Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Did I Get Ghosted or Is He Just Not That Into Me?

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

A young woman notices a pattern in her life of frequently being ghosted. And the last time this happened, it really stung. Not only did she lose a lover but she lost an important friend. Did this friend with benefits ghost her or did she miss something?  For the month of January, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity, or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad free version of all the episodes. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail].  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to 2025, our 8th year of Where Should We Begin? In this new year, I know you will be trying new things, including listening to new podcasts. So whether you're new here or you haven't been here for a while, welcome to my office. Each week I open the door and invite you to come in and listen in to couples and individuals searching for insight. This is a space to be heard, to get unstuck and to feel empowered in your own relationships. You listen deeply to others and you see yourself. And even when the story is different from yours, you find something that you can relate

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or also people I've been dating within my circle of friends and people I've been knowing for a long time. And that makes it a lot more toxic and more complicated than online encounters. And I did follow your advice and also my therapist's advice of calling them out on it, trying to be calm, but to stand up for yourself. Because one thing that happens, it's creating a sense of helplessness. If these things are happening multiple times. For me, it's been like many, many times, countless.

I don't even know how many. And so I've started doing that. And the response was sometimes really aggressive and the new thing seems to be, hey, you're implementing your moral standards on me and I'm not interested in that and you're not allowed to tell me what to do and what is right and what is not.

And that is coming from a very aggressive place within them and I wonder if there's something really worrisome also going on. Very nice to meet you. Pleasure, pleasure. You know, I only read a few things from what you wrote, but you said it's kind of a great opening. Berlin, worst city to be single. Yeah, kind of. It's what a lot of people say, actually. Tell me more. Well, I don't know.

Berlin is a great place. It's a very young city with a lot of life and always new influences, but a lot of FOMO, there's always this new big thing or another better thing out there. So people are a bit flaky or it's just difficult to build like really strong relationships in general, I would say. I've also lived in New York for two years, so also no dating there. Okay, so let's do a cross-cultural analysis as experienced by you. Yeah.

So start with the village, then go to New York, then go to Berlin. I can try to elaborate on that. I feel like there's a very big shift from my 20s to my 30s and how dating has evolved. I think that impact was even stronger than naturally the change of location. But I would say just in the village when I was younger, you would always see each other and people would know each other. So it was not so easy to like, if something would go wrong, people would eventually need to meet you again and maybe say something to you.

Whereas in the bigger cities, it's really anonymous. People can just disappear and it doesn't matter because there's no connection whatsoever most of the time. But I think that makes a really big difference because people feel more reliable. Also, I feel like I've started as an adult in a dating culture that was less flaky. It was just more, um, less quantity. Now there's, there's so, there's so many people to me that I feel- Less quantity because the village was smaller or cause you didn't date on apps? Both, both, but especially because of the apps.

I think the idea that there's always something bigger and better, like something better out there, I think has just changed how we date. Because why would you spend too much time on one person if there can be somebody else? So that I think it was slower and more respectful in many ways. So now I have the feeling that there are just some fundamental things missing in these sort of encounters. I feel oftentimes very hurt and not seen. Talking about the ghosting that is really symbolic for me, kind of that we're losing empathy in our relationships.

And I've seen this a lot. It has happened to me many times. symbolic for me, kind of that we're losing empathy in our relationships. I've seen this a lot. It has happened to me many times. I think the last time it happened, something has shifted because it was with a friend who was also a lover after a seven years friendship. I think that really hurt me because it was like, okay, like, if there are even people really close to me doing these kind of things, I maybe just have to accept it as a new normal that is part of our society, you still are going to

meet the person at the next party, at the next wedding, at the next holiday. And so it's not because you have empathy. It's because you just know communal living requires that you can put aside certain grievances because you need to be accountable and you need to be able to be polite, civil. You don't have to like each other, you may not even talk to each other, but you need to be able to be in the same space. And it's not done by empathy. No, that's true. And then what you're saying is the flakiness I'm hearing is not just in dating.

You have a feeling that something loosened in the depth of the ties, in the level of accountability or responsibility or respect, loyalty maybe as well, that people bring to their relationships. And you're giving the example of this friend-lover who seems to have undone the relationship as if there never had been seven years of closeness, connection, complicity, pleasure. And how can you kind of forget that whole thing and undo or ghost me as if we had just met yesterday? A hundred percent, everything. And what's missing? if we had just met yesterday? 100%, everything, yes. And what's missing?

