Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Can I Be Loved?

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

A young woman writes to Esther asking why she is interested in someone emotionally unavailable. Despite efforts to break this pattern, she realizes that some of her behaviors are rooted in a deep sense of control and the need to feel worthy of her parents' sacrifices. Esther walks her through this need for control and how to reclaim a sense of independence. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi Esther. My question to you is, do you think it's possible to change who you're attracted to? I'm a 26-year-old woman and I've been single for five years. I feel like I have often in the past been attracted to people who are emotionally unavailable and it's taken me a long time to realize those patterns. Your podcast has really helped me to understand the dynamics between my parents, growing, up they were very bad at communicating and I think over time the ways in which they rejected each other led them to want to be independent and self-sufficient and essentially not have much of a relationship anymore. I think this has really impacted me in the way that I search for people. Recently I've felt that I have felt attracted to more available people.

But there's a lot of fear, and I think I'm not able to let my desire overcome the fear of being vulnerable, truly vulnerable, with somebody who's available. I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now. But home projects, I second-guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? And who should I even call?

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more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Let's pick up really at the end of the sentence that seems to have been cut in the middle. I have tried to open myself up to people who actually welcome me, but that is very scary. Let's start right there. Yeah. Why does it scare me so much? And what scares you? Yeah. I think there's fear for myself and I think there's fear for the other person as well. I think there's maybe a sense of like guilt about entering into something when I don't feel completely sure about how it's going to end. I think there's a fear of being trapped in something, a long term. I think that's a fear for myself that I like someone and over time I don't like them anymore. Being trapped in something

sad or unfulfilling, that scares me a lot. And that is where I look at my parents and how they were trapped and stuck? Yeah. Tell me. Yeah, I guess the communication has been really bad throughout my childhood. Between them? Yeah, between them. I think we all experience, me and my siblings experienced a lot of love and attention.

but I think they definitely didn't know how to understand each other. My mom is the like pursuer, like provoker, and my dad is like the withdrawing one. And both seem to be playing out ways that they have been neglected or were upset and hurt as children with each other. And she would pursue him in order to argue. She would pursue him requesting more connection. She would provoke him. What's the dance? If I was a camera on the wall in your house, what would I see?

I think that the provoking would come in the form of seeking support for something, but in a way that's really non-productive. Such as? seeking help with housework or a decision or wanting collaboration basically. A lot of the things I remember would be being used almost as a sort of like buffer between two people. So it wouldn't necessarily be direct towards him. It would be like a question posed to me if that makes sense. Not yet.

Okay. But I'm asking it to you with more precision because you give off the vibe that things are on the one hand etched in your body and on the other end they are rather blank. Yeah. It's like you're freezing on me. Yeah, I am. And not on me. I mean, it's not doing something to me, but don't. The closer you get to it, the more frozen you start to feel.

And to the point where suddenly you can't remember anything. Yeah, that's just what happened now. Yes, yes. And maybe that is more important than whatever else we are going to talk about because you're trapped inside yourself. You're trapped inside a past that feels totally vague and nebulous because it feels so painful. And so freeze is often.

one of our reactions. It's fight, flight, freeze, fix and form, you know. But we freeze because that way we can tune out. We can numb ourselves to the noise, to the fear, to the intensity of what's happening around us. Yeah. And when you say, I prefer to be with someone who's unavailable so that I'd that there's a preserved distance between me and that person.

In a way, you're saying, because if I do go inside and I open that up, that word I'm going to be trapped, which you said a few times, I'm not only sure that you would be trapped with the person, but that you would be trapped in the frozenness that helped you survive, but that at the same time is not allowing you to connect with anyone. Yeah. Yeah, it's happened before also. I remember that I was seeing somebody and we had a lot of conversations where my mind went blank.

And when you go blank, you have thoughts, you have melodies, you have colors, you have just physical sensations. What happens? Yeah, just physical panic. and where in the body at the chest keep your hand there it's okay it makes a difference when we can place our hand

a caring hand a gentle hand in a place that just completely shuts down and then if you can breathe inside your hand and feel your chest expand and don't force yourself to remember anything because your body is remembering.

