Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - I Accidentally Dated An OnlyFans Star

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Post-breakup rumination is a familiar spiral. We replay the signs, question our judgment, and wonder how we didn’t see it coming. This week, Esther speaks with a man grappling with the lingering grief and betrayal of discovering that his ex wasn't exactly who he thought she was. Together, they explore the complex aftermath of a relationship. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Esther. I'm 34 years old, and I unknowingly dated a sex worker. I'm hoping you can help me answer questions and unpack some lingering thoughts about that relationship. I fell head over heels for this woman I met a handful of times in social settings over the course of about a year. After our first date, we spent almost every day together for months, and I was crazy about her. I knew she did modeling and it didn't bother me. I knew that was a part of her life. But after an argument one day, she opened up to me and told me that she did something with OnlyFans.

I asked her if she was currently making content or if that was in the past. She said it was prior to us dating. I wasn't thrilled, but I was trying to stay regulated and ask questions. perhaps more like an investigator than a curious partner. She described doing things, taking pictures, and doing some other custom content that she couldn't remember. And then I became more upset that I felt like she was misrepresenting the facts to appease my emotions and manage my reaction.

In hindsight, I think I was just naive and didn't trust my gut. We eventually broke up and had no contact for, several months. And during that time of no contact, I let my prior inklings about her sex work get the better of me. And after a deep dive down the internet rabbit hole, I found what I was looking for. Part of me felt kind of excited to see her posing nude and engaging in sex acts with another man. Maybe it was validating my own sexual competence or there's a voyeuristic quality about it. But it was also painful, knowing that she was actively profiting from that or engaging in that while we were together.

It felt like a big betrayal. And it felt like our relationship was built on this big lie. Later, we ended up reconnecting in a platonic way. But I chose not to tell her that I found out about the sex work, the only fans. I don't know if I was trying to avoid being mean and calling her out, like a gotcha. I don't know if I was trying to protect her, or if I was trying to protect myself from the discomfort or not speaking up for myself. But then our attempted friendship ruptured even more intensely

than our relationship had. And we have not spoken in about six months at all. I'm hoping that you could kind of give me some insight. I know I've experienced grief and loss in the past before, and perhaps that's part of it as well. I know I've been guarding myself from falling in love again, and that's something I'd still like to have in my future. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Sixpenny.

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What happens to the industry next? That's this week on channels wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts I watch you listening and while you're narrating your story I watch your face narrate every piece of the story with different expressions

from smiles to sadness to tears to disbelief a range it was just like I wondered what would it be like if I only looked at your facial expressions and didn't listen to the story

but I would have a sense of the arc of where you started and where you ended. So you listen to it too. Tell me. That's interesting you say that because I felt that too. Especially in the beginning, it was felt very nostalgic and these kind of happy memories. And then as we come to the turn in the story, I noticed that kind of the sadness,

the feeling of maybe betrayal or just I could definitely feel my mood shift throughout, like hearing me tell the story for sure yes yes so where do you want to start i think um i carry a lot of grief and sadness around that and anger there's times where i you know feel angry at her at myself and i don't know if that's like feeling helpless or where that's coming from but i noticed there can be an intense feeling of anger that comes up around this story when i recall And it grabs you where and it says what? It sometimes grabs me by the throat or by the chest. And it sounds like how could you let this happen to yourself?

And then the negative self-talk comes in and feeling stupid and feeling naive. And how did I let this happen to me? That's what it sounds like internally. And it's your stupid. Just to go into the granular of the self-talk. You're stupid for what? For... You should not have let what happen.

