Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Can Our Love Survive Our Differences?

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

They met dancing, and it was love at first sight. But only after they began dating did they realize the vast differences between them: differences in their core values, religious beliefs, political affiliations, sexual identities, and immigration statuses. And yet, they love each other deeply and hope to start a family together. He comes to Esther wondering how to raise children with someone who holds such different values from him and his family. Her question is deeper: by loving him, is she betraying herself? Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. If you get mad every time you pick up your phone and start scrolling, it's not just you. Rage Babe is kind of the currency or the power that's behind a lot of the content we might see. This week on Explain It to Me from Vox, why the internet is pissing you off on purpose.

New episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. When we talk about differences in relationships, We sometimes talk about different childhoods, different backgrounds, different value systems as it pertains to family or money or work. This couple brings a very different list of differences. I'm conservative. She's liberal. I'm a Christian. I believe in God. She's more of an agnostic. She believes in the sacredness of man. She's by. I'm not by. I don't even know what that even is. When I was growing up, that wasn't like a thing. She's into saving the same. the world and environmental stuff and being a vegetarian she's very hippie I'm not hippie I'm

any of that stuff I eat balanced meals climate change is just something that happens she does all the protest stuff like a no king's day and all that jazz she doesn't know all that stuff I'm like I don't have the luxury to protest I got bills to pay at least since the election I've been directly affected by a lot of things that have happened a lot of the people that I love and care about, have been chemically affected by a lot of things that this administration has brought with it. I'm finding

it very, very hard to be in a relationship with someone who supports that, who chose this. He voted Trump. She didn't. He's a devout Christian. She isn't. He has never had a meal without meat. She's a

vegetarian. And the list goes on and on. On the one hand, he says, I can't think of anyone else being the mother of my children. On the other end, he says, but with all the values and the beliefs that she has, I worry about what that would actually mean for my children. I'd love to have a family with her and get married and do the whole nine yards.

And I do sometimes worry about, you know, how much my children are going to be made foreign to me because of her views. I've had a lot of conversations with myself about, like, what am I doing here? And, like, how do we make this move forward? The question is, can this work? On the one hand, she says he's the man who's been there for me, with me, through all kinds of tribulations. On the other end, she thinks,

how much am I betraying myself by being with someone who believes in everything I stand against? All of that doesn't take away from the deep love that exists between them. But what is the field where that lives? love can exist when it stands in opposition to so many of their other values. And which are the values that guide us in our decisions for commitment and love? So how did it happen? What led you to say, I want this conversation?

So I applied, I think, I may be in her. February or March, something like that. I was feeling that we were experiencing almost two different relationships where I was really affected a lot by a lot of the geopolitical stuff that's going on. And the stakes felt really high for me in this relationship. I care about him a lot. I care about our relationship a lot. I think that we are aligned on a lot of things and then very misaligned on a lot of things. I think we have a similar understanding of family. I think that we come for very different backgrounds, but I think our family structure is actually

quite similar and what we want in terms of family going forward is also well aligned. Does that cover that well enough? I don't know. Okay. We'll find out. She tends to, she's obviously extremely, extremely. be smart woman and she's also very diplomatic and you're going to have to spend a lot of time to get things the pinpoint what it is we're discussing because some of the when these topics have

come up it's been the same overarching nebulous umbrella of terms that provide a panacea that in which she doesn't commit to what the issue is so when you were saying she's like oh it's a high stakes and we've got you a political issues I don't know what that means either and so you're going to have to force her to speak she doesn't like to communicate we're opposite I like spotlight She does not. I like to talk and run my mouth. She does not. She made it happen for us to be here.

Yeah. So there is a motivation and there is maybe even an urgency. So is it okay that I ask for precision? Absolutely. She answers any questions that are asked, but you have to know what to ask in order to get specificity to the topic that's being discussed at time. I've been with her long enough and she had coached me at the inception of our relationship. that was a challenge that had plagued her

through past relationships and it's something that she needs to break. And so... Can I suggest one thing? Take a breath. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no.

He's a very fast speaker. Yeah, I'm Latin descent. My mom's English is very fast because our Spanish, particularly from where we're from in the world is very fun. I'm Panamanian. I'm mixed.

My dad's Jamaica. My mother's Panamanian. Tell me a little bit more. So, mom is from Panama. Dad is from Jamaica. They met... They met school. In med school.

