Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Does Growing Up Mean Growing Apart?

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

They grew up together and now run a production company. They are contending with the growing pains of transitioning from best friends to coworkers and the challenges of running, essentially, a family business. Esther helps them find the complementarity in their roles and see their story as growing and developing even in the face of challenges. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We grew up in a small town and have been friends since we were like two years old. Us working together and having this bond from kids and we've had these amazing successes and these amazing experiences and to me that's like this You love the story. I love the story and I'm really proud of it and it kind of breaks my heart when it's not working. How's Work is an unscripted, one-time counseling session focused on work. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names, employers, and other identifiable characteristics have been removed.

But their voices and their stories are real. Your group photos are likely missing someone important. You! With Admi on the new Google Pixel 9 Pro, never rely on a stranger again. Add yourself to any group photo through the magic of AI. Get yours with TELUS at telus.com slash pixel9pro. So part of it is defining what this idea of like creative utopia might even be. I think one of our issues is we're all a little bit different and trying to find alignment in our differences

because I feel like our perspectives are a little bit jammed. Hold on. Are we able to get up and move? We can all get up? Okay. So, come a second. We're in California. Sunny California. And we're meeting

in an entirely new place where I meet these three young men who are co-founders of a production company. But they began a long time ago, pretty much when they met in preschool, and they've been playing and creating and working together ever since. They present with some beautiful fantasies

as if they're still in the treehouse. But that's probably not why they came to see me. So I just was thinking when you talked about we all have our perspective. If I asked you, you start, to create a sculpture of how you envision your dynamic at this moment, how would you set it up? Set them up and then insert yourself in it too. Okay, a human sculpture. Yes.

Interesting. I mean, it feels like one of us needs to be holding someone up like a pyramid. Maybe it's like Power Rangers. I don't know. Put your arms up. Okay. Something like that. Yeah.

And what would you name this sculpture? All for one and one for all. So everybody is holding with the same force. Yeah. So it's similarity emphasized, differences minimized. Yeah.

What I see in the way you set it up is perfect harmony with very little differentiation. So if you want everybody's strength, then it requires differentiation. Yeah. And individuality. And in the way you made your sculpture, there is none.

Great point. I could have asked each one to describe to me the threesome or the triad or the relationship, the way they see it. But it is much more concrete and much more representational to ask people to create a sculpture of the relationship. You see the dynamic, you see the interactions between the parts, and you see the themes, what they aspire to, what they're hiding, and what they're challenged by.

And so I was in a new place. I was finally seeing people in person and I thought, let's do certain things that I like to do when I have buddies to work with. All right, how would you set it up? I think I'm drawn to that metaphor that we're all connected. So maybe it can be kind of like a triangle. So you have a similar equal triangle. Yeah, I think we definitely are built on a lot of equality.

To your point, it has definitely limited us. Yes. Because it's not just that it's equal, it's that it demands similarity. And if you continuously put the focus on similarity and sameness, you begin to experience differences as trouble, problems, tensions, lack of flow, lack of harmony, threatening, scary. Yeah. The emphasis on the word similar struck me very early.

It wasn't just that they had similar views, they had similar representations in the sculptures of their dynamic and their relationships, but they also had similar clothes on. They could have been straight out of a band. Do you have a different one? No. You're part of the same fantasy? No. No, not really.

Good. Let's no, not really. All right. I'm kind of holding you down a little bit, but then also trying to do this. But then you're also holding me down a little bit. Something like that. And say what I feel like we're all sort of looking for moments to shine and to be appreciated and we're all in it together but all holding each other down at the same time I think there's a comfort in the unity but there's also a feeling almost of invisibility at the same time. Like when,

when you asked like, what do we want to get out of this? I think the first thing that came to mind for me is that we have this really deep trust, but in a very brotherly way, like I trust these guys. If shit hits the fan, they're going to be there. It's like the reverse of a regular work relationship where you don't necessarily deeply trust the

people you're working with, but you trust them with all the little things that sort of happen on the surface of that relationship. And I think we sort of don't trust each other with that. Like don't trust what the other person might say to a client, how they might conduct themselves, what their vision may mean for our company. And so I think we're all looking to feel trusted. And that's why I feel like we're like reaching out, but the other people are sort of like also, it's like both support and a weight at the same time.

