Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Couples Under Lockdown: Lagos, Nigeria

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

Last summer they left everything they'd built in Seattle for a chance at a very different life. He took a dream turn to expand his company and be closer to home; she gave up her nursing job to manage their girls and explore new horizons abroad. COVID-19 hits as they watch the fate of other countries, knowing if it reaches Nigeria with a population of more than 200 million people, it will be devastating. They've been offered a chance to go home, but to what? Leaving Nigeria would mean walking away from everything, but staying could be more than either signed up for. Esther speaks to the couple as Africa begins easing restrictions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And I feel like at the end of the day, I'm just kind of like, holy shit. You know, it's just nuts. None of the couples you are about to hear are ongoing clients of Esther Perel. For the purposes of maintaining their confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. They moved from the West Coast to Lagos, Nigeria. He had received a dream job where he could not just do well, but also do good.

I was approached by a vice president of the company I work for with the proposition that they wanted to start a team here in Africa. She left her career as a nurse, and their two daughters, 12 and 5, came with them to what was to be a spectacular family adventure. Basically, the trying part has been this move. This move has really challenged a lot of things. And then COVID has made it, I would say, like 20 times worse.

And everything may be even more disrupted with the upheavals and the violence and the poverty that may ensue. There is no chance the government is going to maintain law and order if they try and extend the lockdown. They showed videos of where the government is trying to distribute

food to people in need. A truck rolls up with bags of rice and hundreds of people mob the truck. No one cares about social distancing. They're literally fist fighting over bags of rice. They are in a bind, whether to stay or to go, looking for a sign, but not knowing what that sign will be. We literally packed everything from our house in Seattle into a container and had it shipped here and the evacuation plan would probably not cover more than a couple of suitcases. I mean maybe it would be okay but maybe we would leave and then someone would just walk in and

take everything in the house and there'd be no point in coming back to try and get stuff at that point. And in the midst of this they're threatened with losing their connection. I feel like we don't have the opportunity to simply live. Like it's always you in the office or me trying to remind you that life exists outside the office. Please come outside to have dinner. And that is a problem when they need to reach each other in order to know where they go from here. When we first came, I was so ready for a challenge,

ready to throw our old lives away and do this big new thing. But there's so many challenges that feel like threatening to our safety here before COVID. And now with COVID, everything is up in the air. And it's not that I resent the decision to come. I was a part of that decision and I felt included in that decision. But now we're in this new situation. It's definitely more trying in the sense of having that reverence for what we intended to do. It seems to pale sort of in the big picture. It was something that I think we both knew was going to be challenging and then it turned out to be even more challenging than what we were

expecting it to be by possibly an order of magnitude. Describe it for me please. How did you both see the move when you were making this decision together? I think we imagined the logistics of moving from one country to another with all of our belongings and everything to be a little bit smoother than it ended up being. There was a period of time where we had to be separated for, it goes a little over a month, and we weren't anticipating to have to be separate for that period of time, and that period of time coincided with a lot of things needing to happen. That was a pretty big burden, her being home with the kids while I was off in Nigeria already

and having to deal with moving things across the world. And then arriving arriving and our stuff didn't arrive for two months and so being able to get the things we needed was a little difficult figuring out all the schools and getting kids into schools that was quite a bit of work and all of this in a country that neither of us had spent any amount of time in. One of the things I would say about what changed is that I think the benefits that we believed would be here compared to the risks, I think changed a lot once we came. I didn't imagine all the ways that I would feel like we were giving up so many things. I also felt that the benefit to like what you're doing here and like what your dream is to do here.

I'm also recognized like that there's a more benefit to that too as well. There's a bigger need than I could have imagined for what you came here to do. So before COVID, I felt like we were still kind of assessing, you know, what are the things that we really lost in this move and what are the things that we gained and how important is it to us to evaluate the needs of our family and fulfill those compared to the mission that we came to accomplish, you know? Yeah.

