Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - As They Like Me More, I Like Myself Less

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

They are new mothers after a long wait and they are both struggling in their roles at the same international organization. One can't seem to get out from under her father's shadow to maintain an agreeable relationship with her male bosses, and the other is just returning to work after staying at home to take care of their child--a role that she never quite wanted. Please take this survey to help us plan for the future: estherperel.com/survey  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It doesn't matter the gender of the bosses? Most of the time we're men. And is the source of the discontent similar? Most of the time it's because I consider them extremely incompetent and arrogant at the same time. It's either one or the other. I mean, you can't be both. You can't be incompetent and arrogant. And arrogant. To me that's a bit too much. Howe's work is an unscripted, one-time counseling session focused on work. For the purposes of

maintaining confidentiality, names, employers, and other identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. With Admi on the new Google Pixel 9 Pro, never rely on a stranger again. Add yourself to any group photo through the magic of AI. Get yours with TELUS at telus.com slash pixel9pro. When I first meet a couple, I meet them on paper. I read the summary of the intake interview that my producers do. And as I read, my mind goes into what matters here? What's important to gather the basics in order to begin layering the scaffolding of this relationship? And I'd also decided that as I met them, I would just introduce what I had gathered from the story. Let me tell you what I know about you so far. This is what I picked up. You are together nine years. You are working in the same international organization. You are working in the same international organization.

You are new parents of a 10-month-old little boy. You met in Italy and then went together to girlfriend, spouse, which induced some fear in you because that is also what you saw at home. Dad had a career, mom followed suit. And for the first time, you also were working from home or with home, as I like to say. And since you work in the same organization, you actually got to see each other at work in ways that you never had before. And so you discovered some aspects of each other that you previously were not as familiar with, including that she may be sweet and smiling and petite,

but she is fierce at work, or what you call intense, and that she has a recurrent problem with bosses. And that recurrent problem with bosses seems to be reminiscent of a certain dynamic that you had with your father, whose attention and praise you always sought, but then when you got it, didn't think it was enough. And what you got to see on the other side is that your partner, your wife, that your wife is actually as equally friendly with the people at work as she is with you.

You're not even getting special treatment. It's just who she is and you're the beneficiary of it and that you are wondering since I've had many jobs and it's always me leaving because I don't get along with the boss maybe it's not always the boss that's the problem because I'm the constant factor what am I did I did I get it do I miss things I think you got it completely it's very impressive we can leave now analysis is done

this is just this is us putting the buffet together now what we need to delineate the menu these are the options all perfect when I meet these two women delineate the menu. Yeah, yeah. These are the options. All perfect. When I meet these two women,

first of all, we all have an accent. And I asked them to pick some names. And interestingly, they both immediately choose American-sounding names. As if to say, our story is broader and transcends the borders and the boundaries and the specificity of our accent.

So they are Nina and Kay. Where shall we start? So one of the main reasons why we're here is changing jobs because of this very strong push factor, which has always been your bosses. And you've changed many different jobs. What's your timeline? Six months? Nine months?

Two years. Two years. It's not bad. But just because it takes time to find... A year and a half. By a year and a half, you start looking. Then it takes about six months. And before the looking, how much time

obsessing about why it's not working? I would say the honeymoon lasts about six to eight months. Then it's up to a year to say again, really, it's happening. And then six months, maybe I should change. And then this is it. So what is it that makes Nina able to switch at a speed that is uncommon in the field?

You're very good, and everybody recognizes that. You get a lot of recognition at work. You work in a very specific sector, so there aren't many of you which, you know, can help in a way. So people know you, your reputation arrives. These push factors of bosses that make you miserable is there. They know it. Some, most of them are quite vocal, yeah. Yeah, but maybe they don't know the extent to which they make you miserable. So I'm never very open about how difficult the situation is. I'm not used to confront people.

So when I do, it's because I reach the limit. That's a clear childhood pattern. I wasn't allowed to confront my father. So that's clearly happening here too. Doesn't matter the gender of the bosses? Most of the time we're men. Only in one case, it was a woman. It's easier for me to have a little bit of friction with men, for sure. And is the source of the discontent similar? Most of the time is because I consider them extremely incompetent and arrogant at the same time, which is a combination which I don't. It's either one or the other.

