Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Couples Under Lockdown: Bavaria, Germany

Episode Date: April 2, 2020

For the last year they have lived in separate countries. She took a dream job closer to where she grew up in Germany and he stayed behind with the promise he would follow soon. Six months turned into a year, which turned into a conversation that questioned the foundation of their marriage. It took the coronavirus to get them back under one roof again. While others might complain about the close quarters, this couple hopes to find themselves in each other again. Esther pushes them to worry less about the love that was, and focus now on the love that is. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don't really know if this would be his choice if it weren't for the coronavirus crisis. So there is also, I think, this underlying thread that once this is over, he will be gone again. None of the couples you are about to hear are ongoing clients of Esther Perel. For the purposes of maintaining their confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. 17 years ago, they met in Germany, and it probably would have been just an adventure. Our story was very crazy and messy at the beginning.

I was pregnant after our third date. We basically met in February, and we were pregnant in July. And that was the beginning of everything. She moved to Italy. They've lived together in the Tuscan Hills. They've had quite a nice arrangement, an equilibrium between the two of them. And this equilibrium got disrupted a year and a half ago when she accepted a big job in Germany.

But I kept checking in with her. Are you fine with this? Are you coming? Are you still committed? And he said, yes, yes, yes. But he never came. And then I started to realize, wow, we are only fighting. What's going on?

And it got worse. In the summer, he said, look, we've been through a lot and you will always be that special person for me, but I'm not sure if I still love you. I don't know, at a certain point I felt that something broke up and I thought that our love was finished. When Italy became a red zone, she called him and asked him to come immediately. A few hours later, they are actually for the first time reunited as a family,

the two of them and their daughter, in ways that probably would never have happened otherwise. Finally, I feel protected again. And I don't want to lose this. But what isn't sure if this is going to be the beginning of a new stage or just a temporary COVID-19 blip. It's not permanent.

It's temporary. It will finish and I don't know what's happening to us after this. I still don't understand why I'm here in Germany. I'm still captured by the dream that we already had.

We are still a little bit pissed, one against each other, for different reasons. Her reason probably is because I didn't follow as she expected and as a proper family father would have done. And I'm pissed because she basically left me there alone, like, I don't know like what, but I just stayed, I just remained there alone.

So, and I guess we are still angry to each other about that and so there is one part of me that thinks that she I mean she did everything for the career actually, that it's okay I agree with that I agreed when we decided to move to Germany

for the career and everything but at a certain point I probably changed my mind and I didn't share with her that probably was more difficult than what I thought. This was before she moved. I realized that there was something that was not in the right position even before she moved, but I never shared this feeling with her. So tell me if I hear you accurately we are stuck that is the one thing we both agree on we are stuck because we are each resenting the other for having felt let down for having felt let down, for having felt that the other person in some way did not really follow through. We are used to being pissed at each other

rather than being able to acknowledge that we may have hurt each other and that I hurt her by not telling her what was going on with me. I hurt her by not following up with her. And I wish that she would realize how much she hurt me by the way that I felt alone in a home that was no longer a family home. And maybe if we were able to be less caught into the entitlement of the deprived, and we were more able to focus on how much we hurt each other, we would actually be able to connect at least as a start.

Does that capture it? Yes, that is good. What would be the wish for you? For me, the difference is that I have apologized even though I didn't do anything. I don't want your justification. You're going straight into a defense.

You're not on trial. I'm just asking you justification. So you're going straight into a defense. I'm not, you're not on trial. I'm just asking you, what would you like that would make this worthwhile? Yeah, I want to understand if he still cares because our love has been so big at the beginning. We had an amazing love story and now I don't feel any appreciation or any love from his side. So that would be my biggest wish to understand if he really still cares, if he really still wants this family and the commitment and responsibility and work that is connected to it. So the second part of the wish would be to have a vision for our future. Okay.

