Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Am I Being Gaslit?

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

In this Esther Calling, Esther talks to a woman looking for clarity on whether she's being overly sensitive to her partner's critiques or if he is, in fact, gaslighting her. She has struggled with boundary setting before and she wonders if she is repeating the pattern here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every season for Where Should We Begin, I receive thousands of applicants. And one of the most frustrating things is that I'm only going to be able to see 10 couples. And I've been grappling with this. How can I connect with more of you? There are so many powerful questions, so many pain points that I would like to be able to at least address with you, even if shortly. So this series is going to be different. It's you calling me with a very precise question, with your pain point, me calling you back. And together we think out loud and we go from where should we begin to where can you start.

Hello, hello. Hello. hello hello hello so you wrote the question or you recorded the question but if you could ask it to me again as we speak today i'm wondering if i'm being gaslit by my partner or if it's a case that I'm just being overly sensitive I feel like there's that I get certain treatment when we're alone that feels very hidden but you know in speaking to him he says I'm overly sensitive that like I'm overly boundaried and that I am actually it's more that I'm treating him badly and he gets like angry at me for me being kind of bad and he admits his that sometimes his behavior isn't great and he's working on it and he's worked a lot on it I just have no idea if I'm basically a bad person and if I'm treating him like crap and not being sensitive to him because that's what it sounds like so tell me something let's just go a little bit back. How did you come to formulate the question the way you do?

What is the history of your relationship that led you to this question? Am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive? So here's a tendency. So for example, over New Year's, we went away together. We were in the car and I wasn't feeling well and he just kept on like shouting at me and kind of giving out to me and telling me that I wasn't being nice to him and he was shouting at me and originally I thought he was kind of joking and I was like yeah I know I am but I was quite premenstrual at the time and I was menstruating and I felt awful. So I was just kind of a bit of a curmudgeon. I was like, yeah, I know I feel bad. Just let me feel bad.

I know where I am. Like this is grand. And he just kept on shouting like, you're not being nice to me. You're not being nice to me. And like we were literally going to our friend's doorstep. And like, he just left me there and was just just acted like everything was perfectly normal. And it's it seems to often be as well with social settings, that will will be going out, and he'll he'll do something to pull the rug out from underneath me and be like, what's your problem? Another example is I was at therapy and I came back and I wasn't feeling particularly great. You know, we had been talking about boundaries

because I do have concerns that my boundaries aren't very good and it's something that I work on. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? That's a big statement, you know? Yeah. And one in which only you know what you mean by it. Yeah.

So I know that I don't necessarily know how to put up boundaries. I was in a job before, basically I worked myself to a state of very poor health and a lot of that had to do with working with someone who wouldn't let me say no. So no matter how much I was like, I'm not available, they just kept on pushing me. And also that particular industry and that particular job, there was a real need for me. There was nobody else to do the job. I had to travel and move and I was exhausted. But because there was such a need for me, I let myself, I suppose, but I felt like I didn't have a choice. I let myself just get torn into that and away from my life and away from the people that I care about. And eventually I got to a point where I completely burnt out.

And you're telling me this also because in some way something parallel is happening between you and your boyfriend? Yeah, exactly. Right? You are on the verge of burnout. If I ask you, you know, because you say, am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive? Which of course is what people who are gaslit often end up feeling. Yeah. Is that they are being overly sensitive, that they are not clear,

that they're doubting themselves, that they're confused, that they no longer trust their own sanity. Yeah. You know, you went to look for the definition of what being gaslit means? I definitely looked it up at some point, but I don't quite remember it at this moment. So let me, you know, without even defining

the term, if you're telling me I'm in a relationship where I don't trust that what I think has validity. I find myself often saying I feel something and then I'm being blamed for the very thing that I just uttered. The blame is constantly shifting. I am accused of being the gaslighter and then I end up completely confused and it makes me question the situation. And it's like, you know, what we call in my field, projective identification. You know, you are telling me that I'm doing to you what you're exactly doing to me. Yeah. I distrust myself. Yeah. I begin to question my mental health because you keep telling me that my mental health is not steady or something happens and you tell me that's not what happened or that it is your fault if it happened or that I'm doing these

things and I'm saying these mean things because I actually am trying to help you or that it's not such a big deal. So what if you're menstruating? That shouldn't explain why you're treating me the way you are, or that you're overthinking it, or that when I mean I was just joking, or that you're too emotional. These are kind of seven common gaslighting phrases. If any of these are continuously occurring to you, or if you simply, even without that, say, you know, I am constantly questioning myself. I'm constantly doubting myself. I'm constantly in a state of confusion, et cetera, et cetera.