First, I felt really helpless. I was like, OK, he's making this decision. It's hurting me. I don't know what to do. And then I can at least articulate how I feel. That gives me my power back, so I don't feel so helpless. So I tried telling him after a while, you know, because he also announced that he wouldn't ghost me a couple of months before.

So when he did, what did he do? He just disappeared? Yes, for two months. For two months? Yeah, and then I just said, hey, I was really sad that you just pulled out of this without telling me what's happening, because I knew the relationship could end anytime. We weren't… It was like a friends with benefits situation. We didn't… The only thing we agreed on is to take care of each other and to talk things through. But yeah, then he did that and he responded, but he didn't say sorry or anything. He was just saying, this was all too much for me and yeah, we will see each other at some point. And I was like, okay, thanks for telling me that you don't want to see me again.

And then I said, that felt kind of unfair a little bit that you didn't communicate that to me. And then I received a very long message. I felt it was a little bit aggressive also. He was saying, don't implement your moral standards on me. I don't need you to tell me what to do. I also don't need you to explain me how friends with benefits work. I did things how I did them and on and on. And I was like in shock. I didn't know what to do with that experience.

And then I tried again approaching him and saying, I don't know where this anger comes from. This is all in text. It was, yeah, unfortunately, well, voice message text makes, unfortunately, because I felt he didn't want to talk anymore. So I tried my best and I was like, hey, sorry you're so angry, but it's really good to know how you feel. This is how the experience was for me and so on and on. Explained it and then I said hey it's very important for me in a friendship

that I can say how I feel and if that is not the case I don't know how we can continue being friends. But I also ended the message with saying how important he was to me after such a long time and sharing so much. And he only responded, thank you, goodbye. And I never heard from him again. And yeah, it really hurt me because I also lost a friend. And I tried my best,, yeah. First of all, this is a big loss, because as you say, it was a double loss.

And because there was no way to uncouple the benefits from the friendship and to preserve the friendship and let go of the benefits. And when he said it was all too much, is it because he wanted something more stable or was it because he actually felt that he projected onto you that you wanted more? Which one? He said that I was looking for something that he couldn't give me, but somehow he didn't want to talk about it again. Because we did have wonderful conversations before, and he was just out of a relationship, so he wasn't really ready. And I was, I guess, just enjoying the moment. How long were you lovers? For half a year. But it was already the second time. So yeah. It's just for me, it has changed something. I think when other

people did that to me that I didn't know as well, you're already used to it, but if it's somebody so close, it's hard. Yeah. Of course it is. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. You're planning for 2025 and you might be thinking, how can I make this year different? How am I going to build something for myself? Maybe you've been dying to start your own business and be your own boss but you don't know how to

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Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Tell me, what is it about this one that feels like it's piercing deep for you? Because there has been just a strong connection. It was not defined. It was maybe not enough to be a relationship. It was something in between, but I think we've been really supporting each other on many levels also.

He's always been that person that really supported me and was just a really loving connection. But there was also always a little bit of a flirt going on and I think on some level I felt I needed to know what it is after such a long time. So it was good to know that it's not working because I wasn't clear if it's a friend or if it's more… It was this weird kind of connection. But you lost a friend, you lost a peer, mentor, you lost a lover, and you shared on many levels with him. That's a lot. That's a big loss.

Yeah, I had the feeling something changed inside. All of a sudden I was like, okay, I maybe… I have to accept that for some people this is how they want to live and that's what they... He didn't ghost you. He didn't ghost you. No, he didn't. He didn't ghost you. You each pushed each other to an edge. you each pushed each other to an edge.

First, he said, this is too much, I can't handle it, I need to take some space from you, I just ended the relationship, and now I'm feeling like you are wanting to step in. Then you said, no, but after what we have experienced together, I still expect from you to show up and to be more communicative, to which he says, please don't make me feel guilty on top of everything now, to which you say, well, if I can't tell you how I feel, then I prefer not to have a relationship, to which he then says,

well, then thank you. I hear it so much more as a kind of real miscommunication Maybe. in which each person made a bunch of assumptions about what the other one was saying and not saying. And the confusion was between what you thought was expressing how you feel and what he experienced as a good dose of judgment and guilt. Yeah, I didn't want him to feel that though. No, that's why I'm saying it's a

to me, I see this as a crossing of wires and a kind of a sequence of misunderstandings and no one said the first of all let's not do this on the phone. Let's meet and just talk. We have a seven-year relationship. This may be our first, is this our first conflict or we've had others? No, this is the first one. Okay. We are in our first conflict.

