Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Esther Calling - You Are So Not Invited to My Wedding

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Imagine meeting the love of your life at work. And a few months in, you want to keep the guy but ditch the job. Which is fine—until your fiancé wants to invite your evil ex-boss to the wedding. In this Esther Calling a young woman seeks advice from Esther on how to handle the conflict arising with her fiancé and his decision to invite her former abusive boss to their wedding. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In terms of my question, ultimately the core of the question is about understanding and working through resentment and anger towards my previous employer. It's been two years since I've left her and I'm now working for a wonderful company where I'm very happy. However, my fiancé is still working for her and is still 100% loyal towards her despite witnessing her psychological abuse towards me for almost two years. Fast forward to 2024, this has become a major point of conflict as he insists that she, my previous tormentor, for lack of a better word, attends our wedding as a courtesy to her. As much as I try to forget and move on from the way that she treated me. My feelings of anger are just as intense

as they were two years ago. I would just like to understand why I have so many lingering feelings, why my fiance chooses to be loyal toward her over me, and why I keep questioning what happened and my own sanity. Transcribed by — through the magic of AI. Get yours with TELUS at telus.com slash pixel9pro. On Criminal, we bring you true crime stories told by the people who know them best.

Like the story of a man who tried to hunt down a ghost in 1803. He fired his gun at it and at that point he saw the ghost collapse in a heap. A couple that bought a haunted house. I closed my eyes, pulled the covers up,

and the next thing I know, somebody's sitting on my feet. And a woman who was tried for witchcraft in the 1940s. And I said, I doubt that my grandmother is a threat to national security. She's been dead for so many years. I'm Phoebe Judge. Listen to Criminal on Amazon Music. Okay. And the reason you're coming to me today is because this wedding is imminent?

Yes, it's coming up within the next few months. And this really seems to be the last point of conflict between myself and my fiancé. Although I've left this woman, this previous employer, two years ago, it still feels like yesterday, and I'm not really understanding why he would still insist that this person attends one of the most important days of our lives. And as I listen to you, I don't know if the question is about what happened between this previous

employer and me, what am I carrying from this relationship, or if the focus is my boyfriend is loyal to someone, that someone could be a previous employer, but it could be an ex, or it could be a friend of ours, it could be a third entity. And I feel that he is more invested in protecting that relationship than standing up for me. And it's a loyalty dilemma more than an employer dilemma. I think it's the first part of what you had mentioned, because to be honest, I believe that I wouldn't have such a dilemma with loyalty if I myself could just let it go. And I'm not sure, because I'd like to think I have enough self-introspection, enough to let it go and to move on. But I keep lying to myself about it. I keep thinking I'm not angry anymore.

But if I hear this person's name or I bump into someone that this person is related to, it's feelings really of fury. And I just don't understand why. What happened? Tell me a little more what happened that this pierced through you to the extent that it has so yeah such a long story i'll try and keep it condensed but basically um so i had met this really wonderful french man in in back in South Africa and um we of course we fell in love and he needed to go back to Europe at the time so with me and all of my perhaps overestimation of my confidence I decided to show up at his employer's home and ask her for a job so that I may also go.

And I went in, I sort of sold my skills to her and she said yes. So I think, of course, at that time was very vulnerable. And just sort of from that point on, I was kind of at her disposal, you know, and she treated me very much as though I constantly owed her something. It was a lot of manipulation and threatening, and I felt somewhat like a slave. And it was a very confusing time because she really much tried to play the sort of motherly role, but the professional boundaries were constantly being crossed so at one moment she would say oh come to me let's talk about your family let's talk about all these sort of personal things and then the next moment she would use that against me and so basically it

was just a lot of like psychological back and forth and it was really just like a slow breakdown of my confidence because I started to question my own sanity very much she'd say one thing and then do another and then do one thing and say another and made it very clear that I should be grateful that I'm even there that there was always just this looming threat of being sent back and you were especially chosen for this yes I mean she didn't do this I mean, she didn't do this with your boyfriend. She didn't do this with others. You were the special target. This is what's really fascinating and a point of conflict. So he is very highly valued in her company. So we were almost in a way a package deal but I was speaking with some other colleagues and I was definitely not the only one who was being treated this way but it was definitely