I mean, you can't be both. You can't be incompetent and arrogant. To me, that's a bit too much. Because the arrogance associated with power has a lot of repercussions on my work. If you are simply incompetent and you let me be, fine. You know, we go along. And if you are arrogant and good, I don't have much problem in following you because I recognize the leadership.

Unfortunately, most of the time where I had problems was a combination of two. So I didn't recognize the leadership, but I was forced to follow. One other question. Do you find yourself as the main person or even the only person at odds with your boss? Or is this systemic? But you have enough power that you actually can even voice your complaint. It's definitely systemic most of the time. I'm not sure it's just power. It's just that I seem to be less able to stand it than other colleagues.

Other colleagues say, oh, yeah, whatever. Fine. Tomorrow is another day. But something sits with me way more than with other people. Editor? Thank you. editor thank you um even when you were working in in the other office in africa there maybe it was it was only you i well in africa the issue was a particular one because i think that you know we are always focused about the fact that i change work because there is a boss I don't go along with. And this is true. Most of the time, there is a part that is, I'm ambitious. There is something in me that I cannot even explain

why I always look for the next challenge. I mean, in the middle of the pandemic, I started my third master. How cool could one can be? I mean, it's fantastic. I loved it. But how much it has impacted on our life. I mean, I worked every single, I studied every single weekend for 18 months. Sometimes I don't even know why I'm doing it. Why am I getting into things that do not necessarily are things that make me happy? Well, one thing that doesn't help is that every time you, well, when you started working in this organization, every time you changed jobs, every time you went up another level,

you got a lot of praise from a certain person and a lot of recognition from your father, and it made him really happy. Although he has never explicitly asked for it. Yeah. He doesn't need to. But he doesn't need anymore because he planted such good seeds

when you were a child. He doesn't need to give directions anymore. And you are the extension of it. You're part of the congratulatory chorus? Well, I... There is a lot, I mean... I think I'm really looking to help

and support you. I've always been interested in the alternative resume that people bring to work, not just where they've worked and what positions that they've had, but their alternative resume as in their relational history. And Nina has just given us such a beautiful example of how her professional trajectory intersects with her relational history. She actually has it clear for her why she reacts to certain things, what gives her the drive, what is it about the recognition that she's aspiring to. And I'm listening to her, and now I'm looking to Kay, and I'm thinking, and how does Kay fit into this?

And your role is, you're not necessarily congratulating, but you are a harmonizer. You are the person that doesn't give her grief for it. A, you're massively understanding. You know your partner. Yeah, she taught me how to be understanding. Yes.

She was very good. That is true, but I also know that even in work, you are the person who makes sure to get along with everyone. You are a harmonizer. Yes. And that she didn't teach you. Now, you know, what is interesting is you've mentioned her father three times, and I know none about your own genitori, but they must be somewhere present in this conversation too, if I don't, right? So you are a harmonizer. You certainly, the last thing you want to do is stand in the way of someone.

You'll make it happen. You'll adapt. You'll figure it out. And hopefully you'll get a thank you at the end too. I mean, both of you are looking for certain thank yous or ahas, but with a different trajectory. You know? So give me a tiny bit of background.

Yes, you're right. I'm a harmonizer because I feel discomfort when there's conflict, when people around me don't get along. I'm very much a people's person. I really enjoy working with people in teams. I grew up in a very solid family, father, mother, brother. We traveled quite a lot because of my father's work. My mother followed along. So she had a career when we were back in Italy. But when we were abroad, she was the wife of.

But she elevated her role. She really gave the best of it. So her role entailed more or less optionally social events, dinners, fundraisers. And she was very good at it and always had a way to do it seamlessly. And he recognized it? Always. He was very grateful, always recognized. So very solid couple.

Not so good, neither of them in expressing or recognizing negative emotions. In general, in life, everything was more on the positive side. The glass was often half full. One of the consequences is that I am, I think I discovered a certain fear of giving space to my negative emotions because I fear that they're never going to go away. So I have a hard time connecting with them. I always had a very hard time sharing my sorrows, even with friends, because I always had a, not only I am going through a hard time, I cannot listen to wrong advice. It just gets on my nerves. Oh, you don't like incompetence either.