What do you think of this narrative? Yeah, I mean already the thought of just realizing like we hold each other down by shooting for pure equality, that's a perspective shift. So there's a number of different directions we can take. I was thinking, we can start exactly where we are right here. And then would mean to start with me almost saying, so what's the most challenging thing we need to address? And we start from there rather than going back. There is, what is the story of the three of you? Because I think that you love the story

and you're a little bit weighted down by the story. And then there is breaking some of the scaffolding, changing some of the scaffolding, the way you've set it up, which at this point is a little bit too similar to the three friends you were in middle school. And you're in your mid-30s and you're each wanting the connections that you have, the depth of the relationship that you have, but you also want to be able to live your own lives.

And your idea that we are more brothers, as much brothers as we are friends, or that we have a relationship that is really like family. And so this is family business. And you don't think of it like this, but you have so this is family business. And you don't think of it like this, but you have the challenges of family business. Yeah. And I think that it's a useful metaphor.

You are three best friends, and you run a family business. That's good. No, I've never thought of it like that but it's true we're definitely more like that than anything else yeah we have similar trust and we have similar and if something bad happens in the shop you still have to straddle continuously love and work yeah so do we start with the here and now do we want to go backwards first? I can say I feel strongly. I think it's important to go backwards.

Wow. For sure. I think... You feel like you carry dead weight? I know we carry dead weight. Okay. Right off the bat, when he emphasizes, I want to talk about the past and our story and our history, I inserted, you mean, the dead weight of the history,

so that it created a more specific lens of what we were going to be focusing on as we look to the past. And it is the unaddressed issues that seem to have piled up and that now make change so fraught. The film company that we have now, when we began, it was sort of this, like, Neverland. And it did kind of turn into, like... Creative utopia. So, yeah, for a minute, it was kind of like in Pinocchio, when they, like, go to the bad kids island. And all of a sudden, everything starts to turn a little bit sour. When you mentioned, like, middle school school it does feel like middle school type things

pop up and we sort of like go down these long roads of disagreement and then when we finally get to the end of it we're like oh like really that's that's sort of where we were at that's what we were this is the problem that we're actually arguing about. So go back a sec. Give me the basics. You know each other? We've known each other since we were children. We grew up in a small town together and have been friends since we were like two years old. Went through all of school together and we're fairly inseparable. We used to build ski parks in the woods. We used to skate. We basically learned everything together and did everything together and started to see the strength that we had collectively. Have you always just been the triad or have there been other people that could come in or was there a strong gate around you? No, I wouldn't say a strong gate. I think we've

actually been really, I think one of the things that's always excited us is that we bring in a lot of other people. So you have a permeable boundary around you. Yeah. I think we also feel a sense of pride in being like ringleaders. You know, we lead adventures and people want to come along with whatever we're sort of cooking up. And I think that's an energy that I feel like we're sort of losing it. It feels like things become really insular. And all of a sudden, it's just us all arguing with each other. And we do put up these fences that keep other people from really getting involved with us.

Chiming, I'm just getting a tiny bit of the story. If you had to describe each of you, what would you say? Like imagine a cartoon with a balloon above your head and it says a descriptive for each one of you. What would it say? You can help yeah so for like my friend here the gentleman who just laughed um he is a person who builds community around him for the goal of accomplishing a thing and often those things are a way for a community to give back to itself, to receive,

to protect something. His projects and his concepts are around sharing and encouraging the uniqueness of everyone in the group to come out no matter how it'll be. He'll turn a project of like, let's go clear out this bramble bush from my property, which is normally a pretty shitty job, but it's pretty fun if we all do it together. And everyone suddenly is like having a party, doing what might be kind of like mundane work. And at the end of it, it's like, oh, wow,

see, look what we've just done. See how clean this is. Like we've done all this, you know, and this is like a very small kind of a thing, but it's just like a way he'll make sure everyone feels like they're really part of this fun endeavor even if the endeavor is weeding a garden like it's a beautiful thing to kind of have have action when he is the community builder and the gatherer and the person who thinks about the people more than the task. Yeah.

