I just want to read this correctly. It's the hands-down best podcast ever created. Is that how I'm saying?

Thank you. Yeah, that's a full stop. That's the line we gave to you. But no, it really is. I emailed you guys simply because I'm a huge fan. And ever since I heard the island of Dr. Moreau, which I listened to almost nightly, I love it.

But this has actually been really great, and I so appreciate it. And to anyone out there listening, if you want to really understand who I am, you can go to Instagram and look up hashtag Dave's Down. So that's the meat and potatoes right there. I highly recommend it. I'm doing it right now. I don't want to spoil what it is. I highly recommend it.

We'll link to it through the What Went Wrong Instagram as well. Thanks, guys, for listening. Thank you, patrons, for supporting us. And until next time, this has been Chris Winterbauer and Lizzie Bassett. it was What Went Wrong. Bye. What Went Wrong is a sad boom podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Editing Music by David Bowman with cover art from Uthano Youos.