Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - I'm Keeping the Baby...Now What?

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

They had a whirlwind romance, and he spun a tale of their future to come—marriage, kids, a life together. He's in his mid-forties, and she is in her late thirties, and so after only three months together, she is pregnant, and they have broken up. Now, Esther meets her the month after their breakup and tries to help her illuminate a path forward.  Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail].  Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I met this guy five months ago. We fell in love. I really took my time to get to know him because he was dating around quite a bit and never having very long-term relationships. Yeah, so for the first time in his life, he is 46 years old. He asked me to be his girlfriend and to be official. Quite early in the relationship, he told me that he knew I was the love of his life and the woman of his life. And I felt the same way about him, that he is really my guy. Quite soon, he started to push for having sex without protection,

for trying to have a baby. Maybe for giving you some background information, I had really bad results when trying to do egg freezing. So I was aware that I might have trouble falling pregnant. But what happened was like we immediately felt pregnant and were really happy about this. Quite shocked as well, but very happy. I really would love to become a mom. And I'm 37 years old and my partner as well. He loves kids and always wanted to have a family.

He just never was in a rush to do so. Quite soon after this or parallel to this, a journey started where like a few unfortunate events kind of came together. So my business partner, he really started to have a very toxic kind of way of talking to me in the office and it all escalated and in the end he kicked me out of my own company and this was really a hard blow for me as well to deal with. So long story short, I had a really bad month last month and everything kind of accumulated to the

point where I was really not well in terms of me struggling with myself and nagging about all the small things that my boyfriend did wrong. So everything was quite exhausting for a month now. And last weekend we decided to go on a little trip to Greece and we had a really good time. We were very much in love, but also the topic of marriage came up. For me, it was a natural thing that we would get married before the child arrives.

And this weekend he was like, not sure anymore if he could do that. So for me it was quite shocking that he said let's have the baby and then maybe in one or two years we can still see if we want to get married when we know each other better. And I was like shocked because I thought like we should know each other enough by now to decide to have kids. So that was really hurtful for me. I was quite emotional and he said he will think about it and discuss it with his lawyers as well. I started to just consider if it's smart to have a baby together now that we're not even sure about

each other anymore or at least he's not sure about me anymore. There is three days left to decide but I think I'm firm in my decision that I want to keep it despite all the circumstances. I'm very struggling on how to approach him, what do I do, how to respond, how to tell him my decision to keep the child and how to deal with him and his emotions and my emotions and how to open up the conversation to be constructive, to find for solutions, maybe to give us another chance. And if that's not possible, to at least be friends and having a good relationship with each other

for the sake of this kid that's going to come to the world. Support for this show comes from Indeed. this kid that's gonna come to the world. Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $100 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash Vox CA. Just go to indeed.com slash Vox CA right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Vox CA. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done.

Out. Carpet in the bathroom, like why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like, why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. So let me ask you. What's the state of the baby and what's the state of the relationship and what's the state of the individuals?

There is no relationship at all. When he sent me this lawyer letter, that was really harsh for me because I felt like now we're not a team anymore. He clearly ended it and he doesn't want to talk about it. So it's now up to me myself if I want to like do it by myself or not. So he wrote you a letter that stated that he was relinquishing any paternity rights and that this was your unilateral decision and that this would be your child and he would excuse himself of any obligation towards this child and he sent that to a lawyer? Is that what happened? He sent a copy to a lawyer and he wrote that he cannot ever imagine to have a future with me anymore. That's why he supports to have a termination of the pregnancy and that it would not be fair for the kids

to get into the world like that. And if I still decided to keep it, he would only pay the minimum, but it's not about the money. So I don't care about that part. It's just he really wanted to make very clear, I think, that he was not having, like he doesn't want the kid. He doesn't want the child or he won't recognize the child or he won't be a father to the child or he won't care for the child. There's a lot of different levels here.

I think all of them. I'm not sure legally what's possible, what's not. And I don't even know at that stage if I want to force him, if that's legally possible, or if I just want to do it by myself. I just then knew I had to take this decision by myself. Tell me about the decision. Oh, I was really scared. It was very scary to start up doing this by myself.

