Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - No Longer Daddy's Little Girl

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Esther speaks to a woman who has been estranged from her father for almost two years for reasons she can’t quite figure out. Despite multiple attempts on her end to reconcile, she is now trying to grieve the loss of her still very much-alive father. Esther helps her unravel questions about starting her own family amidst this painful cutoff.  Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail].  Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My dad decided to cut me off his life for almost two years now and I still deeply don't know why. I tried to communicate with him multiple times but he really doesn't want to deal with me anymore. So I decided to start a grieving process more than a year ago now and I find it extremely hard. How can I grieve my father that is still alive especially with the reason he gave me? To me these reasons are unfair and doesn't justify to cut somebody out your life. My husband and I want children in the near future. I know how important grandparents are for grandchildren and how important the relationship is. And I know that my father is a good grandfather to my nephews.

I don't want to deprive my future children to see my father, but I don't know how if I don't have a relationship myself with him. On the other hand, I know that I will want to protect them and I'm worried that he could cut them off his life and I don't want that. I know it's a hypothetical situation, but it still doesn't help me with my grieving process. Listen, we all love a good hustle. We all love a rise and grind mentality. But let's be real, you could do all that

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by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash box CA terms and conditions apply. Hiring indeed is all you need. Tell me about you in brief, you know, because I know this a whole decades of life. But tell me something important. What is relevant for us to know that can be helpful in this moment about your relationship with your dad, about the origin of this cutoff, about how the other members of the family are implicated are implicated and dealing with it. I kind of know where it landed, but I don't really know where it took off from. I think the most important thing to understand the situation for you to know is, so my parents divorced

when I was seven. My dad was never there for us. And it's funny because I never heard my parents fight with when I was a kid, I thought he was healthy, which I realized is not anymore anyway. He didn't want the custody, but because he was working all the time and I never... He didn't want custody? No. Uh-huh. So, but he had to have me one weekend on the other. This time my sister was not interested to see him because we were just working all the

time and I wanted to do the same work than him. So to me, I was, you know, have a long time with my dad and I was doing what I was loving. So I was super happy with that. It goes on and on and it took me a while before getting a vet school. And those years were fine. We had a good relationship when I got in. And he helped me a lot.

One of the things I think is important also to know is when I was at school and I was not working, so it's actually my dad that decided to come with a concept to say, look, it's your study. We want to help you, but you concept to say, look, it's your study, we want to help you but you need to pay a part of it. And where I'm from is not as expensive as the United States. But anyway, so we decided, my dad offered me to pay a third, my mom a third, and me a third.

And it go on and I took maybe a not wise decision, but at some point I still a long time to the university as it was not working and I want to do more stuff and I didn't want to ask for more money because it was my own experience. So I decided to take a loan to do clinical rotation shift to let's be honest enjoy life as well. That was not the most responsible decision that I took, but I always assume it. Meaning you took responsibility for it. Yes. Assumez in French is different in English.

Sorry. To assume in French is supposer. What you're saying is I owned my decision. I own my decision. Yeah. Yeah. And it's true that especially it's funny money always been a big taboo in the family and I was seriously not comfortable to tell that to my dad. So every year when he was asking me, you know, how's the budget?

Are you okay? And I was, yes, I'm fine. And if I need more money, I want, you know, how's the budget? Are you okay? And I was, yes, I'm fine. And if I need more money, I'll take it. So I didn't talk to him about it. My sister was aware about that. Other member of my mom was aware about that too. Who is the first child? My sister.

So you're the youngest. Correct. Okay. And you were the closest? When I was younger, yes. Yes. But that matters. People don't often cut off people that are far away from them, you know? So, you made some financial decisions on your own that he didn't know about. And he thought we are close and we have made the decisions together. And he had a reaction to your going off on your own and doing whatever you did financially and related to your studies without involving him.

