Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Can Our College Friendship Survive Adulthood?

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Friendship is a key thread of the social fabric. But what happens when the thread starts to fray? They met in college and have been close for a decade. Now, with long-term partners in the mix, their once-easy bond is under strain. Resentments—some spoken, many not—have started to pile up. Can their friendship adapt to this new phase of life? Or will it unravel? Esther offers them both some hope. Topic: Relationships with Family & Friends For the month of July, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad free version of all the episodes. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know in college we'd show up somewhere like this is my wife like here's how we met we're in love and people would just assume We actually met we were in love and I think we kind of were at the time Mm-hmm, but just not in a romantic. I mean yes in a romantic way not in a sexual way. No None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel Each episode of where should we begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. In this following session, we discuss assault, and I want you to know this before you listen.

The story of a friendship. Two girls from very different backgrounds become confidants. They experience a love story together, a platonic love story, but a love story nevertheless. And they become each other's besties for four years, the entire college duration. Being able to ask for help and receive help, I think is really foundational to our relationship and our friendship and the caretaking that happens between the two of us. They're there for each other.

They're like the foundation for each of them to then go into the world and do their own explorations. And so then the question becomes, how does a friendship like that evolve after college, when their lives changes, when partners enter into this story, or when they start to make choices that take them away from each other? And it becomes a friendship where the expectations

doesn't match the reality anymore. It's true that we have been experiencing different realities of our friendship in the last year, and maybe a little more. But I don't want to just fill in the empty space that you have. I want you to text me and say, hey, I haven't seen you, my boyfriend's out tonight, I would love to watch a movie, do you want to come over?

Right, but I haven't wanted to do that. We used to be everything for each other, and now we barely talk. Is it that other people have replaced us? That we've basically completely grown apart? Was I really that important? I didn't always feel like valued or like fully respected. And because I don't say things in the moment, I will start to weave,

I'll start to crochet a little narrative. And so are we here to mourn our relationship, to say goodbye to each other, to realize that we will have accompanied each other in a most important phase of our life, one that we will never forget? Or do we have a chance to continue to be part of each other's lives? And that is a question that many of us have had to confront.

Megan Rapinoe here. This week on A Touch More, we're talking all about the WNBA All-Star roster with ESPN analyst and former All-Star herself, Chenea Gumake. She also tells us what she wants to see from the CBA negotiations. Plus, I'm sharing some of the record-breaking updates from the Euros in Switzerland. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More, wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Using AI chatbots is pretty easy. Knowing how to feel about them, that's more complicated. I don't think that biologically we're necessarily equipped to be emotionally handling this type

of relationship with something that's not human. Our AI companions. That's this week on Explain It to Me. New episodes every Sunday, wherever you get your podcasts. Can I suggest something? Yeah. It'll be okay? How about I meet the people Can I suggest something? Yeah. It'll be okay?

How about I meet the people before I meet the problem? Because often people come here because there's a situation, problem or not, but there's a situation they want to work through, and there's something about a problem that is constricting. You kind of narrow around the problem when in fact you're much broader and bigger than that as people and so is probably your relationship. And I would love to just meet you. Meet you, hear about your origin story. I understood something's happened. It's not generally that

complicated in friendship to think what are the things that can go wrong. Tell me about if I met you separately, as is likely sometimes to happen, and I sat on the plane next to you and then I sit on the plane next to you. Who am I meeting? Who, you know, tell me a bit. I moved to the United States when I was six. I was born in Buenos Aires. No accent. No accent, no.

I was very young. I would say my brother, who is nine, has slightly more of an accent, but only if you know. My dad was a pilot for his whole career, so he was away a lot, and my mom was an architect before she had us and then stayed home with us, especially after we moved because my dad would be away and like we didn't have the whole sort of community that we had back in Buenos Aires. Yeah, I think even though it was such a like small portion of my life that I lived there, my

parents are very much from there and all my family is from there. We don't have American family. We're all Argentine. So I think it has played a significant cultural role. Say one more line about that. I was raised by Argentine people. But I am an American girl or like that's how I see myself.

And when you say that, I'm raised by Argentine people and that means or that looks like? Very sort of emotional, openly, at least in my experience of my Argentine people. Not much beating around the bush, like kind of just saying things directly. I think that they had a different level of sensitivity to certain issues than perhaps some American parents would have. Like my brother and I were diagnosed with anxiety much, much later in life, even though I think it was pretty prominent when we were kids. Not because my parents don't like believe in it. I think they just are like, I don't know, I think it was pretty prominent when we were kids. Not because my parents don't believe in it, I think they just are like, I don't know,

I think for a while they thought it was maybe a construction or like... Part of life. Yeah, because I look at them and my dad is one of the most anxious people I've ever met. How old are you? I'm 27. Both of you?

