Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Losing My Best Friend

Episode Date: November 18, 2021

In this second episode of Esther Calling, we meet a woman who feels she is losing her best friend. The caller feels that her friend is rushing into a marriage to someone she doesn’t approve of. During the call Esther talks her through a new way to see their relationship and where to go from here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every season for Where Should We Begin, I receive thousands of applicants. And one of the most frustrating things is that I'm only going to be able to see 10 couples. And I've been grappling with this. How can I connect with more of you? There are so many powerful questions, so many pain points that I would like to be able to at least address with you, even if shortly. So this series is going to be different. It's you calling me with a very precise question, with your pain point, me calling you back. And together we think out loud and we go from where should we begin to where can you start.

Hello, it's Esther. Hi. Yes, hi, hi. How are you? I'm good. I can't believe I'm speaking with you. I feel so lucky. Hey, here we are. And you have a question for me. How can I help you? The question I suppose is, what do I do when I see my best friend betraying herself and I know it doesn't bother her? Does that make sense? Yes, but the interesting thing in your question is it half of it is a question and half of it is an opinion yeah i'm very opinionated which is part of my problem i think um and what is the issue first of all i think the main issue is just in the past year you know like after landing herself in this

position where I think she's been quite lonely she's met someone and kind of rushed through all of these phases of life meeting someone getting engaged moving in getting a dog arranging a wedding needing to get pregnant straight away and And all along the way, I'm not seeing any indication that there's space for her. But when we have conversations about these decisions that she's making and why she's making these decisions and what she wants to do, I'm concerned that I see a lot of accommodating for other people and that there aren't those moments where I see her, who she is, what she's all about, what she wants. And you've said as much to her. It's tough with her.

She's more stubborn than I am. And one of these people that in the past, because this isn't the first time things like this have come up in our relationship, if you kind of clearly bring her up on this stuff and you say, I'm really concerned about this. Are you sure that this is the right choice? Are you sure that this is your choice? How is this serving you? Those are the things that tend to propel her even further into whatever it is that's going on. Yeah, because your question is actually asking her to affirm her choice and to convince her that it's the right choice. But that's the way you ask it. You know, you could also ask her what you just said. You know, this has been a very rough year for you and you have felt very lonely. And I am far away and many of the other people that you wished were there or that

you would hope to count on haven't been there for you. Tell me, how important has he or they, if it's his family included, been for you? Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's almost like she's kind of closed in on that conversation if that makes sense because well she calls me and she'll kind of preempt it in a way like I feel like she knows what I'm going to ask her because you're not asking you're not really asking questions your questions are disguised judgments with a question mark at the end you're not really asking questions. Your questions are disguised judgments with a question mark at the end. You're not really asking her. So she anticipates judgment and criticism from you. And she comes in, you know, defendant. And the more you tell her that she doesn't seem to know what she's doing, and the more she will tell you that she does, and the more she will justify

herself, and the more you will think that she's unhinged. Yeah, actually, that's it right on the head. So what if you turned around a moment and changed course and actually did something that was very different? And you could even start by saying, I think I have been quite judgmental. I've been so surprised and so not convinced that I have not really asked you, but I have basically told you. But really imagine that you actually became deeply curious and interested in understanding rather than in wanting her to understand why you think this is not a good idea. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. You're going to go to the wedding? I am. Yeah, I'm nervous about it, obviously. But I need to be there with her in person.

I think part of the problem as well is just the time difference and video calls like you don't really get a complete story there and I think it's easy for all of this to feel so abstract and just for us to be reminded about I guess why that friendship matters are you afraid to lose her terrified about, I guess, why that friendship matters. Are you afraid to lose her? Terrified. And have you said that? And maybe that is not just because of who she's marrying,

but just the simple fact that she's moving into a new life stage. She seems to be entering a whole family, which you always thought you were her family. And it's complicated by the fact that you don't particularly think that she's making a choice that you are fond of, but you don't fully understand the choice. I'm not talking about his values and their lifestyle and all of that. I'm talking about her loneliness, her sense of loss that she felt during this year and how she chose to respond to it. And you haven't said to her, I'm just afraid to lose you. Yeah, exactly. And I think part of it is just related to about nine years ago, my dad just up and left.

And he changed completely, completely. And he changed his life completely. And I spoke to him for the first time on the phone in eight years, about six weeks ago. And it was like speaking to a complete stranger. And I think that's what I worry about in this is like I recognize moments where I'm like, this isn't the person I've known my entire life. Does she know the resonance of what's happening between you and her with what you just described with your father?