And there are so many micro stories within the story as well, right? Yes. So you can fill in the blanks because it helps me to know. Otherwise, it's generic. So there is anger in, I feel like, not honoring my own internal. personal trusting my gut and not acting on it in certain occasions. Like, for example, I had been seeing this person for a while and I very suddenly got sick and I wasn't sure what was wrong with me. And she is a medical professional. So she was

by helping take care of me and find different over-account of the medications for me to take and just, you know, making tea, making food I could put down, being very sweet and doting in that way. And I continue to get sicker, sores in my mouth and couldn't swallow and fever and fatigue and all this stuff. And so I had other symptoms sexually too. And so I decided to go get tested. and I tested positive for HSV-1, so oral herpes. And when I had told her about, because I know for some people it's not a big deal because it's common, but I had never had that before,

and it was such a huge primary outbreak. And so when I had told her, her response was, you don't know you got it for me. And then continuing to elaborate, and then hearing her say, start tearing up and saying, I'm so, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what to do. I didn't, I, you know, I felt bad and I didn't know what to do. And in hindsight, it just felt like, you know, you, you, you saw this happen to me and this is your line of work and you watched me get sick and you didn't tell me what was happening. And you like took care of me while you saw me getting sick when you very likely knew what was happening. And that just felt really. shitty and then I stayed through it too um that was a betrayal yeah um that's just one of the betrayals that's just one example yeah and you she it came the idea was it came from

her but she didn't tell you uh yeah um not prior or not during it wasn't until after sharing the test results yeah so it's not just that she took care of you is that she also knew what it was. I believe so. Yeah. I think that's very likely. Yeah. And so the question that you have is because once you pound on yourself and you just say, I'm so stupid, there's not, there's nowhere to go, right? But you have a question, like when you say, I felt something and yet I proceeded. I accepted something that I wanted so badly that I didn't see. the cracks? Or I noticed small cracks developing and decided that, oh, they may not turn into bigger cracks or, oh, we can just put some tape and glue on it and it'll be okay, or we can

ignore them. When you think of the glue, you think of which crack? Because you are bound with situations in your head and you keep going through them one by one. They come back and you kind of are ruminating, going through the rollerdecks of compromises. Yeah, especially that story I just told being one of the big, big early ones, yeah. It's also one that leaves a legacy from her that is now a part of you. Yeah. And that makes her harder to forget. Yeah, she's part of the story.

For better, for worse. So give me a sense of how. how the delusion works. The crack isn't really that deep. We can fix it. We can tape it. We can cover it up. Yeah.

Okay. I can, yeah. Okay. Let's see. When we had met a couple times before that, she was very attractive. I found her very attractive. But then we're...

And you say that as a way of saying when I'm very, very attracted. My brain doesn't think that's probably the same way I think most men might agree with that too but yes or people in general but I remember having a conversation with her once and just she was incredibly intelligent and knowledgeable and for me that was also very attractive just someone who's got you know brains I was like oh okay like I like this like that's makes it better and when we started dating it was just she had all these great qualities she was charismatic and intelligent and funny

and we spent all this time together and we had some shared hobbies that we would, you know, get to engage in together and that made it a lot of fun. And we, it turned out, we didn't know this prior until our first day that we were actually neighbors, which is funny. So it made it really easy to spend lots of time together frequently and for quite a period of time. And, you know, I think it was a lot of those things that made it enjoyable. And there was a time where she was my best friend. No. And now your face and your heart are feeling that. So you feel like you lost your girlfriend and your best friend.

Yeah. Or a best friend. Yeah. So tell me about the cracks that you don't want to see. Or that other needs supersede. Because you may have seen them, but there was other things that he wanted to see more. Yeah, I'm clipping through that mental rolodex of cracks. Say which one next.

And I have definitely played a part in it. It takes two to tango for sure. So I'm aware of that. And there's times where I wasn't healthy and I stuck around and I was, you know, unkind and unhealthy as well. But another one that comes to mind just... Before you jump, what are you saying when you say that? That's code language. You're right, it is.

