Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Can We Repair After a 25 Year Affair?

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Through forty years of marriage, they built a life together. They immigrated to the United States, raised children, grew a business, and established a community. Six months ago, her longtime suspicion was confirmed: her husband had engaged in a twenty-five year affair with her cousin. Reeling from the truth, she questions how he could have done this to her. Overtaken with guilt, he hopes that time will heal their wounds. They arrive at Esther's office wondering what they can do to repair their relationship after this profound betrayal. Esther is returning to SXSW on March 14th for a special live episode of Where Should We Begin. Visit http://voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more and preregister. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Support for the show comes from one password. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way bad actors

attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. OnePassword lets you manage all your business credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at OnePassword.com slash podcast offer and start securing every login. Support for the show comes from OnePassword. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies, and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution.

OnePassword lets you manage all your business credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at OnePassword.com slash podcast offer and start securing every login. They met for the first time on the day of their engagement. They are an arranged marriage. They had been promised to each other as teenagers. They came to the United States together to hope for the American dream, which they got to experience. And in the midst of this lives a 25-year affair. I lied to her many times hiding when she found out.

It was really painful. Sometimes I wish I never found out. The fact that so many times he denied and he was caught and he was not honest is very disturbing to me. They are outstanding members of their community. They have large families. And I'm mentioning all of this because to understand the role of the affair is to understand its ripple effects on all these other relationships. And the questions of secrecy and transparency need to be mapped against this whole backdrop. The role of the therapist is to meet people where they are at and to accompany them wherever they choose to go.

because they are the only ones who will live with the consequences of their decisions. In this couple, the woman very clearly says to us, I want this to work. I am not coming here for you to help me leave. It is a commitment for life. The affair is over and they want to recover from it or to continue from it. Maybe what I would consider is after an arranged marriage, this time they can have a chosen marriage.

When you have an arranged marriage like the one you had, what were the ideals, the ambitions that you brought with you about marriage? What is the conception of what marriage is about? It's about staying together for life. Divorce is not even an option. That's not something that was acceptable. So it's a one-time enterprise with no one-time. exit and the commitment is for life. The reason I ask is because if that is the frame, then the way you deal with crisis is very different than if you think you have a way out. I mean, it's not

like now it's not acceptable. I mean, within our community, not in our immediate families. There have been divorced and people are more open to the idea of separating, but still thinking about the families and the culture and the ties that you make within a marriage, it's hard to break. It's not just two spouses getting apart. It's the whole family falling apart. Marriage is not between two individuals. Our marriage is between two families. Yes. And even more. And even more. Okay. You want to say something. There was no choices but to listen to the parents. And this is going on for centuries the way it was.

So we had to listen and we have to go with their decision. That's how the normal life was. There's another piece that was part of the normal life. I'm sure nobody went to see a therapist. nobody I think we're the person's oh wow yeah right what's that like for you to be sitting here right now the way that this happened the betrayal that happened is painful but honestly having a therapist and listening to the therapist it opens our eyes so I'm blessed that I listened to you and some other podcast.

It opened my eyes that my mistakes causes so much to hurt other people. That was surprising to you? It was a surprise for me how much pain I cost. I lied to her many times, hiding, but when she found out It was really painful and I wish I would have stopped not hurting it anymore.

But that's my fault and I caused it and I hope I can heal her moving forward. That's all I, whatever you can ask, I can just. I mean, I'm basically going to ask you to tell me, bit what happened. Yes. Which can be told in many different ways. Yes. But you can just give me the basics. We are going to meet only once, so I don't need to know every detail. Yeah, so the person who he was engaged with was my cousin. Same age? No, she's about 15, 18 years younger to him and a lot younger to me. she was somebody who we supported a lot because she grew up without a father and she's my aunt's daughter. So when she came to America, I took her as a little sister, helped her get her everything and got her job and helped her get situated somehow or the other she was living with us.

and I could see she was very manipulative even then like she was lacking something that she was trying to find from any man that she met so I saw little signs of him gravitating towards her even then like she needs a license but only he can go and help her or she needs a car only he wants to go help her or whatever she needed, he would run and do it for her. So she had met somebody who she was about to get married around.

