Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - My Husband, His Other Wife, and Me

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

They were aid workers who met abroad, fell in love, and came to the States to get married. After two years, her partner returned to his home country to fulfill his familial duty and marry his brother's widow. Esther talks her through what comes next. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we begin, I wanted to ask you, when was the last time that you had a really good date? One that starts with anticipation and that activates your imagination and builds into a tantalizing uncertainty of what will happen next. I would like to invite you on a date with me. Bring a group of your friends, bring a lover, bring a blind date or take yourself on a solo date and join me at an evening with Esther Perel starting this April as I embark on my first ever US tour. We will be meeting in person, something I've been so wanting to do, IRL, to discuss some of the same themes that we explore on the podcast, Where Should We Begin? Get your tickets at estherperel.com. I've been with my partner about six years. We're aid workers who met abroad,

and we moved actually to the States, like to America. We have been together. We were a love relationship, but we kind of got married for paperwork. I don't know that we would have done that otherwise. We are technically divorced now, but that was also for paperwork. And, I mean, he jokes that we can technically divorced now, but that was also for paperwork. And I mean, he jokes that we can get remarried, but we don't look at the marriage necessarily as the important part.

But I think it does play a part of this conversation. The bigger thing is that he basically flew home recently to marry his brother's, who has passed away, widow, who has two children. I know it sounds like a very crazy thing because he's from a very different culture, very different religion from me, very, like, in many ways, just very different background, which we always saw as a source of strength. We were so proud of ourselves in some way for like bridging cultural divides and things. But this one is a really hard one for me to kind of get around or get behind. So I did move out. And, you know, we're still in this limbo of figuring things out.

But I am really torn on if I'm doing the right thing. It felt so unnatural to move out, especially because you could say in the lifetime of our relationship, I really didn't rock the boat and I did things to please him, like consciously and unconsciously. I was just in love and I was extremely loyal, as he calls it. He never imagined I would have done something like this, because it's really unnatural for me.

And now processing what's right and how do I know? And is it okay if something doesn't feel natural and right? Could it still be right? So I've just heard her recorded question and i get that part of what we're going to talk about is shall i stay or shall i go or i have made a step to, but I don't fully own this step. I've done it at the urge or the urgency of my friends and family. How do I own it? because it seems that the stance that she took till now was more one of subsuming her beliefs and ideas and needs. The practice of marrying the widow of one's sibling,

particularly of the brother, is a practice that takes place in various religions. Polygamy takes place in various cultures and religions. And for the sake of privacy, in this case, I'm going to leave out the specific cultural, racial, and religious backgrounds of both people, because the story is intensely cultural, but also transcends it to something that is intensely human. Tell me why we are here. What it is that you would like for us to unpack? I have been with my partner about six years now.

We're in this limbo state now. And the long story short, very summarized, is that we're from very different backgrounds, which we were aid workers and we met abroad, and it was kind of part of our story that we both loved. I am from America. My parents were immigrants twice. The reason I mentioned this is I think I've always been very interested in cultures maybe or I'm not totally fitting in in America so I tended to gravitate maybe towards men from different cultures. So we always thought it was like a miracle that we met each other and like a love story and many challenges from the beginning and I think a lot of them are cultural. Give me an example.

He doesn't communicate as much as I would like. Like, I think in the culture, you don't say what's not nice, because that's being good maybe, whereas I'm very much from a talking family or at least talking very openly or, let's say, having secrets. Not full secrets, but he's very, very private because I think he was raised in a very big family system, whereas I'm from a very small family. So he got used to kind of, you know, it's not okay that everyone knows his business. He learned to privatize, whereas I am in chronic overshare, people pleaser. I don't only want everyone to know things about me. I like knowing the full story.