Let's see. And I think this kind of speaks to the anger, too, and the regulation piece for me. And this is, you know, I remember when we broke up and I had texted her the next day and she said, okay, like, you know, you can, you know, we can spend some time together, but I don't want to talk about it. And so we kept spending time together and, you know, being not. obligated to each other anymore and I found out that she had moved on very quickly and was already sleeping with other people and that felt incredibly hurtful to me we had broken up but it was still the I'm still telling you that even though we're broken up she's still telling me I love you and I care

about you and saying all those things and then acting differently so to me the words and the actions weren't aligned. So when I found out, I, there was no sense of, you know, tact or timing at all. I confronted her in public and basically told her that it was, you know, don't call me, don't text me, lose my number. And that, you know, that was a big rupture and doing that in a public space was very unkind and just, it was just wrong and just felt just reaction just I just felt really bad about how I approached that and so about a week later I went to offer an apology and we had talked about it and that's when our kind of long drawn out situation started um so you came to do a novella yeah a scene you had a is that

it has been quite a telenovela for sure the scene yeah Yeah. It was kind of like the gotcha. Did you think about what you were going to do, or did you just storm? I very little thought went into that process. Right, right. But I wanted to have the last word. I wanted to embarrass her publicly.

I wanted the world to know that I had been hurt, that she was so quickly putting herself in bed with another man. Yeah. When I thought that what we had was slightly more important than that, that I was so easily replaceable, that I was certainly not indispensable, and then I was far from unique. Yeah, and then it was that feeling, and then it was also the, how can you say that you still love me and care about me in one breath and then do this in the next breath? Yeah.

Yeah. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin comes. Support for where should we begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business means that there's a never-ending to-do list, so finding the right tool that can help you simplify everything can be life-changing. For millions of businesses, that's a never-ending to-do list. For millions of business,

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Quo will port it over for free. Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers. So, shall we go back to the cracks? Yeah. Because the cracks is not your negative self-talk of how do you let this happen. Your cracks is your deeper needs that allowed you to lose sight. And your history, like the last sentence when you say, I'm no stranger to grief and loss. And when we act in this kind of way,

in this kind of ways. Like you say, what she said and how she acted was not aligned. You say, I was a misaligned. Something happened to me in this relationship. And maybe it's not the first time, but then we need to understand misalignments, plural. And maybe this one stood out differently from all the others. So I'm going to listen for a moment

because you're a thoughtful guy. You've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and you can connect a lot of dots. And speaking to the grief piece too, I lost my brother about seven years ago to an accidental fentanyl overdose. And that has been a huge rupture in my life. And, you know, he was my only brother. It's my best friend. We were incredibly close, close in age also. And that loss has made it really just hard internally just for me in navigating life. And it's made it hard to navigate relationships and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Oh. Hmm. What a loss. It's just been devastating. It's torn me apart and our family apart. And he was central to you when he was alive, and he's central to you when he's no longer there. Yeah.

And were there cracks with him as well? Yeah. Is that what made you go from her to him in your mind just now? Possibly, I think it was when you mentioned that I was no stranger to grief and that was the, yeah, that's the big one. Right. But it is because of the loss and the grief that you overlook the cracks. Perhaps, yeah. And then you blame yourself because you feel like you overlook the cracks with him. I struggled with that for a long time where, you know, why didn't I do more?

How did I, you know, was it my fault or? Why couldn't I have done things differently? So there is a long time where I struggled with self-blame in that. Could you? No. No, okay. We clear on that. Not really, you know, maybe a couple of things here, but see, there I go.

But we're clear on that. That wasn't your doing. Or you still doubt. Wow. I haven't asked, I haven't thought about that question in a really long time. Logically, I know the answer is no, there's nothing else I could have done, but when you said that, there's a slight felt sense of maybe. This may be, I could have done more and the sense of guilt. sometimes I think it can be interpreted in various ways. One way is I feel guilty, I feel responsible,

I take the blame, I could have done more, I could have prevented. But there's another side sometimes I think that we hold on to that little part that says I could have done more because on some level feeling guilty may at times be better than feeling helpless. yeah do you understand yeah it's a strange thought maybe yeah yeah i couldn't do anything sometimes it's worse oh then i could have done something more this is i reasoned for you yeah i remember um starting therapy very soon after he passed and that

conversation is now ringing a bell yeah so make the connection between the cracks with him and the cracks with her hmm or the grief let's see okay this I think would be useful for you to know one of the cracks early on we would you know, go get drinks or go out for dinner or have a night in and maybe have a glass of wine. And I noticed that it was with her, it was never just a glass of wine with dinner. It was refill after refill from the time she got home until the time, it was time for bed. And there were some similarities in terms of addiction and I think part of that was a huge overlap and part of that was I remember noticing that and just like okay maybe we're just not aligned here