It was in the early 2000s. So this is a story of how many years? 25, yeah. And he kind of tried to help her with setting up a business with the man she was marrying. And they started meeting alone and trying to discuss the business plan. and slowly trying to get closer, I guess, during that time. So one time it was Diwali, and we had a party going on, and they both didn't show up, and it was late,

trying to find him, and he couldn't locate him. And then when they both arrived, I asked her, oh, what took you so long? Where were you? And she said, oh, I went to celebrate Diwali, and that was it. But then when I came home, something in my heart told me, something wasn't right. So I confronted him that day, and he acknowledged that he was with her,

and they were in a parking lot talking about the new business venture that she was opening than nothing else. And I was like, why couldn't you talk about that venture in front of everybody what was so secretive? And I still have that question,

which I never got the answer for. The answer is that they never discussed business. I don't know, what was it? But I was ready to leave the house that day. He stopped me. There's nothing. You don't trust me. You don't believe me.

There's nothing. There's nothing. I stayed. And ever since, and I told her that... That was 25 years ago? 25 years ago. And so for 25 years, you lived with a second sense? Yes.

Yes. From that day on, I told her to get out of my life, to get out of my house, that you're not welcome to my house anymore to leave. but little did I know that she never went away from his life. And I always had some suspicion. Let me ask you. The suspicion was because of how he behaved toward you. The suspicion was because of how he would have his mysterious disappearances.

No. He never disappeared, but I knew he had some contact with her. Something within me said something's not right. and I used to have dreams about him marrying her and I woke up and I told him all this and he would just brush it off, never even talk about it and a few times I caught him texting her and then he would say,

oh, it was just because I wanted to wish her happy birthday. Why do you have to wish her happy birthday? You don't even remember your sister's birthday. Why would you remember her birthday? And then I still kept on giving him chances over chances over chances. I don't know why. So many times... May I suggest one reason?

Because sometimes when you know, you have to deal with the consequences of knowing. So sometimes people live with a sense, and they never translate that sense into knowing. Because knowing would demand that they take out. action and it sometimes is an action they don't want to take. It's possible. Sometimes I wish I never found out. It's like how do I deal with the consequences?

So that strange thought is actually very common. If I don't know, I wish I knew and when I know, sometimes I wish I didn't know. Because knowing now puts me in a situation where I am not just dealing with how he betrays me but I'm wondering if I'm betraying myself. Absolutely. People are often obsessed with the idea of how could you live for so long and not ask and not know or believe? And it's because there is something really very sometimes dark and complicated in the idea

that sensing is still better than having the truth. Because once you have the truth, you have to respond. to it. Because once you have the truth, you can't say, I asked and he denied. Whatever he did is no longer determining of my response, only my integrity, my choices, however compromising and imperfect they may be. And it's me vis-à-vis myself. As long as we are in the sensing zone, it's me and you. Once we are in the truth zone, it's me and me. But I also feel like I kind of am relieved. I'm not tracing him anymore.

I'm not worried who he's talking to anymore. I was always like, who's he texting? Why is he texting? Why is he not sleeping? Why is he late? So this was very active? I mean, at least in my mind. I don't know how active he was or no.

But for me, everything was a suspicion. He moved. I would be like, where are he going? He's in the bathroom. I'm like, oh, does he have his phone with him? This is how I lived. For me, every minute was torture. But at least now, I don't care. You want to talk to her, go talk to her. I really don't care anymore because it's kind of now out and I know what the truth is. The lies were really bothering me more than his relationship. The fact that so many times he denied and he was caught and he was not honest is very disturbing to me. So what's it like for you when you hear this? And I mean, do you visualize it when she describes it?

Are you back in the scene? Yes. Obviously, she got hurt because of my lies. And I stay in touch. I texted three, four times a week. And that was an issue because I was hiding it from her. because of my life, she got hurt. And that's also my biggest regret that why did I go that far?