Exactly, exactly. So if I am opening up, which is already a huge effort, and then I hear wrong advice from friends or from her, it's too much to bear. And I think I learned from my parents to take care of my negative emotions by myself. I have a very hard time relying on other people. I had a hard time believing that Nina really was able to support me, that she was strong enough to carry me,

to carry my sorrows as well. So I have a, let's focus on the most recent sorrows. There were three in particular and they were brought up by pandemic. The first one was we were trying to have our baby and the process was not coming along. And we had been waiting for several years and we didn't know whether it would ever going to happen. And I felt very stuck.

I felt stuck in this city because it's a city I learned to like, but it's not a city where I thrive. Whereas it's probably a city where Nina thrives. But we were stuck here because of the baby process as well. We had to stay in this city to do that. I had been trying for a long time to change job and things were not moving. So yet another aspect of my life where I felt stuck. And a few years ago, my mother started developing dementia. And she's in Italy with my father.

And I know that my presence next to them would make a huge difference. And I look forward to that moment at some point in our life. So I was completely, completely stuck on this aspect. Can I go back a step? We started from I'm a harmonizer, which led us to I've always struggled with what you've defined as negative emotions, which could include sorrow, sadness, grief, anger, because there was no tolerance for it in my family, because the focus was on competence, and because they couldn't

deal with it. It's not the content of the advice, incompetent advice. it's not the content of the advice. It's the emotional receptivity of the people you're talking to. And you learned that they wouldn't know what to do with it and that they would be overwhelmed. And now you think you would be overwhelmed. So it's less about bad advice. You both use the word competence, but it's a different story. I'm hearing from you and tell me if I hear it accurately, that for whatever reason, in your family, you were encouraged to not bring feelings that would make other people anxious, helpless, unable to just create a container without having to do much of anything. And so you learned, A, not to go to anybody, but also you developed an inner fear that when these feelings emerge, there's no limit to them because there is no container, not

internally and not with your parents. And then you take this to work because we take that emotional history to work and we turn it even into a skill. But part of that may be connected also with how long it takes you to then upgrade your positions. Because nobody even knows that you're not happy at work or that you'd like something else. Maybe I want something different. I'm capable of more, you know. Oh, but it looked like you were so pleased. I can imagine people have no idea what you really think

because you've organized yourself around what they think. Where does it land on you? How do you receive this? Well, this idea that I do not bring negative emotions at work. And it's true. One of them is lack of control over my stress, lack of control over me feeling overwhelmed. Because if I lose control over my stress, my emotion, there was fear, then I'm not going to be safe. Then I'm going to be seen as incompetent. Whereas if I keep everything under control, I'm going to be safe, and I'm going to be able to control what happens in the process

and everything else. Another thing is that my mother especially has always been a problem solver of all kinds, practical, emotional, there was always a solution. And I absorbed that skill magnificently. But then when Nina was sharing her issues with me, my first reaction was always, oh, we're going to solve this. We're going to solve this feeling. We're going to solve this grief to the point where she was able to tell me, I don't need you to solve this problem. I need you to listen. Can I suggest something? Sometimes problem solvers who can see themselves as competent advice givers

are also people who actually can't tolerate problems. They can't tolerate the stress and the anxiety that problems elicit. And so they present themselves as problem solvers. But in fact, they're also anxious people who can't tolerate a problem that doesn't necessarily have an immediate solution, which is what Nina was trying to say. I just need to tell you how I feel about something. And, you know, because when you solve the problem, you shut it down. You basically are trying to solve the problem to make it go away because you cannot tolerate whatever she's going through which is probably what happened between you and mom as well. Yes, yes. So whenever she solved the problem she basically was like okay okay

okay let's take care of this and make it end. Yeah, done. Over. Yeah. Next. Mm-hmm. That is not problem solving. That is management of anxiety. That is overwhelmed. That is the fear of the loss of control or the lack of control that manifests itself as a pseudo problem-solving skill. The reframe here is that what has always been interpreted as problem-solving is actually seen now as problem avoidance. It's not about the specific issue that needs a solution. It's about making the problem go away, whisk it away as fast as possible,

because it brings up a lot of tension, pressure, anxiety. So we really are talking about management of discomfort that happens to also sometimes solve a problem. And as we continue this exploration, and she keeps going, yes, yes, yes, with her head, you're on track, this is it. It also becomes clear that what happened in the pandemic, when the problems they are, what Ron Heifetz, the psychiatrist at Harvard calls adaptive problems,

problems that don't have an immediate solution. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Your group photos are likely missing someone important. You! With Admi on the new Google Pixel 9 Pro, never rely on a stranger again. Add yourself to any group photo through the magic of AI. Get yours with TELUS at telus.com slash pixel9pro. And what made the pandemic so challenging is that the three problems, challenges, developmental crises that you were experiencing did not have instant solutions. No.

