Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - A Marriage Organized Around Trauma

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

He was deployed to Fallujah, Iraq in 2004. In the 20 years since, he has struggled with PTSD and addiction. She has long taken on the role of his caregiver, ready to jump in when she senses the old traumas are rising. This has often meant sacrificing her own needs as an individual, partner, and lover. With Esther’s guidance they start the practice of re-orientating themselves away from a hyper-vigilant state, toward a more sensual partnership in which she too is taken care of. For additional resources on recovery after war, please see: The Hidden Trauma of Moral Injury- by Jack Saul (https://www.psychotherapynetworker.org/article/hidden-trauma-moral-injury) The Veterans Crisis Line - dial 988 and then press 1. Provides access to free, confidential support with an actual person qualified to support Veterans 24/7, 365 days a year. Serves Veterans, service members, National Guard and Reserve members, and those who support them. Department of Veterans Affairs - VA PTSD Program Locator- (https://www.va.gov/directory/guide/PTSD.asp) VA Caregiver Support Program -(https://www.caregiver.va.gov/) The Department of Veteran Affairs Caregiver Support Program offers clinical services to caregivers of eligible and covered Veterans enrolled in the VA health care system. The program’s mission is to promote the health and well-being of family caregivers who care for our Nation’s Veterans, through education, resources, support, and services. The Headstrong Project - (https://theheadstrongproject.org/) A non-profit mental health organization providing confidential, barrier-free, and stigma-free PTSD treatment to our veterans, service members, and family connected to their care. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Your own weight loss journey is personal. Everyone's diet is different. Everyone's bodies are different. And according to Noom, there is no one size fits all approach. Noom wants to help you stay focused on what's important to you with their psychology and biology based approach. This program helps you understand the science behind your eating choices and helps you build new habits for a healthier lifestyle. Stay focused

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don't overthink how you hydrate. Life's full of choices. Smart Water Alkaline is a simple one. I was deployed to Fallujah, Iraq in 2004. As soon as I got home, I would be afraid to go to sleep. And I was diagnosed with PTSD and alcohol dependence. To me, what the drinking felt like was a slow suicide. He wasn't really alive. We often hear about veterans and their struggles with PTSD. We don't often enough hear what that traumatic experience looks like in the everyday life of a couple.

How it penetrates the relationship, how it sets up a couple to be in a constant vigilant state, not just the veteran, but also their partners. I dropped everything to just support him. My anxiety gets in the way. I can't think straight. I can't calm my hypervigilance. And how that traumatic experience saps the erotic energy of the couple.

I'm getting all this training about how to be a caregiver, and essentially I'm like a glorified service pet. When I wake up first thing in the morning, I go straight into caregiving mode. It's not exactly the sexiest thing. The goal of the session was not to revisit his experience in Fallujah, Iraq, 2004.

The goal of the session was actually to find a way to transition out of Fallujah being the title of his life. There was a very specific request. How do we recover the erotic between us? How does he no longer live primarily as the traumatized patient and her as the ever hypervigilant caregiving nurse? So if I asked, what should we talk about today? What's your goal? What's your focus?

What's your wish? Yeah, I definitely want to touch on intimacy. You know, even now, 20 years since I got home, and I'm still dealing with intimacy issues. It's annoying. I feel like right now I'm in this in-between stage where I'm trying to rid myself of old habits that are connected to my PTS and I'm trying to move forward. I want to get a job and I've been feeling lost because I don't have a job to go to.

I don't have a place where I can use my skills and experience to shine. So let me just make sure I follow you because you're saying something very important. First you say, I've been holding back from intimacy and from getting close to people. And my first question to you is, do you see this as it was always this way or do you see this as a consequence of fighting in the war?

It's a consequence. Okay. And then you say, work would give me a sense of accomplishment and confidence and purpose that would connect to my sense of self-worth, that would connect to my sense of desirability and desiring. Exactly. So when you say the word intimacy, what do you imagine and and draw it as big as you want yeah i feel like we're we're you know intimate in in many ways but when it comes to My body can't relax. Okay.