You've said this a couple of times now, that it was very shocking to you to see your wife being so hurt. Why then? Why did that moment suddenly make you realize that your behavior was, so hurtful when for 25 years she's asking you, what's up? And you were so dissociated in the lie that you couldn't imagine that it could hurt her? First of all, thinking about in so many years that she saw me texting, I didn't listen to all that, that this person is not just with you.

this person have done this to other people as well. I ignored it. This woman has seduced other men. Is that the idea? Yes, yes. But I felt comfortable with her and our relationship moved on. But to answer your question, I knew that I'm lying to her, but I didn't know the trauma situation that my act had so many consequences

and one of the biggest consequence was the trauma that I caused, that I lost her trust. And it's very hard to gain it back. And for me, the person always showed you. mean that I am a wanted person. She liked me being around. She has done the same thing to other people as well, but I fell for it. So my regret is that I fell to the seduction of my mistress. Yes. And that other people saw it from afar, whereas I let it wrap me. Yes. And why do you think you were more susceptible?

My biggest reason was to help her out, and that was my soft point. I mean, I have done that with other people in my life as well, but this was the one that I went too far. And what is it about being a sugar dad that is so compelling? I don't know what's the meaning of sugar dad. You can guess. It's a word that you don't use, but I'm going to introduce it to you. Sugar Dad is, I don't know if I'm right to support someone in their life.

No, because you can be generous to a lot of people. That's not the point. Did you see her as powerful? Powerful as insiductive? Yeah, I can say that, yes. And so my question to you is, what made you susceptible to her charm, her seductions, her brittleness, her neediness, her reliance on you? There's a paternal relationship here, and she lost her daddy young. Yeah.

And you come very kind. What made you susceptible? This woman did not do something to you that you did not want. done to you? It was seductive way of talking, and she wanted something. It attracted me towards the person. We talked about her power of seduction

and his power of being paternal, giving, but in an eroticized context, so that he, He wasn't just extracting. He was giving in return. And that made the relationship in his eyes more honorable. At the same time, he also realizes that he wasn't that special. He was one of many.

And that this was her way of connecting, of bringing together something very erotic and something very noble. As he begins to unravel this script, he becomes more aware of how it was a combination for him of feeling flattered and manipulated, which is one of the ways that the rapture begins to dissolve. And that's where the dissociation cracks open. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes

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or during a workout or watch from your phone, laptop or TV. I've been checking out the class of John Cabot-Zinn on mindfulness and meditation. I was so glad to know that this course existed. Somehow I wasn't aware of it. And he's one of the first people to bring mindfulness meditation, stress management based in mindfulness to the West. And for decades, I have been learning from him. So I'm very glad to see him on the roster of Masterclass.

and to be able to recommend this course to you. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% of any annual membership at masterclass.com slash begin. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash begin. Masterclass.com slash begin. Estere is coming back to South by Southwest this year for a special live episode of where should we begin. This year, Esther will be joined by Academy Award winning filmmaker Spike Jones.

To explore what happens when the being that we feel knows us the best isn't a human being. The session will be open to all South by Southwest badge holders. Visit Voxmedia.com slash SXSW to get a discount on an innovation badge and pre-register for our live taping. You can also learn about all the other sessions on the Vox Media podcast stage, which will feature Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, Brayne Brown, and Adam Grant, Marquez Brownlee, Vivian 2, and Waymore. Visit voxmedia.com slash SXSW to learn more. And I'll see you there. And that's my regret is I did this for so long.

So here's the thing. When you feel bad about what you've done, when you regret, when you have remorse when you feel guilty, sometimes it prevents you from actually understanding why you did it. Because you feel so bad about it that the last thing you want to do is actually think about why you did it. That's true. So this question about why you were so susceptible, who were you with her? What parts of you were she appealing to? Is it okay then I'm asking him these questions in front of you? Of course, these are the questions I've asked repeatedly and never gotten the answers. You know why?

And the reason I'm asking it is because the temptation is sometimes to want to find out the facts of the affair. What you did when you saw her, where you went, which hotel, da-da-da. It doesn't really help us. To know the facts doesn't really help us. The meaning of it is what we're. help, not just what you did, but what it meant. And because you feel so bad about what it did, you're not really able to ask yourself, what was this like for me? I'm not a guy who usually does stuff like that. That's not who I am. I don't particularly think of myself as a liar,

and yet here I found myself lying consistently with this strange notion that if I and she doesn't know, then it won't hurt. That's true. Our whole family respects him so much. He's looked upon as sincere, helpful. Like, everything you can imagine, my family loves him more than me for everything he's done for everybody. Who knows what?