One of the biggest things that I am very conscious of you having to give up is freedom of mobility. It's also interesting that COVID has taken that restriction and intensified it tremendously. There was the original limit on mobility, and now it's substantially increased with police blockades and things out there violence violence kidnappings and things like that that are all a result of the lockdowns that kovat have introduced it's it's like there was an expected pain i think or

or a thing that was we were knowing we were having to deal with coming here. We got here and realized, actually, that's even worse. And then COVID showed up and made it even worse. And I also acknowledge that I probably am a little bit more of a hermit-style introvert than you, so I'm a little less cabin fever going on. And I am also still working, which also affects things differently. And she stands out more. Yes. Is that a part of it too?

Yes, yes. That is a big part. Just in general, the risk of her hopping in the car even and going driving is far higher than for me. And I'm the risk taker so that means i'm the shopper and while we were told vehemently that we may not drive ourselves in this country we wanted our driver to be safe so we sent him home to quarantine and continue to pay him you know and so it up until today it had been me going out and I felt okay doing that and then now it's it's changed you

know don't feel okay doing that there was a kidnapping two weeks ago relatively close by that has us a little bit more on edge about going around and just the vibe of people you know like here people are so close to abject poverty already. So with the restrictions in place by the government, it's forced a lot of people into abject poverty. And you feel that energy when you go out. And I think there's another part of this too, which is just that there's a lot of... Personally, there's a lot of ethical considerations about race and what kind of access we have to being safe and what the implications are. I mean, I know you share that because we both have American citizenship and we could have gotten evacuated, the embassy evacuated people.

And we chose not to do that. But there's still so many feelings around that, like that we have the ability to leave and others don't um and being american is feeling more complicated right now yeah so there's just so many things that have come up say more we were we were faced with the embassy emailing us for weeks to tell us that we had the option to evacuate. The airports are closed here, so it's a little bit different than the U.S. We don't have the option of just saying, okay, we're done and we want to go. So they organized some flights. And during that time, for me, it was like an emotional crisis every night. I wasn't sleeping. I'm trying to be there

for the kids during the day and just make them feel as safe as they can. And at the same time, knowing that safety is actually in question. And at the same time, he was dealing with the fact that he was supporting his team, making the transition from going from the office to their homes, to work in their homes. And I felt like it was so hard for me because I was like spinning my wheels. I'm like, I want a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan to the backup plan. And he wasn't feeling the same way as me. You know, he just didn't feel that same sense of crisis

from that decision. There was times where I feel like the ethical considerations that I have about that I was already dealing with internally, like thinking about whether, whether it's fair or right. I don't know what the right word is there, but just that we even have this option. It's so bizarre. You know, you don't think, you don't really think about what it means to be American, especially when you're willing to like move across the world. But then you come and you see like what the reality of this COVID will do to

this country. And then we have this magical button that we can push. So that was difficult. And I felt like there was times where you would kind of insinuate that we should be so lucky to even have these options and that I should just sort of be satisfied with that. insinuate that we should be so lucky to even have these options and that I should just sort of be satisfied with that but that passed and we decided to stay and then I think this past week has been really hard again because a friend of mine who's actually from Gabon but her husband works for the British embassy she was evacuated like by mandate and I think that really shook me like if that is the right thing to do

for safety you know or I don't know it just really it's like I feel like there was a resolve after we decided to stay at least we just lifted off but I wish that we had communicated more during that time When there is a pandemic, when disaster approaches, every couple has to negotiate their strategy. How bad is it? Is it as bad as it's going to get? Will it get worse? And often they position themselves with different answers to these angst-ridden questions. When she wanted to go, she didn't dare to ask it from him

because she was concerned that he came with such a mission and such a sense of responsibility for his team. How could she do this to him? And then on the other end, she wondered what right does she have to actually leave? And what does that mean ethically

that she has this option and privilege to begin with? And then there's the fact that when you're an expat, the embassy mandates your evacuation and you don't have to deal with your own decision making. And all of this is mounting. And every time they finally settle on their decision and more people leave, they are wondering once again, have we made the right choice? Are we putting ourselves into unnecessary stress or safety?

I mean, really? And then again, I feel like we got into an argument and it was like, we have this opportunity that other people don't have, which I recognize and I am almost ashamed of it. You know, like I know that, but at the same time, who would we be hoping? And I would feel the same. I would be feeling everything that Nigeria is going through, even if we were in the U.S.

