Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson (sometimes) - Holland Taylor

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

Emmy-winning actor Holland Taylor has led an impeccable career, from TV to Broadway to feature films like "Legally Blonde" and "The Truman Show." She talks to Ted about why she considers her play about Ann Richards to be her life’s greatest work, her famously incendiary scene on “The Practice," her new show with Matthew McConaughey and Woody, and more.“Brothers” hits Apple TV on September 23rd. Like watching your podcasts?  Visit http://youtube.com/teamcoco to see full episodes.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

They're so different, Matthew and Woody, and yet they're piecing upon, and they are like brothers. Welcome back to where everybody knows your name. I am so excited to welcome Holland Taylor to the podcast today. She is an Emmy-winning actor with so many amazing credits to her name, including the practice, two and a half men, the morning show, legally blonde, the Truman Show, so many things on and off Broadway, and just an amazing. impeccable career. She stars in the upcoming show Brothers on Apple TV alongside our good friends, Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson. The show comes out September 23rd, and I can't wait for it after hearing so much about it from Woody. So here she is, Holland Taylor. Are you a coffee, coffee, big coffee, morning coffee person? No, I just, it gives the illusion that I'm going to be alert.

and... Can we just go back? Two. The beginning of us? We could go very... We're going to go way back on you, but... Did you do the Actress Institute? Yes.

Thank you. Of course. I was racking my brains and I didn't want to make an assumption. I met you there, but I can't remember what the context was. I mean... But you took the weekend. Oh, yeah. I took... Two weekends or weekend.

Oh, yes, yes. And then I studied there with Sally. I'm with Dan Foss. I mean, I always wanted to give Dan a hard time about everything. Sally was very helpful in my life. She came to a quite a tragic end, I felt. I didn't, her son, Fisher. Fisher, Stevens, famous actor-director.

Actor-director. Academy Award winner. Director, actor. Yeah. I can't remember, but I did know her, and I can't remember what happened. Well, she just, you know, she just lost. her awareness of things. She just really, I don't know whether it was,

what kind of dementia it was, but relatively young. And in somebody who seemed so out of character for. I mean, I can sort of see myself daughtering before I could imagine her daughtering. But daughter, she did. If you're under 45, you can tune out if you want, but this is going to be some good stuff.

Because we're paying attention to our brain. big time. Yes. Everything we're doing is, no, I want to be present for, you know, as long as I can. Yes. And that science is here.

Yes. To make that possible. Yes. That's real. People say, why don't you retire? I die? I mean, why would I, first of all, why would I retire on that rarity,

an actress working well into her, you know, dotage? And I work all the time, and that's pretty great. I could work more than I do. You are, yeah, I'm going to fawn over you just a little bit. Oh, don't fawn. It's so out of character for you.

No, it's not. I am a sycophant through and through. So not. I love bringing good news. You are an amazing actress. Oh, thank you. But you are. You are.

I, um, wait, I'm sorry. I, this is my second podcast. Names are the first to go. Names, dates, titles. No, that's gone. Gone. But I'm just jumping around. Yes.

So let's stay back on our origins, because you were on Somerset. I did one year. Was it the first year? I only did one year, and it was... Was I there? I don't think so. So you did it like the first or second year or whatever. I closed.

I shut it down. Did we have some terrible boss? I think I was on the version of being fired every moment. I did a soap opera literally the year before they started. paying money. I mean, I didn't make any money on the show. And when I finally, I quit it, I mean, I didn't want to do it a long time. I didn't want to be doing that kind of thing.

Tough, tough gig. Yeah. A lot of bad acting habits come along with that. But I just didn't see any reason to do it. So the next year they started paying actual money. You shot it out in Brooklyn. I think so. Yeah, you did.

Oh, my God. Because I was... What a nightmare. Oh, yeah, it was tough. I blanking on his name. But I was hired to be the town Coxman, if you were. I was coming on to everybody and this and that, supposedly, in the script. And my first day was also the first time I'd ever taken a Valium because I was so, I was having like a nervous.

Yes, I was having a basic panic attack, nervous breakdown, 25 years old. And I just, the idea of. You took a Valium? Yeah. But who knew? Before going to work? No, the night before. You got a good night's sleep?

To calm the fuck down. I was just... They had to peel me off the ceilings. I was so uptight about going to work for the first time. And I didn't know that I reacted badly to Valium. I was broadcast news sweating to sheets and sheets of sweat. At work? All day long, but yes, on camera.

And I was supposed to be seducing this and charming this stuff. This lady in a restaurant. And the actress had been there for two or three years and was cool and calm. And I was just, sheets. And the producer looked at the feed and went, nah. Nah. We'll make him the town creep. We'll make him the guy who turns all his friends into the mafia.

Yes, right, right. Town creep from Coxman to Creep in one small capsule. Coxman to Creep. The worst, hardest job ever. No humor. You can't introduce humor. Oh, no, no, no. Or wit.