How does that play out in the triad here? Well, it plays out in a few ways, because I'm sure in some ways we will look at things and be like, well, if I was leading, I'd do it this way or that way. But we're like, but we're not leading. So let's instead support what he's doing. And then we'll be there and then look for what's falling through the net. My perspective is the best way to strengthen his vision and his goals will be to just

be a backstop. Try to sort of support the vision, not necessarily to go and step out as my own. But now you're talking about you. But now you're talking about you. But now I'm talking about myself. So I want to stay for a moment because you describe gatherer, community builder. And what questions that brings for me is people person. People person, how does that translate? Are you the one who experiences a sense of responsibility for you all getting along? Do you carry more of that responsibility or anxiety?

How does that affect the way you experience conflict? Since you want people to get along, that's the set of questions that accompany this. None of this is problematic. It's just things go together. We live in clusters of characteristics, of aspects of ourselves. So what would you say? Presuming that this is a good bubble to put above your head. Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly fair and accurate. And I enjoy bringing people together, for sure. And I think that does relate to our projects, and it relates to things that we might do sort of personally together also.

And you're asking about how I bring that into our relationship. And I think I'm not sure whether it's because I'm just a very little bit older, but my brother was their age. And I think also I have this sort of almost like an older brother. We're all older brothers. But in our relationship, I definitely think of myself sometimes as... You mean you're all older brothers but in our relationship I definitely think of myself sometimes as all first born it's yes important yeah we're all first born um and you all come from what kind of families all quite harmonious families we all of our parents are together and we grew up in a very small town. And yeah, I think I definitely think of our relationship as, I feel like sometimes I have sort of older brother responsibility for it.

Often I try to mediate or ease tension or try to find solutions. What's the balloon above his head? C is an incredibly creative, I want to say like entertainer. I think of you as someone who can talk to anyone, who really can deeply relate to people very quickly, but also has a very personal side to him that is sometimes tough to relate to the world. Want to edit it? Me? No, I think that's pretty good. Yeah.

I think I definitely struggle feeling misunderstood in our dynamic sometimes, which is actually nice feeling like that statement is pretty close to, you know, who I see myself as. And I think sometimes I don't know if that feeling is just my own inner dialogue or if that is actually how it is in our, in our group. So your statement would be, it is very important for me to feel understood.

Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And it feels very important for me to make sure that the people around me get along. And it's very important for me. What would you say? Well, myself? Oh, god.

It's very important for me to stand out. Am I being recognized? First of all, this wanting to stand out, and it really needs to be understood in context. And the context is that these three young children from small town who were the ringleaders have had tremendous pressure to continuously harmonize, to neutralize all tensions, to close the gaps, to minimize the distance. And as a result, to stand out takes on a whole new meaning because it's the disruption of the harmony. And that could lead to fracture

which they all would rather not see happen. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Your group photos are likely missing someone important. You. With Admi on the new Google Pixel 9 Pro, never rely on a stranger again. Add yourself to any group photo through the magic of AI.

Get yours with TELUS at telus.com slash pixel9pro. Yeah, well, you know how I said, like, I'll be the backstop. That action has caused me to continually find myself in a place where I feel like, because I don't know who I am anymore. And by that, I just mean all I really know how to do is any task that needs to get done. But when you are the backstop, would you call it? Yeah, like a backstop. I need everything to be done so that nothing falls through the cracks, so that nothing fails.

You experience it as, I can't trust these guys? No, no. Or somebody has got to look for every detail. Someone's got to do it. And so I am constantly making sure that I don't fail, meaning we don't fail. Or we don't fail, meaning I don't fail. I do attribute my own personal failure as a failure of the group. So I make sure that I do not fail.

And how does that work for you, this job? Well. First of all, do they think you should be doing this job is this you've just appointed yourself so no i fell into it by nature um because i'm i was the one who went to film school so i had the technical knowledge about a lot of it i also had the most experience as far as like editing concerned, camera things. We're also in a place right now where the last five years of our lives were to get this one project done. And it was very difficult, and it felt like everything was against us.