So if I asked you, what's one of your dreams when you talk about a shared vision, how do you imagine it? Oh, actually, I don't know if it's the right answer, but I have the feeling that we were living in a dream in Florence when we were in Florence. Actually, we bought this beautiful house on the hills of Florence. It was the next, I don't know what's the next dream, a big plan. And it was already there and actually probably I'm not fast enough to change

my vision of this dream because I still captured by the dream that we already had. We already reached one of our dreams that was to buy a house, to live together in a certain situation. We had it and we screwed

it up. How many years are you together? 17. And how old is your child? 16. Because we basically met in Munich 17 years ago in February and we were pregnant in July. She moved to Italy as soon as she can as long as she changed her studying schedule and that was the beginning of everything I tried to give up to everything I was

before just to focus on this new situation and the family and everything, I mean we had beautiful time together I don't know, everything changed in 2019 with this moving again. I'm sure that she sees me like the one that would not do exactly what she did for our family like 20 years ago. Without understanding that maybe it's a different situation right now.

That we already achieved so many things compared to those 20 years ago, you know, that it's a different story to move, to change country, and to move into a new life. Wait, let me first go back for a moment, because you both say we had a very rich and luscious and long love story. And many, many good years.

So that means that there's a big well that you should be able to draw from. When you argue, when you quibble, when you do your bickering, when you do your statistics of who has given up more and why yours is not the same as mine, you dry up the well. And

both of you understand the difference between a conversation about the facts the cities the countries the jobs the blah blah versus what each of you really is actually asking from the other so when I listen to her dream, she says, I would like to feel that he still has that spark, that he still cares. And the way I hear it is because, and this is totally my imagination, so you have to tell me if this fits or not, is that in the name of the spark, she did amazing things for you and for the relationship. But she's not going to make those sacrifices

because of your rational comparatives between cities and careers. But if she feels your love, your tenderness, your warmth, your kindness, your attention, your desire, the way that she has known it, she could consider huge changes as she has. Do you understand that? Yes. Tell me how you understand it because this woman is not going to be convinced

by your rational analysis and you know that i mean if you don't know that then you don't know your woman no no i know that the rational part was the summary of the story and of the relationship. I don't know, at a certain point, I felt that something broke up. Like everything was a little bit unknown, let's say. I would say something that we didn't experience before.

At the beginning of last year, we started just to fight and to don't meet each other anymore. And I thought that our love was finished. But you know, love is not some external thing that just comes and goes or disappears.

Love is a verb. It's a practice. It's something that you show, that you act upon. There's got to be two people that show the same. Yes, of course. Of course, of course, both of you. I always have the feeling that she has some expectation from me

that I should do one part to make everything work. I think part of him still thinks that our love is over and that's something that breaks my heart and it's so unfair as well because you know for me it scares me when we are 40 years old he's a little bit older but then he says we had it all and we've arrived I cannot believe that you arrive at the age of 40 I have so much more to give and so much more to explore and I thought I can do it with you. And so for me, if I now, for a career, can blow it out of the water,

then I expect you to support that. And then if there will be your time again, like your time was back then, then we should be a team. Yes, but for me, this would mean to quit with my career. I'm not going to have the same job position as any other. You know what's missing?

Please. It's for you to just say, I'm scared. He cannot do that. I don't need support. Don't do that. No, no, I'm super scared. Actually well I'm super scared actually I'm fucking scared I mean the whole thing about me don't moving to Germany was that I was fucking scared I understand that I understand I'm still scared from what I'm still shocked

actually I still don't understand why I'm here in Germany with strange people around. Do you understand the difference between talking about your career and talking about your fear? Absolutely. Okay. If you talk about your fear, she can relate to you. She can perhaps help you. She can certainly better understand you. If you start your sentence with,

yes, but in my career, you are creating all the conditions for the well to dry and love to evaporate. It's been one year. And it won't go away because it went away. It's because of what you are doing. You're trampling on it. It's been one year. And it won't go away because it went away. It's because of what you are doing. You're trampling on it. It's okay. I understand you're scared. I understand you have a job that means a lot to you. I don't know in what way yet, but I get the sense of it. I understand

that you have a mother that you don't want to leave. I understand that you have never moved when you were younger, and so you feel that you are more settled in your ways now that you're in your mid-40s. And maybe she has been the flexible one from day one. But if you were able to speak from that place, I think it would make a big difference. It's okay to say, I'm really scared. I don't know how to begin to do this. And I let you down. I thought I could, but I can't.

