Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson (sometimes) - Drew Carey & Marc Vahanian

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Drew Carey joins Ted Danson and their friend Marc Vahanian for a conversation about shame, forgiveness, and our society’s justice system. Marc is the founder of Pathway to Kinship, an organization that brings hope, healing, and resources to the formerly incarcerated. To help continue the work of Pathway to Kinship, consider making a gift today.    Like watching your podcasts?  Visit http://youtube.com/teamcoco to see full episodes.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Like, there's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice, or if it's a forgiveness, it's a conditional forgiveness. Welcome back to where everybody knows your name. I'm so excited to talk to Drew Carey. What he does with his influence as an actor, comedian, and television host is very inspiring. That's why I wanted to talk to him today. We have a mutual friend named Mark Vahanian, who's here today as well. Mark founded an amazing organization called Pathway to Kinship

that helps formerly incarcerated men and women to reintegrate with society. Without further ado, Drew Carey and our friend Mark Vahannian. All right, so Mark Vahannian sitting over there. What is your connect? We'll get to it because Mark has he founded Pathway to Kinship in 2017, correct? I think I was, you know, just starting out. I think our official is a little later than that, but yes. Right.

And pathway to kinship, you work with formerly incarcerated men and women. Currently and formally incarcerated men and women, yes. But the ones who are coming out, you are helping provide or find access to homes, jobs, and anything else they need. Rapparound services. Even how to do a job interview? 100%. How does a cell phone work and stuff like that, right? They actually know how to use a cell phone, unfortunately.

Oh, because they're in prison. Well, they're not supposed to have them in there, but that is one of their issues. That's supposed to have a lot of things. We'll cut that out so that you can get back in the prison system. Okay, but let's, and the reason why the three of us are sitting here is because how long have you known, Mark? Probably 25 years. When I was in my early, when I was around 42, right, I had a, I was selling a, I was selling you, I just mentioned to you when we met

when I came in, I had a heart attack and a stent put in. My joke used to be, same thing Dick Cheney had, except they left my heart in. That was my joke. I told it to his face once. I was doing the White House correspondence dinner, and he was sitting right to my

left. And I told that joke, and he was pounding the table. He was laughing so hard. Thank God. But yeah, so I had a heart attack, and he was my trainer. At the time? They assigned him to me. The doctor did.

Dr. Dan Eisenberg, God, bless him. Yeah. And then the first time we did anything, he came over, and he goes, how you doing? And I go, yeah, I'm all right. And we went for a walk. We went for like a 30-minute walk. That was my first workout, just walking in the sunshine after having my stent put in. Which is, was it back then?

And in and in and out, you got to put in and you walk out that day? I think I had my heart thing on the Drew Carey show set. They took me to St. Joe's. Wait, tell me that. Oh, I had the whole story about it. You ever had heart trouble? No, but I'm looking at it real carefully. Oh, okay.

So I was really overweight and we were supposed to come back to start taping. I always go to the writers' room, so I would start around July or something. thing or June. We were going to start taping. Man, I got to lose some weight. So I thought it was to start jogging. So I had a little chest heart monitor and whatever. And I was jogging down my street and my heart rate went up to like 160 or something like that, like really crazy. And I was like, oh, and I felt like numb in my shoulder. Like all the things that I read were heart attack symptoms. but I thought if he had a heart attack, you would go and fall down,

like in a cartoon. I thought that's what happened when he had a heart attack. So I was like, oh, that's really worrisome. Let me slow down. And then I, heart rate went down to like 80.

And then I went, all right, I was just started, which is always high anyway. And then I started again, and it went shot right up, and it happened a couple times. And I don't know if I ever told you this,

but I saw a deer cross my path on that run, which is supposed to be an omens. about something. So I was like, well, let me just go home. And I walked home. And my ex, Nicole, was with me at the time. And I was really upset. And I got her on the phone because I, because of this thing happened.

And she goes, what's wrong? I had the weirdest thing. I had all these like heart attack like symptoms really worried me. And she goes, oh, baby, is anything you want to do? And anything can do for you? And I go, yeah, I want to go to Bob's big boy. And I want you to hold me while I play civilization on my computer. So get ready, and we drive to Bob's big boy.

Oh, wait. I thought this was a set-up to a joke. No. We drove to Bob's Big Boy in Burbank, and she held me in her arms, and I had my laptop out, and I played civilization on my computer with the Wi-Fi from Starbucks next door. And I had a chili size, which is a... ham cheeseburger with chili on top of it. Or chili spaghetti.

I take it back. I had chili spaghetti. I had chili spaghetti. A bunch of out here. And a nice tea. After having a heart attack. And then she goes, well, promise you'll call the doctor in the morning. And I said, yeah, I promise I'll call the doctor.

And the next day was the first day back. And we were doing a big special, like, stunt show. So there was a bunch of people there. And when I got there was all, hello, hello, how was your summer? How you been? and I didn't call the doctor, and I did rehearsal, and I felt okay. And then when rehearsal day was over,

it was all like run through light. And then I went to the writer's room, and I'm sitting in the writer's room, and the sun had already got down, and I felt something in my chest again tightened up. I went, oh, I'll be right back. Let me go to my trailers. I let me go to the trailer and call the doctor.

And I went to the trailer, when I went to step up the stairs to my trailer, I really went like, oh, boy, that was, rough and I got on the phone to the producer. I said, hey, you have to call the ambulance. I think I'm having a heart attack. And she goes, oh my God, I'll call right away. And I said, we were talking about Sam Simon as a guy we had in common. He used to be the showruner on Cheers. And he was in his early 20s. He was one of my best friends also created The Simpsons. And he worked on the Drew Carey show too day week. And he was there. I think he might have been directing. And I go, I go, come get Sam and

tell me to come see me because I want to say goodbye before I go to the hospital. I wanted to make sure I said, goodbye to Sam. So Sam came over to my trailer, and I got, hey, man, I don't know what's happening, but I'm in a radio hospital. I just want to make sure I touched him before I went off because I didn't know what's going to happen.