Yes. This image? Yeah. What of this Argentinian culture lives in you? Well, you say they're the Argentinians and I'm the American girl. Is that such a flat statement? No. No.

I think that looking the way I look, which is white, brunette, blue eyes, you know, and my name doesn't really ring Hispanic in any way. I think sometimes it's important for me to know that I'm not just from Connecticut because then I feel very like reduced to whatever someone thinks about Connecticut. I speak Spanish with my family. That's my first language. And there's definitely a version of me that is Argentine, but I don't get to access her very much because I mostly spend my time here. Right. But you are also saying different parts of me come to the front in each language and

in each country. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. Yeah, so grew up in suburban Connecticut, went to college in Canada, and met Emily there. So you both were actually kind of what they call foreign students. Yes. Yeah. I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and both of my parents also grew up in that area.

My dad and his brother and all my cousins all went to the same high school that I went to, and it was a pretty competitive and highly ranked public school, and I really poured myself into academics in part because I liked the ideas and the knowledge and the conversations and also because school is a comforting structure of progress and achievement and feedback. And because you were bored. And because I was bored. You didn't like living there. I didn't like living there. I didn't like living in the suburbs.

Had friends, but certainly wasn't thriving socially. I knew that high school wasn't gonna be my favorite part of life, and really wanted to flee to like go elsewhere. Yeah. Wanted to go for college and study abroad but my parents were like please stay on this continent so I went to Montreal which was only an eight-hour drive from home but it really satisfied my craving for being an international student, being around other international students, being in a city, living independently.

Are you the first one of the generations to leave? Yeah, both of my parents went to college, but both stayed local. I think my leaving my hometown was feeding that urge and that desire for distance and change and diversity in a way that I did not have growing up in very wealthy white suburbs. And then in our freshman year dorm on our floor there were people from maybe seven or eight different countries. Yeah. And French, Canadian, American. Exactly. And I loved it. I felt stimulated. I felt stimulated. I felt... Stimulated. I felt stimulated. I felt challenged and stretched without being competitive.

Is it because in high school you somewhat walked around with the idea of, I'm not like you. I have other aspirations. I want more. I want to expand. I'm not like you. I have other aspirations. I want more. I want to expand. I'm curious. Whereas when you arrive to college, you watch and see all these people from all these different parts of the world and you say, my people, I am like you. You too are the seekers.

You too are the travelers. You too wanted more. And therefore, there's less of a need to say, I'm better, I'm different. I want something else than all of you. I want something else than all of you. Well, strangely, I wouldn't put myself in that bucket. I got to school and all that freedom that you loved and craved, I was so terrified and overwhelmed by.

And I think that's why we became... We had very different experiences in our first year and so knew each other, technically lived on the same floor. Never really spoke. We became close because we both decided to live with our mutual friend and the three of us then were going to look for an apartment and the first time you and I ever hung out one-on-one

was to tour apartments together. So it really wasn't until living together that we became friends and developed our. And like a little into apartments together. So it really wasn't until living together that we became friends and developed our... And like a little into living together. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that first month being like, who is this girl? I was like, who is this girl?

She doesn't like me and our third roommate is a nightmare and I have to move out and like, what did I do? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then... The night. Oh, The night. The night. Yeah. Emily had something happen while I was back home.

I was sleeping and she was out with her friends and came home and woke me up and she was like weeping. She had gotten really triggered by something that a friend had said and I got up out of bed. It was like probably two in the morning. And you had your first friendship interaction. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting retelling this story. So the thing that happened is the summer after my first year we had moved into our apartment and I was walking home one night after going out with friends. It was warm

and about a block and a half from our apartment, a man had been following me and jumped me and started beating me. And I hadn't known he was following me and I didn't know who he was and I didn't really know what was happening. And some stranger happened to be walking by and sort of shoot him off and grab my hand and we ran to my apartment and called the police. And you know, part of the story is that this man happened to call the police on himself after it happened. He is on the spectrum and had been at a strip club or something and was upset that he never got women and so went out looking and I just happened to walk by. And so, referring to this

night, I had been out at a party and something about someone leaving felt like they shouldn't be walking home alone. It triggered that like there's danger and I can't control it feeling for me and I came home and was really tearful and couldn't stop crying and knew I needed help and so woke you up and you were like here here's what we're going to do. You're going to smoke some weed. We're going to watch TV. We're going to hang out and then you're going to go to bed and having someone. Take care of the situation.

Being able to ask for help and receive that kind of help, I think is really foundational to our relationship and our friendship and the caretaking that happens between the two of us. Very beautiful. And I'm thinking also about how, just before you talked about how much you value structure. And she basically offered you structure, clarity and calmness.

Yeah. Which is probably one of the most important things to do in a moment of crisis. Yeah. Yeah. I understood immediately that this was a friendship on standby. And that it wasn't clear if it was going to have a second wind or if it was going to continue to wither. But I also wanted to learn about the friendship first, before I would listen about the

friendship crisis. And I meet two women and they could have just been roommates but then there is as they say together in unison that night. The night that kind of sealed the friendship. Those of us who have met that person and who have had that experience, it's unique and it is a kind of a coup de foudre of falling in love instantly. And they have a complementarity. It's not just one taking care of the other. In fact, they each have their strengths, they each lift the other. They're the safe haven that you come home to in the evening and you go back out into the world. We'll be back with a session right after this.

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may apply. I wouldn't say that the caregiving is like all in one direction. I think like part of what we would like joke about when we became friends, because we became like after that night like we were up together every night like talking, we were having dinner together, we were watching shows together, we basically started dating. but not in a romantic, I mean, yes, in a romantic way, not in a sexual way. Like we never like slept together and that wasn't an element of our relationship,

but very quickly we were like, all right, so you're like, and I think being in a different country was part of that, right? Like you are my person, like you're my emergency contact, you are my roommate, you are my built in plus one date to whatever, you are my sounding board, but like both ways. And I think like, I struggled with like some depression and feeling really lonely and isolated and that manifested in like not going to school a lot, which I don't

know if my parents know about that, but I often didn't go to school in my first year and really, really interesting., you just got closer to the mic as you started- Sorry, mom and dad. Well, I'm addressing them. That one's for them. I learned a lot at school and it wasn't all in school. Yes.

That's what I'll say. Emily was someone who was structured, did her readings. I, on the other, always went to class. Always went to class, knew how to get things done. And I was like, hey, come and learn how to smoke out of this bong. And I'm going to make you some cookies, and we're going to watch TV.

And I think that at the time, that's what we both needed. We needed someone else to help us with the thing we weren't so good at. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then when you ended college, you stayed in touch?

You... Well, this is sort of where the trouble begins because I begin to have a lot of feelings and can't figure out how to share them. And so then I like hold onto them. And I would say the end of college we experienced very differently. And I was very angry with her. And I did say the end of college, we experienced very differently. And I was very angry with her.

And I did not know. I had made other friends. Meaning that she continues to make you cookies and to roll the bong and to... Kind of. I mean, I was also busier. I mean, it's that invisible? Well, to the same extent that we had always had different interests and different friend groups and different hobbies and activities, we both became more involved in our separate worlds.

And so I didn't necessarily notice your distance as being about me so much as you were busy with your own things and I was busy with my own things. And so we graduated, we moved out, you know, we left Montreal, which was heartbreaking for me at least. I was happy to leave. I also think I should mention, and I don't actually think that this was so crucial,

but Emily did have a boyfriend that final year, which we had not had before, either of us. That hadn't been part of the dynamic. Yeah. So I think a lot of the like quiet, like chilling of like smoking or watching TV or whatever, you were now doing some rocks. With other people, yeah. Yeah.

So I ended up moving to Chicago and I moved at the same time as a gaggle of Olivia's best friends from high school also moved. And so I'd met some of these people through you and they quickly became my community in Chicago. And you look from afar in New York where it's really expensive and you don't have a lot of friends or community and you're saying, wait, all my friends are hanging out without me. So you come and move to Chicago

and move in with me. So that's my, I guess, two year arc. And you move in together in Chicago and you're... With a third roommate. With a third roommate. But the main idea is you reestablish your domestic life. Yes. And at this point, I have a new boyfriend. And you arrive. Like my boyfriend and I broke up in the car an hour outside of Chicago.

So I was like fresh. Fresh. Fresh. Off a breakup. Yeah. It's interesting, right? This friendship, I mean, this is probably true for many, right? It's the two of us,

the three of us, the four of us, us with the gang, me with your gang, me looking at you with my gang. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the number of different constellations here, and every time it changes the dynamic. Oh, and it keeps going. That keeps happening. The plot thickens, you're going to tell me. Oh, and it keeps, that keeps happening. The platicans you're gonna tell me, okay, have more years. Well, so those two years,

I sort of saw a little bit differently. I graduated college and I was really mad at you. The most like salient of which. For what? I started to feel the inklings of something that I think I still feel to this day and is probably the main thing I want to feel the inklings of something that I think I still feel to this day and is probably the main thing I want to talk to you about because it's the thing I've never been able

to talk to you about. I didn't always feel valued or fully respected. And again, because I don't say things in the moment, I will start to take little pieces and I start to weave weave, you know, start to crochet a little narrative for myself with all these different like small events, little thing you said, other tiny thing you didn't do or, you know, whatever. Beading. Yeah.