And to get this project done, like, oh, the edit needs to be doctored, or this guy fell through whatever. Okay, I'm going to do it. And it built up. I'm going to do it. And like, it, it built up like, I'm going to put this way, everything we would do would be for the collective good to get this project done. And that project meant the viability of our company. That project meant like, if we don't do this project, like, what are we doing? Making, like making films? Why are we even doing this? We can't get this one thing done. Granted, it was not only a marathon, but it was like climbing a mountain with no supplies. It was

fucking crazy. So… Are you pleased with the outcome? Yeah, I'm pleased with it because there's… Besides the fact that it's done. Well, we made something that was really difficult to make and that achievement I'll always feel proud about because… Has it been released yeah we just released it um so now you are in a transition where you have focused together on

one centralizing project and now you are in a in a new phase where each of you may want to go and do your own things sort of and this is where one of the reasons why we're here is to figure out about how do we enable each other to do this and support each other to do this. It's like that statue. Really what it should have been is here, go like this. Go like this. Okay, and I'm like this.

So it's three. You can't beat us. So it's three different. Three different symbols and we've got it covered so you can't get past us what is it it's rock paper scissors oh yeah that's right that's right so like in that sense that's how i sort of feel about it knowing that each one of us has a unique strength that you know like because as a little kid, I envisioned us as superheroes. And that's like where most of my decisions come from. And that's why I tell the stories I want to tell. And that's definitely why I feel like us as a group is far stronger when it comes towards.

All right. So what is the transitional question? You're in a developmental transition. You've just worked for five years on a unifying project you've given it everything you had you're at the same time relieved proud and exhausted something like that all right so what is the transitional question this is a fairly vague question but what does success look like one of the things that I struggle with is that perspective, like needing to shine and needing to be sort of like a superhero.

I feel like it puts the feeling of success in such a distant place that's so hard to reach that makes anything short of it feel like a failure. And the feeling of needing to be the best or outstanding makes it hard to feel content. And he likes to be outstanding. Yeah. And that makes you... I don't think that it is not wanting to be outstanding

or not wanting him to be outstanding. But I think that where it's outstanding or nothing leaves very little room to feel progress or small successes or just to feel good. And you've said that to him? Yeah, I have. So at its best, this distinction between always trying to get it a little bit better versus appreciating that this is good and good enough and maybe it doesn't always have to get to the best as you see it.

Those two stances in life and in a business can be very complementary. You understand? These are relative positions. There is nothing more true about his than about yours. They both carry truth and wisdom, but they become complementarity when co-founders are able to see the strength of that. The thing we've really been trying to find

is where is that middle ground? There is no middle ground. It's not a middle ground. It's a tension that becomes part of what keeps the relationship alive. He pulls towards one thing, you pull toward the other, and then sometimes he relinquishes and sometimes you go further. And each of you is helping the other one with the side of them that they practice the least. I think where it gets really challenging,

and this is a point that we have a lot of difficulty with, I personally think some projects just are always meant to be what they're going to be and they don't necessarily need to be great or groundbreaking and we had this conversation and s was like yeah you know secretly i know that it's not meant to be but i need to tell myself that to stay excited about it and i think it was an important turning point like Like, I really understood what he was looking for. He was looking for that fire to be excited about it.

But in myself, I struggled to, I guess, connect the dots between an excitement that I felt like we weren't going to reach, which sounds really cynical. But I think it's something that we all secretly know about certain things. Tell me if this resonates for you. Complementarity doesn't work when you're trying to make him think like you. Totally. Complementarity works when he knows that he can continue to think the way he does because you're thinking the way you do. Yeah. The only reason he doesn't have to think about what you're thinking about is because you're doing it. Yeah.

And the only reason you don't have to be all excited and pushing till the last motion is because he's doing it for you. Yeah, absolutely. It's interdependent parts complementarity, but the complementarity works when that is acknowledged. Yeah. Does that make sense? Totally. Yeah. I wonder, like knowing when to trust one another in that, knowing, because this pertains mostly, I would say, to like the brainstorm side of things when we're sitting down and talking about something and the parameters don't matter because for me parameters don't matter never mattered whatever we'll figure it out although I can only do that when I'm talking with you guys because I sometimes will know that you'll say wait

no it's not necessarily a thing but but... That's a great example. But... You can dissolve all the norms and all the rules and all the parameters because you've got somebody next to you who will make sure that the ones that really matter are maintained. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that's it. Maybe that's just the thing.

