Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - In Loving You, I Learned to Love Myself

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

She unknowingly changed the course of his life, and he's loved her ever since. It's been decades, and even though he now dates men, he wonders how to live with these feelings of what he calls unrequited love. How do you hold a candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi Esther, where do I begin? Well, I think the first thing to say is that for most of my adult life, my romantic and sexual experiences have been with men, but the story I want to talk to you about is about a girl. And my question really is around unrequited love how do you live with unrequited love? So the background to the story is that when I was young, maybe around 11, 12, I became extremely infatuated

with one of my classmates and had very grown-up sort of ideas about the kind of attraction I had towards her and what a possible romantic life would look like, as it turns out, however, when I took the opportunity to sort of confess all of these feelings to her, she plainly said that she didn't feel the same way about me. That rejection was not entirely unexpected, given that, you know, she's from an entirely different class than I and I was. And the social structure of the the place I'm from sort of dictates, you know, romantic relationships and I was very aware of that.

So I'm now in my 30s, but of late and quite often she comes up in my memory and I can't seem to forget her. And she shapes a lot of what I expect emotionally in relationships. And she's a sort of silent character in my romantic life. And it leaves me with a lot of longing and unfulfilled desires. So my question, really, I think I know it's not one that can be resolved. But it's a life question for me, I think. think of how to live with unrequited love. Support for this show comes from Nordstrom.

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What I want to do is kick off a collective exploration of the intricacies of our relationships at this moment. Please join me on Substack where I'll be writing to you weekly, hosting live streams with other creators and for my paid subscribers, offering community discussion forums to strengthen our relationships and connections to one another. members will also get add free episodes of my podcast where should we begin and all of our exclusive office hours bonus episodes i invite you to sign up and become a member either free or paid to my entre no community at ester porel dot substack.com You first. Yeah, when I listen back, it sounds a bit sad,

but it's actually not a sad story from my perspective because I would say this is someone who saved my life. life in a way because even though we never got to be in a relationship or got to be romantic, we were actually very good friends during high school. And she was the smartest girl in the class. I wasn't so smart. Where was this, by the way? Oh, this is Jamaica. And we sat beside each other in class and I would copy everything she did so how she wrote the books she read and I mean she was reading the Harry Potter books at the time and my level of reading was not at that level and she lent me the Harry Potter books and I got into it so much and that was the first book

I ever read cover to cover right so in a way being infatuated and in love with her has kind of led me to where I am now, you know, because it gave me a lot of the sort of academic skills I needed to excel in school when those were not my natural capabilities. Those were not your natural capabilities or those were not your circumstances? Yeah, maybe. Maybe those were not my circumstances because I actually, I grew up in in state care. So based on that, you know, the expectations for my life were not ones that would have been predicted to where I am today in terms of, you know, the academic achievements I've had because, I mean,

I've just recently completed a PhD. So, and, you know, have gone into living life as an academic. which you would not have predicted from where I started. But I think being exposed... Well, if one looked at your capabilities, one may have predicted it. I'm not so sure. If one looked at your circumstances,

one did not predict it. When I got to high school, I didn't feel like I could survive there. Because everyone was really ahead of me, academically, quite frankly. And I was a little bit behind in the class. But I don't know. I think... But that's because of what you were capable of?

Or because of what your life had been? Maybe both. I don't know. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. But I think... I want you to remember this for when we get later. Yes.

This is a very important distinction. and you just made a distinction for her too. No, she didn't love me in the way that I was in love with her, but she became a very good friend. Yes. And she cared, and she didn't really reject me. She said, I love you differently. Now, there's a rejection in that,

but it wasn't like, I don't care about you, get out of my life. Right. It was, I don't care about you in this way, but I care about you greatly in other ways. Yeah. But something in that experience became paradigmatic for you in expecting rejection. In a way, yes.

Romantic rejection. Yes, I'm not sure I'm very conscious of how it shows. up, but I do know that that is a point of, it's like a touch point for me, romantically. Tell me a little bit about you. You say I date and my sex life, my romantic life, my love life is mostly with men. What's it been like? It started a little rocky, I would say. Like I didn't know who I was. I was a little bit just afraid of accepting this truth about myself. But as I've grown older and a little bit mature.