Taking all the beads. Right. So at the end of college, you graduate the day before me and leave with your family. And that night I had a big party at our apartment with a bunch of our friends. We stayed up super late, got super drunk. And the next day I was like very hungover and had to move out of this apartment

and she was already gone. And when my parents got there and I was like throwing up, they were like, okay, yes, we have to do all of this. And as they like started doing it, I was like, oh, there's actually so much to be done. It was two years of an apartment that then my hung over us and my parents had to clean up. And that felt very frustrating.

That felt like I was not valued, right? We didn't do that together. We didn't plan ahead of time, but it was graduation, so whatever. We then go on a trip to Argentina. Together. Together. And at the time I was feeling mad and frustrated

that the first time I was bringing someone to this place that is so personal to me, I was not excited to do so at the time. We end up going on, honestly, a really cool trip that we both remember fondly. And then from my recollection, we didn't really talk after that trip. You had your New York era, I had my Chicago era, you were dating this guy who... Sucked. Well existed in this completely separate world for me. But I just want to go back

to something because they were striking the events and then they're striking the relationship. And they don't seem to necessarily always coincide for both of you. What happened to the feelings? They're just a cue. They may have just numb themselves because ofbed themselves. Yes because of the distance I mean I can tell you what happened to the feelings. Yeah, I Had worked myself up so much and I basically decided that I could either

Confront her and tell her about all of these feelings or I could let it go. Those were the only options I couldn't stay as upset as I was and also not say anything. In my head, I was like, so many of these problems came from like us living together and like sort of taking each other for granted. It's like, I don't foresee that happening again. So I'm just going to let them go. And I really thought that I had let them go until I started feeling similar things when we started living together again. And I would say it was good for like a little while. I can't stop noticing the attention to details, layer upon layer, shift upon shift. Every detail matters. It's a very careful tending to the relationship, to the closeness, the distance, the coming

toward, the moving away from, the sharing, the keeping to oneself, the expressing the feelings, the trying to distance oneself from one's own feelings because how to be close to you if I feel all of this? So, I either stay with my feelings and I separate from you or I stay close to you if I feel all of this? So I either stay with my feelings and I separate from you, or I stay close to you and I separate from my feelings. I think there was a little bit of contextual distance in that you were fresh off of a breakup and I was fresh into

a new relationship. And so we were both aware that like that's different than it had been in the past. Well, and I was like, Emily has like obligations and you know, priorities, basically. If she has another partner. Right. Exactly. But at the time I was like, it's fine. Like Emily's got another partner. I'm single. Like I can kind of do whatever. I started like, it's fine. Like, Emmy's got another partner. I'm single. Like, I can kind of do whatever. I started like dating everyone with a pulse.

And it felt fine. And I think the rub started to come when like, I pulled away from my expectations of you because you had obligations with someone else. But I think sometimes I felt like you still had those expectations of me and that didn't feel fair because just because I didn't have my own partner to prioritize, I was like, I'm not gonna prioritize you

if you are prioritizing someone else. That doesn't feel fair. And so I was pouring all my time and energy into like- So now we enter into the triangle dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. So we need to define friendship. It's one of the things. What is friendship that isn't we live together,

we are partners, we each have our own lives, but we anchor each other in the way that you described so beautifully before. And so now you are four. Now we are four. Now you're two partners, right? And I would say like, you don't really know my partner and I don't like super know your partner. Like I know him more because he's been around longer,

but yeah, I don't know, maybe it was a fantasy. And you never meet alone again. Who, us? Yes, do you, I mean, never. It's a form of speech. Well. But you tend to not meet the two of you. You meet primarily with others. I would say that's the case.

You're part of the same circle, but you don't have that little loop around the two of you anymore. I would say so. Well, I think it wasn't until we moved to Chicago that you were like, so I've secretly been very angry at you for the last two years. And I said, news to me. Right, right. Right, that's fair to say.

Yes, I felt mad and I felt like in the time that we had lived together, there had been a time where we were each other's partners and everything was shared, good or bad. And then suddenly there was this other person that you would share all the good stuff with. And because you hadn't been dating that long, you weren't sharing all the bad stuff. And so you would bring that to me. And I felt taken advantage of because I was like, I don't get her in a good mood. I don't get her excited to go out. I don't get her in a good mood. I don't get her excited to go out.

I don't get her like wanting to do something. I get her like after work whenever you're in a bad mood and like don't wanna see your boyfriend. Like that's what I would get. Meaning the leftovers? Right, right. I think my memory of the feelings that you brought up I think my memory of the feelings that you brought up were you saying, I've been harboring so much anger and resentment towards you,

and now I have to talk about it. And feeling a little like, thanks for telling me now. But also, I can't really do anything about those last few years, and it has planted this seed of worry that you are secretly harboring a lot of anger and resentment towards me and not naming it, which has persisted. Well, but then I would ask you something, which is that you know that I need, hey, are you okay?

You seem weird. What's up? Things aren't, you know, just as an opening, right? Like I struggle to just like, hey, I have something that I wanted to, you know, like, and and so then I start to get frustrated when I'm like, clearly you know that I might be harboring resentments, and so why wouldn't you just ask me? For that very reason. Well, yeah, I think...

But if you ask like, hey, are you mad at me? I would have just been like, yeah, actually this thing made me mad. Versus then like a year and a half goes by and I'm like, Emily must know that I'm upset and the things just keep stacking and she doesn't say anything to me. So they talk about resentment, they talk about anger. There's a lot of feelings here mixed in, jealousy.

And there is the, you broke up with me. And there is the, I'm upset with you and it's hard for me to tell you you should notice that and you should be the one to help me say what I have to say by reaching out to me and now it becomes if you would help me if you were different then I could do what I want And so slowly we identified our stalemate. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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and where those lines blur. And throughout it all, one question becomes impossible to ignore. What makes a connection real? You can listen and follow Flesh and Code at the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcast. And you can binge all episodes early and ad free by joining Wandery Plus. President Trump met with the leaders of five African nations

at the White House yesterday. One oops got all the attention when Trump paid Liberia's president a compliment. — Well, thank you. You have such good English. Such beautiful. Where did you learn to speak so beautifully? — English is Liberia's official language. — Were you educated where? — Yes, sir. — In Liberia? — Yes, sir.

— Well, that's very interesting. — Anyway, you know what happened behind closed doors right before that meeting? President Trump pushed those African leaders to accept people who are being deported from the U.S. That's according to a Wall Street Journal exclusive. In fact, it's trying all kinds of ideas to increase the pace of deportations. And we're going to tell you about some of them on Today Explained. Today Explained is in your feeds every weekday.

Well, there are two places that we could go. One I think is we deal with conflict and emotions very differently, in part due to each of our families. Definitely. Where, if you were acting some type of way, your dad would bust into your room and yell at you to tell him what's going on. Yes. Whereas my family gives space, backup, no intrusion. If she needs something, she'll let us know.

Exactly. But we're also still sort of hovering around the 2022 conflict, and part of the prompt of us being here is the distance that's persisted over the last year or so. And I'll add that it's not that I knew you were mad about something and wasn't coming to ask you what's wrong. It's more that I was experiencing when we would hang out, you would mostly talk about yourself. That's so funny, because I felt exactly the same about you. No. Yes.

I'm just watching and thinking, you've just entered into an inner circle. We're getting closer. You took your time, you told the story, and now we're in the present. And I just watched you, and I just thought to myself, okay, now it's starting. We've arrived. Sorry it took so long. No, now it's starting. Mm-hmm. We've arrived.

Sorry it took so long. No. No. You needed to meet the people. Yeah. And now we've arrived at the conflict. And I think you needed it too. Yeah. Because an hour is shorter than two years.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, when a romantic relationship doesn't serve you anymore, you get rid of it because for most people, you can only have one. But a friendship, like you don you anymore, you get rid of it because for most people, you can only have one. But a friendship, like you don't need, first of all, you don't need any,

and second of all, you can have as many as you want. And so, I think some friendship sort of skeptics might be like, well, so why are you guys still friends? Or like, why are you trying to be friends? And it's like, in telling you the story, I'm getting emotional thinking about everything we've been through. And I've just never had friendship the way I did with Emily and it makes me so sad that my

boyfriend and like probably the love of my life like doesn't know that and doesn't know you and doesn't know us as friends really he doesn't Now that we've arrived. I'm very curious to know what your question was to Astaire for the podcast. Like, what did you write in? I wrote that I felt like we had very different experiences and realities about our friendship, that we experienced it very differently and that there was a huge gap and I didn't know how to bridge the gap.

I really appreciate that question prompt. It's true that we have been experiencing different realities of our friendship in the last year and maybe a little more but We're very clear on our origin story in part because we've told this story to a lot of people Well, cuz we used to be like this is my wife, you know in college we'd show up somewhere I'd be like this is my wife like here's how we met we're in love and people would just assume We actually met we were in love and I think we just assume we actually met, we were in love. And I think we kind of were at the time, but just not in a sort of typical way.

But I think that pointing to our really different experiences of the current reality of our friendship, something that really caught me when you reached out to tell me that you had written into this podcast was you saying I've been really emotional about this for a long time and thinking about it and journaling about it and talking to my boyfriend and my therapist and our friends about it. Mostly my parents. I tried not to talk to her friends about it. Okay, but your people. And I think this is sort of getting to the current triangulation,

which is you, me, and everyone else. I felt so protective of our primary partnership with each other because I hadn't had a long-term committed relationship before you because you were the most meaningful relationship in my life. And I really resented the idea of anyone finding a partner and then it taking precedent over this really rich partnership that we had built and felt very defensive of the fact that relationships can be multiple and overlapping and you don't have to get everything from one relationship etc. But it feels like you have been talking to everyone else about what you are feeling and how you are perceiving this

before talking to me. And to find out that you had been angry and frustrated, but really charged and emotional about it, and telling our friends, that felt like more of the betrayal. Yeah, I mean, and obviously it's like something that I know that I do and am trying better. I guess I just felt so, our partnership felt dissolved, to be honest.

See, you emphasize loss, and you emphasize betrayal. I didn't matter to you anymore. You had replaced me. Here came the boyfriend. I was no longer your priority. And there's grief and there's loss. You know, somebody once said, every person's autobiography is another person's betrayal You talk about me, but when you talk about me that means you talk about

Things that I may not have chosen to say and You basically Bring everybody else into your orbit in a way that makes me feel like, how do you say, I'm grist for the mill? It makes me feel not so much replaced, but more like left out. But you land in the same spot.

She feels left out, you feel left out. The trajectory that brings you there is different. But you land up in, I'm not important enough for you to come to me. And she basically has her version of I'm not important enough for you to come to me. On different things. And this is the transition. How do we go from partner to friends when we have new partners?

Well, I think that... And when you respond, if you allow me, you understand it, but then you were just about to justify it. But I did it because. It's okay, you don't need to justify it. But I did it because. It's okay, you don't need to justify it. You did it. I did it, yeah.

You both have good reasons for what you do, but it's not the good reasons that are gonna bring you closer. What's gonna help you get closer is to understand the effect that your good reasons have on the other person. And then, how much you care about it. Because, you know, the thing about friendship is it's all free given.

It's not something you can impose. Well, to be honest, I think at times I felt imposed upon. And that's kind of the crux of like where my distance became really intentional. I started to feel like you would ask these things of me that were like partner level asks, big asks. And again, like not because friendship needs to be 100% perfectly reciprocal, but like if we haven't talked in a while,

we haven't hung out in a while and you ask me a big favor, and I'm terrible, I don't know how to say no, right? Like I will always say yes and then I'll feel resentful afterwards for doing it and not feeling like properly valued. But the thing is interesting that you're highlighting is that the big things I want to do for you, but they take place in the context of all the little things. If we don't hang, check in, send messages, do pulse checks, then when you come with the big thing,

makes me feel like I'm being taken advantage of. If we do all the little things and then you come with the big thing, then I feel like I'm really important to you and I matter. It's a very interesting reinterpretation. It's like, if we have all the little funds, then when you come with the big question, then I feel almost honored that you rely on me and that I'm your emergency number.

When I feel like I have like agency to say yes or no, which I don't often do, I often feel like I'm not good at saying no. Which is... My problem. Absolutely. It is your responsibility to say no, right? Which is... My problem. Absolutely. It is your responsibility to say no, wouldn't it? Sure, but like, okay. I have like a very specific example in mind.

A year ago you asked me to drive to Springfield with you. Yes. You called me on the phone. I answered the phone. You said, are you working on Monday? And I was unemployed at the time, so I said, no, I'm not working on Monday. And then you said, would you drive to Springfield with me, like a three and a half hour drive?

And I did not want to. I was like, that sounds like a long trip. You're gonna get me at 6 a.m. I was like, ugh. But we're on the phone. I already told you I'm not working. What am I gonna say? I don't want to.

That feels rude. So I say yes and we we go, and like, you bring me breakfast, and it was great, and then we get back to the city, and you're like, I wanna go to therapy in person. Can I drop you off at the bus? And I was like, you picked me up at my house at 6 a.m. for me to do this like giant favor for you,

and you're like, you're not gonna drive me home? And so you like drop me off at the bus. Bus never came. So I ended up biking the five miles home. And then I got home and I was like furious. And then you didn't text me like, hey, sorry that was a slog. Like hope you got home okay.

I get a text from you two days later that's like, these two people we went to college with broke up. And I'm like, what am I to you? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Like I didn't even just feel like thanked, like bro, I know that was so annoying. And in my head I was like,

why can't she just do therapy from her house? She lives four blocks from me. And if we had the type of dynamic where I felt like I could just be like, no, drive me home. Yeah. But I didn't feel that way. You were like, is it cool if I do this? And I'm just like, yeah, I guess. And again, that's on me. Like I should speak up, but I don't always feel like I can.

And to your point, if we had had that rapport, it wouldn't have felt like such a pressured yes. Right. And you might have felt like you had more of a leg to stand on to be like, no, bitch, drive me off. Totally. I think in different years, I would have been like, absolutely not. What the fuck are you talking about?

Like, drive me home. Yeah. But I just was like, I didn't feel comfortable around you, frankly. And I was feeling used. and I just was like, I kind of need this to end. And like I biked home on Fullerton five miles, like fucking furious and sweating. And I got up at 6 a.m. I was like,

are you, I was like, is this a fucking joke? Yeah. And I, this is the first time you're telling her this? Yes. I think I feel in part mortified and embarrassed for treating you that way. That's not how I want to behave and that's not how I want you to feel. And I think there's also a little part of me that's like if you feel something it's your responsibility to say so. Like, I can't be always guessing

and trying to read between the lines and interpret your silence as being mad that I didn't text you a follow-up. Like, I, no. Wrong? Yeah. No wrong, no wrong. But I know you're keen to think about whose responsibility is it, but you know enough

to that if somebody spends their day driving with you, you don't need a school or a degree to tell you, you know, the nice thing to do is to send a name message afterwards. You don't even have to send a card anymore. It's in the palm of your hand to just say much appreciated or something that acknowledges. So that's not for her to tell you to do. This is the product of distance. This is more about the emotional distance than about accountability and responsibility.

I think. So it's not why as much as how. How have things unfolded that I would be in a situation where the things that naturally come to me don't? Anyone who you pick up at 6 a.m., it's kind of understood you probably will drop them off. Or you'll check afterwards if they got home okay, given that you dropped them at the bus stop.

To then go to say, no, no, this is for you to tell. It's less about the telling. It's more there's a detachment that allows these thoughts not to be thread together. When you have friends, when you start to have a situation where you're reluctant to see your friend because you're beginning to think about what's going to come up this time, what's the thing we haven't addressed or what's the resentment that's been lingering or what fuck up will I be exposed with this time, then you start to not want to see the friend. You look forward to seeing a friend because it's going to be nice, fun, interesting, deep,

mischievous, whatever, but not to belabor wrongdoings and criticisms and all of this. So I'm watching this because I think if you do that, you may get it all out, but I'm not sure you will want to spend time together. It's not inviting. So I'm thinking, what's the right dosage here of this? I think you naming the trip to Springfield is a good example of a grievance that is symptomatic of a larger dynamic. I think a thing that I sometimes feel is wanting you to ask the favor of me and not anyone, like texting in the group chat, hey, does anyone want to watch a movie tonight? My boyfriend's busy.

I don't want to just fill in the empty space that you have. I want you to text me and say, hey, I haven't seen you. My boyfriend's out tonight. I would love to watch a movie. Do you want to come over? Right. But I haven't wanted to do that. Yes. But I'm saying that my experience of you being self-centered is that,

is you not asking me to do anything, not asking me about myself, and then it feels like expecting someone to come in and fill a need for you. And I want you to ask me to be burdened. I want you to ask me to drive to Springfield with you. Right. But I don't because then I'm like, I'm always going to ask for something in return.

Like I'm going to have to, you know, do another drive to Springfield. But it's a different request. What she wants is for you to make her feel that she's important to you. It's not a burden piece here. This is more like you're seeking her out. It feels very loaded, right? It feels very loaded and so it's not chill. And we love to chill and that's like been so much

of our relationship is like relaxing and like unwinding and. Well, I'll add that my experience of us hanging out hasn't felt super loaded. I did not know all of the emotional baggage that was happening for you around the trip to Springfield and how much weight and meaning there was in it. And I understand that that's part of the issue.

But it's hard for me to know how sensitive it is. But then why don't you ask? No, each of you is saying to the other, if you did it differently, things would be easier. I know. You know. But I'm just saying she knows me. Yes, and you did it differently, things would be easier. I know. You know. But I'm just saying she knows me. Yes, and you know her, and you have a 10 year friendship,

and it could just be the next day after she drops you, you just say, listen, yesterday was a real bitch, and I had that out bike and this and that, and that wasn't cool. That's it. Yeah. You have to kind of shorten the distance between action and reaction. That's on your part have to kind of shorten the distance between action and reaction.

That's on your part. But the other piece is when she says, you know, invite me to chill, is of the same vein as you're putting it out in the cosmos. You're checking to see if she's offering herself. If she doesn't offer herself, you think you're no longer on her priority list. But in the same way that you requested, she wasn't put on your priority list.

It was more like a I'm free tonight, who's available. And the specialness becomes questioned by each of you. This is the crochet of the friendship too. It's like little things like this. Di di di di di di di di. And suddenly there's a kind of a cloud. So when she says, call me, I wouldn't explain why you don't call her.

