Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Part of Me Wants to Cheat Part Two

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

This episode contains discussions of a sexual trauma. Please take care listening. This is the second part of a special two part conversation. Certain conversations stay with Esther long after the caller has hung up. And in this case, Esther wanted to follow up and go further with the young woman with the voice inside her head telling her to cheat on her partner. But this evil voice is not her own. It is that of her assailant in a form of trauma reenactment. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this following session, we discuss sexual assault, and I want you to know this before you listen. If you haven't heard the first part of this session, I invite you to listen to it, as it will help you understand why I needed a part two and why I wanted to offer this young woman a part two to her most perplexing question. hi hi hi you didn't expect that we would talk so soon right i didn't no I'm excited because I I had you know some conversations last they stay with me when you hung up where you said oh I wish I had said this or asked about that um so that was my first thought is actually what did she walk away with I said so many things. We went into a very different direction, I think, than the one you thought we would go. So I wondered when evil voice, it still is the same name. Yes. When evil voice says, you can do this, you can hurt him, you can get away with it. Nobody will notice. In some way, it almost almost says I want him to feel what I felt

it's more even than him just being curious and asking me something it's almost like or one way he would understand something besides just the facts is if he felt what I felt. Yeah. To sort of challenge that, I feel like in my heart, I don't want to hurt him ever. And when you say like, I want him to feel what I felt, I don't know if that's exactly what I'm internalizing.

Please, tell me. These are just thoughts that went through my head that I wondered, but I absolutely don't think I'm right. So I like when you say, nah, doesn't fit. Please take it where it needs to go. I think it's more so like, I think those thoughts are challenging me as a person to like it's telling me like um so oh so you're in love

or you're in a serious relationship let's see how far my thoughts can go to make her mess that up. And it's like constantly like challenging me in a way to be the bad person. Kind of. And I don't know why they they're so constant in my mind. But yeah, that's sort of how I feel that these thoughts are. It's sort of like, oh, you think you're in a good spot right now? It's kind of like self-sabotage, but I'm constantly choosing to not sabotage myself.

Can I ask you, how did your family or your friends react? Um, when I asked my family member, cause this, this family member had, has been in a relationship for over 15 years. And so I asked him, Oh, do you ever get thoughts of cheating on your partner? And automatically, he was like, No, never. He said, Yeah, like when we argue, I'll be like, like, she's so annoying or something. But he's like, that's never crossed my mind and I I was like great I love that for you but for me it's like that's that's what happened like that's how I feel sometimes um and then my friends they've just told me like just don't tell him you know as long as you're not acting on it, just ignore those thoughts and let time pass by. Maybe it'll go away. Did you share with your family or your friends about the assault? Yes.

And how did they react to that? They were very empathetic. They were there when I needed them and I think they believe that I've moved on from that and so it hasn't been brought up in years now which I like because I don't want to bring it up constantly with friends and family but they they were very empathetic about it and they were there throughout the whole process you know I thought I had also first of all it's incredible that they were there and that they showed up for you but the other thing is between never bringing it up and constantly bringing it up, there's a bit of a gap.

Yeah. There's a space in between never and constantly. That means sometimes. But the thing that I stayed with was you could put the emphasis on the cheating and you could put the emphasis on the cheating and you could put the emphasis on the, nobody will ever know and I can get away with this, which I assume is what your assault person thought.

That they can get away with this. And that that's what he said to himself, nobody will notice and I can get away with it and so then i thought do you wonder how he got away with it and the voice because this is not a literal voice but it is setting you up for the same the emphasis is less on the act of what it is setting you up for the same. The emphasis is less on the act of what it is that you hear. Cheating is the secondary part. The bigger part is how does one get away with this? Yeah.

And nobody notices. Yeah. And a part of what you said about your boyfriend is you want him to notice more because sometimes when people don't acknowledge there is a bit of a subtle shaming and judgment yeah this is behind you which emphasizes even more that your assaultant gets away with it and nobody notices definitely yeah that's what stayed with me because this is a bit of a reenactment of trauma not a bit this is what we call trauma reenactment but this time in the role of the of the aggressor this time it's you're doing it almost to figure out how does one do such a thing and get away with it. And even voice keeps telling you that.

Yeah, definitely. I really resonate with that because my evil voice is saying, like, get away with cheating. You can do it. But I'm constantly having to choose to be a good person. And so it's like it's constantly, the voice is constantly challenging me. And constantly like, I'm still here. There's still a bad person inside of you. It's not a bad person.

