When Reality Hits with Jax and Brittany - Breaking the Narcissist Cycle with Dr. Z

Episode Date: August 1, 2025

This week on When Reality Hits, Brittany is joined by clinical psychologist and narcissism expert Dr. Jaime Zuckerman for one of her most vulnerable and powerful episodes yet. From love bombing and gaslighting to financial control and co-parenting with a narcissist, Dr. Z breaks down the manipulative patterns of narcissistic abuse—and how to heal from them. Brittany opens up about her very public divorce, the emotional toll behind the scenes, and how she's finally getting her sparkle back.Follow Dr. Z: @drz_psychologistPlease support the show by checking out our sponsors!Tempo: For a limited time, Tempo is offering my listeners 60% off your first box! Go to TempoMeals.com/REALITYHITSK12 Powered Schools: Go to K12.com/BRITTANY today to find a tuition-free K12-powered school near you and enrollnowCornbread: Right now, When Reality Hits listeners can save 30% on their first order! Just head to cornbreadhemp.com/REALITY and use code REALITY at checkout. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of when reality hits. We're switching it up this time because reality is really hitting. And I have an amazing guest on who I have so many questions for. it is Dr. Jamie Zckerman. Dr. Z. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Thanks for having me. Of course. Thanks for coming on. I'm going to read a little bit about you just so that our listeners know exactly what you do and what you're about. So Dr. Jamie Zuckerman is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and nationally recognized expert in narcissistic abuse. She is a highly sought-after relationship coach for those experiencing narcissistic abuse in relationships of all types and is the owner of the Z group, a private group therapy practice specializing in anxiety, depression, and complex relationship dynamics. Dr. Z is influential social media personality in the mental health space and is a frequent media contributor.

She has been featured in numerous print and digital platforms and appears regularly on. on both local and national TV segments and news programs. She is also the host of her own podcast, Next Up Narcissism, where she tackles the tough conversations around narcissistic relationships and mental health. Dr. Z is the author of two bestselling interactive workbooks, find your calm, focus on managing anxiety, and find good habits. Geared towards daily goal setting and personal growth, her upcoming third book set to release in winter 2020,

26 will offer readers behavioral strategies to navigate narcissistic abuse in their relationships and the tools necessary to leave safely and begin healing. That is amazing. Thank you. I know. I'm listening. I'm like, when did I don't know when I do it. Well, you did it all.

I just wanted to read that so the listeners know exactly what you do, how qualified you are, all the amazing work that you do. I would like to go back to the beginning before we get into the juicy stuff. What got you started in this field? Yeah. So many moons ago when I went into private practice, I saw mostly women, but a lot of people were coming in with anxiety, depression, stressful relationships, run-of-the-mill, everyday stuff. But what I started to notice was that some of these relationships were very, very similar, right?

And there was a very distinct blueprint to them. And, you know, I say this a lot. ironically, when I was in graduate school, and I think many people in my cohort will agree with me on this, that at the time, we didn't really talk about narcissistic personality disorder. We did, but it was not really something that we went into. It was borderline personality disorder we talked about, but not narcissism. And so when I started working with these women, became very clear that this is what was going on. And it was a very distinct blueprint, very specific kind of behavioral template.

And it was something that really wasn't talked about. They were very alone. They didn't even know how to describe what was happening to them because it was so confusing. And I just, I realized there was this, this need for people to learn how to navigate that and know that they're not alone. Yes. I mean, I agree. I feel like it's talked about a lot more now, but I had never even heard that word years ago, you know. Do you know much about my story?

Mm-hmm. Okay. I've gone through, you know, I'm going through a very public divorce and with someone who will say that he is a narcissist, like he has said that himself. So it's out there. It's been talked about. It's been very public. A lot of times people will write comments to me and say different things like they don't have sympathy for my situation because I should have seen the red flags. What are some red flags that you think people should be aware of?