That's complementarity. I introduced the concept of complementarity I see complementarity as one of the most important structural elements of relational systems between two people on a team in a company and I'm going to come back to this over and over and each time they'll internalize it a little bit more and they'll begin to apply it to their own situation.

Sometimes I don't know entirely how to react to something because this same project included that same dynamic because there was a moment where you were really offended by me so what well i couldn't resist no i mean it's like so what what i'm saying is is tension allowed totally okay so yeah no tension that is well tension hasn't been allowed before. I'm actually not sure. Tension is a thing back when we were, like, up until about a month ago, we were in a place where we couldn't really let each other have tension because it would rock the boat. And, like, three years ago, I would just fly off the handle in an instant.

And it was partially because I'd been doing so much work on my own sense of self. I felt like they weren't understanding that or hadn't been doing their own or so like I felt like I was putting in all the effort to learn how to communicate with them and they weren't putting in any effort to even listen to me and like there were just so many dynamics like we ended up having to go to a marriage like we went to a marriage counselor to deal with this stuff that we had really weren't able to do by ourselves and you guys can tell me if you're how you feel tension is what and to upset each other to offend disagree openly to offend to hurt to offend is to hurt yeah because that brings us farther away from this goal of finding some creative harmony. You wanted to say something.

I think, you know, between the three of us, we all have a decent amount of ego. And I think with our history, when someone says, oh, you know, that edit actually is lacking something, or oh, you know, why did you do something this way? It's not just that statement. And it's hard sometimes for us to take that criticism objectively. Meaning that you personalize it?

That it becomes almost an insult rather than a suggestion. We know we all love each other, but I think that... And finish the sentence, we know it and but... Well, and maybe because of that, our criticism stings a little more than anybody else's. And I can't put my finger on exactly where that came from. I know why it is. It's because I have a worry.

You don't know why. I don't know why. I have a thought. I think when you have a family dynamic is there's all these other issues going on. And it's very easy for you to tie up one frustration you have with the conversation that needs to be had about something that is completely different, but then when I get the offhanded comment about the thing, now it suddenly spills in and emotion is everywhere. Makes sense. I just want to check if this makes sense to all of you.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So let's take a break. And then we'll pick up. Cool. So it's always interesting to find out what people say when I'm out of the room. And if there was something that they were actually holding back on, or if there was something that they needed to rectify on the spot. Like, it's hard not to be frustrated when you say that you were doing all this self-work and nobody was trying to hear your perspective.

It's like kind of the exact opposite of what happened. Okay, so like when I said that, I know everyone had been doing it, but when I had been doing it, this was before we started talking about that sort of stuff. I don't know. Personally, I feel like I spent a ton of energy trying to even bring us all to a communicative seat at the table. And brought up the whole idea of even seeing a therapist together in the first place and it's just like you you did it's a touch point for me because it feels like a revisionist history where all the effort i put in is removed from it and awarded to you and put on your shoulders and you do everything yeah i'm sorry for that that was not no the yeah um yeah feel me in um um i was i was pretty frustrated by something in the first half

of the session basically and we were just kind of passing it out when s said that he felt like he was doing all this self-work and nobody was listening or nobody was putting in an effort to try and understand him. I felt kind of minimized in that statement because I didn't really feel like that was all that accurate. For me, I feel like we all have very different communication styles and we would end up in these situations in our studio where everyone was sort of sitting in separate corners just fuming and i i i need to hash it out and i think i would look around the room and I would see T continuing to work as if nothing was going on at all. S would be internalizing everything and tearing himself apart, but being completely silent

and forcing himself to move along. And I would be kind of like sitting somewhere in the middle and just feeling like everything's falling apart. And I felt like I put so much effort into trying to even open a corridor for communication in like a healthy way between all of us. and when I hear like I'm the only one putting in this work I kind of respond to it like are you kidding me like I feel like I have been carrying the torch of we need to communicate better the whole time and when it feels like it's not even remembered it just just makes me feel like, back to the very beginning, it makes me feel very misunderstood. I think those things just make me feel like, I don't know, really lost.

And I've talked to the US before where I'm like, I feel like I'm putting in all these different forms of work and nobody sees it. Nobody? I feel like I'm putting in all these different forms of work and nobody sees it. Nobody? Like, in our group. Neither of them? Sometimes.