much more extreme toward me I feel perhaps she felt that she was taking more risks with me and yeah oh so this is the point of conflict really is that her treatment of him and her treatment of me was very different and very separate and I think I've also realized that there is sort of an underlying theme of women bullying me in the workplace at school and I very much wonder if it's something that I do to provoke women especially in an authoritative position that make them treat me so harshly. Say more. So I just, to be honest, I know this is not a very trendy opinion, but anyone that's ever bullied me in my life has always been a woman.

And I don't know if there's something about me that intimidates them. My mother and I have a wonderful relationship. She's my best friend. there's something about me that intimidates them my mother and I have a wonderful relationship she's my best friend she's never treated me this way perhaps I just expected everyone else to treat me the way my mom treated me but yeah women just don't like me despite me wanting to please them so much or that's what they sense. They sense that you want to please them very much, and then they basically abuse it and misuse it. Yeah. And exploit it.

And any predator needs a prey. And predators are good at finding prey. And prey are often good at trusting predators. Not always. But sometimes there's something inspiring about her, there's a desire to want to please her, there's a desire to want to prove yourself to her. And when you're mistreated,

to think, I just need to try harder. I'll do it again. I'll do it better. Maybe next time she'll approve because she may give you intermittent reinforcement. Sometimes she approves and sometimes not. So you think, but last time it worked. So maybe I should try this again. And basically you enter into a form of psychological coercive control with this person. And fascinating that we always end up asking ourselves, what's wrong with me?

That I find myself in that situation. You know, a good con artist who cons a person leaves them wondering so much of the time what's wrong with me rather than, you know, being very clear on what is off in the conning itself, you know? So, but you see, I've been in a situation like this before. This is not my first interaction with a certain kind of woman who I want to be appreciated by, who I find myself in a very dependent position because you were very vulnerable, dependent. She probably had your working visa,

et cetera, et cetera, right? Yes, exactly. So this is a built-in vulnerability it's not just internally to you it's internal to the relationship and to the situation so what when you say i've been there but it's not my mom it's not in my family but it's something i recognize i somehow have been supervised and managed by other female authority figures with whom something, what's the word you use when you describe it? I would say that I have a very low tolerance of any person that is unable to control themselves emotionally. And a lot of the time, this has been women in my life. Anyone that behaves one moment in one second

and then completely different the next second, I have almost no ability to cope with this change. And I always feel that I need to keep myself together and keep myself collected because it's not appropriate to lose your mind and to behave this way. And yes, I just have no tolerance for this sort of manic behavior. And coming back to what you were saying about the cohesive control that's exactly what it was it was you're praising me one moment and then I'm terrible the next moment and then praising me and then being awful and this sort of back and forth and I'm angry with myself because I can see it for what it is I'm not stupid I can see it for what it is. I'm not stupid. I can see what's happening, but I just still am incapable of cutting myself off from that

and from being neutral. And I just want to figure out how I can stop having this affect me so much. And when you say it affects me, it's what? I'm angry at myself. I don't understand it. I'm curious. I lack the compassion.

I am ashamed. What is the relationship with yourself in response to this very difficult, hurtful, crazy-making situation? If somebody left you starving, you would say, I'm hungry. And you wouldn't say, what's wrong with me that I'm hungry because I haven't eaten in days. But when someone starves you and gorges you psychologically, in and out, in and out, up and down, up and down, then you don't experience this as situational, but you personalize it. Yes, I do. I think it's almost as though I lose all focus.