How old were you then? I was around 20, I think. So a bit of a late bloomer. My first experience was not one I would have chosen for myself, to be honest. But it is what it is. So I've come to acceptance in a way. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We're going to slow it down a second, okay?

Yeah. My first experience wasn't what I would have chosen for myself. Means it was different from what I had imagined or means it wasn't a good one? It was not a good one in that I was pursued by someone. who I was not attracted to. And I would say the person took advantage of me, but if I were to go back and choose,

I would not have chosen to be with that person. It was just that at the time, I suppose that person maybe had an insight about me that I didn't have, and they were able to pick up on this, I guess, attraction, and take advantage of it. Not in a bad way, but just that they were able to connect with me sexually,

but it wasn't, you know, I would not have chosen to be sexual with this person. It's just that the circumstances at the time contrived to deliver that outcome. Does that carry a mark for you? Does that live with his. Is that left you with a scar? No, I don't think so, because at the end of the day, I still had agency and choice, and I chose in that moment.

I just wish I had a little bit more insight about myself. So I could say, actually, that's not what I like, or that's not who I like. But I only came to that realization long after the event. But nowadays, I'm a little more conscious of what I like, what I like. don't like who I like who I don't like. So I have a little bit more agency over my romantic choices. I don't think I would have learned that had I not gone through the original experience of having not being able to choose. Any love stories? Yeah. So the most salient one is someone who I met in Jamaica but he was migrating in like six months but for that six months before he left we were in a

little bit of a whirlwind of a romance and yeah that was very life-changing for me because it it was a relationship in which I got to show how much I could love someone and give myself to someone and yeah to this day we still talk we have a really strong connection even though we're at two different ends of the globe sometimes we go for months without talking but when we pick up the phone and call each other it's like no time has passed um so you know that's been a beautiful love story yeah and then when i came to new zealand i met someone who is maury and that relationship was deeply spiritual and I think by nature I'm a deeply spiritual person and so we connected on this sort of spiritual level and you know we were able to be each other's grounding

I guess you know because I was studying at the time and things had gotten kind of crazy with how I was just slavishly focused on school and he was able to bring me back to reality and say, hey, there are other things other than the piece of paper you're trying to earn. I know it's important you need it to build a new life you want to live, but there are other things that we can enjoy in life. So he took me a lot to his ancestral lands and we went hiking a lot and I got to really see the beauty of New Zealand, which I would not have seen otherwise because I was so laser focused on finishing my studies because I felt that, you know, that was my ticket to a better life. So, yeah, so I was really grateful for that period of my life, for that romance that

opened me up to what being in love can do for you in terms of just, yeah, making your life a little bit more better than when you're on your own. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business means that there's a never-ending to-do list. So finding the right tool that can help you simplify everything can be life-changing. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind businesses around the world

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Use code begin at Monarch.com in your browser for half of your first year. That's 50% of your first year at Monarch.com with code begin. Support for where should we begin comes from quo. Missing a business call is like missing an opportunity to gain a new client. With Quo, formerly open phone, missed calls can be a thing of the past. Quo works right from an app on your phone or computer. Your whole team can share one number and collaborate on calls and texts. Buildin AI can log calls, write summaries and even set up next steps.

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I guess, yeah, in the last six months, maybe. And what happened? What brought this up for you? I mean, not that you had forgotten it. Yes, no. But there was a resurgence of the memory, of the intensity of it, of the feeling that accompanied it, of the sense that what you call unrequited love is it's one-sided. I will love someone. They will not love me back.

And that has become a kind of expectations. You anticipate this. It's not who she is, is what you experienced with her and how that has now become. a frame for you. I anticipate not being loved in return. I anticipate not having that sense of belonging. I don't know exactly what bought it up, but I just remember thinking,

I wonder what it would be like to just tell her thank you. for what she's meant to my life. And, yeah, I just Googled her and saw that, you know, she's married now and probably has kids. And I like, you know, this is a conversation I'll probably never be able to have. And I guess just the idea that that will never happen, you know, the fact that something is out of reach, I guess makes you want it more. I don't know. What will never happen? Yeah, that kind of, that opportunity to say thank you.

