Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Are You Abandoning Me or Am I Suffocating You?

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

Twin brothers come to Esther with a shared question: how do they break free from the conflict that has shaped their relationship for years? One feels smothered, the other abandoned, and together they are caught in a cycle of pursuit and withdrawal that neither knows how to escape. With Esther, they explore how to loosen the grip of old roles and find each other again, not just as twins, but as two distinct people learning how to stay connected without losing themselves. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi Esther, this is Michael. And this is Tyler. And we're trying to figure out how to do our conflict dance different. We're twins, or 31, I experience some of what happens in our conflict as smothering. And I experience it as abandoned. And we're trying to find a different way to work through this because it usually gets quite frustrating. and there's a lot of times where I go radio silent or I don't know what happens on your end. I get anxious and reach out.

And so we are still struggling to kind of manage this paradox, as you usually put it, and we're willing to talk about it. Yeah. We're both social workers, so that may affect some of this. Right, we might be intellectualizing a lot of stuff. So if you give you back to us, that would be great. We are open and ready whenever you are. Thanks.

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Hi, hi. Nice to meet you. See, nice to meet you too. How did we find ourselves here? Well, we listened to you a lot, separately and together. And I really appreciate your insight, and this relationship here is like the one that is the most precious to me and both of us, I think. and it's fraught with old things that at least both of us want to work on. And who had the idea of working on it with me?

That's a good question. I don't remember. Did you start? I think you did start, Michael. Yes, on a whim. So I applied on a whim. and the whim said, gosh, I want to deal with what? What was the win?

How I experience it is the operatic feelings behind our disconnection. At one point, well, when we went off to university, there was the first time we separated in a big way, besides moving to another room when we were in fifth grade and doing separate extra-curricular activities. And the feelings have remained the same, even though we've worked on our relationship a bunch, but the feelings behind that separation have stayed there.

And there are feelings of what? For you? For me, resentment sometimes. Mostly resentment. because I've often felt trapped in Tyler's expectations of wanting to remain in contact with one another all the time, not all the time, but pretty often, sometimes within a 24-hour period. And sometimes that's stifling, not all the time. So your reaction to his pursuit of you is, I need more space?

Yeah. And your reaction of him is? Yeah, resentment. I think it's a similar feeling. Okay. I feel abandoned. I'm the pursuer and he's the pull away. often

let's qualify this has always been the model this is recent how would you say it's always felt eternal I think because of like our setup as children which was

so when we were born we were born three months premature and I had a touch of cerebral palsy that affected my left leg. So I got a lot of medical attention until I was 10 years old. And Michael, when we were born, had holes in his heart and lungs and was flown to Boston Children's. And so I got a lot of attention because I had a lot of need. And Michael was both closeted and I think gave a lot to me. I remember it as like watching him walk, and so I got to learn how to walk well.

So you got ongoing attention and he got acute attention? It's a good way to put it. Acute, how so? Like when attention was on me, it was like for a period of time and it was big, but it wasn't every night the way that we had to take care of you. Yeah. So when you say I've been the pursuer, is there a connection between that? And I watched him walk and I learned how to walk.

I've never made that connection. As in he was always ahead of me. He was always in front of me, more than ahead of me, baby, but in front of me. And I was trying to meet him, to catch up with him. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the images. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, even when Michael came out, that was a big moment because I was resentful. I was like, you had lied to me. I think that was like the first words out of my mouth when he came out, which is horrible. And I'm still so sorry about that. I imagine you've had time to rectify that one. We've talked about it a lot. Yeah. And there was a period of time.

And probably still some, like, where I'm like, man, I really wish I was gay as well. Because in so many ways, he was, to me, the model of, like, what it meant to be a human. Yeah. Like a full human. Were you the first person he told to? No. And that was in peace for you that you thought you were more special and he would come to you first? Mm-hmm.

I'm looking at you. Michael. It's not how I experienced it, you know, because you were the most important. And so... That's why you didn't go to him first. Yeah, I needed to audition it with my parents first. And then you were the next. Your parents poured themselves into each of you as soon as you were born, right?