I'm going to let you. Yeah, I mean, I think that's totally reasonable. I think of all of us, C is the most visionary and... You can talk to him. Okay, cool. I think you have the best moral compass or best compass for our company. But I definitely recognize that at times when there are lots of to-do list items, how we might prioritize those and maybe recognize each other for those more than the bigger contributions. This moment in the conversation for me is about unique vulnerabilities. These are experiences.

These are not facts. And part of what is confusing in the way that you talk is that you sometimes talk fact when you're actually talking feeling, experience. His is, my contributions are not valued. What I bring is not seen as important. His is, I have to pick up the slack for everyone. What would you say is yours? Like I'm required to be the leader or something. I have to be the mature one.

I have to be the older one. Or like responsible. Responsible one. So when you say, I feel that, what you really are describing is an experience. When he says, I do everything, it's not a fact. It's how he feels in the moment. He feels overwhelmed. He feels like he's got to step in. And by the way, your three positions are positions of responsibility.

Just so you know, there's variations on the same thing. I make sure that the conversation gets going. I make sure that we stay connected to the same theme. I make sure that the conversation gets going. I make sure that we stay connected to the bigger picture. You are like, I make sure that nothing falls through the cracks. These are all statements of responsibility. But they're experiences. They're not facts.

Do you know the difference? Yes. Should we be talking about them in different ways? It helps when you say my experiences. Or how I, you know, the way this lands on me, whatever the language. But it helps a little bit in the language. When you go and you say I do everything he instantly and you put it like truth then his default mode is therefore what I bring is not important if you make yourself so important it lessens his importance so it helps to translate.

Yeah. Yeah. I get that. I want to be clear. There are facts. Facts exist and they are part of relationships, of companies, of dynamics. But in this particular moment, what stands out is the pseudo-factual talk. It's the fact that people are presenting their subjective experience as an objective truth. And that needs to be parsed out. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors,

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use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. Have you ever had a big fight amongst the three of you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Lots.

And they've been friendship related or work related? Well, the things, they're the same thing. Yeah, they're so co-mingled. I don't feel like we really have boundaries between work and our friendships. I don't feel like we really have boundaries between work and our friendships. I don't think we have any tools in our tool belt to separate the two in a way that I think hurts our friendship. And probably hurts our work relationship because I think we bring a lot from one to the other. Give me an example. You know, we'll have like a brainstorm and you can sense that it's falling off the rails because one person is feeling something

that's been dug up from the past somewhere. And depending on the conversation, you know, you don't know which person is going to be and what thing it is, but it ends up there and it's really hard. So somebody says, I want to work on project X and that would bring up things from the past? It's very similar dynamics to what we've already talked about.

S will feel like we're talking about an idea that's going to bury him in that sort of like all the bullshits running through him kind of role or i might end up in a spot where i feel like i don't see where i fit in in value to this thing and you know or t might feel like he's just being put in this box of i'm the responsible one and i don't have creative skin in this this project and I think We all recognize the value in each other that we bring but somehow that's not translating into our own personal feelings So this is not the past

But that and that's a thing that's I think hard for us to break through maybe I think it feels like it's the past because it feels like oh this is always where I've been in this dynamic or something but it's very much in the present too yeah of course so you start to have a conversation each of you with your default settings

the person left the default settings remained yeah that's very much the fact that it's been there before and you've known it the person left the default settings remained. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's very much the fact that it's been there before and you've known it, but it's not like something that, I get it, it feels like it's from the past because it's familiar and known,

but what gets triggered is that you each slide into your default settings. And so those are having a conversation with each other. And the other parts of you are kind of going in bystander mode. And you're watching, and that's what makes them the past, your younger selves, your childhood wounds, your early challenges. You're watching them having an argument with each other and you're staying outside. And part of what I'm imagining is how about we invite some

of your adult parts into the conversation too? Because you basically leave it up to those little ones, those more fragile ones, those more wounded ones, those more, you know. And they are very observant and they try to protect you, but they are not always accurate anymore. Anymore. And that's what's happening. And now I'm, does that make sense? Yeah.