The whole system is involved now? No, no, no, no. I'm very reluctant to talk to. And, like, only a few people. Because they would be so mad. at him that they would make it? And I don't, if I'm staying with him, my biggest thing is I don't want him to look upon down or to me be felt sorry for.

People look up to us like we have the perfect life, the perfect home, the perfect family, the perfect car, the perfect house, the perfect beach house, the perfect vacation. We have everything anybody wants. I don't want that to go away if we are living together. if we want to stay together. So why should they think of him differently? I don't want people to know because once they see that,

it's as if it will subsume everything else. The fact that he cheated is more important than all the other things that he has done. And they will think ill of him. And they will pity me that I had no choice or that I made the unfortunate choice to stay with this person and they will disrespect him and they will disrespect me.

And that is a very layered, complex dilemma that so many people face at that moment because now she is beholding the secret of his secret. This is an aspect of the recovery process that is not so known. When we collapse it all into yes or no, on or off, we bypass some of the more complicated, deeper decisions that we make in the process of this. And yet they are so important and so determining for the life afterwards.

So he's a very helpful person. He's helped many people in his life. And that's, I think, the biggest problem that he fell into with her. I think him helping, helping, helping and trying to give her the comfort of what she's missing and I don't know, every celebration felt like was with her. A week after my granddaughter was born, he went and he met her.

A week after my dad passed, he went and he met her. It was hurtful. And ever since, I just cannot, I cannot accept why would he do this to me? We have a perfect life, a good life, everything. I've tortured. Like, I've been tortured. I don't know why.

I hear you. I hear you. And I'm not sure that he's going to be able to answer you right away. I'm not sure he knows. But if you say this is not the person that everybody knows, then there's another part of this person that has lived here, separate from the rest of you, that is dissociated.

That doesn't mean it's okay. It just says there is this upstanding citizen that everybody admires, that is revered in the community, that has a perfect life, that wants to be respected, et cetera, et cetera. And La Acote, next to it, is this very same person

who is risking it all, basically. So at this moment, you're revisiting the scene of the crime all the time, in this kind of ruminating way, and you are revisiting your reaction to what it felt like to finally see the effect that your behavior had on her.

And each of you is just replaying those two scenes. They're very, very powerful and painful, but they're holding you stuck. Instead of saying what I did to her, what I did to her, not because you shouldn't, but in addition, you have to ask yourself, what was this about for me? And that cannot just be because she was seductive

and because she has charms. Why does it mean to be a very respected, upright citizen who goes and is naughty on the other side? If we can get you a little bit unstuck from these two positions, because if she tells the story, you're looking into the emptiness, you're bracing yourself, you're waiting for it to end.

You are not relating to her. You are not responding. You are not putting your hand on her. You're not making her feel better. You're not telling her, I'm here with you now. You're just sitting there like a chastised man, boy, and waiting for it to stop. Yes, that's how we are. Yeah.

It's not going to be good. Turn to her. Tell her, don't tell me the same story again. You don't have to revisit it. We both know it. it, join her, help her. I get it, yes. I want you to remove those pillows and then take her hand and reach out.

Yes. If you go into your corner, you freeze and you wait until the shower passes, you're going to really damage your relationship. Not that it hasn't been damaged yet, but this will not give you the repair and the return and the reconnection that you want. Thank you for telling me that. Thank you. So you may turn to her and then she may just say,

I don't believe you. I'm not going to let you put your hand on me if I don't know if it's going to stay. It's been wandering for a long time. Yes. So then you have to be steady and not be instantly toward it because she didn't welcome you with open arms.