Yes. I mean, one partner saying my partner doesn't communicate is just about boilerplate couples therapy. Yes. So differences take place in a context. So your context is the one that lends you to make meaning. So this is differences take place in a context. So your context is the one that lends you to make meaning of this difference. And then you say there's something about gender, something about a large family where you need to learn to create some separateness and privacy versus a small family where you try to reach out to the other people so that you hear that there's someone else in the house. Okay. And what were you doing together so that you met as humanitarian aid workers? Yes. And I was working for an NGO and him too, but different organizations. And we came to the, basically to the U.S.

after a year and a half. He had decided that maybe he wanted to get another nationality, which I think for him is smart. But I have a very wise sister. She was kind of, you know, giving me advice at that time. And she was like, why would you go to another country and him when you guys can come here? But we came here in the end of 2018. And there's been many ups and downs. Mostly just very in love. And I think just drawn to him. But maybe our relationship was not always very strong in dealing with issues or how we fought. I guess when I'm saying little things, like even sexually, we did have an exploring phase.

He used to be quite wild. And I didn't know this until we came to the States. And it was quite shocking for me because on the sexual side, I'm quite traditional. I guess maybe it just hadn't really been a huge exploration of mine, whereas it was of his. Basically, he had been to kind of more like the swinger, like orgy lifestyle, like multiple partners. Okay. And I had never. Thought of group sex. Yeah, group sex.

That's the right phrase. I don't have a problem with any of the lifestyle stuff. I think I'm a bit territorial where I want my man to only have eyes for me. So I've grown in that way where it's like, okay, I started to notice no man can just be like, I only see you. I'm only turned on by you. That's maybe not realistic. But sharing your partner was hard. And we did it numerous times in different contexts, but not at the point where I was like, I love this.

And it stopped, therefore, or it continued or something else happened. We've had many caveats or like kind of like ups and downs, but in the end, we did leave it. We made many different arrangements in our relationship. This is very funny, but if we weren't going to do that, I wasn't allowed to do something else that bothered him. But we swapped that arrangement. He himself also was kind of like, we can take a break from this for a while. The reason I also mentioned that is not only because it was quite trying for me, because I was trying to push myself, but then not comfortable in being thrown in this. The recent situation, which is actually how I had reached out,

is that he was pushed by his family to marry his brother's widow. And they're now married, technically. And this is totally different than like group sex. But it's funny because it's a different boundary of mine or different comfort zone being challenged because he thought I'd be okay with it because he says about me that I was just the most perfect girl, so loyal. And I think that's something important in his culture as well. And I basically moved out when he went home. I had told him I would move out, but he didn't really hear me or we were not so good at communicating.

So he was so devastated when he kind of came home and I had taken my stuff. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Does his family know that he is married in the United States with another woman? Is the family aware there is a first wife? Or is everybody thinking that this woman is actually the first wife? It took a while for his family to know. His siblings and his mother knew because I used to FaceTime with them. His father's a big figure in his life. I say that because he's like the only person he's a bit scared of, kind of. And he told him when he went this time.

And I tried many times to be like, let's go talk to your father. He basically told me it wouldn't matter because they look at it, not to be rude, but I'm expendable. I'm just some foreigner. And great, you have your wife. So then here's another one you need to kind of take care of. Like who's even asking him if it's love? It's kind of like a family obligation. So I get my partner that this was thrown on him and he didn't want it. But even like, where do we go from there if he didn't want it? And so if I understand your question, tell me if I hear it well. I see myself as an adventurous, open-minded, deeply curious, wild person. And I have pushed myself multiple times in my relationship

with my husband. And my question today is, how much more can I do? Part of me thinks I should be able to because I'm that wild, open, stretching, curious, accommodating person. And part of me wonders, at what point do I say, this doesn't work for me? And respect that and not interpret it as I'm narrow, I'm closed, I'm biased, I am not curious enough, etc. And you're hanging on the, do I have personal permission to say this is more than I can handle, or this is more than I want to live with?