And, you know, when I first came home, my ex at the time, you know, withheld sex from me because she read it in some magazine that she should do that. And then when we finally did, I had a full-on panic attack. My body got stiff and I was sweating and, you know, I was, you know, naked and, but I felt so vulnerable. It was a vulnerability because I didn't, you know, have my rifle. I didn't have my protective gear next to me. I didn't have the things that made me feel safe. And I still connected to you know the vulnerability and also just the way that you see yourself as having your identity be with your work and you don't feel confident in that right now

and so I think a part of the effect on our relationship is that you're waiting until you feel confident, but it's the sense of identity. Well, it's a sense of identity, but it's also, I want to be in a place that I can shine, that I can, I think a lot of it, I want to show you how I shine. And in what ways do you want to shine that are different from the ways that you've been shining?

Because I see somebody who has experienced pretty much the worst things in life that a person can experience and can still crack a joke who has faced addiction and and you still want to help people and you still like to me you're shining I agree with you. But the way I want to show you is when I'm doing something that I love. Like that will bring me the happiness that I've been, that's been missing. And that you see as an obstacle. Yeah. I'm just going to tell you something.

We're not going to wait till you have a job. I don't want to. I don't want to. I hope you're going to leave with something. No, yeah. Right? That gives you the permission to want and be wanted. Yeah.

I get the connection you're making, but I also think that you're entitled to pleasure and connection. I know. Before you get a job. Totally agree with you. Okay. When we're together and you're, you know, when we're together and you're you know when we're intimate in that time I'm just going to bring a specific instance when we were intimate and I could tell that you had stopped breathing

and I was telling you come on breathe you've got to breathe and I knew that that was trauma yeah yeah it's like the sex between us is great. Whenever you have it, it's great. But it's when it comes to intimacy, my anxiety kicks up and it's like, I feel everything just stuck in my chest. Yeah. That's the fight or flight. Mm-hmm. I know. As they were talking about the stiffness,

sometimes even the dissociative quality that he was experiencing, I realized that words in that moment were not going to capture what he was struggling with or what needed to be opened up. And so we began to do some breathing exercises together so that he could experience what pulled him up as well as what stabilized him down. So it was a metaphor for the passageways that he was describing were blocked and to allow for new air and then after that, new experiences and new thoughts and feelings to come in. Can you just lift your arms a second?

And just open your chest. When you breathe in, expand here on the sides. Expand your ribs so you're breathing in the width. Don't try to think through the maze. When you block, it all gets a jumble it's okay catch yourself back ground yourself back with the breath and also it involves pressing on your feet as your feet go to the ground your arms go to the sky and then you breathe here in the back of the lungs and only when you start to feel like it opens up again that's when you continue the conversation it's it'll be faster and she won't be as vigilant yeah because she's all at you, making sure you're fine and you'll be able to do

what you need to do so she doesn't have to instantly step in as caregiver. Yeah, I want her to be less of a caregiver and more of a lover. So it's an interesting shift he makes away from the trauma and towards erotic recovery. Both of them are basically agreeing that the configuration of their relationship is that she's continuously focused on him and his every move, and it creates a relationship of caregiver and patient, which for both of them is experienced as mightily unerotic, because if you're constantly worried and watchful, you cannot let go, you can't surrender, you can't release, which are hallmarks of playfulness, sensuality, eroticism.

And I have a sense that it's not the first time that they are saying that this is what they want and that they are together in wanting more of that lightness. But at times when he engages with her, he goes into a full-blown panic attack. There is something in the vulnerability of surrender and sexuality that you're not watchful against danger. You're not in the protective stance. And so that is the split that he's feeling inside his body. You've gone through a lot of very difficult experiences together. And there's been a lot of surviving these things together.