We're not going to end our friendship because of that. So I said to you that I need to be able to talk to you, but maybe what I need to say to you is that I would love to hear you, because I missed something. And hopefully you may want to do the same and we can both hear each other, but hear each other with curiosity, with real desire to understand. You know what would have been ghosting? This may be my criteria, maybe totally off, is that you would have written him this whole long thing and he would not have answered. He would just have left it in suspension, hanging.

Oh yeah, that was the case actually. I mean, it was because of a message of mine that he retreated. So that left me with a question mark. But absolutely, I mean, I could have maybe approached it a bit calmer and started to confer. It's not over. You think so? I have no idea. But I think that friendships are, friendships go through their trials and tribulations. And sometimes you write to someone and you say, you know, I'm sitting with this thing

and it just doesn't feel right. We have such a rich seven-year friendship and is that really what we want to do is to let it drop. So whatever I may have done that contributes to the mess we're sitting in, I want to really take responsibility for that. And this is an invitation. I don't like the way we end it. I don't think that it does justice to the depth of what we have had together as friends, as collaborators. If you're open to that, I would love for us to just meet, even if it's for a post-mortem. And if not, then maybe it's just to understand that our friendship will have gone through its first real conflict. And if you say to me, I'm so past this, I

have zero interest, it'll make me very sad, but at least I will be really clear. Yeah. Would be really helpful. Because these connections are rare, they don't exist so often. I didn't want him to feel judged or pushed. I tried to explain that and I was like, no, not at all. I didn't want to put anything on you that you don't want, not at all. And I also had a feeling we were talking through things. That's why I was so surprised that all of a sudden he felt like he couldn't talk to me anymore. But there was a subtext. And the subtext was that your friendship and the benefits, they were not on the same ground that they had been before. Because he ended his relationship. Mm-hmm.

And that, you know, the relationship before then was, there were three people. And the balance between the two of you was inseparable from the dynamic between him and the other person. But we didn't have an affair while he was in the relationship. No, no, no. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter? No. Okay. Because I while he was in a relationship. No, no, no. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter? No. Okay. Because I was still there as a friend.

Because the expectations shift. Because the sense of possibility changes. Because the dreams get activated. Because this friendship with benefit, living in parallel with another romantic relationship is not the same as this friendship would benefit when it's on its own and there is no obstacles, no impediments, nothing standing in the way in between. And so new thoughts emerge. What would it be?

Could it be? Is that a possibility? What do we really feel? Those questions, they don't emerge like this when they are kept underground by another relationship. Because you were friends who had actually a fight of lovers. Because you were friends who had actually a fight of lovers. So you mean that while he was in a relationship there was still this energy between us, that's what you're referring to, right? Yes, but it's contained. It was contained.

It's contained. Yeah, that's true. The triad, so to speak, creates a balance. Who relies on what for whom? Who can ask what? What expectations are explicit and what expectations remain implicit? Yeah, and since we only became lovers then later, then all of a sudden everything was possible and that changed our friendship also. That's right. Yeah, that's true.

And I guess it was a process for both of us finding out what is this and yeah, maybe I have to talk to him again. It's just maybe I was too stubborn also like in that moment where I was like, whoa, what is this message? And you get triggered also. And I think it's just so bad also, these text messages. It's so bad. I mean, text messages certainly don't allow for much nuance. People interpret the tones. They often misinterpret the tones, actually, especially when it's a highly reactive series of messages and each one was more reactive to the next. You went at it very, very fast and it unraveled in five texts. It's like seven years unraveled in five texts. So at

some point, if it matters, you just say, maybe we are not meant to be lovers, but we certainly had a beautiful friendship. And it doesn't happen every day. It's a thing we really need to treasure. So it's not a letter where you hold each other responsible for whatever happened. It's a place where you talk about what is precious and what you cherish in your friendship. Yeah. Like, first you need to reconnect, then you can talk about the things that have disconnected you.