Yeah. Yeah. They were so loving, our soul. loving and so my mother says she was born to be a mother and I can only imagine that was heightened after she learned that she was going to have twins. So we've both experienced it as very wonderful our childhoods but a lot of pressure because of it I think. Pressure as in what? The straight A's be the perfect children don't fall out of line to the thing that's expected of you. You are a miracle.

Yeah. Live by your title. Yeah. Miracle has been a word that's been used not just by our mother, but by like both sets of grandparents when they were alive. But what you're telling me, if I understand, is that you have mostly been described in the first pronoun plural, a we. and your challenge at this moment is how can you amplify the eye? I think it's both. We have been a we for so long.

We've explored our individual lives a bit. And now we're trying to, I think, come back together somehow. I'm married, he lives in another city. We've got different lives, but when we do get together, It takes a bumpy period to get back into connection with one another. And honestly, I think both of us just wish that we could do away with the bumpy part. Yeah. Describe me the bumps.

Who visits who? I visit him. Usually? Yes. And that's a part of the bump? Yes. Yeah. Acknowledged?

It was more acknowledged maybe when we were younger. like I would go see him in college and I would be like why aren't you visiting me more? Like you don't care about me that kind of thing. But now it comes in the form of why didn't you get back to me right away

what was going on? And so I have to explain oh I was doing the dishes or whatever, I went to bed earlier or I was watching a movie or I was whatever and I'm here I'm here now with you. So we've tried to make it a steady thing

of talking once a week, but sometimes even that. On my end, I perceive that you think that that's not enough. So the bumps have something to do with scheduling and something to do with... Unrequited hunger. Yeah. It's not as amplified when I'm in a relationship, which is also a lot of pressure on my partner, I think, because the hunger is directed towards them

instead of him. And I experience it almost as a relief sometimes, but then he's with a new woman, I don't know, pretty often. So then it's not a relief that lasts. And you're saying when I have a girlfriend, I transfer that need onto her. Yeah, I think it's depend. More recently, not as much,

yeah, I think it's still there. You experience your relationships often as like kind of love bombing, yeah? It's like big and fast and wild. That's kind of scared me, you know, those feelings, if they're that intense so quickly, I'm like, oh, it's not going to work. But if I understand something, as long as you are experiencing your hunger, and your pursuit primarily with your brother. You can say it's because my brother is distant,

it's because my brother doesn't show, it's because my brother is responsive but not initiating, it's because my brother holds his distance. But once you start to experience it on a regular basis with your girlfriends, then you begin to say, maybe my hunger is my hunger, not in response to a specific person but in response to a specific relationship

which usually involves deep intimacy, trust, connection and which I feel with my twin and which I feel in my romantic relationships and something inside of me is left unsatiated Yeah is that that's right it's hard to like disconnect my hunger from yeah michael until i see that in that

relationship but but then i don't know yeah michael's like an easy scapegoat and i've tried to figure out how to navigate those feelings through my own therapy with my therapist and i still don't have a good place for them. What do you know about them? How have you made sense of them for you? Why is it that I often feel left hungry, somewhat lonely, as if I do all the work? If I wasn't pursuing, I wouldn't necessarily hear from them or really infrequently. I have to work so hard to be loved.

Yeah. So far it's desperation as like the understanding that I have of it. Like this intense need from something outside of myself. It seems that I seek out like some attention or like excitement because originally with Michael, I thought that looking at somebody, I got. like a lot of like validation that I existed and then without it I feel empty but I'm still seeking this excitement and that's boring the emptiness is boring and so far I've labeled the desperation as bad or the boredom as bad does that make sense I feel like I'm jumbling my thoughts but do you want him to interpret you