It's so not a bad person. But it is the way that sometimes we reenact the trauma and it's hiddenness if you take it as she is egging you on to cheat then you're disconnecting it from what is the evil voice really saying to you you know it says he doesn't notice and when he doesn't notice us it brings back the feeling of what it was like that this assaultant could get away with this and nobody noticed it brings back the fact that in the not noticing and the not acknowledging what you went through there's a subtle shaming and judgment i would like for you not to take it as literal this is not about what this is the cheating is not literal you have no intention this is not i see you with desire for somebody else and turned on by other people and wanting to seduce and this and that you know i've heard people who are inclined

to transgress you don't sound like that you sound like someone who is working something true that is living inside of you and that is being awakened or reignited because you are with someone who doesn't acknowledge. Yeah. Not because he's mean, because he's probably thinking that he doesn't want to hurt you or make you feel bad, so he prefers not to ask. But in not asking, he emphasizes the hiddenness of it all. Yeah. And the hiddenness of it all is probably one of the most important parts of this traumatic

experience for you. You're the one for five years dealing with this afterwards. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. I actually talked to him yesterday about what we had discussed. And he... What did you say? So I told him that I love that he is understanding and accepting of me. But I wish that he was more curious about the process that I go through when it comes to problem solving or when it comes to emotion-based situations. And he doesn't really ask questions about that

or acknowledge that sometimes I'm struggling emotionally and he took it it was kind of rough at first because he took it as like I'm asking him to do something that's out of his nature he doesn't ask questions because he doesn't want to pick and probe the situation. And he told me, I feel like eventually I will figure it out. And he also said it's kind of unfair because he feels like with that conversation and what he took from it he feels like moving forward if we if i were to tell him something and he didn't ask me any questions that it's going to be a negative like mark on on his end and I'm going to get mad. And so I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

It's none of that. I just want you to realize that I'm an open book and I want you to truly know me and know the person, like how I became who I am now. And so I just told him as a note, just constantly be curious about me, you know, like, I know we've known each other for so long, but just continue with the curiosity, like how we were in our first date or second date. Um, and so it ended well, the conversation, I feel like he understood, he towards the

end understood what I was asking and what I would like. Um, but it was hard to get to that point because he was just understanding a completely different, um, thing that I was telling him. Yeah. So we'll see how it goes to, like, I don't know if he's actually going to be more curious. Do you have a feeling that he understood that unbeknownst to him, when he is not curious, it intensifies the feeling of hiddenness. You know, when our traumatic experiences are hidden, which then, of course, intensifies the shame,

it intensifies the isolation. The point is not to talk about it all the time the point is to know that if you want to you can and there's someone who will hear it because the act of sharing it is the no one will know, the I can damage you and just go on with my merry life. Yeah. That's why you call it evil voice because you call it a voice of vengeance, a voice that wants to react against that aspect of the experience. There are other parts that aspect of the experience. There are other parts that are so hurtful,

but this piece is what this voice has focused on. Yeah. I think that for so many years, I spent thinking about the assault. And now that I'm in a healthy relationship, I'm not thinking about the assault anymore. And subconsciously it is coming back to me in that way, for sure. You're clear on that now? Yeah. Yeah. Did you know it before?

No, no. I just thought that I am constantly letting my intrusive thoughts win and um this was just another intrusive thought that just wouldn't go away but now digging deep it does seem like I've thought about this one specific event in my life for so many years. And it's not just going to completely go away. It's going to manifest and morph into something different. It's one more dimension of this experience that I need to bring full circle. I am now able to be with a new partner. I'm able to connect, to falling in love,

to make love, to be loved, to be desired, all of the above. But I need that experience to find its place in the thread of my life. And if it becomes a hidden piece here, then in a way it keeps it alive, when in fact what I would like is to morph it into something else. So the intrusive thought is trying to accomplish something. It's saying there's one more thing you need here. But it's not about go ahead and cheat. It uses that script to deal with the hiddenness.

I just wanted to say that to you because it stayed with me. And I just thought, and I thought, maybe not at all. Maybe I'm just off. But the fact that you called it stayed with me and I just thought it may and I thought maybe not at all maybe I'm just off but the fact that you called it the evil voice you know there is an anger at him yeah for in a way under the guise of respect and I'm not intrusive and all of that, inviting silence. And in that silence, there is a bit of shaming and judgment. Which is one of the things when we have these types of traumatic experiences that really do become intrusive thoughts. Yeah. Is this helpful? Was it worth calling you back? Yes, that was, that was very helpful because

one thing I didn't understand in our last call was I do get the reason why I think that I can get away with, with quote unquote, with cheating. So that made perfect sense. But I didn't understand why cheating? Why not getting away with something else? Like, I don't know, binge eating or, you know, or something. Why does it have to go to something that is going to harm someone that I love? Because that's what the guy did to you. Yeah. You're not going to choose something that doesn't affect him. Your overeating doesn't really do a big,

does not a big issue for him. The cheating is the perfect metaphor for something that is secretive, that is hidden, that is hurtful, that involves sex. I mean, it's the right metaphor for doing something hurtful and then getting away with it. In this instance, it's not always that, just in the way that evil voice is using it. Yeah, it's something that would bring me shame if I were to cheat and that's exactly how I felt after the assault for

so many years is just shame and yeah that makes perfect sense to me. The conversation you had with him yesterday was just the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a process for sure. Could you imagine writing him a letter? Would he be more receptive? Definitely. Yeah. In a way, when you don't ask me anything, it's as if you're joining forces with the evil forces of assault and its hiddenness. I know you don't intend that. I know you have no idea that that's what is happening, but I think it's hiddenness. I know you don't intend that. I know you have no idea that that's what is happening, but I think it's important that you understand that. I love that. It seems as if you are joining forces with the secretness. Yes. Yeah. we are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us I think that in our first conversation, we got close, but we didn't get there all the way.