Yeah. So before I even go into the red flags, I just want people listening to know that it sounds very easy to say, how did you not recognize them? How did you not know? But narcissists are master manipulators. And a lot of the red flags fly under the radar. You'd be surprised. And so you don't even know that it's happening. So it's very easy on the outside to say you should have seen it. Yeah. So red flags could be, you know, it's not just. calling for the person quickly. It feels like a tidal wave. The relationship is so quick and so extreme and so passionate and intimate. And it's not just connecting with someone. It's more than that. It's over the top. And the reason for that is because the more in the clouds you are, the less present you are with the reality of the situation. So it's kind of like they keep you just in this fog for so long. You don't even realize what's happening. So that is a very big red flag um when you initially start dating them the degree of contact is extreme so constant

text messages sending you flowers taking you on vacations but it doesn't even have to be anything lavish they could let's say you love hiking they don't give a crap about hiking but what they'll do is they'll they'll they will research it or they'll you know figure it out or they'll take you hiking and make it like oh look we have these things in common the so that doesn't seem extreme, but the purpose of it is very manipulative. So there's that. I would also say things like they slowly start to isolate you from family and friends, but it's not, it doesn't seem like that. It seems more like spending so much time together that you just, oh, I haven't seen my friends in so long. I haven't seen my family in so long. I haven't talked to anyone. So those are

some other red flags that are things you want to look out for. And the hard part is, it feels really good. Yeah. When you're in this, it's really hard to not want to be in it. A lot of this is love bombing. Yes. Right?

Okay. I felt like that's something that a lot of people deal with. And I thought it was important to have you on because I've noticed while sharing my story so publicly, so many women have reached out to me

about dealing with the same types of things and, you know, trying to leave a situation and everything else. And I think a lot of people don't understand like love bombing and how like serious it could be because you could fight with somebody really bad and then 30 minutes later it's like nothing ever happened that's right and then everything is just like perfect and good again and unless you're like in that type of situation you don't really understand how it feels no and the other thing too is you know it the whole point

of love bombing is to make you feel vulnerable and make you feel like you feel like you can trust this person 100%. So another red flag would be if you find yourself talking about your deepest darkest secrets that only your best friend knows, let's say. And you're sharing this on date number one or date number two, that's a red flag. Even though it seems like it's a good thing, it's not. If they're saying, where have you been all my life? I've never met anyone like you. You're my soulmate. I've never felt this way before. I feel like I've known you in a previous life. We have our own language. All of those types of things. It's not that you're not lovely. It's not that people can't connect.

But at that point, you don't even know their middle name. You know nothing about them. So what are you basing that on? So, again, it feels good, but it's not good. Yeah. And that's kind of crazy because you would be thinking about it like, wow, this person's really easy to talk to and, like, connects with me. And I feel comfortable being able to share these, like, deepest, darkest secrets.

And then I feel like a lot of times they're used against you. I was just going to say that the whole reason for that to keep you, vulnerable and to give you give them your vulnerabilities and the things you're insecure about because then later on in the relationship that's what they use against you because they know it's it's your your your weakness or your buttons that they like to push yes so you did a post on your instagram and let's see it was let's see her instagram is dr z underscore psychologist so you guys can check her out um five subtle things narcissists do early on to gain control of you and number one was convinced you to move in

ASAP and that is crazy because I moved from Kentucky to LA like three months in yeah away from family and friends yeah like it was very very very very fast yeah number two was flirty talks of marriage and kids almost immediately three quickly introduce you to their kids like you're a new family member for people voice concerns but the narcissist says that they're just jealous which is crazy um five suggest you quit your job so they can take care of you yeah yeah and and the purpose of all those behaviors on the surface they all seem different but the underlying function of all them is exactly the same all to gain control over you goodness i just feel like i didn't know very much about this and you had said many times like people need to know the tools yes because they might

not have realized it in the beginning and then you're in a relationship for however many years and then you're kind of stuck wondering how you can leave yes do you have tips for women or men because I'm sure it's not just women it might mainly be women but I know there has to be men that go through this as well oh sure yeah it looks a little bit different but there's there's definitely men that go through this. Yes. Do you have tips for people to leave a relationship like this safely? Yes. So in the beginning, when you are preparing to leave, I always tell people it's on average seven times before you actually leave the relationship. So it's okay if you go back. Wait, you think people try to leave like seven times before they actually leave? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