It's just been really intense. It's been really intense, and it's asked a lot of our relationship, and you have a lot of obligations to your work. Yeah. And you spend a lot of time in your office. I do. What did you feel when she was talking just now? I was experiencing my stomach clenching.

When she was talking about her angst and the things that... What did I hear? I heard you say, you know, here are a few things that i heard you tell me if that makes sense to you we are both americans i am white he's black i'm a woman he's a man he is african he came here with a mission. I support this mission completely. I too want him to succeed in doing something that has such larger impact and meaning. But in this moment, I also think about my children and my safety, and I'm scared. And my one good close friend, she just was repatriated. And am I just holding on to a mission,

but they won't be a missionary? They won't be a person holding it because the idea is bigger than the person. And then when I go to him and I try to tell him that, he answers me with statistics. I don't even know if he feels any of it. And maybe he doesn't because there's a part of him that keeps saying, I have it better than everybody else. And therefore my mission stands and I'm not going anywhere. And I don't know, she says, if I have a right to even ask

him to go anywhere because I'm supposed to be the support for him. And this partner who joined him in this major endeavor where the word challenge used to be attractive and exciting, and now it's become frightening. I know this is crazy, but the other day I heard you on a phone call with a co-worker, and you were like, how are you, and what's going on there, and I was like I mean we don't really have jealousy issues I feel but I was like I mean I had to dig deep to find what I was

feeling but I was jealous of this very simple moment where you were just saying how are you you know where I feel like I have to barge in to your office, you know, and tell you, declare, you know, something to you on your time in between calls. And then maybe we end up in an argument and maybe we don't have time to deal with it for three days because you're in your office till 4am. Maybe jealousy isn't the right feeling. What I'm hearing her describe is that she's the partner of someone who came to improve the fate of the people in Africa and so when she's asking him for personal attention it feels like how can you ask for an individual attention in light of the collective endeavor that you are embarked upon.

But then she hears him be so inquisitive about somebody else. And then she realizes that it becomes one individual yes and the other individual no. I don't deal with it well either, in complete fairness. If I don't feel like I'm being heard, I'm probably not a very pleasant person to be around. I'm not like a suffer in silence kind of person, you know? So I feel like the lesser evolved parts of my character just sort of start running the show and then it justifies you staying away from me probably you know it's a cycle that we have to

learn to get around you you still value and admire his rectitude his, his desire to do something that's bigger than him, but you also feel less supported by him than you currently need and somewhat abandoned by him while he's being attentive and able to accept the vulnerabilities of others, but he can't see yours because he needs you to be strong so that he can be on his mission. That is very accurate. Do you feel that that's accurate? Or does that resonate with you at all? Do you believe it resonates with me? Maybe that's the right question.

It does resonate with me. And so I will acknowledge that as something that I need to internalize a little bit more. I think hopefully rather than thinking about it as me focusing on my mission more than you, there are other things that can be thought of or factored in there. Like I have a calendar scheduled time to check in with people. And so when I get on a phone call and it's a calendar scheduled time to check in with people, I'm not in any way suggesting we should do that with us. But that is something that causes me to then consciously check in with folks.

It's not that I'm thinking of them more than I think about you. But I do need to do a better job of checking in with you. Yes, under normal times, if he was busy or not available, you'd hop in your car and go visit a friend and maybe commiserate with your friend about how unavailable he is. But in any case, you wouldn't be waiting alone, leaving like Penelope and hoping that at some point he will come back from the sea. So these are not normal circumstances, A, because you're in Lagos and B, because on top of it, the situation is dangerous and you are ransom material, basically.

So he doesn't want you to go out either. But that means that then he suddenly has to become the girlfriend that you're going to go visit to commit to it and that means that he needs to take on multiple roles it does it demands an adaptation and i think if you say i need phone calls scheduled with my colleagues or the members of my team, how do I create a structure that helps me to think about you? And that's perfectly fine. You know, one would wish maybe that this would come to you more spontaneously. But if it doesn't, then you schedule it. Because you see what you describe is you probably were very emotionally connected

in your family but it didn't come with a emotional check-ins on the internal life of the other person that's the more western definition yeah i think that it is more difficult for me to say that i want to be vulnerable because it feels like I don't have a right to be given my quite fortunate life situation. I think that's probably a little bit exacerbated by the fact that I typically feel a sense of imposter syndrome with regards to my success and what I've been able to achieve with my life, always like I don't actually belong in this room, that gives me both a combined sense of I shouldn't have anything to complain about, but also I have a lot to do in order to prove

that I deserve that which I have. I think the combination of those is a little complex. Thank you for this vulnerability. You just did it. I'm sure you felt it since Stanford or maybe before but it came to my awareness in the form of words in a very tragic climactic way right before we left and I feel like it was hurled at me rather than approached with that I would understand or that I maybe perhaps already understood.