I was born here, lived in Panama for a little bit, came back here. They both practiced here. Yes, yes. How many kids? One of three. All boys. Number. You are?

I'm number one. And look at the smile. You're on the face. It could be bigger. I guess I said, yeah, I'm number one. Are you number one that means something in your family? Yes. You have that special role of the first.

born son. Right. In Westinian culture, especially as just a Jamaican, it's a very big deal. They be the firstborn of a firstborn of a firstborn. So there's a lot of special and more responsible. Well, a lot more responsibilities on my end. I think I've been managed. I guess you could argue or manicured in terms of my upbringing, wherever, where a country I'm in. And you've had other relationships? Oh, yes, yes. I've had other relationships. I've been engaged. I'm older than I look. I'm 47. Previous marriages, families, children? No, no children, no marriages.

I have not been successful in that regard, which again adds and heightens the urgency of us getting this right. We're in our 30s and in our 40s. I define success of a relationship. Successive relationship to me is defined as actually getting married. I think boyfriend, girlfriend is an audition of being married. Now, of course, I know there's levels to it, and it's an audition. How is it going?

I think the audition is going well, but I'm saying that as I sit here without knowing why we're here fully, right? So obviously something is... She didn't tell you why she wanted you to come? No, we, we, the topic that had come up initially was we need to see someone about some of the challenges and the things have really heightened post-election, right? I've been able to get some pieces of the puzzle. But I think that for her, she's seeing things that I can't see

because I don't know what the real challenges. So what I know for now is that there was an initial reason. It began with a story about the geopolitics and it would help for me to just have a very brief. I don't know how much I need to know. But what always matters is, why are we here? Why now? And since you use that beautiful word, what's at stake?

How is about we start with that? Then I'll ask you a little bit about your background too. So just to have some sense. Okay, so to elaborate on the geopolitical stuff. And why it matters for your relationship? Yeah. I come from a value system that is very collaborative. And, like, there's a very big collectivist's well-being orientation to kind of all the work and the decisions that my parents have made, that my aunts, uncles, et cetera.

Like, that's very, very central. Where are they from? My father's from Burkina Faso. My mother is from Montreal. Interidge? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

He came to Canada for college by my mom. And then we, the children, eventually. when we joined, moved around quite a bit. We lived kind of all over different African countries, and then I kept moving as an adult. I ended up in the U.S. for a job and stayed for school. I went back into my Ph.D. So from that mindset, it is very important to work for the collective good. Like, that is a core value of mine.

Share with him. I think that he does a good job of caring for his immediate community. If I think about the way that he behaves with his friends, the way that he behaves with his family, I think there's a lot of caring in his immediate circle. My interpretation is that that doesn't extend necessarily beyond. And I think that is reflected in political beliefs. He voted for the current administration. I'm not a citizen. I didn't vote.

But if I were to vote, the administration that is not in power is a lot more aligned with where I am. So that was just the election piece of it. And then as things have unfolded, I'm an academic. The institute that used to work for collapse because everybody lost their job. I'm Canadian, so Canadian-U.S. relations are not doing well at the moment. I'm on a student visa. I'm a queer person. I'm a black person

I'm a woman I'm a sexual assault survivor like all of these identity groups it's okay stop a second it did sink it just came all together

inside of you to summarize that this administration has not been particularly supportive of any of those identity markers in a way that I think a lot was predictable at the time of the decision-making. But, yes, he voted Trump. He did.

And what does that represent for you and for both of you? Is your challenge with his vote synonymous with his challenge with your vote? or is your reaction to his more intense? I think it is more intense. I feel strongly about this in a way that I think he doesn't. Even in the ways that we've approached a lot of conversations, I get very emotional. I get very invested in the topics.

And he experiences them as like intellectual or hypothetical. goal. He remains in a headspace. I go very gut, hard. And you get to a place where you say, I love this guy. I'm in love with this guy. How can I be in love with somebody who votes the way he did, thinks the way he does, values what he does, etc? Yes. Yeah. I enter like a morality conflict with myself. It's the, um, am I betraying myself? Am I lying to myself? Am I trying to maybe gloss over things? Or am I, I don't have a lot of faith in my own emotions? And is this the first time that you find yourself confounded by your feelings not matching up with your values? Correct. Yeah. To this level.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so you wonder, how can I love this guy who thinks so differently for me or cares so differently than I do? Correct. And you say she has different ideas, but what does that have to do with us? Yeah. I mean, I don't see the need for my relationship to end over a macro issue that is nothing to do with a micro reality.