Yeah. Yeah? I think that's correct. OK, and then? Well, and then I think, you know, I'm doing the same work than both of my parents. I know that the proudness is not the same. My mom always been happy for me because she knew that it's what I wanted to do. I always feel that my dad, a part of it was proud because I was doing what he was doing

and he wanted me to take the family business. And a part of me always wanted to do it because I know how much energy and effort he put into it. But on the other hand, I was not sure. I wanted to dissociate myself with my father. He has a really, really good reputation. So I wanted to be sure that if I would have been good, it's because I'm good, not because I'm his daughter, you know. So when I graduated, I decided to leave in the

United States for two reasons. I was thinking, well, let's be honest, the salary is better here. So I was really naive to think that I could pay my loan in five years-ish, but it's what I thought at first. And plus I wanted some experience and see what I worth it. And after the first year, which didn't go well, my dad knew about the… somebody told him about my alarm and it just exploded. And that is eight years ago. He was extremely mad and he told me that he didn't want to deal with my fucking problem anymore and that's enough. So… But may I ask you, he was mad that you hid taking a loan from him? He was mad. What was

he mad about? He was… So for what I understood, he was mad that… And it's true, I have good loan. That's the thing, it was irresponsible at the time. So when he realized the amount of debt that I had, it's the fact, I think he maybe feels used, and I send you his last text he sent me. I think he felt used and not appreciative of the help he gave me. And maybe also a part that he was not aware about that. I think it's a combination of all that. Yeah. So he tried to help you and your loan made him feel that whatever he gave was not enough. I gave you money for X and you did nothing with it or I gave you money and obviously where is the breach? Honestly, I'm not sure.

The money he gave me, I always use it for what it was supposed to be, paying my grocery, the apartment, my school. Why does he feel used? I mean, basically, he feels betrayed. But I don't understand why he feels betrayed. What did you do? Well that's the thing too. And it's one of the problems is those are taught, but I don't even know that that's

why because it was on me and I took full responsibility for this loan. And I grew up in one way was not of his business. And I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way. It's just, that was what I decided to do. I think he felt betrayed that other people knew about it and not him. Um, and the last text he sent me, he said that I was acting like a spoiled little princess that I was not able to see the effort he put to make this money and to give it to me. Can I ask you something? Yes. Is there a history where money is at the center in your

family history, years or even generations before? Have there been other betrayals, breaches, slights that involved money? I don't think so. The only thing that I can see, Marai told me after the divorce, which he told me that he was almost bankruptcy and he had to choose between his job and the family and he decided to choose the job to save the work. I mean I know that when he started his business, you know, I mean it took time, he could have spent a few days without having any call, but we never had money issue. I know his parents, his dad worked really hard as well. So they were not rich, but not poor, were in the middle.

And for us, I mean, my dad always been the financial provider. And it's true that... Here's the thing. Money is often not just money. Money is often not just money. Money is loyalty. Money is self-worth. Money is love. Money is being taken advantage of. Money is recognition or lack of recognition. Money is power. Money is fear of scarcity. Money is a lot of things emotionally. And obviously, you did something that involved money, and for some reason, it really pierced him wrong to the point where he rejected one of his two children. And when it goes that deep, it often is beyond logic. It's not at premier degré, first degree.

It's not at premier degré, first degree. I borrowed, I had debt, it's my money, it wasn't really his issue. I didn't do anything wrong with the money he gave me. It goes somewhere which he may or may not know, and which you may or may not know. what was it that hurt him so deeply that he was willing to spite himself and to cut himself off from the child he was closest to? That usually means it's big. It's not big because it's huge, it's big because of the tear that it creates inside someone. And a cutoff is rarely distance. It's meant to create distance, but in fact, it demands a lot of psychic energy to not think about someone. It sometimes takes more energy not to think about someone than to think about them. So cutoffs often happen only with people who are really close, and it feels impossible to hold the contradiction between how I love my child and my child did something that I find unforgivable. And that's why I ask if there was anything in the family

history where people did unforgivable things, or have there been other cutoffs for that matter in previous generations? So yeah, so here's the thing, nobody did something really wrong and actually I'm extremely lucky because both side of my family are, it's really good family, there is no big drama, nobody in jail, no nothing big. Good. But, I know, there is always a but. It's a pattern that my dad had, that, and we know, and my dad, the way it goes with him, you go to zero to zero.

It's black or white. And when at some point, and it's really not good with emotion, to express it, to feel it. And when at some point you decide that it's too much, it just got. And I saw that multiple times. It did that with one of his brother. Now, talk again together. Me, my mom, business partner, friends. And it's known. Even with my sister, we know that. Okay. Okay. So I asked the wrong question. Not the wrong question, but when I asked the

question, is there history around money? You said no, but I could have asked, or I'm asking now, is there history around cutoff? And you're telling me yes, many. If you're not with me, you're against me. Correct. If we can't be in harmony, then we are in irreconcilable conflict. Correct. And all the people that you mentioned that have been on the Sur le Ban, as we say, exiled, do they get entry permit again or it's for life?

Most of the time it's for life. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Running a business isn't as glamorous as you might think. There are thousands of hours of behind-the-scenes work to build infrastructure, develop products and attract customers. In fact, it's almost impossible to keep things running smoothly without a supportive, consistent team. If you want to add another member to that team, a platform you and your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify. Shopify is an all-in-one digital commerce platform that wants to help your business sell better than ever before.

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I realized at this time too that I may be overwhelming and it was too much and I understood why he was, he was in this mental status. So for maybe eight or ninth month, he didn't give me news and I didn't talk to him and then I tried slowly at a time to build a new relationship now that I knew that he didn't want to be involved with personal stuff. So I kept the relationship pretty superficial, you know, like, what did you cook this weekend?

You know, how's the weather? Stuff like that. And then, so it came back okay until August 2022 that I went back home and the last day we went, we had lunch and he brought me back to the airport. On the way there, he was talking against my mom on a really rude way. And then after that, he started to ask me questions about my mom. He said, how's she doing? So how's she doing? And it's true, I lie.

I was just fine. And I changed topic and I was not comfortable to go there. He told my grandmother after that, that that's the reason why he decided to stop talking to me. So I went back home. I tried to call him multiple times after that. And I usually… What do you mean that was the reason? The fact that you were in a triangle and that you didn't allied with him? Or the fact that you protected your mom? Or what about? He didn't sit this way.

So basically, he said that I lie in his face and I was disrespectful and not honest. So like he doesn't want to deal with people like that and he's sick of it. So I went back home and usually I was talking to him once a week or once every other week. And I start to text him and call him and he was not answering. Do you meet for family holidays still or zero?

I went back home last January. I saw my uncle, my grandmother on my dad's side. It's the elephant in the room. Nobody wants to talk about that. But no, I don't see him. When your producer reached me, she asked if my dad could be okay to participate. And it's kind of a good thing, but I was not expecting him at first to reach him. Actually, I reached his wife because I used to have a really good relationship with her. I didn't talk to her for two years, but it's a lovely woman. I always really loved her and had a good relationship with her. And I'm even wondering if it's not my dad's dad. And so that buddy kind of confirmed that right now he's extremely mad that I'm doing that. Extremely mad. There

is no hope to build a relationship or something. I tried multiple times. And do you think that your call to his wife is a one-time call or do you think you will stay in touch with him through her? Oh no. It was extremely clear. I just wanted to give her the opportunity. It said that actually, she said that my dad doesn't deserve to read the text I sent. That he's a good man, that I should work off my problem, that it did nothing wrong, how I dare to, you know, making all the reproach on him.

And I really appalled, you know, I said it's not what I want at all. I just want to make a good relationship and be helped by a third person. And it's coming with just good intention. And the last text she sent me is that don't insist. But knowing that this would be a deal breaker for him, you chose to do the session anyway. Yes, because I think it's already over. The deal is broken. It's way much before that. Again, since August, I tried to call him multiple times. At some point, he answered. He told me that he was mad at me that I lied to him and I told him this time I was really proud I said good we're gonna talk about it and he was really mad and he said okay I have two minutes and no it won't take two minutes and we need to be both in a good mindset so

call me back when you're ready and we could have this discussion together. He never called back so I wait two months and I decided to send him a video, eight minutes video, trying to explain everything I just explained to you and say that I was not, we don't have a real relationship. So it needs to build up one step at a time, but I will love that. But that's why it's hard sometimes for me to communicate with him. And on that, he emailed me an email that just said that I was using him, that I was disrespectful and...

The only way you would ever be able to come back, maybe not the only way, but the primary way that you would be able at this point to come back to Him is if you put everything on you, if you take responsibility for everything that has happened and you say, me bad. If you ask Him anything that involves him acknowledging whatsoever, that will not happen. But at this moment, what I'm hearing from you is I need to let him go for the time being. Probably he will be in touch with your children, even if he doesn't want to be in touch with you. doesn't want to be in touch with you? That's the thing. Honestly, again, to me, that's why I don't think there is a 1% hope inside of me that I wish it could happen. Okay, sometimes it does. Sometimes the grandchild brings the parent and the child back together.

I think the only reason why you would have contacted me again is rather if I'm, you know, when I'm going to be pregnant or if he's on his deadbed. How close are you with your sister? Very close. Okay. So you know that you have her and her children as part of your family. Mom? Mom, uh... Your face just answered. So mom will be a person who you take care of, but she will not be a resource for you. No. Okay.

My aunt though, my mom's sister, she's my second mother. She's amazing. And thank God I'm really close to her and my sister and we can talk of everything. So this will become a matriarchy? On my mom's side, we're only girl. And actually, yeah, it's the way I've been raised. But you know, it won't replace him, but it will buffer you to develop meaningful relationships with other members of your family and other people who will become your extended family. You can't replace the grandfather, but you can bring members of a chosen family. Yes. And it will be intergenerational and your kids will have other people and you have a partner,

right? Correct. Amazing partner. Okay. Wonderful. And he, she, they? He. He. Has a family that is involved, that some people are involved? So we are both really far away. He's from France. We don't have family members around us. We do have good friends though. But now I agree with you. I mean, giving support and love for our future children, I think, especially on my mother's side, I mean, we are already close, physically I'm not there, but I know I'm going to have a really good support. I'm 38 years old and I still have this need to have my dad that is proud and there that I have a really hard

time to grieve. That when I look the way he is and everything, let's say it would have been my father, most likely it would have been in my life. But there is this irrational part of me that still wants that even if I know that he is not able to give it to me and he won't. always been central for you. It's not so much my dad's physical presence, but it's my dad's approval of me, my dad being proud of me, my dad validating my choices. So you have gone to zero, but he is still the hero. See, yes, and even if mentally I know everything and you can be toxic sometimes, it's what makes me so mad. So why him? What do you mean?

Why him? Why is he the one whose opinion of you and whose approval of you and who… It's always fascinating, right, How we pick somebody to be the one which is not necessarily the one who will do it or do it well, but we get stuck there. I think it's always been like that since I'm young. I always, you know, the daddy girl, I always wanted that when I was four, or four, I remember. And I don't know, I've, you know, I'm just thinking that it's, you know, your father is your first man in your life. So it's the first man of my life, I would say that. And it never completely fulfills. So it's always like I always try to go for something that…

But you know, it's interesting because you on the one hand, you want his approval, his validation, his recognition. And on the other end, you went and did something completely behind his back to prove that you could do it yourself, that you didn't need his approval, that you could take your own responsibility, that you could make your own choices, that you could handle your own monies. So you're on both sides of the street. Just totally fine. It's true. No, it's true. And it's true to me to prove myself and to be independent and I make my own decision, it's really important, but you're right. Right.

So you want both. I want approval of my own choices and my own decisions. And he, in some way, by pushing you out, even though it hurts badly, I just want to make sure that that's repeated, is offering you the opportunity to free yourself from looking for water in the wrong place. Ciao. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

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Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision, overthinking, second guessing every choice you make. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige. On beige.

On beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Basically, the opportunity here is for you to actually become your own validator or to find other people to join the choir, but to be the one to, because if you make your own decisions, but basically you still want him to approve them, then they're

not so much your own decisions. It's semi-autonomy. True. Yeah. And I understand. It's like, I'm going to do my own thing, but it will only be valid if you tell me it's good. That's pseudo maturity.

Agree. So this is your opportunity to develop full maturity. It comes with more aloneness, but then you choose the people that you want to surround yourself with. But you're less in a half position. People who go to experience their autonomy behind the back, people who try to prove that they are independent by creating secrets, basically they're in a compromised position. Not here, not there. It's half.

Real independence is done in full broad daylight. Real independence is when you actually do your thing, you say it, and at the same time, you do as we say in French, tu l'assumes, you own it. But you don't need to do it behind the back because it's yours and you live with it. And in part, that's what he's pissed at. He can't say it to you, but I have a sense that that's because he took you as the girl who needs him and he acted accordingly and you went to prove to him, no, I don't need you, I can do this myself, but then you went and did it behind his back. And he is not a man who holds nuance.

So if you go behind his back, you're basically slapping him. So it's funny because I'm an open book for... Actually, the only person that I was not an open book is with my dad. Like you said... Yes, because he's the one you need the approval from. But you were first going to go and see if you can do this by yourself before you turn. You know, it's like you were so close with him for so long that in order to do something independently from him, you had to do it in hiding. And he didn't like that. And in effect, it did not let you develop a real sense of autonomy.

The real sense of autonomy is exactly that. It's done as an open book. If you need to go behind the back of the other person, it's because on some level, you're trying to push them away so that their opinion doesn't influence you, but their opinion lives inside of you. And so you try to shut them out in a way you did to him what he now does to you. You did it in a shorter version, in a much more malleable version,

but you pushed him out in order to be able to make your own decisions because he loomed very large inside of you. I think you're right. Yeah. So that says to me that grieving is one piece of the story here. I have to accept that he's not around. But the other part of the story here is this is unforeseen circumstances in which I'm going to really learn to own my independence and not to construct my independence in light of Him.

My independence has been completely intertwined with Him. What's He going to say? How is He going to react? What do And this absence creates a space in which I will need to really develop my own sense of autonomy without it being in reaction to him. Yeah. I think for the past year, I tried to build more of this self self and it was not there. How's that been? Getting better, really not perfect. And that's the thing, I hate to admit that, but I still have again this. Right. Yes, yes, the little girl wants to go and say, Papa, Papa, regard, see what I've done.

Exactly. Because it's okay to say, I don't always trust myself. I want to do it by myself, but I don't really trust myself. And I don't know how to live with the space in between, the action that says I know what I'm doing and the reaction that says but I'm not sure that this is the right thing for me, so to speak. And so I always counted on my dad to close the gap. And I'm going to learn gradually to close that gap myself.

That doesn't mean I become 100% sure of what I do. That means that I learn to live with the doubt, with the uncertainty, with the ambiguity, with the space in between. We all have that space in between. So how do you do that? You know, I chose to do this, and I hope that it's the right thing, but I don't fully know.

I think it is. It feels right, but maybe I'll know later. Maybe the time and maturation will tell me if this was a good decision. But in the moment, it's the decision I wanted to make. I don't need to be sure that it is the perfect decision, the right decision, the smartest decision, the only decision. It just is a decision. That's that space in between. And maybe I will think there was a better one later on, or I may think it actually made sense in the moment.

Feeling confident. A friend of mine very real often says, you know, confidence is your ability to see yourself as flawed, as imperfect, but still hold yourself in high regard. See, Beth, it's hard, really hard. That's your project. Your project is grieving him, yes, but the main project at this moment for you is that other piece because one will feed off into the other. Makes sense. You're right, I think what helped a lot in the past few years is my husband is wonderful and he provided me a really safe space that even when we are fighting, I know he won't leave, he won't, you know, he will be there and he will still love me. And he allowed myself to show him more my flaws and to accept it.

It's still baby step though. It's good. It's very good because in effect, you didn't really learn to trust your opinions because you were busy trying to please Papa. You wanted to please him. you wanted him to approve, you wanted him to like you, to admire you, to boast you, and therefore he had the confidence and you were just trying to match and please. And it left you with not enough skill to trust your own. Not to trust that you are perfect, that you know everything,

but to trust that you can live with the decisions you make and their imperfections. And your husband is offering you the opportunity to practice that. Even if you have a nasty fight, no, he has no intention of going anywhere. So you don't have to worry, if I don't please him, if I don't cater to him, if I don't placate him, I will be punished. Which

in effect is what happened with your dad. You went away, you did behind his back something that you really wanted. And for a moment you stepped out of your role of pleaser placater and here you were. You got punished exactly as you feared you would. So everything went according to script. I mean, you stepped out of your role and you got what you deserved so so to speak, from him. Of course, it's not what you deserve by no means.

But this was very conditional love. There's no unconditional love, but this was definitely conditional love. This is you do as I say, and I'm with you. You don't do as I say and I'm not with you. So you knowing that went ahead and did something behind his back so that you wouldn't have to confront him. Exactly. And that doesn't go according to him. And you have a new relationship in which you're going to practice and learn to trust yourself because you don't have to worry about being punished by your husband every time you don't please him. This was an Aster calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points

somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Aster, and it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.