Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - To Forgive My Ex-Husband I Need to Forgive Myself First

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Esther talks with a young divorcée about the challenges of co-parenting with her ex-husband while wrestling with feelings of anger and frustration. They explore the impact of her past traumas and the difficulties in communication that have led to this strained relationship and how to evolve for the sake of her kids. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello. Hi. Hi, hi. Shall we listen to your question first and then you can add anything that you say, should have added that, should have maybe mentioned this. Shall we start with the listening together? Let's do that, yeah. Okay, let's do that.

So my situation is me and my ex-husband, we decided to divorce four years ago. We have two kids together. Right now they're five and seven. Right after we decided to divorce, like the same week that we ever uttered that word, like we never said that word before, the same week he started into a very serious relationship with a woman. He eventually married and they're together now. He actually lived with me for six months while he was dating her. So after we decided to break up, they started dating and then he moved out of the house six months later. I think because of that, it created a dynamic in which the woman was inherently threatened

by me, like our marriage and their relationship essentially overlapped. It never gave me and my ex-husband an opportunity to kind of process our relationship and to start that healing journey. In addition to that, I have not been allowed to talk to my ex-husband. It's part of the rules that we, basically we can never privately communicate ever about anything, even about the kids. I just don't know how we're ever gonna heal for the kids. The all-new Acura ADX is a compact SUV crafted to take you where you need to go, without any compromises. With available Google built-in, all-wheel drive, and a 15-speaker bang and all-of-some premium sound system,

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Learn more at Acura.com. ["Dreams of a New World"] You seem to have stopped mid-sentence, so keep going. Well, when I hear that, first of all, I want to paint a more accurate picture of the beginning of their relationship, because in that clip, it sounds like he did something to me, and I don't feel that way. Our marriage was downhill for most of the time. And so, we had like a, it was never really used, but we had like an agreement where we would be open because we knew that, well, at the time,

we didn't admit that it was, that we didn't love each other. But at the time, it was just like I had had many babies and I didn't really feel like being intimate and I wasn't attracted to him at the time. And so I was like, you know, it's really okay if you wanna go be intimate with somebody else. It's really okay. It wasn't really okay with me, but I felt like that was gonna save our marriage.

I was fully okay with him dating someone new, but I wasn't fully okay with him just like abandoning our life together. Because we built a life and we decided to build a life. We got married. We had the kids by accident, the first one. We barely knew each other. And we got pregnant and we tried to make it work. We tried to decide to commit to each other and love each other. But it was never going to work and neither one of us wants to be with the other person right now and at the time, I think. So at the same time, we have two kids. That you are co-parenting?

I don't know if co-parenting is the correct term. Tell me your correct term. I saw something called like parallel parenting once and maybe that's what people would call it. But we have them approximately 50% each. We try to make it as equal as possible in the last year or so, but we don't communicate other than, what time are you bringing the kids over? But even too many details sharing is considered not by me, but by them interfering. Is it them plural and you singular?

I'm remarried and I have a baby also with my new partner. Okay. So it's them and them. Yeah. But my husband, my current husband has not been around in the picture as long as she has, and he stays out of it. He doesn't want to have anything to do with them, but he also is like, he's friendly, he's nice.

He's not like, he just doesn't want to think about them. But for me, I can't fully not think about them because I have to still engage with them as a parent. And how did this situation emerge that you are not having any permitted conversation? I mean, I'm understanding you meet this man, I don't know where you met him, but probably quite young. Is that accurate?

I was 25. And he? He's seven years older than me. Okay. So you meet a child is born that wasn't necessarily planned, but is welcomed. Yes, very. Very much welcomed. And the two adults decide to see if they can unite around this child. And they were parents before they were partners. They did things a little bit in a different order.

And then things seem to have gone well enough that you decided to have a second child together. She was on purpose, the second child. I did that intentionally. I wanted my first baby to have a sibling. And I saw my friend get pregnant and I said, oh, it's time. And you notified him or you just notified him after the fact? Oh, no, he knew we were having unprotected sex. And I think I said I want a baby, I'm not sure.