See what he understands? Michael usually he does. How do you understand what he just said? When you feel lonely, what rushes in most is boredom. When you feel that boredom, you want to do something with it, get into a relationship, or make poetry or, you know, do something big with it. What I'm hearing, and this is maybe totally off, you know, but something in the way you spoke made me wonder,

do you feel legit? Sometimes when we, for whatever reason, don't really feel legit like we have a right to be here. We seek legitimization through the way that other people relate to us. They make us feel worthy. They make us feel deserving. they make us feel lovable

and it's not because you were not loved because your mom and dad seem to have showered you both but there's something maybe in the 10 years of treatment medical attention it's like when you get so much medical attention you don't get

personal attention even though supposedly you get personal attention but it's well I was a problem to fix yeah Okay. That was the implicit message that I got, yeah. You were a problem to fix, or you were an adored child who had some problems that needed help?

Yeah, that's the struggle. It's hard for me to connect to that. Go ahead, Michael. You seem to want to say something. Yeah, I want to understand why you feel it so deeply. Like, the first thing you say is abandoned. You know, it's a big, deep thing. And when we were having, you know, when it was like helping you with your leg and stretching it with you or whatever, it wasn't because like you were a problem. It was because it was like, oh, it's kind of fun.

It made me feel useful a little bit, but that's not really how I interpreted it as a kid. It was more like, oh, this is just spending time. And it didn't feel like a problem. So I want to know how, where it turned into. you're feeling like a problem. Like there's something about the language of like illegitimate as a human that resonates because I'm hearing you say that

and knowing that that's real for you, but not connecting like whatever I was as a kid as an identity to that. Like I can see dad setting up electrodes on my leg and like the cast.

But I don't feel like a like a personal connection to it. So when you're saying like this is an enjoyable experience for me, I'm not like, I don't feel the experience. So that makes sense. And abandoned, like, I think that's just a feeling. Like, it's not that deep to me. We have to take a brief break.

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Say more about the problem. Because the word is very loaded. And it seems to still linger when you pursue him as well. And then it enters into your mutual resentments. You, because you feel that he's not there for you, and he because he feels that no matter how much he will be, there it won't ever be enough.

You're shaking your head. And neither of you like it and you adore each other and that's there too. But every time you pursue him, part of you is angry at him for not responding sooner. And part of you is disappointed with yourself for pursuing him. Yes. I didn't know that. That's the second part. because every time he pursues you and it's unrequited, the problem grows.

It's an instant disidentifier from me. What do you mean? Like, I don't say I experienced my childhood. Like, that's not the first narrative that comes up. It's I had an issue and therefore I was taking care of. And so my issue was the thing that experienced my childhood. Does that make that? I'm all confused.

I'm just trying to answer your question of, like, talk about the problem. You can actually, I can invite the part of you that defines itself as the problem to speak for itself. It has a very clear voice. It's okay. It's hard to speak. Michael, you don't know me as well. let me introduce myself. I am.

I'm confused a lot, and I feel like I don't want to be a burden to you. But I do feel that way. And I want you to be proud of me. And like seeing as you're equal. And it isn't just you, it's also dead. It feels weird to be a problem because you have your own life and your own problems. Like, and I feel like I've taken up too much space.

Yeah. I think I'm, I have like shame, but I've never spoken with my heart. I wish I could fix it. I wish I could make it feel better. can't and I love you and I can't tell you a billion times how much I don't feel that you are a burden to me I only have compassion you know and I have problems but you have yours too it's it's okay you're not mutually exclusive you know I kind of want to hear more of this more often you don't often hear him speak like this

not like in himself, in the problem. It's more, why weren't you there, you know? It's more of a, not blaming, but of putting the, seeing that problem outside of himself. And it gets a little confusing like you started by saying, you know. I'm just so open to hearing it. Really because I can't do anything about it. Like, all I can do is listen.

I've never had the language, I think. I didn't realize that I've been separating a problem for myself. I think if I were able to identify with a problem more, I wouldn't feel like I'd need to run to my call or get resentful, but to speak with my problem. I don't know, have some empathy for myself. Where did it fit for you, Michael? I guess I would worry less about you.