And I just thought, I can't let you just really think of this in literal sense, that this is about cheating and this is about being egged on to act poorly. I wanted you to really put it in the context of this traumatic event and how trauma often acts over time. And that is what you think is a negative intrusive thought is telling you there's something you have to pay attention to that is happening here that doesn't sit well with you but you don't allow yourself to know it um i do have a another question now that you summarize that

um so in the not knowing or not questioning and in that when it brings shame in a way and hiddenness how am I supposed to feel? I mean, obviously, you can't tell me how I'm supposed to feel, but in the silence, in the quietness, and in the shame, how do I get out of that? Because I feel like if I were to attack those, that feeling in the moment, it would stop evil voice from coming in later on. But it's not attack.

It's attend. Okay. You attend to these feelings. You don't attack these feelings. The goal is not to eradicate them with pesticides. Because if you do that, you're going to get more evil voices that are going to say, since you don't want to listen to me on this channel, let me bring out another channel that whispers in your ear. Yeah know i don't know to answer you specifically because i don't

know the nature of the assault the net you know the particular way that you experience the shame i can give you a generic but i think you are in therapy right yes yes i think that that's work that would be really helpful to do with your therapist, which is, it's, you know, what is the shame? What happens when it gets hidden? You know, I think you're the one who said earlier, I don't like to be angry or, you know, anger has a force in this. It can be a positive force.

It's an anger that fights for you. It's an anger that says this is not okay. It's an anger that looks to your boyfriend and says, you know, we don't have to go into the details of anything, but I do need you to not act in a way that makes me feel that I'm once again with someone who doesn't notice anything and gets away with it and reinforces that. Even though I know you're not doing this on purpose and you have no idea that this is even happening. Each of us comes with a story and this is a part of my story when you do that alone it's about allowing yourself to be angry to see the the wrong that was done the harm that was done to not think that what you call talk to

me about i'm over it over it is I'm able to continue living with it. But that doesn't mean I now put it in hiding. I now never bring it up. I now just say, done, closed, you know. Keys are on the lock. When it comes up, I sit with it for a moment. I say, what's happening? Why now?

Why this? What's it telling me? What does it need? Yeah, I like the repurposing anger to benefit me. And anger is there to be my ally, to fight for me. So I really like that. Did you know the person? I did.

This person was a longtime friend of mine. He knew my family. I knew his family. It was my 21st birthday. I was obviously rightfully blacked out drunk. He was supposed to be my DD. And yeah, he dropped me off at my apartment and decided now or never kind of thing. And he and I never talked about hooking up before that. I mean he was like a brother essentially. I knew him when when I was 10. Um yeah and haven't spoken to him since. It's been seven years since the assault? Nine now? Nine? Wait seven it's gonna be seven years actually no I can't do

math uh eight years in September yeah so it's gonna be eight years yeah um and in the beginning it was kind of like that where I asked myself, like, how did he get away with this? My friends were still his friends. I hung out with him once to see maybe I can with him and it's just I yeah and I mean now as an adult now go letting time um pass I have now chosen friends that choose me I have now like distanced myself from the people that decided to continue being friends with that person. Um, but yeah, it was definitely someone that I knew that was very, very close with. Mm-hmm. So there is also a huge betrayal. Yeah. The betrayal was, was very hard to get over. Thank you. Thank you.

I didn't mean to ask you. No, it's okay. But every one of these details make a difference. Yeah. Right? And the recovery of sexual assault, as my friend Holly Richmond says, is connection, control, and pleasure.

So you experience a reconnection and the freedom to connect again. You experience control not as in being in control but as in surrendering control voluntarily. There's no greater freedom than voluntary surrender. That's the opposite of an assault.

And then the reclaiming of pleasure. And I hope that you find your way to all of these. I'm definitely working my way there. But yeah, it's been a journey. What's incredible is that you went to meet him with the hopes that you could forgive him. Why? Why not first have him be accountable for his actions?

Yeah, 100%. I was naive. I was young. No, no. That's why the power of your anger, because it has a purpose. It's not just I'm angry. It's actually even more important than I had initially imagined. Because you were ready to run to forgive him without him experiencing any responsibility, blame, accountability, remorse, guilt, only when

people experience those things does forgiving have the meaning that it needs to have. It's very hard to forgive someone who is not taking responsibility for their actions that doesn't show remorse or guilt for hurting you this is true for him but this is also a message for you henceforward for the others we could go on yeah oh yes so I'm going to say goodbye to you right here and I'm looking forward to hearing from you yes you will you'll hear from me thank you so much Esther you're welcome bye This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.