They shoot you if you do that. Yeah. And it was, we used to call it red light acting because you had cameras. And they were being fed as if they were editing into the machine at NBC. So you'd get slapped. But you'd wait for the red light on your camera to come on so you could react on cameras. So it'd be whack. Ow!

You know, just the worst. How dare you? Yeah, horrible. Crazy. So we didn't meet there, but we did meet with Dan Fosse in New York. Yes, yes. And at some event there at the Institute, I think it might, but you were sort of around. Did you do Est with Werner Earhart?

I did. I loved it, by the way. Est was fantastic. Yeah. Est was fantastic. I know. People who haven't done it, it's a horrible cult. They won't let you be.

You know, I mean, it's a, and they say, you know, it's a compilation of many disciplines as if that's a bad thing. Yeah, he was very good at that. I mean, it's like, oh, you mean, something like that has to be invented fully. It cannot come from anything for you to have any admiration for it. And, of course, Werner himself was literally the most charismatic man I have ever met before or since in my life and looking into his eyes was like looking into it. to Sky.

He was thrilling. I agree. I agree entirely. Really thrilling. And so were a lot of his trainers. Dan Fawsey. Wasn't a trainer, but he was a guest seminar leader.

Seminar leader. Yeah. And that's where you would have a group of strangers in a room to see whether or not they wanted to do it. And Dan would be the leader of that room. And he was famous for finding the angriest, most recalcitrant person in the room and flipping him.

And he'd break him. And he'd break him and flip him and flip him and bring him into the fold and everybody else would fall. Well then I'm going to do this too if that guy. I think if you had a parent that I mean I'm sure people can get the same thing

from good parenting as you could get from S. But for me it was the kind of the first time I went oh, life's not being done to me. Yes. I'm in charge of this. I'm inflicting myself on life.

Yeah. Also, like the rules, they talk about rules like they're a bad thing. The truth shall set you free. I mean, rules are the structure. I mean, look at if only our country, we're now following rules. Rules. Rules of engagement, the rules of civility, the rules of warfare, the rules of commerce, the rules of honest, the rules of, you know, mixing and matching, the rules of everything.

Rules are a wonderful thing. Rules is how you spend the day. It's your schedule. Your schedule are the rules of the day. And I, as somebody with terrible ADD, I absolutely thrive in a highly constrained situation because I can pour my energies into the task that's appropriate for that moment. And when I did Anne, interestingly enough, people say, I look back on that as it was a pure gift to me from God or the universe because I have ADD. I'm a very poor worker. I'm scattered. I'm confused. I forget things. I miss the obvious. And that job had so many separate tasks that I had to fully put myself into many different disciplines and efforts. And therefore, I never got bored. I never lost my place. I never lost my thrust or my momentum. I had to research her. I had to travel and meet people who were close to her.

I had to go to the archives. I had to study. I had to watch film. I had to go to a dialect coach. I had to write. And I had to turn my attention to each of those tasks separately and devotedly. And that was why. I'm talking about Anne Richards, a one-woman play that you did,

about and who was governor or almost? She was governor for a while. And then didn't get reelected because I can't remember her. Well, because George Bush decided he wanted. And you were an absolute brilliant choice to do that. Well, I was the choice. I mean, I chose to do the project. I wrote it.

I conceived of them. I didn't know that. Oh, that's what I mean by it was gift. I mean, like it came funneling. down to me that I should do this. Because I wanted, because she died, I was startled by her death. I mean, I had met her several times, but

I didn't, I mean, I, I was completely surprised by this, she was 73, and I felt very bereft. I thought, why do you feel this, so? You didn't really know her. Right. And I realized that she just meant

a great deal to me. And the fact that we would lose such a person as a country, It upset me so much and I fretted and fretted. And then at some point I watched the keynote on television DVR. And I thought, you know, I could play her if I had to. I knew enough about her to know that the last 10 years of her life, she had quit drinking.

You know, she was never a drunk. She just drinking was a problem. She quit drinking. And then had an amazing assent. of 10 years that led her to be governor. And I thought, I could play her in that period. I'm sort of the right age now. And I just thought, well, I should get somebody to produce something and get somebody to write.

And I'm literally driving to work one day. I was on 2 and F. Men at the time. And I thought, oh, no. No, no. No, no. This isn't a movie of the week. This isn't television. This is live.

She's live. to the people. She's talking to the audience. She's real. And I just got it. I just got it. It had to be theater. Had to be theater. And then I was thinking, well, who would I get to write? I think, you write it. You have to research

her anyway. You have a lot of work to do before you can even conceive of working on this. So, you know, I'm a fair writer, but I became a very good writer on that project because it demanded it up me. I wrote better

than I can write. I acted better than I can act. I daydreamed and imagined better than I can imagine. It was a project that absolutely yanked me up a staircase. It was astonishing. It was an absolute gift to me. I met her once or twice and she was... I mean, you can't believe it. It was sparkling. And when she spoke to power or a bunch of men, she was just outstanding. Yes, truly. Yeah. Truly. And yet they would like... They would like her. Men liked her. Yeah, yeah.