Why not? Why not? I don't know. She's difficult to reach, I guess. And I guess we're just different people now. I don't know. I did this podcast. with this woman and it occurred to me that a number of times in my life when things started

out painful they actually turned into important lessons or transitions or opportunities and it occurred to me that you were the first with whom I had actually experienced this. and you know we don't often write to people we met decades before but I had this thought that I wanted to say thank you to you I hope things are good and I just wanted you to know my first book I read with you and it's not just that I read them is that you gave them to me it's that you gave me a grounding a recognition an opportunity an ability to distinguish between circumstances and capabilities. I don't know why you were a warden of the state,

but I don't even know if she knew it. But I have a sense that there was, this was a special school that you had been invited to attend? No, it was just the ordinary high school. Ordinary high school. Okay, but not everyone didn't have a home. Right, yeah. Okay.

And so in some way, when you think of her, she gave you a version of a, a small version of home. Yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to drop you a few lines because we don't always thank the people on our trajectory who were very significant and don't even know they were. What would it be like if you had a variation of this letter, when you hear it out loud, what's it like? Yeah, no, I think I've written this letter several times, but just have not been able to find her contact to send it. Yeah, but this is a letter I think about a lot. And I carry it with me. It's like a place I go to in difficult times.

Because as you say, it was a sort of base for me in my life. Say more. Just that experience, as you say, of being acknowledged, of being seen gave me so much. And I'm so grateful to her. and just often want to say that. I often say that actually, you know, to myself. You know, sometimes when I'm in a really good season, I'll just, you know, whisper to myself, thank you.

Even though she can't hear it. And I think my thoughts around this question of unrequited love is how do you hold that candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you. What do you think? I don't know. It's a puzzle, I think, because people move through different phases in life,

and she might be at a phase of her life. We're even hearing that, she might not even be able to receive it. I don't know, but this is just one of my thoughts about this whole idea of unrequited love. There are so many different permutations of people who we love, but who don't know that we love them. And there are many lives that you could have lived with many different people who come across your path. and my thoughts have just been about wondering what that path would have been like, you know, because it's one of many paths that could have happened, but it didn't happen, right? Do you feel deserving of it?

Of late, I have become more convinced that I absolutely am. I never felt that way, but as I've gotten more connected with myself, I know that without a shadow of a doubt, it's absolutely what I deserve. And I think, in a way, there's a sort of conceit about this whole process of loving someone who will never love me back. because in that process of loving her, I think I sort of fell in love with myself. I don't know how to explain that, but I made myself into a person she would have wanted to be with because I saw the qualities that she admired and so forth.

And in turning myself into that person, I realized, oh, I actually like that person as well, that I have become and I'm becoming each day and that's where the whole idea of me feeling that I deserve it has come from in that when I look at how I have transformed I sometimes stop and say, you know, wow, you're actually quite wonderful and to be able to say that to myself is a bit of a gift, I think. Absolutely.

Yeah, of having not been in love with the person I desire, but through that whole process, I became that person in a way. So do we still want to call it unrequited love, or does it change title? I don't know. I don't know. In loving you, I came to love myself. And you gave me so much, not unrequited at all, you gave me so much, and I knew how to take it. And I knew how to transform it into something beautiful. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that because the version I ended up with was one that that was transformative for me. Yes, she became a muse for you, she became a catalyst for you, and for all you know, she may not remember at all, or she may never have thought it was such a big deal, or she actually may have thought that she was doing something really good, and that the giver changes the life of the receiver, but the receiver, also changes the life of the giver. And one way sometimes

that people get to say thank you even if they don't get to meet the person is by what they pass on. It's their own transmission. It's by them becoming a light for someone else and kind of privately knowing where it comes from.

At the torch they carry didn't start with them, that someone else when they shed light on them. Do you have a receiver at this moment in your life? Yes, I do, I think, my students, because I teach. And my younger brother, I try to be a light for him. And is he a receiver? Oh, very much so.

And do you feel that there is a kind of a mirror experience going on? Yeah, absolutely, I think so. I think, well, the beauty of it is that, you know, he tells me often that I am his light. So it's beautiful to have that acknowledgement. So it's not so requited from that perspective. I'm able to see in real time the impact of my giving and it's quite gratifying.

And she may have done the same. And you know, actually I forgot about something. Tell me. When you finish high school, those two years where you sort of do like, it's like that period before university, those two years, like college years. So for my two years, we call it six-form in Jamaica. I went to a different six-form.

It was a little bit more prestigious. It was like an all-boys boarding school with a long tradition of educating prime ministers and business leaders. And this is where all of the sort of upper crust of Jamaican boys would go to. somehow I ended up there. No, not somehow. Not somehow. That's why I ask you if you feel deserving.

You didn't just somehow. Nobody gets somehow into those places. That's true. Own it. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. You have a smile that smiles to life. Thank you.

You worked so hard for it. And you didn't always get the proper supports for it. And I don't know anything about your story. But I can sense that you did a lot of this alone. But you knew when to take the book and the fruit and the gifts from people who were giving to you, who may or may not even have known your story either. You know, there's often someone in the classroom who doesn't go home when the school day. and nobody knows that they're not going home

and that they don't go to a ready-made dinner and that's et cetera, et cetera. And they hide in the midst and they want to feel that they belong and they copy. They copy what they see so that people think that they're one of them. But in fact, sometimes they live in a car.

Sometimes they live in the warden of the state. Sometimes there's just no one home. tell me yeah no i i was um just yeah thinking of that journey yeah it was pretty lonely there was a lot of help along the way and a lot of people who poured into me um and it still feels a little lonely now because I'm in a bit of a career transition, let's say. So now I need to draw more from that journey that, you know, and remind myself that, hey, you've been through this before.

This is just another version of it at a higher level. So you're not alone and you're going to be fine. You just need to remember that you're loved and that you have everything you need for the rest of your journey. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the try-free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

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Like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time. you. Said you hear about Dave? Or even T-time, T-time, T-time, T-time, T-Time you. Mmm. So update on Dave.

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which is why I'm drawing so much on my inner resources. And which is maybe why the memory is coming up so much, you know. The last time I remember that acute sense of loneliness brought me back to seeing myself as this young boy in class. Yeah. Okay. The last time I think now is, I would say it's every day now. so I have a meditation practice and a journaling practice

so I begin my day with that because I know the road is lonely right so that's my my self-care in a way and yeah this memory I think is part of what's it's part of the care as well because as you say It allows me to remember, you know, the journey. It allows me to remember that I've survived this before. And it allows me to know, I have some tools in my toolkit. I'm not so alone and I'm not so, yeah, I'm not as undeserving as I sometimes think I am.

Same one. Yeah. So now in this new sort of academic career that I'm trying to establish, it can be really, really difficult, you know, and because you are trying to basically create new knowledge and contribute to academic conversations, if you're a young academic, you know, you're competing with people who are already well-established. So it can feel a little intimidating. So yes, I have to sort of really have that inner check with myself to remind myself that, hey, I've come this far and I have what it takes. I assume, I hope, maybe mistakenly, but I assume there are not many Jamaicans in New Zealand. No.

So how is that? It's really difficult and especially because it's so far away so it's not like you can jump on a plane and go for a visit. And culturally different? I mean,

I'm okay with the culture because it suits a lot of my personality. You know, it's one of the reasons I left Jamaica is I feel more at home here. So that's not an issue for me. But I do know the value of community. I don't have that so much here. But I do have friends, African friends. They're in different parts of the country.

But we do try to get together every now and again. And that helps. So I'm grateful for that. Because otherwise there's racial loneliness as well. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And most times I'm the only black person in a room, you know. And you feel it. Of course you feel it.

Yeah. Of course you feel it. Yeah. And even just last two months ago, I went to Cambridge University for a conference. And yeah, I just felt so alone. Like when I, I was presenting some of my research. And in the morning before I went to present, I had to go in the bathroom and like really catch myself

because I started to cry because of just how lonely I felt. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I'm right here. Yeah. It's been a long journey, I mean.