But when the baby happened, we were both not shocked. Wonderful. Okay. So baby number two is also warmly welcomed. And then you experience postpartum changes in your physicality, in your sexuality. And to make it very short, if I understood what you're saying, is I wasn't interested in him, but I didn't think I could deprive him, so I said to him, go find it elsewhere. Yes, mostly correct. Correct me. Make it accurate.

I blamed it on the postpartum changes. But in fact, I wasn't really interested in him anymore. And so I kind of said, since I'm not interested in you, go find someone else who's interested. But I didn't plan that that person would become his life partner. Well, not that first person. Okay. Okay. And how did it then develop into this silence? Okay. That's a complicated thing. That's why we're here, right?

Yes. The communication issues are definitely the thing. So if you turned it into a question, so we have a frame for our conversation, it would be what? How do I communicate with my ex-husband, my wife, my husband, my wife, my husband, my husband, my wife, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband,

my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my husband, my into a question so we have a frame for our conversation. Yeah. It would be what? How do I communicate with my ex-husband so that we have a positive relationship

and that all of our interactions result in net positive? I wanna have a positive relationship with my children's father. Okay, so continue. So explain to me what is the conundrum? Yes. Well, it's complicated. Yes. Because I'm sure if they told you the story, there would be a different interpretation. And I think that's the crux of the problem is that we just don't talk because I don't know what they're thinking. And then I have a conversation with them in my head,

but that's probably wrong. And then I probably think bad things about them. And then I make it worse. And I bet they do the same thing and they're doing the same thing together. Because your kids bring stuff home? No, no, it's not like that. They don't talk in front of the kids as much as I'm aware of. The kids, I'd say both sides are being pretty good about not airing everything in front of them, but they know that there's tension.

What they see is, to put it very simply, when he doesn't communicate with me, I get mad that he's not communicating. And then it becomes about me losing my temper and being mad, and then not about communicating. I know I should control myself and not get mad. Most of the time I don't, but when I do, I do. How do you do it? I yell. You'd say what to whom and how?

Well, it's changed. From the beginning, it was mostly through text. And I just said exactly how I felt with a tone that was like, you're doing something wrong to me. And then I realized that I was not making it possible for them to have a conversation with me. And I was not communicating in a way that benefited me because...

You let them down a path where they basically at some point decided she's off the wall, we can't talk to her, we just need to manage her and keep our boundaries up. Yeah. Because she flies off the handle. But I also think they throw it out of proportion. Okay. But one thing you just said that is really important is that you may be right, but that doesn't mean it's useful for you.

You're right. So the question is, how do I do this in a way that yields me what I'm actually looking for, because if I'm going to be right and alone or right and in silence, what good does that do? Yeah. And what you're also saying is controlling people who I think are doing wrong by me is important in my life? Um, yes. I think that is something that I have been recently aware.

But only recently. Tell me more. But only recently. Tell me more. I guess very young, I adopted an idea that... I mean, is it wrong that you're in control of your life? And if you are unhappy, you can change it. And if you identify the things that are wrong, you can change them.

But I think... Were you in a situation where you had to be the one to identify it? I don't understand. I'm sorry. If things are wrong, you can change it. Sometimes includes the fact that you were the one who had to notice that they were wrong. Who else is going to notice? Those who are meant to protect you when you're little. You're not supposed to go all the way. the way. I mean, I wasn't I didn't I didn't want to talk about this but um but I forgive these people. I really forgive them. And it wasn't that bad. I think I was just a dramatic kid. But yeah, I mean.