Then I went to the hospital, and I was there overnight, they took test, and Dr. Eisenberg was, I lucked into having him, and he said, oh, we're going to put a stent in you. So the next morning, or the next day he did a stent where he put a, my artery in my leg,

and then I stayed at, So it wasn't an artificial. No. It was part of your body. Yeah, he went through the artery in my leg with a computer thing on and put the stent in my thing. And then I stayed one more night and I left the next day. And I was just like, we as a kitten. I would just like sit around and then Mark showed up and we went on a high, went on a 30-minute walk.

Wow. Yeah, I think. Joey spaghetti after a heart attack. Just to catch up, you, Mark, you were an actor, you were on Broadway as a young man or a boy? A boy. I was 13. No, I was 13 when I was on Broadway. It was called Time of Your Life by an Armenian, William Soroyan.

I got lucky. And when I was 14, I was brought to Hollywood for the first time by Stanley Kramer. By the time I was... Wow. Which movie again? It's called Bless the Beasts and the Children. Yeah, yeah. I remember that movie.

Yeah, and he saw you in New York and Bobby? Yeah, saw me in New York. I audition and when the movie came out and flopped William Morris drop me. Wow. So at 15, I was already, you know, working on a comeback. But then you kept working. You kept working. You were in films, Amityville Horror.

Yeah. You were in Amidville Horror, too? Yes. Coming home with Jane. Coming home? Yeah. Yeah. And then Lou Grant and a lot of other stuff.

So when, and then we, you and I met when we were part of an actor's support group. Dan Fossy's The Mastery. Yeah. And that was all about self-expression and playing full out. And that's where we met. And then we were part of this actor support group. Was it like an actor's workshop thing? It was kind of.

It wasn't like an acting class. But it was like, take a little. look at, you may think you walk in a room presenting yourself a certain way, but maybe you're not. Maybe you're walking in with a, hey, fuck you. I know you're not going to hire me. So there was a sense of getting to know who you are, how you present yourself. Oh, I've done a thing like that. Those are really important.

Yeah. And like if anybody who's an actor out there, those kind of things are more important than how to win a scene and all the other stuff they teach you in a regular acting class, you know, who's your character. It's more important to find out who you are and what you are inside because you're like, you're really the actor in the room.

Hey, wrong. Excuse me. I've been, you know, binging your work the last two or three days. I started writing jokes about what a bad actor I am. I'm a bad actor, I tell you.

I was in Romeo and Juliet at the end of the play. I was still alive. I was in a Christmas play. I was, I wasn't offbook till February. Bad act. My agent's another actor.

It looks just like me. I got nominated for Academy Award. I got nominated for Academy Awards. Steven Seagal won it. Uh-oh. Mark, you're a great audience. Those are pretty good jokes, right? Real good joke.

There's a Rodney Dangerfield in there. But yeah, those things about, like, one of the biggest thing you have to get over as an actor is the fear of judgment, right? Yeah. And the fear of, like, somebody's going to think I'm bad or somebody's going to think badly of me or think I'm being silly.

Or, you know, if I cry or if I, like, You've got to go 100% man. And it's not to say it's life. I mean, I find that to be. Yeah, it helps up life. I will spend, I will waste an hour or two at night worrying about what to ask you so that I appear like a good, you know, post or something and you like me or something. And finally, finally I give up. I finally give up and just go, what am I genuinely curious about?

Yeah, yeah. Go from there. But it's. That judgment thing? Yeah. applies also for these folks in prison. So I was working with a woman just this past Friday who's was convicted 20 years ago. So she served 20 years and she's about to go to the board of parole. And she said to me, I'm concerned they're going to judge me for what I did. And I said, well, they are.

That's what they do. But that's not the whole story. But that fear of judgment also aggravated the shame. And she was getting stuck in that. And as soon as you just acknowledge, well, yeah, you are going to be judged. And now what? That you're able to then move forward. Fear of judgment, shame, triggers, fight or flight, all those things. Like that's an automatic reaction, one thing to the next. That's how a lot of people end up in jail in the first place. They don't want to feel shamed. I want to go back to how you guys met and work our way up to pathway to kinship so that people really know what it is you do what it's about. But how did you first hear from Mark about Pathway to Kitchen?

I got a cold call just like you. I know we're friends, but I need money now. Drew, I haven't talked to you in a while. Still got any money? This would be the Mark Vohani and Roast. Painfully true. I was driving around, volunteering for organizations before we started our own. And at some point, I was like, well, how am I going to pay for all this gas?

And that's when we started to say, okay, well, what else can we do? Started the organization. And yes, I went reaching out to people who trust me, know me, and tried to make a case for what we're doing. This is either going to be an editing nightmare for you or people will hang in. Mark, I want to take you back to acting, wasn't satisfying you enough. You started to be a physical trainer. I'll share it a little differently. So three careers, three trips to Hawaii.

So first, as an actor, I was brought to Hawaii for an episode of Heart to Heart. Yep. Robert Wagner, Stephanie Powers. Classic. Somewhere in my 20s, I discovered that Hollywood and the business was not really interested in what I had to offer. Broke my heart. It was all I'd ever worked on. That's a good way to put it. It is.