No. Okay. I don't want to be like centering myself in all of this. Oh, but it would explain so much. That's not about putting yourself at the heart of the story. That's about saying to her, I'm beginning to understand why I have reacted the way I have. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think that's the thing is I'm worried now that that's what she believes is that, you know, that I'm looking down my nose at her for something, you know, I've never expected her to ever make the same choices in life as me. We never have made the same choices. We've lived very different lives in many ways. But yeah, like, I'm not sure if she, if she would arrive at that conclusion. I guess it's just, it never feels like the right time, does it, to ever bring up something like that.

Write it to her. Write it. Because then she'll read it when it's a good moment. Does that appeal to you? Yeah. I guess it's one of those things I wouldn't have ever thought about, really. To write or to say those things I think to write it just because that was like something that my my dad had tried doing with us initially and it always

used to frustrate us because we were just like just talk to us know, like we'll hear you, but you know, we want to be in the same room. We want to have a dialogue. When you spoke to him, were you able to tell him any of that? Um, not since like the first year that he did. he made it pretty clear that the only way that we were going to have any semblance of a relationship is if he could involve his new wife in everything which none of us felt really prepared for and that's what you're also seeing in your friend's husband? I will never see her alone. I'm going to have to deal with him all the time. I'm a little bit worried about it. And I am concerned that just because of the boundaries that they have in their own relationship about the things that they can and can't talk about what's on limits what's off limits

i worry that that's going to start kind of seeping into my relationship with her and in some respects it already has specifically Specifically, give me an example. Well, I guess most of it, again, comes back to what we discussed before. You know, like obviously she's kind of preempting things that she thinks I'll be judgmental of her for. I think part of it is also a lot of my passions and the work that I do is around, you know, politics and social issues. And I've noticed such a change in tone between us when these things come up. And this

is something that I think so much of the country is contending with right now. And because my work is centered in this area, it makes it really hard to talk about what's going on with me and my life in a lot of ways. So she's, what you're hinting at is that her politics are changing and that now you're feeling like she's veering off in a different point of view. And therefore, if you tell her what you do, what's going to happen? It feels like, you know, there's the other side of the story that you've not thought about, that you've not considered. You know, the media is sensationalizing this kind of stuff. other side of the story that you've not thought about that you've not considered um you know the media uh is sensationalizing this kind of stuff and you know just kind of these more kind of bold

claims that I don't really agree with but also like having a background in media know, I trust my sources and the work that I do. And so it's, it's a bit awkward. So there's a few thoughts I have, right? The first is the friendship itself, and tension that has increased between the two of you, because each of you feels judged by the other. So there, I do think that just telling her about where you're coming from, how you understand the way that you have reacted toward her is not a way of putting yourself in the center, but is actually a way of, you know, giving an understanding about why you became so harsh and why fear got masked into judgment. But then the second thing is you're not marrying this man. And so you don't know where he came into her heart, into her life, into her loneliness this year and him, his family, what they have done for her,

who they have been for her, how they received her. And those things are not about politics. You know, if you want to stay her friend on some fundamental level, you will have to be able to develop a relationship that is about the curiosity around the difference rather than about the complicity around the similarities. If you think that he's harmful, if you think that this is a threatening, dangerous situation, if you think any of those things, that's a different conversation. But I don't hear that. And stop me if I miss something.

No, I don't think that is at all his agenda. I don't think that is what's occurring. It's just more the kind of like emotional distance that's being created in a way. You know, part of what you're dealing with is a childhood friendship that is wondering if it will be able to become also an adult friendship. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's the thing is like, I think both of us have always had this vision of us like being like old ladies, like walking down the beach together with like, I don't know, like fur coats on or whatever. But you need norms for that friendship. And the norms may be shared interests, shared values, shared activities, shared community, or it may be, you know, a deep sense of care. I'm here for you, no matter what, wherever you are and whatever you do, even though we may find ourselves in completely different worlds.

They're different kinds of best friends. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think of ourselves as being the latter. And I think she does as well. It's just been such a weird year. Tell her what you're telling me, what's happened to us. And I'm going to come and I want to make sure that we reconnect and not we're hanging by a thread.

Does that give you some clues? Oh, definitely. Wonderful. Thank you so much Chester you're welcome I really appreciate it okay bye-bye you're welcome bye next time on where should we begin like I, I've looked up to you for so long. For a while, I didn't know I had any value in that chain. And I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs, where it was like, oh, I actually don't need you either.

You know what, I'm cool. And I was hoping that me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, what about us? So many deep, powerful questions that surround this unique relationship called my best friend. You're my favorite person to take on the world with. I realize and recognize it now. Like when I said I want us to be lifelong friends

because I want you to be in my life, like in my life, not like checking in here and there, but like, you know, be best friends. And that's what these two young men came to explore with me. Actually, that's what they came to explore with each other. They just needed a space where they could talk and realize how much they had shared, but also how much they had never spoken.

Next time on Where Should We Begin?