Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - Will He Make The Space For Me

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

Her new boyfriend’s wife died four years ago. Reminders of her are all over his house, from her clothes in the closet to her photos on the wall. It makes the caller feel uncomfortable and inadequate. She wonders if there’s room in his house — or his heart — for her. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every season for Where Should We Begin, I receive thousands of applicants. And one of the most frustrating things is that I'm only going to be able to see 10 couples. And I've been grappling with this. How can I connect with more of you? There are so many powerful questions, so many pain points that I would like to be able to at least address with you, even if shortly. So this series is going to be different. It's you calling me with a very precise question, with your pain point, me calling you back. And together we think out loud and we go from where should we begin to where can you start.

Hello, Esther. I am speaking to you from Buenos Aires, Argentina in South America. I am divorced. I'm 48 years old. And early this year in January, I met a wonderful man who is 59, a widower. The thing is that his wife passed away about four years ago and neither he nor his daughters I think have dealt with a lot of the stuff that belonged to her and I and I find that a little spooky and it it disturbs me how do you manage this in a caring and sensitive way and and at the same time in a way that is intelligent and practical.

Hello? Hi, hi, it's Esther. Oh, Esther, that's your voice. That is me. Hello, hello. Salut. Salut, salut. En français, en anglais, en espagnol. C'est comme vous voulez. No, in English. It will do it in English. Are you comfortable doing it in English? Yes, I'm fine. Thank you. Great. Great. Ask your question. I've recently met a wonderful man. I'm spending more than half of the week at his place after about 15 years of living on my own. And since we've been talking about the possibility of moving in together,

we were very happy about the prospect of living together. I had a talk with him recently. I was very direct and I said, this makes me uncomfortable. I don't know what to do about photographs and objects. And if I moved in with you, I wouldn't want such a heavy presence of the past. And his response was? He was moved and also uncomfortable but he didn't respond in an action-oriented way, say, okay, I'll do this or that, or why don't we, or perhaps give me some time and I will. So I didn't hear any of that. He said he understood.

And it's been four years since his wife passed, and I think there's still a great deal of attachment. Yes, why shouldn't there be? And are there other people in the house? No, his youngest daughter, who's in her early 30s, moved out of the house about a year ago to live with her boyfriend. Do you wonder if he has mourned the death of his wife in such a way that there is room in his heart, in his life for you? Or do you wonder what will be the slow transition by which I started with one evening here and there, it's become half the week, and at some point I must get a drawer, and I'll start to put my stuff in there, and I'll have a shelf in the bathroom,

and then slowly, if we talk about moving in, the closets will have to be cleared, and that will be a major ritual of transition for him. But my question to you is, is it pictures? Is it remnants, memories about her? Or is it all her clothes are in the closets as if she's about to come home any minute? I wouldn't say the house is a shrine. There are two levels. And so on the first floor, there's a opened a closet or a box but there are some clothing items that are out in the open and that is it makes me quite uncomfortable and even mentioning that to him and and i did try to speak with um sensitivity and I try to be delicate about it, but at the same time I notice my own reaction is of great discomfort.

And the discomfort is what? Tell me, what is the thing inside of you that you wouldn't necessarily say to him, but it's what? Will I reach that level? Will I be loved like that? Am I enough? I know that under this, there are many questions about my own worthiness, my own worthiness. And in occupying a space, it's also, it's very symbolic of occupying a space in someone else's heart as well, I think. Did you say that to him? I did talk about me because when I said that I had had a similar experience in some way when I moved in with my husband, my ex-husband, when I moved into a home that was already decorated and in that home, there we have made space for me, for some of my clothes. And I brought a

lot of stuff for the kitchen because we love to cook together. So there are some really positive steps, I think, that we've already taken together. But what I just told you about room in his heart, I just realized, you know, saying it to you and it's wonderful. And I think he would really appreciate hearing that. It's a different conversation. It's a conversation in which you're not talking about the items, but you, and it's too, you know, anyone who meets someone who has had a deep love and a loss that they didn't choose at some point may feel sometimes, will I ever be loved like this? These are very normal questions. You know, will I compete with this woman forever?

You know, is the first one always the last one at some level? What is the love that he has for me and how different is it from the way he loved her? And then your own questions about yourself. Am I lovable? Am I lovable enough? Can I be enough? All these questions that many of us live with

because love is super vulnerable and terrifying. And if you actually don't talk about the clothes and the items and the pictures and anything, you just simply talk about what it feels like to be a woman who comes after a deeply beloved woman who died. I have that. And you talk about you, then you give him the opportunity to reassure you, to tell you whatever he feels, to, you know, to tell you you're the first person who's actually been in this room since, you you're the first person who's actually been in this room since, or you're the first one who's actually been here as much as you've been

here. I never have thought about starting all over since, but since I met you, it's different. Don't, you know, there is room in my heart for two, et cetera, et cetera. You sound like you've been the fly on the wall in this home, because those are the things more or less word by word that he has told me. He's incredibly sweet and very sensitive for a man in this culture where I live. I mean, he's very open and sensitive, and he does communicate quite well and openly. And so he did say all of that. And I am the first woman in about four years that has slept in this house and stayed here and that he has introduced to his family.

So I know that I am important to him. I do. I know that you am important to him. I do. I know that you are important to him. I don't know that you feel important enough. That's a different, you see, the interesting thing is that one way to be sure, to feel chosen and to feel wanted is to be in the circumstances that you're in.

And it's about believing him. He's doing the right thing. And at some point, you know, you can always say, of course you want pictures of her, but maybe not next to our bed. At some point, it becomes a new bed, you know, for a new relationship. But this is not the peace. The peace is really getting... How many months has it been?

We met in early January. Okay. So that's not long at all. And as you are getting more intimate with him, and as you're feeling more open and more vulnerable, your fears are coming back. The fears that you didn't allow much in for the past 15 years that you lived on your own.

And that's the piece. The piece is not him and his ex and his previous wife etc it's really the focus is you're getting deeper involved with him and some of those fears about how lovable

am I how sustainable is it am I enough can I capture somebody's attention for as much as I want etc those are coming back up. And they could come up regardless of the deceased wife. They have to do with the degree to which you're feeling more and more intimate with him and you develop a deeper relationship. They don't have to do with the fact that there was another person before you, but that just

adds something to the plot. Right. And it's a normal feeling, by the way. It's the development of the trajectory of a heart that opens up. And for that matter, he may have some of the same fears and vulnerabilities and worries. Because I think that they kind of come when we fall in love. Because they open us up. Yes, of course. Of course. Of course.

Also, what's coming up for me, Esther, is am I able to build a home with him, a different home? He was married for many years and I wasn't, so I feel like I'm less experienced, although I'm in my late 40s. So that's also some big piece of my self-doubt, I think. Now that I'm talking this over with you more and more, it's kind of opening up and I feel perhaps it's also about homemaking and nesting.

So how are you doing in the kitchen? We are a great team in the kitchen. It's the same metaphor. What is happening in the kitchen will expand to other rooms. He's not interested necessarily in having an extension of the life he had before. He is rediscovering, you know, once you have loved deeply, you can love again. And you're that person, and it's moving at a beautiful pace.

He doesn't have to respond to you immediately after your conversation. He just heard you, but you do need to go back to him, Mm-hmm. He doesn't have to respond to you immediately after your conversation. He just heard you. But you do need to go back to him, switching the lens. The lens has to move from him and the presence of the wife in the house to you and what you're feeling as you're getting more and more attached to him. He would really appreciate that and i i could i could imagine him even tearing up if i spoke from the heart from my own perspective i'm he would appreciate that that's it that's your uh starting point yeah thank you the turning point is what's underneath the items. And underneath the items is my vulnerability.

And once you bring him into that, he will, you know, you will have a different conversation. Thank you. Okay. Thanks a lot. Yes. Oh, I appreciate you so much thank you you're welcome bye so i'm looking for many ways to stay connected with you

as i continue to help you develop greater confidence and competence in your relationships. This time, it comes in the form of a game. Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories is a game that helps you connect and reconnect, deal with the social atrophy that so many of us have experienced, and unlock the storyteller within. So gather your partner, your friends, or your date. Grab a seat, pull a card, and be my guest in sharing the stories that you rarely tell. Let's play along. estherperel.com slash the game. Thank you.