But at the same time, I felt this baby growing for three months inside me. I understood something was happening in my body. I could see a little bump forming. So in the end, like my parents said, they were retired now and live an hour away. They can support me, but I'm strong enough that I could do it by myself. In the end, I just couldn't terminate it, so I decided to keep it. And then I texted him that I made up my decision,

my mind about it, and that it's a girl. We learned that that day as well. That I'm very sorry how everything escalated a week earlier and that I'm very sorry he felt so pressured and that I'm very sorry we had such a bad month. And then the next day he wanted to have a chat so I kind of knew because it was one day prior to this window closing of having a termination, I knew he wanted to kind of convince me again of having an abortion. And then we met and he didn't want to have a hug to say hi. And he was very cold and very, well, he really pressured me and he wanted to scare me how I would be like a single mom and it would be hard for me to find love again and all of that stuff and how unfair it is towards the kid, towards me, towards

him. And when that strategy didn't work he said like if you really love me you terminate the pregnancy because then we can have another chance with our relationship, we can try to build up our relationship again. Like I felt like that was like a manipulation. So I did not really react to this. And then he went back to threatening me. He was like, we will have like years of lawyer fights. And I was like, why I don't want anything from you. And he was like, yeah, but still we will not have a relationship and I will not accept the child. And he was really angry and really cold and yeah.

But in effect, each of you, I mean, this was a very difficult decision for you to make and to make in such a completely different context from how the child had been conceived, let's put it like that. And the sad part here is that each of you has felt completely manipulated by the other. I mean, this supposedly beautiful, nascent love story unraveled in super speed by two people who feel that they were tricked by the other.

What I'm not sure I understand is, how did it switch for him from, let's have a baby together, to, I don't. Because you kind of say, I had a tough month, but that doesn't really, a tough month doesn't create that kind of consequence. So what happened there? So I think a big part plays that he's very used to be in control. He's very used to always have the last say in things and to take decisions actively.

So I think he feels absolutely scared now that he was not in control of the situation anymore. Even though he said like, in the end, it's your decision while we were still together in this and like he was comforting me when I was sad that he said he doesn't want to marry me now. He was still comforting me and we were kind of together in this and together having to decide about this. So at that stage, I did not realize that yet. And the next day when he assumed we're having an abortion and that really scared me because for me that day I was already thinking like, no, I could never,

like I already love this kid. It was made on purpose and we wanted this. And it was such a miracle that it even happened. So I probably can't terminate the pregnancy. And even if he was not a person used to be in charge and in control, you were making a decision that de facto had the power to keep him connected to you for the rest of his life in a way that he was not participating in the decision. I think first it was even the opposite. Like when he realized that I got unsure if we can keep the baby, I think first it was even the opposite, like when he realized that I got unsure if we can keep the baby, I think that's when he shifted, where he lost control, which made

him build the wall up and be like, okay, so I take the decision, we're not having the baby. So I think it even happened because I started to doubt it. How much have you shared of this with the people that are close to you? Who knows? I share with my family, with my friends. I have a lot of good people around me that really support me well. Because you may not have your child with your partner, but that doesn't mean that you have your child alone. Yeah. So, if you're not going to have your child in the context of a monogamous, exclusive,

heterosexual, romantic relationship, that doesn't mean that on the other side, there is only I have the child by myself. It's going to mean that you have to create a different set of ideas and realities about other ways to have a child outside of this context and this narrative that you had. You married and you have a child and you, you know, here you're going to have a child that is going to potentially be more part of a larger community rather than a single marriage, at least for now.

Yeah. What I struggle with so much is like, nothing terrible happened. Nobody cheated on no one. Nobody lied, nobody stole. Like we just had a tough month and a big fight and that was it. So I don't see why we need to be so rude to each other, why we need to completely end conversation with each other. Like if nothing else, how could we, how could I convince him that at least a friendship

should be possible for the sake of this little girl that should have a relationship to her father as well. And he's a great guy. I love him, but yeah, I just fear that I don't know what to do if there is things I could say that would like soften him again. How much have you told him the weird what you've just told me? Ah which part? I'm confused what happened to us. What happened to us? We had our first big argument. How did that completely derail us? How did it trigger in us, elicit in us such powerful reactions

where we lost any trust that was just burgeoning between the two of us to begin with. How did I basically want to convince you? I think the word you've used many times here is to convince. You wanted to convince him that he should marry first. You wanted to convince him that now maybe he should stay friends with you. You want to convince him that he really wants to have a child because you know how much he loves children. That doesn't mean he wants to be in the situation that he's now currently in.