And do you try to win each other. other over? No, I have not tried to convince her or went it over to my particular size. So we have major political differences. Correct. We do come from a collective culture, both of us, but for me, it translates into my choice of my career, my wanting to work for the public good, my thinking that my own well-being is intertwined with the well-being of the world around me. But you are perceived as, yes, you come from that collective culture, but you have embraced a certain individualism, so to speak.

The circle is smaller for you, what you call the friends, the family, the partner, but not necessarily the world. Other major differences? So we have politics. What about religion? Oh, yeah. That's a problem for that. That's a problem for him.

That's a problem for him, not so much for me. I am a Christian. I do practice my faith. She's not, she's agnostic. It hasn't been a source of conflict per se, but that is something that's unusual for me. I've never had a relationship with someone that didn't have a relationship with God. She puts her faith in humanity and mankind, and as a man of faith, you don't. You believe in God, and that's where you put your faith at.

Is it an issue for you? No, because if it was an issue, I would have your own personal relationship to God and It lives well without her. Right, with it without her, right? It doesn't impact me, right? I don't penalize her for that, right? Because if that was the case, I would have dragged her with me to you and say, hey, we had a high-stakes problem. All right, so we have religion, we have politics.

What about gender, sexuality, queer? I don't have any. I'm as a regular old-fashioned person. Yes. by which he means he's straight. Okay, yes, I'm heterosexual. It doesn't have to be old-fashioned to be. And you define, you say, I'm a queer person.

I'm bisexual, yeah. And where does that live between the two of you? I never saw that as a conflict. I just figured that she has, who she describes herself to be, it makes sense. It almost be odd if she didn't do that, right? She's a vegetarian and she's a yogi and all these things that are like, I've never seen anyone with one of these things. things, let alone, a collective everything.

So I'm on a journey of exploration, right? We have a lot of things that are also in common. Yeah, we're getting there. What else? So we have politics, religion, queerness. What else? Her family's definitely more liberal. My family's definitely more conservative.

Maybe his relationship to the purpose of living, which is a big word. By which I mean, he's very oriented to everything, orienting towards, productivity, towards maximizing, towards like a lot of things need to fit within a framework where work is the underlying, either work or achieving an outcome. It's very achievement focus. That is not a mindset that is helpful for me. He has a goal in almost anything, any endeavor that he takes. There's a focus and a purpose. Including with you. Including with me. That is not how I approach things in general. You say he goes for optimization. I go for meaning. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And in the midst of that, you met somewhere and clicked.

He did. What were you doing? Something that doesn't involve politics, religion, queerness, or dancing. Dancing. I thought it's either musical dancing. Yeah. It's dancing. I'm looking at dancing. I'm looking at dancing. Yes, you are. We met, we actually met and began our relationship, I would argue, informally that evening at a Kisomba event. And it was a chance meeting. You just instantly invited her for then. Pretty close, right?

I come in, I change my shoes, and I crossed the hallway, or the edifice space, I guess. And everything seemed to click. We connected instantly. and we lost track of time. The event closed. It went to another event and we were still dancing by ourselves after two, three hours.

It was certainly magical. Magical to have your bodies connect like that. Yes, it was everything you read about in the story books like, you know, I love it first side, first kiss, everything just, you know. And our relationship pretty much starts that evening and we've been together ever since. Now, I didn't know anything about her at that time

in terms of, hey, I'm a vegetarian. and, hey, I don't like Trump. I mean, that wasn't important. So everything that comes now, which is organic, which would have came before, I think would have been a detriment because I'm not going to date her because she doesn't fit my value, construct, and morality, likewise for hers. It's a plausible conversation because historically she doesn't date. You would never have met online.

Diago wouldn't have liked. Oh, yes. And have put you together, right? But you met, you entered to a different door. That was very organic, physical. Nonverbal. non-verbal, especially. The first night they met,

their bodies communicated with each other for hours. They danced, they moved, they breath, they sweat. It was magical, sensual love at first sight. These bodies communicated and said tons to each other. But these bodies didn't talk about elections, religion, sexual orientation. If they had started with a conversation about these topics, they wouldn't have met again. But they had started with another conversation that took them in a very different direction. And their challenge now is can they reconcile these two very different kinds of conversation?