and no ill will or anything but then I think I tried to make it my job to like help her see or notice or I'm worried, I'm concerned, and it turned into that type of dynamic, in part. And the question that you have, the one that circles back at you, is what? The first thing that comes to mind just in a line with what we've been talking about is, could I have done anything different? And logically, the answer is no. but it's not a feeling could I have done

anything different to could I have shown up differently could I have asked better questions could I have been more compassionate could I have you know helped her more could I have resolved conflict better

and not gotten so hot-headed at times And I would get particularly hot-headed when? I think usually it involved jealousy or not feeling like I was enough or with all the effort I put forth feeling just not recognized or valued. And that is a feeling that was exclusive

to her or you have known that in other relationships romantic relationships you may not have it in your friendships no not to this degree ever no no this was unique yes but you chose a woman who makes content

where she exhibits herself to other men so you're going to get a different dose of it yeah you know that's a suppose it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Talk to me about jealousy. I'm not sure where to start or how to start.

Jealousy usually involves a triangle in this context. Somebody else gets more. Do I matter? Will I be left? Am I enough? We envy things that we haven't had, and we are jealous about things we fear losing. That's one of the dozens of ways to distinguish between them.

Jealousy is I don't trust. Therefore, I put surveillance in place to help me trust, but surveillance is about control and not about trust because trust is about dealing with that which you don't know and which is filled with uncertainty. That's why the word trust exists. Yeah.

The more I put surveillance, the less I trust, the more I need to put more surveillance. More the person that's with me often says, I need some air. And their need for air makes me feel like I choke. you've answered me with your head. So then let me push harder and then it just perpetuates the cycle, yeah.

Okay. So now shall we talk about jealousy in your own words? I think jealousy in part is it's seeing the effort and care you put forth not being reciprocated. I think that's one way to think of it. And then there's that jealousy that comes in of, like, why isn't that coming back to me? You know. You mean, an example? I think one example is just, like, not feeling enough.

I mean, that's not specific, but just, like, one, I guess, an example of that would be, like, why wasn't it enough? when I would comfort her when she was feeling distraught and depressed and like nothing mattered. Why wasn't it enough that I helped support her through processing her divorce or why wasn't it enough when I held space for while she broke plates on the ground? Why wasn't it enough that like why wasn't I enough? I gave, I held, I cleaned, I supported, and still it wasn't enough. And at that moment, you think, why am I not enough? Or do you also ask yourself, what would make it enough for her? And what does enough mean?

And enough for what? Enough to stay, enough not to leave, enough enough to what? enough to be loved do you ever think that with your brother too not with the love piece no it's more of the change and maybe I think that was part of it as well how come it isn't enough for them to change

and I know you can't love someone out of addiction logically but that's not what we're dealing with here why wasn't enough to help them or you know why wasn't i enough to help her see that life is worth living why wasn't i enough to help her stop doing content on only fans that part she didn't she didn't know that i knew about that never i don't think she ever did that would have been even better, that she could have stopped without even knowing that you knew just because you were so important that it would make her want to change. Why wasn't I important enough on the drinking? Yes. Why wasn't I important enough for her not to want other lovers? Yeah.

Wasn't I good enough? Did they do it better? Yeah. What else? I think those are pretty good right there. And it's funny because I've had connections since where I feel like the roles have been kind of reversed. And if I'm imagining it as I experienced it on kind of the flip side, sometimes it's just, I remember I wasn't in a place to want the same things they wanted romantically. Or there's times where they were just personal preferences that weren't aligned. or, you know, it wasn't through any faults of the other person themselves. And you use that to remind yourself?

You know, not out loud like that just now, but I have kind of gone there to give, you know, some more compassion or understanding for another's experience. No, I was thinking actually in reverse that you have actually brought that understanding of the fact that it wasn't about that. them and made that become a source of greater compassion for you. Wow.

