Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - It's a Matter of Pride

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

In another episode of Esther Calling, he worries his desire for a serious relationship is putting women off. But early in their phone call, it becomes clear to Esther that he’s talking about a particular woman from his past. He describes his feelings for that woman as “intense”, whereas she was more ambivalent. Esther and the caller explore the question: when is yearning for someone’s unreciprocated feelings more about pride and getting what you want than it is about that other person? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every season for Where Should We Begin, I receive thousands of applicants. And one of the most frustrating things is that I'm only going to be able to see 10 couples. And I've been grappling with this. How can I connect with more of you? There are so many powerful questions, so many pain points that I would like to be able to at least address with you, even if shortly. So this series is going to be different. It's you calling me with a very precise question, with your pain point, me calling you back. And together we think out loud and we go from where should we begin to where can you start.

Hello. As a single young man in my early 20s, I keep finding that the high-achieving, career-driven young women I find myself attracted to are not in the market for the type of deeply committed, long-term romantic relationship I'm looking for. It's as if the more I want this sort of relationship, the more likely I am to scare them away. Is there anything I can do to relax their fear of losing one's sense of identity, achievement and independence? Or should I be approaching the situation differently? Hello? Hello, hello. Oh, wow. Hi. It's very nice to talk to you today.

Yes, pleasure to speak with you as well. Can you hear me? Yes, I hear you very well. Do you hear me? Yes, I hear you perfectly. Great. So I wanted to just call you and have an exchange about this beautiful question that you sent about how do you not scare high achieving women away when you tell them that you actually would love to be in a more serious, more long-term, deeper relationship with them. And that somehow you have a sense that for them, it's a choice between

either being productive and achieving or being in a romantic relationship and the two don't go together. Did I understand that well? Yes. How do you know you scare them away? What's happened? Give me just a snapshot. scared her away in that when I became more vulnerable to her, she seemed to become less responsive and less willing to, you know, spend time with me or do stuff with me. I felt that I would push her away by doing things that one would perhaps do in a relationship.

So there's a particular person we're talking about, right? There's one woman here okay and what uh what's an example of something that you were doing that you felt uh she reacted with greater distance to well i would like propose to go out on date like experiences or i would be emotionally vulnerable towards her and tell her things that were happening in my life. And she responded, not by saying what, but she responded by implying what? That this was going too far in the direction that she felt was more looking like a sort of relationship

that she was not ready for. And did you ask it point blank? Do I scare you? Does this take you off your path? Do you have a feeling that I'm asking too much from you? Did you ever speak about it point blank like that? Yeah. I mean, I don't remember the conversation very clearly. I do remember that she did think it was strange that I was so attracted to her and that I wanted to be in that sort of relationship with her, given how her personality was.

Meaning? She thought it was very clear that she was not the type of person to be in a long-term relationship and that I would not pursue that with her. You know, the phrase that just came to me was something like, you strike me as a woman who sees herself as very curious. It's interesting that you seem to know in advance what this could or could not be for you.

And I wonder, would you be open to just see where it goes? But that also implies that you don't need a commitment up front. And that was what ended up happening. We were sort of in an ambiguous zone where I was like, okay, we're not going to be in a relationship. We're going to be friends for now. But I am not content with just being that. And I made that very clear to her.

And so when I did seem to veer into the direction of doing things that implied that we were more than friends, such as being more emotionally vulnerable to her, wanting to spend more time with her, then she would retreat. Yeah. So she felt that you were coming on too strong and that you wanted more than she was willing to give or was interested in receiving for that matter.

And in a way, you're asking me, I hear two questions. I hear one is, it's not the question you asked, but it's what I'm sensing is that you're heartbroken a bit because you had your eyes set on her and your heart on this woman on this girl and she she wasn't responding but then you ask was there anything I could have done that could have been that could have allowed that would have made me succeed at at seducing her and at winning her over? Yeah, I mean, I guess the more general question is like, her argument was that it was very risky to her,

like to lose herself and to get in a relationship that would distract her from what she was trying to do. And I didn't seem to find a good counter argument to that because it does seem to me that when you enter a relationship, you do change, your priorities do often change. So I wasn't sure whether or not to argue that, oh no, everything will be okay if we be in a relationship. Oh no, I would never take on the argument as such, you know, between love and work, what's more important? I would just simply say

that, you know, I can guarantee you a richer life. Yes. A life in which you are at the same time achieving and accomplishing and reaching and a life in which you also are relating and developing a beautiful story with me. This is not about, you know, either you enter a relationship and you forget what's important in your life and you suddenly are delayed on your ambitions. Where did that kind of split come from? It's not an uncommon tension. I mean, this is part of the history of women, has one course that is called the School of Life and the School of Love. And that that is equally important to have on your resume when you finish college.

Yeah. I mean, I think you perfectly captured what it is that I was hoping to achieve with her. Is it still going on or is it over? Oh, no. I think we're done with her, unfortunately, because we're in separate colleges now. This was like my last year of high school when this happened. Although perhaps one day, like in a couple of years, maybe once she's more mature, I would definitely go back to her and try again

because what I experienced with her, I would say I had never felt before and I haven't since. It was your first time falling in love? It wasn't my first time really liking a girl, but I would say that with her, it was very different. It was a lot more intense. Every time she spoke, it was like she was holding me in her hand. It was very, more intense. Every time she spoke, it was like she was holding me in her hand. It was very, very intense. And what was it about her, you think, that drew you in so much?

