Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

A divorced woman calls Esther to untangle a new love that brings both exhilaration and heartache. She is in a relationship with a married man whose marriage is ethically non-monogamous and finds herself caught between desire, jealousy and the longing to feel chosen. As the conversation unfolds, buried childhood wounds, attachment patterns, and an inherited inner critic rise to the surface. They explore how old stories shape present love and what it might mean to rewrite the story she tells herself about love. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Esther is returning to SXSW on March 14th for a special live episode of Where Should We Begin. Visit http://voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more and preregister. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Stair. I'm 41 years old, and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go. In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years, he and I met on a sort of casual dating app and went into it very casually. I learned that he is married and that he and his wife, were are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed. They co-parent an eight-year-old boy, just like I do with my ex-husband, with whom I do not share. Not bad. And she is very open and encouraging of all of this. And never in one million years would I have seen myself making my way into this kind of a

dynamic. But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each other, and he and I go on dates every week to two weeks, and they're absolutely incredible from our chemistry as friends and humans, not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life, like full stop. And he is emotionally secure, and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years. I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love being single. Like when I first got divorced, I'll never forget that feeling of, I can do what I want.

I can be who I want to be. And yet I crave that idea of stability in marriage again. And it's this constant push and pull. And I don't even know if I would want to be married to him. And yet it does not prevent some real pain, some real pain that I feel around feeling like just jealous, you know, of he and his wife or partner who is lovely. I would just so, so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this with you.

So thank you so much for listening. Bare walls, clear surfaces, the minimalist aesthetic is having a moment. And for some, it's a form of resistance. I think a lot of people have a sense that we live in this very consumerist society and feel kind of a desire and need to, like, push back against that. How to Live with Less. That's this week Unexplated to me.

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I think what's very strange to me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself getting sort of entangled in something like this. I've always, when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non-monogamous people, you know, like I always don't swipe on those people because it seems complicated. And something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met. And they're not sexual, right? So he's sexually monogamous with me. And that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work, right? Meaning how, tell me how you put the puzzle together?

So I feel like there's something special that we have together. and I realized that that could very much be the case with or without him having sex with other people, but it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know? And sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife. but they are not sexual. So he has family monogamy with her and sexual monogamy with you. Yes. Yes.

And it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like, I think jealous, there's just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them. But then there's also this. But your jealousy is about. the monogamy of his family, that they come first, that you cannot enter into that space, that tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and what is the jealousy, because it can be about something very precise, right? So I very much relate to his family coming first.

So I also have an eight-year-old and divorced. And it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children. children, and he totally did not understand, like, my kid comes above all else. So that I very much relate to. I get jealous thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife. Okay. So that's don't case. Yeah. And also their general family life, because I don't have it. And it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know. Um, So, yeah. So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have.

Right. No, nothing to apologize for. That part is very raw for me. And this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is, really a beautiful thing in many ways. What is your arrangement with the father of your child? We are good friends, actually. We were friends for many years, and then we got married,

had a child, and very quickly had our first fight that became the reason we got divorced. Which was? You made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about. It was over sleep training with our son, and it was something very small, but I realized I had never sort of stood ground and had been contorting myself, honestly, to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship.

There had never been conflict. And I sort of just stood my ground, and there was a complete unraveling. and he wanted a divorce. And it was so crazy. But we both instantly flipped into, we're putting our son first. And thankfully, my ex-husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young

and did a really good job of putting him first. It's very fluid. Like, our son has never known anything different. and I'm very proud of that. But it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad. And sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full-time monogamous again? That would be hard, right? I mean, some people might not like that.

Would it be fair to say when I am. with the father of my child and my son, and we are in family mode, there is no jealousy. When I'm alone, then I'm starting to think about the family that my partner has, and then I start to think that is what I miss, because in fact you do have a family life.

I don't feel that because there is some, suppressed like emotional pain around my divorce that I just don't surface and yeah I feel like it's other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody so I'm sorry I didn't realize the tears just boom let them flow let them flow let them stream down I'm not intimate with anybody. Yeah. Yeah, I have a very small, like, extended family where my dad, I'm estranged from my dad, which was a complicated situation. It was emotionally abusive to our family.