Oh, my goodness. I've never, I don't know if I've considered it like that before. Wow. You know, just seeing the level of effort and engagement and kindness and generosity, I know I wasn't always reciprocating that to the same degree. But feeling that from someone else, it was kind of hard to, well, I enjoyed it, but it also made it hard knowing that I didn't, the feelings weren't mutual reciprocal to the same degree.

And so just kind of realizing, oh, wait, that was me. and despite their best efforts or attempts or how they tried to care for me or love me that I wasn't ready or willing or to give it back in the same way and then applying that to myself. Applying it to yourself is one thing and remembering this the next time you break up with someone. That doesn't mean people always believe it when we say it's not about you.

But sometimes it's exactly that. It's not about you. We just don't click or it's not happening for me. But it's not because you're not enough. It's because I'm looking for something else. But what you are is just fine.

And it will be exactly what someone else is hoping for. I think now it's just finding the mutuality there, being patient. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the try-free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

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Hello, Ben. And the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre to donate? And I know that I'd have them offer. But I guard the Summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm, I'm sure. The most ensembles,

the Candole of the Feds'AWRewty Way, Cipora Collection, and other part of Vite. Procurring you, Corma Stombered for a better quality of price. on Siphora.com or in magazine. Is the piece about only fans important

in the story? Yeah. Especially since you didn't tell it to her, but you went digging deep. Yeah, and I discovered that, and she never knew that I discovered that. I never told her that I did. What made you go look?

Just prior inklings, like, was I right? But she had told you? No, she never told me. it would continue. She had told me it was years prior in a different location, you know, years prior. And then I had remembered just that feeling of not trusting that. I remember during the conversation, you know, it was kind of, I was, I wasn't, I wasn't happy. I was kind of withdrawn and kind of like quiet and asking about it. And I remember her saying that it was not, something that was currently happening and she had didn't remember exactly some of the things

she had done. And that was the part that made me more frustrated was that, you know, I just want you to be straight with me. I think you'd remember and that whole thing. And then it just turned sour. But months later, while we weren't speaking anymore, I had kind of just like, okay, like I remembered that feeling. Maybe I was right, you know, and not trusting that. And so I had kind of done some investigating and found what I was looking for. And I think that part was hurtful to be like, oh, no, I should have trusted my gut. I was, you know, right to not. And then what?

And then what? I know. And then what? So you would have known that it still continues. And what did you find? I mean, you know, I should have known doesn't necessarily tell you what you would have done with the knowledge. Exactly. And then when we attempted to reconnect platonically, I still had that information and never disclosed it, which I don't know if that's just as bad, not sharing that to give someone else the information to make an informed decision whether they would want to continue a friendship or not.

Did I withhold it to protect her or did I withhold it because to protect me? What you think? Part of it is, oh, at first I wanted to kind of like gotcha, but it's like, no, that's a dick move. I don't want to really do that. even though it would feel good and make me feel shitty later. Maybe it was just not wanting to rupture that connection again, but then it's still built on a cracked foundation of not being honest. I don't know. And what bugged you is the fact that it went on longer or the fact that it existed?

I think it's the fact that it existed or just the dishonesty around it. that was the biggest crack for me because then I didn't have the information to make an informed decision about how to move forward. What does it represent for you? So if she had told you, it still continues, what is it that you would have to make a decision about? Whether to stay or go, probably. Yeah.

But that's a question you asked yourself all along. that information didn't change that because part of why you stayed is because of the friendship, the humor and all of that but part of why you stayed had to do with the deep attraction you had to her too. Yeah. If I understood that.

She is the only woman in the room to me. Okay. All right. So let's talk about the attraction and the sex, basically. because that's a piece of here. It's the sex with the other man. It's the sex or it's the allure of other people looking at her. It's the excitement you felt when you went to look.