Yeah. It's not going to be easy. I feel it's so hard to overcome your inner, I don't know, the pain or the feelings. Is it like, why should I? I didn't create this? He's the one who cut it off? A little bit. It's true. And I'm not going to go do what Purell says and then find myself completely ridiculous.

Yeah. What I don't like is this, like, you start judging the other person too much and you start retreating. And I don't like that. I want to be in touch and open. So maybe I should try that. There's no should here. You can say, I'm just letting it unravel.

It'll fizzle, it'll disappear, it leaves my life. It becomes a memory. Or you say, I want to see what happens. Mistakes are low. We're not in touch now, we may not be in touch later, but at least I feel like I will have tried according to my own priorities, values, character. Do not do it because we're talking about it. Yeah, yeah, no, it has to come from inside.

It's either you say, this thing sits on me, gnaws at me, it just doesn't feel good, it's unfinished. Yeah, it does. I want to finish. At least it'll go one way or another, but at least I want clarity and I want closure. Yeah. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. Interestingly, I'm thinking about this less about ghosting

and more about repair. Oh. How do we repair breaches in a relationship? Yeah. Trying to be empathetic and understand where the other person is coming from and offering them a possibility to heal things also, and to explain themselves. And to ourselves. And to ourselves. And to ourselves.

Do you know if He thinks of you? Do you wonder? Do you have shared friends? Do you have common circles? We have common circles. I haven't asked them, but I do wonder a lot actually how He felt about this. First I had a feeling He might check in with me in a couple months. I had that feeling that might happen, but it didn't.

I was like, oops, this is probably done. And what if you checked with him? Yeah, I could, but it was always me approaching him, so it just feels wrong. Yep. Because I established a conversation several times, so I'm like, okay, I'm with you. Okay, all right. Sometimes there is no closure, and I don't really want to go and put the effort in enclosing or in clarifying.

I don't want to invest anything in it. I let it float. I think of it on occasion. It'll probably come back if something else happens in my life. But I've been the one all along. I'm not interested to once again be the person to reach out. This is an exercise in getting to know you, not him. I know. I think my need to end things in a good way, or like my hope that there is always like, not a happy ending, but at least a respectful or a loving ending.

Where did you learn that? Well, I had a feeling how I grew up, there was not so much space for conversation or like hearing each other. I think it's also cultural. When I moved to New York, I was like, oh my God, everyone is talking about their feelings. This is, I was like, oh my God, everyone is talking about their feelings. I was like, wow.

And like everyone had things to share about going to therapy and what they're working on as like, wow, this is so different where I'm from and things have changed by now, I think we're more, more aware, but, um, when I, when I was a child or a teenager, that was not usual, that you would be so open about what moves you. And that was not easy also because you felt embarrassed sharing things. So I think growing up in that environment and then experiencing it differently, I was like, okay, I want more of this.

This is nice. And from New York to Berlin? From New York to Berlin. Well, Berlin is not Germany, it's its own world. And there are so many cultures present. But what I think is different, it's harder to build that trust with people, to actually go so deep into conversations. And I feel it's also harder a little bit to build community.

But I mean, that might also depend a little bit on your situation. But I did experience it here also, and I have it now, which is really beautiful. But it's been work, so I had to find the community. And when you say work, you mean what? Looking at my relationships and seeing which ones are healthy and which ones are not, and eventually having some conversations and seeing if you can move forward or not. But eventually I had to let go of some people, which was not easy. I'm also talking about friends, like, mostly.

That was hard to let some people go, but then I was like, okay, well, maybe there was also a certain time that we were supposed to share, and now we've just grown apart. But I often think of them, you know? It's very hard. So, it's very interesting, because part of what happens is you come to a new place. I came to New York as well as a new place and you meet all kinds of new people and they become your first friends of the arrival phase. And then you meet new people and of all the people you meet, one or two stay And of all the people you meet, one or two stay, and then new arrive.

And then slowly you build the community that will become the social circle you live in. And in passing, in between, if you really look, you probably ghosted a few. Yeah, we all do it. You know, you ghosted a few without calling it ghosting. Absolutely. I stopped inviting these people. They asked me to meet. It takes a long time to meet. And in the end, it kind of never really happened.