Yeah, because they don't have the skill set or, you know, their love bomb back into it or they don't have any access to finances. They don't, you know, the legal drama that happens is just too much for them or they're getting threats and violence. There's so many reasons why people go back, right? So, you know, from a safety standpoint, safety is the number one thing. Yes. But before you even leave, there's a lot of things you need to do behind the scenes so that when you leave it makes it. less likely for you to come back. And you never want to tell your partner that you're thinking about leaving.

You do not say anything. Okay. Things like you want to contact an attorney. If there's children involved, make sure it's somebody that understands that because if you leave, you want to make sure that they can't say you're abandoning the children or that you're taking their children from them. So there's that. You want to figure out where all your finances are, right?

All your passwords, all your investments, because a lot of times there is, a ton of financial abuse that's going on behind the scenes. There's credit cards taken out in people's names. There's tons of debt. So you really want to be very mindful where your finances are, which, you know, we think we know. And then when you start digging, a lot of my clients, this happens, they start digging. And then it's, it's this rabbit hole of things they never even knew were occurring. Yes.

Very common. And a lot of people don't understand how a wife or a girlfriend wouldn't know those things beforehand. Absolutely. And it's because they, you know, finances is a very big way to control you. So they make you think you're not capable, you're not smart enough. Or, you know, you're so bad with finances. I'll handle it. Yeah.

You're so bad with money. Let me take care of it. So a lawyer, you want to talk to a financial planner or at least just know where your finances are. You want to make sure that you have money separate from your partner, whether that's a friend is holding it for you. You can safely open another account. set up another account, figure out what your name is on and what your name is not on.

So make sure you have access to finances. Make sure you have at least one person who is a social support for you, who when you start doubting yourself or maybe I overreacted or maybe I'm being too dramatic or what if they're different or what if they're changing, that person's on the outside of the fishbow, I like to say, and they can reach in and pull you back out. Yes. And if you have been disconnected from friends and family, which is very common and you've feel very isolated and maybe all your friends are their friends and they're threatening that

you'll have no friends if you leave me. I promise you that your loved ones, you find the person you feel most comfortable with, they're going to be so happy that you came to them because most of the time they've been waiting for this for a very long time. Yeah. I was told many times that I didn't have any friends and that, you know, they wouldn't be there for me. They were just trying to use me for popularity or some kind of gain from like, you know, the TV shows and different things like that. I was told that many times, but I was lucky enough that even though I met most of my friends through my ex, I made real friends. And, like, they have my back and they've really helped me. Like, I'm so lucky that I have, like, an L.A. family because

all my family's back in Kentucky. But I've always been so close to my family. Like, nothing was ever going to change that. You know. But I did move all the way from Kentucky to L.A. So I was able to make real connections. And like you said, like they love you and they will support you. And you can't like listen and believe everything because that can be, you know, you start hearing the same things over and over and over. And sometimes it's easy to believe those things.

Absolutely. And because, you know, you want to believe it. That's the thing is you want so badly to believe. it you want to believe that this person can change you want to believe that people are inherently good and all of these things and so it's really difficult to accept that this person is a aware that they're causing you harm and be has very little remorse or no remorse or accountability about it so it's it's it's very hard to wrap your brain around that because our brains just don't operate like that yeah and you're kind of blinded by the love in a way yeah and also you know

The way that narcissistic abuse works, it's called intermittent abuse, meaning it's like gambling. So it's similar to an addiction. You never know what you're going to get. You really have no control over when they're going to do it. It could be, you know, you could make dinner for them one night and they love it and then make them the same dinner the next night and they throw the plate against the wall and start berating you and you're terrible. So you never know when you're going to get whatever the abuse is. You never know. And so you're constantly hyper alert.