Or I don't know how. Or I'm not ready yet. Or I don't know if I'll ever be. And I know that that's really not the way that I presented it. That's not a weakness. That's just a more vulnerable and honest way to begin the conversation in a loving way. Do you want to try and let her listen?

Okay. I'm still quite scared about all these changes. I'm still thinking that I'm not able to make it in a different country. And I'm still thinking that it scared me to move in a family because I don't find personal motivation besides being with my family that's enough to live here

Can I ask you something? Please The life that you have in Italy or the house that you bought or the job that you got, do they feel to you like you got something that you expected? Or does it feel to you like it was kind of a luck, a chance that you don't know if you could ever reproduce?

How much insecurity and how much lack of confidence is involved in the way that you're holding on to your life in Florence? I am scared that I could not make it again as nice as we did in Italy, absolutely.

Their fights are kind of ridiculous because it becomes an argument between Germany and Italy when in fact it really brings him back to some of the early fears and insecurities that he had in the differences in status, in power that they brought together to their relationship. Explain. Yeah, you know, what did we have together was more than I could have expected in my life.

Okay. But not just about the house. It was the whole situation, whole situation not to live in a certain way to be in the country with a certain space I never thought in my life that I could ever afford something like this or you know if there was no together with her I would have never done something so special, probably. And of course. Can you say that to her? Without you, I don't think I would have ever achieved what I have achieved, absolutely.

We've been great together. We've been, we've been. Yes, because right now we are stuck, we are still, but it's a completely different thing. I mean, after everything that was there. If we are great together, we can be great anywhere. I'm going to suggest to you that it's an interesting thing, because you have had the role of the one that lets him know things are possible.

Yes. And you have been a source of inspiration and a source of daring and a source of aiming higher than where he thought he would live his life. But this is a moment where before you try to lift him up, I think it would be really important that he experiences from you a certain recognition towards his fear. So you're afraid that if you acknowledge his fear, you're going to not have him yes that it becomes real right but it's not the way that feelings work they don't become

more real because they are acknowledged they actually often become softer i i understand that you are scared. I was too back then, but I think if you care... Okay, no, I have to acknowledge it. Thank you. Well done. Good move. I saw your micro-expression there. Yeah, yeah.

You felt it. I felt it. Yes, but you're so quick, both of you, to want to slow it down. You know, it's not every day that he tells you. I never thought I would live the way we've lived, and I don't trust myself enough to know that I could recreate a different version of something like that. And therefore, I don't know how to let go

of it. And he needs you, first and foremost, to just acknowledge that for what it is. Then we'll see what can be done and all of that. In the midst of the coronavirus crisis, when things become really bad in Italy, she tells him, come. And within a few hours, he's right there in Germany with her. And they realize, in fact, that he is able to work remote, that he is much more adaptive than he thought he was. And so in this sense, so far, so good.

But at the same time, it also brings back, it triggers a lot of the feelings about her leaving a year and a half ago when she uprooted herself, took their 17-year-old daughter with her, most of the furniture and left him in Italy, hoping that he would follow. And the confluence of these two moves is now creating so much friction between the two of them. Let's think about when we decide for the house because this just got to my mind right now i need to say actually i remember that you pick up the house because you said this is the one that i like and i need to move here and i will be alone so i decided for this house no matter what i'm not interested and that's it.