I'm available for others. Most of the time, not a real conversation that says, you know, we have done what we were supposed to do. It speaks for itself as part of the lack of tending, as part of the letting it just kind of fizzle. And I was thinking about the many, many ways that we often ghost, but without naming it like that. Because if I spoke with some of these other people, they may say, she was too busy, she stopped answering, we were not that important for her anymore.

And I may have said the same thing about other people. There's this whole set of statements that speak to the unraveling of the ties in a friendship. And then if you have a friendship with benefits, which lives on different codes, yeah, and the fascinating thing is you say the one thing we said we would do is we would take care of each other and we would communicate. She says, of course, the one thing we didn't do. And it's paying the price of the friendship for the lack of clarity in the benefits. And that's part of why I said to you, is this a story of ghosting? Is this the story of repair?

If one wants to? What does it mean? What does it take to do that? How do we feel about being the pursuer that says, this matters to me, therefore I'm the one who calls, rather than why should it always be me? If it's always me, then obviously it matters to me more than to him, and I've done this before and I'm not doing this again. We have 10 conversations in our head before we have a conversation with the person we should be having a conversation with. Yeah.

And we are all very, I mean not all, but we are sensitive to rejection. We track it. We don't like it. It hurts. It makes us feel small. It makes us feel less valued, less important. And because of some of the blurring of the boundaries today between one relationship and another, we find ourselves with a number of unfinished, unfinished what? Yeah, unfinished stories. It's very interesting what you've been saying. I wonder if it's always been a little bit like this, if ghosting has always been there in different forms.

We have always made decisions, right, in who we want to continue being friends with and who not. And yeah, I guess it's just part of life too. You have to let go people sometimes. And, and also like just find out where your boundaries are and what are you willing to invest in, in a relationship, I guess. And I'm aware that like a friends with benefits situation is a complicated thing and it could go either way. I knew it was a risk.

Yes, it is a piece of the question for me a little bit. It doesn't change how bad it feels and how hurt we can be and how sad it can make us, you know. But I remember running to the mailbox when I had a new friend in mind or a new encounter and I'd run to the mailbox and there would be letters. And then over time, sometimes the letters began to be every three weeks and then every six weeks. And then basically there was no letter. So the story of fizzling out, the story of one day not responding anymore,

then came the phone, then came the answering machine, then came the email, then came the text. So what has changed is the speed with which we could communicate and also therefore the speech with which we could instantly interrupt the communication. It's from one minute to the next. It's not three weeks have passed and I'm noticing that I probably shouldn't continue run to the mailbox. Yeah. Maybe it's not helpful to just blame ghosting and technology all the time.

Maybe it's about finding new ways of keeping conversation up. I don't know. I mean, the principle of repair stays the same. It's one in which the relationship is put in the center, and two people each acknowledge what they have done that may have put the relationship at risk. If they point finger at the other, whether it's in a mail, in person, on the phone, or on a text, it's the same strategy. It will backfire.

It's, I care about the relationship. I care about our friendship and I care about us. And then you continue about what I may have done that can jeopardize it or that wasn't smart or that wasn't caring, kind to the friendship. So it's you and I having a conversation about it and valuing it and preserving it rather than you and I telling each other what the other one has done wrong. rather than you and I telling each other what the other one has done wrong. It's a we.

It's we have had, we have been, we have been there for each other, we have supported each other. The way you believe in me and in what I do has been so important. You want people who understand where you came from, but you also want people who support who you are becoming. And He was one of those. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, He was very supportive in that. Yeah.

And He saw the light in what was possible. That's really true. And that's friendship plus benefits of a different kind of benefits. And so many levels, yeah. Yeah. Those who believe in us and see something that we don't yet see, those who support us in our endeavors, in our ambitions, that whole thing is a whole other layer of benefits.

And were you that for him, too? I think so. I tried to be. I took an effort in that, yeah. So if you ever reach out to Him, it's not because you're the one initiating, running after Him. Maybe you're just simply better at it. But it's not like you bear more responsibility or you're more guilty or you owe a bigger apology. It's just simply, this matters to me and therefore I'm going to do what I care about. If I succeed, I succeed. If I don't, so be it. But it's from that place. Healing would feel amazing if I could heal this and repair this

because he is important and I guess he still is. So, thank you. You're welcome. This was an Aster calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Aster and it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel

is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Attin. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.