And now you say, I want to experience and feel alive. I want to bring in the erotic. And that is beyond sex. That's energetic. And that was one of the things that I felt like we were doing right is that we use touch a lot and we're very intimate. And I don't mean that in a sexual way, but just we know each other's bodies so well. Is it affectionate touch? It's all kinds. Is it sensual touch? Yeah. Is it pleasurable touch? Yeah.

Is it relaxing touch? Is it energetic touch? Yeah. Is it relaxing touch? Mm-hmm. Is it energetic touch? Yes. Is it kinky touch? Kinky as in playful touch. Not kinky enough. Yeah. Not kinky enough.

Okay. Mandate number two. Yeah. All right. We got a nice repertoire of varieties of touches. Great. Great. Great. But what I'm hearing you say is we are locked in a certain role.

A little bit. I'm the patient. She's the caregiver. And we have not turned that into sexual play yet. This kind of role play. So it becomes constricting. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah.

Okay. What are you thinking? I was just feeling the, you know, our last experience together. I felt the the anxiety course through my veins. Even though I'm in a safe space, in the safety of my wife, it's an automatic response, I think, that my body hasn't let go of. Yep. Sex is about surrender. It's about letting go the pleasure comes in the letting go

not just in orgasm letting go in in breath letting go in in letting yourself be held by the other person in letting your head on the right And having the weight of your hand on, and that letting go is terrifying. Not mentally, intellectually you get it. Yeah. But physically it feels like, you know, that's the moment when bad things happen type thing. So you brace.

And do you have a name for that anxiety right up here? If you gave it a name, what would you call it? Shithead. Shithead. And what would you tell shithead? Go away. Yeah, but that shithead doesn't move. So it doesn't.

Just go with the flow. Just go with the flow. Just go with the flow. Okay. The thing is, it served you very well when you needed to stay alive. That's right. Yeah. So it's not entirely bad. No, no, you don't want to get rid of it.

You want to integrate. But you want to tell it, right now there's no danger and so we're gonna have some fun yeah you want to speak to it in a way that reassures it in a way tells it it and giving it direction will certainly help. When you say giving it direction, try it out loud. Yeah, I think just constant reassurance of, you know, I'm okay. I'm safe. Certainly I needed you in other times of my life, and right now is not one of them.

It's okay. I don't need you anymore. You can relax. You can relax. You can relax. That could be a solution. No, no. Nothing is going to be a solution. A tool in the toolbox. A tool in the be a solution exactly we're going to stay very very humble but what made you say so what did you feel well coming on to this you know my anxiety

went up a bit and then you know i feel it in my chest but you know as i spoke to it i felt I felt like a release. I felt calmness spread through my chest. Okay. So it's very important that you speak to it. It is not you. It enters you. It can sit inside of you. It can relax inside not you. It enters you. It can sit inside of you. It can relax inside of you. It is a part of you, but it isn't you.

And it's almost when you talk to shithead, you kind of are caressing it. Right now, we're okay. And you don't need to be on alert in the conversation with it a distance is created where the relaxed breath can take place and you can say before we do anything maybe we should check in with Chithat how is Chithat doing today I mean do you still like the name or are we changing the name

yeah we can change it to what Chithat is a bit harsh for somebody something that's kept you alive exactly I'll tell you the one that popped up in my head something that's kept you alive. Yes, exactly. I'll tell you the one that popped up in my head.

Battleboy. That's a good one. Yeah? Yeah, that's good. Sounds good to me. You know? He was also a firefighter, so there are all these different influences.

It's battle, but it's also service. Tell me more. I mean, actually, I have nothing about your background. So tell me more. I was in the Marines for eight years, firefighter for seven. I was in Iraq for a year. So from 21 to 28, they're my trauma years. Do you come from a family of military or service or both? I've had family members in the service since the Revolutionary War. And I come from a family of cops, firefighters, nurses, doctors. Third generation firefighter. Yeah, third generation firefighter. And how, what's the family culture towards trauma?