Okay. Like, specifically, the feelings of not, like, I don't belong, like I'm an imposter is something that I felt probably since college. It's probably when it first hit me. I went through high school being the best at everything and got to college and it was no longer the case. Not the best at everything, but the things I liked being good at, it was easy to be the best at. And then I got to college, that was no longer the case. When I started working professionally, that was also no longer the case.

There were a lot of ridiculously smart people around me, and I always felt like I didn't belong. Is that a voice that you have sometimes that says it was good? Or does most things end up with it could have been better it wasn't good enough if only i had done xyz typically i spend time thinking about what went well and what could have gone better right right do you do the same with your marriage? Not often enough. Right. The best of you goes to work and the leftovers come home? I think it depends on the day. Tell me.

Well, particularly with COVID, but also in general, like some days I wake up and feel like I'm spending more time in family mode. I don't know. I wouldn't say marriage mode, family mode. And then going into work, and depending on how much time I spend in family mode, there's sometimes leftovers going to work. But this is so interesting.

You see, it's like you're absolutely accurate about this fault line like that. It's like you're saying to him, let me take you out of the office where your imposter voice sometimes keeps you till four o'clock in the morning so that you can experience other parts of you and connect with all of us and let us love you. And he kind of hears it. Instead of freaking arguing when she says, come to the dining room

or come to the bedroom or come sit with me, you have to go. I didn't tell her that. I didn't feed you these lines. I'm just letting him know. It's like you provide this mantle of security for each other not to go to an extreme. Her extreme of nothing will stop me. And your extreme of it's never good enough until it's good enough. But that means it's never good enough. I wish that we spent more time together and that that time was more organic, that it wasn't time that I sought after explicitly. I feel that I have a duty to explicitly lay out my needs for you um otherwise it's justified to not

meet them or and that's outside of my own nature and I tell you that a lot that I don't feel comfortable but I do really like to have things sort of flow um and I ask that of myself to give you the opportunity to meet my needs by making them bite-sized and doable to what I think is doable, you know. But I also feel in a way it makes it myself, like I'm minimizing the expectations of you as a partner. And I see you devote yourself to work and I know what you're capable of and I know that you love me and I you know and I guess I just wish that we had time and I think that's the real thing is that it's not anything grand that we need to do together because we talk and I think that's what we do together right we have a very lovely bathroom that we spend a lot of time inside of and that's usually where we connect we just sit on the ledge of our window and that's your office

that's my office and we we connect there you know for whatever reason but i wish that it didn't have to be explicit and i wish that's where you want to connect no I mean in general I wish our in our day right that's where I feel like it's okay to ask in between meetings that we just meet and have a 10 minute talk but like I also feel like we've had debates about like there have been multiple times I asked why we can't do that same thing in my office I know kind of where I am it feels like the idea that you would come and spend time in my office is something that bothers you. Yeah, I think it does. I don't quite understand that.

Because you're toggling between me and work and play. I'm going to suggest for you to not be principled about. He comes into the bathroom, You go into his play space. The fact that he's inviting you into his play space is very intimate for him. If on top of it, he can serve you

your tea, coffee, something else drinker. Like coffee. So he can turn his little shop into his little office into a coffee shop because if you can't go outside you're going to have to use imagination which is exactly what your kids are doing especially your little one any child can in a split second become the captain of a ship and the owner of a shop and the doctor running a hospital and anything you want because they know that freedom in

confinement comes through their imagination so you can go in his office but it no longer is his office it's actually his pieta or headquarter or whatever you start to rename things you give them a new meaning you play with the definitions. You ritualize them. You take them outside of the ordinary. You dress up to go to his office, you know, so that it becomes playful, so that it gives you the sensation that you went out. Of course you didn't go out, but who cares? And you can think of it as corny and weird, or you can think of it as it elevates us, you know, from the sense of I am so constrained here. There's nowhere I can go. There's not many people around me.