So I think from the convincing and the persuading and the changing his mind and the coaxing, we need to shift probably to something that is a little bit more of an offer and an invitation. I said that like when he tried to convince me we should terminate, like I said, look, my decision is made and it's up to you. Like you're warmly welcome to participate in the pregnancy, in the kid's life, but you don't have to.

And he said, no, I don't want this. And you're welcome to invite him again, just to say when he writes to you, what does he write to you now? Well, only like more than a week ago now. He said again, just don't be selfish It's not fair for the baby nor to us that he would Come with me for having a termination, but he kind of knows that it's legally not even possible anymore

I don't know what this idea is there We have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Every business is looking to build a lasting relationship with its customers. That means cultivating reliability and trust. And that might sound simple, but if you're a small business owner, you know that it's easier said than done. If you want to build your business on a rock-solid foundation that your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify.

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Plus with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, and you only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed, and listeners to this show will get a $100 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at at indeed.com slash vox ca just go to indeed.com slash vox ca right now and support this show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast indeed.com slash vox ca terms and conditions apply hiring indeed is all you need i think that the goal is not do i do I reach out or do I leave him alone?

There's a lot of space in between. But at some point, there is a place to just say, what happened to us? How did we unravel so fast? Neither of us are actually in the situation that we were hoping for. We opened big dreams for each other and we created a massive disillusion in 48 hours. What happened to each of us? Maybe what happened was not only between us, but also inside each of us. I know that you see my decision as only selfish

and careless and disregarding of you. I don't, but I could see why you would. We have life in front of us and a baby who is not born yet. And that gives us both the opportunity to also change some of our rigidity and our beliefs and our disappointments and our expectations that have turned into resentments. So that invites me and you, not just him, both of you. Because right now you are writing the story. It's also the story that you will one day tell your child. No, I only want to tell her that we made her with a lot of love.

Mm-hmm. Right. And then at some point, the plot thickens. I know that you're going to want to tell a beautiful story. But he is also a writer of that story. So it's a set of questions that you want to invite him with cross the Rubicon over to your side. Yeah. That your view is right, that your fantasy is the beautiful one, and that he should cross over. So, he may not change his mind, and that doesn't mean that he won't change his behavior.

He doesn't have to agree with you in order to become involved with the kid. He may continue to hold on to his conviction and still decide at some point to have a relationship, to recognize the child before anything else. It's just simply the legal recognition too. But I would invite more a set of questions and reflections than a list of persuasions. No, you're right. Yes. And to say to him, I'm thinking that both of us will probably still have a load of different

thoughts. And if there is room for us to have conversations about this, because at this point, the conversation was one thing only. It went from convincing you to have a kid, to take off the protections, and to go for it, to then convincing you not to. And you convincing him yes to. He became very rigid, very stiff, very fast. Yes or no?

Kid, no kid. My way, your way. And if you got into that so quickly around this, this was a fault line that was going to happen in your relationship no matter what. He may be somebody who likes to be in control, but you don't seem to be someone who doesn't stand up for herself either. in control, but you don't seem to be someone who doesn't stand up for herself either. No, exactly. So if anything is to happen and if you are to continue to have either platonic co-parenting or friendship or a romantic relationship in all three cases, it will demand that you have

a different way of handling disagreement and differences. So what do you know about you and how you were handling it with him, away from the specific topic and towards the process itself? I know that I really struggled that last month to have constructive discussions in terms of sending messages that talked about my feelings rather than blaming. Because I was really not well, I did not have the strength anymore to convey those messages in a nice way, in a constructive way that would have helped him to hear me. Can you give me an example?

I think I knew very well who he was in terms of his lifestyle. He loves to party, he loves to drink, he loves to take drugs sometimes. He told me much less than he actually did. So I started to complain about that. So I think I was just complaining about many things. So he felt like he was not accepted anymore as a person. I think it's kind of true that I do have high expectations, but it definitely, like normally in a normal state, I would also be very much picking my fights and knowing what things I could let go and what things I would complain about

and how I would complain about them. And this was after three months? Well, after four months, I would say, but three intense months. Very fast. So I think when something like this happens after two years, he probably knows better who I am. And I think now he's at the stage of, he just doesn't like me in general, he complains, she complains about everything I am,

which is very true. Is that true because of this month that was so difficult for you, or is that behavior that is familiar to you? As I said, I think I am someone who expects a lot, but that is something that's familiar to me. But I think usually I am much smarter about how to voice what I need and what I appreciate. I'm better at also filtering like what's worth it to ask for and what's not.