You know, the first person who went to battle. Yeah. The advice that I got when I came home was, you know, it's terrible advice, but, you know, I was told if I raped or pillaged, if I, you know, whatever happened, not to talk about it. Leave it there. Leave it there. Leave it there. You know, my guess is that's the same advice that my grandfather gave my dad. Have you had a conversation with your father afterwards? Since it's been 20 years?

Yeah, we had a heart-to-heart. But you telling them was actually me drawing a hard line because for years, I don't think they really understood how much of my energy was going into caregiving. And I felt unseen. And I said that, you know, you need to go and make this right. Because what you were doing was you were acting like everything was okay. Like I came back from this war and everything's fine and I'm okay and everything's okay, don't worry about me.

And he wanted to protect, and he still is this way, he wants to protect everybody from the brutality and ugliness that he experienced. But that's not conducive to the healing process. And so I was just, I was bearing the branch so they know nothing about the addictions no they do they do they did but they didn't make the connection I just don't think they see they don't see the hard all the hard work that she does but also it's just because you know when we go and I perpetuated

it because we would go and visit and I would, he would act like everything's okay when it wasn't. And I would just support it, support him in this mask that he was wearing with his family. And then it got to the point where I just felt like I can't carry this burden alone. I need, like we're not going to be able to do the kind of healing that is possible if we're not everything on the table with them. Yeah. And I'm carrying too much of a burden by myself here. And I need for them to understand how much of a burden I'm carrying. Yeah. I dropped everything. I dropped my career. I dropped everything because I couldn't let him

fall between the cracks. I just couldn't see it happen. And I felt like, not that I was going to let anything bad happen, but that we're in this together. Like, I need for you to be, I'm not going to be okay unless you're okay. So I need for you to be okay so I can be okay because I want to be okay. And I really fully threw myself into this recovery process. So I have a question. And it comes from two places. One is because you were talking about how you at times feel that you are invisible in his family, because his family doesn't

think that caregiving is important, since everybody should just take care of themselves and keep quiet and go on with the program. So caregivers, by definition, have to be invisible. Because if you are seen as a caregiver, then it means that there's somebody in need of care. Right. I heard it in the session when she was speaking, but I hear it ever more clearly now that not only did she give up her entire life, work, activities

to take care of him but on top of it she carries the weight of his secret and that that contributes to making her feel lonely, invisible, burdened and that is a lot to carry. Not uncommon at all, but still a lot to carry. Mama, look at me! Vroom, vroom! I'm going really fast.

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But the other thing is that this invisibility may be sometimes made stronger because the way the relationship has been set for now is if he is okay, you are okay. So it's everything in one direction. I mean I joke about it. I'll say I'm the service pet. Yeah. So if you want to bring more of that erotic energy into your relationship, you have to be able to wake up in the morning and ask her, how are you doing? Or happy to see you. Or come here, sweetie, and let's hug. or something that takes you out of the role where battle boy shithead gets the first attention yeah it's not even you

yeah it's the frightened part inside of you you've gotten so used to her checking in on you first. No, not in on you, checking in on Battle Boy first, that the relationship in a way remains driven, even when Battle Boy is fine for that matter. And a little piece of this lover that she's talking about is you're waking up. I'm saying waking up could be any time, you know. And you're the one just checking in with her for a change.

Reverse it. You will actually feel more confident. Masculine, confident, worthy, all the things that you're trying to get work to do, which will happen maybe, but don't need to only come from work. Yeah. They come from changing your stance vis-a-vis her.

Hmm. I talked and talked because I was waiting to see if any of this would land on him. And so I waited for the uh-huh because the uh-huh was him joining me in grasping that there needs to be a role reversal here he's putting his attention on her he's knowing that he has so much to give her is going to bolster his sense of masculinity, his confidence, his wellness. At this point, he has it all in his mind that work is going to give this to him. And work may certainly give some of this to him. I hope so. But also becoming oriented toward her, toward the pleasure of being with her. that will begin to turn things around. The idea often is that working on trauma will then lead to a place where one can

capture that erotic energy. And what I'm suggesting to him is that by entering into a stance that invites this kind of joy and pleasure, that in itself is part of the healing of trauma. Do you flirt with her? Yeah. All right. Do you flirt with her? Yeah. All right. Do you charm her? Yeah. So it's just more of that.