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urgency to make a decision and he thinks that a successful relationship leads into marriage and his marriage leads into a green card and so forth and the question is then what I we doing? Where is this going? Your question is bigger than that. If I choose this, does that mean that none of the stuff I thought was important to me is as important as I think it is? Or as I've said to myself and to others that it is? How does this reflect on me, on my integrity? I find myself not in a love dilemma vis-a-vis him, but I find my love for him constantly creating. a moral dilemma for me. Okay.

Whereas you, you say, I know what I want and what I want is you? Yeah, I think she's a good mother for my kids. That's it. Even with all, whatever stuff she's doing, I still think my kids are going to be okay. Everybody made my assessments. Meaning all of these thoughts are not going to enter mother's milk. No, I mean, I need my kids. And I think they're in there, literally.

Literally. I mean, funny. But does she receive that well, or is that taken as? No, I think the mesh. I think that's too macho. No, well, I'm Latino, right? So when it comes to these types of decisions, it's a collective decision, right? My family's involved in that.

And she's been approved. Well, yeah. I mean, I brought her to my family less than two months of us meeting because I felt strongly this was going in the right direction. Just before knowing everything about her. You know, she's got MS. I have health issues as well. They're not as, my part, as serious, but hers are.

And so she kind of get... You didn't, you were not going to say that? Did I have MS? Yeah, that comes later. I mean, it's a major part of how you live your life at this moment, or it's... No, I'm fortunate enough that I... I'm not quite asymptomatic, but I am very early on. And the mitigation I've been on so far seems to have slowed progression to stop.

really. So there's a chance that this could be it. There's also a chance that it could go in a different direction. But that doesn't stop him. No. And that matters a great deal to you too. It does. Yeah. So things are more complicated, right? It's not because you wish you could think that because he voted in one way and he sees his interests as much narrower, that that means that he doesn't have the empathic quality necessary. But then when it comes to you, he has plenty of it. And he mentions it like, here's this, this is pure, right? It doesn't matter.

And she has a mess. And she would be the best mother to my kids. And I don't care what's in her head. I still think she's a beautiful, you and a good person. my words close yeah my mom's words too probably yes no i don't want to sound like your mother that's not a good idea but going back to my point earlier right culturally in latin culture these decisions aren't made in a vacuum right so when i invite her to meet my my parents everyone has something to say everyone's chipping in everyone's going to provide their judgment

and if they knew everything else that you've learned since would that change um i think think a little bit because my family is fairly conservative. Now, you know, faith is a big deal. We're kind to Catholicism. So her being agnostic and ambivalent about that is something that would be a challenge or something that would scare them. And like, if you don't believe in God, what do you believe in? Right. And then they're looking at like, well, what is your moral compass if you don't believe in a higher power and believe in God? And how does it translate to how you would raise or prepare children for a world that is, that lacks empathy and can be very challenging and cruel, and having roots in some type of theological background can provide guidance and

avoid moral turpitude. So that, I think, would be, that's more important than politics for them would be religion. Yeah, because they would say geopolitical stuff means nothing, because these terms change every four years, three years, whoever. Man can be easily corruptors, even as someone that you like to still be corrupted. Someone you don't like could be influenced, but your faith in God tells a lot about yourself and how do you manage your well-being, right? Those that walk in Christ, their behavior is a testament and how they carry themselves.

So I don't need to tell you I'm a Christian. The way I carry myself, I present myself, should tell you, this is a man of purpose, a man of God, a man of discipline. And in West Indian culture, work is a predominant solution to everything. Your relationships having problems, you need to work harder. Your kids are messing up. You need to work harder. I don't have enough money. You need to work harder.

You're tired. You need to work harder. Work is always a solution to any and everything. I come from and live in that world. That's the only world I know. And when we are immigrants as well. So when we came to this country, my grandfather worked picking up garbage for United Airlines.

But he had to get the rest of his family, you know, my father, my grandmother, everyone here. So it had to be steps and you had to have focus and purpose as to what you were doing. So when she sees the world and she's a lot more relaxed and kumbaya, I don't know anything about that. I see folks that have, I think, the luxury of enjoying themselves and being able to take on and create first world issues and problems, but that's not the world I'm from.

When you hear him just tell the story as he just did, what happens to you? What's the feeling, first of all? Not the thoughts. A lot of this isn't actually new. Of course. But I appreciate it. I'm open to it.

I am impatient. I get irritated, I feel embraced, I feel completely separate. I appreciate it. It's probably more the general in that realm of feelings. And I say that to him sometimes, or the relationship has become more and more focused on the gaps and the differences? I would like him to fact check me. on it, but I think I express it.

Ask you. Do I express it? Yes. For example, when we were coming up here, I started looking at some vegetarian options in New York City. Nothing to do with me. Just as a partner, as a lover, courteous, I would do it for anyone, right? And then she wrote back, so this means the world to me.

I'm not saying I want to eat here, but the fact that you have put the effort and time into it, I was totally blown away by that response. And so, yeah. And do you think that part of the world? that is that you have a person next to you who has a sense that she had to fend for herself? In the way you described how moved she was by you looking for vegetarian options,

which is really how moved she was by you taking care of her. And then, of course, that she appreciated it out loud. and I was touched by this being moved by his taking care of you. He sees you, he thinks of you. He may not think about the world, which is exactly what you said, but he's taking care of you in ways that you seem to have wanted. And there, there is no betrayal. So I want to understand the moral dilemma, right?

Because that's kind of the peace that seems to be standing in the heart of why this relationship. relationship can't move. It is now in a kind of a developmental arrest. It wants to move to another stage. You finish school. You have to decide where you're going. Do you have a deadline to your stay in the U.S.? Yeah, I'm moving to Canada next November 4th in two weeks. All right. So there's imminence here. Yes. Right. And a part of you says if I think about how he thinks, I feel like I'm betraying myself, but if I think about how he feels and how he acts towards me, then I feel like maybe I have been the most loyal to myself that I've ever been. Or kind, maybe than loyal.

Yep. And so when someone thinks for you, with you, in this kind, kind, tender way as he did, it moves you. Yes. It's an important piece, and it confounds you when it stands in contrast. If he thought a certain way and then he acted a certain way, it would be much more easy to know yea or nay. And you kind of find yourself with the question, what's the relationship between one's ideology and one's actions?

And what is the piece? that I look at more. Do I judge people or look at people by virtue of their ideology and how they think and how they vote and how they believe and all of that? Or do I look at how they act and behave towards all, not just their own? Yes, I think all of us carry a host of different stances and opinions. And I think it is actually very dangerous to put people. in boxes based on one label, because, first of all, we have a ton of different labels,

some of which are contradictory, and we hold multitudes within ourselves. Of course. Even two people who, for example, have voted for Trump, the motivations can be very different and contradictory. So it's an easy thing to point to because it's like it is something that I think a lot of people can understand in a narrow way. But obviously there's... Meaning the voting, you mean? Yeah, the voting is just like one filter. The idea that we contain multitudes and her caution that we are more than just the boxes also highlights the fact that both of them have boxes. They perceive the other as part of boxes and they have requirements for the other to enter into some of their own boxes. By boxes they refer to ideologies, identities, ideas.

and they are actually both grappling with it, each of them. But if I thought he was overall a bad person or overall didn't treat me well or anything like that, then I wouldn't be here. And I assume he, conversely, all of the labels that I do carry that are antithetical to his history and the way that he has seen himself. in the same way that I am being forced to rewrite a narrative about myself

in order to make space for him. I assume he's doing the same with me. Which is why meeting through dancing, non-verbally, physically, bodily is extremely important because your bodies took you to places where your minds wouldn't let you go. Yes. They would be much more narrow-minded, whereas your body is connected in a very immediate way and more primary. So I want to know what happened to your bodies. All these differences notwithstanding, even now when our bodies meet, something melts and it crosses over.

Yes, in a variety of settings, that sense of touch, whether we're canoodling or cuddling or in much more intimate positions, that type of magic connectivity, it always comes back. Sometimes just a small touch is enough to settle the other person down. So for example, there's been points array during this session, which I'm attuned to her so I can tell or feel when she's uncomfortable. I touch her as a matter of reassurance, transfer some of the energy onto myself. And she does the same thing occasionally with me as well. She'll grab my knee or maybe we'll find each other's hands. So that's been there from inception. Without the nonverbal piece, my mind would have filtered you out as a problematic person

without getting to know who you were because I'm holding on to preconceived notions and dispositions. So without the nonverbal, it doesn't work. You may look at me and think, you know, he's probably pretty far out pretty, you know, pretty sexy, but I'm not really, but I'm not I don't, I'm not very good at flirting and so dance is a great opportunity

for me to express myself non-verbally putting together long diatribes like such as this to explaining myself, which I think would be a turnoff. I just had a thought. Here, find one of your tunes that you like.

Are we doing this? Okay. Yeah, I do have that. Just one song that may even have been the sound of that night, if you remember it. So here's what I was thinking. The stark contrast of their meeting exclusively in body language made me want to explore this further. so I asked him to pick a piece of music a piece of kizomba and then I gave each one a pen and paper

and I just said if these bodies could speak in a language that I can understand too having not been there what's the story they would tell what is the other version of your relationship that we need to open here that is in addition to all the values conversations and the other aspects of your relationship.

And they listened to the music, and they wrote, and no sooner did it start that he burst into tears, deep sobbing, grief, sobbing. So I asked him, what was the meaning of music and dance for him? There was a time when I had it, a difficult time talking. I had speech impediment. You mentioned earlier I speak quickly? Yes, you stuttered before. Right, right. You can pick up all the, I have all the classic symptoms of someone with that impediment. And so I had to find other ways to communicate to those

around me. My parents, my dad, there's not a lot of patience for that. You know, you don't want to grow up being weird or strange. So again, I was going to a speech pathologist. When I was able to discover this type of social dance and it became a much more effective tool for communicating, I do take things very serious. And when you are... That's your body story already. Take a few minutes and just write.

Okay. They stayed in the room by themselves with the music, their pants and their bodies. And after a while I came back And I asked if I could hear what the bodies had to say If this letter had a title, what would it be? Notes on my body Yeah

You want me to read it to? Uh-huh Yeah I wrote it somewhat from the perspective of my body So I recognized your body You provided a container a safe haven within which I could just be. The limit of where you started and where I ended large,

I felt like we dissolved into each other. It was a place I wanted to stay indefinitely. Your body felt strong and warm, but also soft and gentle. My body felt safe. I felt certain. I didn't need words. Her body, in essence, told him, I had a healing experience with you.

Being a survivor of sexual assault, being in the condition of a mess that I have, dancing with you allowed me to lean against you at once strong and tender. And we dissolved into one, And I wanted it to stay as such. It's the clearest she's been in the entire session so far. What's your title?

A day that repeats itself. You're going to read it to her. Okay. I listen. Not sure how to begin. I've been waiting for this moment to move forward with my life. But lacking the ingredients to do so, Why is everything so challenging?

I work so hard to achieve so little. I know life isn't perfect, and I thought this would be that opportunity, but some challenges remain the same. My clock is limited, and I love myself to believe that my time would be infinite with you. With us, why does everything have to be so challenging? I'm tired of everything being harder for me than it is for everyone else. I fall in love with someone who is not who I thought or hoped she'd be, but she was more than I expected her to be.

To many of my failed relationships, hard work doesn't solve everything. I'm afraid that I'm losing my last opportunity and I don't have a viable solution or a clear path forward. That's all I was able to write in that time. When she read her letter, it felt embodied. When he wrote his letter, it's exactly why he had learned to dance.

because with words he experienced the world that is challenging to him the world that makes him feel that he's a failure that makes him feel that he hasn't met the expectations that have been put on him as the firstborn son whereas when he listened to the music and he was in the dance

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That's Shopify.com slash ester. Here you're first this new year with Shopify by your side. I see my friend's kids going to college. I see my siblings' kids going to college. And I just feel like I'm falling further and further behind. And I'm approaching 50. And I'm going to be laid off soon. So I won't have access to health care.