I'm so overwhelmed by this person's emotions and their back and forth. I can't focus. I feel like, oh, I need to fix this situation. Why is she treating me this way I've done a b and c where did this it's just a total distraction from the task at hand I feel physically ill I feel like I'm being blindsided where did this come from I've done all the steps I did everything I was supposed to do and now I need to fix something I don't know that I've broken I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do now so I think this is just overwhelming feeling of confusion and feeling like I suppose I failed at what the task was at hand and therefore

I'm not valuable I suppose confusion and perfection Yeah, perhaps a mixture of both. As in, I do things really, really well? I don't give up? I deliver perfection? I don't think I deliver perfection, but I try my very best. And if things had gone differently, what do you imagine when you retrace and replay the tape? Do you think, I should have what? What's the thing that hangs over you? I should have stood up for myself. And done what? And verbalized the way I was thinking and feeling and not just lying,

rolling over and taking it. I just kept my mouth shut and carried on working. And I think perhaps that's why there's still so much resentment is because I had, I thought I was stronger than this. I thought I would be able to stand up for myself since things like this have happened to me so many times already. I should be practiced by now. I've had this conversation in my mind so many times. And why didn't I just stand up for myself? And I would have said?

I would have said plainly things as they are. That your behavior is this one moment, this the next moment, I can't keep up with this. I'm feeling as though you're taking advantage of me and you're holding a visa over my head. You're completely suffocating me with your micromanagement and breaking down my confidence each and every day. And if I entered her role and you tell me if it resembles anything, I could imagine saying, but given what you've told me about your friends or your family, I'm not surprised that that's how you feel because you have a tendency towards paranoia. And I am not at all putting you down and I'm not at all micromanaging. It's just that you made mistakes and I had to intervene.

I mean, I'm not going to let you just do things wrongly. I think you are seeing things that are not really there. And when they're there, it's because they're called for. Yeah, what do I say to that? Is that... Because that sounds logical. Yes, it does. What I'm saying is sometimes we think we want to talk to people

and tell them what's up, as if that's going to make them actually acknowledge our version of reality. Did you leave or did she made you go? I left. It took me a long time to get there. And I left with the help of a German psychiatrist, actually, who helped me to build up some courage to leave her. I felt completely trapped.

I felt like I had to be loyal to her. Like it would be this big slap in the face, this big betrayal. And what did he or she or they help you with? What did they say that allowed to break the spell? And the kind of power that you had imbued in this person. On the one hand, they put me down. And on the other hand, I experienced them as if I can't leave them because they won't succeed without me. Exactly. So it was actually really fascinating because it was completely the opposite of what I thought I needed to hear at this time. So of course, I'm in Germany and I'm intimidated. I don't really speak the language very well, but I was so hysterical all the time and I couldn't focus and I was crying constantly.

And it's like, I need to do something. I can't carry on like this. I need to go speak to someone. I need, I don't know, medication. I need to calm down so that I can come up with a plan. And so I showed up at this man's office and he laughed at me. And he said, we're going to have some sessions. I'll make sure your insurance and everything's worked out and we can talk about what's going on here. And when I explained to him the examples, all very, you know, sort of black and white scenarios of things that were happening, he laughed. And he said that you are a slave that gets sugar cubes every once in a while. And this stuck with me.

And he just bluntly told me exactly what the situation looked like from outside. And I think I just needed that validation of, okay, so I'm not making all of this up in my mind. This is actually happening, right? And he helped me come up with a practical plan to get out of the situation and apply for other jobs and see what my other options were. But I just needed someone to tell me that it is bad enough to leave.

And each time this has happened, you find yourself unable to hold on to your grip of reality. Because I'm hearing very loud and clear, I needed him to ascertain for me that what I was describing was actually real, that it was true, that it wasn't just a figment of my imagination, that it wasn't just an expression of my weakness, that it actually was a coercive situation in which what he calls the sugar cube, I call the intermittent reinforcement,

you know, just enough to build you up and then put you down so that you come back to me to build you up again, because otherwise you're going to stay down. It's a phenomenal, but very common power trip, you know, control trip. So when he validated you and he said this is a shit show and you gotta get out of there yes basically yeah and then what did you do i listened to what i was told okay you took his authority instead of hers exactly i'm realizing that now You followed his command rather than her command, but you like to be commanded. Yes. That's actually very interesting. And you are angry as hell

and you don't know how to express it because part of you has a fantasy of once and for all be able to tell her what you think and be angry with her and let it out. And so what ends up happening is you end up having contempt for yourself. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes. Your group photos are likely

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husband. Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for you at babbel.com slash Esther. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Esther, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash Esther. Rules and restrictions may apply. So now you have a wedding coming. Yes. So what's the opportunity here? I don't know. Do you want her not to come? Do you want her there and you tell her off?