And know that you can do it all, not all on your own, but this part can be not put on me and it would free me up a bit to be like, yeah, what's he doing? I'm not going to anticipate a phone call where it's going to be, like, okay, I have to take care of him. And I can just, you know, pick up and talk and it won't be a big deal. So part of what you are resisting

is that you experience when he reaches out to you, that they become caretaking missions? Yeah. And that he on occasion asks you how you are, but that's not really the focus of it's pretty equal

it's really just about that initial picking up the film okay so it's a fear but it's not really what happens you anticipate burden weight responsibility freight but it's not

actually what happens sometimes it is it does happen often it doesn't but I think yes most often I'm thinking, oh, what am I going to have to help with now? Yeah. Which I know it's not true.

It's just the way it feels. It sounds like you, you're asking yourself before you get on the phone, am I dealing with Tyler or am I dealing with the problem? Like, if we're going to use that language, who's speaking to me here? Yeah, immediately. If we get on the phone, you say, how are you? And I'm like, I'm good. I know you want a specific response that's going to be emotional.

So that then you can get emotional that. Then we can both get emotional. Then we can mirror each other. Then we get, you know, like that thing. And I'm like, I just want to pick up the phone and say, hey, how are you? Good, good, good, great. What was going on? Cool.

Let's play a game. You know, it doesn't have to be that fear that I have, which is just this, like, tight knot. Which reinforces me feeling this, like, resent, like, like, Well, how do I pick up the phone then? I'm not always going to feel happy or like some days. I don't know. No, but if it's most often coming from a place of I feel abandoned, it's going to feel like a big heavy conversation regardless of if that's a big feeling or not,

the word was loaded. It is, how can I not respond emotionally? Because that's quite emotional language, you know? Is that the greeting? It's, hi, how are you? What, no, it's like, how are you feeling? And then I come with a feeling thing, and it's like this thing that wasn't there for so long,

and it only started when you became a therapist. So then we can get to these deep crux issues, and I'm like, why does that have to be issues that we're talking about? That is not all the time, but like, I guess it's the fear I have of, like, how it might be all the time. Sorry.

No. I love that. I mean, there's a reason we both became therapists. And like the therapy room, especially has been for me, not something of like, of,

I've been working on. Like, this isn't a problem to fix. You know, like you don't always have to come to therapy to have, to be a problem, to have a problem. So that when I ask,

how are you feeling? It doesn't have to mean, let's talk about the problem and yours seems well I don't need to like be upset with you but yours is you bring

levity to the room and obviously it's more complicated than that and like you give more than that you're your own therapist but like can I circle back to something you said before because I

make a big distinction between I have a problem and I am a problem. Or what I sense that you were alluding to before is I was a burden. And I sometimes thought their lives would be easier if this burden wasn't there. And at the same time, I got so much attention because I had my challenges and I had some serious health concerns. And so I didn't learn. that I can get attention by just being light and fun and playful.

That's his script. And then you said something about talking from your heart and not from your resentment, but more from a feeling of shame. And then you kind of departed from that again and you went back to your usual scripts. And it's very important for me to see them but part of why we're here is because you both are getting tired of your usual scripts. You can roleplay each other and you'll be perfect to the teeth of what the other person says, feels and breathes.

Yeah. But the problem was talking actually with a fair amount of kindness before. And I just want to invite it back. and we are just using this word because it's the one that you uttered before and we can name it anything we want you want thank you it's an invitation for both of you to go inside of you rather than do the protective i'm going to blame you and that's for both of you by the way I'm going to make us cry I just like I often want to thank you for protecting me

like you reaching out to do this or speaking first because I don't know how to express myself and I admire you for that protecting you from social interactions. I keep thinking about, you know,

kind of hiding behind my goal when we're kids because I didn't know if I'd be judged or hurt. When you're saying invite us to talk about some place from inside of us, I immediately want to say like I miss being

children together. It's something I mourn most often and I miss the lightness of it because I did experience it as something light that I could just draw you out and easily make you laugh and we could just kind of giggle for a long time. And when I go inside with you, like if we're around each other, I experience such life, you know, like such vitality, it's such fun, you know? and I most often want to give that to you, give that to us, you know, because it's just so nice to connect there.