Hold on one moment. First of all, don't go where you don't want to go. Okay. But if you do, it's okay. I'm here with you. Okay. It's nothing I haven't said before to them so they know. It's like what I'm hearing is that when you get angry, you get angry like someone who is fighting for her life and someone who's fighting for her security and someone who's fighting for people who don't show up for you. It looks like you're talking about picking up the kids with your ex-husband or with your

co-parent or parallel parent, but in fact, you're going to a very different place. None of this is articulated, but it's viscerally felt in your body, which is why you feel like you're getting angry at a level that you don't feel you can control and that they think is out of control. But there are roots to this. It makes sense. I don't know what to say after that. It's okay. We can sit for a minute and just absorb this.

Oh. Yeah. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Bambas. Spring is a time for renewal, and you can start with your sock drawer by throwing away your old, threadbare socks and replacing them with a new pair from Bambas. They're designed to be comfortable all day, and Bambas offers head-to-toe comfort

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I don't know. So I'm just going to ask you in my language, if you fight to control people who are trying to do you wrong, What is he doing? That's a good question too. Man, I don't know. He definitely has trauma. I think one of his earliest memories is that, and I don't think he remembers,

but his mother decided to leave his father in the middle of the night and she took him with her when he was two. And when did he see his father again? I think not long after. He definitely lived with both of them growing up, but I think just the decision was very abrupt. So that happened to him. And I mean, other things have happened to him. I guess when I think about that though, and and he'll his mother got remarried and they kind of, I don't think they ever spoke fondly of each

other. Maybe they limited how much bad they said. I think the mother really regretted being with the father. And the father, I don't know, he's harder to read for me. Do you have active grandparents? So my parents are active grandparents because they live in the same area. His family all lives across the country. So they don't really know the kids. Not really. The reason I'm asking you this is also because you said before our relationship was going down pretty much from the moment it started. Yeah. And usually when that happens, there's a good chance that people are bringing certain vulnerabilities and wounds with them.

Yeah. That make being in a relationship very challenging for them? Yes, I would say we both started the relationship in turbulent moments. Okay. And a part of you is trying to put some of these pieces together at this moment. Every part of me is trying to put all these pieces back together at this moment. Why now? You know, I feel like I have a lot of potential to live a better life,

and to live a better life for my family, and make our lives just beautiful and good and however I can do that I want to I want to take the step. And your current husband he's on that path with you? Yeah he is he's great he's got a firm kindness. He's going to tell me what he's thinking, which I need. Sometimes what helps to put pieces together is when we know what it is that we tend to fight for. Not what we fight about, but what we fight for. Are we fighting for security, for control, for love, for attention? What are we fighting for?

And then, what's the story behind it? I don't like that I'm going say this but I'm gonna say it. I think sometimes I just want him to know that I'm hurt and so I tried to shame him into, I'm not sure if what I'm saying is totally accurate but I think this is this is a small part and sometimes true. So the most recent fight we had, and it's been a lot, is I was dropping them off, which I don't normally have to do. And I had emailed him a while ago, and one of our issues, he doesn't respond to my emails.

So I emailed him something important about tuition, and he never got back to me. And then when I tried to bring it up as I was dropping off the kids, we just blew up both of us. So he said, well, it's not fair, whatever. And I was trying to tell him how it is fair because it really is the right thing. It really is the fair thing if you compute all the numbers. But he and her both just, ultimately she said, I don't even know what I said, but she said to me, how dare you come to my house and talk to me like that?

And I wasn't even talking to her and I don't even know what I said. And I know I had lost my temper, but I don't remember saying anything like crazy or really bad or like I was just just upset about the tuition and then In this this is very fast. This is like one minute. Okay, and then I I don't even I was still talking I think and they closed the door and I was mad that they closed the door on me and I didn't say goodbye to My daughter and they it was a long they were planning to stay there for ten days they usually only stay there for three days, so I was like, I didn't get to hug her. And I was also mad about the tuition,

but I was more just mad at the way I was shut down. So I rung the doorbell like 10 times because I was afraid that they weren't gonna answer the door. I felt like they were gonna ignore me because they always ignore me. And then they brought my daughter out and I gave her a hug. But obviously I made a scene in front of my daughter now and I'm embarrassed and I think I did something wrong

and I know I did something wrong, but I also just feel so raw. And so I'm just hugging her, I'm just holding her, I have nothing to say to her. I have nothing to say, but I just don't wanna let her go. And I feel like, I just feel like I messed everything up. And then, and I was so mad too. I was so mad.