My sister and I growing up and have a good relationship with my mom, but it has its limits. both daughters are estranged from him for her long eight years right before my son was born right after i got married that was a pretty crazy year but he he basically blew up our lives he and my mom had been married for 40 years and he came home one day and said i want a divorce and he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing we found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life, basically. And in hindsight, I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy. And I spent my whole life trying to get his approval. You know, it was very much the perfect

type A child. And my sister was the older rebellious one. who he treated worse, you know, but he played us off each other. It was just a really tough childhood. I mean, not as tough as a lot of people's, but unpacking it as an adult, it was very eye-opening to me. I learned like I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple years ago and I was like, no. I thought I was over all that.

It's here. If you're, what you call him, partner, boyfriend, lover? Lover. We call each other lovers. Okay. If you lover heard you say, I am not intimate with anyone, how would he respond?

He would probably put his hand on his heart and it would make him sad. Because you're right, I am intimate with him. He's the only person that I really am intimate with. Beyond sexuality. Yeah. He's the first man that I've ever had difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it, where it hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown

or challenge something that was going on. or made things difficult. For example. Well, this situation has been very hard for me. Like, grappling with these feelings of jealousy with his wife. And I feel like I will have these sort of outburst, you know, and I don't necessarily get angry, but I do unravel. And I'm like, I can't handle this.

And sometimes I do contort it into something. Like, you don't even want me anyway. and, you know, just blow up. And I assume that it's gone and he's gone. Because that's how it's gone in my relationships. And I'm very conscious of that with the men in my life. And he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever. He's just there, you know, and he's like, that must be so hard.

And so it makes it like, in many ways so wonderful, right? I feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that allows me to experience jealousy, even envy, because one is for what we had and have lost, and the other one is for what we've never had, or not never, but what we don't have. But also experience the insecurity that it's not what you have. It's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have. And so because I don't have one thing, I experience it as well, then I better have nothing.

Because if I can turn it into, I'll be the one to set this up to end. then at least I feel a little bit more in control. I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is, but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship. And he doesn't let you play with that. No. Okay. And you have fixated on, they share a bed, they share a bed, they share a bed, they share a bed.

And that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy, they have something I don't have. You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. Talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them? You're telling me who he is for you. I don't know much about her. I don't know if your children have ever met. I don't know if this is a marriage also, not just of a marriage,

are coming together, more accurately, of two people or of two units? What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement at this point? And is it by default or is it actually by design? So there was no crossing for quite a while. You know, we met quite casually through this app and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed.

And he presented himself as? as married and described a situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. They lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home. And both of them have a separate erotic life? She didn't for some time. It sounded like, but now she does. And I had not met her for a long time. And eventually she said she wanted to meet me.

And so we had coffee together. All three or all two? Just me and her. And I was like, if this is not progress, against my anxious attachment style. I don't know what it is. I had this whole idea of her in my mind. I've done this whole, the ways that she's different than me.

She's like the perfect homemaker and I'm not and, you know, all this stuff. And instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool. and I could see that everything was very honestly. She was like, this is so great. Like, he's in such a great mood all the time. He is crazy about you. We're so happy to have you in our lives.

I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago, which was hard. But also, this other weird part of me is like, what if, like, I was just a part of this fabric? Like, maybe this did. I mean, do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people that, I shouldn't say crazy people, like, securely attached people that can flex in relationships? And she was so happy to have me there, you know?

So I don't, you know, he doesn't talk about their relationship. I think he's very, you know, protective of that and I appreciate that. And I don't know what the future holds in store for them. But it's like the jealousy, the raw jealousy at insecurity it brings out is so present. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin comes from Monarch. The way things are going, there are probably plenty of things to keep you up at night. But don't let your finances be one of them.

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and start selling today at Shopify.com slash ester. Go to Shopify.com slash ester. That's Shopify.com slash ester. Estre is coming back to South by Southwest this year for a special live episode of where should we begin. This year, Astaire will be joined by Academy Award winning filmmaker Spike Jones to explore what happens when the being that we feel knows us the best isn't a human being. The session will be open to all South by Southwest badge holders. Visit Voxmedia.com slash SXSW to get a discount on an

innovation badge and pre-register for our live taping. You can also learn about all the other sessions on the Vox Media podcast stage, which will feature Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, Bray Brown and Adam Grant, Marquez Brown Lee, Vivian II, and Waymore. Visit Voxmedia.com slash SXSW to learn more, and I'll see you there. May I meet the part of you that speaks that insecurity? How does it relate to you? How does it tell its story?

How does it warn you? How does it turn opportunity into threat? Tell me what it says and what it is trying supposedly to preempt for you. Imagine it's sitting right next to you. So it's not inside of you. It's actually on the chair next to you. Jealousy. I don't know.