It is. It did. And, you know, in the middle of being very depressed, I also had to feed myself. So I had to figure out another way to make a living, which had never even thought about, since I've been at it since 13. And that's when I had done a play called She Also Dances, where I played a gymnast, a dancer. And our mutual friend, Brad Blaisdell,

who's no longer with us, asked me to get him in shape because he'd seen me in this play. And he said, I'll buy your gym membership. And that was the first inkling. And then I, you know, took all the classes, got certified. and same thing, went around asking people I knew who were successful

and might be able to afford a trainer. And before I know it, I was working with you. I trained Bruce Willis for a film. Woody I worked with for a little while. Johnny Cochran was... Whatever happened to that guy. So Johnny Cochran was like my favorite, unbelievable person to work with. I worked with him for about 15 years,

worked with him for the whole OJ trial. He was amazing. I learned a lot about the justice system being by his side. You were training him during the OJ trial? I was training him before the OJ trial three mornings a week. And when the trial was getting going, we were working four mornings a week. So he upped his game. Yeah.

He was amazing. Wow. I never had a bad moment with him and we worked at 6.30 or 6 in the morning. He was a remarkable person. Somewhere in all of that, I, also was just, you know, got an itch to do more. And I was studying trauma resolution through the body, somatic work. And let's see, somatic leadership.

And the Mick Fleetwood and Stevie Nix flew me to Hawaii to do, get them in shape for a tour. And when that was finished, I came back and I started working, pursuing corporate folks. Morgan Stanley flew me to Hawaii to work with 200 advisors. financial advice. I also, during that time, started drinking, which was new. I was contrary to being Mr. Fit, and my wife wasn't having it. I don't know that, but she wasn't thrilled.

So I went and got some help, went to a program, and while I was doing that program, I read Father Greg Boyle's two books, barking at the choir and tattoos on the heart. heart. Father Greg Boyle is the founder of Homeboy Industries. Yeah, moving into a new place. Yeah, Homeboy Industries. And I thought, well, while I'm doing this, you know, getting my ship back together, maybe there's something else I can do to be of service. And I start volunteering for various reentry orgs. Homeboys won several others. Job interviews, you mentioned. I started helping folks who just come home, learn how to do a job interview.

And I just, you know, I was doing more and more of this and got really into it. Then I met a nun. She brought me into prison. So I had a priest that had a nun and I'm not even Catholic. The nun, her name is sister Mary, Sean Hodges, high sister. She introduced me to the work inside the prisons. And it just was mind-blowing. And I was moved.

I was discovering that. My experience, my skills, my life experience brought something to the table of value. And I just kept going and that takes us to hear. Fantastic. And we'll talk more about that in a second or what really some of your experiences. But how come you stuck with this? How come you, I mean, yes, you like him as a friend and a trainer and all of that. Well, I really trusted him and he was always really super-

positive. Like, I wouldn't, I barely touched a vegetable when I met him, honestly. Remember the time he tried to, you tried to, you brought you a drink. Yeah, you brought me a protein drink or something. And I was like, protein drink. And he's like, yeah, they're, they taste fine. Just try one. They're not bad. And I was like, all right. If I have to. It was like, I would go to a, this is not the different, I would go to a steak place and have the steak, the bread, the loaded mashed potatoes, a couple beers, and then a dessert. And whatever vegetable was, I would just leave it there. And then after I got healthy, he introduced me also to the doctor that I still have that helped me turn my weight around. And after that, I would go to a steakhouse. I'd eat the steak,

the vegetables, not order a potato or not touch it, not really. have the bread and I just drink water all day. Like I don't even drink alcohol at all anymore. It's wild. Yeah. And I eat salads for lunch and all the kind of stuff. And even to this day when I'm eating like salad has green beans and stuff in and I'm like, man, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I wouldn't have touch this. There was a joke you worked into your act at one point.

I had told you to listen to your body. Oh, yeah. I'm like, is this, am I allowed to swear on the, yes, listen to your body. Hey, why don't you jack off

and I have a pizza? What a great idea. I like the way you think, Mr. Body. I'm going to get along just fun. But what happened when you heard what he was doing?

Why, Why have you been consistently supportive? Well, you know what? When I was in college, I kicked out of college, Kent State. But I was in the 75 is when I graduated high school, graduated year early. And I had no business even going to college, but I heard that's what you should do. So I just did with no idea what I was doing or why. Or I just, everybody's like, oh, everybody should go to college after high school.

And I had no job skills. It wasn't like I could be a welder or drive. wall or anything that people in my neighborhood did. I don't know anything about mechanics besides doing a, you know, changing the oil and doing a tune-up. So I majored in criminal justice studies. That was my first declared major because I'd read, I used to watch a police story. Remember that show? Another classic.

And Joseph Wamba. And I read all the Joseph Wamba books. Joseph Wamba really owes me. New Centurion. And, yeah. So I was like, oh, I think being a cop. would be good. So I always had an interest in like the criminal justice system in general and like how it got started and why we have this and why do we have a police force and what's the history of it and why are

people in a jail, you know, when there's other things they could do. And when I heard he was starting this, that was a natural interest of mine. It wasn't like, oh, I never thought about prisoners or people in jails. And I thought that he was doing a good thing. And I also, you know, You know, I've been on a, like, this journey all my life, trying to be a decent person. And, like, there's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice. Or if it's a forgiveness, it's a conditional forgiveness. Like, as soon as they say they're sorry, I'll forgive them.

I can't wait until they come crawling to me, and then I'll forgive them. And then they carry that around the whole time in the meantime, like a, you know, like a dead body on their shirt. shoulder, whatever slight they had. And so I've learned to get over all that stuff where I want my forgiveness to be instant and before the fact and automatic. I have a whole, we could talk a whole hour about forgiveness. But, you know, part of his pathway to kinship is forgiveness. And the hardest thing, it's easy to forgive. I tell people, you know, if you had to treat people like children, because we're all children in a way, like nobody knows everything. So there's a lot of people

our age, older, younger, you come across a new thing and then you're like a child. You have a new thing that comes across you. And a lot of times you don't know how to react. So you throw a tantrum, you know, or your fight or flight gets, and you've never been in this situation. So you yell. So you have to do, if a two-year-old yelled a three-year-old, you don't have to like it. You don't have to accept it. You don't want it to stop. But you don't see the three-year-old the next day. If your parent goes, there's that motherfucker that was crying yesterday and ruined my mother. my day. What's up, bitch? Like, you don't do that to a kid. So why don't do it to a person?