You're constantly walking on eggshells. And when that happens over a prolonged period of time and the gaslighting and making you doubt your decisions and your reality, your brain actually starts to change. So it's not even just, you know, but I love them or even, you know, maybe they'll change. It's the brain chemistry has actually shifted for you. And so you're in this almost as if it's an addiction. it. And that's how you have to treat it. Wow. Hey guys. As a parent, you want to empower your child to succeed now and in the future. Of course, we all want the best for our kids. K-12 can help your child reach their full potential

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restrictions may apply. Yeah, I've, every since I've been talking about this, you know how your phone, Like, I feel like your phone listens to everything you say. And now all of a sudden, all over my Instagram and everything else, I see stuff like that all the time. And I have definitely seen other people talking about that, about how your brain, like, actually changes. And it's kind of like you're battling an addiction. What are some things, like for people that have left, like for me, for instance, some like ways to begin healing? Yeah. Because I feel like that's super important.

Yeah. I'm still healing myself. It gets a little difficult, not difficult. It just gets a little bit more complex when there's a child involved, right? But putting that aside for a second, one of the most important things is that you have to set boundaries. And I know it sounds cliche, but you really need to set boundaries. But they have to be boundaries that match the purpose of the person's behavior. So for example, if they're texting you novels of just hate.

Right. Just ongoing, just brutally, psychologically, emotionally abusive text messages. Rather than responding to the words and what they're actually saying on the surface, you have to ask yourself, okay, why at this very moment are they doing this right now? You know, is it my birthday? Do they know that I'm out? Do they know that I'm enjoying myself? What is the purpose of doing this right now at this moment? And it's always going to be control manipulation of trying to get at your emotions. And so that's common that if somebody's traveling or if somebody's doing something, that that's whenever, okay, because that's, that happens to me a lot. I'm not trying to, I want this to be broad because I wanted to, you know, talk about it because so many other women are going through this. But I've noticed that as a pattern. Like if I'm traveling or going to be on watch happens live or going to be on a TV show or anything like that, that's whenever weird stuff. starts coming in. That's right. That's exactly right. That's when emergencies happen. That's when they

start berating you. That's when they tell you they love you. It's going to be, it doesn't have to be negative. It can be positive, but it's just trying to gain access again to your emotions when you need to be present for something else because they're not a part of it. So they need to make sure that they are. So when those types of messages come in or whatever behavior they're doing, you respond to the function of it, not what it looks like on the surface. So if it's control and power, they're trying to gain over you, you don't respond. That's something I'm not going to lie. That's something that has been hard for me. I've gotten a lot better at that now, like especially like within the past like couple of months. But that was something that was hard because I'm such a people

pleaser. I know that about myself. I'm very much like hoping for the best in everybody and hoping that people can change and stuff like that. So I was letting messages and things like soak into my day and ruin my day. I always call it that I was like losing my sparkle and I'm trying to get my sparkle back. That's exactly. But they know that. Yeah. That they don't want that because that means they're losing control over you. And that's like the worst feeling ever for somebody that's a narcissist, right? Yeah, losing control. It absolutely is because, you know, the reason why a narcissist gravitates towards a particular person in a relationship, you know, a lot of people have this misconception that they go for people who are weak, who don't have good self-esteem. And that's not true.

It's the opposite. They go for people who are very loving and nurturing and confident and, you know, that make them look good. They like the way they feel around that person. And so when a narcissist gravitates towards that, their whole purpose is exactly like you said, steal your sparkle. So they're not going to go for somebody with low self-esteem because there's nothing to take from them. They're of no use to them. So somebody who has all of that, the narcissist wants it and takes it. What we see at the end maybe is somebody with low self-esteem because of the abuse they've endured. But that's very common.

And so, you know, when you travel, when they know you have something big. you want to as much as you can, which I know for you is probably very difficult, to not share some of the things that you're doing if right now it's difficult for you to set those, let's say, texting boundaries. I did. I have set way better boundaries recently, but it took me a while. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you think a narcissist is actually capable of love? No, I don't. Okay. You know, they will And this is, I'm talking with someone with true narcissistic personality. Yeah.