I'm more and more isolated. And then all I experience is my husband in his office. Instead of I'm going for a special visit to my husband, he invited me to his office instead of I'm going for a special visit to my husband he invited me to his office now you've turned the whole thing upside down you've got to go subversive on this I like the idea though I feel like the amount of time that we're speaking of is a very small time ten minutes you know ten minutes here and it's ten minutes there and it's 10 minutes there. And I think just to finish, like what I was saying is that it's that I feel like we don't have the opportunity to simply live. Like it's always

you in the office or me trying to remind you that life exists outside the office. Please come outside to have dinner. Okay. The kids are going to bed and they haven't seen you all day if you don't come out now you're not going to see them today and then as soon as the kids go to bed immediately it's back into the office and I'm laying in my room doing my things until 4 a.m and I go to sleep I'm not trying to make it sound one-sided like I know that there's so much complexity but I guess I just don't think that for me like we don't have space together we don't have time together to like that's true do things just exist like live like have life like have I don't know like a drink and a coffee and everything sounds great but it's like doesn't sound feasible I feel the statement you're making that I'm not making time is like a little

confusing. We go on bike rides as a family together. How do those occur? When you suggest, I want to bike ride together today and I can fit it in my schedule. I do. You say, Hey,

do you want to join us for swimming? I try and make it work. You're right. I don't suggest them myself. I have a thought for you. Because I hear the conversation. And when we began today, I asked you, tell me a little bit about the history of this relationship.

And you started with the seed at the bar. And you told me she was reading a book, and I decided I'm going to get this woman's attention. And this woman just told you that it's very hard for her. That doesn't justify it. That doesn't say it's right or wrong. It's just the way she experiences it. And I don't know enough about her whole history to know why it is troubling to her to have to ask for attention. She likes to receive it. She likes to resist it. And she

likes when you work through her resistance. It's exactly how you seduced her on day one. This is what we are talking about. Of course, when she suggests, let's go for a bike, you go for a bike and you enjoy the bike ride. This is not an issue. But what she's coming back with is, it happened because I suggested, I asked, and I enjoy when you'd say yes, but there's something about wanting to be slightly showered, slightly adored, slightly seduced, slightly you put your will of fire on me, the way that when you want something, you go for it. And what she's telling you is she misses that guy and she also misses that woman. A lot of the time I talk about how I think the word that usually gets misused here is I don't feel sane, I don't feel supported. That's not actually a way to describe what I'm talking about. But I think a better way to articulate it is to point out that you talk about me working a lot.

I haven't worked on the weekend in the past three weekends. And I don't think you've noticed. Oh, I've very much noticed. And I appreciated it. I have not worked on those weekends. And that comes at a huge cost and I don't feel like that is it's not that I don't think you notice it it's that if I were to take an entire weekend off and not work and then Monday were to roll around and by noon Monday I had not gone back to work and then by noon Tuesday I had

still not done any work. I don't feel like at any point you would ask me the question of, hey shouldn't you be working or weren't you behind on something and you took some time off should you get back to that thing you were doing? Growing up... Wait, what do you think my response would be to that it's my responsibility to know about when i have to work and then to go to work no to communicate to me what you need yes i have to go outside of myself and ask for things i need but so yeah and then we skip to the next part where i say assuming i have communicated what i need but you can't assume that you can't skip the next no it's not from experience no you can't i've asked you so many i have communicated so let me repeat the statement i'm making that

even if i have communicated to you that i have a busy work schedule or that i haven't so like when i say things like work is not going well, and then I tell you about a document I'm supposed to write for work that people are getting frustrated that I'm not writing, and then I tell you the story of how I failed so miserably at getting that document written that someone else had to do it for me because I just never got it done. Like that's a pretty serious thing. And not only

did I not feel like from you, I got the partner who would help me be able to get that done. I didn't feel like you cared at all about that failure. Like there was no commiseration of any kind. And like in general, general it feels like and maybe it's the way it comes across of me I'm not trying to accuse or blame or say that it's because I'm not working that that's not happening that's just something that happened that really sucks and I would like to feel like there's a partnership in the sense that that's something that has to happen it's not something where i have like yes i have a lot of work and i should try and make time for the family but if i'm not making my deadlines i feel like we should be together i'm trying to figure out how we

work around that as opposed to tell me what you need what would you have liked to hear her say what's one thing she could have said? I'm sorry that sucks. Just that. You did it. Do you want to try? Me? It's getting very hard for me to be honest.