A lot of things are not better or where they should be. or where I thought they would be if you asked me what my life looked like 20 years ago, 30 years ago. You know, I'd never think I'd be single without my own resources, without clarity. I guess in the middle of my life, I just figured those things would have been done, house, car, kids, just don't know how this story ends. and I work hard on myself to be what I would consider an ideal husband or father to whomever it is I'm with, but that work doesn't yield the results that I want

regardless of how hard I try. And the same thing is happening now? I feel like it's happening here as well. The visa stuff is outside of my control. The health care stuff is outside of my control. The work stuff is outside of my control. and we're still here with two weeks ago as our deadline approaches November 4th

and every day has been trying to figure out a path forward or a solution that's viable and so that's what I think the music did was it allowed me to, I guess, release because I felt... You haven't said any of this to her? No, not, maybe nibbled around the edges. Do you want her to respond to you?

Okay, sure. the emotional effect of all of that, I think, is something that has been new. It's not that I thought that you didn't care, but I have felt at different times like I've been flipping out. And I didn't know emotionally that you felt this way also because I've been panicking about it for a long time. But something that you've said a lot, is that, like, if we want to figure it out, we will. Nothing so far feels insurmountable. I am not seeing a deal breaker or, like, an ending because of geography.

We can figure out where we want to live. We can figure out what us looks like. And, yeah, it's not going to look like we thought it would 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But that isn't inherently a bad thing for me. What do you need? What do I need? I actually have a list. Would you like me to read my list?

I have, okay. We did couples counseling a little while ago, and our therapist had me list out my list of needs. I need words of affirmation. I need keeping your words. and or your words matching your actions. I need truth seeking. I need integration with my family and my friends and or integration into my community. I need to feel like a priority and or to not feel like a burden. I need to be able to plan. I need to be seen. I need to be met with curiosity.

I need physical affection. I need to be connected to a bigger purpose. I need to feel protected and or to be sure my well-being is prioritized in decision-making, I need partnership and I need moments of intimacy. That's what I need. Part of that you receive. Yeah. Parts of that I definitely receive. Well, they are something that aren't happening, though.

Yeah. They are something. So it's sorted out. I'm getting words of affirmation. I'm getting being seen sometimes I'm getting

being met with curiosity sometimes getting physical affection I'm getting feeling protected sometimes I'm getting a lot of moments of intimacy

and I wish I was getting more of what integration of my family and friends what is the problem there I guess the one I picked up on two. My friends is the big glaring spot. So he hasn't been present to a lot of the friend events that I would have expected a partner to be at.

Because? I was uncomfortable. There was some unexpected actions that had thrown me off. What was it about? Two of my closest friends, after we'd been dating for, I think, about six months, my friends Googled him. When they googled him, they found records of his license, having been revoked. Just if you read the whole thing, it doesn't look very good.

It looks like there was money that was mismanaged, et cetera. My friends came to me and said, hey, we looked up your new dude. We found this thing. I went to him and I said, hey, my friends told me about this thing. I looked it at myself right through it. What's the story behind this? My interpretation of how you experienced that is that they went behind his back or were like checking up on him. There was sequesting information for me.

And then the stuff that comes up is complicated. It was a civil matter. I'm not found liable for anything. I didn't do anything, but that's the story that's put on there. And so I felt betrayed by them. And so that led to me saying, hey, listen, I don't feel comfortable because every time I speak to these people, it's not genuine, it's false. I don't want to be a part of that.

So it would cause a big mess, right? Because now we're two years in, I don't know them, they don't know me, I don't trust them. And so we have a very, very, very big problem. And she runs a separate, almost a secret life, right? I don't know when she goes to see her friends. I don't know she goes to different events. I don't know anything about it. It's a whole separate half of her I know nothing about.

So I'm like fine. That was how I put her in a very untenable situation. And are you willing to shift that? It has to shift. And so I've begun to say, this can't last like this. So I have to move forward. You have a mess, but you can rectify that mess. You need to know which are the pieces that are not in your control

and which are the relational pieces that you can fix. And at some point, if the opportunity presents, you'll talk with the two main people and you'll just say, for her, we need to find a way to be able to not create secrets. But it's not generally. you. It's not genuine than this. I mean, this is genuine? No, I think the same thing for you. It's like, do they even know you're still dating him? Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay. So then you say, I've got to open this up. You may or you may not like each other or you may, but he needs to be

included in the things that are large groups or whatever. That's for you to say. Because if you decide to stay together, it probably is not going to be a very good situation. So they're waiting for you. You're the pivot. You're the triangulated person and you're the pivot. Are they trying to dissuade you? I have no one in my life who's trying to dissuade me of anything. What has happened as a result of this is that I also have no one in my life who has experienced us. I have no one in my life who has seen us interact, who have any insight into my relationship that isn't what I'm sharing.