They will imitate love. They will act like they love somebody. But there's always going to be a purpose for why they're doing it. Either it makes them look good or they get something or it makes the person feel comfortable with them. It kind of locks them into the relationship. But they're not capable of love the way that you and I are capable of loving somebody. Okay.

I feel the same. I mean, it's hard because you feel like so sad trying to get out of a relationship whenever you still feel like you're in love with somebody. And then I feel like it's turned around on me a lot. Like I was the one who just threw it all the way, through the relationship away and things like that. But in reality, I was the one that was heartbroken. And I was the one that was like having to leave somebody. I was still felt like I was in love with.

And your behaviors were very much a response and a very normal response to abusive, you know, psychological, emotional, financial infidelity, all that. Your responses were completely appropriate. Okay. You were made to feel that they were not. And so the actions you took, which are very normal and healthy, right, to get out of the relationship, you know, the lack of accountability on that. their part. It's very common. They're going to put that on you. You're not going to give this

another shot. You're throwing this all away, you know, because they know that that's going to target that guilt and that shame for you. They play into that rather than acknowledging all of the stuff that they've done and your responses to them are completely appropriate. Do you think a narcissist can change? No. I like at all. No. Even with therapy and work and different things. Yeah. So here's why. And I always preface this because I get asked this a lot. As a psychologist, in my heart, and this is why I do it and in my gut, I, I, everybody can change, right? Everybody can do the hard work and change. So for me to say that somebody can't change is really difficult for me, but they can't change. The most you can hope for is maybe a small sliver of

shift of behavior in a session with a therapist, but it doesn't translate outside. And they don't go to therapy because they're totally fine how they are. It's everybody else's problem. And it's why I really strongly advise against couples therapy for the narcissist. You never want to go that route. I always felt like couples therapy was not at all. I felt like it would make me more angry, leaving or being in that situation because I feel like every time it would be turned all

on me. That's right. And the danger is if you get a therapist who, let's say, doesn't acknowledge or doesn't see that there's somebody in the relationship that's a narcissist, it's very easy for the narcissist to charm therapists. Yes. You look like you're not commuting and they make it a communication

issue. And they'll tell you to go on date night. So now you look bad if you go on date night or you refuse to go on date night, but you don't want to go on date night because it ends up in this blowout argument. So the other thing is you're not going to maybe voice what's really going on because you need to drive home with this person and being in a car with an angry narcissist is not where you want to be. You need to put your head on the pillow at night with them and they'll keep you up for all hours screaming at you. So you're not even going to

feel safe saying anything. Wow. I mean, I got to talk to you off the podcast because There's just so much that I could say. So knowing what you know about my relationship, what kind of advice would you have for me? Or how do you think I've handled things? I just want to hear what you think as being someone who, you know, knows so much about this. I think that the lack of accountability is flaring. And the effort to make this situation not look as bad as it is is very apparent as well. And so for you, you know, the social support you have, and I say this for anything, social support is the best predictor of success in anything, even more than therapy, you know, even more than anything.

So that social support is huge for you because they have an objective view. of what's going on. And if you start to slip back into old patterns, they're going to, you know, Brittany, nope. Hold you accountable for sure. I always say that being on the show like helped me so much, actually, like hold myself accountable and really like see everything for what it was. Yep.