Do you want him to not invite her? What's your favorite outcome? I would just like her not to be there because so many personal boundaries were crossed and I just feel that a wedding celebration is extremely personal and I don't want to let her back into that bubble again whatsoever like I just want a very clear distance the other thing is shortly after I had left she had said some quite rude or let's say she had a bit of a nerve point. She basically had insulted my upbringing and basically said that my parents didn't raise me right and all of this. And she's going to meet the parents that raised me so terribly.

You know, she's's gonna meet them and I I just I I just don't see I feel like I'll be distracted on on this day and it won't be about me it will be about trying to avoid her and how adamant is your boyfriend about it very he says he can't not invite her he's worked for her all all of these years and she's his business partner so on and so forth and are you able to have a conversation we have had many conversations but he just seems to sort of shut down he doesn't really want to deal with the conflict and this is also something why i um why I'm so happy in our relationship is his level of emotional stability he's not up and down whatsoever he's extremely stable and I

find this very secure so I think that with this situation it's difficult for him to really be brutally honest about how he feels. It just, the conversation gets to a point and then it just sort of stops. And there's no really resolution. Neither of us want to push too hard, I suppose, and possibly upset the other, I'm not sure. I'm trying to be accommodating. I'm trying to not make it just about me.

I'm trying to put myself in his shoes and understand how he must feel. And I know that this is complicated for him. And it's a different relationship that he has with her than what I had with her. I don't want to make his life difficult. I just really don't want her to be there. That's all it is.

I don't feel like that's such a big sacrifice. That's what you're telling him? him yes I've said that to him and then he answers you I have no choice I must etc so each of you basically keeps on repeating and reinforcing your own positions and nobody really crosses the street to go and see what's it like on the other side I've had moments where I'm like okay well, well, maybe I'll think about it. I'll consider it. At times I've been trying to cross the street, like you've said, and trying to just be like, okay, I need to just put my own issues aside and suck it up.

But I haven't seen him ever say, okay, well, let me just think about it a little bit more, or maybe we can come up with a different solution has he ever had a conversation with her about what happened he works with her or for her yeah for her um briefly i know some some weeks ago you know i think at some point she had said to him, oh, I think we should just address the elephant in the room. You know, and that is your fiance and her like having no contact with me for two years. And she wanted to apologize to me, but I didn't trust myself enough to receive it because I felt as though I'll just be like, OK, it's OK. I forgive you. I'll be polite. I just, I know that's my default.

I know that's my, you know, just say the right thing, I suppose. And I didn't want to do that. So I just completely avoided it. You know, if she's aware that there's an elephant in the room, you can tell her, I understood that you would like

to clear the elephant in the room. And if you want to speak, and since you're going to be attending my wedding, I think it may be a good moment to do so. And then you let her speak. And then you don't respond necessarily. You just take it in, you hear it, you'll see if it satisfies you or not. She probably will have a completely different view of reality. She's probably going to put everything on you. You should just be prepared.

At best, if you want, you can try and you can just say something. Depends what you want, right? Depends if you want to tell her you mistreated me and get that acknowledged. Or if you want to tell I'm upset with myself that I allowed you to mistreat me and that you want to tell, I'm upset with myself that I allowed you to mistreat me and that you want to have acknowledged. Or if you kind of want to say, you know, I would like to find a way to get over this so that you don't remain a presence in my husband. But the other thing is that it feels like I'm in some loyalty bind. And that I would like to have cleared before. So you have to find your reason why you would reach out, what you would want to hear from her. What's the outcome that you're seeking?

And if speaking to her is the way to go for that, or if it's speaking with your boyfriend, that is a way to go. Do you get from him an acknowledgement of what happened? Is he able to actually see the situation for what it was? Or does he kind of join you into the what's wrong with your submissive tendencies and your inability to put limits no he really will not acknowledge what happened it's as though you know i should have just handled myself better i uh and she didn't treat him this way so it's not really i suppose relevant to him which is but do think, however, I've noticed he's got a much higher tolerance for emotionally unstable people in his life.

If I look at his upbringing. So I kind of think that he's just used to this behavior from someone. And to him, it's not a big deal. But that's not the issue. you're not the same people he doesn't have to have the same experience as you but he needs to be able to recognize what the experience was that you had it's not because i feel the same thing that i understand it it's because i am able to reach outside of myself and see you, that I understand it. Exactly. And I've said to him before, like, you know what? I just want you to say, yes, it was shitty. She was shitty. The situation was shitty. You were taken advantage of.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Like, you know, just say something, you know just say something you know just some sort of acknowledgement but again why do i actually need that from him if i can trust my own viewpoints and my own sanity why do i need his sort of validation of what happened i know what happened you know what would Mm-hmm. What would you say? See, one way is to say, he can handle unstable women, you know, or emotional women, or more volatile women. I may even be one of them. And he's my stability.

And I like this. The other version is, you know, maybe he takes it too much. And I have a different sensor. And she may not have acted with me the way she acts with him because she responds to the reactions that she gets and we did not react in the same way. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I do wonder when you say his reactions were different,

what's interesting is I think that he's even more of a people pleaser than I am, even more so wanting to keep also just sort of taking it, you know, and not pushing back ever. And perhaps that's why they worked together well, because there's just no resistance and perhaps she could sense more of a resistance from me. Mm-hmm. I don't know.

Yes, that's the flip side of the way you've always described it. Yeah. Yes, I think it's very wise thinking. The question is a good one. What it looks like isn't necessarily what it is. Yeah, I'm realizing that now. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about.

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Visit squarespace.com slash Esther for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. But I'm left with the question, is this a triangular situation, you, him, her? Is this a dyadic situation, you, her? Or is this a dyadic situation, you, him? And we could add, or is it a him, her? What is the geography of conflict? So if I look at process of elimination, I would say that it's not just him-me.

I think that it is, perhaps it is even him-her-me. I would say that's the issue of the dynamic. And maybe I would say the conflict is probably more between her and myself. He's more of a bystander. He's trying to be neutral, but I don't think he can be neutral? If two people, imagine two siblings and a parent, I mean, there's so many other triangles that you can try out just as a tangential to see what you can learn from them that may or may not be able to be applicable here. Right? One person finds the relationship with the authority figure challenging, controlling,

dispiriting, deflating. The other has a coping style that looks like nothing gets to them or indeed nothing gets to them because they act in such a way that makes it sure that to prevent anything ever getting to them. Yeah, you basically just described exactly the two of us, myself and my partner, towards the authoritative figure in this case, which would have been her. Okay. Then you finally extricate yourself. And then it looks like, you know, she doesn't do this with him or he's more able to handle it or he's more stable.

I am unstable. I mean, a lot of labels are thrown here when in fact you may have been more reactive and opposing and and aware and sensitive to this this is off he doesn't even have to get there because he manages to do things in such a way that she cannot even reproach him. So if you think it was stressful for you and not for him, I would invite you to imagine that perhaps the stress for him is so much bigger, but he also has gotten so much training for such kind of relationships that he's not even aware how stressful it is. Yeah, I'm actually, I'm sure that that is true. He's just so composed and manages to mask his stress much better than I do.

Right. So when you say, I want you to see what happened to me, I want you to acknowledge it. What you're actually also asking him is for him to acknowledge what it's doing to him. Yes, yes. And that's why you're not getting the acknowledgement that you want. Yes, that's exactly it. He just doesn't say anything about it. And I know that she's treating him.

I've seen the emails that she's written to him and I've seen it, but there's no reaction. And then I feel like I'm kind of crazy because why am I reacting this way and you're not reacting at all? Because you actually had the training that said, this is off. And he may have had a training where this was part of mother's milk or father's milk, who cares? Whoever the surrounding was. Yeah, that makes sense. So do you have any sort of advice on how I can make him feel like

he could speak to me about the response from his side or do I just let it go? At this point, he won't tell you if ever he experiences something because he doesn't think you can be neutral. He will experience you as finding ammunition for your cause yes i can see that so for that to happen you would have to be done with this story yeah and where it enters the chest of bad memories of relationships you wished had never been. But they were challenging. It took you a while to get out. But you acted well. You found the help you needed. You knew you needed somebody to help you extricate yourself.

You knew you needed a validation of reality and steps of how to do it. And you did it. Yes. I think this is why, if I'm circling back to the original question is to be honest I got myself out of the situation I work for an incredible company I work only with men I work with engineers and never thought I would enjoy this kind of job but I've my living situation has vastly improved like I tri I basically tripled my salary. I have wonderful colleagues.

I'm the happiest I've ever been at work. I'm motivated. I've got a very stable manager who treats me very well. A lot of trust and transparency between us. I've never experienced this before. Yet there's still this lingering anger about it. It doesn't make sense to me because everything's great now. I should be over this.

I shouldn't care anymore. I don't understand why I still do. And what's your thought? How do you answer your own question when you ask yourself? I don't, I feel like it must be, am I seeking validation? Do I, or am I seeking just for someone to tell me that I wasn't crazy, that everything did happen? But you've had that. You've had that.

You had that. I have. So why can't I, yeah, so why can't I just let it go? Like, I don't know. What is it that I have someone so why can't I yeah so why can't I just let it go like I don't know what is it that I'm looking for I mean is it something I just need to get out of my system at some point I felt like I was constantly talking about the situation it's like I became obsessed with it because I almost wonder if he could also just acknowledge what had happened that it would be easier for me to just let it go yeah i see that as well if he was able to say you really suffered there that was a real struggle you tried your best to please her and she constantly kept her thumb on you she played with your confidence she belittled you yeah i mean she mocked me she embarrassed me in front

of people it was awful and i think that confidence is really the worst part um feeling like because i consider my i mean if you think about where the story started i had all the confidence in the world just showing up at her home like that like it's quite a bold move i would say and from that level to being completely shattered within 18 months i feel like i'm not the same person. But now I'm going to your boyfriend. Because this is a conversation between you and him. I'm curious. What, you know, what stands in the way of your being able to recognize my experience, mine is different from you.

Somehow, because you can manage it that disqualifies everything i described and i find that interesting so as we are getting married one of the challenges we're going to have in life is how we have two different experiences of the same reality yes i think that's it sounds like him it's i feel like this must be exactly what what's been going on in his mind is if i could keep it together why couldn't you keep it together yeah and the question is not about keeping it together maybe actually the fact that I didn't keep it together is a very important skill that I wish you would develop. Yes, to want better for yourself and to not just lay over and take it. Because this may happen again in the future, you know. So this is the preparation for the wedding it's less about is she going to be there or not and it's more about how are the two of you going to create a relationship that makes

space for differentiated experiences yeah she's very useful for this yeah this has been a major hurdle. We can learn a lot from the situation. Yeah. What is helpful in what we talked about? I think I thought I could put myself in his shoes, but after you'd explained sort of what must be going on in his mind, I feel like I have a lot more empathy for him

and I can improve on the way that I'm expressing myself. And maybe it is more of an us issue than a me and her issue. I'm looking for his validation i think perhaps more than than i realized and maybe it's you who need to give him some yeah do you want to try and let me know yes i would love to i'd love to you to take from here put it to practice and then let me know and then we can tweak it. Thank you so much and thank you for sharing your question. I think you're not the first person who extricated herself from an entanglement with a boss or manager with whom they had the most debilitating experience. And who thinks that the people who can take it

are more stable and more solid. I think that that demands revisiting. Yeah, this is a major eye-opening statement for me. So try it. Good luck to you and come back to me. Okay, thank you, Esther. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like

to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller,

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