The answer to your question doesn't really matter. What you know is that this is not a good situation. But the thing is, like, that's the thing is like. Now you're going to give me the other side. But we also have nice times. But when I'm about to pull away, he apologizes profusely and he promises that he will change, that he's working on it and that this will never be happening again until two hours later. Yeah. And now you're going to see so back and forth in the ambivalence, you know, here are all these

things, but maybe what if what he says has validity and is true? And maybe I am indeed so insecure and maybe I do indeed have a problem with boundaries which of course I'm having with him too and so in the end maybe he knows me better than I know myself yeah and when I say I'm hungry he says no you're not really hungry you shouldn't be hungry right now and I'm beginning to wonder well maybe then I'm not hungry yeah that's literally like what happens I'll be like oh let's get some food and he'll be like no no I'm like well I need something and I'll end up getting like a protein bar something to tide me over until we're eating and then and then he'll be like oh yeah by the way while you went went into the shop to get a protein bar I got a chicken sandwich and i'm just like what but it's yeah it comes from everywhere it feels very um controlling

it's either reality manipulation scapegoating coercionion, or straight up lying. Those are probably four of the main gaslighting tactics. Shifting blames would be another. When you shift the blame is another common tactic. And the interesting thing as I listen to you is you have the answer to your question. Every time you give me another example to reinforce that you actually know what's happening. But the thing is that like, he has shown me in so many ways that he does love me. And he, like, we have the, honestly, the best time.

He's my best friend in the world. Like, I don't know how to lose him. And, like, that's the thing is, is like I see him as a really good person I see him as like a really kind and warm and friendly and if you see him with his friends he is incredible like incredible like it's so so confusing exactly again but then he turns around and does that that to me but he honestly that's the thing i'm just like i wish that i could wash it off no a question i would ask him yeah is who did this to you and nobody stopped them? Who did you see do this in your family,

and nobody stopped them? I feel like that would be really hard for him, and I would be worried about challenging, not challenging. I think it would, for him, something like that would be. But do you know? I'd imagine i have an idea that's my question my question is you know he may be a wonderful friend but that does not dictate how he's going to be with his girlfriend yeah those two things don't necessarily always go in

sync i would ask him where did he learn this? And who did he see do this? And who never stopped it? And I would then ask you this parallel question. This, of course, is not a question you're going to ask him, but I'm asking that to you because you probably know him. How long are you together? Two years. Okay. And then I'm going to ask you, who did you see in such a dynamic? Where did you learn

not to be able to say no? Because this is not about, am I being gaslit or am I being overly sensitive? Without defining, you know, without focusing just on these two terms, you've described the reality. And then you say, but he loves me. And that may very much be the case as well. But he also needs to control you. But he's also intensely insecure and therefore he needs you to be one down. But he also has a hard time hearing you say, I'm hungry without instantly denying it or defying you or qualifying it or deciding if you have a right to be hungry at this moment or not,

because he knows better than you what your stomach needs. So regardless of how much he loves you, he still would need to learn to differentiate and to be able to let you have an experience and respond caringly and compassionately to it without having to decide if your experience is valid or not before he decides how he wants to respond because he's the master and the judge oh my god yeah that is qualifying my experience that's it it's like every single experience I have all of my friendships all of my work it's like it's being qualified that's exactly it and like being like you're doing this right and you're doing that wrong it's like being stuck in a box. And the thing is that I know that I am brilliant and I have beautiful friendships and I know what I'm doing. And I care about myself.

And I've had to do a lot of work on myself. And I'm continuing to learn and all of, you know, I'm conscious of where I go up and where I go down. And if you had a friend, since you have very good friends, if one of your friends was in a situation that is similar to yours, what would you say? Just step away. It's not, it just doesn't, it's not that easy.

It just doesn't, we're completely entwined in each other's lives as well. And then what would you say to your friend? So your friend says, it's not that easy. We've got our lives completely intertwined with each other. I've invested two years of my life here. I know he loves me, but I'm being obliterated. I'm losing my mind. I'm continuously put in a situation where I have to doubt myself.