You're having plenty of implicit memory stored in your body that remembers on the spot. The more blank you go and the more your body remembers. It tightens up and it holds it all, but it's right there. Yeah. Do you remember blanking at home? I don't, but then I think, like my sister remembers a lot of things. that I don't remember.

This is also really interesting because my dad has talked about the fact that he has a huge blank in his childhood. And does he describe anything more than the blank? Does he describe what he needed to blank from? Yeah, his parents were splitting up and my grand had a nervous breakdown and left. she moved away. She didn't come back but they were in contact after that. How old was you dead?

I think he was like 11 or 12 and he didn't talk for like a year or something. And do you remember one thing your sister remembered that you said, oh my gosh, how is it possible? I completely forgot this one. The same thing is just happening to me. Good. I'm glad you're telling me. Yeah, I can't think right now.

Okay, just put the hand right back. It's fine. It's fine. That entrapment, that sense of, I gotta get out of here. I can't take this. I need to tune all of this out. Must have been really intense. Were you 11 years old too?

I mean, there's been arguing throughout my childhood. I don't know, it feels all similar. It's okay. You don't have to force and produce something just because I ask a question. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for the show comes from Nutrafall,

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And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap, and they're done. Because when the time comes to make your first sale, you want to make things as easy for your customers as possible. With Shopify handling the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on your next steps, whether that's planning your next campaign, developing your newest offering, or taking a well-deserved nap. And Shopify says they power millions of businesses worldwide from household names like Mattel and Jim Sharp

to small businesses just getting started. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash ester. That's Shopify.com slash ester. Shopify.com slash Esther. Support for where should we begin comes from Aloha. So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal.

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Yeah, with music too. I'm a musician. And is there a song that often comes into your head in the midst of blank? Or any songs? Yeah. I hear, could you be loved by Bob Mali. So it's one particular song that comes up and kind of fills the space? Yeah, sometimes it's like made up music as well.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Because the music gives you the emotion without giving you the story. it has a powerful effect. It's something I used to listen to a lot growing up, so I wonder whether that's like in the house. It would be in the house. I think it's a lot harder talking about it than I thought it would be

because I view my childhood as very loving and it feels like blaming talking about my parents. You've been very clear that they were very, caring and loving to all three of you. Yeah. But the little girl who hears fighting around her doesn't have the reasoning that the adult has now.

Yeah. And so it's more visceral. The same loving people are being not very loving with each other. And that's scary. Yeah. And a number of wires get entangled. Oh, adult love is messy. Oh, adult love is a trap.

Oh, adult love when you no longer love the person, what the fuck do you do? Yeah. And you feel like it's your fault also because you know that you're the thing that attaching them. Like you're the reason. They're sticking around for you. Or it feels like they're sticking around for you. And I think I was aware of that.

That your parents stuck together for the children and that the other person would stick around because they wouldn't know how to leave. You know, what's interesting is that in your version of your story, other people have no agency. It's as if you're making all the decisions and they are like hapless hell plus people. They know characters of somebody else's plot.

That's not necessarily the way this goes. That is true. Recently they came to stay with me and it felt worse than normal. Yeah, I feel really responsible. I worry about what's happening when I'm not there. And is there a part of you that says I cannot connect with anybody else until my parents are okay? Yeah, that's exactly it.

I feel like I need to fix it and to help them learn and change rather than be stuck in having to. it. Yeah, I feel responsible for my parents' relationship in an over-responsible way. I can't grow up and leave and have my own life and my own relationships until I know that they are, in quote, fixed or that they are fine or that they're not going to chew each other up. Yeah, it's weird. also because I do think they need each other at the same time. You know, it feels great. It doesn't feel obvious that people would be better off alone without each other. I don't think they understand how much they rely on each other in terms of the codependence kind of thing.

I guess I'm saying I fear what it would be like to be truly independent. what it would be like for you to be truly independent or for them? I guess all three. Yes, they may be codependent on each other, but so are you on them in a way, right? You cannot be grounded in yourself until you know that they are fine. Yeah. Are you close to your siblings? Yeah.