I'd never been so mad at them. Never so like, like I've been mad, but like just the way, I was like, I felt like I wrote, I reached like a breaking point that I never reached before. And then she went back in and then I went back to my car and I'm fuming and I'm upset and I'm just not in, I'm not comfortable in my skin. And I can't drive, I don't even know where to go. I don't know the directions without GPS. But then we were texting and I'm not supposed to privately text him ever. I'm never supposed to privately text him. That's against the rules. I'm supposed to group text.

But I privately texted him and I said, you are a coward because you let her treat me this way. And I don't remember what else I said, but I said, I said something to hurt him, you know? I think that's the point. I forget. You wanted to stick it to him so that he would feel some of the hurt that you were feeling? Yeah. And as my mom said, I think I wanted...

I said other things. Like I'm trying to appeal to his reason. I think that if I just tell him how he's being a jerk, he's going to know. Okay. How is that going? That doesn't work. I agree. Okay. So mom said that you wanted what? She thinks he's just an inherently unreasonable person and he has trouble understanding logic and how to treat people.

Yeah, but we don't need more ammunition about what's wrong with him. Yes, yes. Okay. I don't need more ammunition about what's wrong with him. Yes, yes. I don't. Okay, that's not helping you. And in effect, you were experiencing overwhelm and dysregulation and shame for what you had just done and experienced. And you wanted to fire back the same material onto him. And so you're not going to get much out of him by shaming him like you were not getting

much from you. And they were not getting much from you by shaming you. And so now my question to you is this, when you lose it, what does it mean? You feel humiliated, you feel that they are excluding you, making fun of you, denying you. What actually happens? Because anger is the manifestation, but the feeling is more layered. So there's two parts to that, right? There's what's happening inside me, in my emotion, and then what do I think I'm losing?

Like what am I losing in myself and what am I losing in the relationship? And in myself, I feel like I'm letting myself down. I mean, I know that that's, I think in my life, like it's like the thing I've tried to change the most about me. Is? Is to not get mad at other people when I'm unhappy. When something is difficult, when I'm frustrated,

I think I take the blame out on the world around me and the people that are closest to me. And if you put that voice outside for a moment, the one that blames others, holds them responsible, attacks them, and you put it aside for a moment, then what? And there is no space. Then what's the thing that then comes up?

Then I'm hurting people I love, and I don't want to do that. I don't ever want to hurt somebody. I know what it feels like to be hurt, and I don't want to hurt anybody. And I'm hurting people. But nobody is born blaming others. That's something we learn. Yes. And sometimes for good reasons, or at least understandable circumstances that contribute to it.

And then we take this strategy, this adaptive strategy, and we begin to apply it to all kinds of other people when it's not necessarily that justified anymore. Right. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astair's office hours on Apple Podcasts. It's been reported that one in four people experience sensory sensitivities, making everyday experiences like a trip to the dentist especially difficult. that one in four people experience sensory sensitivities, making everyday experiences

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I think that might be generational. I mean, my parents don't have a good relationship. I mean, they don't have a terrible relationship now, but I've never heard my mom say something nice about my dad. Well, not never. I've never heard my mom say something nice about my dad. Well, not never, but most of the time, no. And I definitely heard that girl, like her regular way of being with my father is to yell at him or like say he did something wrong.