I don't remember it like that. I said it's the only one. Can you hold on just one moment? Hold on just one moment. Let me help you. Stuck again. Yes. But you will see that once you identify the patterns and once you agree together to dismantle the patterns a whole new vista

will arrive so one way you begin to change the pattern is that you don't talk about the houses you've talked about the houses you've talked about the cities you've talked about the countries we're gonna talk about your feelings yes my feeling was okay the right way to say that well that's not a feeling okay because you're gonna start with a description of her and you're feeling if I understand what you're telling me but my feeling was not being a part of this movie. Beautiful. Okay. So why don't you say it just like that?

Yes. If you leave away all the extra. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was not involved with the decision that was crucial. So I basically... Because when you didn't involve me, that made me feel what? Yeah, you didn't involve me,

you didn't make me feel a part of the whole plan. So when you make decisions to move or where to live and I'm not included. I feel shut out. And when I feel shut out, I probably feel something very similar to you when you ask me, do you still love me okay so when I feel apart from the decision I probably feel like you asking me if I still love you so I completely I feel a little bit out of the game.

And so I can understand how do you feel right now. Because if we compare the two situations, I have a clear idea on what's your feelings right now. So about this being in love thing, I tend to be a little bit more, to discuss a lot of the practical things. I'm a simple guy, so I'm not super open with my feeling as well. So probably didn't came up on the right moment.

But yes, I can do that i i'm feeling still sometimes a little bit outside of some decision of something so probably it's just what happened after one year and so on probably one year ago the situation was different. But right here, right now, I'm still a little bit unscrupulous of being a part of the whole thing. That was very clear. Yeah, clearer than ever before.

So I'm going to let you respond to him. And you can watch my face as a GPS oh god it's hard to respond to that because my impulse would be don't even go there take a moment

and just look at him and don't let the impulse. He blocked his impulse right now too. Okay. I understand that you felt left out. I really do. Because I know how I can be when I'ming and and moving into the direction that I have decided

um it's very it's an execution mode go go go nice very nice yeah I get it about the feeling left out I really do I really do i'm just wondering what i can do to bring him back at this point because it feels like you can continue talk about how you know that you have at times shut him out my sense is that when you are somewhat insecure you charge in fourth gear. Because that way, if you go super fast, you don't have to feel the fears, the doubts, the hesitations. You just go full force.

And when he feels insecure, he becomes obstinate. And I've never made that parallel because he maybe is not in my face with his feelings. I probably sometimes tend to forget them. I'm expecting him to understand my feelings and mirror them and give me, how can I say that, give me love, right? And because he never claims it, I'm probably not the best one at doing it, at giving love. Actually, thank you for what you said.

Take that in for a moment. Just take it in. You're right, because you always expect the same approach from the other person. So you probably would expect from me to share a little bit more of feeling like you do. And I'm expecting from you that you share a little bit more of love and passion

with simple gesture as I do, probably. I'm thinking too stupid example, but you love to have flour in the house. I'm figuring out how to buy a lot of flour at the time when we are getting rid of them and getting new one and so on. But there are some moments where there is no exchange. You don't know probably what I definitely like, like for you the flower, so you are not even able to give me what I need or what I like because I'm not so good in explaining to you. There is also this side.

I know only one thing you like getting from me. That is? You know what that is. Yeah, sex, you mean yeah because you see sex like an exchange for everything but can be a tenderness not necessarily a blowjob but even a you say a carezza or you know i realized in the last week i see the difference that i'm feeling every now and then and just coming down in the kitchen where you work to check out what you're doing, just to see you, just to share one kiss, one tenderness or anything.

You never came up in the whole week. You are the most busy between the two of us, I'm sure. But, you know, often when I come down, there is not that exchange that we could expect from what we said right now. Like you said, I am very busy. And today I wanted to cook for you instead of doing something else. So I did that without even telling you. And these are the things that you don't appreciate. No, I appreciate.