I would love to do that with you and like for you to bring that to me too, you know. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from Hintwater. Let me ask you, How is your relationship with water? No, I'm not asking whether you enjoy the rain or whether you like to swim or whether you're a Pisces.

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To talk is very nice, but it's not the same as to play. Michael actually, before this session, he's like, she's probably going to ask if we ever make time to play with each other. Here she did. How predictably is she? No. Not so. Well, it wouldn't matter so much. The play wouldn't matter so much if we didn't have the crux as to why we'd come in.

in here, which is like we don't often experience each other as this fun light thing all the time. How often do you initiate, Michael? Once a week, maybe. Initiate. Yeah. It's not the same as feel obligated. I got to figure that out. They've become mixed up.

Yeah. I've begun to write music, and when I write music, it's like an easy, way for me to just be like, hey, let's talk. I want to share something with you. This is nice. This is fun. Not, is he worried about me? Am I worried about him? You're not going to, whatever. So it's kind of an excuse to like connect without having to be so blocked. You both worry about each other or primarily you worry about him? I don't know if you worry about me. I don't know if I worry about you. I'm excited to hear about your life.

But you think his life is easier than yours? Michael's. Yeah? I mean, it's a strange word, but you get what I'm asking. Yeah. And you've thought that for a long time.

He has an easier time than me. He's lighter than me. That doesn't mean it's easier. Why did you just swallow? Oh, okay. both of you actually stopped midway so you came in to defend me and I'm not asking for it it's a feeling it's like it is how I felt I'm not saying it's like right it's also not about it right or wrong it's it's there's envy there's a sense that he's had it easier he may have

had it easier on some things maybe not on others but they're not the ones that are most significant to you. And he looks at you and responds to you from exactly that place. He too, on some level, thinks he's had it easier than you. He doesn't think his lightness is all

there is to him, but you do on some level, you know, you have this sequential girlfriends and it comes in into little comments. You go on a motorcycle and he goes

goes on a motorcycle and like bangs up his body and like does this big physical risky things you know he does yeah you not you no he does yeah that's like how else how else can I relate to you besides worrying we'll become a therapist but there's also I want to be able to do what everybody else does tired of always defining myself through that limitation I mean, I'm improvising here, but... And then looking at your bodies and faces to know if I'm on track or not. But here's the thing I was thinking. I said, the thing about twins, identical twins,

is that you actually think you know each other inside out. And on the one hand, you totally do. There's something that no other unit in the human spirit, she can have that. But on the other end, it also at times curtails curiosity because you know what's to ask.

And I'm imagining that in fact, especially as you grow older and as you begin to have more separate lives, not just geographically, but also, you know, they're not carbon copy, you're not in front of the mirror, you're not just extensions of each other, et cetera. is that you actually realize there's somebody to discover.

There's something to explore here. There's some questions to ask. There's less assumptions to be made. And that can have on the one side, ah, that's uncomfortable, because I like to feel like this is a territory that's utterly transparent to me called you. And on the other side,

this is an amazing thing to have a territory that feels so familiar. an inside world that I think I know by heart to realize that no, not so much. And to me, a bit of what you're going through, this is one aspect, because there's many ways to look at it, but it's a developmental transition. It started with college, but it continues,

in which you have been so defined through how much you identify with each other, and now comes the stage of how you will differentiate from each other. And that process of differentiation, you are what is called monosigot twins, right? So how do you do that? It's biologically challenging or interesting. So let alone it being psychologically so.

Can I suggest something? Of course. There's no permission to be asked. We mirror each other. I kind of want to get rid of the language, you know, because it's... I don't know if I would have said it as correctly. Mirror means a feeling that when I look at you, I see me. Yeah, that thing.