And a kid, you know, you're stuck with if it's your kid. But like, you don't have to like hang out with somebody that's done you wrong or is constantly testing you or hasn't learned their lesson yet. Doesn't mean you have to hang out with them and be their friend. Forgive them, let it go, move on, let them go on with their life. You go on with your life. But we don't do that in the criminal justice system. The idea is always like punish. That'll teach you. him. You hear that a lot. That'll teach him. You get three strikes. They use these sports metaphors all the time that don't make

any sense. The three strikes comes from baseball. It has no business being in a criminal justice system. It was an easy slogan to sell. And like there's ways to do things and there's it solves a problem that gets criminals off the streets

and it puts them somewhere where you don't have to think about them. But does it make society better? Is there a better way we can spend our money? is there a greater benefit, like a common, is there a best practice in the world that we can adopt besides we're going to throw them in a jail? And the history of a jail, it just was a temporary holding space for somebody to be before they chop their head off. You know, that's what a jail was. And then they decided, well, we'll put you in jail.

We won't chop your head off, but we'll keep you in jail longer. And nobody ever thought, like, is there a better way that we can do this? And some people, I guess, belong in jail. and you don't want them to be out on the street when they're so violent and messed up until they get help. But what help are we really offering them while they're in jail? And why do you have to treat people like this all the time? Like people change. People that start out one way in their 20s when everybody's like, you know, when your late teens,

when your brain's not even developed yet, you go in jail for 20 years and all of a sudden you're older and wiser and you wouldn't hurt a flee. And you don't want to keep treating people like that. that you have to forgive them and give them a chance to be forgiven. And forgiving yourself is the hardest thing. That's the hardest thing. It's so, it's way easier to forgive other people that have hurt you didn't than forgive yourself. We talked about trauma in the body. You know, you think about stuff you did in your life, things you regret, that you always bring up in your life. You always talk, man, if I just never did that and that comes across your brain every once in a while and I'm like, I hope that never comes out of it. And, you know, you have to forget. You have to

forgive yourself and move on and let your whatever that is in your past heal, whether it's a week ago or when you were 12 or when you were five or, you know what I mean? The forgiveness piece is such a big part of what we get to do. One of the things we get to do is bring in survivors of crime, which is an opportunity for them to get some healing because they get to share about the impact of a crime. but the folks inside get to hear from the perspective of someone who's been harmed, people who've lost sons or husbands or daughters to murder. And these folks come in and they share the story, but they're not coming in with hate. They're coming in with, it's hard to picture,

but they come in with love in their hearts. They share how much it hurts, but they, to a person, say things like, you two are redeemable you two are lovable and it blows their minds yeah they are they've done a horrible thing

but everything should be forgiven did you ever watch that documentary about the two women that were in the prison camps and and they ended up forgiving all the people that did it to them so they could for them they didn't do it for those guys

you don't forgive people for them You give it for your body, your health. Get it out of. You don't want to. Why carry that around? Because it is very destructive to you. To you, yeah. Why do you want to like, you live a better life if you forgive?

You live a lighter life. Not just because you're a good person for forgiving, but literally. You can do it selfishly. Yeah. Yeah. And you can go like, oh, I know how to get out of this funk. I'm just going to forgive the guy and then move on. Because when you carry that hate around and it's super,

you're healthy to get mad when somebody does you wrong. There's nothing wrong with it. You should have a period of like grieving. You should have a period of anger and like self-righteous. It's like what the hell, you know, but that guy cut me off. But don't think about it tomorrow. Like that guy cut or did you wrong. Don't think it, don't carry it around for a year. Like as fast as you can as you're able to. You know, try to forgive and see that they, you know, whatever their messed up thing is and how they harmed you, you have to be able to forgive them eventually.

Don't put up with that behavior. Don't be their friend. If they're still the same, you don't have to do that, but for yourself, I always leap over the, I, because I'm a faux Christ. No, I, Mary calls me the F-A-U-X,

faux-Christ, you know, I'm always trying to leap to the saintly, you know, and forgive and all of that and jump over the fuck that hurt or oh i'm sad or oh you know the emotional impact because then once you at least acknowledge that you can move on to forgiveness but i always try to yeah once you like once you've patched a couple walls that you've punched yeah then you're like well i got to quit that's just costing me money why why am i doing this so there's another piece too that i'm sure people out there listening and going fuck them they're in you know keep them there they're in jail i don't

want them out, you know, are they just going to do something bad again or whatever? Talk about how it is not just kind of like a saintly, the right thing to do spiritually, but it's also the right thing to do in a selfish, practical way of what it costs society to not deal with this the way you are, Mark. Well, it costs somewhere around $100,000 a year to keep one person inside. So literally. In any one, yeah, $1,000 a $100,000 a year. And just in one prison alone in California, sometimes there's 5,000 people, add that up.

And there's 30 prisons in California alone. They're coming home anyway. Most of them, 90% of them at some point are coming home. So do you want them to come home healed, healthy, able to work, able to pay taxes and be off the dole? or do we keep paying for them to be incarcerated? Because... Because...