Yeah. That conference was at the Royal Society. This is where Isaac Newton wrote his first discoveries. And, you know, standing in that place as a black man, as a descendant of slaves. I was, yeah, I was just, yeah, just so. Proud. Proud. Proud.

Yes, I was proud. Proud and lonely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's one of the things I wish, you know, was that I wish she could see me because that that journey was because of her, you know.

I just really want to say thank you. I really just want to say thank you. Because I would not have gotten there if she had not been a friend to me. You will find a way to thank her. You're a researcher. You can write to her and find her address. Do you have family?

Yes. Yes, I do. But she has come to represent the family to whom you want to show who you've become. Yeah. She's the standing. In a way, yes. She's the representative. Yeah, I think so.

How do you call her? Her name is Sherry Ann. Maybe she's listening. You're welcome to thank her right here, right now. Yeah, well, yeah, Sherryan, if you are listening, yeah, I just want to say thank you for everything you've meant to me. And, yeah, for just seeing me and giving me the up. opportunity to become who I am today. So thank you.

Do you think she will understand immediately? I'm not sure because I don't know where her life is at now. And I suppose after marriage and kids, you're a different person, you know. But I hope she understands. Did she know where you were going at the end of school? So right, so the story I was going to tell was that when I left the high school we were together and went to this more prestigious college, we entered a public speaking competition and our two schools were competing.

and we were actually on opposite sides and I mean normally she wins all of these competitions but I it turns out that at that time I won and she came up to me after and just said how much I deserve to win she said after I heard your speech I just so blown away and I just want you to know how proud I am of you So I think she knew, yeah, she knew because that competition

opened up a lot of doors, you know, I ended up going to compete in the regional competition that was my first time traveling abroad and just opened my eyes to, you know, more of the world. So I think, yeah, at that competition, she really sort of acknowledged, you know, that, yeah, I really see great things for you. And she really did say how proud she was

that I won that competition, even though she would have liked to have won it. Two separate things. Two separate things. And when you think of her, when you bring her with you to Cambridge, did you feel slightly less alone? Did you feel wrapped in her love for you?

Not in the unrequited, in the love, in the pride, in the support, in the gifting, in the giving? No, I don't know what Cambridge did something to me in that I've never been afraid of loneliness. In fact, I always embrace it. but being in Cambridge just, I don't know, made it so unbearably in a way? May I ask you something? Yeah. Was there ever a sense from you that as you reach for more status, achievement, dignity, deserving

respect accomplishment academic recognition all of it that in fact you would one day feel less lonely compared to how you had sometimes felt

as a child and as a young boy and that in fact the more you were reaching and achieving, the opposite was actually happening. Well, you know, I always knew that the life of wisdom and knowledge is a lonely life. Because when you pursue knowledge, you are seeing the world in ways that others don't, and you have information and depth of insight that others don't have. So I always sort of knew it was a lonely road.

I just didn't know how lonely it is actually. If we go back to your original question, And I don't know if the story was a story of unrequited love. Or if the story was, give me the no title. I don't know what the new title is. What do you think we talked about? What is really the essence of what we talked about? The only thing I can think of is saying thank you.

It sounds simple, but having the opportunity to acknowledge another, to acknowledge what people mean to you and how they've impacted your life. And I will add another piece to it if you allow me. When I thank the people who have impacted me, I know. I am not alone. If they've impacted me, then I know that even when I felt lonely, I wasn't alone.

Does that land on you? Yes, definitely. And one of the reasons why thanking her became so important at the moment when I felt so lonely, is because in the act itself of gratitude lies the connection to another person.

You're saying yes with your head. Yeah. You're saying yes to what? Yeah, that, you know, gratitude really opens up that portal of connection. And it's here. It's healing. Ultimately, it's love, I mean, you know.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for joining me in this conversation. It was my pleasure. Thank you for allowing me the space to process this with you. Let me know. If the thank you reaches her. I will.

Okay? Yes. All right. All right. Bye-bye. Goodbye. Yeah. This was an Astaire calling.

A one-time intervention. phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to producer at esterapurell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.