Maybe I just copied it or listen, I saw her perspective because she wasn't wrong in the things she said but I think she was also unfair sometimes. But my father, like I didn't really have trouble with my mother growing up. I had trouble with my father. So I definitely listened to her. What kind of trouble? Um, well, the biggest thing was that he scared me. Um, like I was really afraid of him. And of him and he gave me reason to be afraid of him. He never hurt me but he did threaten me to the point where I was terrified and he did put his hands on me sometimes, but I mean, like once he threw me into a wall, but I was okay. And once he pushed me into the street where there's like a huge, like it's like a highway, like six lanes kind of thing. And he probably looked to make sure there was no cars, but I didn't feel that when I was pushed as a little kid into the street. And he said a lot of times that he would kill me.

And I saw him, I don't really wanna say all these things, but I also do wanna say them. I just don't want, I don't really want to say all these things, but I also do want to say them. I just don't want, I don't want him to hear because I really have forgiven him. Listen, you don't have to neither justify nor excuse. OK, nor trivialize nor relativize. But I also want to say that I...

I hear you. I understand that he never wanted to hurt me or him, because he never did. And on top of that, I hear you. And I hear how much you're trying to not have this define your whole relationship with him. But it did define some of your nervous system. It did define some of your coping strategies.

And it did define how some things happen to you when you get extremely mad. And you get extremely mad when you feel that you are being pushed aside. Yeah, that might be even a separate thing. We can't touch on all of the things. So I'm going to go back to your question, because there's so many things we could really address here. But your original question, which is, what can I do to change the stalemate, this gridlock that I'm experiencing with the father of my children and his new partner, his new wife. Can I do something for this to change?

And it's not going to be a one thing fits all. Right. This is going to be a process where I need to gradually change and convince them that I am changing. Yeah. Why? Because I want it to be different. And I should remember that and that's my North Star. Even if they think we know it all along,

even if they think we will always, whatever they think, it's irrelevant because what matters is that I want to establish a different rapport. Okay. Yeah. I don to establish a different rapport. Okay. Yeah. I don't have to be right. No. You want to be smart. You're going to be wise.

You don't have to be right. And wise is to simply say it's in the benefit of our little kiddos for the two of us or the three of us or the four of us to be able to communicate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And not to escalate immediately. I hope I can do that. You're not going to be able to do it instantly and it's not going to transform magically. Yeah. So at first, you're actually not going to say anything to them, you're going to act

differently. The communication will change somewhat when you... Can I... Yeah. That's always been part of the issue and I know I just have to accept this part of the issue. I never have an opportunity to be around them or to communicate with them,

like a one-line text message or an email that's... Most emails that I try to talk about this kind of stuff don't get responded to. They don't have to. They don't have to. You will simply say when something is done nicely, you will say, this was very kind, this was very nice, this suits them really well, this was very special for them, wanted to share my appreciation for that. You do not need answers. This is

non-contingent. Okay. I understand what you're saying. I did that actually this New Year's. Mm-hmm. And I have to not be upset that they didn't say anything back because I already know they're not going to say anything back. No, the person who's going to say something back is you. You're just going to say back to yourself, that's how I wanted to be or to act and I'm glad I did it and I appreciate my gesture.

Yeah. This is who I want to be. This is not to show them anything. Okay. This is who I want to be so I can broaden my repertoire. I understand. This is, interestingly, I change how I am and then the communication will improve. Rather than I say things to them, I hope that they instantly respond to me because I did one new gesture.

Because by now they're trained. They anticipate much of what comes from you to be negative. Yeah, and I'm very aware of that. A little bit like your dad with your mom. Who am I? Well, anything that he does, she will criticize. Oh, I'm my dad and they're my mom. No.

Oh, both then. Interchangeable roles here, you see. I'm going to let you guess who is who. Your communication to them is much of the time negative. You're right. Their communication with you is not to respond so as not to escalate. Because they don't anticipate that if they say anything, your response will not be upping the ante.

So what you call they don't respond to me is most of the time they're trying to just not engage. Yeah. Because they don't anticipate any much positive coming from you. Man, that hurts. I mean, not, not, I mean, it hurts not they're hurting me. I mean, I see, I see, I see what I've done is what I mean. Meaning what I say hurts you.