You know, being stuck at home together, being stuck in the city without being able to leave it, dealingaling with struggles around fertility and adoption. Being stuck in the job that wasn't changing. Those were problems. Developmental arrests that didn't have these quick fixes. Your definition of problem solving is quick fixes. Yes. And you're good at the quick fixes. And they are very useful at work, no doubt.

But there are situations like these kinds of developmental crises that don't have a quick fix. And those situations I described that I was living through during pandemic, there was so little control I had on them. Well, one thing it implied is that you can't pick the fixer of it all alone. Yeah, pity, but... Yes, yes, yes. It's an emotion. I get it. The kind of fixer you are probably believed I can do it myself.

Yeah, it's hard for me to say I need help. It's like there's... It's a word that doesn't really come out naturally, but I know I need help or I can benefit from help. It's like there's, it's a word that doesn't really come out naturally, but I know I need help or I can benefit from help. Yes. There is a little, there's something within me that judges it and judges dependency. I have a thing with people being dependent.

And yet you're watching your mom, where this woman who was all capable needs help. You get to see her from a much more vulnerable place. Completely. So has it helped you to redefine the meaning of words like, I need help, or I don't always have a quick fix or life sometimes puts things in front of you that are overwhelming and you can learn to deal with them but they are by nature overwhelming rather than it's a personal failure if they

overwhelm me it's a personal failure if I need help, if I depend. I'm working on it. But I'm not there yet. I can see how I'm not there yet. But enough about me. Let's talk about you. I'm very happy for all this to be all about you. You know why I did what I just did?

Because I also understood from the intake interview that for a long time that is not what happens between the two of you. That Nina can take front stage easily and that works. That's part of the deal.

She can complain. She can be embattled at work. And she has the promotions, and she does the upgrades, and she makes you move countries, and she and you, and she and you. And I decided that is enough. Well, it's lopsided. Yeah, enough is what you need to say. For me, it's just like,

we're going to rebalance this for a moment. What will it look like if actually for an hour you are on the front stage? And she listens and I'm watching her and she's listening attentively and some of the things are surprising and some of the things are surprising and some of the things are just calming and um and she and she's learning what it's like to give space because when she says to you tell

me if you need something it's predicated on the notion that she knows that you want and it's definitely a dynamic it's a dynamic we've been talking about this dynamic where I decided to follow her in New York at a time where I was very happy where I was both in terms of country work friends environment but I also the moment I accepted to follow her I knew I wanted to own the decision because I didn't want to find myself 10 years later saying but I did this for you and I you know just avoid from the beginning any tension and but I didn't want her to feel it was her fault. But you're looking at it in a blame structure. Whereas what is also happening is that until now, one person's career has been defined as very important. And that same person's career that is defined as important

is the person who says, I'm ambitious. And this is the dynamic between the achiever and the pleaser. And so it's not just about coming to New York. It's that the coming to New York is a reinforcement of the notion of one person's career has been more central and that is also the story that you grew up with that your dad's career took the family all over the world and your mother made it her own decision try to not be upset about it or a victim that is the better word yes or a victim about it how do i change that i don't know if it's an eye upset about it. Or a victim. That is the better word, yes. Or a victim about it. How do I change that?

I don't know if it's an I. It's a we? Or it's a you? No. I. So where it becomes a matter of we instead of I is that if you take more of a center stage or your career take more of a center stage or your career take more of a center stage maybe it's what I need as well to you know calm down a little bit my energy particularly now

with the child I mean we we have no choice I mean but you have two different conversations that I hear primarily about work, right? One is the doing more. And the other one, they're not different. But I want just to explore how they actually connect. One is the doing more. And the other one is I seem to always be at loggerheads with my bosses, which then makes me want to go and do something more. Yeah.

But the thing I wanted to ask you is, is it each time something similar, what you end up experiencing in the relationship with your bosses? Does it come down to the same thing every time? Different color, different garb, same theme? Yeah. What is in common in all this situation is that I feel like I've never grown up in a way. When I was a child, I felt I had a lot of responsibilities, not practical stuff. I was a very privileged child that goes to school and plays and that's it. But there was pressure for me to be good in school and all of that.