But would have been better if you would have made that call more. I would have cooked and then we were eating all together. you eat basically with your computer in front of your dish so it was a little bit strange sometimes uh i don't know let's plan what make us happy maybe because you did a great thing today to cook the lunch but you didn't have lunch with us basically because you were between two holes. You had just five minutes to eat and I prefer to eat anything with you besides you cooking to let us eat. You know what I mean?

It would have been better if we would have shared those 15 minutes of the lunch. I also can't make it right. No, no, but there is nothing wrong. Did you hear this as a criticism? Yes. But it's not.

It's not. I'm just saying I would love to have lunch with you and I would prefer to cook instead of you. If you have to spend those 15 minutes cooking for us, it's better that you make one call in those 15 minutes while I'm cooking and then you dedicate the next 15 minutes just to eat together. I'm not criticizing anything. But I'm scared to ask you to cook again, because I see all the things that you're doing right.

What the fuck? I'm just cooking. One second, one second, one second. This moment was important. If you go so fast, you'll miss this. Because you want to know if he cares. And he just told you, I would rather eat with you whatever than not be with you,

even if you cooked for me. He just gave it to you on a platter. But you only heard the piece about it would have been better if you hadn't cooked. You don't hear that what he meant with that was because I would have wanted that time with you. I think that on some level, you know that you acted in a way that was hurtful to him.

And you're scared that you're going to lose him because there's a part of you that thinks, I didn't act right. But then when he actually does tell you how much he cares, you're so convinced now that he doesn't anymore that you don't even hear it. Your assumptions interpret and they become misconceptions. It's like you hear that which you want to hear even if it's what you fear hearing, but you're not hearing what he's actually telling you. And because he thinks of himself as,

or you both think of him as the person who is not good at articulating feelings, he just articulated beautifully. And you've done it more than once, actually. You just said, I'd rather be with you than cook. And then you said, but you do so much already. That's nice. And then you both say to the other, I really appreciate what you do.

I'm not so sure that love is gone, but I think that the lovers have become invisible to the love that is. That's wow. But she just said, oh my God, that was the wow effect. Tell me more. You know, sometimes as a couple, and you would have tons of experience in this, but probably I think you get to one role you you you stay in one role or you are one role to to the other person it's like we lost of the side

because i don't want to say we universally lost but we probably lost of the side the the changes that there were in our role in the last probably year or two or three years we are we are not stuck we are so deep connected or so deep into what was at the beginning that was so strong and so huge that we didn't realize the changes that was something the way I'm imagining the beginning yeah I but but I may be completely off but was this a situation in which you adored her map so I adore her right now as well come on was was a different situation. You know, she was, we were so young.

Before you continue, I want you to stop shaking your head. He said, I adore you. And your head shakes now. Your head has no idea what he's actually feeling. But it is so on the defensive now it is so prepared not to get it is so convinced that it becomes like a confirmation bias yeah definitely and my guess is you love to be adored he adored you and he felt that he got this amazing woman that he never thought he could get like he didn't think he would get the job in the fashion like he didn't think he

would get the house on the florentine hills and that he was blessed more than he ever thought he would have and on some level wonders if it was just some fluke and it could all vanish because it wasn't really the fruit of who he is, but more the luck of life. And when he's not there adoring you, you get very scared because in your idea, it's like you are so special that just your being there should be just plenty. Oh, God. No, you're right. But that's how it is.

And you always said, let's be honest. It's the story of our life. But it worked. I agree with you. It worked as in it's the story fit for both of you. You know, for a person who loves to be adored, came a person who felt so lucky to have someone to like you to adore but i'm also very patient you know that you often grumpy and disorganized and i clean

up the mess and you know that i'm playing my part in this i'm not just here absolutely you to do things i'm doing things but probably it's showing the love where I compensate or with other things. Do you want to reassure her? Me? Yes. Yeah, she's right. I mean, she's doing a lot of things.