Do you think you can do it? that? I can do that. I'm daring you. He says that. Doing and saying is two different things. What would you want in this moment, for example, when you were retelling the whole... I've retold it so many times now that I don't expect anything from him at this point because, I mean in the beginning,

beginning, I was giving him the benefit of doubt that I was opening up to him. I was trying to accept him even with what he's done. And I kind of felt like I'm still doing the effort. He's not putting any effort in. I'm looking for a therapist. I'm trying to put things together. I'm trying to say, okay, let's go somewhere. I'm trying to make that connection. and his life is the same. He's always like, the time will heal it, everything will be okay, everything will be okay. That's his... Talk to him.

That's your way of trying to say, we'll get through it, and whatever happens will happen. You're okay with if I stay with you or not stay with you, or if I choose to go, whatever your decision is, I would... You believe that? I don't know. He doesn't want me to go, but he doesn't say, no, that cannot happen. You have to stay. He's like, whatever you decide, it's fine with me. I'll support you either way.

I'm not going back to her, but I don't want you to be stuck with me. And that's because you don't think you have any right to ask for anything. You've kind of used up your quota? Obviously right. I am in a position right now that I cannot ask. what I want because of what I did but I'm hoping in the very beginning when I found out I was actually aroused by having him again and getting him back and promises that we're going to have a good life this that that and we had some good times and even then I

was making the effort all the time not him Maybe he was ashamed, maybe he was stuck, whatever. But I tried, but then that he still stuck or he's still ashamed or he's still in love, I don't know. But he's still not there. I don't feel his presence still. And I hear you all the time saying there are three or four marriages in everybody's life. And most of the time it's with the same person. and I feel like, okay, I can get remarried to him again, but should I?

Is it again the right person to get remarried to? Mm-hmm. And I'm not there yet. She's talking to me in this moment, and she refers to something that she heard me say, in a talk where I said that today in the West, many people are going to have two or three adult relationships or marriages. in their lifetime. And some of us will do it with the same person. And so when there is an affair, it sometimes spells the end of that marriage. And then the question opens itself up that says,

would you like to have another one with each other? And that has been a very hopeful thing for her, because it gives her a dignified way to re-engage with him on a new relationship, on a new marriage. This is only six months. I know you think that's an eternity, but you can give it a stretch more. But that is a decision that only you can make. But the decision doesn't just come from inside. The decision comes from what you are creating together now.

So when you say, I don't feel like I can ask for anything right now. I've committed wrong and therefore I've used up my allowance. I'm going to say it differently to you. What your wife wants to feel more than anything from you is that you actually do want her. Obviously, yes. But don't say that to me. Yeah. And when I say I want her, it's not just sexually.

But it can include that. And that's what she's telling you. I don't feel he really is there. I don't feel he really wants me. The whole us. And you're going to need to convince her of that. Because an affair, and especially an affair of 25 years like that, is a fundamental devaluation of my importance.

The lies, the duplicity, the deception, the betrayal, all of that basically said, I'm not that important. And so you need to convince her, if that is indeed what you want, of her value. The first thing is your regret, you guilt. But after that, it's your affirming, I will fight for this. So I'm scared of that because I did that to her. And as you mentioned that I'm in my shame or I, I feel that guilt.

But I get it, and I'll fight for it. And it's been in that situation that if I hug her later on, she said, I don't need your hug. And then what do you say? You leave? I retreat. All right. And so in the new scenario, what would you do? I'll double hug, a triple hug.

And? I don't know. That's right. You don't know. I don't know. We always have thing that she said, you don't care about me or you don't love me. Says who? My wife.

But I don't have the answer for it. I don't have the answer for if I care about you. Meaning I don't know? She wants to know a specific way to tell if I care about her. And why do you love me? Yes. In that sense? Yes.

Did you ever care for me? And I admitted, okay, based on I don't have any way to explain that I do care about you. I gave up. And I said, probably that's right. I don't care about you. Oh, you capitulate? Yes, I said that. So here's how I understand this question.

You have kids, you have your siblings, you have your nephews, your uncles, your aunt, your family, your community, your businesses, etc. I want to protect all of this. And I want to protect your reputation, partly for you and partly for myself. Because I don't want to feel that when I'm... I stay with you, I have everybody looking down at you and wondering, you know, what she's doing with him. I agree with that. I know. In the midst of all these reasons that are beyond her, that are maintaining the entire social network, is a very clear flicker that says, but do you care about me?