Yeah, I'd be like, I'll take care of you. have you spoken with your girlfriends or your friends period yeah a little bit i don't like to speak badly about him because they all know him so I want you know to honor the relationship in a way I've spoken to my sister a bit and has anybody said keep going yeah and then I've I had one friend who was like had flagged it early and when she flagged it that was also the time literally the same day when I had the the breakdown uh for work or the day that I got literally a cert from my doctor being like you can't go to work and you can't do that job anymore and I uh was not sleeping through the night and I was it was I was like literally talking to him about it and he was like well I'm thinking about maybe we should break up so he he's he nearly always when I'm at a level of peak stress,

he'll put something else on top. And then I never went back to work after that. So if you are struggling with something, he will trump you? If you bring up a feeling, he'll bring up another one that he thinks in that moment is more important than the one you just brought up? Yeah, every single time. So that boundary, when I was talking about that boundaries thing, in that moment is more important than the one you just brought up yeah every single time so that

boundary when I was talking about that boundaries thing he flipped when I when I was back from the therapist and I was just like literally standing in the kitchen being like I just need to eat some dinner so I was like right I'm just going to make myself some food I'm going to take care of myself I'm going to nourish my body and I was like okay I just need you know I'm a bit weird right now I just need a little bit of space because I blah blah and then he started at me and I was like no I can't handle this right now I've explained the fact that I'm feeling very vulnerable I I'm just like letting you know that. And he was in a great mood when I came in and then suddenly he turned and then he started shouting at me and shouting at me. And I was like, stop shouting at me. And then he freaked out about me having, me not understanding what a boundary was, me turning my boundaries against him and then he made me uh we had this long discussion about

what qualifies shouting or not and then we literally got into the depths of like right what shouting what the semiotics of the word shouting is to both of us and then he made me force he made me say that he hadn't been shouting at me in regard in terms of the way that he understands the word shouting so you cover all four right you cover the coercive strategies you cover the shifting of the blame you cover the questioning of your reality you cover the manipulation the disqualifying so you've answered your question. What has made it so difficult for you to know that you have to go or to act on it? Where does your challenge come from in terms of saying no, in terms of saying this is I know I need to do

and I'll deal with the consequences. In fact, I'll be liberated. I'll suddenly realize how much I've been hijacked and what kind of a hostage situation this has been. And I will be able to once again, liberate myself with my friends. And then my friends are going to start telling me how they had noticed it, that and the other. And I'm going to say, how come you never told me? And they'll tell me, we kept kept trying to tell you but you couldn't hear it because you were completely enveloped in this saga yeah it's bizarre I know that you're right I know that you're brilliant you know you've answered your questions you have your answer this is not a question of discernment this is a question of you've tried it before you may try it again he's gonna beg you he's gonna plead you he's gonna be

his best self for half an hour and he's a he may be a perfectly good kind person yeah but he's got some things to deal with if he's going to be in a relationship and so do you yeah well yeah i think that's the thing is like i'm like if i've tried so hard you know and i'm 35 i've been in enough relationships and like he genuinely has worked a lot on himself and i can see how he's come along in a in a like in a big way do you know what well i don't know what you mean because every example you've given shows me somebody who has very little ability to see what he does. And of course, for any gaslighter, there must be a person that is letting themselves be gaslit.

These two go together. But there hasn't been a situation where you describe him saying, I realize, I notice, I take responsibility, I I'm sorry I was projecting I was dumping he has none of it well he has done that I mean when when you leave no I mean that's I think that's the thing about we do talk after these things happen like I've been listening to you for ever I never knew that he knew about you and he sent me something like one of your YouTube videos about like when couples get to an impasse and he was like let's look at this and let's talk about this based on the tools that are there and like I really appreciate that I can see him trying but the thing is

we're actually at a point right now where we're not really speaking and I asked for the keys back for my flat after everything that happened that I've been kind of talking about recently. It was too much. I mean, that piece of your excusing him and analyzing and justifying and excusing his behavior is part of the gas lit cycle.