Yeah, but I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, no, I'm not hurting you. But I understand what you're saying. It hurts to know that that's what's happening. But it's also good to know because I, um, I have been, I know I'm, I know I was doing something wrong. You know, I'm going to change the language for a moment. Okay. Because interestingly, I don't have a sense that you came here today to bad mouth anybody. No. Not your mom, not your dad, not your ex,

not your co-parent, nobody. I have a feeling that you came here today to say, I'm stuck. I know I contribute to this. I can't change them, but I want to at least change some of what I do. I want to broaden the repertoire. Yeah. I can do better.

Yeah, exactly. And I hear that broaden the repertoire. Yeah. I can do better. Yeah, exactly. And I hear that loud and clear. You want your sense of agency back. You want to feel like you're not trapped in neither are they. Yeah. Or did I just touch? Oh my God. I think that's part of it is that I guess I've been using the wrong language

to describe it sometimes in that I think they think I'm like a bad person. And maybe that's because I think I'm a bad person. But it's just, it's validating the right word. It's nice to be seen that my intentions are good, but I've just not realized how I've how I've Convinced them that I'm off sometimes. Yeah, I convinced them. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And convince them that. Yes, yes. And you need help, by the way.

This is not so easy to do all alone. So you may need professional help so that somebody guides you. I think you're full of honesty. Basically, you're telling me, I know I'm doing something that lands me in the place where I don't want to be. And I can't control don't want to be. And I can't control it, so to speak. I can't contain it.

It bursts out of me and it flies everywhere. And fundamentally, they probably by now see me as someone who is erratic and explosive and angry and all they try to do is keep me on minimum heat. Yeah. So you're not going to do this for them. You're not going to do this to change their mind of you and their opinion of you. That will come afterwards. You're going to do this because you're saying to yourself, some of the

things I need to look at, I need to get some insight about, and I need to see if I can change how I behave. Yeah, it's interesting and funny because I didn't always feel this way about myself, but when I look in the mirror, I just feel like that's like a angry, unhappy person. And I don't wanna be that person. Like I physically see that about me and I wanna change. It'll be different for your kids too. And you seem to have a partner who can also help you with some of it. Yes. I mean, it's the kids that...

That's... I didn't talk about my kids, but the kids are, I mean, the kids are why everything. The kids are why I'm even talking to him still. I mean, I want them to grow and just be happy, not like me, not like me right now. I want them to live better. So you have a plan. You have a plan, you have a mission. It will take time. I just want to be very clear. This is not a one-time flip like that.

And it demands guidance and it demands insight because there's a lot of dots to connect here. We just name them and we kind of strewn them around. But it needs more careful consideration. And it needs you to learn to breathe, to calm down, to regulate yourself so that you don't feel like you're being hijacked on the spot. When people feel helpless, they become explosive and mad, and they lose control in an attempt to gain control. The piece of this is to give yourself a moment before you react to ask yourself, how do I want to react? It's to create that little space in between, between reaction

or action and reaction. Yeah. I feel this in every aspect of my life. Every interaction, every conversation I have with somebody, even just when I'm cooking, like when I'm by myself. And that may be that you first go into your body and you make room inside physically with breath and with stretch just so that it lands somewhere rather than that it reverberates on you. Yeah.

I know we touched on a lot of different things that are away from the question that you came in with, but I hope that you will connect the dots. I really appreciate the conversation. It's not what I thought it was going to go. And it's better because I was actually reluctant to come on here because I was afraid I was going to go backwards by kind of saying, oh, he does this and this, I don't like this. And I know that's not the direction I want to go. So I really appreciate that. We took it. We took it all the way back. Good. That voice of he does this, he does that, he does this wrong, you know that voice. You need

a different one. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very, very much. And find help. Find some version of help. I will. Thank you. Okay. You're welcome. Bye-bye. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, and it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and

The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.