I would say, I'm glad to know you want that because I want that too. End of conversation. It's like the processing, but then there's a limit to the processing. Because if you become too much of a processing relationship, it doesn't feel chill. And I think your suggestion about calling me to go and do things, you need more of that. Ask me to borrow my car. Ask to borrow the dog.

I mean, yeah. Both of you though. No, I know. Something I said to her was that I felt like we were sort of mismatched in the expectations of each other in our actual level of current closeness. I don't want to reach out to you to borrow your car because I'm like, that's weird. If I'm not hanging out with Emily and then I'm like, let me borrow your car, that feels

transactional. That's why I'm saying you need those hangouts. You need those small things that you enjoy doing together. Whatever the things are, it doesn't have to be small. But you need to do the stuff that gives the cushion. Right. The only times I end up seeing you is when we need something from each other. Have you ever met the four of you?

Us and our boyfriends? Like maybe once. Okay, so you need twos, you need fours, because your group at this point, your group of friends is in a way keeping you together without you being really together. So in a way it's kind of deflecting. The corrective is more things to two of you. That you have a huge repertoire of things that you can do together.

The four of you for that matter. Because if you're going to continue this at some point, if it's not two and if it's not four, it won't sustain. And it's okay to have had an incredible friendship in college that didn't sustain. People will tell you stories upon stories of how things just went in different directions and dissolved gradually. But if you want it, then it's about creating these new configurations. Yeah.

I think that something I said to you when I talked about coming on this thing is this like lazy closeness where you sort of stop performing for the other person. Obviously when you're like attracted to someone you meet them out right and they're like either trying to impress you or they're like on their best behavior or they're like telling you all their best stories and like after a while they stop doing that because they're comfortable with you. And so we're not always our best selves with each other. And I suggested, I was like, I want to feel like we are just new friends.

Because I don't know what music you listen to. Like I don't know what shows you're watching. Like I don't know like really small like regular things about you It's like you have the decision to make will we remain childhood friends? it's the friends you meet but they're frozen in time and They didn't really evolve with you then you have the ones who travel with you and they are People who are charting the territory with you. They're creating the new experiences.

And then you have the circumstantial ones, the ones who you met because you have kids at the same time or you are in the same school, but it's circumstantial. When that phase ends, so does the relationship. And the ones that you kind of of say they've been in my life 20 30 40 years That's the ones that you create a combination of all of this Even if you don't have the same circumstances you manage to remain updated And it's beyond what series are you watching it's kind of who are you now?

Completely and that's what I said to you. I was like, I don't think you know who I am right now. Yeah, well, we're in our boyfriend era. I know. Nay, our live with partner era. I know. And I think I have a lot of grief and resentment that because I'm in a partnership, I'm not single. And because you're in a partnership, I'm not single. Right. And because you're in a partnership, you're not single.

And so we're not each other's primary anchor partners. It's time for me to suggest something concrete that they can do together. And I'm thinking about my card game, Where Should We Begin? The game of stories, and how people have told me that they play the game by picking one card every day and telling a story about that card.

And how much it has elicited so many untold stories, so many reinterpretations of the other person, which they thought they knew, but then discover so many new things about. But also, especially how it's energizing, it's playful. It doesn't process the problems. It generates new selves in the relationship. So, every day, you flip a card, you send it, and you tell a story and find a way to bring each other back into your lives today.

But not only by talking about the things that you're upset about, but by actually creating an energy that makes you want to connect to each other. You won't stay friends by talking about what makes you upset. It doesn't work this way. It's important to do, but it's not what keeps the friendship alive. that as we rebuild and refresh our relationship, that we can invite our partners into this new family system, that there's this new important person in your life

who I get to meet and become friends with as well. Yeah. Yeah, I would love for you to know him. It's crazy, we live four blocks from each other. And what if you took a walk together? You know, a few times a week, half an hour, and you walked a dog. We love dogs. I mean, it's that kind of ritual, fun, simple.

And we found that in group dynamics, but we've lost that on a one-to-one basis. But you're right. I mean, we do have like tons of things. I was just like, we should go antiquing. Like, we love antiquing, and we live in the Midwest. I started knitting. She didn't even tell me! I've been knitting, but I'm stuck because I fucked it up and I don't know how to fix it. And I'll help you. Yeah. And you haven't know how to fix it. And I'll help you. Yeah.

And you haven't seen my new beading. I haven't beaded. Literally. Alright, that's the energy you're gonna leave with. Mm-hmm. We're not gonna add anything. Because you'll have a lot of things to discover. What else don't you know about me that has happened in those last few years? I love you, buddy. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller,

and Jack Saul.