Because the repetition is what? It's very high. It's getting better, though, right? Well, I'm glad you brought that up. 16 to 25-year-olds, they go in and out and in and out and in and out. The recidivism is about 70% within three years. It's horrible. But, you know, if you work with teenagers, it's hard. However, folks who've served a whole bunch of time, like 15, 20 plus years, they don't come back.

They're done. It's about one and a half percent of them recidivized, and that's through domestic violence or drugs. They're not out there committing, you know, crimes of property. I'm not being an apologist for that 1%, but those are good statistics. Do you bump into resistance? Is that the kind of, what is it? Is the resistance you bump into it or what? Well, I think what you said is Scrum.

You know, they did a terrible thing. They, you know, an eye for an eye or whatever it is, they should stay there forever. But that's just not how it's going to be. So we want to make, make, they're going to be your neighbor anyway. Within a few miles, they're going to live by you. So it's better that they're able to have a job, take care of their family, have families reunited. And that has generational impact. I know families where it's three generations of gang members.

That's not good for any of us. It's just not good for any of us. So if we can interrupt that and rebuild families, what a beautiful thing that is. I mean, it's beautiful. And I know lots of men and women who've come home and are making good lives, lots. You also work with lifeers who are never, ever, ever going to get out.

Well, on paper. And I say that because there is a movement at end the what's called LWOP or life without possibility of parole. Some of the best people I've ever met are currently serving life without possibility of parole. I've met a few also who've been resentenced under some of these changing laws and they're back. One of them works with me now. Brandon, I met him when he was serving life without possibility of parole at Lancaster State Prison. and he was resentenced,

and then he got to go to the board of parole after serving 25 years, and he's home, he's doing well in the community, he's a full-time college student, and he gets to go back inside the same prison, Lancaster State Prison, where he paroled out of. And he's a bright light,

and the men see him because they know him from when he was inside with them, and their minds are blown, because here he is coming back as a free man. But some of them who are in there that are lifers are also working with you, even though they're not up for parole to help younger people who are. And other people, and not all younger. Yes, yes, yes.

One guy's name is Kevin Tran. He's in Corcoran State Prison, serving a very long sentence, crazy long sentence. He rewrote our curriculum, personally. He rewrote it. I had, using my seven keys framework, but he rewrote it and made it so much better. But the detail of work that he put in. And when I go in, he's really facilitating the class. I'm kind of watching in awe.

So there are people serving crazy terms, life without. I know a literary mentor who teaches guys how to get their GEDs. He's serving life without. Fantastic guy. Now, again, I never want to say, I know that what they did is horrible. But that's 25 years ago or 20 years ago. And they've done what they can do to repair what they can repair. There's some things that are unrepairable.

And if you take a life, you can't undo that. But we can start giving back and we can make living amends and we can make some direct amends. What do you say to people? Because a lot of the arguments with people that are like really they want to get tough on crime. Like we're going to show them, teach them a lesson and you're going to be an exact. example. So other people hear about that and they won't commit crime because they know that this is what happens to you when you commit a murder. But that's not why people who commit murders don't think of that. That's like the last thing on their mind. When you're 16 years

old or 20 years old or 22 years old, do you think about any of that? No. No. You're out of your mind. I mean, that's the problem. You need money and somebody says, I know I can get some quick money. I want to impress a girl. Seriously, that's some of it. I want to impress some gap. Yeah, or somebody disrespected me and I got to teach him a lesson. Huge. This whole notion of the disrespect in my neighborhood and oh my gosh, tragic.

So the people will lock them up and the idea of having like, oh, we're going to have therapy for you. And you know, a lot of people in America will say like why should I pay, I don't get free therapy. You know, I have to pay for my food. I have to pay. Why are we giving these criminals that done these horrible things, why are we giving them all this free stuff? Why are we even giving them free room and board? Like the idea of it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, the umbrage. But,

you know, like, that's why they don't like, you know, people don't like food stamps or, you know, social services. I made mine, you can make yours. Right. That kind of attitude. But, you know, isn't it less expensive for society in the long run? Because a lot of this, it's like we're fighting against this punishment, shame, we're going to show you, teach you a lesson attitude, with a better, more productive way. Like there's a way to do things,

like you can just chop everybody's hand off if you want to and do that to somebody, but it doesn't deter crime as well. as, I mean, I don't want to live in a society like that where people make a mistake and they get their arms cut off. So, like, how do you do it? That's like the best way to do it. That's what I'm thinking. Like, what's the most productive, most beneficial to society? They should have a lot more mental health counselors, a lot more people that, you know, teach them how to well, teach them how to do something. So they have a job when they get out. So they have a skill. I don't like the idea.

of using prisoners as slave labor, you know, for dollar an hour or whatever they get. It's not that much. Two bucks a day. No, no, yeah, it's less. But free therapy. Let's start here. I come from a privileged background, even though both parents were immigrants, they were both also psychologists.

So when I was starting to get into trouble of my own kind, I got therapy. I got the benefits that none of the folks that I work with that were either brought up in foster care or in gang infested neighborhood. I didn't have that. Do therapists as parents? I know. That explains a lot. Did they fight over which one was giving better advice? I'm a youngian.

So I think. Did you ever go to your parents and go like, bro, can I just stand in the corner and skip all this talking? Just spare me. Give me a spanking and let me go on my day. If you had something you could say to the state, what is a practical real, not just a wish that would further this, what you're doing along? But I think it's more than just something practical because we need to start with the kids.