It's that. It's pretend we're not each other's mirror because we're not in a way, you know? You know, I met another couple of identical twins here, of which one came out. gay and the other was straight and one of the members descendants I always remember is about how when they would do business together one would pass for the other because he felt that in their small town Texas as a gay man he stood no chance and so when they would not know which one of the two he was he would literally meld blend himself into the identity of his brother

And I visualized it as he was describing it. And I thought this way of being able to blend in with each other. That's what for me is the image of the mirror. But please give me yours because it just was my association. You want to get rid of it. You want to get rid of what? The obligation to blend, you know, and just come at each other with not. knowing. But you think that the sense of obligation is what Tyler puts on you, or do you see

your sense of obligation also as emerging from you? I'm not sure. No, Tyler's worked on a lot of things and he's been able to not bring that to me. So I do think most often now it's coming from inside of it. And it says what when it speaks to you? I'm going to have to put out a I'm going to have to mirror. I don't know what other word it would be. I'm going to have to go back into this thing that I never really felt like was there. It might be sometimes, but we're always different. So I don't know.

It kind of says, like, don't make me into something that I'm not. Which is an extension of half of a twin. Yeah. which we are. What's wrong with that? The joy in living has been like learning our differences. Like all my hopes for you, all my like, I don't know. I wish life wasn't so hard so often, you know.

I didn't feel like such a intense thing. But I don't know if that causes you any issues, but. It's loving. I see you dive so quickly into so many parts of life in a very big way, in a fiery way. And it's beautiful and also causes me worry. And I work most with my therapist to learn to let it go, to let you go. And knowing I can't control you or do any, you know, let you. Yeah, I can't control you.

And control how you're right. react or what you bring to me or whatever. So that's the big thing I wanted to say was that regardless of how you affect me or anything, that I hope that life can be fun for you too. Not so heavy. Thank you. I wish I could get rid of the expectation that you have for me. I'll work on it. The expectation that you too could enjoy life with more levity without endangering yourself? Yeah.

If I understood you well, he experiences a recklessness. Yeah, you've gone to a motorcycle accident and was in the hospital I don't know, last year, was it last year? And, you know, everybody's sobbing around

him and he wakes up and he's like, why is everybody crying? And when I heard the news it was very life ending you know I mean if you died I feel there'd be such a big part of me that would die and I you know don't want to lose you and then you know in these past few whatever months you said

oh I'd get on a motorcycle again and I'm like Jesus Christ again and it isn't just that it's with women too it's like oh just ride or die. Like she is amazing. This is so wonderful. I'm in love, you know, a week in, two weeks in. And I'm like, why does it have to be so, you know, big?

And will I always have to worry because of it? And so I'm learning to just let it, try to let it go because there's nothing I can do. And my hope comes from that of like I hope that it isn't always that way for me, But for you too, because you have to risk your life to try to live it. Yeah. See that again? You don't have to. We don't have to risk your life to try to live it.

You just brought a whole other layer to your description of your worry or of your obligation. I think you clarified a lot. And it's way beyond what you started with when you talked about resentment. There's fear. Not just worry, there's serious fear. There's grief. There's love. There's lightness and laughter.

There's a lot of different things in this very rich, layered, deep. relationship. I think that when you get annoyed with each other and you kind of go to the first floor, resentment, you're missing the boat. You're letting your annoyances direct the play when in fact there's so many more things going on. There's also envy, there's also abandonment, there's also of shame, a lot of different, very complex emotions here. I feel that I have a lot of work to do. And I like that you brought up curiosity with each other. And I think in exploration about the mirroring and the biological piece to that

versus the psychological one is important for me. I think that I would like to add on this menu, also your deeper understanding of the fear that your brother has. I think when he just says, I worry about you, it's way more complicated than just this level of the statement. It's echoed in my mother and my sister too. Okay. Thank you very much. I know we're leaving this with three dots at the end of a sentence. But I hope it creates a movement for you to continue it.

Yeah, it does. Thank you. Thank you. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you.

Send your question to producer at esteraparel.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel as produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if, like what if it does it? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca.