Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling- I Want Her to Like Me Less

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

A woman in her 40s talks to Esther about a crossroads in her life. She has begun a relationship with a supportive and loving partner, but without the constant roller coaster of emotions she's used to, she wonders if there’s something missing. Or is there something wrong with her? Esther Callings are a one-time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I have, for the last seven years, been in an on-and-off-again relationship with a woman who I am in love with. And every time we break up, it's because she cannot give me the kind of commitment that I want. But I want to move into something more serious. Recently, I decided I can't accept the limits. And I said, I'm going to date other people. I'm 44. I want a partner. And the first person I matched with was this incredible woman. She's single. She's looking for a partner.

She's smart. She's gorgeous. And, you know, I like her. However, I want her to like me less. I keep doing things to ask her to be a little more unavailable I'm like why don't you date other people because I know if she dates other people I'm going to be more attracted to her and I don't know what is wrong with me I'm 44 I've been married and divorced I've been in almost 20 relationships and I am tired. There is something here that needs to be addressed. Metrolinx and Crosslinx are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks.

Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Hello, it's Esther. Pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet you. And shall we take a deep breath? You know, I listened very attentively to your question.

There was a lot of sadness and a lot of pain and a lot of confusion in your question. Here is how I understood it. I find myself stuck in relationships where I have to fight for crumbs or fight to be loved or fight to be wanted. And when love is given to me generously, freely, I can't take it. I can't receive it. Yeah. Yeah. God, that's hard to hear. Does that summarize it?

Because it's not the way you said it, it's the way I heard it. It is. I think it explains why it's so painful. I don't like to think of myself that way, but that is the behavior. Give me some context to this dilemma. Well, as long as I have known what it is to desire somebody, to love someone, to have a crush on someone, all of the people I wanted, I couldn't have. very young age and I've always had crushes on girls and then women and they were always straight and I was gay and I knew I couldn't have them. And so I wanted them as friends and I would just

sort of like pursue friendship and I would take whatever I could get. I mean, that's how I was in high school. And so I have always loved loving other women. And that I think has just followed me into adulthood. The way that I get excited about somebody is like wanting to have them. That's what loving looks like to me, is pursuing and getting. And not getting. Sure. Wanting to get, but not getting. Mostly. Right. mostly right so

you've told me what one facet of your experience of loving is how would you describe your experience of being loved in relationships I In relationships?

Um, I... You seem surprised by the question. You're so busy with the other side. Right. My pursuing, my making you love me, my making you want me, my extracting is from you, that when I ask you, what's the experience of being loved, which you have been plenty, but unable to receive? I think maybe just because I don't think about. Yeah. I don't think about that.

How weird is that? That is weird. That is weird. I think about it when I'm single and I'm like, what do I want? Who do I want? I want somebody who's going to do X, Y, and Z. But when I think back to the relationships with people that I was like in love with, I don't remember feeling like the best parts of it were about me being loved by them. It was like about me getting to be with them, which is wild.

And in fact, I'm a little uncomfortable with the situation I'm in right now, which is that there is a woman who likes me very much and who I like very much and who, like on paper and in real life, is amazing. And she tells me she's attracted to me. She tells me she likes my mind. She likes the things about me that I like about me. We laugh. We have so much in common. But when she tells me that I'm so beautiful or that I'm so smart, it makes me uncomfortable. And I tell her, I really wish you wouldn't say that so much. So you tell her, I wish you wouldn't say this so much.

And I would tell you, I wish you may ask yourself, what is it about the vulnerability of being chosen, of being given to, that makes me so scared and cringe? When I'm pursuing and not getting, I don't really feel that vulnerability. I'm in a fight. I'm going to get. I'm going to win. I'm striving. When we are striving, we feel stronger, so to speak. When we are receiving, there is a form of surrender. It gives power to the other person on some level. The question is maybe less,

why do I keep pursuing people who are unavailable? And maybe more for a change. Why is it so hard for me to receive from the people who choose me? And I devalue them. There must be something missing with you because otherwise I would want it. But no, I don't want it. It has nothing to do with the other person. Right.

And you know some of this already, right? When you put it like that, yes. I have this like really crude way of thinking about people who are affectionate and loving and want to give to me, if I'm honest. And it's that like something's wrong with them. And I have like contempt for it. I don't know what it is. And you're right. Tell me something about the world that you grew up in. Because this is old.

And you can cry as much as you need. Okay. Okay. You know, I grew up, I grew up in a house with two, with parents that, you know, loved each other, but were very different and very busy. Different how? My mother met my father doing her PhD in the Caribbean and studying his community and moved back to New York after years living there with him. And he's not from here. They are an interracial couple? They're interracial. Interracial, intercultural.

They have different educational backgrounds. And they raised me and my brother in New York City with no other family around. And being at home with a father who was navigating being an immigrant in a country that's unfamiliar to him with no people. And then this very educated white woman who goes off to work and works all the time. He retreated into social spaces and not being home. I just remember growing up and like wanting attention. And I got bullied and picked on in school. I would go to my parents and I would tell them, and my mother would say, ignore it. My father would say, you know, beat them up. You know, beat them up. You know, you're big. It just felt like not seen.

And then I had this secret where I was, I knew I was gay. You know, I got so excited when I had crushes on girls at school because that was a place I just, I don't know, I felt good in those crushes. I felt excited. I remember being like, oh, I'm going to see this one on Friday and I'm going to see this one on Tuesday. And like, I lived for that. When you had crushes, you felt seen? Because you saw yourself?

I enjoyed having crushes. Like, I really felt. What about it? I know, but what about it? I just loved how much I loved these girls. Because a crush is an experience of insatiability. So you could play with the very experience that usually would be hurtful. Yeah.

I remember thinking that there were little wins that I could get. I used to make little collages and put them all over the school I went to so that the girl I had a crush on could see them and if she you know somebody came up to her and was like gosh you know she's putting all these things up for you you know it made her feel special it would make me feel special that I made her feel special it was like a win you know um yes I was staging what I wanted and didn't have in a beautiful plot line called A Crush. And I've had crushes into my 40s. They're adult versions of the same little crushes, but when I focus on someone and I obsess and I build up and I fantasize, that's a mechanism that I've put in place.

But it still doesn't answer the other side of the equation. When somebody has a crush on me. Ugh. I don't like it. it yeah but what's the it's just it's like cringe i don't i mean that sounds wild because i in theory like i i like myself i think i'm worthy i think i'm attractive and interesting and smart and funny. But like if somebody just on their own accord likes me, not because I convinced them. I don't believe them. Say more.

You know what I think it is? I think it's that I think it's about them and not me. And maybe that's because that's how I am with other people. It's not really about these girls. Like they can change. These women change. Their faces and names change. I enjoy the pursuit of them. And maybe it's that I think that that's what these women are doing with me it's that it's not really about me but I want it so bad there's this woman who I know she likes me I But that's not the same as when you say, I don't really believe that she does. And this word, I don't believe, means something else. I guess it's that I don't believe it.

She could. I don't know why it's so difficult to say this, but I just don't believe she could. That I'm truly lovable, desirable, wantable, chosen. And that I internalized something way back when. Partly with my parents, partly in my community, partly in school, partly in being gay. I know what I mean when I say in theory I know I am but in theory usually means

I don't really internalize it I don't believe it inside of me that's the cringe what do you do? you know my thought often when we have a new thought, the first thing we do is we sit with it. That's plenty.

You've just done plenty. Because you've actually allowed yourself to ask the question from the other side of where you typically place yourself because it's been easier, more comfortable, less scary. Yeah. So what do I do? I sit with this for a minute. Because I've just opened the blinds on a whole new vista of my 20-year dating life.

Oh, that's kind of painful. But yeah. And a unique opportunity. Yeah. And it, you know, it relates to the way I behave in other aspects of my life, in other areas of my life. So there's a lot of shame and self-loathing and stuff. I didn't think it lived here.

I didn't think it lived here. Yes. What did you just see? With your eyes closed, you just saw something. Hmm. Oh. Yeah. To be a 40-something black gay woman and to realize that I have a lot of self-shame and self-loathing and that I don't really like believe that I'm lovable that's really hard because I try and tell myself every day like

in spite of the world and in spite of these things like I am I am powerful and I am strong and I am good and I deserve. And so to sit with, I guess, like the basic vulnerability and humanity that everybody experiences is just difficult. I just, I don't want to believe that. But. and I am honored that you can share this with me well I'll tell you this the only reason I did this this with me. Well, I'll tell you this.

The only reason I did this was because I wanted to know what you would say. So thank you. And now that I have? Now that you have, I have to sit with it it means like facing things that i've always known that i have to do in terms of like being with myself and

not escaping because i think part of the desire and the crushes and all of that is like a way of like turning away from myself. So now I have to do that work. So I'm going to add something. You know, we sometimes think you know yourself better than anybody else I think in your case that may not be the truth I think that there are people around you that see you and know you more than you allow yourself

yeah I think that's true. And so in this moment where you find yourself stuck in a pattern of repeating and going back to a relationship that is continuously reinforcing the worst fears and confirming them, I think that the choice there needs to be clear. And your challenge is to actually allow yourself the inner battle of being loved and chosen and seen and desired. It's kind of an offer you can't refuse. It's not a torture program.

It's not an easy thing, but it is absolutely not an impossible thing either. Right. So I'm going to stop making speeches about how I am qualified, talented, competent. I mean, speeches that I absolutely don't internalize. I don't feel them. So that's why I keep repeating them. I'm going to drop inch by inch, allow myself to deepen my connection with this woman. With this one, me? With the one who chooses you. No, no, yes, we are both. The one

who chooses you is also, it happens to be a particular person, but it also is you. Yes, yes, exactly. You heard it very well. It's a parallel process. The more I choose me, the more I let you choose me. And the more I let you choose me, and the more I accept choosing myself. It's an exercise in self-acceptance. Wow. Does this land on you?

Heavy and big and all over the place and messy. But I don't feel bad. I feel hopeful. And I feel like I have to sort of change the narrative about who I am and like practice being that woman. Because the woman who I say I am and like practice being that woman because the woman who I say I am would always choose the woman who would love me. That's right.

Will you write to me? I will. And let me know where you take all of this. I will. Thank you so much, Esther. I look forward to reading it. This was an Esther Calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther,

it could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley,

Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Thank you.