Do you have a name for it sometimes? I don't have a name for it. The jealousy is so hard to pinpoint. Okay. So you enter into me. And I feel under. threat. I am in like fight or flight.

All right, hold on one moment because you're still talking to me. Turn around and pick something any object that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves and then just bring it

toward you. Like physically bring it? Yeah? Yeah, go get it. All right, can you show me? Okay, I chose my Lego Lucky Cat. Mm-hmm. All right.

And the reason you represent my jealousy is because... Anything, any connection? No, it just felt like it just was drawn to it for some reason. Okay, all right. We're going to make it lucky. Okay. Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought, like, if I need a mental talism,

then. All right. You don't have to look at me. But I want you to talk to, actually, it's less you talking to the jealousy. First, it's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it feels you, what it does, what it tries to preempt for you, what threats it predicts, what, oh, you know that part so well. I'm thinking about it right now. And if I'm talking to my jealousy right now, it's... Oh, your jealousy is talking to you.

The jealousy talks to me. Yeah? What does it say? Very mean. It's very mean. It tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one. and that I should get out while I'm ahead. But it also tells me that that's, like, very powerful.

That's what I deserve. And that is heartbreaking to me, you know. Deserve as in you're not good enough to be. It starts to attack and erode your sense of self-worth. Yes. And that is what I have been primed for. You know, like that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in any moment I started to feel good about myself and take me down. Which honestly comes up for me, Esther.

Like I think this negative self-talk, this. like when I'm being really mean to myself, I can almost hear him. And then I think, I don't want to let him win, you know, like this is not serving me in any way. Who the hell do you think you are? That kind of berating? For some reason, standing out to me right now, this thing he said to me one time, when I was a teenager, he told me I was the last. person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room. And I sometimes feel like I just walk around

feeling like that. And I am such a otherwise intelligent person that I can conceptually understand so much. You know, I mean, I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pema Chodron talks I've listened to. But don't ask me to. practice self-compassion. Okay. It's like I, it's powerful. It's like feels it's in my body, you know? And so then you go, like, am I fighting something that I am never going to be

or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work? So, you know, I had a wicked thought. May I just share it with you? Because everything is kind of mooched together. Are you still holding it in your hand? Jealousy? Good. Keep holding it.

You see, in a model of plural love, primary or secondary, doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning. Primary worth more, secondary worth less. It's not a rating system. It's an organizational, structural idea. With your dad, interestingly, you were number one. In fact, your sister was number one. On the attack line, your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good.

You wear his number one. of you and he was firing away, you know, estrangement is a drastic, radical decision, eight years. So we can't go into the details of that, but it doesn't happen out of nothing. So you have been number one. Your idea of this fairy tale that the number one is an elevated state is actually not what has been your life experience. There is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness. And then you demarcate what makes this relationship

by what it doesn't allow, by what it doesn't allow in. It excludes the other stuff, and that's what defines it. And so then you are the only one. And then there's another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness, not exclusiveness, but specialness. And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily, but whatever you are is special in its own way.

So you go to this party and these people receive you. You may not like the arrangement. You may say, I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say that's not for me. But then it doesn't come from a place of self-loading, of being in this relationship is proof that I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only.

and that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room. So there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive, but vicious, and one that is special, but somehow activates this notion that if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one, it's not because we have something else that ties us together. It's because you don't want to do that with me. Yes.

Is that a fair description? It really is. And it's a story that is not reflected really in the situation, you know. Like I mentioned this in my message that I, I don't even know if we would be right together as being married or that's not what I even fantasize about. Really, it's weird. I mean, he would be a wonderful partner and husband. Absolutely.

But it's more just this ambiguous, here's a reason to feel bad about myself. But then I, there's so many great things about it. like that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through. And then also just the joy of developing some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life. And it's funny because if I've tried to talk about this to some married friends, they'll be like, Wow, that is, you've got to get out of that. Like, run, don't walk. You must be miserable half the time.

And like, this is the recipe for disaster. And then I'm like, well, how is marriage going? Because marriage is really hard to, you know. And you've got to get out of what? What is being reinforced? That indeed you're a side gig? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think that's how they frame it. And from the outside, I can kind of see that. But that's not how he makes me feel. Or frankly, how she makes me feel his wife. I feel like they want to bring me into their fold, you know, and he makes me feel very special. He is the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable just like openly complimenting me in this way.

that is so disarming to me, you know, just be kissing or something, and it'll sit back and be like, you are so beautiful. And I don't know what to do with it, and I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people. Well, what you do with that is first and foremost, you savour it. Yeah.