It's the jealousy you felt. There's a combination of things that are part and parcel of this whole. If you had been slightly less attracted to her, you would have been gone. Then that might be fair to say. Good. One truth. Out. Because part of why you don't stay with some of the other women

often has to do with not attracted enough. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes, not often. Okay. But it's an important piece. It's always there. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. It's okay. I'm fishing. Yeah. See what you catch. I see what I catch exactly. Because we can go in many different directions,

but I sense that it's easier to go in the direction of the grief and the loss and the breakup than to actually, because that's more familiar to you. If I take you into the kind of the labyrinth of the erotic mind and how all of that mixes in with sex and desire and attraction and jealous, and masculinity and all of that, then it's a little more complicated. Yeah. I'm also tracking how, for many of us,

what is emotionally challenging can also be sexually exciting. What pains us emotionally can turn us can turn us on sexually. I think there are times where I'm very confident and flirtatious and can approach women in that way. And I think there's times where that ebbs and flows of feeling like confident and attractive and things like that.

But I think you're also right in a sense of like, I don't know if there's a fear or a worry about cultivating a loving and nurturing long-term relationship where you know it's more than just like the attraction piece it's like the character and the values and the um you know doing life with someone um have you had yeah you've had it yes uh we worked together when my brother passed and there are times that i still kind of feel guilt or give myself a hard time about not doing better. But we're planning a future together, talking about getting married, buying a house, like all that, you know, the white picket fence and all that. And there were already some, a couple of cracks there that were hard for us. But I think

with my brother passing, I just, I spiraled and it just was so hard on both of us. And And, you know, especially me, but then being together with my brother paths, I made it really, really hard. And so sometimes I worry about having something like that again and whether, I don't know if it's the fear of messing it up or if it, you know, I don't know. Why did you just see or think about or remember? you guys just went somewhere. I remember drinking heavily to cope afterwards. I remember her comforting me while I was crying, lying in the shower, wanting to no longer be alive. And it wasn't that I wanted to die.

It's just that it hurts so damn bad. Of course. You know, I know I can finally hear certain songs without crying. Years later, almost, four years later. She saw you in the shower and what happened. She just held my hand. But you're saying, I was too bereft and in too much pain to pay attention to the relationship.

I think that was a part of it for sure, yeah. And I think that came into this most recent, the conversation we've been having. I remember on the second date with that person, shifting gears now. I remember a song came on that reminded me and my brother, and I chose not to change the track and I just had this lone tear kind of run down my cheek and I remember she put her hand online

and I was just like sold you know just like you know just someone being there and just being present and like having that compassion and like I care you know that was huge for me

I actually I was thinking when you talk we're less connecting dots and we're more walking on a beach of pebbles and we're picking up little pebbles each of them telling a little piece of the story and then we're putting them back

and then sometimes we put them next to another pebble and so the stories connect and sometimes not because we won't have a chance to lift more pebbles than that. But this piece about she held my hand in the shower. She put her hand on me

when a tears trimmed down my face when I listened to a song that reminded me of my brother. These gestures of tenderness run very, very deep. They run really to the place of I am enough. Someone sees me. someone can hold my sadness my fear my vulnerability my pain they just hold it they do nothing

they don't embarrass me they don't shame me they just put a hand on me and I continue crying I think it's the feeling of just feeling seen and just being really vulnerable and not being okay and not, you know, someone not being scared of it or running from it and just being like, I'm here, I'm here through it, I got you. Yeah. You know. That is hugely important for you. And lives on the other side of the jealousy.

You don't scare me. You don't make me run away. I see you. I'm here for you. I got you. It's the opposite. Yeah. of what we feel when we are jealous or when we feel bereft.

I had a thought because we're going to need to end. Would you like to dedicate this session to your brother? Yeah, that would be great. Go ahead. Oh, man. If I could say anything to you right now, it's just I miss you. I miss feeling your hugs and your handshake and hearing your laugh. There's so many stories I wish I could tell you.

I'm sure you'd laugh at many and knock me upside the head for a few. But I don't think I'd be where I am now had you not left. It's been quite a journey of self-discovery and grief and mourning and trying to reevaluate my own life and where I want it to go and how I want it to look and how I want to feel it. And you've given me that gift. in the most messed up way possible. But, yeah, you really helped me become,

really helped me become, rather have you here. But thanks for that, ma'am. Love you. Thank you. Thank you. Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to,

producer at esteraparell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded so you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a

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