To what extent do I have to interpret everything within his framework, cultural framework, gender framework, family framework? And to what extent can I use my own? Is that the question? Yeah, I love that question. I think you did. You managed to frame it. I think just one component that maybe I had started, I didn't mean to speak about me being wild because I actually, until we spoke, never thought that's part of it. I feel like I've let him down by moving out. And while I'm talking to you, see, I'm like starting to cry because I think everyone in the world is telling me I was right to move out. I was encouraged. But I still feel like I betrayed him. And I'm not sure I can. And they wanted you to move out while he was away

because they thought you wouldn't be capable of doing it if he's around? I think that was even me, to be honest. I have no strength when I'm around him. And it was cruel how it happened. Although he knew, I told him. He even knew I wanted to take a sublet and take time, but I think doing it while he's gone felt hostile, and I get him. And your people around you is friends and family or siblings or parents? Exactly. Friends and family. Unfortunately, well, my father has passed away and my mother knows my partner, but she doesn't know what's going on. I couldn't bring myself to explain all this to her. Usually I'm very open, but we all have a

complicated relationship, I guess, with my mother. And I think this is, she is the person that would not react well to this story. And how many siblings are you? Three. I'm the middle child. Everyone thinks what he did is not right. And that empowered me. And I felt that I need to move because we've been having challenges. But what he did is not right is what, what is the part of that, what he did? Well, that's the weird part. I think what's not right about him is that he's not so transparent and he knew he was supposed to marry her before he met me, but he thought he could avoid it and never have to do it. So I get that part of him because he's very charismatic and active and he maybe thought he could kind of never deal with this. But what a big thing to like, oops, not tell your partner that might

affect our life. I think that when I imagined this wedding happening and I know it was consummated, I'm not saying he enjoyed it. And now she calls him and she knows about me and she's, I have no hatred towards her. She knew about me too, but just knowing that she calls him and that they talk and they speak in a language I don't understand. Those were the parts that I was like, can I really handle this? Or is it good for me? And your family thinks that you've lost your mind? Oh, yeah. That you're under the spell? Oh, yeah. That he wanted just a passport? They don't think that. I think outsiders think he maybe just wanted a passport, but I don't believe we were together for a passport. I think he did things in my mind, not correctly by not being

transparent or maybe being a bit selfish, but I don't think I was like used for that. But your family thinks that you're under a spell with someone who is not. See, this is the question, right? How much of this is cultural and how much of this is, you know, the man decides? So that you are in a very clearly delineated patriarchal structure. And your family is thinking, here is this modern woman. We didn't leave our countries and come to the United States to find ourselves back in the position that our grandmothers were in. And so what's happening to you?

You're trying to be so kind to him. You're trying to constantly explain him. You're trying to be so understanding of him. And in the process, you're losing yourself. Yes, that's actually so understanding of him. And in the process, you're losing yourself. Yes, that's actually so true. Yes. And it's not about can you handle it, but it's about where are you? So they're trying to fish you back. And so they told you to leave while he was away, because like you, nobody trusted that you could do this when he was around. Yes.

Right. So then he comes back and you've moved out to somebody or to your own new place? My sister's basement, yes. Okay. And then he is all upset because he thought you would wait and you would acquiesce to the new situation and it shouldn't bother you at all because, after all, I'm here with you. And it shouldn't bother you at all because the other is a marriage of obligation and tradition and you're the marriage of love. And it shouldn't bother and it shouldn't bother, but it does bother. Exactly.

He either thought that I would acquiesce or he might have been as, maybe he was shocked, as I was, that I actually moved out. Although I had told him I'm doing it. Yeah, but that's irrelevant. No, it's not irrelevant. It's perfectly nice of you and forewarning of you to tell him. But the issue is more, what is his view on your making autonomous decisions? Yeah, good question.

I mean, and what kind of decisions does he think you can make? You know, when he made his decision, it wasn't a joint decision. He basically said, I'm doing this. I have to. And basically, you're answering him now with the same this. I have to. And basically you're answering him now with the same words. I have to. You maybe are equal for the first time. Yeah. And I think neither of us are comfortable in it. And I feel it's such a cliche, but I feel such guilt. For what? I had his complete adoration that I was so loyal and great and I would follow him and be with him in every journey.

And now our lives are upside down. And I don't want to follow him necessarily. So you're saying he adored me because I said yes to everything. I'd never contested. I was intensely loyal and I followed him faithfully like a shadow. And so my bargain is between I reclaim my own shadow, but I lose his admiration or adoration, or I continue to be adored, but I lose my own sense of authenticity, my own identity. It's exactly. It's a bit of a Faustian bargain, right?

I get to be me, but I lose him. Or I get to keep him, but I forget who I am. That is 100% it. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. I think I want to be me because although I'm passive and confused, I'm not so passive and confused as I thought. I think I don't articulate well, and I'm kind of maybe quirky or all over the place, but I have opinions or I have thoughts. What would they say if that part of you could speak freely? It can't even speak freely

because it's so colored with being almost like addicted to him. But it would say, I want a relation where you're allowed to have privacy, but you talk about things that are hard in the interest of, like, I want him to be the vigilante of our relationship, to look after, are we talking enough? Are our needs being met? Am I going to find us a counselor? That's what would maybe have brought me back after I moved out to say, I do feel that part of me is not being met. Like, I think I overshare. I think I've learned, yes, you don't need to have everything black and white clearly on the table. Like, you don't need to say every feeling like I do. But I think it's important to not guess what your partner's feeling or what's going on at home, because I spend a lot of mental energy doing that. So that's just in terms of our

communication, what I would like you spend a lot of energy doing i think trying to figure out um if he was upset or if something was i was trying to like figure things out without getting direct input and it was exhausting yes but what I'm hearing is that you became completely colored by him. You spend your whole time focused on him. Him, his needs, his story, his duty, his obligation, his family, his passport. I mean, this could happen no different even if he was from the neighborhood next to yours. It has colors because it brings, you know, it is an exoticism to your story. completely surrender your own personhood and make the person next to you the project of your life and the person who is at every moment going to tell you who you are

but then when he finally told you you are wife number, it was one too many. Yeah. It was kind of a clear like, oh, no. Because I'm willing to forego everything for you and to be your most loyal puppy, as long as you adore only me. Yeah. It's sad a little bit, you know? Oh, it's sad. I've had a lot of sadness, honestly. You know, money stuff. I didn't see my friends as much. We'd moved back to the States, so I hadn't been here for so long. I was kind of isolated. I also have body damage, which I don't, damage, like body issues. I had a few abortions. I was quite intense. Two of them were with him. So I have a bit of pressure physically in that area and I get worried, let's say. And that's another,

when I go through reasons that like, this isn't good, I think about that, that like, I'm bearing those scars. He got someone pregnant and gets to walk. I know that's not about culture, that's just gender, but it's just, it's annoying. Those things add up. And why did you go through the abortions? And did you want to go through the abortions? I did. I think I was impulsive.

Just immaturity, to be honest. I was not acting like an adult. And that's why I'm mad at myself but you don't play with your body now that I'm over 40 I realized that so I really regret um I think he basically had the idea that we uh we don't have to use condoms and stuff but I wasn't on birth control. But I was so naive that I didn't think I'd get pregnant so fast. And I did. And not just once, but twice. And then you chose not to keep the child and to terminate the pregnancy because? The first one is because we were not even sure we're going to be together because the religion difference was huge for him at first so we thought we're just going to end up being a fling the second one with him was uh

we had kind of had a fight and he kind of told me you know let's not be together but then he changed his mind that's so typical of us that it was already too late like we'd broken up basically. So this has not always been a stable relationship. Okay. Are you hoping to hear keep course or reverse? Because I'm not going to answer you, you know that. I know. It's exactly what I wanted to know. I don't even need an answer like that. I think I wanted you to say, keep Cora says, and it's okay that you are trying to not be with him right now. Because there are reasons. You're telling me that you're trying to extricate yourself from a very entangled web. Your family is trying to be protective of yours and they're trying to be protective of you because

they look at you closely and they realize it's not just you lost your mind, but you've lost yourself. And you've lost perspective. And you've lost the ability to see yourself separately from how he sees you. Yeah. And that is never a good picture of a relationship, regardless of cultural context. The ability to maintain one's own sense of personhood and integrity is essential to any relationship between two human beings. Wow. I think I've struggled with it way before him even, but this was the most.

I welcome this insight. I think it's, I've thought of it too. It's probably not your first crush, but it is the one that has been most intense and most deeply piercing inside of you. And if we had more time, I would of course explore with you what that represents for you, where that comes from, what's your family, you know, what are the parts of you that are activating this complete loss of self in relationships, at least in romantic relationships. I'll be everything you want me to be as long as you adore me. Or adore me and I'll be everything you want me to be as long as you adore me. Or adore me and I'll be everything you want me to be. But this guy made a mistake. He's adoring in the plural and that suddenly didn't fit your script. And if that didn't happen, I could imagine you continuing this for a while longer,

regardless of all the other shit that would happen. All the other issues that would happen, all the other issues that would take place, you would continue and you would justify him, rationalize him, explain him and excuse him at your mercy, on your behalf, on your account. Yes. I think it's a small miracle that I got the energy or balls to move out. I would have never. You're right. Yeah. Just because he did one thing that challenged the script. How old were you when you moved the first time? I was five months when I came to America. So I really grew up here, but in a quite

white waspy town. And I think even being an immigrant there was, even though I wasn't an immigrant, my parents being an immigrant, I felt it. Yes, you grew up in an immigrant home that wanted to partake in some aspects of American culture but not all. Yes, yeah exactly. But it leaves open this question of what is this need of mine to subjugate myself completely for the reward of being adored? How much lack of self-love do I experience that I need somebody else to provide me the full dose of it? Yes. Wow, I would love to solve this question. Okay. So this is the question I want to leave you with

because it will inform you how you stay the course. Okay. This will be my next journey. You know, be you with him or be you not with him, this still remains the central question wow that's very um it helps me so much because i i've been fixating on should i go or no and i wanted to get to a point to think about like i knew it's partially me do you have a therapist of your own i just started um yeah because other you know because

right now you have your husband probably saying you've lost your mind and you have your siblings saying you've lost your mind but and if you go back you've definitely lost your mind so everybody is telling you that you've lost your mind so you need a space, a person, a relationship with whom you can sort things through and trust your mind and your heart and your body and anchor yourself. You know, the nice thing about an anchor is that it's inside the water, but the boat moves. You're not stuck, but you're rooted. Anchor myself, that's a good image. And I know you're doing something that feels like a root canal.

To extricate yourself from him is like a root canal. And it's very, very scary and very painful. And you're gonna get angry at at yourself which is not going to be the most useful thing to do but nevertheless and we don't really have the time together to go into all of that but i hope you don't just go back and forth between angry at you and a little angry at him and angry that you just simply take stock of what has happened in those last few years. And it will be hard sometimes, like around the abortions and around... Yeah.

To take responsibility, but not necessarily to clobber yourself. All right? That's very clear for me. Thank you so much. It means the world to me and thank you again. You're welcome. In her description of herself,

she mentions various ways in which the script of adoration and uniqueness and irreplaceable are essential to how she connects with him and maybe with other men. addicted. I'm a people pleaser. I was loyal. I never rocked the boat. I have accommodated in every way possible, including in practicing group sex with him, which is the opposite of what I want since all I want is for him to have eyes only for me. I accept finally that he can't have just desire for me, but the thought of him not belonging to me or being mine is intolerable. And for that, she abdicated so much. She only alludes to it, but I'm sure it's probably even more than what she alludes to. And in his marrying this other woman for which he needs to divorce her, in him not telling it to the most important member of the family, which is the father,

certainly in this patriarchal culture that he comes from, neither, of course, did she tell her mother. But basically, this is a kind of a hidden relationship on some level that lives on the margin that only some people know about. And as he goes and marries this other woman who now calls him, as she describes, she realizes that she's one of two. There's nothing about her at this point that makes her the one and only and that is it seems to me the primary place from which she drew the strength to move out i don't think that anything her family or friends may have said to her that they observed about her in very well-meaning protective ways, maybe judgmental ways as well, had nearly the

same effect as the fact that he made a unilateral decision. He's very upset with her making a unilateral decision, but so did he. And it's not clear that he comes from a conception of marriage in which men and women in this case have equal unilateral decision-making power. So the story can be seen completely within a cultural lens, but interestingly, the story also very much transcends a particular cultural lens. And the experience that she talks about in the complete subsuming of herself for the sake of him loving her so that she can love herself more is a human story. This was an Esther calling.

A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther and could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel

is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.