Then you decide how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision. Yes. Okay. My question to you is do you feel like you need to make a decision? Or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision? Because you started out by saying, you know, shall I stay or shall I go?

and I'm listening to you telling me I'm caught between two stories, two ways to interpret my reality. That's it. In one version, I experience myself as basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement. It is an ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous arrangement. It's new. It does involve jealousy.

By the way, that's okay. It is also part of the erotic charge that there is a sense of where am I, where do I fit in, etc. So the goal is not to avoid any jealousy. The goal is to learn to live with it. Yeah. The other narrative is I've been exclusive. I've actually been many times the number one and my main experiences around that

have been not particularly kind which doesn't mean that therefore an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised but there are two narratives here and my question to you is do you feel an urgency to make a decision or do you feel that the people around you are urging you to make a decision or that there is a sense that you're being naive, you're being credulous, you're going to get hurt.

What's the context? Who, you know, where's the Greek chorus here? Yeah. It's almost like it's these like, you know, every once in a while, I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this and think, I can't do this anymore. Like, these feelings are too hard. And what's really funny is that the small circle of people I've opened up to about this who were in monogamous relationships when I first went down this path were like, get out. And now multiple couples have opened up their marriages.

And suddenly they're like, go get it, you're living the dream. Yeah, but they don't know the nightmare. And the nightmare is that by putting myself, in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself, the need to make myself be more wanted. The feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine throws me right back into my relationship with my dad

in which I hear all these etched inside my body sentences of every time I try to, what did you say? I win his love. or be approved by him, it only made me feel worse about myself. Because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible. He needed me to be one down. Yes. So I have a relationship now that evokes that for me.

Yeah, how are they all do? They all do. Okay, so it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living. living in or which identity system you're living in. At some point, the question of, am I worthy, will I be replaced? Would you notice if I need you? Would you be there if I need you? Can you take it if I am messy?

You know, I used this example of like my ex-boyfriend. I dated for three years, and he never was with me when I didn't have shaved legs. I told somebody that recently, and they were like, what? But I'm like, that is something I learned from my mother and the way that my dad commented on our appearance, you know, my whole life, to keep it together, you know. So what does messy mean? Afraid? afraid, like, angry, like showing emotions that they don't want to hear, that men don't want to hear.

And you get angry when you're afraid? The more you're afraid they would leave, the more you kick them out. And you think that when I'm afraid, I'm going to scare them, they're going to think I'm impossible to be with. Yeah. I'm thinking out loud. I need you to... Yeah, that I, you know, get... If I get angry or, you know, I felt like this gentleman that I'd been seeing, I introduced him to a friend of mine.

And I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other. And I am super tuned into that. And it actually makes me mental. And I melted down about it, you know. And I thought, this is the end because I don't get angry at men. Like, I don't, it's very difficult for me to conjure that. And so when I melted down about that, I thought, that's the end of that. That's the end of that, meaning he's not going to want to be with somebody who flares up like this, who loses her shit.

Yes. Who is so insecure, who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga? Yeah. And that night I was so elevated, like... How bad does it get? The jealousy thing, when I experience that, if I see flirtation... A green-eyed monster. It is a monster.

In real life, if I see it, if I see flirtation, it is a monster. And it's crazy. It feels like betrayal. It's threat, you know. And he was like, that was absolutely not my intent, but I'm so sorry. And what does it say to you at that moment when it sees the flirtation? It says you should be angry at this guy because he is not prioritizing you. And he will, you know, fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets, you know.

And then? And then what are you? You know? You're just like any other woman in the room to him. Also, like with it, it's like also fighting me. Like, why are you doing this? Like, you're thinking so small. Like, some women would find it hot that their man could flirt like this

and that other women were attracted to him and they would have fun with it. So not only are you just like all these other women in the room, like you're worse because you can't roll with this and give him a fucking break. Because he's a nice person and it's not intentional. But it feels like he's stabbing me in the heart. Like it is so raw. It's so powerful. We are in the midst of our session. there is still so much to talk about.

We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. And is there a connection between the rawness of feeling that bereft and enraged and how much you try to shave your legs at home? How much you used femininity to call attention? How much you worked on appearance? and appearance and appearance as in pleasing dad. Yes.

And emulating mom or doing the opposite? I had my moments. It was weird because I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger thanks to my sister and had all these. I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious, which was not like my mom, was more like my dad, who was an entrepreneur,

but the need for approval and how I reacted to men in authority position to me was like the constant and I was very in tune with all the little... How to please, how to seduce. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Yes. And so... When you see the flirting on the other side, you are competing with her? Yes, I'm competing with her. Her being the other woman. Yeah. Yeah. And at the home, did you look down to your mom?

As in she has no strength, no power, no seductive cachet. I can do better. I belong to the group of the people who are on top. I identify with the men. I'm the entrepreneur too. I can best them at their own game. That's an interesting thing. I, it was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom

because he prayed on her too. But we didn't want to be like her. No. And he was always in my ear whispering that I was, his favorite, like, was telling me that. And so the things he put down, I mean, she was a stay-at-home mom. So she was not going to go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and, you know, do all these. Which you did? Mm-hmm. You know, that still was not enough. Shocker.

It's not meant to ever reach the criteria. But you feel bad for mom. You notice the weakness of mom, her despondency, but you suddenly also know I don't want to be like mom. I don't identify with mom. So I identify with him. And so I internalize his voices inside of me, the good and the bad. And you know, you've done a number.

enough in her work to know that this is a cluster fuck. And a part of you then says, I'm going to best him at his game. I'm going to become the best seductress. That's where the number one comes in. I'm going to be better than all those other women. Because to be a number one, you need to compete against somebody.

You don't compete against the man. The woman is the pivot of this type of triangular. dynamic. And they need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more, more, more. And they need to be women who are weaker. This is the language of this kind of dynamic. It's actually very unnuanced for that matter.

So there's so many other aspects to each person, but everybody becomes just either top or bottom. Yes. Do you ever think I could stay with my lover and maybe at some point also marry. I do. In the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations. You know, it's not like this needs to end for something else to start.

I don't know that that's what you want, but I want you to switch, if you can, from the default position to the design position. From the victimhood, from the I'm not chosen, From the I'm not worthy to the what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly, creatively and responsibly. I really liked what you were saying about the stories, like that there's a couple of stories happening here. And the story of embracing this path, the thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of. of my younger self.

And I have been a very adventurous, ambitious person. Are you still? Or you're talking about a different person? I actually am. It's very weird, okay? Because I could be very brave, but emotionally, like these interpersonal relationships, I feel like I've been very held back by these old demons, you know?

the way I'm imagining on the very little that you've told me you see when you have a father

in your case it's the father who praise philanders lies embezzles etc etc

and you know it's a bad behavior but the status of this person still feels in some wicked way better than to be the victim of all of this. 100%. As the daughter, you're in a bind. You care for mom, but you don't want to identify with mom. Mom being woman.

Mom being feminine. But it's the woman. It's not just the mother. It's the woman. You don't want to be that kind of woman. And so being number one becomes this kind of default position that says I'm not the reject, the second choice. That's the way the mind of that little girl

often develops this narrative. The only way to not be that weakling, rejected, humiliated, made fun of, cheated on, is to be like him in terms of his power, maybe not in terms of his sociopathy but certainly in terms of his fob he's the number one he makes the decision

so it's an impossible bind I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person and I don't want to be like her but I want to be with the power that he has in order not to have to be like her and what is the tool I can use to have his power

is the seductive tool. What do you take with you from our conversation? I hoped that I would get some different looks at this from the standpoint of the stories, like the story that is, I'm telling myself, it's being told to me that my jealousy is telling me. And I very much feel like I have gotten that. and that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it.

I'm in conversation with a narrative about what's happening here. Where would you like to put this jealousy, the piece that represents it? Where should it be put in your house? Burying it in the backyard is probably not the right answer. It either is to get buried in the backyard, or put in the middle of the mantle. Okay. All right.

Would you, would you, is it, there's a sense which one feels more conducive? The mantle. Yeah. All right, go. Get up and go put it there. And then we'll say goodbye. Okay, I'll be right back. Yep.

All right. So it would be there in the middle. love the mantle, ready for any conversation. So with our conversation, which is now wrapped around this, what you call it? My lucky cat. You're lucky cat. And turn to it when you need to talk or when you need to listen differently. But have it be outside of you. It's pretty powerful in the living room. It was always there. But now it has a different symbolism.

If you want, you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis, and you come and you can reflect with it. But you want to sort out the stories. They're bleeding into each other and they're making your life too confused. Thank you so much for this. is such a, such a joy.

Thank you. All right. And bye-bye. Bye. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call.

Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at esteraparel.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perre? is produced by magnificent noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi,

Kristen Muller, and Julian Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.