Not just everything we build together, not just the scaffolding of our relationship, but the absolute connection between you and I. That's what she wants to know. Whether you love the other woman or you didn't, whether you can love two women, make love to two women, all of that, she will have to absorb all of this, but she, you know, is there a little corner just that makes me special for you? Arranged or not arranged? I'm sure there's plenty of things that you appreciate about each other.

That's what she needs to hear. Compliment her with everything you can tell her that you appreciate about her. And if she's as smart as she is, she knows that you did it with the other person. Because with the other person, you felt free. With the other woman, you felt I don't have to worry about being criticized. She's not going to pick a fight with me. I'm never doing anything wrong. I'm actually really loose.

I'm playful. I'm alive. I'm sexy. I'm all of these things. And what she would like is for you to have some of this with her. In effect, they are in transition. In their arranged marriage, they were each inhabiting their roles. She was the wife, he was the husband, she was the mother, he was the father, she was the daughter-in-law, he was the son-in-law.

And these roles were often it. And the transition is from being in a role to being really chosen as a person. From it to I endow. And that's really what she needs to know. Am I more than just the person who fulfilled a role for you? Am I that person where your freedom and your free choice also directed itself too? We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. It's never too early to plan your summer story in Europe with WestJet.

From rolling countryside to cobblestone streets, begin your next chapter. Your seat at westjet.com or call your travel agent. Westjet, where your story takes off. What are the main takeaways of the foreign policy section from Donald Trump's State of the Union address? I do think they've made a decision to elevate domestic issues as we head towards the midterms. We'll see if that sticks because he keeps getting drawn back to the foreign policy issues. I'm John Feiner. And I'm Jake Sullivan.

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He's planned one thing for me. Never. But yes, he knows how to because he did it for her. So he knows how to please people. It's not like he doesn't know how to do it. He knows how to play. And the question is, where is play between the two of the years? you? Is that a part of your relationship? And often, in the middle of a revelation of an affair like that, either people completely split or they, as you described before, suddenly experience a sense of arousal and passion and intensity that they haven't felt in years. I did feel that in the beginning, but then I lost it because I didn't see it from him. So, and I still don't see it from him. He's still tight.

just trying to get through life. To not disappoint you, to not make you angry. But that may have happened throughout your marriage. That is not new. Oh, so it was about not... That you know how to play, but that you don't play in the family. You don't play in your marriage.

And you never have. You created a demarcation. Here, I do the responsible stuff. There I do the fun and playful stuff. Here I'm tight. There I'm loose. Here I do the fearful husband. There I do the bold lover.

Yeah. So throughout years, my wife, she tried to do her duty for the intimate portion of that because I wanted it. I enjoy that intimate portion of it. of our life. But for some reason, I felt that she doesn't enjoy that portion. And I don't want to be playful if she doesn't want me that way. And you think she was just doing her wifely duty?

It was doing her duty, but not enjoying it. But how could I, when I know, he has somebody else in his life? throughout all the years? Throughout. So 25 years. I know you're lying to me. I know you have another lie. How could I?

But I was still doing my lifely duties. Yeah. And sometime even just reaching out to her on her side of the bed, she always thought that maybe I need something from her that I came on that side. But apart from sex, is it anything else that we do that we should enjoy together? That is not your priority.

That's what I'm saying. You've never booked a hotel for me. You've never taken me somewhere for dinner. I have done. I have planned everything. But he has never taken the effort to make me feel wanted nothing. The sentence about how he has never booked a hotel room for the two of them, but he took his mistress to the hotel, could appear as petty.

But in fact, this statement of jealousy, even of competitiveness, that lurks behind the anger, is very, very important. Because what she highlights is that affairs are an erotic betrayal. She's not just suffering. from the breach of trust that took place as a wife. This is not just an attachment injury. This is, we are part of a romantic story. And in that story, I want to feel that I'm your chosen one too.

From a recovery point of view, the jealousy is very important because it is an energy that is striving, that wants something. And it actually is a counterforce to the collapse that sometimes can be experienced when one is just purely a victim of rejection and dejection. This may sound a little strange, but I knew she understood it. I knew she felt it.