He's doing this, but he doesn't really mean to do this. He feels bad about it afterwards. And so now I need to make him feel better about him making me feel bad. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. This is twisted. Completely twisted because I was on the phone to him yesterday I wanted to let him know that I was going to be speaking to you because I thought that was

respectful I also was like look in the long run like I feel like we've been kind of running on kind of my what I want I just want to know what you want and then of course it came back around to how much all of his friends told him that like he's great and and then I of course was like well you're a great person and I want you to know that you're a good person and I do think that but it still comes around to like having this treatment and I still seem to be the person going to him being telling him that he's good and then I'm the bad guy again and does that come from him as well you're a wonderful person no I guess you're a lovely person you're a lovely person okay if you are indeed such close friends and if he's indeed such a wonderful person, then you may want to find this relational structure that will actually highlight that.

Being his friend may give you much more of the wonderful qualities that he has than being his girlfriend. Yeah. At least for right now. So he can stay in your life. It's not clear that he will. Generally, when that dynamic occurs, it's more common that the person will be more vindictive and not want anything to do with you. They'll try, they'll try, they'll come back, they'll come back until they finally realize that maybe they're not going to get what they want and then they'll say fuck you yeah and but if he does stay have him in your life but have him in the structure of relationship that gives you access to the best qualities that he has if he's such a wonderful friend, be a friend. But I love him.

That is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to make a life in that dynamic. Yeah. It doesn't change if people don't actively take ownership over what they do to create this kind of dynamic and that means you and him yeah One of the reasons that I contacted you is I just want, I know that I'm autonomous in this relationship. But it's really hard to admit that I've let somebody walk all over me and that I haven't been strong enough to tell them to piss off. It makes me question myself so much more. Which is one of the reasons why these dynamics

sometimes go on for a long time. Because he has his denial. His denial is to shift the blame on you. But you have your denial, which is this isn't really happening. I could walk away at any time. I am a strong woman. I am autonomous. Nobody tells me what to do like that. But but in fact that's not what's happening so it's one denial meeting another denial so to speak yeah i hear you and when you just say but i love him so what i mean i hear you it's a deep feeling but the question remains and what do you want to do that your feelings of love are mired into a relationship that is ultimately going to make you lose your entire sense of yourself yeah so you will continue to say i love, but the I will have dissolved in the process.

Yeah. It's not easy. You're going to surround yourself with friends and you're going to have to be honest with your friends and let them know what's going on. found yourself in a relationship where instead of increasingly becoming bolder and stronger and more recognized, it's all the reverse that is happening. And that's not because of what he does only. If on the other end, you say, I want to do some couples work and I want us to both go and deal with this dynamic, go it won't change alone somebody has to see this in action to be able to intervene yeah each of you will make perfect sense when you talk alone to your own respective therapists

yeah couples counseling is on the cards right now We've seen a couples counselor before and it didn't, she wasn't great. And my concern is that he's going to, he's going to charm them and he's not going to show the truth of the dynamic when there's another person present. then you'll put that on the table too yeah yeah a good clinician sees the invisible and sometimes hears the inaudible i mean thank goodness for you and thank goodness for this phone call like i it's just like clearing the clouds from my brain.

Look, I'm going to ask the question again and we're going to say goodbye. But it is the question that you didn't answer, which is where does your challenge come from? Because you could say, you know, saying no is difficult for me. So I found a person with whom I can practice that muscle. Right. These things are a mindfuck. Yeah. But you may want to say, I want to practice my no. And I found the best place to do so because there is a person who doesn't hear any of them. So I practice boundaries with somebody who doesn't respect any of them or sees them all as an attack on him

or sees them as a weakness of mine, but they're all qualified. Or you may say, that doesn't have to be the way I'm looking for a relationship. I know you're 35 and I know that you love him and I know that you think you've had your share, but maybe that should bring you also a level of awareness

that says, is this how I want to live? I think that's the thing. It's like I don't know how I'll have a healthy and wholesome relationship. I just keep on seem to getting, get like battered or something. Why me, smart, accomplished, professional, insightful, autonomous woman find myself in relationships with men where I end up in this kind of battered position?

That is a very powerful question. Yeah. And how do I learn to see it sooner rather than later? Yeah. And how do I say I'm breaking the cycle and then act on it? Is this a good place to stop? In my head, I'm only just beginning. Because I'm leaving you with some big questions rather than slap answers.

Because you have the answer. To the question that you came with, you know the answer to the question that you came with you know the answer before you came to what is the cycle that you are repeating we didn't get to but we suspect there is one because this is not your first time different different melodies for the same dance. If we were seeing each other regularly, this would be the moment where I say to be continued. But it will be continued, but without me. But I'm inviting you to take this and do something with it.

I will. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller,

and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.