I think the big thing is when you, if you, because at some point this will happen, you will engage in a conversation with them, whether it's text, whether it's in person, it doesn't matter. At some point it's going to happen. and you want to make sure that you don't respond to the words that he's saying,

the accusations that he's making, you have to remember that what he's saying has a deliberate function and it's to get access to your emotions. To your response needs to be very neutral. That doesn't mean that you, you know, neutral isn't rolling your eyes. Neutral isn't, you know, telling them, leave me alone and walk away. neutral is literally i'm not going to give you anything i am a blank slate because then they have nothing to kind of sink into and you become boring okay so you want to become as boring as possible because it is definitely hard i'm sure for other people out there not to get angry and want to

like go off whatever somebody yeah yeah and you will and i tell people when that comes up for you it's because you have to remember that's a completely normal human emotion to what is being thrown at you you feel nothing your feeling is wrong nothing and so you feel that feel it all you want the what what i think that the issue becomes is when we respond out of anger rather than respond with what is consistent with our boundaries and our values right because then it just kind of respond out of anger right and that just is it's so frustrating like so frustrating because it's like why do I deserve that you know you don't and uh it's definitely been a journey what about co-parenting with someone who is a narcissist and I just mean this for

everyone um co-paring with a co-parenting with a narcissist is very difficult it is very tricky um there's a lot of things that need to be done before anything kind of gets set in place um um narcissists don't co-parent they counterparent they don't parallel they counterparent what exactly does that mean so counter parenting is if i say to you um you know i need to take my daughter to the orthodontist because they have to get braces counterparent is going to be i'm not agreeing to that she doesn't need braces i'm not paying for it he's not getting it you need my consent to because she's a minor. So it ends up where they use the child as a pawn to get back at and punish the healthy parent. And if you think about it, what's, you know, finances, right? Legal stuff. So legal

abuse, financial abuse, emotional, psychological will start to, they'll start to lose control over that. And that's already happening, right? But they always go after the one thing you will fight most passionately for, and that's your children. Yes. No matter what, always. So they will counter-parent, use the children as pawns to punish you. So you need to go in knowing that that's going to most likely happen and understand that all you need and research shows this is one stable, healthy parent to raise a healthy child. Just one. You will be the constant.

You'll be the one that's structured. but that also means you're going to get the brunt of it because when they come home from the narcissistic parents' house, they're completely disregulated. So it takes 24 hours to calm them down and, you know, make them feel safe again. So the healthy parent unfortunately gets the brunt of it, but you also have way more control over that child's development than they do. Yeah. Gosh. Oh, goodness. It's just crazy that so many like so many people, people have something in common like this? You know what I mean?

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. That's the one thing about this, that I still, to this day, can't. grasp because let's say for anxiety the way I manifest anxiety is going to be different than how you manifest anxiety the same with depression right but with narcissistic personality disorder it doesn't matter who you are what it where you let it's exactly the same it's the same blueprint the behaviors may be dressed up a little differently but it's the same exact blueprint and are there different levels i'm assuming so there's there's there's So some people say narcissists exist exist on a continuum, but you have to be careful with that because let's say, for example, that, you know, if you're, let's say you're a professional athlete, you excel really, you know, in a certain sport. During that time, your narcissistic traits, let's say, maybe louder in that period of time than when you're not playing that sport. The difference is is that you know that and then you regulate it and you reel it back in.

Whereas with a narcissist, they're a narcissist 100% of the time. They are not just like this with certain people. Even though behind closed doors, they'll be more abusive. Their facade they put on outside the charming and all that, that's still part of being a narcissist. So they're like that all the time. It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't change or shift. I know that you talk a lot about anxiety. I have definitely my, I've gotten much more anxiety than I've ever had in my life.

I think it's just because everything I've gone through and, you know, sometimes I'm even scared to go out and like talk to people. And that's not my personality at all. What are some things that I could do to kind of like regulate whenever I'm feeling that way? Yeah. So when you're coming out of or still in a traumatic situation, because this is traumatic. It changes your brain chemistry. It changes your outlook on things and, you know, it changes your relationships.

It really is a traumatic kind of, let's say, chronic trauma, right? We call it C-P-T-S. So it's this continuous slow drip type of trauma. The first thing you want to do is you need to start to regulate your nervous system. Before you do anything else as far as processing what happened and looking at patterns and all that stuff, your nervous system is so dysregulated from being in fight or flight mode, constantly being on edge and hypervigilant. Your cortisol levels are through the roof, right? You know, which regulates everything in our body, our physical health, our, you know, amounts of well-being, everything.

