Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Part of Me Wants to Cheat Part One

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

This episode contains discussions of a sexual trauma. Please take care listening. A woman in a healthy and loving relationship talks to Esther about the fantasies she has of cheating on her partner. Together they delve into whether these are truly adulterous thoughts or if this voice in her head is connected to the unresolved shame and trauma from an earlier sexual assault. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Please take this survey to help us plan for the future: estherperel.com/survey  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this following session, we discuss sexual assault, and I want you to know this before you listen. I'd like to talk about intrusive thoughts in a relationship. So I've been in a relationship for over two years now, and this person is amazing. He's super romantic, funny, really smart. And I truly love this person. However, I am constantly dealing with this internal voice in my head that tells me I should cheat on him and it's really really getting hard to in a way ignore the voice or to shut it up I guess um I've never acted on this it's just an intrusive thought that pops up every month or so I'd say and I guess my question is will this internal voice ever shut up or do I have to live with it throughout the life of this relationship? hi hey how are you good good and yourself i'm good what led you to send in your question? I've been trying to talk about this with someone for a couple years now.

Someone as a therapist? Yeah, so a therapist and then also friends and family. So I listened to your question. Okay. And have you had other boyfriends before yes yeah and what happened to the battery pack um so I've had two like serious relationships but they were in my early 20s and then I had like a five-year gap of where I after I went through a sexual assault and so I took a few years to really focus on myself I wasn't dating none of that and then it wasn't until a few years ago where I started dating again and this is he's my third boyfriend so and this is the first time that you grapple with thoughts in your head fantasies intrusive thoughts as you've called them um or is it

something that you are more familiar with it's definitely the first time I would say where it's been so constant. I feel like in my previous relationships, I've also had like, I was just dating people where it was nothing serious, like such relationships and all that. And yeah, if like these thoughts would come up here and there, but they would go away um but in this relationship where i feel like it's very stable very serious it's a constant like um thought that comes up in my head how would you call the voice if you gave it a name if i gave it a name because you're also saying that it's been there from the beginning. So it's not, how would you call it? Just, I would say like evil me. Evil me. So if it's that strong, give me a snapshot of what it says to you. How does it speak to you? What does it say?

Does it whisper? Does it scream? Does it scream? Does it bang? Does it? Yeah, it's sort of like, it talks to me in a way where it's like, well, obviously you need to cheat on him. Like in a way where it's like, it's just wanting to convince me to do it. Why so obviously? It's just for me, it's like, he'll never find out. So just me to do it. Why so obviously? It's just, for me, it's like, he'll never find out. So just, just do it. Like he's, you know. Do what?

What exactly do you want her to do? Like hook up with other people or go on dates with other people. Because she's bored, because the sex is lousy, because she needs to prove something, because there's a reaction that has to do with the assault that she experienced. What's your shtick? What's your purpose? Yeah. Since you've been there banging at her, since you've been there talking to her since the beginning, you're trying to make a point. Evil.

Evil voice. So what's the point you're trying to make? What are you telling her? That's what I'm trying to understand. I don't know. And it's not that I'm unhappy in this relationship. It's not that the sex is lousy. I don't know why it's constantly in my head.

What do you say? I'm actually just trying to get a sense of your voice and how you speak. Are you kind? Are you mischievous? Are you trying to get her in trouble? Are you trying to tell her she can't sustain a relationship? Are you trying to have her hurt a man after another seemed to have hurt her? I think this voice is mischievous.

It's sort of like... It's something that I can easily get away with, so why not do it? Yeah. For what? I don't think I'm trying to hurt him. No, you may not be trying to hurt him, but evil voice may. I've never thought of it that way.

I know. I see it on your face. Because the voice doesn't tell you, go and hurt him, get your revenge, you know. You show him, whoever the him is, and he becomes a stand-in for the hims. Because it tries to do it in this playful way, like, because you can get away with it, why wouldn't you? Why would you? I mean, what are you meant to find? That it's fun?

That you're capable? That you can get away with things? I mean, what's the purpose? And I don't ask you for an answer. I think we can spend some time with Evil Voice together. That's the name, right? Evil Voice? Yeah. Is it still the name? At any point you can change the name.

Yeah. But it's you and me meeting that part of you. And getting a sense as to what it is, why it's there, what it wants for you or from you, and why it's messing with you. Because it's not even that you say, I have fun fantasies. I fantasize other guys. Okay. Many do.

I imagine what life would be with somebody else, or sex would be with somebody else, or who life would be with somebody else or sex would be with somebody else or who I would be with somebody else. But they're interesting thoughts that I entertain. They don't gnaw at me. This voice isn't just a fun voice of fantasies. This voice is gnawing at you and kind of relentlessly wanting you to go and do something and convincing you

that you should want to yeah so when you say to me i never thought of it this way what do you say what do you mean but i never thought of what well the real me like the the non-evil voice me um i try to like live life genuinely as honest as possible as happy as possible and so i never would have thought that a piece of me would want to hurt this person that i love so much and and like you said, it might not be like, specifically him. It's just like he's in that place. So he happens to be the lucky one. But I don't know, like, I feel like logically, I would have been able to separate the two, you know? But you haven't. So if you allow yourself for a moment

to really understand what evil voice is after, why is it so angry? What is it angry about? And what is it looking for to restore something inside of you? What would you say? I don't know if it's angry. I think... Take your time. Take your time. Stay with it. Yeah. Because it's so weird, right? How can I be so angry? And how can a part of me want such revenge when I'm in the best relationship

I've ever had? How is it that it's coming up right now? It makes no sense. And yet it has a logic of its own. I think it would tell me that men are objects in a way where I can just hook up with this person and this other person doesn't need to know and it's like not emotion driven or it might be like you said it could be angry at my past and I'm trying to get revenge in a way or to get even because it's not like I'm emotionally attached to anyone in terms of like, oh, I should hook up with this person. It's not, I don't have any connection with them emotionally. Like none of that. It's just. If they're objects, then you don't. Yeah, exactly. If they're replaceable objects with whom you have a transactional relationship

just to know that you can maybe because that's how you felt. Yeah. Yeah. An object that you just take and toss. Yeah. I feel like I, from my time off

of like dating and just trying to focus on myself and realizing what I truly want in life, um, I feel like I grew from it. I just, I didn't realize that it's still in here, you know? Sorry.

No, sorry. You're being very courageous because this evil voice has tricked you. I mean, it's so vague that all you know is that it's relentless and you don't know why it doesn't stop. And suddenly, you find a reason for why it's there. It's not just there because you can't be faithful or because you have fantasies of other men or it's there because it's it's holding on to a piece of you that that may have been somewhat resolved when there was no partner but the very presence of this loving partner has reawakened the difference between feeling a woman, loved, desired, cherished, and how much of an object you felt.

And I know nothing about the assault, but an assault is an assault i mean i'm not asking you to tell anything about it but that feeling of being tossed used the means degraded yeah it's definitely coming out in this way yeah i definitely see it now i've never felt like i needed to get revenge i've never felt like i needed to get even so it's really interesting how it's coming out like this right now so late in my 20s you know know? In a part of you. That's evil voice. Yeah. But that's not all of you. You have another part of you

that is so happy to be with him and to create something and build something together. So it's not this versus that. They live together. Different parts of you have different things that they're working out.

Yeah. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Go further a moment so when it says you can use them you can fuck them and then what i want to hear because you call it a voice so it speaks to you yeah yeah can you imitate for me how it speaks to you does Does it have an accent? Does it have a particular timbre? How does it talk? Yeah. So I'll set the scene for you.

Okay. Let's go. Let's say I'm at the gym. And it's happened. This is like a great example. I'm at the gym. And like one time I locked eyes with someone. And my partner was away,

like states away. I was visiting family and the voice was like, just go for it. Like, you know, you want to just do it. He's not going to find out. No one's going to know.

Like, just, just go after him. Just cheat on him. And it, and it sort of tells me in a way where it's like, it's so obvious or in a way where it's just like, like common sense almost like, duh, might as well. The door's open.

Just go down that door, you know? And that's what confuses me because it doesn't come from like a malicious, it doesn't have a malicious voice or anything um it's talking to me like it's it's factual you know do you remember the first time you met it or heard it yeah yeah i do um it was in the beginning of the relationship uh it was before we made anything like official so I was still dating other people he was seeing other people um but I really started to like him and then I remember like the voice just said like, you know what, just hook up with someone else. Like what's, like I know you like this person,

but just hook up with this other person. So that. That I was saying or, yeah. And then finish the sentence, so that. Oh, so that. Hook up with this other person, so that, or, and then. I guess, so that I don't get so attached with him continue I think it's like because if I get attached yeah if I get attached I'll get hurt like how I was hurt years ago.

I get attached, like I make myself vulnerable to him, which I haven't done in a while. How much, if any, have you spoken with him about any of this or even about none of it does he know anything about the assault itself yes he does he does yeah but just the facts or what your experience has been um i think the facts uh i don't think i have ever talked to him about like how difficult it was for me like moving on and he's never asked no and would you want him to ask you? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's because before this call,

I believed I moved on from this. So him asking me, I feel like... No, no. Yeah, I may have moved on from this. I want your definition of what do you call moved on? You know, that's such an American expression. What do you imagine moving on looks like, feels like? For me, moving on feels like I'm no longer crying myself to sleep.

I can trust men again. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm happy. That's a major one. Like really happy. And I realized like what I truly want in men, it was back then I used to go for physically attractive. And now for me,

it's deeper, you know, like someone that I can feel this sort of like mental and emotional connection with someone that respects me and yeah i feel like i moved on from i guess i moved on from the old me from the person that used to choose men that would take advantage of vulnerable girls. Yeah. And those two are different, moving on from the situation versus moving on from the old me. Right, right. Yeah.

And just out of curiosity, not because I think you should, how come you've never talked about any of that with him? If you can trust him, if you know how much he values and respects you. I'm not talking about evil voice. I'm talking about how one recovers from trauma like that, how one learns to feel beautiful again, desirable, loving, happy, not crying, not ashamed, trusting, all of those pieces that are part of overcoming a traumatic event like this

i've never told him because i never thought happened, how long ago, what I did. Not what I did, but like, how long it took me to move on from that, quote unquote, move on from that um but yeah I just didn't think it was necessary to go into that dark hole and tell him actually it's the story not of a dark hole it's the story of how you you discover light again and hope and love but yeah I'm gonna throw the question, you know, just because it comes up to me. Can you imagine that at the same time as you thought it's not necessary, that it's not important, which I find, that there may be a part of you that actually wonders how come he never asked? Unless you made it so that he shouldn't. You know, you may put out an aura that just says, don't touch. But there may be a part of you that may also have wanted him to say,

what was, you you know not what was it like to be assaulted what has it been like for you to allow yourself to be with me to trust again to be touched to be hugged to that aspect um i've never questioned it and i've never really wanted him to ask so it's never really been like an issue and i think i've always chalked it up to he's just he never really asked for details he takes things as they are and it does like he helps you not go back to the dark corner because he doesn't ask he takes things as they come you present it as you do and therefore he doesn't push and you find that very alleviating yeah in a way I was yeah because when I finally told him I think it was like four months into our relationship and um I felt relieved pretty much like okay it's over I can

breathe now he knows my history and then like now we can move on with this beautiful relationship. Right. He knows an event in your history and he knows very little about the woman who processed this event in order to arrive to another stage of her life. To know an event of someone's history is not the same as to know the person.

Yeah. You get that. Mm-hmm. And in a way, I mean, so interesting, my mind is going in so many directions as I'm feeling you through the screen, so to speak, you know. And it's as if I'm thinking evil voice. So when I say my mind goes in many directions, it's like I just put things together.

I have no idea if what I say fits you. So you tell me hot or cold, you know. But there's a part of me that imagines evil voices trying to say, go, you can get away with it. Because he knows nothing. He doesn't look at the details. He doesn't ask. He doesn't ask, exactly.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. I think that's why evil voice thinks it's easy to get away with it. That's why he'll never know if I did it. Yeah. But I'm not sure that that's what you really want is that he never knows. See, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a hostility in there, right? Yeah. It's not just good. He will never know. There's hostility in there, right? Yeah. It's not just go do it. He will never know.

There's hostility in that sentence of some sort. There's a kind of, you know, I can do this because in any case, you don't ask. So that's how my evil voice translates yours. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And when I say this, I experience a certain hostility.

I'm mad when I say this. I'm not soft and sweet. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like, why doesn't he ask? Mm-hmm. In a way. How does that land on you? Because this is my twisted mind.

Yeah. May not be, you need to tell me. Yeah. When you say that, like, I think back in, like, with my relationship with him, and I'm always the one asking questions about his family about his past about his cousins you know his friends and he never really asks me questions about that I just willingly share um and I never thought that it bothered me

I always thought like okay cool like I just share things with him and he doesn't question them nice you know and I'm not suggesting it does but I have a feeling that evil voice minds. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us I always took it as him not asking questions I always took it as like he accepts me for what I've done and for what I've gone through. And it's okay with... That's true too. That's there too.

Yeah. That's there too. But he accepts me without knowing me. Yeah. He accepts me. But there's a little part inside of me that would like him to know who he's accepting. That would like him, when I bring something up, to ask a question about it. Not to cry, not to be invasive, just to not leave me all alone with how much I say.

And that you may be able to say to him. I notice that very often I ask questions and probably you don't because you want to respect that I say what I want and how much I want. But in fact, I would love it if on occasion you asked me something too, because I feel deeply accepted, but sometimes I think that you don't necessarily know who you are accepting. Yeah. And I would be very curious to know if, depending on how this conversation unfolds, what happens to evil voice? Yeah, definitely. Evil voice, I'm not even sure it's the right name anymore. What would you name it?

I am not the author of your voices. I don't title them. You will come up with a different. Because it has a purpose. The voice is trying to tell you something. It's trying to make you look at something that you have not wanted to see. There is a piece of revenge. There is anger that stays.

Understandably so it doesn't mean that you haven't moved on to the contrary these things coexist it's not that one eradicates the other and it is trying to also say this thing about he doesn't ask, you can do what you want, he will never notice, may not necessarily be what you like so much. Yeah. And so it keeps coming back all the time because it's waiting for you to take action, but not to take action by cheating on him necessarily. Mm-hmm. take action by cheating on him necessarily. If you told me that, you know, there's a different way of you talking to me about you, the way you look at other people, what you're drawn to, what you miss, the kind of experiences as a woman you'd like to have, then I would say, yes, this is

about, you know, transgression and attractions and desires for others, but I'm not hearing any of that i mean the word cheating may be used but i don't hear any you know adulterous thoughts here so to speak no no yeah i've never acted on it um and now that you mentioned it's not when it doesn't not harmful let's say we're at the grocery store and I put like my a bread in the in the basket and then I get like a heavy I don't know can of corn or something I'll throw it on top of the bread and in those instances like I let my intrusive thoughts win just to get a reaction from him like a little giggle on the inside

and it's sort of like the voice is sort of like a branch of that where it's like except it's a little more extreme but I guess I act that way also. Like, I do those small things that really bother him but make me laugh. Because it's sort of the same thing where it's like, he doesn't ask, why do you do this? He's just like, stop doing this. In a way. But it's never like, why are you doing this? What makes you want to do this?

You know, it bothers me. Like, no, he doesn't say that. Tell me how that sounds to you. I love feeling accepted. I would love it even more if I felt more of your curiosity. I love that. Yeah, I've never asked him about his curiosity, why it's not there, why he doesn't question things. He's always accepted the hand he's given or yeah so yeah and that's a neutral statement that's not critical that's just very simply i i am very curious and i wish there was more curiosity from you i welcome it in case you wondered if I would react negatively, just so you know, I welcome it.

I experience it as interest, as care, as depth, as something to bounce off of. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, I end up having conversations with evil voice because there's a whole chunk of conversations that we don't have. And if you've been together two and a half years, then hopefully the relationship is strong enough and it's an invitation.

It's not a criticism. Yeah, definitely. I think he would take that so well. He wouldn't take it as criticism at all. Does he know you're here? No. I've never thought of telling him about this because if I haven't acted on it, like if I haven't cheated on him, then why worry him? You know, like... Oh, but that's not why you're here.

I know. I know. But I just felt like I've never mentioned any of this to him because it's sort of like my internal battle. Yeah. But I didn't realize that it's like originating from his lack of curiosity. At least what you experienced as such. You can tell tell him I want to take on a little trip inside of me with you that also takes place inside of you and it's a trip we've never taken it's a conversation we've never had and then one day you'll play it to him and you'll say something to the effect of this is where i had the idea of having this little conversation alias trip with you

one day in the middle of the week I got on the phone with this woman. And we started talking. And one thing led to another. And I realized, I don't know if this is the whole thing, but this is a place to start. Yeah. I guess my concern with starting this conversation with him is that rather than being curious about the conversation and curious about how he can be more curious

i feel like he's going to just be defensive either yeah either be defensive or just accept that these are my thoughts about him and if I bring up the evil voice and if I tell him not necessary no okay not necessary no that and certainly not in the beginning but you could imagine that you say to him are you open if he says if he accepts and then you say do you have any idea how to be more curious with me or do you feel like you understand what i'm saying, but you have no idea where to begin? If it goes in that direction, then I could imagine you putting all over the house

little pieces of paper with questions on them. So when he opens the cabinet for the coffee mug, he has a question. And when he goes to the bathroom, on the mirror is a question. And when he goes to the laundry, there's a question. And it becomes a playful way of basically telling, you know, you put 25 questions that you would love for him one day to ask or questions you have for him.

But examples, expressions of curiosity. No, the evil voice, you don't have to. It's your voice. That's yours. You're still trying to figure it out. We basically began to think of it differently from how you've thought of it for the last two years and try to see if it's so's so relentless constant what's it really wanting from you and where does it connect to and what is it about and that is not a conversation

with him but one thing we know is that it is saying to you i want him more curious i want him to ask i don't want to just feel like I can live with somebody who will never notice. Yeah. Yeah. I want him to notice. There is power in the noticing. There is care. There is attention.

There is love. There is energy. I want more of his noticing. Definitely. I call it curiosity because it's a nice word to attach to it. And that's what you need when you go to talk to him. Yeah. I like that.

Okay. Is this a good place to stop? Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for you, for trusting me and bringing your question to me. As the session ends, I am left perplexed. She talks about fantasizing affairs, but affairs are erotic plots.

And I don't hear any of that in what she's trying to figure out for herself. I hear a completely different train of thought that has way more to do with the consequences of assault than it has to do with erotic fantasies of other lovers. And so I need to see her again. I feel the need to complete this conversation, to see where it goes. So I invited her for a second session and she accepted. And that second part will be released in a few days at the end of this week. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.