Do you discuss any of it? Yeah. I talked to my sister about it. it used to be that she didn't want to talk about it. She viewed talking about it as like a betrayal, I think. Everyone amongst you seems to feel that if they expose the challenges between the parents, they are being illegitimate or they are betraying. or they are inflicting guilt.

I think what you're highlighting, if I understand it, well, and your sister too, is that all of you are acutely, acutely aware that your parents in some way compromised on their relationship in order to be for the children. Yeah. And that you owe them. Yeah. Something my dad has been open about was that because of the way he, he grew up, something that he sees as like a big achievement in his life is having a stable

family unit. That's his success. I think he feels that that's what success is. That he did not inflict upon his children, that which had been done to him. Yeah. And I think if there's an expression of negative emotion, of any kind, it sort of undermines that it would shake his worldview and view of the family. As in, I did everything I could to not have my children go through the chaos and the abandonment and the terror that I went through. Yeah. So everything should be fine for them.

How can they have any trouble? experience, any fear, frustration, hurt, sadness, loss, since I made sure that the worst thing that could happen didn't happen. No other feeling should appear after that. Yeah, I think his coping mechanism is that he will pretend things are fine until they are fine. and I think it's this sense that you tell yourself you're content and then you will be content. Like there's nothing crazy dramatic going on in comparison to his experience,

there's stability and that's contentment. To which you say? To which I say I want more for myself. so much more than stability and like continuation. You know, it's not active. It's not curious. It's not love to me. It doesn't feel like a relationship

without the type of communication and understanding like what is that? Where is the relationship? That's how it feels to me. Who did you meet now? Did you meet someone and that's why we're speaking today? Yes, I think so. I met someone who, it felt like a lot of things aligned

and they seemed really open and like emotionally intelligent and etc. But it turned out that they were not wanting any kind of commitment, but it was sort of a very slow filtering down. of understanding that not very transparent but yeah it was the sense that my subconscious had gone for an unavailable person again

or someone who decided that they didn't want something but didn't tell me and it was really frustrating because I felt like I tried really hard to not do that and somehow did it again but my first thought

about what you're telling me is that you think that what you did again was unconsciously go for someone who is not available. I think that what you did again is think that the only person with agency is you and that the other person just is happenstance as if they have nothing to do with this.

Maybe you chose and you actually picked up on the signs that were out there and that's very clear. And that doesn't mean that you obsequitously went and found that your unconscious is in charge leading you into obstructed roads when you think consciously that you finally are actually meeting someone who would be open. And that person may have presented themselves indeed as open and then decided for whatever reason. that that's not what they wanted, but that doesn't mean that that's what you secretly went for. Yeah.

So this is the second or third time that I'm thinking, why does she put everything on her? Why does she think she's the only one who has, holds the wheel here, who has a sense of action and agency? And the other people just kind of don't have any say or will or drive of their own. Yeah, I do have a strong. illusion of control over everything and their responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code ester at OSIA-malibu.com. That's code ester at OSI-A-Malibu.com. Ready to take your investing knowledge to pro-level? This is Fidelity Connects, your daily edge in the markets. deep insights on real-time market topics that may impact your investment portfolio. Listen to Fidelity Connects on Spotify today and power your next move tomorrow. I can understand even why you will shut down. If someone feels that excessive sense of responsibility and control and decision-making,

the only time it stops is when you shut down. You don't know how to stay engaged without taking everything on top. top of you. Yeah, I think that's true. You understand? The minute you enter and you're engaged and you're present, you take everything on your shoulders. Yeah, that's really true.

I've been really struggling recently with seeking support from people in my circles, like as in saying something, if I would like something to change. And I do the whole thing in my head and resolve. it in my head already. Like control the whole situation and resolve it and push it back. Me, myself and I have made the decision. Yeah. It's safer for me to feel I'm in control of everything.