But I think I hear you. It's not hard. No, it's not. I know. It's not that it needs a justification. I need to actually just do it. And I will. Just give me one second to really get there.

I am very sorry. that Spain was a mess and that things were going poorly for you professionally. And believe it or not, I do really care. Like I care so very much when you're feeling stressed or when you're feeling anything about, any negative things really in the world usually about work and at the same time I want good things for you and I want you to feel good it's hard for me not to shirk the negativity that you present me with I don't always know when to try to make you feel better or try to just say,

I'm really sorry that it sucks. Do you people use hugs? Do you like to give them to? I like hugs so much. You see, I know this is weird. I'm on screen, you're on screen, et cetera. But this is a moment where I imagine a hug. What you just did now was interrupt a destructive pattern.

It started by you asking for something. Just tell me, I know it sucks and not have a whole discussion with me about work or the project or this or that just talk about me and then it started with you instead of arguing with it which would have been your inclination to just say it, even though it feels a little artificial, but you try to emphasize. And as you said it, the experience followed. And then it comes with a moment of repair that gets punctuated with the hug,

because after that there's not much left to say. We sit in silence. We feel calmer. We feel closer. And we stop the useless chatter. I think what happens between the two of you is that that moment does not occur enough. You know, in a relationship, you connect, you disconnect, and then you reconnect.

But you don't have the reconnect. So the conversation goes over and over and it's repeat. And it's each of you wants the other person to just be able to say, I get it. It sucks. It's hard. It's sad. It's lonely. You don't have to solve anything. You just acknowledge the experience of the other.

You're strong people. You will each figure it out. Come here. Let me give you a hug and I think that would heal so many things like sometimes I think we're arguing the point that we're both fearful that our needs are not going to be met as individuals we have children and it can feel like at the end of the day, like we divide and conquer, you know, and then it can just feel like we're abandoning each other. But in the reality, we're both here fighting so hard for the same thing.

And I feel like sometimes we just miss that opportunity to appreciate that. He's nodding behind you. Do you see? Yeah. And you cannot have one more conversation about the 4 o'clock or the work or the amount of hours or the this or that, and you need to start noticing. When he actually doesn't work, you have to tell him, I really enjoyed spending the day with you.

You don't have to say anything about I appreciate you not working. You have to begin to redress the negative spin that is entering your mutual perceptions. Because then his is going to be, no matter what I do, it's not enough, which already he lives with as is. It's not a difficult train to hop on. And you're going to live with the feeling of rejection. I once was important, I am no more. And that, I think, is a story that has more resonance in your life than just with him. So we need to become very talented, very adept, that's the word I'm looking for at closing the loop and having those rituals of repair

and that doesn't mean we need to talk about what just happened absolutely cut it short, what do you need and you what do you need come here I can do that

I can definitely do that can you tell me what is the story behind the rejection I don't know I suppose in other ways not with him and not with men really I've spent a lot of my life trying to not evade

but just really genuinely look at what that means to feel that way. Because my mom left when I was eight and it was disruptive and, you know, I didn't have a dad and everybody I loved was dismantled. And it's not lost on me, you know, and it's something I've worked very hard to heal. Where did she go? She just was the, you know, she was a single mom of seven kids and she had to breathe away from us. She moved to Arizona.

And your sisters took care of you or you all were dispatched in different homes? No, most of them were old enough. My brother went to live with my dad who surfaced for that period of time and he and I, my brother and I were very close. So I didn't see him for a long time and I moved from just like siblings

to family friends to Alaska then when I was 16. So, yeah. Yeah, I was quite left to my own devices, somewhat neglected and feeling deeply abandoned. She makes such a point of not wanting to be the pursuer, not being the beggar of his affections. And that story definitely precedes COVID-19, precedes Nigeria, and I am pretty sure precedes ever meeting him. And that's why I need to go and explore what is the roots of her feeling so rejected by him and why when he was the pursuer that became the glue that brought them together and sometimes you want to tell him I'm having a mom moment I don't want to tell him, I'm having a mom moment. I don't want to feel like that, but that's how it takes over.