She would say the things that I would think, but wouldn't dare to act on. Her personality was very much not caring what people thought about her. She would just say what's on her mind, do what she wanted, take what she wanted. And I, it was something I always admired about her. And different from who you are, how you are? No, I would say I'm very much the same. And I think maybe that's why I also felt an affinity towards her. Did she ever think that what you were offering her was actually very rich?'s a beautiful gift by the way yeah uh i i honestly don't think she saw it even remotely in those terms she thought you weird um perhaps yeah for wanting that sort of relationship yeah like what's wrong with you

that you want such a thing what What's the matter with you? I guess. That's not what most boys want or you're coming on too strong? I think that's what it was. I think that it's not something that most boys want, especially at that age, like finishing high school. I thought she was more cynical of my intentions. And that's why she didn't really trust that that's actually what I wanted. So that's a very beautiful word you just chose, right? It's like the conversation between the romantic and the cynic. And the part of her kind of doesn't even know how to appreciate it, really.

It would be another girl's dream, by the way. Exactly, yeah. But this particular girl looks at it and just says like, yeah, wow, where are you coming from? What is that all about? Is that what you have on your mind? And if you can stay confident, you basically say, yes, does that make you so uncomfortable? The hard thing is to really stay confident about it because then sometimes she can make you doubt yourself too did she succeed or did you stay steady I think I stayed pretty steady probably too steady where I probably should have given up on her before I did and why didn't you get the

message because you're used to getting what you want because you were so smitten that you were not gonna stop or because you thought I can convince her otherwise? I think it was a combination of things. I mean, I'm also the sort of person that gets what I want almost all the time. It was also like a matter of pride that we were both very stubborn people and I kind of wanted to win her over. And also just because I really am appreciative of the richness that a relationship brings to a person's life. And it's something that I've always really deeply wanted.

And when you didn't get it, what happened to you? It was quite tough, I would say. Right before high school was going to end we had a sort of goodbye date and we had a fantastic time at the end of it we said goodbye knowing that it was the last time we'd see each other in a long time I would say there was romantic tension but I kind of ignored it because I didn't want to spoil anything by doing anything um And then, well, she texted me later that night that she really wanted to kiss me at some point that night. And I never got the chance to do that. So for me, it felt like I never really got closure. And it was really, really tough on me for a long time. And at the same time, you never were totally rejected either.

No. I mean, she told me at one point that the reason she didn't want to be in a relationship was because she liked me that much. Because she felt that I would be such a huge distraction and such a huge disturbance in her life. So that's another reason why I really wanted to win her over because I knew that she was actually feeling the same thing. I hear you. I hear you. That changes the story. Yeah. Do you come home? You live in the same town, right? I suppose.

Yes. And have you seen each other on breaks no um so a year after this happened i actually went to visit her university because that's also where my best friend is and we went out for a lunch or something like that and it was very strange because um the attraction i had for her was still there but she definitely was not feeling the same for me anymore no that's super painful yeah when you're when your heart is still burning and the other person has any embers left um that's super painful yeah um since then um when i've been back home and she was also in the town in town I did try once or twice to meet up with her,

but she would not be very responsive or she would just ghost me, basically. And that's when you need to accept and not pursue further because A, she starts to really think that you don't get the message, even though it's really upsetting. But B, what starts to occur if you continue to want when another person says no and you're not listening

is that they get a sense that it's more important for you to get what you want than actually to see who the other person is. That then it becomes more about you than about any feelings you have for her. Yes, I completely understand that. That's the element that is weird.

Yeah. I do see how it could cross the line into something that's more selfishness than yearning. I don't feel that that was the case with me. I don't see a relationship as something that only I benefit from. I really feel that it's something where I also help her become the best version of herself. I want you to eat some of my food. No, thanks.

I'm not hungry. But really, I promise you, it's delicious. I've tasted it. I know you'll like it. But no, thank you. I know it would be really good, but I am not hungry right now. I don't want to eat right now. I'm not interested in this food right now. I'm pursuing other meals right now. No, no, but really, really.

Yes, that's a pretty good way of putting it. You know, and at some point, if you really are interested in the other person, then you have to hear when they say, I'm not hungry. Yeah. And that's where the sadness comes in and the, oh, God, I still believe. I know I was right. I know she would have loved it. Yeah. But she is not there.

Yeah. Does that answer your question yeah it sounds like then there is not much that I can do in that situation well one day when you run into her you will say you know I tried very hard to convince you but obviously we were in very different places where do I find you now? Yeah I definitely hope you do that one day That's it for now from me and I really hope you meet that girl with whom you can

weave the story that you so ache to weave Yes me too So good luck to you Thank you you too Bye Yes, me too. So good luck to you. Be well. Thank you. You too. Bye. Bye-bye. So I'm looking for many ways to stay connected with you as I continue to help you develop greater confidence and competence in your relationships.

This time, it comes in the form of a game. Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories is a game that helps you connect and reconnect, deal with the social atrophy that so many of us have experienced, and unlock the storyteller within. So gather your partner, your friends, or your date. Grab a seat, pull a card, and be my guest in sharing the stories that you rarely tell. Let's play along. estherperel.com slash the game