Men really liked her. She was a man's woman in that. Where did you do that? I did it on Broadway. I did it at the Lincoln Center at the Kennedy Center, at the Schubert in Chicago, at the Paramount in Austin, at the Majestic in, in San Antonio. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. I called you Ann.

That's how good you were. Oh, I'm sorry. Anyway, I brought that up in terms of the attention. I mean, that was just a magic job for me because of the rules. I had so many different disciplines and things that I had to follow the rules of. And they were rigid.

I mean, once you're in the play, man, arrive at the theater two and a half hours before the show, long prep, you know, working, you know, working with the script. I never, at all that time, I never went up on my lines ever. Pretty amazing. I wish I'd seen it. Yeah. You know, it's on PBS. I saw, I saw a clip of it. Forgive me to say that. Well, it's probably not from that version. I mean, there were a lot of clips floating around from all kinds of sources, but it's on Masterpiece Theater. Okay. No, it's on great performances. You can just get on the PBS page,

look up to shows, select show. around a season whatever, 47, episode 24. I know that that would please Anne Richards. Yeah. If that is available on PBS. I've been binging you in the last few days, catching up. And I saw you do bosom buddies and was howling at how great your physical comedy is. You are so good.

Oh, thank you. What did you see getting out of the chair? That was one of my favorite things. That just came to me in rehearsal. And I said, I think I got the idea, actually. It was a beanbag thing. I asked for a beanbag. Oh, you did.

I said, you know, wouldn't they in their college room have a beanbag? Because I could do a thing where I literally can't get out of the chair. And Chris Thompson, so it was. He said, oh, I love that. I said, get one because you'll see, it'll be great. and actually I couldn't get I mean the way I wanted to finish it I actually ran out of gas and I finally just flop back in the chair and held my sitter up like he just loved it yeah what my tom you know that was that was Tom actually his second job but his first job of stars and he

was counting and within minutes you just knew he was going to be the biggest fucking star in the world yeah I felt the same way looking at him because I hadn't I don't know that I watched bosom buddies back then, but oh my God. Oh. So good. So, and also, Fassel. I mean, he was, he could do anything and talk about fiscal comedy. He, he actually saw himself in a frame.

He knew exactly how to place himself in the frame. I don't know whether he was one of those people who understood cameras and lenses, because I certainly don't. But he, he was so comical. in the picture of the screen. Right. He's just, and he's also a sweetheart of a person. He is indeed.

I've worked in several times that I've talked about going back in time with people and how rich it is. I mean, I forget what year that even was, 80, like 45 years ago or something. I know he was no longer doing it in 82 when I started Shears. He had just finished. I think, were you in Studio 25 at Paramount? Yeah. Yeah, that's where we shot it. Taxi was in there before us.

And then, anyway, he came to the stage and watched Jimmy Burroughs. Yes. I mean, he's just so great. It's funny how after a period of time in this business, we all sort of bleed into each other in a way so that I feel so at ease of a lot of people who've been around a long time, even though I maybe haven't worked with them. But I know we've all experienced the same thing. We've all experienced the same societal ripples and waves and upheavals. And now what I think, what we all, everyone in this room and everyone watching or listening, has been through in the past couple of years from the pandemic to this terrifying situation we're in in America right now,

from which, well, you know, in life, what is recovery? It's all rippling, rippling. Who knows when the country will have any degree of comfort or normalcy again? not in my lifetime certainly not in my lifetime no no it's all over as far as I'm concerned I often wonder because my

where I'm 79 in a month and so I know my nervous system is different there's not a lot of fat around my nerves to cushion them or against buffeting loud noise is slightly irritating

you know all of that stuff I go through I'm one of those people that's a joke when there's a loud noise. Literally, everything in my lap and my hand goes in the air. I'm out of the chair. I mean, it's like, in fact, I'm going to actually discuss them with my doctor doing something about my, I think my cortisol level must be so high that it's like, it's not healthy. Yeah.

It's not healthy to be that strong. Yeah. But I also think that we, I'll speak for myself. At my age, I'm thinking, oh, dear God, this is a catastrophe. It ain't good by any standards. But my younger friends, my kids, react a little differently. Yes, they see the same horrible, have the same reaction to what's going on, that chaos and lying and all of that stuff.

What's just evil is what it is? Yes. But it's not, they don't think of it as end of times necessarily, mainly because this is the water they're swimming in now. we're terrified because we're on our way out. It just feels more vibrantly disastrous, I think. Yeah. It is terribly bad, but that doesn't mean it's unnegotiated.

You know, you can't negotiate. Well, you know, you go through things up. I think of just in the past, I mean, I literally drove my car away from the fire on my street. Wow. The helicopters dropping water 100 feet from my car. Where were you? on my home, Curzon Avenue. Curse on just above Hollywood Boulevard.