I'm a messy person. And absolutely. I mean, I also think that I don't do that much that she was saying before. To be honest, she didn't want me to hook the line because I'm doing that much right now is not true compared to what she does, for example. So I don't know. It doesn't stay in my... I don't know. I don't see that is for real, this thing. I think there must be something different. And I was thinking before that it's probably when we stop this perfect balance between us of being the adore one and the one that adores, because there was a breaking in the equilibrium of the daily life

because she moved to a different country. So at that point, everything came up like there was no balance anymore. And we were not strong, let's say, enough to realize it in the moment. And we start to be far from each other instead of trying to understand each other. That is the silver lining of COVID-19 is that it has forced you to be under one roof in a way that you probably otherwise wouldn't have done because you would have been fighting about it. Yes.

Yes, yeah. It is giving you the context, the structure, to actually re-examine your relationship and put it back on track. I don't know if he can. Just to add to what he said before, then he stopped adoring me and I stopped being adored. Exactly. And I went into a huge panic, is what you said.

So you finally said that you realized how I felt. And then you even said something that I thought could have never happened before but you are not sure anymore if you love me but that was correct in the moment where I say yeah and it was terrible it was terrible but what did you do at that point you came back and told me how much you love me but also there i i was shocked of this move from you and you simply expected that i was starting from zero to adore you again that was the expectation in september when this everything happened i was still shocked i was still it was still unclear for me and also this you know she expected something that I was not

able to give her in the exact moment where she was needed. What's important here is that by retelling their story through this lens of one person being adored and one person being given possibilities for life that they didn't know were possible, they understand where they lost track and where their relationship began to dysregulate. And now they're living under one roof, mandated by COVID-19 quarantine. And in fact, they're able to reset. They're able to explore a different equilibrium between the two of them.

And ironically, if there hadn't been this crisis, they probably would still be fighting over the cities. But right now, the crisis forced them together and it's giving them a unique opportunity. So you feel very taken care of by him in this moment? Yes. And why is that a bad thing to say? Because it's not permanent.

So what? So what? It's totally okay to say, I have taken care of many people and many things, and I often do, and there is something really nice for me in having you take care of me feed me yeah it just allows me just to not have to always be on and I'm enjoying it and thank you say it in your own words so I called you

when this crisis started and you came and I appreciate that and I acknowledge that I recognize that it's not easy you left everything behind on managing your life from here

to take care of us well done let her continue she has more to say to take care of us. Yep. Well done. Let her continue. She has more to say. Finally, I feel protected again. And I don't want to lose this. I feel like we are very, very different, but we've always contributed very different things for this family,

and that's why we achieved so much. I care a lot of you. I care a lot of you. It's not that if I'm not there, I care less about you. It will be easier maybe to spend here as much time as I can, as I promised during these last months. Because probably we will find a new balance between what you need

and between what I do need, actually. What do you need? I don't know what... Actually, I know what do I need. I will need more, I will need to feel a little bit more loved for what I am and not for what you expect me to be. I would love to make love with you again, of course. I would love to cuddle with you i would love this practical

kind of things that is not for the practical kind of things but for the shown of the feelings that there is behind this small gesture you know uh if i that's what i would need right now. Even if it's a little bit poor as a request, but actually everything has taken a path where I feel more, let's achieve something instead of let's leave something together. It's more, we are already thinking to the next step. You know, we are thinking to move from, for your next work, maybe to a different country because Germany sucks.