I understand that you went to play elsewhere. And now, if you are to be with me, I want to be that playmate with you. And that is an invitation, and that is a very different way of redefining the relationship. You're right on that. I'm guilty for that. she is a good planner.

Wherever we go, she plans. Yeah, but that's... Yeah. Doesn't matter. You know, if people could bring 10% of their

initiatives and imagination that they bring to their affairs into their marriages, their marriages would be doing a lot better. Yes. So there's a complacency. I don't have to.

She's a better planner. And you have a dance here. Yes, for me to enjoy it, I need to know that you're enjoying it too, and you're into it. It's a two-way thing. It's not just for me. But for me, it would be not just doing my duty. I like to know that you're actually into me and that you want me. And that involves certain romancing, which you have actually never done.

So indeed, you are right to think that I'm not so interested. And indeed, you are right to think that I am not really making the effort to let you know that I really want to connect with it. you. And you don't feel wanted by him and he didn't necessarily feel wanted by you. And there are loads of reasons how one finds oneself in that place, but this is an easy door. People don't have a 25-year affair with someone who they wonder if they want them. That's taken care of. And how you let each other know that that's not the case. now is an invitation for both of you. Every time you think I don't have to make a reservation because she's a better planner,

you are adding another brick to the marital graveyard. That might be one of the reason, because she is very particular about what she wants. It doesn't matter. You tell her, I did it for us. I did it the way I thought it would be nice, be gracious. Okay, if you know me. The point, no, no, this is the thing. No, don't go.

Because he's going to tell you, why bother doing anything? You're so particular, you know exactly the way you want it. If I do it my way, you're not going to appreciate it. And then you're going to tell him, you know me so well. Why don't you know exactly what to do that would be what I like? And then what you will have is him on strike and you complaining. But if he knows me, right? He knows me.

No, it doesn't work this way. No. It doesn't. It actually does. But he should at least try. But he should try and you need to tell him, please try, I'll be gracious. I will appreciate it for the gesture. I will be.

You understand? Each of you is going to have to tell the other, I will do my part. You cannot not do it because she's going to not be happy about it no matter what. I listen to you and I don't care if she got upset going forward. You know, okay, so you know what you made me think about? Since you never dated before you got married. Obviously. I think you need to date.

This is what you're both talking about. You take each other out on dates. Maybe he needs to date me because I've done that. No, but you can't. If you go and you tell him, I've done this our entire marriage, it's always been me, it's maybe totally true, but it's not productive. But if you are considering putting your first marriage to rest and exploring whether there's a second marriage that you want to have with each other, and do it not from a place of resentment and bitterness, but really this is an invitation for us to do something else.

We won't undo what happened, but the meaning that we give to it will determine what we can become. And that's a very different way to enter into this. Definitely, yes. Because I feel like I have tried and done, but he hasn't and he doesn't take the steps to initiate anything again. So for me, I'm kind of like giving up at this point. Like, why should I keep on doing it?

Maybe I should accept it and move on. And I shouldn't have to ask for connection or ask for love or ask for anything. Maybe we can still live together and live our own lives and still one of us dies. And that's going to be the end of it. You know what? It could be an option, but it's not yours. Because it's not what you really want. At least not yet.

I don't. And it's not necessarily what he really wants either. I want to tell you that I'm tired of living a double life. and my commitment is to you and if you allow me to keep it that way, I'm ready for it, and I want to give you a peace of a mind that what I did in the past,

I'm not going to do it in the future. and I am truthful to you, so I am looking forward, as Esther said, you can remarry, and I want you to feel that way. I'm sorry I realized it very late, but... What took you so long to realize it? Why do you realize it now is my question.

I'm not doing it for the show, or anything or to show other people. I love the way we used to laugh and connect with each other. That connection has broken. But I can try my best and look forward to connect with you. And no matter what it takes, I'm there for you. I don't want we keep on arguing and fighting with each other. Let's start the connection as this moment.

Every affair will redefine a relationship, or in this case a marriage. But every relationship will determine what the impact of the affair will be. This is their crossroads. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.