What do I have to live with? I'll ask it from his point of view. So he ends up in a place where we barely met and she's already complaining, criticizing, nagging, chopping at me, wanting to change me. I'm 47, I'm not a spring chicken. And this person needs to understand that I come rather fully formed. And part of you says, I'm smarter usually.

But this description of, she's critical, he's the first one to say that, because you've had other relationships too. No, that's definitely true. So I am, yes. No, I am. I honor it. I honor your honesty. And there's a part of you that would like to put it more in the context of I had a hard month.

But there's a part of you that knows. And the difference is that he saw it faster than others. And that maybe at other times when you're wiser or smoother or more graceful about it, it takes them longer to identify it. But in fact, they land in the same place. It was never enough that somebody ended the relationship with me. Yes. Yeah.

Right. So the difference is that he saw it fast. And having a child with you was associated with living with you. And living with you was associated with having to be under the microscope of you. Yeah. I'm really complaining probably. Yeah. He's triggered big time by that. I know that. Yeah. From his family background as well. From his family background. Meaning?

Like his mother and his sister are very dependent on his father and on him financially. And the same time, like, especially his mother would complain a lot about the father and also like, like they had a difficult time in their marriage as well. But like, I think he felt always that it was not good to stay in a relationship that was not healthy, especially being dependent on the man but still complaining about him. I think that's a big trigger and a big fear of it. He met me as well. I think that also added to it. He met me as a successful businesswoman. And yeah, when shit went down with my business

partner last month, I think that also is kind of feeding into his fear. What if she is now kind of only focusing on the family and she gets very dependent on me, which is not my plan, but I think that's something that triggers in this. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And on the other side, for you? My parents are divorced, but they were together for 30 years, and they're very, like, they have a good friendship now.

So for me, how I grew up is like that was love. I was shocked when they actually split up and Fighting was kind of it happened. Sometimes it can be loud It can be like you can say hurtful things sometimes but you don't mean it because you know, we love each other but for me, I feel very safe and secure in like a relationship and I feel like it's worth it to fight for it until you really don't have the same destination in life anymore. That's when you have to part

ways. But until then I would fight for it. And I would also like, of course, like my family, my friends would be like, he treated you so poorly now, why would you like you should be glad to have this person out of her life. But I'm like, I see like someone who's really, really scared and kind of cornered, like a hurt animal that's cornered. And he's just fighting for his life to get back control and power. So I kind of see him that way. So I feel like it's not, it's not him treating me so poorly. It's just out of his fear and out of his impulses that he treats me like that. You know, historically, men could impregnate women and women couldn't do anything about it. and women couldn't do anything about it. Today, in the West, often, two people can decide to want to have a kid,

and one person, she, can decide that she wants to keep it. It's not fair. And it's a power struggle. It's a, who owns this decision? Is it a we? Is it an I? I thought it was the decision. Yeah.

And only at the moment where he ended everything, that was when the lawyer letter came, I realized now I'm by myself with this decision. So he made the wrong move? Yeah, probably he would have gotten his way. But to be honest, it would be very sad for me. But does he see the sad part of you? Does he see the conflict that you felt about your daughter? Does he realize what you experienced physically, what you experienced relationally,

or does he think you said to him, fuck you? It's mine. No, I don't think he thinks that. I think he knows that I was in a struggle with that decision. But at the same time, I think he is so hurt now that it's not how he wants it, that the end result he wants it, that he's not able to see my pain in this. I think he's too busy with his own pain at the moment. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so'm Peter Kafka. you can become a better investor. It's time to get the financial future you deserve. Get yours, Questrade. Hey there, I'm Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, a show about technology and media and the future.

And this has been a tremendously busy couple weeks for the tech industry. There's Donald Trump and his embrace by the men running the world's most powerful companies. There's TikTok and its future in the US. And there's DeepSeek, the Chinese AI engine that just shook Silicon Valley and Wall Street. I wanted to get an insider's perspective on all of that,

so this week I turned to Jessica Lessin, the veteran tech journalist who runs the information. Jessica told me why DeepSeek is so important, who she thinks might end up owning TikTok, and why some of the Valley isn't just playing nice with Donald Trump, but really thinks he'll be good for them. You can hear all of that on channels,

wherever you listen to awesome podcasts. health and human services secretary nominee Robert fluoride Kennedy Jr. went before the Senate today in fiery confirmation hearings. Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon? I probably did say that. Kennedy makes two big arguments about our health and the first is deeply divisive. He is skeptical of vaccines. Well I do believe that autism does come from vaccines. Science disagrees. The second argument is something that a lot of Americans, regardless of their

politics, have concluded. He says our food system is serving us garbage and that garbage is making us sick. Coming up on Today Explained, a confidant of Kennedy's, in fact the man who helped facilitate his introduction to Donald Trump on what the Make America Healthy Again movement wants. Today, explain weekdays wherever you get your podcasts. So are you getting more clarity about how you want to speak or write to him. Yes, you mentioned a lot of good things. When I'm not sure yet, how much space do I give him? Because right now I feel, when I still received this last message a bit more than a week ago,

I think he has not really accepted the fact that this child is actually coming yet. So I'm not sure he's open to receive any message from me now. So what do you think? Like, how much time should I let pass? I have no idea. I have no idea in terms of time. I think that the main thing is that your goal is not for him to accept. He may accept in months, he may accept in years, he may not. That is not the goal. If at all the goal is to maintain a thread. But do you think I should let him know when I have like doctor's appointments? No, no, no. You can ask, you can tell him, I understand you want nothing to do with it.

If you choose to, just let me know. I will respect your wishes. If they change because I don't expect that we are always staying in the same spot and that things may evolve, do know that you can just let me know. There will not be a price to pay. There will not be a price to pay. There will not be accumulated resentments. I will simply inform you. If you want, I will inform you just when she's born,

so that you know. If you choose not to be informed, I will honor that too. But know that I understand that our thoughts and our feelings evolve. And I want to keep that door open. This is not about, do I wait six weeks or two months or the next doctor's appointment. No.

Especially that you decided to carry this without him. That doesn't mean alone. It just means without him. I want to reiterate that. So you will go to the doctor with the other support systems that you're going to put in place. And the main thing is the door stays open. Yeah. No, I'm not mad at him. I'm very sad about what happened.

I don't understand how it could change so drastically within like really 24 hours of us being a team and having to take a very hard decision together to be by ourselves and wanting to do something? Because it may have had less to do with children and marriage and all of that, then it had to do with the immediate switching from when we are together, we are one, we agree, we are united. But when we think differently, we instantly clash. Yeah. And it may have had more to do with your criticism and his sensitivity to it, his reaction to you with the emotional intensity that lives inside of him from his own history and your emotional intensity that lives inside of you from your history. Those two clashed and decided on the spot, you either are on my side or I want none of it.

Yeah, true. And each of you had a voice inside of you that reacted from the same place, all or nothing. I'm here, yeah. My way or no way. That's so sad. Because now, of course, I regret that I had this strong urge of marriage because now I'm like, yeah. I'm like, I would have rather having him by my side

without marriage than not at all, right? Have you said that? Yeah, but too late. Only when we had the discussion about them. Like when you wanted to meet me, to talk me into having a termination. But when I said, look, I do regret what I said. I do see it differently now. You may want to repeat it one more time.

You may want to repeat it one more time. For some people, it's very hard to hold both at the same time. I love certain things and I profoundly dislike others. For some people, it's all or nothing. It's love or hate. It's with you or not. And that demands revisionism and rewriting of the story. Yeah, I don't know. This part, like you're totally right, I can be critical.

But at the same time, I think, how could I have this done better? Because I think it was necessary that we would negotiate certain terms of our relationship that were... Because to state your needs with more personal responsibility and agency is to ask for what you want instead of to state what the other isn't doing. That's number one. But number two is for him to hear what you want and not just to hear it as,

I'm not good enough. So each person carries a piece of this. And number three is, it's perfectly fine to negotiate, but it doesn't mean much if people don't hear each other and don't respond respectfully and empathically to what the other person is asking for. There's nothing gained from just stating, this is what I want. If you have somebody on the other side saying, yeah, but this is what I want. Or if the other person says, you know, what you want isn't reasonable to want, or you

shouldn't want this thing, or why do you want this thing? So the process is more important than the actual rules you're negotiating. If the process is not in place, it doesn't matter if you're negotiating Greenpeace in South Korea or the boundaries of your relationship. And when two people get into this kind of a stalemate within a few months, it is not what existed between the two of them that brought this out. It's what each of them brought to each other. True, yeah.

That's what makes the speed. Will you let me know how things evolve? I would love to, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Great. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you, Esther. Bye-bye.

Bye. This was an Aster calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Aster, could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.