Like we might think that one of us is, I don't know, not able to hear something because they've reacted or we think of them still almost as a child. Because the person, he's having a conversation from the place of, I'm not acknowledged, what I contribute isn't valued. And he's instantly thinking, I'm going to get flooded. I'm going to get overwhelmed. I'm not acknowledged when I contribute isn't valued and he's instantly thinking I'm going to get flooded I'm going to get overwhelmed I'm going to get all alone it's all going to be on me and that's the person that's the part of him that is

in the conversation and so you're right that it is not a suggestion but a criticism because it's like we're not talking about the item. There's actually very little of a conversation about the project itself. This is a conversation about our respective fears and vulnerabilities. That's what we are discussing. Yeah. And so it's very confusing

because it's not stated overtly, oh, now it's that part of me that is having a conversation. But you feel the tension. He instantly goes into, that's energy. He goes into the, you know. I do. It's a kind of a semi-pouting, complaining, feeling diminished, but making yourself, you know,

but the energy is right there so nobody can miss it. Oh, my God. Got me. Huh? Got me. I mean, now that it's in front of you, it's like, you know, you can be very overt about it and just say, you know, that tension is rising in me. Or you can just have a conversation with your own tensions.

What's really challenging is we all put a lot of weight on this relationship. I know I personally look at us working together and having this bond from kids and we've had these amazing successes and these amazing experiences. And to me, that's like this. You love the story. I love the story and I'm really proud of it. And it kind of breaks my heart when it's not working because I don't know how to fix it. I don't totally know what to do with all of that knowledge. And we know how it's... Listen, the story is developmental.

When you were two, 10, 20, 30, 35, it's a different story. Before the company, when you were playing together and building outhouses and wood houses and God knows what you built. And then when you went and did your first little film together and then into this company, and you didn't really just build a company. You built a lifestyle. Yeah.

In order to continue something that you cherish. Now you're in this next development. You finished this big project, and your fear is that the thing is going to dissolve when in fact it's just growing. But growth is continuously straddling what you keep from the past and what you add that is new. Yeah.

This is a backtrack of half a sec, but I appreciate the perspective shift of thinking about, I always treat it like, oh, these little things that are, you know, that's the voice of my old me. This is an old me voice. And I think that's sort of doing a disservice to the fact that it's not, it's still me now, which kind of makes me feel like, okay, well then I can work through that more, or at least that there's more of an ability to. It's very present. It may be very much from childhood. It may be a young voice, but it's very much in the present. And the question is, how does it serve you today? Sometimes it serves you. It says, watch out, be careful.

But sometimes it sees danger that is no longer there. And so it needs to be put, it needs to be reassured. And it needs to be reassured by you first and then by each other because you know each other like nobody else. Take advantage. I mean, I was just going to add, like, I think what makes it so heavy feeling is when we get it right, it feels so good. To the point where sometimes we look at each other and we're in disbelief. It's like we're still playing as children. And that feeling when you've kind of crafted this life that feels surreal at times, you're like, wow, if only we could feel this all the time. And then the opposite side of that,

when it feels like it's really not working, it just feels so dark and so exhausting. Short of it being perfect harmony, magical childhood, there is only one option, which is it's not working. Rather than it's more complicated. It's not as easy. It's more difficult than we imagined. There's a few tensions we need to address. You go from all to nothing. Yeah.

Definitely a trade we have. Okay. So that's exactly what I saw when you did your sculptures. You have sculptures that are like perfect harmony. That's how we started, right? And there is, it's so when that's not happening, when not everybody's holding hands together and you uphold each other and everybody the same weight and then short of that there is no alternative.

Rather than… weight and then short of that there is no alternative rather than sort of will like we've been trained to think that way for sure by society I think like you win or you fail there's no in-between that's like the message especially for men there's no alternative so then it's all having to this? I don't feel the same way. Well, I don't know whose house you grew up in. Yeah. No, I don't think I fully feel that way. I think my biggest success is a balance of stability and creative harmony.

Or like a harmony between us like stability in the sense of maybe a financial stability or that we're just like successful to at least a base level with our company and then that we're all acting in a certain amount of harmony and really like that we are providing a value to one another that we can't get ourselves. But aspirationally, I don't think we need to be the best at what we do. I think we can find our own path. Yeah. And how does that land on you when he says we don't have to be the best?