And I live in a shinder. And all I could think is, if something happens to that house, that will be very sad. Not because it was my house, but because of what it was. I mean, a load of crap in it. And by miracle, that was the second day and there was nothing like the wind. That was the day after the palisades and fire. and the fire was across the street. It did not jump.

And also, there was a fire department that had not been completely exhausted and wiped out the day. So they had a helicopter with water dropping and everything else like that. But I mean, there's that. Then there's the pandemic. There's a living in terror for, you know. Literally for your life. For your life. And, you know, masks for a couple of years of masks and a psychological effect of.

that. The bodily wreckage of having been in the house for the better part of the year, not out in the world, not doing things, not driving the car, not living life. So that you then we creep out like little mice

you know, for the fires to come and the strikes and the and the, you know, and the guys in masks, you know, it is illegal for armed forces to wear face coverings. It is illegal for people to wear masks and be in some sort of law enforcement.

No, no, that is illegal. And look at what we've been putting up with. Look at these masked marauders, these untrained thugs, swooping through this town. And, you know, you see it happening. I got ice block that app on my phone before they took it down. So I can see... What did you have? Sorry.

There's an act called Ice Block. Ice Block. The man created so that it was up. It functions like ways. You get on it and you can see the city. You can see a map, a very simple rudimentary map. Where they are. And you see red pinpoints where they are.

Yeah. And you enlarge the map and you drive into an area. You see, I'm coming into a place. There's mice over there and there and there. And there was one day. day when I was looking for them because I wanted to watch this spectacle of this appalling stuff going on. And I was, I mean, they're not here right now, but when they were, they were all over town and there were these red pins. I'm going to call you up a picture of it because I took a screenshot

just to keep because I couldn't believe that there were these red pins. And what it would mean somebody would type into the app, ice here at Fourth and Spalding. And sometimes they'd add a note like, you know, 30 guys with trucks and other guys, they wouldn't say anything. They'd just say, ice here. And I mean, what about that period? Now, we're going to have that again. That's going to come back, but that's not here right now.

God knows. But then you go to other towns and you see ice in other towns and you see the film. It's happening everywhere. I mean, if you told me this would happen, I would say, it's never going to happen in America. Are you crazy? Nothing like that could happen. What are you talking about?

Apparently, it happens very goddamn easily. Yeah. That's the thing that's hard to take. So we've been through already a lot. So I still startle very easily. I'll fall out in my chair, a book falling off a table. You know. and we carry on.

And then, you know, the physical things. They lobbed out both my shoulder joints. How are they doing? Great. Stronger than ever. I mean, my doctor said, the whole joint is out. He said the pain is in your joint. When we take out your joint, the pain will travel with it.

I have no pain. You're a regular Jane Fonda. Yeah, well, why? Does she have a lot of things? There's not a thing she likes to say that's of her left that was originally. Well, I'm lucky because a hip will be next. But my sisters have their knees. Have you got your knees?

I did one knee and one hip. And the best thing I ever did. Well, I mean, most people say, why didn't I do this three years ago? But I was just having my physical in New York. I have a doctor in New York as well as out here. I guess you really have to. And I was getting my physical and I was dressing afterwards and we're talking the way one does and saying this doesn't me. I think.

And after a while, she says, Holland. you can't really dress yourself. I said, well, yes, I know, well, it just takes me a minute. But she said, no, you actually can't really dress yourself. I said, well, doctor, I got here, and I can dress myself. She said, what is the situation here and here? I said, well, I do have a good bit of pain in that. She said, why don't you just, it's probably laparoscopic.

So I said, well, send me to your surgeon. So I went to him, and she said, I'll send you to a couple. I went to this guy. He's the head of orthopedic surgery at Columbia. the Presbyterian in New York, Bill Levine, most divine man, you'll ever meet your life. And he said,

he looked at the accident and he said, well, the only thing I can really do for this shoulder is to take it out. And I said, what are you doing Wednesday? And he said, Wednesday? I said, yeah.

He said, okay. Did you do the reverse? It's reverse. Which is an easier, faster recovery, I understand. I think that's what they try really to do now.

Yeah. So the receiving thing is the knob is not on your... Yeah. Your feet is a femur. No. Now it's attached. It's attached in your bone. Yeah.

And the receiving thing is screwed onto your scapula. So I have both of them. That's all cool. It is a miracle because I had really a tremendous amount of discomfort. All right. Let's back up. What were you like? You're the activist now who's jumping in her car and finding ice agents.

That's so much respect. What were you like in the 60s? Well, I marched. I did the anti-Vietnam march on Washington, which was, I think, 69 in like November or something. It was cold. I still have a lot of pictures. I think I had a big heavy camera that I carried. to that.

I'm a my myoflex, and I took a wonderful film pictures, which, of course, I mean, they're in some drawer, but there were so many parents, couples, older people on that march because of their children, as well as the children. It was a huge. Yeah. It was the most moving thing imaginable. And also being in D.C., and it was long. And I remember there was like, you know, it's so plunge in huge spaces.