There's things that I work, you know, there's things that I have to work very hard on. Can I ask you another question? Yes. When you moved to Nigeria, did it evoke some of the many moves that you've had in your life where every time you would move, you would think it would be better? I think it felt more genuine because it didn't feel like that. I think this felt like something that reflected like my personal idea of where I would be at 34 and with the person I wanted to be doing that with. And I think it was more concerted than perhaps all the other moves that felt more routine and natural because of the chaos. But it's definitely been something that I've had to be very cognizant of.

It does bring up a lot of just moving. And I know that with COVID and the need for things to feel threatening of my personal space, it brings a lot of that up. And I don't exactly know how to communicate that to him. You're doing it right now. So look at him and keep talking. I don't think he knows that. I don't think you've connected the dots yourself.

When things feel threatening, it makes this sort of chaos that feels outside of myself. And it's difficult for me to feel grounded. And the only thing I know what to do is just to plan. So right now, my plan feels like it's involving 200 million people in Nigeria. And I do. I feel like when I go to the store, you know, I make a plan for every person I might run into and what I can do to involve them or help them or educate or engage with them or feel what they're feeling. And it's just so much like when I come home just from

like going to the store like I just feel like I felt so many things and when our home feels like it's like right now like we don't know if we moved where would we go it's such a huge unknown it triggers things for me that are like founded in something that I feel like isn't yours to deal with because it was circumstance and it's not something I would expect you to understand but I have this need to organize my thoughts in a way that make it feel safer and I think just saying this sucks is also applicable you know doesn't have to be a plan and sometimes I kind of need someone else to remind me of that I feel bad saying that to you I don't know

I just don't feel like it's yours I feel like it's mine It's ours It so makes sense It makes sense that when you've moved so often and you didn't know what was going to happen at the next station in the next home that a you became a planner and B

you became sometimes somebody who dares what he considers isn't careful enough because it was a way of taming your fears and it makes sense that he can say it sucks or he can say exactly what he said this is ours I'm here with you I this time you don't have to do it alone in many ways you've often been in a foreign place. You may not have lived in Africa, but you have been in many foreign places. And you have often been the outsider. And you have often been the one who doesn't belong.

You know, sometimes I spend too much time trying to explain a logical solution to a problem. I myself need to also say, that sucks. And in particular, when it comes to some of these things, I need to be a little bit more aware of how they impact you. Because I absolutely want to be there for you. I want you to feel like I actually understand. I can't truly understand what you're going through because I didn't have the same experience, but I feel like I should at least be able to understand that this has that type of impact on you

and be there and be more supportive than I have been, especially in light of how COVID has affected me. Tell him what you need from him, not what he needs to do. Or just tell him how you feel and he'll know what to do he just did it beautifully every time today I guess I need you to recognize

when I'm sort of spiraling like I think you see when I'm balanced and when I'm not more you know when I'm less balanced you know what that looks like and maybe when you see that sometimes I feel like it provides justification for you to stay away from me and that's not a healthy place for me to exist with someone but if maybe we can learn to recognize what those symptoms are really getting at and just call me on it like you do with other things you know like it is going into a burning

building like don't don't go in there you know like you're spiraling but what is it that's going on does he have to talk or does he have to hold you i think holding me would be my preferred method of communication at that time yeah yeah i don't think you should talk in those moments just as he did now and it will also help you not reason with her. Because your verbal language veers on the rational logical, but your physical language is very tender. So that's another language you have. It is.

Throughout the session, I asked myself, to stay or to go? And it is clearly not my place as the therapist, and certainly someone who just met them for one session, to tell them my opinion. But every time I experienced their resolution, I felt that the fear was being transferred onto me. And that's the fear that would say,

leave, leave even for some time so that you can actually come back. You're not safe. But who am I to say? Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. She's also the host of the podcast How's Work? Where Should We Begin will be back with a brand new season on Spotify beginning June 18th. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions.