Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - I Deserve to Be a Mother

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

She longs for a child, but her partner isn’t there yet, and as a trans woman she already faces other barriers to parenthood. She worries she’s letting her partner’s indecision dictate her own future happiness. She and Esther navigate the delicate dance between exerting her own wishes within the relationship, without letting the pressure shut down the conversation altogether. The transcript for this episode is available at https://www.estherperel.com/podcasts/wswb-esther-calling-still-single-at-40. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every season for Where Should We Begin, I receive thousands of applicants. And one of the most frustrating things is that I'm only going to be able to see 10 couples. And I've been grappling with this. How can I connect with more of you? There are so many powerful questions, so many pain points that I would like to be able to at least address with you, even if shortly. So this series is going to be different. It's you calling me with a very precise question, with your pain point, me calling you back. And together we think out loud and we go from where should we begin to where can you start.

Hi, Esther. I'm reaching out because I really love my partner. And this is the first time I've been feeling kind of stuck and like not sure how to move forward. The conflict is around that I know that I want to have kids and they aren't sure, which is okay. But when we first were dating, I was very clear that I knew that I wanted to have kids and that I wasn't really trying to get into a committed relationship where that wasn't, that wasn't at least a possibility. And it still is a possibility, but they don't seem any closer to figuring out if that's what they want. And I think part of it is I'm a little bit older than them, close to five years older than them.

Now I'm in my 30s now and they're just in a different stage of life. They're trying to figure out, you know, their career. They want to do some of the things like traveling and exploring that I've gotten to do. Some other factors, I'm trans, so the dating world is pretty tough and don't want to necessarily go back into it. I also think that a lot of the people who are dating trans women aren't necessarily looking to have kids, which might be a skewed perception. But like, I just don't want to find out, like five years from now, that they don't want to have kids after all. And they can't really tell me that one way or another. I would be happy to wait

for several years if I thought that they were eventually going to get there, but I don't know that they're going to get there. And I don't want to lose that much of my life before I try and start over with somebody. I mean, my partner and I have been talking about possible options for us to consider, some kind of ethical non-monogamy structure for parenting, but I don't know what that would look like for our relationship. Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but hopefully you have some idea of what I would like to talk about and let me know if this is something that you think you could help with. Thank you. Hello, hello. Hi. How are you? I'm nervous, but good.

Shall I tell you that I'm nervous every time as well? Because, first of all, I'm always so honored that someone thinks, I want to bring one of the important questions of my life to this woman. That is really an honor. And I want to do right by you so i want to um ask you to just phrase the question and the essence of the question one more time because it may also have evolved since you first connected with us yeah thank you um well I think that there's a lot of different corners and angles to it. But the basic essence of it is that I'm in a very committed, loving relationship.

And the sort of current central conflict is that I know that I want and intend to have kids someday. And my partner is very not sure if that's what they want. And it's not something that I need to happen right now, but it would be, it feels important to know if that's a direction that we're heading in, because I feel like I've had some sort of false starts in my life before. And you know, there's additional, some barriers for me to getting, finding a healthy relationship and starting a family. Um, and, um, so it's important to me to sort of know if I'm barking up the wrong tree as much as I love this person. And at the same time, they, I think are, feel that there's a lot of pressure on them, um, to know something that they don't know yet. And I, I really hear that and want to respect that

and also not sort of betray myself and the future that I feel certain I'm supposed to have. Can I ask you something? I guess that's where I'm feeling stuck, yeah. What do you mean by false starts? I was in a four-year relationship that culminated in a marriage and divorce shortly thereafter during which I was a stepmom for that time and I really took to it and loved it and I had thought that that was going to be my family and that that was my child. So there's a lot of loss there for me.

You have no contact anymore with the child? No. I mean, not really. I sometimes send postcards or presents on holidays, but it's a complicated, it's a very complicated situation but no I don't really I don't have a meaningful relationship anymore I don't have a parenting role for sure when you say I want to have a family I want to unpack that with you because there's many ways to family and family building and what what is involved in the statement, I want to have a child, is it I want it to be mine? Because when it wasn't mine, I co-parented a child but lost all access to the child.

Yes, yes. And therefore, you believe that a biological link would correct that. I hear a number of different layers to the story here, and I want to make sure that I understand them. Yeah, what you just said resonates a lot, that feeling of having a parent-child bond and then losing it was the most painful thing that I felt in my life. It was not an amicable split up. So yeah, I think definitely a big of them for me are complicated and costly but I have some resistance to the idea of adoption I think mainly because it involves it would involve somebody judging my fitness as a parent that's's, yeah, I don't know.

So I actually, I have, I have some, you know, genetic materials stored, and it's possible to have a biologically related child. But I mean, that's not, I mean, that's not even really the question with my partner. It's more like, whether we're going to parent together at all, regardless of the route we take. And whether you need to wait for your partner to say yes for you to be able to proceed. Whether this becomes a joint decision. Must it be a joint decision must it be a joint decision is it something that you would

only do if you do it together or would you consider co-parenting with someone else so i've i'm throwing things out yeah no i appreciate that i I've brought the idea of us staying a couple and me co-parenting with somebody else I've brought that up before and it wasn't like completely rejected but then if I tried to talk about it in more concrete terms concrete uh, yes, then it becomes it, that, that conversation didn't go well. And, and we agreed that we weren't going to talk about it anymore without help. We're actually going to start seeing a couples therapist later today. So you had really good timing. I'm the prelude to the couples therapy. you're you're you can maybe help me know what direction to go in I mean you you've given a direction right now you're beginning to edit

the story right what are the possibilities possibilities are I wait for my partner to say okay I'm into this I want this too let's go's do this together. I say this does not need to be. A relationship can be a romantic relationship that does not involve co-parenting. And I do a co-parenting agreement with someone else who wants to have a child. It's, I mean, it's possible. I, I just, um, it just makes it so complicated. Yeah. Yes, it is different. It's maybe more complicated because it requires spelling things out and really being very clear and making very intentional agreements.

But it is not necessarily more complicated if your partner says, no, this is not for me or if you need to make a decision between do I stay with them or do I leave because of the possibility that we may not align I'm afraid of a how it would affect our relationship. I mean, we live together. It's hard to imagine raising a child in a home that I share with my partner with them not, I mean, I just don't think that would work. They would become responsible in a way that they maybe are not prepared to be. And then I think also when I've talked about some of these ideas, they feel like I'm making contingency plans.

That's a phrase they used. And I don't think that feels good to them either. And the meaning of contingency plans here is? Like, I'm just just I don't know waiting for them to tell me yes or no and then I'm going to just move forward with my life without them I guess um I don't know if I want this with you but I don't want you to go ahead and do this without me. Yeah. That's a bit of a bind. A little bit.

What I am concerned is that what starts out as a conversation and a negotiation about family formation turns into a bit of a power struggle. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want that. Right? What you can do without me that I will accept, that I won't accept, that you shouldn't do because I should be with me, but you can't do it with me until I want to do it with you. So if we're going to be creative,

we need to be able to really spell out different storylines. That's scary. I come from a family. My parents have been together my whole life. When we grew up in one house, I have siblings. We all got along I just in some ways like my being trans was like the big departure from the sort of script and yeah that was scary but it was necessary and I um I'm glad I I transitioned but I guess I don't I don't want to upend the rest of the script yeah like there's things in that in that script that I

don't necessarily hate like I had a really happy childhood and I yes I sort of like that it wasn't too complicated. Yes, yes, yes. What is the scary? Just things getting messy and falling apart. I don't want things to fall apart again. Yeah, okay. And that goes right back to the relationship that you had before. Yeah.

Right. So your family stands as a beautiful example. And the example may be because of the norms that your family inhabited and because of your family's relationships with each other. And there's a part of you that now thinks the whole thing fell apart with my ex because the whole thing was structurally unsound to begin with yeah it feels that way sometimes yes but also i know i think rationally that that's not true that some of it was just like the person. Like it wouldn't be like that with anybody necessarily. Okay, you do know that.

But the loss was so painful, right? You got very attached to the child and maybe to your ex too. And you didn't want this to end. And so there's a part of you that wonders if i go back to more traditional structures maybe it would prevent from this kind of dissolution and fallout to happen again yeah yeah makes sense may not be true but makes sense yeah and i wish i could say to you that traditional structures are more solid and more reliable and less messy but i can invite you to go have a couple of conversations with divorce lawyers that should clear you up yeah yeah i know that's true you know the the loss is really painful and you're trying to find a way to prevent that from happening again so there's two missions as i hear there is one is how do i go about having a child but the other one is how do I go about making sure that I don't lose a child again?

Yeah. And does it mean it's my sperm? Does it mean the conception takes part in the context of my relationship? We carry the child. We give birth to the child. And all these milestones will make it more clear that this is my child. But all in all, what I'm really wanting is not to have to go through this pain again. Yes. Yeah, I understand that. I feel like I know what I need to do,

and I would love for them to be part of it. Obviously, that's what I want. But if they decide that that's not for them, I don't need them to be part of that with me. I want that, but I don't need that. So I'm really trying to walk that line of not putting that responsibility on them and also not having it be like an ultimatum. But I just I don't know how to find that place. The ultimatum being if you're not if you don't join me, we will not stay together.

Or if you don't join me, I will go ahead and find a way of doing this while we are continuing together too. I think that either of those feel like open to negotiation for me. What I feel a lot of resistance to is the idea of just let's wait and see. Yeah, because let's wait and see may feel to you that one more time, it's the other person's life that determines yours. Yes. Yes, that's it. And that that had really painful consequences for you. And you gave yourself up in more ways than one and you were left with what you think is nothing yeah not nothing I mean I actually it's true it's not nothing you want to say I can correct myself

you're absolutely right I I mean I still have those experiences and those memories. And yes, I always thought I'd wanted to have kids. But now I know. Now I know. Yes. That I am good at it. And yes, I'm supposed to be a mom. Yes. Yes. Yes, absolutely. It's exactly it's actually what you're left with is the conviction that this is exactly what you want, what you deserve to have, and what you long for in your life. But I know that now, and I don't need the pain for that lesson. I don't need that lesson again.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so good that you said no, not nothing, because you're right. You actually were left with one of the most important truths for you? And it would be so simple if they said, yeah, I can see us going there someday. That sounds like what I would want for our future. And then I could just coast. I feel like that would be fine. The idea, I mean, it's about them and how much I value our relationship and how safe and supported I feel with them in particular.

And it's also about, I don't want to go back out there again. It's not easy dating as a trans woman. And it's not, from my experience, often the people who want to date me are the people who are looking for a partner who they aren't going to have kids with, if that makes sense. So you feel, tell me if that's if that resonates that you came out of your experience with your ex and the child with a clear sense that yes you can be a mom you should be a mom you want to be a mom and you deserve to be a mom but society hasn't caught up with you yeah does your partner say no not interested period does your partner say you can't force me or put this on me i need to decide alone um i feel the pressure. Um, what's the dance in terms of, um,

They'll say, they'll say that that feels like a lot of pressure. They'll say that they don't want to feel like I'm just waiting around for them to catch up. Um, but they won't, they don't say that they don't want to, or that they do. I mean, that's part of the issue for me is that if they said that they don't want to or that they do. I mean, that's part of the issue for me is that if they said that they thought they would, that would be great. So the interesting thing here is that

you may have a situation where your partner doesn't know what they want, partly because your wanting is so central to them. So they're always in a reactive stance. Yeah, we've polarized a little. And so this may be also an issue of needing to create more space between the two of you so that they can think without having your thoughts cloud their head all the time. And then it becomes a bit of a battle for autonomy. The only way I know what I want is by

not wanting what you want. The only way I know what is mine is when it's different from yours. How do I ease up the pressure without feeling like I'm... It's not all you're doing, by the way. It's not all you're doing. You need to be able to say, I want this, without it instantly being a pressure. But at this point, you're right. It's become polarized. You can't say it without them instantly having to think, what does that mean for me?

What do I have to do? It's like you say, I'm hungry, and the other person says, okay, I need to get up and cook. They actually feel that way sometimes. If I notice an issue around the house, they feel like I'm telling them to do something about it in that moment. And that's not usually what I mean at all. Okay. So that is couples therapy work. How do I express a feeling without your experiencing a command, a demand, a criticism? If you are at a situation where you can't have a conversation about this anymore, because you say, I feel, and the other person says, and therefore, what must I do? Then you have a very good beginning for your therapy this

afternoon. Because then it's no longer about the topic itself. The dynamic has replaced the topic. And this is a common issue. So you think if we use therapy to focus more on that general dynamic, then it might help with the more specific cases, even if they're more fraught? Yes. Yes, I do. I mean, that would be my thinking. Okay. If I was the couples therapist in this instance, which I have often been, I would say, whenever you get stuck around a topic in a relationship, you always want to go look other places. What are the other topics that go through the same dance? And when that is not there, how do these two people actually talk about things where they don't get stuck in this way so you want to circumvent you want to go around so indeed if when you say i want to have a child and they say that puts pressure on me that i have to instantly respond to you because i feel responsible because i feel responsible, because I feel like

you're not just telling me what you feel, you're telling me what I should do and on and on. Then I say, is that the case if your partner says, I'm cold or I'm tired or I'm hungry? Do you instantly feel, you know, that that's a criticism of you,

that that puts pressure, that you should do something or should have done something even then we're talking about you know the nature of the connection and the closeness between the two of you and how can we make that a little bit looser not to have less connection but to have it less fraught because then the person can think, what is at stake for me in wanting or not wanting to have a child? Is it about having a child? Is it about carrying a child? Is it about giving birth? Is it about being a parent? What is it that they are thinking about when they say,

I'm not sure, I'm not ready, I don't want, this is pressure. And so instead of you're instantly asking maybe, what should I do? I think the best thing you do is you take a position of curiosity and you ask, tell me more. What do you mean? What is it for you? What do you imagine when you say this? And you invite them to just lay it out. So that they can become more clear the way that you came out with clarity from your previous

relationship. At this point, when you talk, the main thing that they are doing is trying to get you off their back. They're managing you. They're not experiencing their own feelings and thoughts. Yeah. I mean, when we talk about what we want out of therapy, I would like clarity. And I think that they would like the freedom to not have clarity, if that makes sense. Yes, but the freedom to not have clarity often produces clarity. You want assurance. It's not the same. You want a predictability of the future.

That's totally understandable, but that's not the same and in a sense by doing that you once again put yourself at the mercy of the other person's story yeah yeah no need for that repeat no it's very counterintuitive to expect that clarity will arrive if I back off. But it makes sense when we talk about it like that. Right. That's just the beginning. Because at this point, you've gotten stuck, and the first thing is you need to get unstuck. And that demands flexibility and nimbleness around the conversation. And it's not around the topic. It's around how we engage relationally vis-a-vis the topic. The form in this moment is more important than the topic for right now.

That makes sense. You have two tracks. You have the couples therapy work, and then you have the possibility of speaking with someone who negotiates multiple ways of family creation and co-parenting agreements and the like, so that you have a sense of what are the possibilities. You don't have to decide anything tomorrow. Okay. So I wish you a very good first couples therapy session. I hope this was helpful on the way to it.

I think it was very helpful. Thank you, Esther. You're welcome. Thank you. And you, Esther. You're welcome. Thank you. And let me know. So I'm looking for many ways to stay connected with you as I continue to help you

develop greater confidence and competence in your relationships. This time, it comes in the form of a game. Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories is a game that helps you connect and reconnect, deal with the social atrophy that so many of us have experienced, and unlock the storyteller within. So gather your partner, your friends, or your date. Grab a seat, pull a card, and be my guest in sharing the stories that you rarely tell. Let's play along. estherperel.com slash the game. Thank you.