So it's so important to regulate that first. And you do that through, you know, certain breathing exercises, certain mindfulness exercises, grounding things, you know, grounding techniques just to really get you to be present focused, focus on your breathing, you know, focus on your ability to just stay in the moment rather than constantly worrying, escaping the present moment. It's super important to do that before you even do anything else. Okay. Okay. That's good advice. I don't know. I've never been like that. I'm very much a people person, but I could tell sometimes I would just rather stay at home. That's too overwhelmed. It's, because if you think, you know, you're at max capacity with that to have to go out and talk about things or just engage with people it's it's

it's so overwhelming yeah because you're so filled up with all this other stuff that it's just it's too much i had a lot of that last summer it was like you know different things were going on in my friend groups and everything and you know i was accused of not really being there or like trying to get in the middle of their arguments and fighting and stuff and i was trying to explain, like, I don't have the capacity to take on all the drama right now. I just don't. And I don't want to be a bad friend. I don't want to be anything like that. But sometimes you just feel like you just can't because you're going to explode. That's right. That's right. That's hard for somebody who's a people please. Yes. Right. Then when you can't take in anything

else, then that's the guilt and the shame, which brings even more on you. I'll stay up all night, like thinking about it, thinking somebody's upset with me or mad at me. It's just my, and who I am. Yes. So you need to decompress that first so that you can even take in anything in therapy, right? We have to bring all of that down and regulate everything, heart rate, blood pressure, all of that just so that you can, you know, your memory is shot. All of these things get affected. And so you really need to stabilize that first and regulate it. Okay. I cannot wait to talk to one on one. I've got to because you're just like hitting the nail on the head. the saying on sell many things. You're not alone. You're not alone.

I know it feels like for a lot of people, but you're really not. Do you have any questions for me before I let you go? Yeah, I guess one thing I ask, one thing that I ask my clients a lot, just not so much out of curiosity, but just to see kind of where their mindset is. But where,

not where, but how will you feel? And what if he never changes and maybe at times even gets worse? How will I feel? I always tell people, how will you approach that? Because, and it's a load of question. Nothing's, you know, yeah. But because the reality of the situation is they will not change. Yeah. I think it's important to ask yourself that question. and to really grasp it. What does it mean for me if this never changes? I think I'm in a lot better place with that than I was last summer. Like this summer, it's been over a year since I, you know,

it's almost been an entire year since I filed for divorce, but it's been far over a year since I separated. So I do feel like I'm in a better place. Like, I'm not going to lie. There was times whenever I was like, who's he with? What's he doing? You know, that was like very hard for me to take in. And it's almost like time has healed me a little bit where I don't care about that stuff.

I don't focus on that stuff. I'm like, your problem now. I don't, like, why should I worry about that? You know, I'm in a much better place. I deserve better. I finally, like, understand that about myself. And I still have a lot of healing to do. But I think that I don't expect to change.

Good. You know, there are other things that I definitely think have been working on, you know, that he's been working on, like sobriety. and things like that. Like, I support that. That's great. But I know the personality things aren't always going to change. And I don't expect them to.

I think I have gained so much strength going through all of this. And my son, especially, like, I know a lot of people are like, you stay together for your kids. You stay together for your kids. I, no. It opened my eyes when I had a kid. Because I was like, he does not, he needs a happy mom. Yes. Not only that, but you also.

And listen, I get it. People, they want to stay for the kids. They think that's the right thing to do. What it does do, though, is not only does it deprive them of a happy, healthy parent, but it also models for them that this type of behavior is acceptable. And you don't want them to either think it's okay to be on the receiving end of it. And you certainly don't want them to be, you know, the ones that are doing the abuse. So it's important for a lot of reasons why, you know, you don't stay.