I'm just curious. How much of this conversation do you think involves things that you internalized in your conception of manhood and masculinity? In truth, it's my kid. Little me is very much in that mind. And I don't really necessarily know exactly where it came from. Because, well, I can have many theories, but it doesn't really matter. What's one? Well, I was a small person.

I was the smallest on the playground. I had to fucking deal with, like, people trying to bully me all the time. I always had to win every fight. Like, I couldn't back down. If I got squashed on, like, there was a moment in time where, like, I felt very alone on the playground in a fight no one had my back I had to take down two guys who were like just a little bit bigger than me but like all their older brothers were egging them on and I'm just like there it was absolute shit but clearly stuck in my mind as like a very important thing because that moment in time it felt like nobody had my back and it was just up to me completely and and that is probably why I

used to be like the cleanup guy or whatever. Like, I just felt like there's no one else here. I'm going to have to do this. So it's a strength, too. Do they know this story? Yeah. Yeah, I've told them about this. And, like, I come to see that little kid thing and the masculinity part as a bit of a strength.

But also I have to just not let it rule me and keep me in check. I'm much happier since I've kind of learned to embrace less masculine sides. The feminine. Yeah, the feminine side. There's a lot of positive sides to that. We'll leave it there. And for you? I think I'm more similar to C.

And I think it could definitely be reflected in our ego. I think we each take criticism, I think, more defensively. You know how you were distinguishing before between a criticism and a suggestion? It's actually not that different. Most criticism are veiled wishes. But instead of saying, I would like this, we say, you never do that. You understand? I would like your help is a wish. You're never there when I need you. Right. Is a criticism

I like that it's a really good feeling being asked for help I think like when you on this most recent project and you're like hey can you come in and help me run through some things I'm like fuck yeah I'm there let's go

but when you feel like you're kind of being put down or something you're like well you know what I'm not going to put down or something you're like well you know what i'm not going to show up the way you want me to because i feel xyz i wonder um when when you get sort of closed off or kind of brooding. Are there things that, I don't know, you want us to do when... You get stuck. When you get stuck. Like S was saying, you know, I'll just pick up all the work from you.

But I'm not sure that's actually helpful. No. It's a great question. Yeah. I think personally, I wish I knew like a concrete answer to that. I feel like more often than not, I think I, I don't know, maybe I want to be like brought in or something or just. Did you have tantrums as a little one? Me? I don't... probably. I was just about to say, there's no way you didn't. There's no way you didn't because I'm sure we all did.

Yeah, I mean I definitely don't think I was some little saint. I mean, I don't think I'm having like... When you pout or brood, are you stuck? Like stuck in brood mode? Yes. Probably. Yeah, I think so. Okay. So this is the thing. It's like he can't tell you what he needs because he's stuck. He's brooding. He's feeling victimized and entitled at the same time. And what he could use is someone who gets him out of the state. He needs a state change.

And that may mean moving, not feeling change, state change, standing, jumping jack, you name it. Movement. Because when he's stuck, his body is frozen. That's what I meant by imploding. It's not exploding as in loud. But he goes. And so what you need to do is movement and not talking about what's going on.

That's probably not what is helpful in that moment. Actually getting his mind off it. Cool. Feels quite accurate. That's helpful. And now you can tell them what kind of things get your mind off it it can be going doing errands it can be going to get a beer it can be you know going to ski or going biking or running or any of the physical stuff let's just go and don't discuss any of it and then you can come back once

he's out of it he's back in reset and he can take himself there but it takes him a long time. That sounds pretty true to me. We have to end so tell me where have we arrived and what would be the sculpture now? It's been enlightening I think one of the things that I actually feel like is the most simplified thing that I'll take away was recognizing that if we all think of our contributions as equal, then we're actually diminishing each of our individual contributions. And I think that's something that really resonates sort of like throughout many of our

roadblocks and stagnates our progress. It also kind of felt to me like we were all looking at it in this idealistic sense and showed that we're also all a little bit blind to the present in some way. The story is robust. Let it grow. Let it breathe. Yeah.

Esther Perel is a therapist, best-selling author, speaker, and host of the podcasts, Where Should We Begin and How's Work? To apply with a colleague or partner to do a session for the podcast, or to follow along with each episode's show notes, go to howswork.esterperel.com. How's Work is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan,

Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Howe's work are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Thank you.