To be in control of everything or to feel that the entire responsibility is with you is not the same as to be independent. Independent doesn't mean alone. It means able to hold on to yourself while also connected to someone else. Yeah. It's a very different definition of independence and it's probably the biggest challenge in relationships

is how we negotiate attachment and authenticity in connection with myself, but also in connection with you. Yeah. So I don't hear your parents being independent. True. And I'm not even sure that I hear you being in that sense independent, which is partly why you freeze. Not why you freeze, but that's what happens when you freeze.

Nobody can come in. All sense of responsibility stops. Bob Marley steps up on stage. What's the sentence from his song that comes first? Could you be loved and be loved? Could you be loved? That's that one, right? Yeah.

I'm wondering if part of the question is, could you be loved? I don't know. I was very much loved but my parents sacrificed themselves for loving me and that makes me feel that I need to be really worth it

I have to be flawless I have to love them back I have to thank them forever because they give everything up for us and especially for me and so whenever I ask can I be loved I think about

How lovable am I? How special am I? How deserving am I? Because in my experience, loving me comes together with not loving each other. What's the next sentence in the song? Don't let them fool you. Don't let them fool you. And then?

Oh, I even tried to school you. How fitting. Yeah. Yeah, wow. Your unconscious pick the perfect song. Yeah, I mean, I have had this affectionism since I was really young. That's also something I worry about, that I don't show. truth that I'm not authentic in general.

Like I try to present a polished version of something or like an acceptable version or when I was younger it would be in the form of like, you know, do it over-exercising and not eating properly and it's come in lots of forms like, you know, trying to be academically constantly the top. It's like having to prove something, isn't it? having to prove that I was worthy of the sacrifice that you made. I will be filling your bucket to the point of not knowing who I am because I'm trying to be what I think you want me to be. Yeah, because I remember every time my dad would come to a show that I'm performing in,

he'd be like, this is what I live for. And I used to hate it. I would hate it because I felt so much pressure. It feels like living vicariously through. The show is your life, not my life. Yeah. Yeah. And that pressure, when it goes acute on overdrive,

it creates the shutdown. It's like a socket system that gets, It's overcharged and then it just blows up. Yeah. And you're young. And this is a developmental task for you. You know, this is the beginning of, I was recruited. But that doesn't mean that I want to keep that title.

Yeah, it just feels like such a paradox because I know that it's completely out of love. you know what I mean yes but when my dad comes to see me sing and he says this is what I live for I will have a part of me that is pleased

that he so enjoys it and that it means so much to him but I'm going to keep another part for me yeah that I don't just sing to give meaning to his life to fill in

the back it for him to justify his choices and his sacrifices. That's there, but there's also another part of it that I think is I really love to do so. Yeah. That it also belongs to me. Yeah. How are you doing? It's hot.

It's really hard. It feels wrong. to see them in any other way, you know. But the older I get, the more I just see people instead of a perfect family. I don't know why I'm going to say what I'm going to say, but I have a feeling that if you said to your dad, it's hard for me to feel that I sing for myself

when I know how much my singing needs to fill you up. I think your father would say, Of course it's for you. I don't think your dad is consciously wanting you to live for him or for him to live entirely through you. Yeah. I think your dad wanted to change the story of his childhood, but I don't think he wanted to co-opt his kids to the extent that you feel trapped.

Yeah, I agree. And that may be worth a conversation with him. it will liberate you. Yeah, yeah. The six-year-old and maybe even the 16-year-old felt that all her accomplishments belong to him or to them. But the 26-year-old is beginning to create a different version of the story for herself. Yeah, I keep joking to everyone.

I'm in my rebellious phase now. Okay. Is there anything else that we need to add before we end today? We only have one hour or so. No, I think it's a lot to think about already. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you too. This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call

recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to, producer at esteraparell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel

is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and a digital music, production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther

Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Ready to take your investing knowledge to pro-level? This is Fidelity Connects, your daily edge in the markets. Get deep insights on real-time market topics that may impact your investment portfolio. Listen to Fidelity Connects on Spotify today and power your next move tomorrow.