Not just, but it's more of that. Yeah. And honestly, when I see you and you're feeling confident, that's a turn on. Yeah, that's a work in progress. I know. It's not the only turn on. I know, but that's a big one. Yeah.

For both of us. I feel like he's been feeling defeated because he's been looking for this. He pursued education. You can talk to him. I think that you were just expecting that you would finish school and that you would start a job and that that momentum would just continue. But it's been slow going. And not to mention we had a pandemic in between there. It's been a slow process. And so I feel like it's weighing on you. Yeah.

If he starts to work does that free you up to reconnect with other parts of you that are not about taking care of him yeah and are you waiting for him to do so so you can or are you to a degree yes I'm imagining because you know he's got his own healing to do that it will be a slow start, but that it will pick up. And that I really need for you to be okay so that I don't have to worry about you. So that I can just throw myself into what I'm doing. Yeah. Do you ever feel, I am okay? I don't need her to be so watchful over me?

Or do you need it and rely on it? No, there's many times when I feel like her... Hypervigilance. Her hypervigilance, yeah, I was going to say instincts, they kick in when they're not really needed. Like, it's okay, it's okay. But I appreciate that she sees something that I don't, and she's ready to be there for me.

And when her instincts kick in, and it's not a moment when they are needed, do you tell her, I'm okay? Yeah. Mostly. Okay. Good. I feel like I do sometimes. But I feel like there's a part of me that's

just not sure. Yeah. I sense that. This has been a difficult journey and like all I want is for you to like be okay

and I see like you know when you came out from that interview yesterday and your hands were cold but you were sweating it's like that's not somebody who's feeling okay.

And so I feel like... But those are nerves. I know, but... It's an interview for a job and it's normal. This is an important transition in a story of convalescence, so to speak. I can stand on my leg now. I think I can walk. I don't need the cane.

I don't need you to even look. But then suddenly I may hit something. And then I suddenly wonder, well, maybe I wasn't as independent and as able to walk alone again as I thought I did. And so this is constant recruiting her and then wanting to say to her, I'm actually okay. It was a job interview. Of course, I'm nervous. This is normal. This is not part of trauma. This is part of life. And as he's articulating that, seeing that he could own his own story, his own perception of reality,

I wanted to go back to something that we had touched upon earlier, which was a conversation that he initiated with his parents after decades of silence. Miller Lite. The light beer brewed for people who love the taste of beer and the perfect pairing for your game time. When Miller Lite set out to brew a light beer, they had to choose great taste or 90 calories per can. They chose both because they knew

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together would that ever be an option? I want to. I think about things that I want to say all the time. Such as? Just to describe my experience, the things over the years that we've protected them from. Okay. So if you go to speak because i want to connect the conversation with your parents with the lightening of the load and the creating of the erotic space

so that there can be more energy for fun play and pleasure. Right? And that involves, a piece of it is telling your parents that what worked for them or what they think worked for them, you decided to change. That keeping it quiet basically almost killed you. If you didn't die in Iraqq you would have died under the bottle yeah and that talking has been essential to to staying alive and to coming back to life and that being connected with somebody who is aware of what goes on i'm sure your mother is going to tell you if not your mother one of your sisters-in-laws or aunts will talk to you about hearing the guy scream in the middle of the night.

That was the most typical way they knew. They didn't talk during the day, but they screamed at night. Yeah. They didn't talk during the day, but they screamed at night. And that, you know, you want them to know also what she has done and what her role has been and what is available in the system and how the thinking has changed. Now, that doesn't mean you come back to talk about the pillages and all of that necessarily, or you choose when and to whom. But that it's not just you keep it to yourself, which was probably meant to say at war you do what you do at war.