But the reason why I ask that is because, you know, the hardest part is being able to separate from the patterns and look at the patterns almost like you're watching it on TV, you know, you're watching it at a distance. And you can see these patterns. You can predict them ahead of time. You know they're not going to change. When you're in that mindset, it puts you in such a better place to heal because you're not tangled up in it anymore. Okay, yeah. And I, again, I think that's where the show has helped me. I have a different, you know, I get to watch myself and learn from my mistakes and see the red flags and see things that I didn't notice before.

So I'm truly blessed in that way. But I hope that this helped a lot of people listening. Like I said, so many women have reached out to me. I've had women, whenever I do live shows and stuff, come up to me and cry to me and say that me being so open about what I'm going through has helped them, like, leave their own situation or realize that they need to or they need to. that they're trying to. People write me stories all the time in my DMs. And I just, I appreciate it so much because it keeps me going.

It keeps me strong too, you know? I always tell survivor stories are one of the most important elements in healing because it makes you feel connected. It makes you, it validates you. It makes you realize you're not alone. But yes, you talking about this and sharing it,

it's, it is helping so many people, men and women. you know, just by sharing it and not being embarrassed or shameful to talk about it and really putting it out there and helping people and showing them that you can leave. That's why it makes it all worth it because those people that come up to me and say that to me, it's like, yeah, it can be very embarrassing going through all of this on national TV. But knowing that I'm helping other people, like, that like means the absolute world to me. It really does. And it helps keep me strong.

and helps me keep going in my journey and trying to be a better person. And like I said, I feel like I'm getting my sparkle back. I still have some healing to do. It's not going to be easy, you know, to deal with things for the rest of my life. But I'm going to do my best. It's a journey and it's an ongoing process. And, you know, it's, there's, there's no necessary endpoint, but you will hit a point where you're able to, and for people listening who are not even close to this point,

I know this is going to sound bizarre, but I promise you, you will get to a point where you look at their behavior and you laugh at it. Yeah. You actually laugh at it and you see really. I'm starting to get to that a little bit. I really am because I'm seeing everything for what it is. Like the shield has lifted. The blinders are gone.

Yes. And I just, you know. You can't unsee it. Yeah. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Yeah. That's it. And so it's, it's a very empowering feeling for people.

So, you know, for people listening who aren't. there yet I promise you you will get to that point yeah you'll see it too yeah and for those of you who don't have to deal with this you are very lucky you are very lucky okay one last question before I let you go after being through all of this stuff so publicly and everything that you've seen about my life what kind of man do you see me being with like what do you think I should look for i think that you should i think you should look for somebody that i didn't i don't mean it in this way but you really you want to look for someone who feels boring really not because they are boring yeah but because they lack the emotional chaos and the roller coaster that you're

used to right and so it's it's important to to look for somebody who who almost feels boring because I'm so used to being in a toxic relationship so if somebody else without all the drama might not seem as but then that's the person that would like actually love me and be like good to me forever or you you know yeah I mean you want stability you want to you know to know what you're going to get to know what what what behaviors cause what emotions and that it's not this guessing game or it's not your fault and you know it's it's it's It's open and there's dialogue and there's accountability. Gosh, what would that feel like?

I mean, amazing. Yeah, and it'll be scary. It'll definitely be scary. But I tell people kind of look for, because a lot of people will misinterpret stability with boring when they first get out of these types of relationships. Okay. Well, thank you so much for all the advice that you've given me today. I definitely want to talk with you more.

Tell everybody again, I know we mentioned all your books and your Instagram and stuff, but if you can name them again to where people can look for you and find you. Yeah, sure. So I'm on Instagram, Dr. Z underscore psychologist, Dr. Zuckerman on TikTok, and my website's Dr. Jamie Zuckerman.com. And on there, there's access to my books, find your calm, find good habits. And I have virtual courses and workshops on there that you can download as well. Amazing.

No, sorry. Next up, narcissism. Yes. Well, thank you. so much for coming on. You are amazing and I can't wait to talk to you more. Oh, thanks for having me. Thanks everybody for tuning in to When Reality Hits. We will see you next week. Love y'all. blockbuster films like Gladiator.

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