You need to start with families. That's what's happening. You know, you get a kid exposed to domestic violence and drugs. They're already at such a disadvantage. Yeah, well, it's all you know. It's all you know. Like, people learn from people in society in their neighborhood, their friends, you know, not even like video games stuff.

yes but in TV shows and movies but mostly from their friends who learn it's like there's an accepted level of behavior if somebody does something this is what you have to do back everybody knows it and that's how people are socialized in america especially like if something does this you have to you know get your gun out punch him that'll teach him and that's the common like i don't care how many you watch all the barney episodes you want that doesn't fight the lessons you get from your friends and your family and people in the neighborhood and people people in school that you go to school with and all that stuff um so like it's hopeless in the first place don't you think somebody was at people a couple times people are prices right now I ask

them what they do during the commercial break I'm a mental health counselor at a prison and I go oh wouldn't have been wouldn't have been would have been great if they had that before they went to prison right and they just laugh and they smile and they go yeah it would have been exactly yeah that's That's it. I'm part of something that you know about Angels at Risk, which is started out more about drugs if somebody kind of fell through the cracks in high school, smoked a joint, had a beer, or somebody like that. They'd have to go with their parents to this program with Angels at Risk where it was basically

just starting a communication between parents and kids because in those teenage years, no one listens in that family. So it was just the kernel of here. This is what they think and this is what you think. And then they would share it in these meetings. And it changed people's life. So to take care of mental health at an early age, now Angel at Risk has a curriculum that costs nothing to go into schools.

And it's about, you can say mental health, but it's about self-esteem. It's about caring for others at a very early age. And it would be so easy to introduce that into schools to start that mental help, you know, component of what needs to be addressed. You also need to feed people. Oh, my gosh. You also need to have lunches at school. Yep.

You need to let teachers be able to be nurturing, you know, all of the above. I'd rather spend $100,000 on a therapist's salary to talk to 20,000. kids and teach them a life lessons, different ways of dealing with... That could be arranged. Different ways of dealing with stress, different techniques. If somebody does something to you, you don't have to punch them. You can do this instead. That's less violent.

That solves a problem. And then you save, you know, $2 million a year having them in prison. You saved $1.9 million in your streets are safer and you don't have to worry about getting jumped in the, that, that goes down. All that stuff goes, help goes away. You're going to have to give up stuff, though. You're going to have to give up righteousness. You're going to have to give up vengeance is mine. You're going to have to give up all those things that make some people. Well, that's the first, like, that's their lizard brain coming out when you, that's, that's the fight or fight coming out and everybody.

Like, I'm going to show you. Yeah. And, you know, you can't do this. And it's, besides writing a letter to the editor and voting, people get elected because they get people outraged and I'm going to, I'm going to throw these guys in jail and three strikes. That's how all that stuff happened. Do we have examples? Isn't there a country that's doing this really well? Norway is really up the forepoint. Again, it's a more humane approach, more holistic approach. The officers don't carry guns and in the prison. In the prison, they're just treated like humans. For anybody out there who's like a throw him away to jail, when you hear the words, humane, and holistic, you probably are like,

already, this is bullshit. So I want you to think of it as cheaper, better, and makes your streets safer. Cheaper, better make your street safer is beautiful. That's the approach. Yeah. And it's working there. Works better.

Yeah. Yeah. Quit throwing your money away. And I will, in fairness to the state, they are California, Newsom, they have invested some money and studying the Norway way and they're making some good efforts.

It's just a very big project here. Correct me if I'm wrong in Norway. The prison guards here get like 30 bucks an hour or something like that, right? I don't know their exact. They get some kind of salary. Yeah. That's a, you know, they live a middle class life.

But you got to go to prison guard school, you know, and it's all about get tough, these guys in line. Norway, they have like, psychology degrees and they're assigned a few inmates to mentor like you're let's like being a big brother's program you know now you have these okay i'm in charge of these five or 10 however many they give them little brothers and i'm going to show them like okay this is how to do things and how about this response as like a mentor and a teacher why they're in prison which and you i mean hearing right then that how to do it no it's it's true and and i and i

We don't have that yet, but we do have at least some wardens and some officers who are trying to bring kindness and humanity and treat folks like their citizens and humans. It's not cascaded throughout the system, but there's certainly, I see people trying to do it a little differently. Which would remove or dampen down the amount of fear, you know, I've heard you, I think, talk about how the trauma you experience of just walking into a jail, which makes it harder to do the work you need to do to get to that place where you are full of empathy for what you've done. And you are not so full of fear and shame and rage, you know. I must be either oblivious or just fortunate at this point. I don't feel traumatized walking in.

I meant the prisoners. They are having a hard time. But again, the people who are one of the most amazing examples are some of these guys with Life Without. There's a guy named Ken Hartman, who was one of the first two L-WOPs to be found suitable in California. He got out about seven years ago. And what he said was he referenced the camps as well. And he said he had read in Man Search for Meaning that, There were people in the death camps that had found a way to just decide they could be a good person,

even if they were going to get sent off to the gas chamber. In the meantime, they could be a good person. Not everybody, but some. And he said, well, if they could do it there in a camp, I can do it here, even if I do have life without. And perhaps at some point, and if they look at us again, I'll have demonstrated that I'm worth taking a look at. So I'd rather be in the front of that line in the back of that line. And he was after 38 years he served. And again, you've got to do it for you.

You can be kind, loving person and be selfish about it because, oh, I want to do this because I'm tired of, you know, punching my fist in the wall. And I'm tired of doing drywall work and I'm tired of, you know, kicking things and hurt my toe. And I'm tired of being angry all the time. and I want to be, I just want to chill. And forgiveness and love is the way to do it. There's no other way around it. Those are the big umbrellas. And you got to apply that to,

like, if we had a more Norway approach to our prison system, yeah, I know it sounds super liberal and too kind. Like you don't want to, I don't want to treat these kindness. Fine. Let somebody else do it, but it's better. It's less expensive in the long run. it's less expensive in the short run. It makes the neighborhoods better in the short run.

It makes crime statistics go down. You won't be as afraid in the long run. Yes, there's always going to be crime. There's always going to be some kind of crime. Yes, there's always going to be some kind of trouble people. But wouldn't you like it minimized and have it the least we can possibly make it in society by using best practices? You know? Sorry to interrupt, but I know you brought a tape.

couldn't sit around because they're not enough cameras and mics and it's confusing when you have a lot of people on a podcast. But I know you brought a tape of some of the people that are working with you or you have known. And maybe we should show that tape. Great. We're calling this the pathway to kinship story hour. And let's not waste any time. Let's hear some stories. For me, last November, was a major turn of point because I was released from prison.

after 25 years of incarceration, former life without the possibility of parole. Now I'm home. I met Mark about three years ago. I participated in critical insight when I was inside. And now I go back inside Lancaster and I facilitate critical insight. And it's just, it's amazing. Now I'm wearing blue by choice. Monday was the anniversary.

It's the third year anniversary of my son Markle's passing. He was 13 and he passed. due to violence. That's what brings me to this work, right? I have found a way to use my compassion and empathy to reach kids like my son and like the person responsible for my son's death and really try to connect with them and build that bridge, sort of say,

not just to honor my son, but that way his death is not in vain. vein. I'm a formerly incarcerated woman. I was released up for spending most of my 20s, early 30 incarcerated in the state of Texas. And now I live in Southern California, where I work in criminal justice, spaces of rehabilitation, reentry, and fundraising supporting non-profits like pathways can secure resources so people coming home from prison can actually be supported. I stumble upon pathways watching this dutiful person, this loyal servant coming in, driving in, driving. from Los Angeles every Friday. And I'm ending my day, but I'm thinking, you know, like me, who does that?

I mean, who sacrifices like that? And I'm just so impressed with Mark. And then I hear what he's teaching in faculty, the principals. And I want to know them. I want to learn them. And so I learned from him, and now I have an opportunity to work closely with him. And it's just been a joy of my life. What we do with critical insight is it's all in the name.

We teach participants the necessity of having insight, not just to go to parole board and to come home, not just to understand why they did what they did to leave into prison, but also for them to be able to see their potential, to see a bright future. Because for a lot of people, I can speak from my own lived experience. I was called everything except for a human from the day I was born until the day I decided to make that change in my life.

And so it's just really about empowering the participants. I got free, you know, I'm staying free, and I'm in a process of thriving right now, here, right now, today. I run empathy building curriculum with it, which is solely based on Marco, right? It's everything and anything that I can do to bring his voice alive and to keep his memory here with me. I do.

I do and I've also am system impacted. I was a juvenile that spent most of my teenage years inside a juvenile halls and camps, which really brings me that sense of concern that our communities are still going through this, right? And it really, it's a passion to my heart and both sides, you know, through my child, but then also to the child within myself as well. The reality of my reentry is that I really came home with no clear plan to understand what was next. I wasn't given any parole plan from Texas, nor I wasn't even shared any options to consider for my education or work. So I came home with a lot of fear, very little room to mess up, and my reentry was very fragile alongside with others.

And truly along this process, I felt like everything was so urgent and every decision. that I'd make felt like it could cost me anything. I think second chances truly don't start at the gate for all of us. They truly start from inside. Preparation matters long before we are released. If I had access to any kind of programming, any kind of rehabilitation program, leadership programming, workforce development programming,

while I was incarcerated, I would have had a head start long before I was released. I advocate for imprison programming, and that path to the kenture, we work with people while they're incarcerated. So we focus on accountability, job readiness, self-reflection, and credible mentorship. So people that, you know, are supporting folks that are incarcerated have lived that experience firsthand.

And I am happy with where I'm standing in life. I've achieved a lot of things in the last four and a half years is because there are people out here. And Mark Hohanian is one of them that really invested in me early on. on in stage. So I didn't really lose a lot of years and worried about, you know, losing more time than what I was supposed to. And rehabilitation and redemption are truly real. And you need a community that supports you with this process. I believe I have that responsibility to not just walk on with my life. Okay, I know better and I can do better. No. I believe that I have a

responsibility to give back and help anyone that I can, that it's willing to receive change. They want tools for change. I'm here to give it to them. This has just been life-changing, a reinvention. Work with people who are really trying to make a new life. To work with people who've returned from prison and have gotten educated, trained, skill, and are bringing their heart and experience, their lived experience. Wow.

That was really powerful. Thank you, Mark, for putting that together. Actually, Nick put that together. Oh, nice job, Nick. That was really powerful. powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Can't think you enough, man. What I did have thinking about that. Who's the elderly lady that spoke? Oh, yeah. Velda Dobson Davis. So Velda is a retired former associate warden. And I met her at Central California Women's Present. She was an associate warden at

San Quentin, which she still goes to and teaches our critical inside class, but she also teaches a a distracted drunk driving prevention course for men who are in there for taking a life from as a drunk driver. She's a remarkable person. The women, you should see the way the women respond to her. She's a powerhouse. Talk just for a second about, I mean, somebody has to let you in the gate. Somebody has to say, yeah, it's okay for you to come into our prison.

I'm sure that's not always easy, but there are a lot of people. who are part of the prison system that I guess ought to have a shot out, you know. Well, thank you. So Brand Chote was the first person. He was the former director of rehabilitation for CDCR, and he was the first person to open the door for me personally. And then Amy Casillas replaced him. She's now the current director of rehabilitation for CDCR and a big supporter. And as long as we're giving a shout out, Jeff McComber, who's the secretary of CDCR, so he's the big honcho. There's people trying to do a good work.

It is hard. There's still obstacles to coming inside. There's lots of obstacles to coming inside. But once we're in, we are able to do some amazing work. Yeah. You got anything? I have one thing. Sure.

You are so fucking cool. I love sitting here listening to you talk. You too. way you you talked about what's going on, you know, was just brilliant and so full of heart. And I listened to something where you were talking about, yep, I'm the guy who says, I love you. I love you to people I just met. I love you.

And fuck you if you don't like it. That's what I'm going to do. And I so love I love you do that. I just love your big old mended heart, man. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it took a, you know, took a lot. was telling somebody when I first started in the comedy I started writing. I learned how to write from a book I got at the library. And I was sitting at the counter at this place called Kenny Kings

in Cleveland having a coffee and, you know, trying to write some jokes. And I don't think I'd get in a good mood. So I write some jokes and it hit me. I never forget it. Like all I have to do is being a good mood for like an hour. And I can make a living. Because at that time, for me to be in a positive good moved for an hour was like a goal. You know, because every other part of my day was like, fuck this guy, fuck that guy, these motherfuckers, like, really. And in a jokey way, a lot of times, but just somebody came up with a game, like, try to go the whole day without putting somebody down.

It's like, don't put, and I was like, oh, boy. You want me to do what now? Like, I've been on a path, you know, say I'm still learning. There's days where, yeah, there was, like, here I am. This is when I was like famous on the Drew Care, rich, famous, everything you can want, putting up newspapers on all of mirrors in my house. So I don't have to look at myself in the mirror because I hated myself so much. Wow. I would just leave a little square so I could shave. Is that true? Yeah. I love that. I've done that several times. So I went through episodes,

were like, oh my God, I hate myself. And I don't even want to look at myself in the mirror. So any reflective surface got covered up. So I could just not. Of course, you know, when you're on TV, a lot of people think about you anyway. Can I tell you a funny story since you're actor? I was in a, I used to go to Bob's Big Boy all the time

because I went to Warner Brothers. Twice a day, sometimes three times a day. So it's like a weekend night. I'm like, I just never wanted to cook. And, you know, delivery hat didn't exist. And stuff for pizzas. So I drove it to Bob's and I walked in.

I got my computer bag and my scruff. It was really sloppy. And some guy at a booth off to the corner, off to the side, sees me and says loud enough to his friends that I don't think he knew I heard it. He said, oh, look, it's the same thing I see on my TV right before I changed the channel. And I couldn't get mad at him because it was pretty funny. I was like, all right, you got me. You find out, like, you could have a number one show

and you find out really quick that everybody's your fan, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm the guy who also, you know, I always try to respond to if somebody's waving or smiling at me or whatever in an airport. But a number of times somebody weighs and I go, hey, you know, and then discovered they're actually waving. Oh, yeah.

I'm such an asshole. Such an asshole. We're probably coming to a close, but you have given me such joy, Mark Vahanian. You'll call me from your three-hour drive home from a prison or something and share with what's going on. You give me an opportunity to not just feel angry or bad about what's going on. You allow me to participate.

in what you're doing, which makes, you know, it may be little and small, but it makes me feel better about myself. I also feel like I, you know, I didn't step up to the plate when these people were starting out and going south or something. You know, I was, whatever, I wasn't doing the right things to nurture that part of people's lives. So now to have the opportunity to go, okay, well, I missed that. fucked up or whatever, I can now participate in people redemption. And God bless you. That is such a gift to me. So I want you to know that. And then you get the last word. Is there anything besides, hey, Drew, thank you so much. Thank you for being there. It's a pleasure. Yeah, I made it really. Let me say, one, this work is impossible without people helping. So we can help more people with more funds.

That's just the way it is. The reality is, in order to do the work we do, we need more money. How do you do that? How do you do that? Well, by the way, he's only talking to you and me. I'm hoping I'm also talking to a few million others. Pathway to kinship.org. Go to pathway to kinship.org and donate.

Meanwhile, I want to thank my team, Pathway to kinship team, especially Chris Waddell and Andrew Ames, bless you. And I don't do this work because I'm some angel. I found this out of my own, you know, falling on my knees and trying to find a new path for myself. And I, too, have been met with violence. I've been robbed. First time I was robbed, I was just a kid. I've been held up at knife point.

I've been beat up. I've been frightened. I got lucky. I got help. I had lots of help early on. And so I didn't do some of the things that some of these folks did. None of the people I meet had the good fortune of two-parent family and, you know, shrinks that could send me to a shrink.

You know, these folks are worth it. And I also want to say we work with survivors. We know that there's not enough attention given to people who are victims of crime and more can be done. We're looking to find other ways to do that. one of the gifts of this work is bringing people together who can have shared experience both people who are quote unquote offenders and survivors and I see people changing redeeming their lives making something of themselves and coming back and contributing to the community and thank you Ted for this opportunity oh yeah thank you so much for hosting us and thank you

Drew so much yeah no problem thank you guys hey Woody thanks for Stop a buck. Thank you, Drew. Thank you, Mark. And thank you to all the amazing folks who spoke to us by video, Brandon, Rabia, Lorena, and Velda Dobson. You can get involved with Pathway to Kinship

by visiting Pathway to Kinship.org. Please do. Check it out. Well, that's it for this week. Special thanks to our friends at Team Koko. As always, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and maybe give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts, if you're in the mood.

All our full-length episodes are on YouTube, including the video of all the pathway folks you heard from earlier. Visit YouTube.com slash team cocoa. See you next time. Where Everybody knows your name. You've been listening to Where Everybody Knows Your Name. and Woody Harrelson sometimes. The show is produced by me,

Nick Leow, our executive producers are Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and myself. Sarah Federovich is our supervising producer, engineering mixing by Joanna Samuel with support from Eduardo Perez. Research by Alyssa Grail, talent booking by Paula Davis and Gina Battista.

Our theme music is by Woody Harrelson, Anthony Yen, Mary Steenbergen, and John Osborne.