You don't have any friends, shared friends. No? You don't hang out as a couple with any friends. Not really, no. We don't have those friends. You've put yourself in a more vulnerable place by having secluded your relationship, by not having other witnesses,

other participants. I'm guilty too, right? Yes, yes. There's no air. There's no variety. There's no other people. There's no input. There's no observatory.

You know, I tend to think as a whole that relationships don't live well in a vacuum. They asphyxiate. It's interesting with you. It's like pieces of the story are emerging. urging now that I would have put on the top. There's layers. There's layers. But it depends which layer you open up first, you know.

We're at the end of the session, and I have just learned about how isolated they are. None of her friends have ever seen her in her life with him. None of them have ever been able to say, okay, so he doesn't vote like you, he doesn't believe like you, he doesn't eat like you. but he is loyal and there and present and caring and loving. And that may have been one moment of reconciliation between values and feelings, between her love and her thinking. At the same time, for him, this family know her, but they don't know what she thinks

or what she believes or doesn't believe. And so each one of them finds themselves in this space in between without an anchor. Do you make plans? I do not make plans. Why? I'm not sure what I'm planning for. She's leaving November 4.

When's the next time you meet? After the meet, she and I? Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know. Why not? We usually see each other on Friday, Saturday. We usually see each other on the weekends. Even when she will be in Canada?

No. All right. So what happens after November 4? I've got no clue. Well, why not? Why not? What prevents you from making a plan? You're allowed to go in and out of the country, right?

Yes. Okay. What prevents you from making a plan? I've avoided that particular topic. So, no, I've not taken a time not to figure out how are the plan. Why? I've been distracted. Because you're not sure that you are still a couple, because you think that this trip is basically the end without stating it,

or because you are challenged by actually saying, I bought a ticket, I'll be there on the 28th. I guess it's probably more the latter. What I will confess is that, yes, I've been distracted. And I thought that the date for this was a different date. The November 4th thing just was, I guess, decided recently. So a lot of this stuff I'm still processing. Do you know, you wrote what you need.

Do you know what you want? I mean, do you, with him, with him, that's what I want. Like you're basically saying to him, a lot of things you say are very nice, but it does not follow true with actions. I need you to be more, you know, know, I need you to bring your achievement orientation to us and not just to your work. He says, my mind has been elsewhere because I'm massively anxious because I won't have a job at some point soon, and I'm very worried about that.

But this, I don't make plans and I've been distracted over two years. It's not solid. But on the other end, you don't say either. You turn to him. You wait for him, he doesn't make the plans, and then you kind of end up acting by default. I have to go home because my paper is over. You don't like the things that are not in your control, but you use them. They end up making the decisions more than the two of you.

Those circumstances that you have to surrender to end up being the determining factors. I'm hoping I'm not being harsh. I mean, I'm just trying to be. No, we need clarity. No, no, wiffle waffle. It's excellent. It's excellent. How is this conversation for you?

The conversation is good. I mean, I think what you're saying is hitting a lot of things that I think are very true about our relationship and about the way that we've navigated it. I think both of us are really bad at saying, you know, I want this. I think you both are doing this. will tell you what I want when I know from you that it is possible. Yeah, I agree with that. But I can't ask for something if I'm not sure that there's a possibility, it would actually happen. And so you're teetering constantly on the doubt.

You don't need certainty to want. I want us to stay together. I want us to plan how we're going to deal with that next year. I want us to think what are our options. I want us to plan, I want us to be together for the holidays. I want, I want. They're nice things. I want you to meet my friends.

I want to get over this thing. I don't have the answers. But what I don't hear from either of you is, I believe in us. I want this. You can say I don't know what I want. I'm not sure about us. I need to go home and rethink.

Possible too. They are inflicting doubt on each other all the time and they have no mechanisms to dispel that doubt, which is what a village around us often does in a relationship. And being upended like that, being isolated, having no mirrors. I do think is a part of why they are unable to make plans, in why they are unable to just make a statement, I want this, put themselves out, however vulnerable it is,

and actually give the other person reassurance by their wanting. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent? noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and the cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Thank you.