You know, you're not the same person on the battleground than you are in the civil life. And it's meant to protect you. It wasn't meant mainly. We don't want to know about it. It was, you know, we won't judge you for it. But that doesn't matter because you've judged yourself for it plenty. Yeah. So it's a very complex conversation that will lighten.

Once it lightens, it makes space for this other energy that you want to have. But I want you to think about something very important. To do something really fun soon thereafter, what would it be? I know you're thinking spa. That's our go-to. Yeah, the spa. Spa.

Do you dance? I'm the dancer in the relationship. And you? No. I try to pull him into my rhythms. Do you like to watch her dance? Yeah. Yeah, I love it.

Great. So you have a lot of things in your repertoire and you have an image of yourself that doesn't necessarily match your behaviors the story is we live organized around trauma and addiction and caregiving, and vigilance. We would like to experience more lightness, fun, playfulness, pleasure, erotic energy. But whenever I check on, do you do this? Do you do this? You tell me, yes. There's a gap between how you describe yourself and what you actually do.

I feel like I've gotten there, but he's still stuck. Say more. You know, I have a meditation practice that grounds me, that calms my nervous system, that allows me to be sensual. And I feel like I'm here waiting for your nervous system to get on the same page as mine so that we can have fun, so we can play, that we can, you know, be free. So what helps? She tells you what helps her.

What helps you? Yeah, definitely meditation and finding my purpose. That will definitely calm me down. Finding out where I fit. It's one thing I'm chasing right now and I'm close to getting it. Having a work will give me the feelings of safety and security that, you know, I need to move on. You know, we need to move on.

Currently, the VA supports you? Yeah. The VA and your pension, firefighter pension. Yeah. On paper, it's, you know, good money. But it's like, you know, we're living's you know good money but it's like you know we're living you know in new york and it's you know and we live in a very expensive neighborhood but we have to because otherwise we're living in a neighborhood where you hear gunshots and then he gets triggered

that's where we were before yeah you know it's like that's that's one of my my stressors is money and my job like i can put that nervous energy into work yeah so i'm going to challenge you may i you may not because i'm going to challenge what you really are pursuing. I want to introduce to you that shifting the focus is slightly different. You say, if I get the job, it will mean this for me, it will help me with that, and then I'll be able to also take care of her. Beautiful. But I'm suggesting a shift in the structure of your relationship. I knew you were going to say that.

Make these changes now. Is that what you're saying? To let this energy come in. One conversation is the one with your parents and the other one is a shift in attention all the attention between the two of you is organized around you yeah the emotional attention if you are okay she's okay you have a lot of power even when you fire a lot of responsibility yeah even when you feel powerless as in as I don't have the job I don't get to your position is a position of power she's completely organized around you i know and i am suggesting you do a tiny bit of a rotation

so that you begin to think about her and not about her after you because that keeps you in the center and small things like you're asking her how she's doing or you're putting the music on for her to dance so you can watch or you're cooking her dinner or you're taking care of her in many different ways that you probably already do i'm not suggesting you're not. But more of will bring a different erotic energy because it will say to her, whenever you turn to her and you're checking in with her, it says, I'm okay. It's implied.

I don't need caretaking. If I don't need you, you can want me. Because caretaking is very loving, but it's not erotic. Because to be erotic is to be playful and in pleasure. And that means that you're not being vigilant and watchful. If I'm worried about you and I'm taking care of you, I can't relax. If I can't relax, I can't turn on myself. If I can't turn on myself, I can't experience the pleasure.

That's a bit of an erotic logic for you. I like it. You like it? I do. I do too. Especially like you turn the music on. I'll dance. I do too. Especially like you turn the music on. I'll dance. Give them five.

Give them five things that you know would work for you. What would they be? Cook for me. Turn on the music. Who cooks usually? Me. Always? Pretty much.

Mostly. Okay. Cook for her. Take the initiative. Every time you take the initiative, it relaxes her. Who plans fun? Usually me. I like to surprise him.