And it was assumed as the normal. But at the same time, I was a child. I wasn't completely independent. And this seems exactly the same thing that is happening in all the jobs that, you know, I've been having. It doesn't matter how high up I get into the, you know, hierarchy of the organization. I still, I feel I'm treated like that. Like a child? Yeah, with a lot of responsibilities, but still, I can't trust that you can do it alone. So this is somehow beyond the personality of my boss. The combination of responsibility with no, I would call it power, but it's not really power,

is there is always someone controlling me it's like sure you can go out until 11 but I don't give you the keys you know sure you can come back whenever but um ring me so that I know when you come back it's a little bit the same I'm given more and more work more and more more portfolio. And oh my God, Nina, you're excellent. You know, you can do this. Sure. But then there is always things that are said and situations that keep on happening

that bring me back to that moment. That moment. That moment where I was a child and, you know, everybody was out playing. I was not because I had to study. And not only I was losing the pleasure of playing, but on top of it, it was just given for granted that that was what was supposed to happen.

And still the bar was raised higher a little bit more. It's so difficult to explain that, but in work it's the same thing. And I don't necessarily think that being without a boss would solve it. Because then you think, okay, work without a boss, be your own boss. I'm afraid that I couldn't. I would be dominated by fear.

I mean, I don't know. That's where I'm stuck at. Dakin? It's fascinating because it's exactly the same theme, but on a different angle. You both see help as control, and it gets a bit mixed up in the workplace. You know, I don't want to be controlled, but I am so used to being in reaction to someone who I think is limiting me and constraining me that it's become a part of my structure. Yeah. If I don't have it, I feel like I'm alone at sea. There's no boundaries, whereas the authority offers me a boundary. But if I'm all alone and I have to say to myself, I can do it. How do I know? Yeah. Yeah.

And the flip side of it, which is that help is a loss of control or a lack of control, which is a terrible definition of the word, but we get it. We know how we got there. You're not alone with that distortion. But, you know, what I still struggle about is that while I fully recognize the fact that I would be lost without authority, I mean, I don't want to do it all alone. I've done it all alone all my life. I would love some help, but help.

You've both done it all alone much of your life. Yes. Not all everything, but in this domain, you both have been alone in ways that have been painful, difficult, isolating, challenging. Yeah. Do you have mentors? Have you ever had a mentor? No. both women are so insightful and have such a good sense of their own relational self-awareness

i don't need to do therapy here this is a coaching session what i'm clear about is that this idea that you want autonomy but you want belonging and if you have belonging, that may imply hierarchy and you are fighting the hierarchy because the hierarchy actually helps you know who you are because it allows you to say, I'm not this. Whereas if you are alone, then you have to be able to speak this to yourself. And she really gets it very clearly why she would not be her own boss. So if she doesn't want to be her own boss and she doesn't want to have a boss in the traditional sense of the word, then we also need to explore other ways for her to experience support, structure,

belonging, and autonomy. And I think one way to address this is through the exploration of a mentor. Well, we have an official mentoring program in our office, and so we had to pick a colleague. The reason I chose this colleague is because he's very calm. I say that he's very British, which is probably not the correct thing to say. But, you know, he's very calm. He thinks before talking. He never bursts into rage or nothing like that. And so I appreciate that in him.

But if I have to be really honest about why I haven't started meeting with him is that I didn't want just another piece of advice I I wanted someone to walk with you know or better I wanted a piece of advice that was coming from a deep understanding. And I was afraid not to find it. And so just for the fear of it, I just said, OK, we'll do it when I have time, which is probably an excuse. And if you went back in light of this conversation and did it differently, what would you do? Well, what would you do? Well, I would... Can you be a stand-in for mentor?

Of course. Go ahead. So I'm afraid in entering the mentorship that you will be another person that I report to on my progress. We establish goals and then every six weeks you check how far I've been. I don't need a mentor that checks how much additional training I do, how much I develop my skills. That's not what I need. What I need from a mentor

is the ability for someone to meet me where I am without asking me to go to a better place, without fixing it. Because, you know I'm hard enough on myself what I have more of a hard time of is feeling that it was okay for the rest of the world if I was stuck for a little nobody would judge me for being stuck

and maybe someone would be even understanding so that's what I need from a mentor And maybe someone would be even understanding. So that's what I need from a mentor. What you just asked from the mentor is what you would want to ask from your father. So now you had a conversation with your dad. Now we're going to have a conversation with your dad now we're gonna have a conversation with your mentor why did you choose this person don't tell that person what you don't want what you don't want is what you told your dad because that's what you've had yeah john janet janet sounds perfect What you don't want is what you told your dad because that's what you've had. Yeah. John, Jeanette.

Jeanette sounds perfect. So, Jeanette, hello. Hello. How are you? Doing great. So, why I chose you as a mentor, what I see in you is that you have a very considerate behavior in different circumstances. You get the line between a work environment and life outside. And what I appreciate the most in you is that whenever someone says something inappropriate,

you don't stay silent and participate in the joke. You just, in your very British way of saying, you just comment that that was inappropriate. So for me, it's integrity. Not, you know, just follow the leaders, whatever they say, but you remain true to who you are. And I think we have that in common, but you have a much better way of expressing it. So what I would love us to work on is communication

without fair communication meaning compromising because that's what I've seen. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Yeah. That's what I was saying. How is that? It's good. It created like a bond with the other person. But without having to bring home my story with it.

The past is not the past when it's right here in the present. Yeah. I purposefully don't want this to be a therapy session, but a coaching session. Because in effect, both of these women have done a lot of therapeutic work. They have done a lot of work on their families and they have actually been able to translate their coping strategies from home to work in very effective ways. But they've reached a ceiling and there is a way in which at this moment certain stories no longer serve and certain adaptive mechanisms are no longer adaptive and one of the places that this becomes very clear

is when I ask her what she would want to say to her mentor and it becomes clear that she's not talking to the mentor but she's talking to her dad and this lends us the lens through which we're going to really make the separation between a mentor and a parent in a way that will allow her to feel that she can communicate at work without the fear of losing it that she can stand up and speak up and experience her integrity without being afraid that she's going to be punished for it. It's those translations that now become really essential for her to continue her beautiful ascendance in her career. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much

to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. But the next thing is that you literally are going to say, this is an opportunity for me. And by next week, you will have spoken with this person. And then you bring in certain situations. What would you say? How would you approach it? How, you know, it gets to me.

I personalize it. When I see a put-down down I react to the whole history of put downs and all the power dynamics and all the gender relations and all the cultural biases and all the racist issues everything is right there so that I basically have a bottleneck yeah do you get queer bias too what do you mean can you us? Is queerness another source of prejudice in the office? Mm-hmm. Not openly. I received some inappropriate comments after I came back from maternity leave, yes.

But not about, maybe I'm wrong, but not about queerness. There was more of a gender. You never know whether it's because I'm a mother and a lesbian. Could be one of the two or both. Can you describe the situation so I know what you're talking about? Sure. So when I went on adoption leave for a period of four months. With the full support of your direct? Direct supervisor, yeah.

Full support of my direct supervisor. And, you know, all the office was very congratulatory about it. So I felt very good about it. It was something we always wanted. And the moment I came back, the head of my office called me in his office and asked me how his parenthood. And there is a suspicion that he used the word parent and not mother in a deliberate way. But this is just a suspicion. Then he went on to say that my absence has created a

lot of trouble to the office and I just said you know I'm sorry but these things happen you could also imagine saying I'm glad to know I have such an important role thank you yeah and then he went on by saying, and I expected you to be at that meeting a couple of weeks ago. And then I said, well, I was on maternity leave. And when he asked, well, nobody alerted you that you were expected to be there, I said no, because it was true.

And so that, at least I felt safe that it was not my responsibility. So in that moment, I said thank you that nobody told me. And then it cut off the conversation. Because they knew not to. Because they knew where you were. Yeah, and they decided, you know, other colleagues decided it was not my place to be. Thankfully. And then said, well, now you have a lot of work to do, so go.

Go. And it's a bit difficult to express the tone, the posture, the all. It was very painful for you. It was very painful. It was very, very painful. I was shaking, literally. And then went to my immediate supervisor and talked to her about it. And she was like equally shocked.

But we had the sort of the same emotional reaction. Which was? Which was like, this is so inappropriate. Things like this cannot happen. You know, a venting type of things, which is very natural. And I loved, I mean, for her to be so supportive because that's what I needed. I needed a hug, essentially.

But then it's one of these unsolved trials, you know, because the thing lingered. It's very hard when you don't feel safe. But at the same time, once I was in a meeting and our child was with me because he was sick and I was home with him, and he was very nice with him. You confirmed for me that it is the fear we need to talk about. You know, when you say it's not a safe place, you have to change your language because the

language shapes the experience. This place is safe. He, I'm not sure about. Or I am sure about. Whichever way you decide the place you land. But he evokes in me all the fears I had for all the years. And he becomes the representative of the thing I feared always. And here I had it. That's why him.

Because he lands on the perfect tarmac. You know, if you live with that pre-existing experience, then that response has an echo chamber. It can't just be absorbed. But the system, a safe place, is a place where somebody already spoke with him maybe not only about you for that matter and you see the result of that by the way that he's behaving he has changed behaviorally yeah and. And part of you says, I don't necessarily need to change his mind.

But you can always say to him, it's very nice to see you playful with my little boy. Do you know if he has kids? Yeah. Okay. So, you know, ally with him. Assert yourself as the mother that you are. Yeah. Engage him as the mother that you are. Engage him as the father that he is.

As he said, parenthood. Maybe parenthood was a way for him to, you know, who knows? You don't know if it was a way to not recognize your motherhood or a way to actually be trying to be neutral about it, inclusive. God, these days. So the only way you know is by having the next conversation, by context. We may be right and we may be completely off. Yeah. But we live in fear.

Yeah. And that's why you have a supervisor. Yeah. That's why you have other people with whom you bring this up. Yeah. I don't have to do it alone. It's an empowering vision because it doesn't fail the little one against the monster. Maybe when I got into the office, I was the little one because the moment, you know, the monster spoke, I immediately, you know, trained.

You came back from maternity leave. You know, you're in a very new stage of life, more vulnerable. And instead of welcoming you and hugging you and saying, hello, you're great to have you back, he kind of scolds you for having been away. And if you had more distance, you'd say, oh, that's such a nice thing to hear. Instead of how glad you miss me.

Glad you miss me you know it's I think it's really important to not collapse an incident that triggers you as a sign of an entire environment and that is what fear does. Yeah. He says there are lions everywhere. Yeah. But in fact, you're in a beautiful park. Right. And he's not even a lion. Yeah.

I was very glad of what came up at the end when we talked about what is the lens of the mother that goes to work but equally important was the introducing the idea that when something lands wrong go and have another conversation check it out bring in the other people widen the lens look at the context that will help you understand the meaning of what actually happened. And that message was a very important one for me to give to them just as we were ending the session.

What is important for me is to remain true to who I am and start from there rather than trying to please him and see whether maybe if I say this this way, he will react in a more positive way. That's the thing you learned to do at home? What I learned to do at home, it was not to make my father angry. Yes. So what you're saying is the most important thing that this relationship with this boss is inviting me to do is to break a pattern in which I try to endear myself to someone who is more critical and less appreciative or less complimentary

and to prove to them that I can, that I am. And in the process, as they like me more, I like myself less. Yeah. Because I lost myself at a certain point. It's never the same thing that can make someone happy. You try different ways and the focus is always the other person. Because what happens is that you go from the love me, love me, love me

to the fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. And that's why you change jobs all the time. Not only, and you get better jobs. At some point you've got enough of the love me and then it becomes fuck you. And now you start to turn the whole thing into a hostile environment. But some of it is you're doing yeah it is okay how we doing we're coming kind of close to the end but how how is this i'm happy to dig a little bit deeper to

understand what we were bringing into work from our own personal life that was making the environment respond to us in that way. You got it. Get the chair. We'll bring it home. You don't need me. work is a complicated environment where so many things happen inside us between us and others systemically on a global level and these two people are doing very well in the workplace and yet we still get hijacked on occasion. And those are the moments where we need

to be able to cipher what is the past, what is the present, how can we react differently in the moment, and how can we call upon the forces within the work environment that can help us make this complicated place a little bit less complicated. Esther Perel is a therapist, best-selling author, speaker and host of the podcasts Where Should We Begin and How's Work? To apply with a colleague or partner to do a session for the podcast, or to follow along with each episode's show notes, go to howswork.esterperel.com. How's Work is produced by Magnificent Noise.

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Howe's work are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.