You sort of don't know where you're ever going to go to the bathroom, but you're marching and taking pictures. And by the end of the day, I was so frozen holding this camera. It was quite, it must have been in November or something. It was bitterly cold. And I remember getting back to the Watergate Hotel, which is where we were staying. One of my group parents had a condo there. We were actually staying in the water.

Gate Hotel. And walking back, there was Howard Johnson's, and I had to go to the bathroom so badly. I went in this Howard Johnson's, and I was wearing actual Navy pants, sailor pants, wool, blue wool with the 13 buttons. Right.

Not speed. I mean, I would give anything to how those... They don't even make those pants anymore. You know, it was the day was when soldiers and sailors, the fabric of their uniforms is the finest wool made. Finest fabrics made, and now I'm sure they're polyester. Anyway, I got into the woman's room at the Howard Johnson's, and I put down this camera, and my hand, this is my hands.

And I said, open those buttons, and my hands went, we can't move. I'm so sorry. I got this woman. I said, I'm so sorry, I'm really frozen. Can you just unbutton these 13 buttons? And would you wait for me to go out? That's exactly right. It's kind of crazy.

So crazy. What a time that was so... Were you also doing theater back then? Yes. I was in New York. I was just doing theater. And I didn't come to L.A. until...

Well, really not really, till Bus and Buddies, which was 79. Nine, maybe? Yeah. Seventy-nine, something like that. So I... Yeah. LA was all new to me.

In fact, I remember Paramount. I mean, what a beautiful lot. To have your first job be at the most beautiful. Now they've painted it that off yellow again. It used to be, everything was pristine white and the palms and the palms against the sunset sky driving home from work. And I lived seven minutes away. And it was just some kind of dream. But I felt that socially the experience of being at work on a lot,

doing a television show in Lyle, since I came from the theater, it seemed insane to me. It's like everything seemed insane. And I remember somebody from my manager at Bob Lamont's office would come to have lunch with me so that I could say, okay, then this happened, and then he sent, and then she came in and then, and then this and this. Is that normal?

And she said, well, yeah. I said, oh. It was like a whole new world. So bizarre. Mary and I made a Netflix show last year called A Man on the Inside. And we shot in Paramount because it was looked. What is this? I don't know about this film.

It's somebody that gets a second chance of life after his wife. dies, he takes a job and he becomes an assistant, a private investigator. And because they need to stick somebody into, it came from a documentary called a mole agent out of Chile, a true story. True, there was a documentary. And anyway, we shot at Paramount, which was Mary's first studio. She did Jack Nichols, she got hired by Jack Nicholson out of a waitress job, basically. She'd been studying and all of that.

Jesus Christ. And shot there. And my first real experience was Cheers at Paramount. So we all had that incredible, indelible. Fantastic studio. Indelible beginning. And the woman who was head of costumes then, gray-haired incredibly...

She wasn't Edith Hetty. No, but it was... She might as well have been. That kind of Dwayne who knew everything, who would just be fitting and she would pull the sleeve, she'd pull the elbow of the sleeve, and she'd look at the guy, go. And these tiny little adjustments that would make her costume just,

she was there for a hundred years. She was like, she had that kind of power. We all have to fight so hard to keep Hollywood alive. It would just be criminal. I can't imagine, and it's already dissipated. I know, I know. All those artists, all those artisans that you're describing. Yes.

You know, having to move or, you know, there's no work or it's just criminal. It's horrific. All the craftsmen. Yeah. All the craft. I mean, we encounter people, if you pay attention for a minute, everyone around you on a movie set, I don't know if it's so true now, but in my past experience, you say, oh, look how he does that. Oh, he's been doing that for 36 years. Yeah.

And he knows how to do it. And the old makeup artist. I had a makeup artist, I can't believe I can't remember his name, who had been some great beauty, some great Hollywood stars makeup artist. Ron Berkeley. Wow. Yeah. Well done.

Yeah. He was not young. I mean, he wasn't an old, old guy. But he was, you know, 60. And he did my makeup, or the Truman Show. He made me up. And he was kind of a. What I admired and what I paid attention to is he was very firm.

She pressed the makeup in my skin, which is how I make my own, do my own makeup. He pressed and he blended and he, and I took an interest and he would tell me, do this, do this, and don't do that. And my makeup was so, I think, was just so impeccable that it lasted all day. And he, you know, he had seen a willing student. So he taught me things, which I do today. Where'd you get your training? Stella, Adler?

Nothing before that? Well, not really. I mean, I went to Bennington where there was a guy. There were a couple of good people in the theater department there. But, you know, young people talking about acting, it's just so much bullshit. You know, I mean, I read good things. Strasbourg, I actually, my own instinct was, this is. a load of bullshit. I had trouble.

Yeah, I mean, because, first of all, on the face of it, as Stella later said and confirmed my earlier instinct, if you are having a life and death conversation between you, Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I of England, you're having a life and death conversation, and you you, to help you, are imagining your grandmother at Hoboken, you actually should be in a mental institution sooner rather than later. I mean, it's just on the face of it's so obvious that you, you know, you want to use your imagination to lift yourself into the circumstances of the play. Seller would always say, you use your imaginish. You said, after all, it's your imagination. So it is you, your creativity, everything that's in you, is called to the creative task at hand.

But you must be within not only the situation of the play, but the color of the play, the style, the point of view of the play. If you are in an Oscar Wild, it is going to be different from Maxim Gorky, you know. She was just set so common sense in a very elegant container. Kindred spirits with Sanford Meister. Yes, they were. They were. I mean, I'm sure they each had quibbles with the other. For sure.

But, no, I mean, I think Sandy learned a lot from Stella and probably vice versa. But Stella, the thing that Stella had was she had just a towering intellect. And I forget who it was. It said she was the most raving, tearing sexual beauty. Just amazing. And that she should have the mind that she had was an unbelievable combination. But she was very serious. I mean, she was a very serious person.

Worked hard intellectually all her life. I'm just jumping around because you said, you know, raving, intelligent and beauty, great beauty, very sexy. I don't know if you said that, but that leads me into the scene, the David Kelly scene. Oh, yeah. in the practice. Oh my God. That was still great. Please, if you're out there listening, just, I don't know what, YouTube, find the scene with Holland Taylor.

What's that? It's not shocking now. It's not shocking. In the day, it was absolutely blindingly new. Set it up, but it's like someone is suing or. Well, I'm playing a judge. He's a very intelligent, very capable judge. And she has, she.

And she's active sexually. You know, you sort of get that from something or rather. One of her A's, one of her, what do they call that in court? Court clerk. Yeah, one of her clerks is going to sue her because of she. Because you had relations with him. Because I slept with him one after him. He didn't get the job and he complained.

And it came to light. And he blamed it all on me. And I embarrassed him from... You embarrass them and you seduce him. There are three or four men... Yeah, there are three or four different scenes. In the room with you and this clerk. And I said...

He says to me about, you know, me being the aggressor. And I said, don't be silly. I mean, it was you. I could give you an erection across a crowded room. Go on. Stand up, you said. Go on, stand over there and watch. Yeah, right.

Stand up, Brian. Stand up, and he wouldn't. It was the most riveting. You're so good. You're such a good actor. You really are. That was a great scene. Everybody was good.

David Kelly, right? David Kelly. Miracle part. It was just a miracle part. Please check it out. It's a remarkable scene. I remember I had the great good fortune of somewhat being somewhat friendly with. Oh, I would have been totally friendly with,

but he was very sweet to me, Mike Nichols. Oh, yeah. And I think I called his office and I said, tell Mike to please watch this episode. He wrote me a note. He's always printed these notes. He didn't use script. And he said, wrote me and he said, Bill Clinton has a lot to answer for him. I mean, it was the most, it was kind of a stunning scene in its time. It was. Whatever year that was, 1990 or something. No, I guess it was a little later than that. 98. That was brilliant.

Yeah. That was great. That was great. Well, it was great to have a role like that to play. Yeah. I mean, a very successful judge, not a movie star, not a model, not a beauty person. In her 50s, I was, I don't know how old I was then, 60. I was like 60 years old. And, you know, it was very, it was a really lucky thing to get a role like that. The confidence.

It set me up for all kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. One other scene I saw, sorry that I'm catching you and, you know, clips. Forgive me. But the morning show? The morning show. Oh, yeah.

Whoa, when you get wrecked over the coals, they're called to pass. That was unbelievable. That was so wonderful because you're wrong. Yeah. But you're defensively like all of the people who... Blindsided by life. Yeah. Blindsided by circumstances in life.

That was really tricky to play because like the actress and I were kind of... What is her name? She was fantastic. Nicole Bhaherry. She was so brilliant. But we were both... It was so delicate. Because it was, there was so meta.

Here am I, this, you know, ancient white actress, well-meaning person, liberal, conscious, nonetheless blindsided by her own clumsiness and her own relaxed behavior. Yeah. And the actress, a woman of color, playing a woman of color, who was on the edge of being insulted,

on the edge of challenging her boss, on the edge of endangering her job. I mean, it was so meta. Nicole and I just clung to each other for Dear Life to do that scene. And it was very hard scene to play because of the meta nature of it, you really felt those feelings.

It really was brilliant. I really felt those feelings of shame and embarrassment and what have I said? How could I have said that? But that thing where you feel like after you've made some really shocking, insensitive remark where in the next room

you're thinking to yourself how could I say that? Who am I that I could say that? Yeah. I mean, it was really incredible. I mean, that is one of the many good things that came out of that period, Black Lives Matter.

The canceling thing I'm not a huge favor of, but that coming, calling people out. But systemic racism was something that we hadn't really labeled as a society. Right. And there was a huge amount of no, no, I am not a race. Oh, no. No, I am a racist. That is, no, the bigot is that person over there. You know, not me. I have to, I have huge swaths of lack of consciousness. That is, it plays into that.

There's a great thing to look up on the internet. An interview with Tony Morrison, was one of the great creative minds of our era and a British journalist and I'm trying to think what prompt would call it up anyway this British journalist asked Tony Morrison do you think you might ever write a book that was about white family or white people and Tony's looking at her with the face of such beauty and brilliance and she said

slowly, I wonder if you realize what a terribly racist question that is. And the English girl blinks in that way. And she said, ah. And then Tony said, I don't think you could ask a white person, when are you ever going to write about the black experience? Could you? And then was it, oh, I see. So I asked from the point of view of being,

and then Tony says at the center. Yes, you asked the question as if you are the center. And you're coming across. And she said, whereas, and then this is Tony, most beautiful face. And she said, whereas, in fact, I am at the center meaning she's at a true center

of everything and that woman was at the center of the white world whereas Tony is in the center of humanity a very different center it is a glorious interview worth looking up

I will I will I think one of the things I'll say I learned was the intention doesn't matter. Yeah, no. No, it doesn't.

You can have all the good intentions. Yeah. Be well-meaning. Yeah. But if you are passively blind... No. To what happens. If you change the channel going, oh, that's just horrible and change the channel.

Right, right. To some racist act or something. No. You are just as much a part of the fabric of racism in this country. And that was hard because people don't want to be the bad guy. No. You know, as opposed to going, wow, you're right. Yeah.

You've got to get schooled. Yeah. And the conversation is not between white people and black people. It's between white people and white people to take a look. More often than not. That's the problem. Not their job to forgive us or school us. Right.

I remember I know a couple who are good friends with the Obama's, and the Obama's often stay in their house. And I was at a gathering at the house when the Obamas were there. And I was in one side room with Michelle Obama, whom I worship profoundly. And there were several other people in the room, white women as it happens. And this one white woman was having some problem with her family's prejudice. And she asked Michelle how she, that woman should handle that situation. and I knew that Michelle had just been at some exercise,

some wellness camp to get fit after an extremely arduous period of time. She was exhausted. And I saw her cast a baleful glance at this woman. And somehow she had the grace to say, this is something that you really have to figure off for yourself. we all have to figure out those things for ourselves. We have to find out what we need to know by ourselves. It was really remarkable.

Remarkable. I thought, imagine you have the opportunity to speak with Michelle Obama, and you ask for her guidance and how to handle a racing. You know, it's just like, oh, my God, you know. There isn't a trap that I haven't fallen into. There is a nuttrap. Pitfall. Pitfall.

Yes. There is a pitfall we haven't dived into. Right. Head first. Head first. I'm right there with you. We should just leave the arms. Every bad acting moment.

Oh, my God. Every social gracelessness. You know. You're good friends. You know, I should, I don't know. Sorry, I'm debating. But here's the biggest cringer of that time. one of the biggest cringers for me,

was in the midst of realizing, oh, my God, yes, systemic racism, yes, oh, my God, yes, yes. I called two or three of my friends who happened to be black and apologized. Luckily, the first one laughed in my face and didn't hang up on me, but just laughed. And that was his answer to my, you know, I'm so sorry.

You know, oh, God, cringe. Right, right. Because we're just trying to have anything that can take the weight off us. Yes, please. Something to take the sting out of your... Help me feel better about being white. Take the sting out of your own embarrassment by asking a black person to make nice with you. I mean, it's insane.

Loser. It's insane, right? My God. Now, just to change the subject entirely, Woody Harrelson, is it possible to describe to anybody who doesn't know him. No, and he's, he's, I love him with every ounce of my being. I am so not like him. I envy a huge part of him.

Nobody's like him. Yeah. And he's a wonderful, wonderful actor. He's also the best read person I know. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. He reads like two books a week. I hate him.

But he's also a crazy person. He will throw himself. He is crazy. Yes. He's got scabs on, he's always got scabs on his elbows and knees from fall. off a cliff every time I see him. Motorcycle, scuba diving, diving off a... He's crazy.

He is crazy. Yeah. I'm a wuss, though. But he's not a daredevil so much. It's just he throws him every week he'd come to brothers with a new wound on his face that had to cost Apple a thousand dollars to repair every frame of the film for every second because he was always banging himself. up into something. Yeah.

Out of his verve. Okay, so you play Woody Harrelson, Matthew McConaughey's mother. Maybe mother. So they bring out the real kind of rumor of their life. Yeah. Because it was... But that's what's tricky is sort of meta, because it's real, but it's not real. I mean, I'd like to describe the show as a tall tale.

Because... Are they, aren't they brothers? Did you... In essence, your character, did your character sleep with have an affair with whose mother you're playing? I play Matthew's mother. But I, the question is not what baby did I have. It's who fathered. Right.

So Matthew is definitely my son, but who's his father? Yes. Could be Woody's father. Because it could be because apparently there was a brief period where they were were going to get a divorce and they were separated. Right. And during that time, she met Woody's father. Now, we don't know how much of any of all of this is true.

Right. Because they... Nor do they. Nor do they. And they ain't telling them. I mean, it's like it's up in the air and I don't think they want to know. But it's like the confluence of these personalities together. And Mamack is Matthew's mother.

but I only take her looks as my starting point. I could have met her. I said, Matthew, I don't want to meet her. I'm not playing her. I'm playing the character in our show that takes as its kickoff point, this, you know, leather-faced jewelry-wearing, toss of blonde-haired, you know, run-around Tootsie,

who was very, very busy having a good time in her life and drinks and flirts around, and she's a million years old, and who knows what she's doing with. That's the character I'm playing. It has nothing to do with his actual mother. But I'm sure there's some similarities there. Comes out when?

September or something? I think mid-September. On Apple. September 23rd. Right. And, you know, we, I really don't know what it's going to be like because we were headed in one direction

and then they threw out some episodes and we did other episodes. And hired new people, new writing. Yeah, cut in pace. So it's like, I don't know. I know that there's a lot of stuff that Woody and I did that was a storyline they dropped. And I'm heartbroken because he is heaven to act with. I mean, he is just, well, so is Matthew.

They're very different. But Woody just, I don't know something about Woody's. And a lot of that stuff is not in there anymore. A lot of the physical comedy. But it shows up in other places. But they're so different, Matthew and Woody. And yet they're piecing a pond, and they are like brothers. And one of the scenes that I don't think ended up in it was a tennis match where I'm sitting in a shade of an umbrella, drinking something, watching them wailing each other.

And Woody and Matthew play some serious tennis. And it was a really hot day. and they were wailing on each other. And I would cheer them on and scream, and then they had to shoot this again. No, we have to get the reverse of that. Those guys, when we finally finished, and it was a clay court,

and they both just fell on this court like they were going to die and just clay sticking to them everywhere. It was really fun watching them. Is Matthew as competitive as Woody? Because Woody is the most competitive person on the overmast. That's why Woody gets physically damaged because he will go through a wall.

He must go until he drops. And they both went until they dropped. And then they wanted to get one of the shots. I remember Matthew just said, forget about it. It's not going to happen. Because they were both just spent. And I was sitting in the shade drinking. So that's how it should always be.

Which is hard. It's hard. It's hard. It was sexy. I got tired. Anyway, so we had quite a lot of fun doing that. So did you just live in Texas for a while? Did you go?

Well, I ended up, you know, they, again, So often I said I would do this job. I said the idea is I have a place in New York. I will go to New York and L.A. frequently. I'll go back and forth. Back and forth, hell. I was in, you know, like 30 days in a row where I shot and I couldn't get out. And so, yes.

Where did they house you? Were you in Austin? I was in the St. Cecilia in Austin. Yeah, it's a wonderful hotel. Yeah, a hotel I adore. So it was heaven. But, I mean, come on. Just like, I don't live here.

I live in Los Angeles or in New York. I can't just stay here on and on and on and on. Did you get to know Laura Louis, Woody's wife? Only a little bit. She's the reason why Woody can be Woody. Absolutely, because she does everything. Yes. Woody does nothing.

Nothing. He reads. He reads. He reads. I've never seen anyone read it like that. And he doesn't have a phone. No. So while I'm scrolling and clicking through.

But Laura has his phone. I know, but she doesn't do Instagram for him. I mean, he's not in social media. And so he's not wasting his life the way you and I probably are. I can't wait to see it. My God. Well, he really gives it to you when he's acting. He's really there.

But people just don't realize what a great actor he is because he is. He just makes it look like he's falling off a log, which he usually is in the scene. Falling off a lot. But he has that off-asified naval captain in that movie where he was captain of that boat and he was drunk. Oh, my God. So brilliant. But also, he played LBJ and, you know, he's really serious. No, he's a great, he's a really great actor.

Well, it's lovely to see you. And I love because my desires to do what you're doing. I want to keep acting. I want to see what it's like to try to be funny at every age I'm given. Right. And it is a little different. Yes. It is.

I'm not in favor of night shoots. Otherwise, I'm doing pretty well. I do very, very badly at nights fish. Thank you so much. Thank you. Holland Taylor, what a privilege to spend time with you. Catcher in Brothers alongside our friends Matthew and Woody on Apple TV, September 23rd. That's it for this week.

Special thanks to Team Coco. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, send it to a loved one. Subscribe on your favorite podcast app and maybe give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Why not? All our full-length episodes are on YouTube. Visit YouTube.com slash Team Coco. See you next time, where everybody knows your name. You've been listening to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes.

is produced by me, Nick Leow. Our executive producers are Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and myself. Sarah Fedorovich is our supervising producer, engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel with support from Eduardo Perez. Research by Alyssa Grail. Talent booking by Paula Davis and Gina Batista. Our theme music is by Woody Harrelson, Antony Yen, Mary Steenbergin, and John Osborne.