Could you take her out once a week? Yeah, surprise me. Like I'm always planning surprises, I feel like, for you. Yeah, I definitely need to do more of that. Could you? Yeah. It may be just let's go for a walk around the block at midnight. It doesn't matter, you know, but you take initiatives.

It will shift the structure if it shifts the structure in the balance of caretaking there's room for the erotic energy to enter yes please so you can become more of your wife and less of your nurse yeah what else can you do

touch me in sensual ways What else can you do? Touch me in sensual ways. I mean, you touch me and you'll give me a little tap on the tissue, but I want more. Okay. Okay. Do you want her to be more specific? No.

I can take her from there. Okay. I like it. That had some oomph to it. Something more to it, yeah. What else? I'll be looking forward to that. I love when you write me notes and little love notes. I love when we first met and you showed me that poem, I thought, oh, I can't wait for him to write a poem for me. Yeah, I used to write, but I feel like my creativity has been blocked.

By? Trauma. That's a part of me that I really want to reconnect with. And why are we doing this list? To remind ourselves how we're going to shift. No, no, I didn't want

you to say it. I want him to say it. Sorry. She said, ask you. I want him. Yeah. Sorry. Just kidding. I'm like, I'm an overachiever. She said, ask me, you. Yeah. What I'm hearing in this session is that she talks, I talk. And on occasion, he says, yep.

And I try to draw him out. I was looking at him. I was speaking to him, even sometimes when she would answer. And I wish I had paid more attention to drawing him out more and being more quiet and having her as well be more quiet. Not because what she says isn't good or relevant, but because it's part of the burden. It's what happens when one person is so intimately familiar with the pain of the other. They can't even bear to listen to the other be in pain. And so

they answer your questions. It's like sometimes I've been in a session, not here, where I ask one person, how are you doing? And the other person says, he, she, they are having a bad day. These are all things that we can do, that I can do, that will help us reconnect and to love each other and be sensual and be playful and be loving with each other. I feel like we are connected. No, we are, but there needs to be more. Of the erotic.

Yeah. Less caregiving. Yeah. For me. Yeah. More caregiving for me. If you took his hand now from there and placed it where you want it, where would you put it?

Maybe just like in the small of my back, on the skin. I invite you to do more of that too because I'm thinking of something you said before that between 21 and 28 you basically got frozen so there's a whole time of your life when you would have learned relationships in your case women seduction playfulness sex post-sex the whole thing that just yeah I was absent it's a long time to be frozen.

Yes. And you're saying, you know, because he has his hand behind you and it's sweet. But there's a place that would be much more... Wherever. Yeah, I like that too. She can, you know, take the hand and actively claim it. Don't wait. You have the right emotional attunement at this point to do more of this. You're timid.

Yeah. And this is an invitation to be more bold, daring, and for you especially to take more initiatives. Yeah. So this is a kind of a session that deals with transition. It's like when is a person ready to no longer need to use the cane? But they've gotten so used to walking with the cane that they don't really trust that they can stand.

And I see you coming here today as asking, how can you remove? Are you ready to remove the cane? And if so, how do you remove the cane? And how do you walk looser? And trust that you are solid? I like that analogy. Yeah.

That's part of the transition. Yeah. Because you've been so used to being in that survival mode, you know. I'm so ready to not be in this. And it is a retraining. You can say it, but you will see how it's become second skin, second nature. So it takes a while to shed it. I mean, I've been a caregiver my whole life.

Yeah, I'm ready for you to retire a little bit. Yeah. The boat fed up with the roles that they've been in for so many years. But it's difficult for him to convince her that he's sturdy and steady because he's not so sure himself. And so they enlist each other constantly to their familiar positions. She wants to get out of the nurse station,

and at the same time, she's constantly watching to see where does he need her. So we've made a dent into their respective frustrations, into the rigidity of their roles, and into the aspirations they both share. But there is a ways to go. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.