And so that's not mine probably, you know. do you feel this even stronger now yeah i'm maybe i honestly i always had a big idea of myself instead honestly i have maybe to admit that i'm a small person from a small country from a small city and i'd like that side of my life i don't know if it's mine to jump from one place to another i'd love to do it it's big it's great it's cool but actually i'm not happy in all this it's strange i don't know how to express but i let's make let's do it let's yeah do it do it let's stay here don't do anything just don't fucking do anything just leave what we are leaving that's more my feeling it's good always also to spend few afternoon at home doing nothing instead of find any activities

to do together because it's good for the couple so we find some it's hard for me let's relax a little bit it's true that this is my approach yes i would drop anything for a nice long conversation with you without your cell phone now we're getting in the nitty-gritty again of the everyday fighting but seriously i love to spend time with you just just at home, talking, cuddling. And I have the impression that now, because of this confirmation bias, we are also really over-interpreting things. Me, on my part, for sure, when you are not totally, when your eyes don't start shining or sparking when you see me,

I immediately feel not seen and not appreciated. That's true but i also have the impression you paint the pictures if you wouldn't make love anymore or hug each other but if it doesn't happen one evening then you immediately think oh my god she doesn't love me anymore she doesn't show me love so you are also over interpreting i i don't mean to make love every single evening i mean to exchange those okay i would love to make love every single evening i admit it but let's let's get over it i'm 45 i will not even make it every single evening probably you not anymore i don't know it's not it's not important but it's not about making love it's about showing the passion the love things

the shorter route to saying what you just said would be to say to him the way we just spoke now this entire time we've been here together and we've paid close attention to each other. I really enjoy that. Yes, absolutely. If you say that, you have a better chance to do it again than if you say, usually you're on your phone. Because then you each are going to tell the other how you are present and they are not. And then you write back. And now you're going to have to together every time you slip

on the banana peel and you fall right into the pattern and you do your competition for who is hurting more or is more lonely or is less more neglected by the, you're going to have to kind of have a buzzer that says, you know, and it's like an alert to both of you that the pattern is taking over. The pattern takes both of you over and it saps you of your love, creativity, ability to express yourself as beautifully as you were able to do here this awareness to to how

quick you you sink into that quicksand is what you're going to put your energy first and then you're going to notice your butts the butts you will know that the moment you've said but all you will hear is the second part. So you can just as well forget the first part, no matter how nice it was. And then the third thing is you're going to talk about what is and not what is not. Behind every criticism, there is a wish. So say what you want.

Don't say what the other person does wrong. And this distinction that you brought up between achieving and being is a beautiful distinction if she didn't achieve as much you wouldn't be able to be what you want to be but if you only achieved as much and he wasn't there to remind you that sometimes the farniente is a good moment, then you would be constantly, you'd become a very well-oiled German factory. I mean, this is almost like a cultural divide between the two of you. Also, of course.

And then you would go to Italy for vacation. But you would buy a German car. It's like, so you need each other. You need her vision and her ambition because it takes you to places that you would not have been at and that you wanted. And you need his ability to stop you and to say, sit down, let's just not do anything because it gives you balance. You balance each other. At its best, those two stances in the world need each other. They complement each other. But if you're going to use them to fight

and to try to have one of them be the winner over the other, you'll be miserable. And then when you say, you know, you're being here with me in this COVID-19 quarantine that we are in, I feel taken care of by you. And it gives me the strength to go out in the world and to do the things that I need to do. It's not just that she says, I love you for what you do. What she's saying is, I love you for what you mean to me and what you allow me to be. Many of us at this moment,

living under lockdown, will experience a kind of re-evaluation of our priorities. There is something about impending losses, disaster, and the grief that accompanies all of this that brings us quite to the essence. And some of us say, life is short, therefore there's still so much I want to do. And some of us say,

life is short, therefore I should appreciate what I have. And there is no right and wrong here. Neither of us knows which stance is the better way to be in the world. The art is to make room for the different responses that we all have, with things that are impossible for us to make sense of. Productions. Starting this month, Esther wants to speak to you on Facebook and YouTube as part of a series of conversations about the new normal, what it means for our relationships, and how we can move forward in a time of social distancing, uncertainty, and grief. To RSVP for the series, and for more information, go to estherperel.com backslash lockdown.